Latest / Virginia Outdoor Adventures: Hiking, Camping, Kayaking, Local Travel and more! / Beyond Hiking in Shenandoah National Park: Climbing, Cascading, Navigation, & Survival Skills with Andy Nichols, Shenandoah Mountain Guides (Ep 92, Part 2)

Transcript

Beyond Hiking in Shenandoah National Park: Climbing, Cascading, Navigation, & Survival Skills with Andy Nichols, Shenandoah Mountain Guides (Ep 92, Part 2) · Virginia Outdoor Adventures: Hiking, Camping, Kayaking, Local Travel and more!

• 1:18
  From the Blue Ridge Mountains to the Chesapeake Bay, Virginia is a mecca for outdoor travel and adventure. Virginia Outdoor Adventures podcast is your local guide for hiking, camping, kayaking, travel, and so much more. Get the information and the inspiration to plan your own adventure right here in Virginia, I'm your host Jessica Bowser. When you think about Shenandoah National Park, you probably picture scenic overlooks, waterfalls, and miles of hiking trails. But what if there's another side of Shenandoah waiting to be explored, and you don't have to stick to the trail to find it?
• 1:57
  Think rock climbing high above the Shenandoah Valley, rappelling down waterfalls, scrambling through mountain streams, navigating with the map and compass, and learning the skills you need when the unexpected happens. That's exactly what we're getting into today with mountain guide Andy Nichols, owner of Shenandoah Mountain Guides. Andy has spent decades helping people get beyond their comfort zones and experience the Blue Ridge in some pretty incredible ways.
• 2:23
  These unique adventures may be unlike anything you've ever done in Virginia. So whether you're an experienced adventurer looking for your next challenge, or you're ready to learn some new skills and become more confident outdoors, this episode is going to give you plenty of inspiration to get outside and discover just how much more there is to experience in Shenandoah National Park. Let's go! This is part two of a two-part episode. We're going to move on to the last section, which is about survival skills, and I get requests for this all the time, so I'm really glad that we're talking about survival skills and what to do if things go wrong. So your survival course has a phrase that I really like. You call it turning the what if into the now what. So what does that mean to you?
• 3:14
  It's a basic outdoor skills course, is what it is. You know, it's planning, learning how to plan and prepare for those what if situations, and once you find yourself in that situation, what are you going to do now? Too many survival courses are all into well, let's let's hunt ourselves a rabbit and skin it, and then we'll make some clothes out of the fur, and then we'll build a shelter, and then build a fire, and that's way too complicated. That's not what people really need to know. The big thing is preparing yourself mentally before you get into a situation where now you've got to think.
• 3:48
  What are the most common situations that can turn an ordinary hike into an emergency?
• 3:53
  Injury is a big one. Weather changing really quickly. Another one is a loss of situational awareness. You're outside and you're just having a great time.
• 4:00
  You you took the map in Compass Class and you're just walking around looking, being all of a sudden, crap! What did Andy say?
• 4:05
  You know, all of a sudden you start sitting there, and instead of panicking, you need to just sort of sit down. We always say,"Papa, wild cherry lifesaver! You know, get a lifesaver in your mouth. Give yourself some, you know, some sugar, and say, okay, now what's going on here?
• 4:22
  Let's let's think about this rationally. If we panic and run around with our, you know, like a chicken with its head cut off, as my mother used to say, nobody gains from that. We we can solve this problem pretty simply if we have gone about our our task of preparing ourselves mentally, physically, and to a certain extent, materially as well.
• 4:40
  Yeah, and I hope you don't mind if I go back to Old Rag Mountain Stewards again because I know you're so proud of that group.
• 4:46
  But also, I just think that they provide such a wonderful service to the park. When I attended that training, I remember them saying that most people set off to hike Old Rag. They don't plan to sprain an ankle, or to become dehydrated, or to have some other emergency situation come up. So, would your survival skills training help in those situations?
• 5:08
  Yeah, definitely. You know, because again, it goes back to be prepared. Going back to the Boy Scout thing, always be prepared. Think about what you're doing beforehand, and it doesn't take a long time. Just let's let's look at the weather forecast. Let's think. Okay, it's supposed to be 100 degrees.
• 5:22
  Well, maybe I should take a little extra water, or maybe I should take a little salty snack, or maybe I should think about if my if I haven't been hiking before, maybe I should do some walking before I just show up on old rag. Everybody, as we get older, we forget that we don't have the same skills that we had as a kid. If you set off and say, "Okay, we're gonna we're gonna set off when I say go and we're gonna run, I guarantee you, 50% of adults are gonna fall onto the ground because they've forgotten that they need to move their feet fast when they lean their bodies forward. They have to move their feet to keep up with them. As our bodies change, especially in this region where a lot of people work in office jobs and stuff during the week. You know, think about preparing just a little bit more and just tuning in just a little bit more to where you really are physically and your capabilities.
• 6:09
  Yeah, I see that happening with a lot of my friends. Frankly, you know, we've gotten to the age where we we don't realize we're starting to age now. And things just don't work the way they used to, and we assume that we can hike 15 miles in a in a day, and it's no big deal. And then you get partway through it, and you're like, "Oh, maybe it's time to turn around.
• 6:30
  It's funny. A friend of mine set out to do the CNO canal in a day on his bike the other year, and he's probably a few years younger than I am, but not a whole lot. And after about three or four hours, man, he said he was done. I was like, you know, you need to train a little bit before you just sit out to bike the CNO Canal in a day. You know, yeah, you'd do it probably when you were younger and biking a lot, but just coming out of your office job, it's not going to work.
• 6:52
  What should people carry with them on every outdoor adventure?
• 6:55
  The most important thing is what they've got in their head.
• 6:59
  They've got the 10 essentials.
• 6:59
  You've got this. You've got that. To me, you need to think about the things that are going to end your life the fastest.
• 7:04
  You know, in this situation, for the most part, it's the rule of three. Is you can you know you're going to have plenty of oxygen. You know, to breathe.
• 7:11
  Hopefully, unless you've fallen into the water, you can live for three minutes without oxygen a little bit more. You can live for three days without water. So water's definitely on there, but you can live for three weeks without food. You don't need to worry about food, but you need to think about always what's going to cause your demise first. You know what's going to kill you first. It could be the weather, it could be dehydration, it could be falling off a rock, it could be all sorts of things, and you prepare yourself that way just by doing your homework in advance a little bit and preparing yourself mentally for that. If I know that I'm going in a canyon with Andy to go cascading, well, by God, I'm going to think about you know thinking about good footwear for sure, for sure, anything like that.
• 7:53
  Just just mentally prepare yourself. That's the most important thing.
• 7:59
  Let's talk a moment about water because that's a big one. What should someone do if they unexpectedly run out of drinking water?
• 8:06
  Well, it depends on where you are. If you're in a really bad spot and all you've got is a mud puddle, and you're all by yourself and you're way, way out there, if you don't do what you can to you know clean it up as you can, but if you don't drink it, you know you're still going to die. And you can you can treat giardia, you can treat diseases, but they can't treat death. So again, the best thing to do is to repair. Look at where you're going in advance.
• 8:33
  Are you going to have streams?
• 8:36
  Are you going to have springs, and if there are, then you need to take things so that you can make that water potable. If not, be prepared to drink raw water, which is again, it's going to keep you alive. But preparation is the key.
• 8:50
  Now, what about emergency fire?
• 8:50
  Because I think a lot of people, when they hear survival skills, this is one of the first things they think of. But how important is it to know how to make a fire?
• 9:00
  It's a good skill to have. I would say it's not. It's not one of the not one of the top skills. But once you have a fire, just like with Tom Hanks, you know, I've got fire. You've got to come. You're not. You're no longer surviving. You're camping, you know, because you have a method by which you can stay warm. You've got a method by which you can treat water.
• 9:22
  You've got a method by which you can signal. I mean, if you build a fire in a wilderness area someplace, you're going to wind up inside with three meals a day because you're going to go to jail.
• 9:33
  That's right.
• 9:35
  But no, you're going to be found. So fire is kind of a good skill, but you know all these other you know organizations say we're going to teach you how to build a shelter and this and that, and you know then we're going to catch and skin a squirrel. Seriously, that's not shelter. Is nice you need to be protected from the weather, but it doesn't need to be building you know this bushcraft you know log cabin or stone cabin, and and increasingly in Shenandoah, in the backcountry, they're seeing people do those things, which is bordering on vandalism, because not it's just not necessary.
• 10:09
  Well, and it's not leave no trace either.
• 10:11
  Not leave no trace.
• 10:12
  Yeah, and I've always wondered about the skinning a rabbit and building a shelter and all that.
• 10:15
  Like, where are you going to come up with the time with the energy for that?
• 10:19
  Well, and that's the thing-you've got an energy budget. You know, if you're out there and you don't have food, the more energy that you put into that, the hungrier you're going to get. And now, instead of three weeks you can live without food, you're going to get really hungry and really grouchy, and you're going to say, "Man, I'm going to eat those shoes. I'm going to eat my clothes. I'm going to eat those worms. You know, don't go there.
• 10:36
  It's just ridiculous.
• 10:40
  Yeah, the whole idea is survival is a lazy person's game. The less energy you expend, the less energy you need, and you know you're going to be expending energy just to stay warm.
• 10:50
  Right, and those are all very extreme situations. I think for most hikers, they don't need to know what to do in those extreme situations? They just need to know what to do if something goes wrong on their hike.
• 11:01
  Get through the next 24 hours, 48 hours at the worst. Make sure somebody knows where you're going, and make sure you've got plans made so that if you're not back in time, somebody can say,"Well, I'm going to call somebody and say we need to, you know, get a search going because this person's way." Do they were in this area, and especially in Shenandoah. You know, Shenandoah National Park is only like five miles wide. You know, you start heading downhill, and you're going to end up in somebody's backyard, or somebody's apple orchard, or you know, whatever.
• 11:30
  You're going to be there.
• 11:31
  And I think the most important thing is letting people know where you're going to be, and that's the one thing that a lot of people neglect to do.
• 11:39
  I've been guilty of that, but not too much anymore. I always say, "Okay, I'm going to follow a flight plan. Here's where I am. Here's where I should be if I'm not back by this time. You know, expect this. Here's what I'm going to have with me, so
• 11:51
  that people will know: Am I prepared for the night? Am I not prepared for the night? What am I going to have? Along with that, the people that I'm with.
• 11:56
  that people will know: How many people, and when I when I'm taking people out, I'm the one responsible for that. So I need to make sure that I know everything about these people, and make sure that they are preparing themselves as well before climbing and before cascading. That's part of what we do. Make sure that we have everything that we're going to need.
• 12:16
  that people will know: Imagine taking in expansive views of the Shenandoah Valley, hiking to one of the few remaining fire towers east of the Mississippi, or walking in the footsteps of thru hikers along the Appalachian Trail. Now lace up your hiking boots and head to Harrisonburg, an ideal base camp for your next outdoor adventure. You can spend the morning hiking scenic trails, the afternoon exploring downtown and the evening enjoying an incredible local food scene, from epic mountain views and outdoor adventures to locally owned restaurants, breweries, shops, arts, and culture.
• 12:47
  that people will know: There's plenty to keep you busy and plenty of reasons to come back. Whether you're looking for a weekend getaway, a new hiking destination, or a place to base yourself while exploring the valley, Harrisonburg has something for you. It's no wonder Harrisonburg is friendly by nature. In the newest episode of the Virginia's Adventure Town series, I'm taking you to Harrisonburg to explore 10 scenic hikes, plus the best places to stay, eat, and explore while you're there. Listen to the new Harrisonburg episode in your podcast feed, or click on Visit Harrisonburg in your show notes to start planning your next adventure in the friendly city. What do people tend to overpack for emergencies, and what do they tend to leave behind?
• 13:34
  that people will know: There's two schools of thought.
• 13:34
  that people will know: One school of thought is you buy or you carry with you one piece of equipment that can do three or four things. The other school of thought I call it the RAS school of thought. Well, you buy a piece of equipment and then when that goes bad you have to have a backup and then a backup for the backup. So they're selling three things to do one skill. I tend to prefer to get really good something you know whatever that might be. It might be a knife or a you know who knows what a widget, and have it serve three or four purposes.
• 14:03
  that people will know: That way, I'm not carrying a ton of weight with me. This should not be a burdensome activity.
• 14:06
  that people will know: Preparing myself should not be burdensome. It should be something that I do, and I can carry it with me wherever I go.
• 14:13
  that people will know: If I'm getting out of the car just for a quick hike, I can carry it with me, or if I'm going for a long a long trip, I can carry it with me. Every single one of my packs, whether it's my climbing pack, my backpacking pack, my cascading pack, it all has different gear in there that I can use for different things, and it stays permanently packed.
• 14:30
  that people will know: I am the same way. My pack is permanently packed with the 10 essentials and everything else that I need. And I oftentimes see myself hiking, and I'm the only person with a pack my size, and everybody else has some packs.
• 14:42
  that people will know: Yeah, or not even a real pack, but just like some sort of a bag on their back, or nothing at all. I was hiking once and saw some guy with just a pair of shorts on, and he was carrying a gallon of water in one hand, and that was all he had with them, and I, I just sort of like I, I don't, I scratch my head a little bit because I don't understand. Are they not concerned about what might happen, or that they might need something else?
• 15:08
  that people will know: Again, that goes with experience. You know, a lot of novices will think, well, I don't need this, and then on the other end of the spectrum, a lot of very experienced people will say, I don't need this, and I tend to go out and again part of the mental preparation is I look at a list or I look at what I'm doing and I say, well, is it better to have it and not need it or is it better to need it and not have it? I tend to a lot of times I've got stuff in my backpacking pack, stuff that I've never used, but the minute I need it, I'm going to be really damn glad I've got it on my climbing pack. I've got all kinds of crazy stuff in there.
• 15:43
  that people will know: Again, when it comes time to need it, I'm really glad I've got it. I carry probably three or four, you know, beanie stocking caps in my climbing pack. We've had days where it's gotten really cold, and and I've got I've outfitted everybody with stocking caps, just because I've got them, you know, all of a sudden you become a rock star.
• 16:02
  that people will know: You're like, wow, okay, cool.
• 16:04
  that people will know: Oh yeah, everybody's thrilled when the thing they really wish they had, somebody else has for them. Yeah, I'm the type that tends to overpack, or maybe not overpack, but make sure that I have all of the things all the time, and so my pack is definitely had. Than what I see most people carrying, but you know the the big trend now is people are walking and running and hiking with these weighted vests on. And when I first saw that, I was like, "Huh, I've been the OG in carrying a weighted pack all these years, and I don't need to go out and buy you know some sand filled pack or whatever because I've been carrying my pack like that for years.
• 16:39
  that people will know: Well, I tend to go. I tend to go on the light side of things for the most part. But again, everything I've got has three or four purposes.
• 16:45
  that people will know: How can learning survival skills actually make people more confident rather than more fearful?
• 16:51
  that people will know: Because it frees you up. We learn the principles behind them. We talk about them. We do this. We do that. But then we go out and we practice them and we use them. We do have one day classes and we have two day classes and we have three day classes. And I got to tell you, with three day classes, I started those when my sons were Boy Scouts and I was a scout leader, and we would get these 13 year old boys together on a Friday evening. We just head out into the mountain behind the house, and we'd be out there for the whole weekend just with whatever we happen to bring, and all of a sudden these kids are coming back on Sunday, ready to kick butt and take names because they realize that you know this is very doable. You know, just being a little bit aware and not you know not having tents or anything like that, but just you know maybe a trash bag or something, just amazing stuff.
• 17:32
  that people will know: But it makes your whole experience. It takes a burden off of your shoulders, so that again, so that you can you're going into the woods to embrace creation, and you're going into the woods to practice the stewardship concept and say,"Wow, this is amazing for me. I want it to be amazing for the next generation and whoever I'm with by learning some basic skills of just how to prepare yourself-it just turns the whole thing into just a burden off of your shoulders and lets you embrace the entire experience.
• 18:07
  that people will know: And on that note, if you could give every Virginia hiker one piece of outdoor safety advice, what would it be?
• 18:14
  that people will know: Do your homework in advance. You know, look at the weather. Look at where you're going. Read the map. Read the read the footnotes. You know, find out as much as you can, and then go and drink it in and say, Ah, this is what they were talking about.
• 18:28
  that people will know: It's Virginia. I got to tell you, Virginia's. You know, being a Virginian for 250 years, my family, you know, original settlers, and I'm like, this is the coolest state in the world.
• 18:41
  that people will know: Few activities bring you closer to nature and your family, like camping. It's the perfect escape from the hustle and bustle of everyday life. Imagine waking up in a Virginia state park, surrounded by towering trees, breathing in fresh air, and spending your days swimming, hiking, canoeing, or tubing. At night, you'll gaze at a sky filled with countless stars you'd never see in the city. And after all that adventure, you're sure to work up an appetite, cook delicious meals over the campfire, and don't forget the s'mores fixings for a sweet ending to your day. 29 state parks throughout Virginia offer camping with a total of more than 1,800 campsites, reservations are recommended, and it's best to reserve a site as early as possible. Or maybe a cozy cabin is more your vibe.
• 19:28
  that people will know: Virginia state parks provide comfortable and economical overnight accommodations. There are nearly 300 furnished climate control cabins of various sizes throughout the state. Many cabins are available year-round.
• 19:39
  that people will know: If you want to get away from the hustle and bustle of modern-day life, you can't beat a Virginia state park. Reserve your cabin or campsite by clicking on Virginia State Parks in your show notes. Andy, we're going to tie all of these themes together: adventure plus skills plus confidence. So you've introduced people to climbing, cascading, navigation, and survival skills. What do you think these experiences teach people beyond the specific activity?
• 20:11
  that people will know: They teach them about themselves in this whole magical realm of creation, because creation is something that I don't even have the right words. It just totally fails me. It's just so miraculous when you start looking at the ecosystems and how everything has evolved over time. And I'm looking out at the sun setting on the mountain as I'm doing this, the alpenglow.
• 20:33
  that people will know: And it's just it's one of those things that I want everybody to feel like they can just wrap in their arms and give it a bear hug, and then back away from it and say, "Ah, I just did that.
• 20:43
  that people will know: Do you think that people see Shenandoah differently after they've learned to navigate it, or climb it, or travel through the streams?
• 20:52
  that people will know: In all honesty, yes, people learn to see Shenandoah differently once they step outside of their car and walk through big meadows and look at the ecosystems there and how all of this works together. I mean, just get out from your car and dare to step off the trail, dare to step off the main road. Bilbo Baggins, I think, says who knows where we might be swept off to.
• 21:14
  that people will know: So it's pretty cool. Dare to do that.
• 21:16
  that people will know: What's something about the mountains that you wish more people understood?
• 21:21
  that people will know: Don't take it for granted. These mountains at one time were owned by people. The mountains now are owned by every single American.
• 21:28
  that people will know: We should not even consider for a nanosecond privatizing these resources again, or being told how they need to be developed, or why should they be developed?
• 21:36
  that people will know: Yes, I believe in forest stewardship and all that sort of good stuff. But I think we really need to be aware of the fact that these are truly gifts, and we should treat them like gifts.
• 21:49
  that people will know: If someone has one weekend in Shenandoah and wants to learn something new, where should they begin?
• 21:55
  that people will know: I would start by going. In all honesty, I would go to Big Meadows, and walk around Big Meadows. Call me for an interpretive hike around Big Meadows. Oh my gosh, to see those ecosystems and the history-that is a upland wetland. That's been an upland wetland for 12,000 years. Dolly Sods. Everybody thinks upland wetlands in this area. Dolly Sods. Dolly Sods is great, but Dolly Sods was forested until about 200 years ago. Big Meadows has been a meadow for 12,000 years. That's pretty damn awesome.
• 22:28
  that people will know: That's amazing when you really think about it. It's a long, long time, and Big Meadows is absolutely my favorite place in the park. I think I was just talking about this in an episode over the summer, because I had been up there in July, and I talked about how it is maybe the most underrated part of the park. People come for the views and the overlooks and the waterfalls and you know all the different features, but they overlook what I think is the most beautiful part of the park.
• 22:53
  that people will know: The adventures in Big Meadows are of the micro scale. You get down on your hands and knees, and you look at those tiny little mosses, and those mosses are breaking down rock 24 hours a day, and they have been, you know, since time began. They're breaking down rock and creating soil, and then you go down and you look at the ferns, and you look at the the mafic fin, which is the wetland in the middle, and you look at the plant communities and the fact that you know you've got plants there. This is the only one of the only places they grow in the in the lower 48. I use the word magical a lot. It's so magical when you take the time to go out and look. I mean, really look.
• 23:31
  that people will know: It's true. You you do have to really pay attention and you start to see how many different types of wildflowers and plants and everything interacting and working together, and you've got wildlife moving through there all the time. And then when the sun goes down, the stars are just incredible.
• 23:48
  that people will know: Right. Always tell people we do a series of twilight hikes in the in the summer up there, and always tell people is I'm the luckiest guy in the world to lead these hikes because every two weeks, the meadow changes color. You know, dominant flowers change. You know, from your early season goldens, from the golden ragwort to the flap poisons, the whites to the violets of the of the milkweeds, and then back to you know the woodland sunflower, and and then you've got the berries, and you've got the wild strawberries and the huckleberries and the blueberries and the dewberries and the blackberries and then you have the apples. You know the apples. Gosh, no place in the Lowlands this year has apples because it frosted down here. They grew apples up in the mountains because the cold air would sink. The apple trees up in Shenandoah are absolutely laden with apples this year, the blossoms didn't freeze like they did in the lowlands. Truly amazing! It's oh, there's there's the magic. I know it's so hard to describe to somebody how magical it really is. And now that we're talking about it, I've got a trip coming up in in two days out of state, and I'm ready to cancel it and go to Shenandoah instead. I feel like I missed the place already.
• 25:01
  that people will know: After all these years of guiding people through the mountains, what still gets you excited about going outside?
• 25:09
  that people will know: I'm 70 years old. I'm still traipsing up and down the mountains with 20 year olds and stuff. I want to do this the day I die. I've got people tomorrow.
• 25:14
  that people will know: I'm taking hiking, and they're from Texas or someplace. I had a woman here last week from Ethiopia. I have people from all over the world come and to to talk about this, and for them just to have their eyes just open. It's like you know somebody's peeled away the scales from their eyes because this is real life. This is some story on a book or on TV or something other. This is real life, and to see that connection between ecosystems occur, between you know the exposure or the fresh cool air or whatever it is, to see that I can't tell you how wonderful that is for me, and you know I experience it all over again through them.
• 25:57
  that people will know: I've got goosebumps just now thinking about it.
• 25:59
  that people will know: Do you want to tell people where they can learn more about Shenandoah Mountain Guides?
• 26:04
  that people will know: I mean, they can look it up, Shenandoah Mountain Guide.com.
• 26:07
  that people will know: But everything we do, I mean, we have these people from Ethiopia come word of mouth. So I mean, it's better that way. I don't.
• 26:14
  that people will know: I'm not an advertiser. I never have. No, you definitely are not. I know you were like, I don't need, I don't need to come on your podcast for more for more business. I'm good.
• 26:25
  that people will know: I mean, I'm honored. I'm thrilled. But I mean, I just want to share passion. I just that's all I care about is sharing passion.
• 26:31
  that people will know: Yeah, and you meet some interesting people. You've told me about some really interesting folks that you take out on the trail because people trust you, they know you, and they trust you. So when a big important person comes into town, you're the one that they call.
• 26:43
  that people will know: Exactly. We've almost killed the British ambassador. Yeah.
• 26:49
  that people will know: Yeah. You should just when you're when you're retired, you should write a book on all of that.
• 26:54
  that people will know: Yeah.
• 26:57
  that people will know: Well, I will link Shenandoah Mountain Guides in the show notes. Let me know when this comes out because I've got my grandson. He said he's really into podcast now. He's six, and I said,"Yeah, I've got to do a podcast.
• 27:05
  that people will know: He said, "What? He thinks this is so cool. He's so excited for this. Well, but it is so cool, Andy. He's right. It is. I'm thrilled, Andy. Do you have any final words of encouragement for
• 27:18
  listeners: Just get out, learn what you're doing, do your homework, and come have fun.
• 27:24
  listeners: And I also just want to point out that you are are you the only permitted guide to do these activities in Shenandoah National Park?
• 27:34
  listeners: This year has been a really weird year. I'm not sure who has let their permits expire, and who has not? I know I've only run, and I've only been, only seen me when we're out there in years past. I've seen other organizations. I'm not sure if they've just let it go or not, because you know, to go climbing in Shenandoah, you got to you know you got to go out of your way a little bit, and it's not as convenient as the gym or Great Falls or something like that. So I really don't know if anybody else. I know there are others. Like I've got a real good friend, Lester Zook. You know, Wild Gut Adventures, great guy. He just we just talked about him in the last episode. I did an episode about Harrisonburg, and he came.
• 28:08
  listeners: Oh, good.
• 28:10
  listeners: Yeah, just great friends. You know, we've all got sons, and and just he's a great guy. But I haven't even seen him in Shenandoah this year, so I don't know.
• 28:19
  listeners: I know he goes to Hidden Rocks a lot.
• 28:21
  listeners: Oh yes, that was one of the hikes that we talked about in Waterfall Mountain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. The only reason I bring that up is because I want people to realize that a permit is required for guiding with these activities, and I would not want somebody to find themselves in a situation where they think they have hired a professional guide, and then they find out that guy doesn't have a permit. So you have a permit, and that's a very important thing to have.
• 28:46
  listeners: Insurance, and I'm also the trainer for you know the trainer for the Park Service too. So I teach you know I teach a lot of the stuff the park staff.
• 28:53
  listeners: That's that makes you just so cool, Andy. You're just I don't know about that. I mean, I love doing it. It's just, it's you know, it's what I'm on Earth.
• 29:00
  listeners: Really, that's why I feel so lucky because I feel like I am one of the few people in the world who really has discovered exactly what they're on Earth for.
• 29:10
  listeners: Thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge about all of these activities of Shenandoah National Park. I do hope that people visit your site, and if they are interested in any of these courses or these experiences or these adventures with you, that they reach out to you with any questions or to register. I've done these adventures with you. I've had an absolute blast. My friend Tracy keeps wanting to come back again and again. She's like, if you ever go out with Andy? You have to take me. It's now just become understood that she gets invited.
• 29:42
  listeners: Now, are you serious about wanting to do white oak? If you if we get it up in a couple of weeks, yes, yeah, absolutely, of course.
• 29:48
  listeners: We're gonna get a wetsuit. We'll need wetsuits.
• 29:50
  listeners: Yeah, that's the only thing that makes me a little nervous. I hate wetsuits. I mean, I'm okay in them, but it's gonna be cold.
• 29:58
  listeners: Yeah, yeah, but hey, you know what? If that's what it takes, then let's do it.
• 30:03
  listeners: Kevin Moses wants to go also, and you know Kevin.
• 30:05
  listeners: Kevin's been a guest on this podcast before. He did the episode about waterfalls of Shenandoah National Park, and he's he's a character. He's a lot of fun.
• 30:15
  listeners: He's retired. I was just talking with him this afternoon, and I'm getting loaned him a bunch of climbing gear to take his Boy Scouts climbing this weekend.
• 30:20
  listeners: But he wants to go cascading down White Oak maybe in October.
• 30:24
  listeners: So if we can see if we can make it work.
• 30:29
  listeners: Yeah, well, definitely let me know the dates because I got a lot of traveling for this podcast to do. So I would have to block that off on my calendar. Okay, no worries.
• 30:38
  listeners: All right, Andy. Again, thank you again for being a guest. I can't wait to see you out on the trail again.
• 30:43
  listeners: Sounds great.
• 30:44
  listeners: All right, adventure on.
• 30:44
  listeners: Virginia Outdoor Adventures is inspired by and supported by listeners like you, which is why your messages and feedback mean so much to me. You can text me directly by clicking on Send Jessica a text message in your show notes. I answer questions, respond to comments, and share your feedback on the show. Never miss a new episode. Sign up for my email newsletter and receive my listener resource guide with the top podcast episodes of her.
• 31:14
  listeners: Virginia Outdoor Bucket List and exclusive brand discounts for my listeners. Click on newsletter sign up in your show notes or visit VirginiaOutdoraAdventures.com.
• 31:25
  listeners: Thanks for listening. Until next time, Adventure on.