Latest / Senior Pet Talk | for dogs + cats / 24. The Grief All Pet Parents Face with Special Guest Dr. Jenn of Sage Paws

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24. The Grief All Pet Parents Face with Special Guest Dr. Jenn of Sage Paws · Senior Pet Talk | for dogs + cats

• Amanda Steffen: And welcome back to another episode of Senior Pet Talk. We are here to talk today about anticipatory grief with Dr. Jen. She is one of my very good friends, and we have gone through a lot of these things at the same time, growing our businesses together, and they go along with each other really well. So I am really excited to have her here in person. We also have a fly coming around. So if you're watching us in in live action and you see us kind of swatting around, we're not going crazy. We have a friend. But that's okay. So thank you for being here, Dr. Jen. We're really excited about it. And if you want to just tell us a little bit about you and what you do. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Dr. Miranda. This is so so fun to get to talk about a topic I'm super passionate about. But I am a veterinarian. I have my business Sage Paws and I help pet parents prepare for end of life and navigate anticipatory grief. Exactly. Yeah. Which is something that I don't think a lot of people understand that they that helping in that category would be so beneficial to planning with their senior pets. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. A lot of people don't even know that it's a term and what they're going through. And then they hear the description of it and they're like, my God. Yeah. Yeah. my God, there's a name for what I'm going through and I'm not crazy. Sometimes you've been feeling it since your pet was you got them, right? It doesn't have to be a senior pet thing. So it's something that we tend to pick up on more in their senior years, but it can be something that we know from the get go. Yeah. So that was my experience with my cat Reese. I brought her into my life. Excuse me, when she was six weeks old and Started feeling it with her as I'm doing the mental math, mental gymnastics of like, okay, she's six weeks old, cats live till they're hopefully twenty. And I'm like, Okay, I have this much time. And yeah, it's been coming up with me. She just turned fifteen in April. So she's almost fifteen and a half. So yeah, it's been not a constant thing, but something that I remember noticing, like, okay, I have felt this before. Like when she was really, really tired. It's this little background noise that's always going on. Right. So I think that's a good starting point is if you want to give us kind of like what is your definition of anticipatory grief and how is it different from like the grief that we have after our pet passes away. Yeah. That's a really good question. And how I define it, and I feel like a lot of other people define it this way, is it is the grief that you feel before the loss occurs, when there is a threat of some kind of loss some kind of change, especially in senior pets, like there's so many changes that are happening and you're starting to notice, okay, they didn't, you know, run up the steps like they used to. So you're like starting to grieve that loss of health and vitality. And then you start to think about, okay, well, how much time do I have left with them? And you just kind of go more and more into the future. And it is, I would say the sadness that you feel thinking about losing them when they're physically right next to you. Mm-hmm. They are probably doing well, or maybe they're not doing so well. And you're just thinking about projecting into the future and thinking about that day and when they're not going to be here and you're feeling sad about that loss before it occurs. And there's a lot of other emotions that come up that are similar to post loss grief. But I think it's just that when the pet is here and you're feeling sad about it, and then also anxiety is a big component to it, as well as you are You know, trying to predict things that are largely unpredictable, trying to control things that are largely out of your control. So it's like, I don't know when that moment's gonna come. And as human beings, we like to feel in control. And so it's like just all these unknowns and uncertainties, and it can be very, very overwhelming. And not to say that post-loss doesn't have its uncertainties, doesn't have the overwhelm, but I feel like that. Is a big part of anticipatory grief and the like analysis paralysis and decision fatigue and then the caregiver burden and fatigue that comes with caring for a senior pet, especially some that have a lot of different issues going on. Yeah. And I think sometimes people think that the grief after they lose their pet, like we think about that moment a lot. Yeah. And what people don't understand is that is anthroid grief. Like that is what actually what you're going through right then is when you're thinking about the moment that they're not here anymore and like how you're gonna feel when they're not here anymore and how you're gonna feel when they're gone is that grief that you're living in right now. And that's what you can have some guidance and have some help with and you don't have to do on your own. Yes. And I think that's one of the most important parts for people. Yeah. Cause I think they also like struggle with why am I feeling sad right now? I shouldn't be feeling sad. I should be right. Yeah, they're right here. I should be enjoying this time with them. Like, and then there's the guilt that comes in of feeling this sadness about something that hasn't happened when they should should, in air quotes, be just like so happy and enjoying every single moment. And it's like that's not the reality. Like it's Okay to feel sad about something that is coming. Like it's a very normal and natural response to that impending loss that hasn't happened yet. And yeah, people I think wonder if there's something wrong with them, if they're crazy, if they're broken. Like he's literally right here. Why am I sad? And it's like, I am, I think my life's mission is to just normalize and validate that, like, you're not. Crazy. There's nothing wrong with you. Like there's nothing broken about you for feeling sad about even just thinking about losing your pet. Like it is a sad, sad time. Yeah, absolutely. And I think this plays into it a little bit, but what do you feel like are some signs that a pet parent may be able to actually externally recognize in themselves? That they are already grieving their pet. The sadness is the big one. Touched on that where you do feel the sadness. Cause I've experienced that with Reese, where like sometimes I can think about the end of her life and feel okay. And then there are other times where I think about it and it literally brings me to my knees and I'm sobbing. So just yeah, the sadness I think is the big one that pet parents experience where it's like, That is a sign that you are experiencing anticipatory grief when you're feeling sad about the loss that hasn't happened and your pet is right next to you. The anxiety, like I mentioned before, maybe some hypervigilance of like constantly watching their breathing or how they're moving, or did they eat that, or how they're drinking? Like this just like very hyper fixation. Maybe even some like frustration and resentment that can come up when you are. caring for a pet, especially one with multiple issues going on. But I think the sadness when they're still here is the biggest, the biggest sign of being in anticipatory grief. Yeah. Yeah. And I think from like my clients and my consultations that are doing things like that, I I see that a lot with people. It's like, I'm just overwhelmed and I'm so frustrated. And there's just I I feel like I'm can't even tread water anymore. And a huge piece of that isn't the illness. It isn't what's happening to your pet right now. Yeah. It's the thought of what's happening next. Yes. And like that anticipation. Yes. So a lot of times it's having these conversations where we're trying to figure out ways to bring them into the present moment as opposed to thinking ahead because We can only control the present. You know, we can't control the past. We can't control the future. And I think there's there's some crazy statistic, because I am a high anxiety person, where you know, we spend a large percentage of our life worrying about things that don't even happen. Yeah. You know, and I I know if you guys don't know, Dr. Jen is inside of my program and she helps to talk about this twice a month with pet parents, which is really wonderful. And to have such a hard topic and people love those talks. Like I hear every time I I have my lives that like they really enjoy those conversations with you proves like how good you are at what you do. Because it does just help people. And in in these situations where we had a client recently and she found a lump on her cat's leg. And there was so much of the Well, if it's cancer, am I gonna cut his leg off? Am I gonna do chemo? Am I gonna do all these things? And it's just like we spiral and we go so far ahead. Yeah. And being able to just bring people back to a moment and like there's there's a level of preparation to have that's definitely part of it. Thinking about those things. But let's slow down and pause for a moment, like spiral, get it all out, like word vomit, whatever you have to get out, because name it to tame it is a phrase that I like to use. And if you can like name it and express it, that Helps to reduce that anxiety, that overwhelm. And it's like, okay, let's table that for a moment. These are things we are going to talk about, but like let's take it a step, a step back, one step at a time. Yeah. Because it is so easy to spiral because you don't know when the end is is coming. And like you mentioned, as human beings, we love to feel in control. And it is very uncomfortable to feel we can't control the future. We can't we try. So we sure try. But it's a matter of trying to help people through that process of things. Yeah. And I think that's that's a part people often feel and they don't realize that it isn't history green. Of that spiral that you go down and that just like down the hill thing that you start to build this giant snowball and you're like, Yeah, it's you know, you it's just being able to, like you said, take a step back and come back from that. And 'cause really ultimately it's gonna help your pet if you're able to you have to be able to make good, thorough thoughts. Right. And you have to make decisions, unfortunately, for them because they can't talk for themselves. So in order to make decisions that you are comfortable with and going forward with, you're going to not regret, I think, having that. Tamed is really important. Yeah, absolutely. And like I talk a lot about, you know, few regrets. What would you regret the least? Like if you can project yourself out six months from now or six months after losing them, and you were to look back, like what would you regret the least? What would you regret the most? And it is a perspective shift for people to get them to kind of pause and be like, never thought of it from that angle before. And I think it really helps to kind of strip it down and silence a lot of the noise that comes with it when you are just like, okay, because there's a there's a quote that I live my life by is like you regret the chances that you don't take more than the ones that you do. So like I try to live my life with as few regrets as possible. And it's just it's such feels like such a simple question of like what would you regret the most or the least, but it can be like the pause that I think people need. to come back to like what is most important to me and my pet right now and just like strip away all the other BS that's out there that can make you feel like you're drowning. Yeah. There's so much. Yeah. I I felt this with Floyd because I often now say, not often, but I'll I'll say now looking back, like, do I regret doing chemo or radiation or surgery on him? And from an out Perspective, yes, because it didn't give me a good outcome. Like I didn't get a lot more time or anything like that. But from a looking back perspective, I would have regretted not trying. Sure. Like I would have always questioned, you know, the general idea for him with radiation therapy was it could give him two years. Yeah. I didn't get that. Yeah. But if I hadn't done it, I would have always questioned could I have had two more years with him? The what ifs, the what ifs are I mean, I think you'll always have what ifs. There will always be I think you made a post about it, the hindsight of how hindsight bias, I think you talked about, and I was just like, my god, that is that's so true. Where it's like you're at the end, so you get to look back and you get all the little parts and pieces that you didn't have when you were in that place. And it can mess with your mind. so much where it makes you think certain things, you know, that that just aren't necessarily true. They feel very true, but it's like you now have all the information and you did it back then. And you're making the decisions you feel are best with what you know and have available to you at the time. And, you know, you are more than likely coming from a place of wanting nothing but the best for your pet and this place of like unconditional love and compassion for them. Yeah. But it's hard. The responsibility grief that comes with that, because they're almost like like little kids, like little babies are pets where you know, we're making all these decisions for them. They can't advocate for themselves. They can't say, like, hey, yes, I want to do that. No, I don't. So that's a lot of freaking pressure. A lot of pressure already. And then if you're managing medications and, you know, if they aren't super mobile and you have to help them up and you have to express their bladder and like all these things, it just all compounds. For sure. Yeah. And I think you touched on something that, you know, if if people have children as well, this is something that we think about is I hope with my actual human children, I raise them and they grow up and I outlive them. Right. We don't get that option with our pets. We know 99% of the time we're gonna outlive them. Yeah. So it's also that component of like. I know they're gonna get worse no matter what I do. Like eventually there is going to be a decline that happens on the other side of this. And we're gonna have to go through that. But there is a lot of grief that goes along with knowing that, you know, so many people just say, I wish they could live forever. And yes. But I do think that they teach us a lot of things from the other side too. my God. They teach us so much like what it is to be present and in the moment because that is that's how they operate their lives. That's how they live. They don't really worry about the future or rehash the past like we do. They are very the best teachers of what it means to be present. The best teachers of what it means to have unconditional radical acceptance of all people, other paths, like and just the unconditional love. And I think that makes it so hard to lose them because we don't always get that or maybe never get that with other people. Absolutely. And it's that is a hard, hard thing to not have when that's the only source that you have. Yeah. Yeah. And it is I saw a human medical doctor talking about how people live longer when they have a pet companion. Yeah. And there are a lot of studies about that. There's studies to show that your dementia symptoms decrease if you have a pet that's in your life, that you live longer if you have a pet in your life. You know, so this grief does happen along with it. But overall, I feel like they make us such better humans and give us something Outside of ourselves to live for. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's really, they are, they are the best teachers for so many things. And like we are so lucky to to have them. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. So let's give people some some tools. So, how can we try and stay present with our pets while they're sitting right beside us on the couch? Yeah. And not easy to do. I feel like the it's like, just be present. But it's like, That is so hard to It makes me want to snack something. I know. It's like, okay, duh, I know. Like just be present. Like, I got that. And in our world now, there's so many distractions out there where it's like the phone, the TV, like all the things. So it it it is really difficult to be present. And I think some things that can really help with that is the five, four, one. Five, four, three, two, one grounding technique where five things you hear, see, touch, smell, ta one thing you taste. I don't remember the exact order of it, but that can be a really powerful thing where you just you pause and you fo you start on the five and you notice the five and then you go to the four. And it's like really just helping you kind of like silence all the stuff out there and just like focusing on the room with you or room that you're in. Yeah. So it's like focused on the five senses. Yeah, the five senses. So it's like five things. I actually wrote it down. Yeah. So it's five things you can see, five things or four things you can touch, three things you can hear, two things you can smell, and one thing you can taste. I love that. And just like you ha you have to force yourself almost to do it because we are, and this is probably going back to childhood too, so conditioned to go, go, go, go, go. And are like you know, productivity is tied into our worth and all this other all this other stuff that I can go off on another tangent on. But like we just we are constantly go, go, go. So to sit there and to slow down is can be really hard. And so it's like being intentional of like, I'm going to retrain my brain and re like these muscles and learn these muscles to help myself be more present. And that grounding technique, I love it. And it's It's so simple and so I feel like easy to remember versus some of the other stuff. But that would be one. Another would be to sit down and make a bucket list. And this doesn't have to be like grand trips. It doesn't have to be anything expensive. It c I mean it could be if you want to and your pet is able, but it can be as simple as, you know, Fluffy's favorite thing is to sunbathe on the porch outside. So that's gonna go on the bucket list and we're gonna actually do that together. Like scheduling that intentional time with your patent in your calendar of like we're gonna do their favorite things that they're like, we're gonna make this bucket list. If we went and visited Mrs. Smith down the street to get some treats, we went on a car ride, you know, it the the sky is the limit with creating a bucket list. But I think that can sometimes help. Sometimes people don't find it helpful and that's okay. Like there's no one right or wrong or perfect way to to focus on like what helps me be present. How do I navigate through this time? And it's like getting clear on what does presence mean to you? Mm-hmm. What does it look like to you? Because for me, when I think about it when I'm with my kids, it is where I just completely lose track of time and I don't check my phone. I'm just like so immersed in what's going on. And I may not remember all the details, but I remember like how it felt to just be like, man. a whole hour has gone by, like that was so quick. Yeah. Versus when you're constantly checking your phone, you're like going back and forth. So for me, it's just completely losing track of time, but it might look different for somebody else. Yeah. I think focusing on the little details of your pet can be really helpful where it's like, you know, is there a unique pattern to their fur? What does it feel like? Tying in with that five, four, three, two, one grounding technique of like, what's the the texture of their fur? What's the color of their eyes? What's that like weird little noise that they always make and just really focusing on those little details that you're gonna want to remember and you're gonna want to like permanently sear into your mind. Yeah. So something like that and just spending time next to your pet and taking taking inventory of that. Or maybe you're reading a book next to them, but you're just like sitting there with them. It does not have to be this fancy, grandiose thing. It can be just simply spending time in proximity to each other. Right. Yeah. And I think this, like you said, brings about a much bigger problem, especially we have here in the US, where like everything is at our fingertips. And we can, if they breathe funny, we can go to an AI app and ask what's going on and and get all these ideas. Or we can go start going down a rabbit hole of Google or, you know, something like that and and get really lost in that. And one thing that I found helpful, I'm working more on meditation myself. And meditation is very hard. So it may not be an easy fix for people, but it is something I've found I find a meditation that works for me, YouTube one or you know, find one on Spotify or something. And it's usually just like something that helps me come back to the center. And being able to set that up somewhere away from me that I can still hear it. Yeah. But then my phone is not in my proximity. Yeah. Because having your phone anywhere in your proximity is gonna make you easy. So easy. Yeah. So being able to just like put it somewhere, put that on and make your meditation focusing on your pet. When you're bringing back the whole idea of meditation is to think about nothing. Basically. so like you'll have thoughts and you'll have these like, I need to get the dishes done. I need to do the laundry. and the idea is to just say, like, I see you. Not right now. Put you in a big nap for later on a shelf. I will come back to you. Like right now, I'm just centering myself. And so being able to do that with our pet, even if like our eyes are open and we're just sitting there with them, my Frenchie loves to be next to me. Like he thinks that he's my child because I had him since he was three days old. So when I get up on the bed, which is usually where I do my meditation, he hops right up and he's like, rub my chest. Yeah. Done. So what I have learned instead of trying to just be like, no, I need I I need to focus, you know, and chewing him away is that I just let him be part of it. And my focus, it's still meditation, it's still grounding because I'm only focusing on one thing and that's really sad. But the fact that just focusing on one thing actually calms our brain. And so maybe it's just focusing on your pet. So for those 10, 15 minutes, you're meditating, you're just looking at them. Yeah. And you're having that like little moment with them. I did this with him the other day and he's a French bulldog, so he's little squishy face. And we were just sitting there and I like leaned my head down and he put his little like squish like in my nose crevice and I almost died. It was so cute. I was like, that's a picture that I can't get now. But yeah. So I so I think like if you Like to meditate or if that's something you would like to do and your brain just won't stop. That's a good way to just yeah, focus. Yeah. I've heard of like active meditation. It doesn't have to be in a dark room where you're sitting Indian style, like with your hands like Yeah, 'cause I'll fall asleep. Or I can't shut my mind off. But like you can do an active meditation where you are listening to one phone in your pocket and you're walking outside. You're in nature. Or you are maybe doing the dishes because that I find like from a sensory perspective, sometimes that water, it's just like I don't have to think about anything. Like I can feel the water. I can just do this like task and it helps to settle my mind. But I love that where it's like just that one on one touching your pet, like really feeling like what does their fur feel like, that soft spot on their nose, what do their ears feel like, and have that playing in the background, whether that's on speaker or earbuds. Yeah. But that can absolutely be a meditation to help. you know, bring yourself back to to presence and to ground you and to just reinforce that bond with your pet. And that's like the whole point of of end of life is to maintain that human animal bond, that connection, that love all the way up until the very end. And I believe it still continues, even when they're not physically here. Like yeah, that's never going away. If you're having thoughts about your pet, if you're remembering things like you're still thinking about them, like you, that connection and that bond is always there. Yeah. It is always there. And so it's like, yeah, strengthening that bond with them now. Yeah. And I love, love that idea of bringing meditation. Yeah. Yeah. Because it makes you be like, okay, no TV. Yeah. You know, there's gonna be no distractions. And no, it's just gonna be focused. Yeah. and I think that helps. It's been it's been something that I kind of stumbled into when I was doing my meditation and and it's just always going to be there. Yeah. so working with it, like losing yourself where you're at, like, okay, this is the circumstances of what's happening. And like how can I roll with it and then it kind of can turn into a ritual that you have. And rituals can be super like grounding and bringing back to present when you are doing those things intentionally and making it a daily thing. And yeah, I I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I think the rituals can be a okay. So what is one thing that you wish that every pet parent knew before they get into this like final chapter and this like end of life part? Yeah. Yeah. I wish every pet parent knew that anticipatory grief was a thing and that it's not weird that you're feeling sad for losing your pet and you absolutely can get support for it. There's you don't have to wait for the loss to occur to get grief support because it starts before the loss. And also creating an end of life plan for your senior pet when they enter the senior stage, similar to like what we do for ourselves, where We are probably creating these plans when we get married or when kids come into the picture. We're creating, you know, advanced directives, wills, trusts, all these things like long before we need it. And that is something I'm on a mission to do for senior pets is let's create this plan. Like nothing is necessarily written in stone, but let's start talking about this stuff, especially when like with pain. As you know, with like senior pets, chronic pain. The earlier, it's way easier to be pro proactive with it than reactive. And the signs are so subtle. So it's like getting that education on what to look for, getting them feeling comfortable in medication or non-medication, just whatever that looks like. Getting well versed in the language of pain is such a big piece. And then quality of life, starting to talk about and take stock of like what does a good quality of life look like for your pet now when they They may have some changes, maybe they've been diagnosed with something, or maybe they're still doing really well and nothing has come up. But like let's explore what does that look like for them now to get kind of think of it like baseline blood work, where it's like you get this snapshot in time and you get this foundation and this baseline that you can compare to over time. And it's like the earlier we start doing that, the more data we can have as we go along and we will maybe hick up on changes sooner and get more, you know, not just quality of life, but quantity too. And starting to think about, you know, what does the what do you want for their end of life experience? Like hopefully that's not for a long time. Yeah. But like, what are your thoughts on euthanasia? You want a hospice supported natural death? Like, what do you want to do for aftercare? What kind of keepsakes? Are pictures important to you? So getting professional portraits. So it's like thinking of all of these things way before you need it, because as you and I both know, senior pets age much faster than we do. Mm-hmm. And I have had recently a string of clients where they brought in their senior pet. The exam looked good. Blood work maybe had some changes, but weren't concerning, or it looked absolutely perfect. And then days, weeks, maybe a couple months later, they declined out of nowhere. And that was my experience with my dog Luke, too, where he had surgery to have some tumors removed. One came back as a mast cell tumor. And it was slowly growing, so we likely were gonna have a lot of time with him. It was probably not gonna come back within his lifespan and we were gonna do two rounds of chemo and he was gonna be good. And then the night before Easter, he didn't want to get up. And I both loved and hated the knowledge that I had in that moment. Cause I remember looking at his gums and they were pale and I was like Yeah. And I knew And so then I had to break the news to my husband who this was his dog. This was his heart dog. And we have two little boys at the time of this recording. They're five and two and a half. And so how do I tell them that we're likely Luke is likely gonna die? He's not gonna come home. And that is that was the outcome. He ended up having a splenic mass that had ruptured and Eric had to make the like we talked and I'm so grateful that before that moment, like shortly after we got his diagnosis of a mast cell tumor, we talked about what we wanted for him, what we didn't want for him, you know, all of these things. And yes, we ideally would have loved for it to be at home, to get to say goodbye to him at home, but circumstances that were beyond our control took that away from us. And so we were able to pivot very, very quickly. And I mean, I remember when he was talking about aftercare, it was like we're getting his ashes back. Like there's no question about about that. And while the conversations we had before he died, they were hard. And it didn't take away the pain and the sadness of losing him, but it helped give us that that direction. We were clear on things. And I'm so grateful we were because in that moment it was chaos. And I've met so many people where they're in that chaotic panic need to make a decision now scenario. And it's hard to decide. And I mean, you've got really hard things you gotta think about. And so that's where I would love for every senior pet parent to start thinking about this and create a plan before they need it, should or when they find themselves in that situation. It's like, okay, we've already kind of thought about these things. Yeah. Before before we needed to. Yeah. I think that's so important. And it is, you know, I think sometimes people think, if I plan it then somehow it's gonna happen faster or like I I'm how could I possibly plan their passing, you know? And the good and bad of that is it's our problem as people. Yeah. Like we're the ones who are afraid of death. We're the ones who are afraid of what comes next because we don't know, right? So no matter what level of like religion or what what your feelings are, like nobody really knows until it happens. Right. So I think we're most afraid of that and for our pets. But, you know, they don't feel that. No. So I think it's so important. And it doesn't mean that like that moment's gonna come faster if you make a plan. Yeah. It just means that you have a plan. Like for or if it does come faster. Yeah. Yeah. Like our kids are the same age, basically. And like we got a will and a, you know, for our for what happens if My husband and I pass away. Yeah. And it was hard conversation. But at the same time, I want my kids to be set up if anything happens, you know? So it's it's a hard necessity. And we we automatically do it for our kids and for ourselves. Yeah. Why don't we do that for our pets too? Like why don't we already have that in place? And like you said, getting a baseline is super important because then we have something to compare it to. And Placebo effect effect is very real. Like there are studies that say up to 40% of people who are in a placebo group notice a change, right? So not picking up on the things that happened to your senior pet is not your fault. It's not saying that you're a bad pet parent because you didn't pick it up. It's just saying that like it's so subtle and it happens so slowly that we miss it. And then we adjust. We like smile, like very without us even realizing it, we're like, adjusting and tweaking. Yeah. Like it's on like a subconscious level almost. And because we are so close with our pets, we see them every single day. We are like zoomed in. It can be really hard to take a step back and zoom out and see these changes when you are seeing it every day. And like you said, it is happening slowly. It's not usually this big drastic change. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think one thing that has helped me in how I process this is I don't think that like when they pass they're gone. Yeah. Like I don't think that there's there's no way that something that was that vibrationally amazing yeah just disappears. Right. You know? So I think that there's and I still like my version of crazy is that I like every time I perform a euthanasia, I talk to Floyd. And you know, I feel feel that connection. And I do feel like I'm passing them over to him. Like, you know, take them, you know. Yeah. So I think that is extremely important to figure out what you feel with that and like come to terms with that and be comfortable with it. Yeah. And if you don't believe in an afterlife, that's fine too. Like, but being able to think through that process and like know what you what you feel helps for sure. And then you get to create what I call not everybody's gonna agree with me, but you can create a beautiful ending for them. You can create a beautiful last chapter. Yes, it's gonna be filled with sadness. Yes, it's gonna be like this is not going to eliminate any of this. Like it's not gonna just be like rainbows and butterflies because you created a plan. Like there's still gonna be stuff that comes up, but it it helps you take back that sense of power and control. Yeah. And come back to coming back to that whole thing of like when you do decide, okay, this is what I want for them. I'm not sure, but I'm gonna like think about that and come back to it. Like, I wanna get make sure I get these keepsakes. Like you might need that extra time to gather these things. And I remember with like, yes, we didn't get that with with Luke, but with my parents' dog Capone, he unexpectedly lost the use of his back legs and progressively got worse, ended up thinking it was a spinal tumor. And while we didn't quite have the luxury of time. It still gave us enough time to like really have those hard conversations. And, you know, I remember going over the morning that we said goodbye to him with my mom. And she was like, is it weird to light candles? I was like, absolutely not. Let's let's light all the candles you want. She's like, is it weird that there's music on the TV? I said, no, yeah, not at all. And she was like, I think I want to I wanna brush him and I wanna get some like waterless shampoo and some wipes and really clean him up because he had some incontinence because of all the neurologic stuff. And it was like I I was like brushing his tail and it was just like we put him on this nice comfy bed and he got like all these treats and like it just it was as sad as it was, it was also incredibly beautiful. Mm-hmm. And he got to go out on a high note with all of his dignity. Where he was most comfortable surrounded by people that loved him. Like it just, it was it's so hard to describe it. And like I said, some people probably think I'm crazy for describing death as beautiful, but for the time that I spent doing in home end of life care, I lost count of the number of beautiful goodbyes that I got to have the honor of bearing witness to. Like it's incredibly sad, it's hard, but there is also beauty in it. Yeah. Those moments can be so beautiful. And I do this for my clients now. I don't do like end of life for for a large group, but I do it for my clients that I have. And it is so like their whole family gets to be there, right? And they get to have whatever they want, like to eat. And you just get this like really magical moment. It was one dog that I helped. And like they had grown kids that and one of them was pregnant with another baby. So it was like, all their grown kids and then their kids significant others got to be there and like they had this huge almost like family gathering a celebration of life almost for him. And he was so happy that all his people were right there. Yeah. So it can be a peaceful, nice thing and something that doesn't have to be so scary and daunting. But if you don't have some sort of a plan in place or you don't know what you would want, then it does get really stressful. Yes. Like I've I work in emergency sometimes. And what I notice when things like hemangosarcoma are a splenic mass that has ruptured, no one expects that. You know, you can have perfect blood work. You can have perfect, you can even have perfect x-rays from four months ago, right? And it can grow in three months. And that can be so hard. Cause a lot of times, like you knew. But most people don't know. Right. You know, now I would say ninety-nine percent of the people that come in and that's what I diagnose and have to go talk to them about. They're like the rug gets ripped out from underneath them. They get this curveball that came out of left field and they're just like in this shock and disbelief. And then then you're trying to make do we euthanize? Do we do surgery? Do we want the ashes back? Do we want to take them home? Like you're trying to make all those decisions when your brain is just like Going on this emotional roller coaster and there's this fog that comes in and it just it is and you're not able to be as present with them. A lot of those patients do end in euthanasia. A lot of those situations do. And I support that decision. And you're not able to be as present as you would want to be if you're not prepared because you're so focused on what are we doing aftercare wise? You know, what are we yeah what do we want pop rights? Do we want these things? Like do we want to do it here? Do we want to try and take them home and do it? Do we want to do it out in the yard? You know, how how can we make this the best that we can? Like, I wish we could have gotten them a cheeseburger or like something like that. You know? So having those things in place to just like be able to if if something like that happens, I have a plan, you know? And then you don't have to follow it strictly. Correct. But you have an idea. Yes. You have a rough draft, this rough outline of like just the something to follow when your brain is going in a million different directions. You have this one like lighthouse that can help guide you, this like path. It may have branches everywhere and rocks that you gotta jump over. But like you have this general thing that can help like ground you. Yeah. in that moment. And I've actually worked with clients where, you know, we talked about what they wanted for the end if they could not all control it. But we've also talked about, you know, what about an emergency goodbye? Mm-hmm. And we we we went there. Like it was a harder conversation because that's the last thing that they wanted. Yeah. But that can be the reality. But it could happen. It could happen. And it's like preparing. Okay. Like how can you Take what you want to do maybe at home and bring it to the ER. So is it some candles? Is it a water fountain that's movable? Is it music? Is it a letter that you want read? So like what pieces can be transferable if that should happen? Where it's like like with Luke, like we wanted to say goodbye at home and that got taken away. So how can we shift to plan B under these less than ideal circumstances and still make it what we want for him? Yeah. And I think to your point about you know, your mom's situation with Capones, like it's only weird if it's weird to you. Like if you feel like whatever you want to do is right and feels right, who cares what other people think? Right. So I've had very off the wall requests for aftercare. Very off the wall. And I don't judge it. Right. Because like Sure. I can judge. Yeah. Like I've had people ask for like a section of skin from their pet, like 'cause they wanted to have it be part of a pillow and and do these things. And like people do taxidermy. People freeze dry their pets. You know, there's different pathways to do it. And like, you know, from it's different. So we judge it because it's not mainstream. Right. But if we were in another country and everything, every animal got taxidermied afterwards instead of getting their ashes back, like it would just be normal. Right. Ashes back would be the abnormal. Yeah. Abnormal in quotes. Right. So I think so much of it too is worrying about other people. And we have too much to worry about to worry about what other people feel. So just focus on what you want. And yeah, what's meaningful to you? Like I had it has to make no sense to anyone else. Yeah. Nobody else has to get it. No. No, because there's not one right, wrong, or perfect way to go through go through it. Or with like the keepsakes. Like I had one client years ago who wanted me to shave off a lot of fur to make, I think she was gonna make a purse out of it. Or maybe it was a pillow, I can't remember, but I was like, absolutely, let's let's do it. Like there's nothing that's weird. No. Like people worry so much about like, is this gonna be weird? I'm like, absolutely not. Yeah. Like, no. Does that feel meaningful to you? Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Let's make it happen. Yeah. I made paw prints of my old dogs, Molly and Floyd, when they were still healthy. And they're still, you know, they've been past for five and eight years now. And those are still ornaments that we put up on our tree every year for Christmas. Yeah. And they're happy moments because they, you know, to me, They symbolize when they were healthy still. Yeah. Because I did them when they were healthy. Nothing was wrong that I knew of. Yeah. I just one year I was like, I want to do this. And in the world of veterinary medicine, we know that's usually something that happens after they've passed away. Yes. So I did get some funny looks from people that were like, Why are you doing that now? Like, because I want it to be a happy memory and I want it to be this nice thing. Yes. And you know who is in my house looking at those. Me. Just me. Yes. I don't care. Nobody else has to see it. Yeah. So I think that's the most important part too. Is like do what feels good to you. Yeah. Drown out the other noise that's out there on what you should or shouldn't do. Like there's so much and it's so hard. Again, another one, like, okay, duh, I know, drown it out. But it's and it's hard to do. Yeah. But that's where working with like creating that plan and getting clear on like, yes, this is important to me can give you that conviction. If you are met with some judgment or some shame from others and it just can help you bring back to like, no, this actually is really meaningful to me. Yeah. And to hell with what you think or say. Like, I'm gonna do this thing. Cause I have a paw print that I made of Luke when he was alive, like a long time ago, that I put on my tables when I do vendor events. And I'm so glad that I have that. And it didn't even occur to me that I had it until recently. I was like, my God, I forgot about that. And we of course have his two after he died, but it's it's nice to have the one that I was able to make while he was very young and very, very healthy. Yeah. Yeah. They live in different parts of my house too. So yeah, it definitely makes them a little bit different. So okay. So I want to talk about what you do and how you help people. So how do you help families talk about quality of life and end of life? I feel like we touched on this a little bit, but how do you help them with that like precursor to the end? Yeah. I do virtual sessions with clients and I have worked with a couple people around the world in different countries, which is like one of my favorite parts of what I do. Yeah. Like I love getting to I don't do in person, but I do like in person, but the virtual piece is so nice because I can help so many more people that way. And, you know, we meet for like right now I just have one to one sessions for ninety minutes and we we talk about, you know, what is most pressing for you? What are your biggest fears, your biggest concerns? Like what are the questions that you have? And we kind of I kind of tailor it to go wherever they need to go. So not there's no two sessions that look the same. Like we might touch on similar things and if they don't have anything major, like I do try to focus on like quality of life, pain, you know, pre-planning stuff, like what's important to you. Have you thought about youth in Asia? Like, there are topics that I will bring, but I love to meet clients where they're at and really just personalize the session for them and giving them what they need in that moment. And I am working on a longer container with multiple sessions because I have had people ask, like, do you offer more than just one? And I do follow-ups right now, but I want to create that longer container for people where where we can really like focus on one topic and deep dive into it, but also still like giving space for the conversation to go where it needs to go. And because I just love I don't want it to be this like cookie cutter, very rigid. These are These are all the things like I want to give you the knowledge that I believe is important for you to have that you might not think about, but I also want to make sure I am addressing what you need addressed, like what you want to talk about, what's coming up for you. Yeah. I think that's where we mesh so well because I believe every pet deserves a personalized plan. Mm-hmm. Like nothing is the same. No. Right? No. yeah. That's awesome. No. And it has been really cool virtually, you know, like I had a session with someone in Australia and like just to learn you know, what they have. Yes. And what their, you know, culture is too and how they interact with their veterinarians and and things like that. And then I had a session with someone in Israel. my gosh. That's awesome. Just hearing the different perspectives helps me learn. Yeah. I I become a better doctor and better at what I do when I get to know about those things. But also like is is always extremely interesting and nice to be able to help people. that I would never be able to impact otherwise. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That was a big draw for me to go virtual versus trying to stay local is because I want to, you know, get this message out to as many people as possible and let them know that there is support because maybe they do live in a country where pets aren't viewed as as fam like they're the outliers. Yeah. And they don't have really anyone to lean on. So like I want to be able to provide that for them. And then just also learning about different perspectives and different culture, cult cultural beliefs, different spiritual beliefs. It helps me to like expand and open my mind to different things. Cause just one example that came up, it's not necessarily cultural, but it's not everybody finds the Rainbow Bridge poem comforting. And that was kind of a surprise because I feel like being in veterinary medicine, everyone's like, the Rainbow Bridge poem, like we think we're doing a good thing by giving that to people. Yes. And for some people, they don't find comfort in that idea. And that was like really eye opening for me. So it helps me again tailor when I'm working with people of like asking them, getting curious, like, what do you think about the Rainbow Bridge poem? Or like What do you find supportive and lightly bringing up these different suggestions if asked for? Another thing that was eye-opening for me is not everybody agrees with giving their pets special meals on their last day. I have s yes, I have had some some kickback on some of my stuff with that too. Yes. I posted, I made a post, it actually went viral. I had I I stopped responding to comments because they were just coming in one after the other. I think it had over a million views. And it was me talking about my dog Riley giving him Reese cups on his last day. And there was, I mean, a lot of people that were like, that's so special. And then there was a lot of people too that were like, I can't believe you gave your dog chocolate. Blah, blah, blah is like, I did not realize that was a thing. But again, it just helps me to open my mind and shift my perspective a little bit of like, huh? Okay. Yeah. Not everybody finds this this comforting. But there was someone who I I did Hershey's kisses. I keep them in when when I go through those with clients, I keep some Hershey's kisses with me. And I thought it was so sweet. Like they get a kiss on the way out, you know? And had someone who reached out to me in direct message and was like, I heard that can give them a heart attack. and I'm like God, that would be really stressful for people to see that and then to think like if they think that's what happens and you know, we know heart attacks are not a thing that really happens in dogs and that's not common. And I have worked in a yard and I have had dogs that have eaten a whole lot of chocolate and they have not had heart attacks. So like this one where she's kids. Yeah. Yes, not a lot of chocolate. No, no, no. we do not, yeah. But you know, that one piece when they're going to be passing soon doesn't have time to affect their body. Right. But their parents don't always know that. Yeah. Yeah. Or you know, even if you tell them don't still may not believe it. And that's okay. Right. It's just tailoring that situation appropriately. Yeah. Especially in those scenarios. Like that is really important to know everyone's different. Yes. And respecting that. So I think that's really interesting. And what you said is like it can get really it what you do is already really hard. Like when the way that you have to or that you get to like talk to people is bringing in really hard topics and things they don't want to talk about. So it's already something that's difficult. And then you bring in somewhat of a religious component to it because it's like, what do you believe after they pass? Right. Right. And you kind of have to ask that question. So you can tailor what you're doing. Yeah. Like, do you believe they go into Heaven, do you believe that they go into an afterlife? Do you believe that they stay with you? Like what do you believe? Yeah. Yeah. Changes with that. I think that's it does. And just I don't have to know or like we don't have to know everything about every culture, every like all the spirituality. It's just getting curious with that person of like, you know, I'm not really familiar with that. Will you tell me more? Like tell me what that looks like for you. What does that mean for you? Because I just I don't know. I don't have your lived experience. So like Educate me on that. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the coolest things I've learned pursuing integrative medicine is that we probably will never understand everything. Yeah. And in our life and as human beings, we're just not capable. So there are gonna be things that are beyond our mental capacity. Yeah. And instead of saying they're weird or they're silly or they're Just because you don't get it or believe it, truly just being curious about it and being like, that's interesting. Let me learn about that and how that works. And maybe that can broaden what I do. And I think that has helped in integrated medicine in general. Like I'm starting to take ozone therapy. I've started to look into stem cell therapy. And those are things that years ago I would have said, push, nah, that's hooey, that's witchcraft, that's not real, that doesn't work. And now I like. I'm in a group with a bunch of integrated vets who post and who comment about all these things and these these really amazing results that they're getting. And there's no reason for them to lie, right? It's just a group of veterinarians. They're not advertising any of their own stuff. Yeah. So to see the results they're getting and to start learning from them, I just I think an open mind is the way that we continue to grow and change in life. And if we're not growing, what's the point? Yeah. If you're not growing, you're dead. Yeah. There's no reason. So and I think it opens up so much more compassion too when you get curious about other people's perspectives, their experience, and it shifts something in you and you can you expand that capacity for more compassion for others who are different, where it's like I might not agree with this, this might not be something I choose for myself, but I can still respect you, I can still hold compassion for you, I can still hold space for you. Because that's your truth and that's what feels real and meaningful to you. Who am I to judge that and to try to change your mind on that? Yeah. It's your your version of it, right? So how do you feel like partners or family members can support someone who may be going through seniorhood or end of life or hospice care with their pet? Yeah, that is it's a really good question. And I feel like I get it a lot where, you know, you have the primary caregiver who is doing all the appointments, all the medications. They are like in the trenches. It reminds me a lot of motherhood in certain ways. Yeah, that caregiver role. And then you have other people who maybe aren't in it, maybe not as emotionally invested. And it can be hard when you're not on the same page. When you have like family members in your ear, like, I think it's time. Like you want to do what? So therapy, I think Quite honestly, like depending on the dynamic can be super helpful because like I'm not a therapist, I'm not a mental health professional. I haven't really worked with a lot of couples who were like in general or on different pages. But I think if the person, if you have different perspectives, if you can get curious again, get curious and have an open mind and be willing to listen to the other person and create that safe space for communication where you might not be on the same pages, but like how can we, you know, share our truth and what we believe is happening without other people getting defensive. And I think tools like a quality of life assessment or a scale or a worksheet can be really, really helpful with those situations of having everybody fill one out. And then come together and talk about it because everybody's perspectives are gonna be different. Yeah. But yeah, having a tool like that can be helpful and just creating that space to have that open dialogue and sometimes having a therapist to kind of mediate that might be helpful if you are really struggling and like butting heads and it's causing a lot of tension. Yeah. But just like the curiosity and having the open mind of like, okay, tell me about your experience. What are you what are you seeing and Doing your best not to judge or shame the other person for things, which is again easier said than yeah. And in a supporting manner of like, with motherhood too. But don't just say, and I we say it with the best intentions, but don't just say, like, let me know how I can help. Yeah. Because you're giving them another task. Yeah. You know? So say, Hey, I saw there's this really cool pumpkin patch. And like, I think we could take in it. While he's in his wheelbarrow. Right. Like the it looks really like, do you want to do that this weekend? Yeah. Or like, hey, would you like for me to come over? I picked up a pup cup for, you know, him and I want to just like come hang out with you and watch TV. Cause it can be really isolating. Yes. Yes. As a pet parent of a senior pet who's especially needs a lot of time. Yes. And a lot of people come to me and say, my friends and family don't understand and they get upset with me when I don't want to come to Christmas because it's ten hours away. Yeah. And I don't want to make him ride in the car for 10 hours and I'm not going to leave him because something may change. So, you know, just like you said, trying to get curious and being a little bit more understanding of those situations. Like this is us taking care of an aging family member. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So yeah. And if you can't if you don't feel like you're getting the support from your family, your friends, your spouse, partner, finding that community. Cause we need different people for different things. So it's like finding that community of people who get it and understand without you even having to say a word. Mm-hmm. They know you're coming in because you're anticipating a loss or you've lost a pet, like they already get. Mm-hmm. So much. I mean, they don't know your experience, but they understand what their experience is like. And so if you are not getting that from the close people in your life, setting that boundary very lovingly of like, okay, you are not the people that I can rely on right now. And that's okay because everybody's capacity is the same. But I am going to make this commitment to find my tribe of people who I can truly lean on. Yeah. And get the support that I need that I'm just not getting right now from the people close in my life. Yeah. Yeah. Finding the people that may have been through something similar before. And they may not be the people that are your close friends. They may they may be someone that total stranger on the internet that you like you weren't close friends with before, but now you are. Yes. I feel that with your community. Like in the sessions that I have, like it's been a little trio for a while. And it's like I feel like we'd meet in person and we would have Like it wouldn't be awkward. Absolutely not. Yeah. It wouldn't be awkward with Rhonda and and Ellie and you know, that that whole Rhonda, I don't know if you like Rhonda sent Ellie stuff in the mail. Yes. Like it's just Yeah. gosh. Like that's what I want to build. Like that's the whole purpose of what I'm doing because I want people to not feel exactly how I felt, which was alone. Like I didn't find my people that I could talk to. Yeah. And it felt very isolating. Yes. So just having those people you can go and talk to. And sometimes it's actually easier if you probably will never meet these people in real life, right? Yeah. Because you can cry, you can break down, you can say, rant about whoever you want to rant about. Like they don't know these people in real life. They don't know. And they'll probably never know them. So it's kind of nice actually a little bit for you to just be able to to go on, dump things out, have that support system to say, yeah, me too. Yeah. And go back to your day to day life and like those people don't even know and that's okay. Like you don't really want them to know. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's the the goal of the community is. Yeah. And it's something that I talk about with clients too of like dosing your mourning, which is the how we're expressing our grief. Like grief is all the thoughts and feelings we have inside that we experience. And then mourning is the outward expression. And I feel like we don't always we aren't always the best at outwardly expressing because of you know, our s how our society is and like emotions as a kid and like all like all this other stuff. And so it's it's a a time for you to go into that community and express all that you're feeling and give it a place to go. Name it to tame it, feel it to heal it, express it, don't suppress it. Like all of that. And then with the dosing, it's like you do that and then you go and maybe distract yourself. So it's like that I forget what the theory is, but it's like oscillating dual Mm-hmm to duel something with grief where you like go back and forth between the like active grieving and then the distracting and the grieving and the distracting. And like that, that is the work of of grief, whether it's anticipatory or post loss, of allowing yourself to feel the whole of it. Yeah. And that's where the community can be so important of giving you that intentional time, that self-care of getting all of this out to people who get it. Yeah. And then it's like releases maybe the pressure a little bit and then you just go and distract yourself. Yeah. And finding that balance between and finding an open place to express all those emotions, right? Like we one of our last sessions, we all just cried for an hour. Yeah. I didn't even record that one because I it was so personal. Yeah. That I didn't want that to be something that gets seen otherwise. But it was just a moment for three of us to reminisce and Cry and unite and you know, feel all the things and be able to have a place to just spill that was really nice. Yeah. Yeah. So if there was something that you could tell a pet parent, right, they're in this kind of seniorhood with their pet right now, what do you want them to take away from this and to know going forward? I would say the big thing, and it's probably gonna sound like a cliche, but like you are doing the best you can with what you know and have available to you at the time. You are making the decisions you feel are best from a place of love, compassion, wanting the best for your pet, and that you are not crazy for feeling sad about losing them while they are physically right next to you. Like it is so common and so normal and you are not the only one going through this and I realize it can feel really isolating, like we've touched on, especially when you're in that intense caregiver role. I see so many parallels with like motherhood, like we're both mothers, and just like I not comparing the same thing to like pets and kids. They're not the same thing, but there are so many parallels when you're in that caregiving role where you feel like you're failing and you feel like you're doing things wrong. And the questioning of like Did I make the right decision? Is this the best thing for them? Should I have done this? Well, how did I not know? And to give yourself some grace and space and give yourself the same love and compassion that your pet gives to you every single day. Like how can you extend that to yourself? during this season that is so up and down, such a gray area. And with not one right, wrong, perfect way to navigate through this, yeah. Despite what society wants to tell you with all the noise, like, how can you drown that out? And just put the blinders on, put the la la la la la, like and just focus on what is most meaningful to you, what is most important to you and your pet. What do you want for them? What don't you want for them? Regardless of what other people are gonna say. Yeah. Think or do. Easier said than done. That's beautiful. I love that. I think it is very important to say to yourself what you would say to a friend. Because we are biggest critics. So would you talk to your friend the way that you talk to yourself in your head? And if the answer to that is no, then fix the way you talk to yourself. Because you gotta live in that head for your whole life and you're the only one. So and if you are stressed because you're like, am I doing enough? You are. By definition. If you care. Yeah. Like if you're stressing that much, like you are doing enough. Yes. Like doing the best you can. Like mothers who worry about being am I good mother? Like you are. Like if you're worried about how much you're doing for your pet, you're a good and I sometimes I hate using the labels of like good, but it's like you are doing enough. Yeah. You are do you're doing a good job. Yes, you're doing a good job. Yeah. Okay. I love that. We're gonna end on that note. So Dr. Jen is in my program, you know, like I said, talking to all of pet parents there. But if people want to reach out to you solo, which you absolutely should, because like I said, she is amazing. This is I truly feel like this is like your calling. Like this is the thing you're meant to do because you're so good at navigating it with people. So if people want to find you, let them know. Or if they can find you. Thank you for that. I appreciate appreciate hearing it because this is Work that I am very passionate about. I truly do feel like it is my like soul work, my soul's calling. Like I remember finding out about palliative care and hospice for pets and end of life care. And I'm like, I think I would be good at helping people through that. And it is just nothing lights me up more than getting to have these conversations with people and walk this path with people. And some are like, How can you do that? It is so hard and so sad. And it's like, yes, it is. It is. I get choked up with. Absolutely with my clients, with my pet parents. Like when I, you know, with what they're sharing, like I've cried during euthanasias with clients. And it just I I love this work so much. I love this topic so much. And would love to have people follow along on Instagram. It's at underscore sage underscore pause. And then my website is sagepaws.com. Awesome. And I will try to make sure we get all that linked in our notes too. Thank you again for being here, Dr. Jen. And thank you all for being here and hanging out with us while we cried a little bit and had our fly friend with us. So it's always something exciting. But thank you all for spending your time with us and have a beautiful day. Thanks for having me.