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From Addicts Son to Drug Interdiction Cop: Brady Bailey tells all on Family, Faith and Redemption · Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)

• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Murders to Music podcast.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: My name is Aaron, I'm your host and thank you guys so much for coming back for one more week.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: On tonight's episode we are actually going to have a real live police officer on the show.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: That's right, somebody that is still out there doing the job day in and day out and making an impact and a difference in his community.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: You guys, tonight we're going to be talking to Brady Bailey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Brady Bailey is a police officer out of Oklahoma State but what he does different is he is an interdiction officer and I'm going to let him explain what interdiction is.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: But he's an interdiction officer looking for all kinds of illegal activities going up and down the highways, from drugs to human trafficking, prostitution, guns, money and he has specialized in getting those things off the street.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: You know, even in a small town in Oklahoma, when those things leak in, they are absolutely connected to every crime that is committed around there, from robberies to burglaries to murders to domestic violence.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: When we can take the drugs and alcohol off the street and the illegal narcotics and the narco-terrorism and all that off the streets Just makes our communities a safer place.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: And tonight we get to talk to Brady.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Brady is making this his career, he's teaching others how to do it and he's just got a passion and a fire for making our community safe.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: So, brady, give me interdiction in 15 seconds or less.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: So interdiction is being able to recognize criminal activity in a whole.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: That's a huge category, but giving it to you quickly, that's what I would give you the definition of it as Criminal activity in a whole.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Being able to indicate on a single traffic stop boom, boom, boom.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Hey, there's criminal activity here.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I need to look into this further.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Tell me about yourself, man.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: So I just turned 28.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: I've kind of always knew that I was going to get into law enforcement and I guess, growing up with a cop you don't, I don't know, I didn't really ever have it planned out.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: My dad come to me at about 15, and at that time I was like, well, I'm going to the NFL, let's just kind of be what it is.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: And my dad was like, well, you know what's the backup option?
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: So I didn't grow up with a mom.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: She had a drug abuse problem, so just a dad.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: And I remember he kind of chuckled and I was like, well, I mean, I guess if I don't make it to the NFL, I'll do that cop stuff.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so it kind of led me down the same path that he took and we have different drives.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: For sure, he doesn't seem to care to work a lot of dope like I do.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: But the drug side of things is fun to me.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: It's interesting.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: I revert back to my five years in the jail and I use those type of people, skills and the way that they think, to kind of help me find drugs out in the world.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: A lot of tattoos, symbols, signs, anything like that that I can relate to.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: I can figure out which gang they are affiliated with and kind of take a different angle at them.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Maybe so nice I don't know.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Well, dude, that's super cool.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: So you mentioned that you grew up with just a dad, no mom, and then in the message exchange you said your mom was a drug user or a drug abuser, correct?
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, tell me about that man, like when did that start?
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: How was it growing up in that environment?
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: And how was it growing up with the dad on one side of the lawn, a mom on the other?
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were uh, you know they high school sweethearts.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Whatever they dated.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: For a few years in high school they had me and within about six months of having me she kind of went and chased her own interests and left me with him and then it was a pretty nasty custody battle for a few years.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, you got to think back in the 90s.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: They continued trying to give her time with me and everything else.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: So it was a hard fight for my dad, but he just didn't give it up and was able to eventually get all rights taken from her.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Did you grow up around drugs at all?
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Did you see your mom?
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, even at a young age did you know what was going on with her, or not?
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, of course.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Then I was so young, um, the last times that I really have any recollection of being around her and around that stuff, I would have probably been three, four and, um, yeah, I do remember seeing what I know now to be drugs.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I didn't, of course, know what it was then, but I did walk into the kitchen at one point and see her using methamphetamines and of course, at that time I didn't know what it was then.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: But I did walk into the kitchen at one point and see her using methamphetamines and of course, at that time I didn't know what it was.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: She just screamed at me to get out of the room.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: So it went out.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: So it was a completely different culture shock to go from living house to house and some of our area in Oklahoma, some of the worst rough areas.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: She would have me there and then I'd go back home to a steady household with my dad.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: So it was a very different.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Was your dad a police officer?
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Was your dad a police officer during that time?
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: He wasn't at that time.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: No, he wasn't.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: At that time he was still.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: I don't even think he was 21 yet, so he wouldn't have been allowed to be in a cop.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: He was still working and in college and stuff, but shortly after he got into it, gotcha.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: So it was still working and in college and stuff, but shortly after he got into it gotcha.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: So it was still mama, still a drug abuser, while dad was a cop going through the Academy and kind of cutting his teeth in law enforcement.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, wow man, wow, wow.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: You said that you watched.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: I came in and saw your mom.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: How old were you when you caught your mom doing drugs?
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was probably three or four years old.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: It's crazy.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: I can actually remember some four years old.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: It's crazy.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: I can actually remember some of that stuff.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: So I don't know.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: I was reading that y'all like to look into basically trauma and stuff in the childhood development or trauma in general, but you want to talk about trauma, that whole experience.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: It was probably more trouble and trauma onto me having to go around her while she was using drugs than it would have been if the state would have just stepped up and took her rights.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Then I ended up getting a broken femur over having to go with her.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: I got a concussion, getting bucked off a horse, just basically not having any supervision while I was with her.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: So there was all kinds of bad things that happened before the state was finally like hey, he doesn't need to go back with her.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: How did you break a femur?
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: That's a huge bone to break.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: What happened?
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: So when I was about two and a half, I was unsupervised with a bunch of teenage to high school kids and they were riding golf carts, go-karts, I think somebody was on a lawnmower and we were at a drug house in one of our worst areas in the county that I still live in and someone ran me over, snapped my femur.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Wow, During those times, do you remember or do you know now?
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Was there ever any DHS intervention or child abuse charges or neglect or anything like that kind of brought upon your mom or at least investigated?
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: They might have looked into it.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: But I'll be honest, my dad is not a very emotional person and so those are the ones that tug on his heart the most.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: We've kind of put that behind us and he doesn't really like to talk about it.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: I don't really like to talk about it, so we always try to look past it and just look at you know the good that come out of it.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: He was able to get custody of me and, I feel like, raised a really good son, and I'm just glad that I got away from that before I might've turned out in that.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: You know that direction.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Amen, man.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: So silver lining.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: What kind of silver linings came out of it?
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Tell me about that.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Um, I just think that he was able to produce a really good young man.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: I think that if I wouldn't have had such a strong male role model to look up to and watch after that, I probably wouldn't have turned out the way I did.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: I've always kind of feared if she would have been able to keep custody of me.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: I could have been the same people that I'm out there chasing and trying to make an impact on and trying to stop all the wrong that they're doing in the communities.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: I always I don't know.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: I've always had that in the back of my mind.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: So when we talk about you know we talk about your mom and stuff and your dad, and I'm glad you were able to open up with me about that, um.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: But from the outside looking in, dude, that seems like it might be part of your why.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: We all have a why as to why we do this job, and maybe I'm completely off base, maybe I'm reading the situation wrong.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you got this mom that has made this tumultuous relationship for you as a kid.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: On drugs drug affected you are drug affected.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Do you think that's part of your why as to why you're chasing this and doing this now?
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Affected you are drug affected.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Do you think that's part of your why as to?
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: why you're chasing this and doing this now.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: You know that's funny that you say that, because I've been asked that and almost until someone asked me, I never put two and two together.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: As crazy as that is going to sound to some people, I don't think I ever realized that.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: But yes, yes, I do think that I see firsthand what drugs can do to a parent's relationship, and to think that there is a substance or substances out there that is strong enough to break a parent's bond with their child, that just blows my mind.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I would definitely think that that is the reason that I go hunt it so much and I want to stop that.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: I know I'll never be able to completely stop it, but in my mind, if I can slow it down, I'm doing my part, and I need my brothers and sisters in law enforcement to kind of step up and do the same.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: And, brady, I don't think it's strange at all that you haven't connected those dots and it happens.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Haven't connected those dots and it happens, and here's why.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: So for me, when I was working, um, I, in my last 11 years, working a 36 hour day was not abnormal, that was pretty normal.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Me going to work and coming home 36 hours later and working straight through was like a Tuesday and juggling, you know, 11 homicides at a time and you know 30 or 40 child abuse cases and working around the clock and not only working them but bringing them to conclusion and getting confessions and convictions, and just literally working myself out of a job, working myself into PTSD and stress and, you know, destroying my family at times.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: The only reason I'm still married is by the grace of God and my wife.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: She's amazing.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Um, the fact that I still have kids involved in my life is only because of my wife.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: You know, if it was up to me, they should have all left me years ago.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: But I do all of that and I, I turn over every rock and I piss off the people I work with, cause I always ask that one more question, you know, and I turn a.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: I turn a traffic crash, jaywalking into a murder, sex, rape, crime and why.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: And I didn't get it.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: And it wasn't until I came out of law enforcement and I had been in therapy for about a year, year and a half, that I disclosed this for the first time.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: When I was 8, 9, 10 years old, I used to go to Louisiana every summer to visit my aunt and my uncle down there and they lived on a big piece of property with a neighboring house and there was some teenage boys and girls and the guy was about seven, eight years older than me, so he was probably 1920.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: I was probably 11 or something.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Anyway, he molested me and that didn't come out until after law enforcement and he molested me for about three or four years in a row and, uh, you know, I never spoke about, I never told anybody and it was full, everything you can think of.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Uh, that's what it was and I just kind of buried that down and, hindsight being 2020, that was my why.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: That is the reason that I advocated for kids in child abuse cases.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: That is the reason that I advocated and would literally kill myself in my cubicle with stress to solve somebody else's case, and it's because I would be damned if that was going to happen to anybody else under my watch, you know.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: But it wasn't.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Until I came out I had done this 21 years and I never connected those dots.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: So the fact that you've connected them now it's pretty freaking cool and it gives you that testimony to explain your drive.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: So, again, it's pretty awesome.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Dude, is mom still alive?
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Do you still have any contact with her?
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: She does and actually the day that I turned 18, she reached back out and started talking to me a little bit.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Of course it was very, very minor and minute.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: By that point I had a lot of walls built up personally against her and it's taken.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: I'm now 28, and it has taken years and years to have any type of relationship.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Now she will text me on probably about a weekly basis.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: She'll check on my daughter, ask me how I'm doing.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: We have met up a few times and talked.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Most of those grudges and personal things that I've ever dealt with I've prayed on, I've found peace with and I try to overlook.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: She's doing a lot better.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: She's made a full recovery, gotten off drugs and has custody of her other two kids now.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: So I'm very proud of her on that fact.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Seems to be healthy and doing extremely well now.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: That's really good, dude.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Those other two kids, are they your siblings?
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, they're my half-siblings.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Got it, got it.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Well that they your siblings yes, yes, they're my half siblings Got it.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Well, that is a.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: That's super cool man.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: You know what?
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that you can say.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: You found the silver lining right and you're right.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: The show does talk about trauma.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: We talk about everything.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Have you had a chance to listen to many of the episodes?
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: You know anything about my story?
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Not a ton, so I'll give it to you in like 30 seconds or less, if I can.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: So, born and raised in Alaska, started with an Explorer post when I was one of my first ride along at eight years old.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Started with an Explorer post when I was 13 years old.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Did my first death investigation at 13.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: So that was my first dead body.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: 13 to 17.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Rode thousands of hours with the police department.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: 17.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Moved to Arizona.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Got a college degree in criminal justice.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Back to my hometown at 21.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Became a cop.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Was a cop for 21 years, both in Alaska and in the Portland Oregon area.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: The last 11 years I spent as a homicide and child abuse detective In a city that has well, I mean, during my 11 years I juggled anywhere between six and 10 homicides at all times.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: So we were very, very busy agency.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: A lot of violent crimes, a lot of child abuse stuff and new dead bodies and broken babies every day finally took its toll on my psyche.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: You know, I was the guy that never break until I broke.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: And then I came out of law enforcement kicking and screaming about three years ago, fought the PTSD diagnosis because I thought it was for quitters.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Um, realized that you know, I was the way that I was because of everything that happened on the job, the way I was a parent, a husband, a father, you know, a man of God.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: All of that stuff was affected by everything that I saw on the job and I needed help.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: So started down the recovery, started down therapy and released, started this podcast about a year and a half ago to use my pain for a purpose.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: I don't think God gave me the pain and all the stuff that I went through If it wasn't meant to help somebody and find that silver lining.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: You know we can all wallow in our sorrows and at times we all do, and it's okay because you have to live in that.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: But you can't stay there and you have to protect and guard your heart and you know that is what I've learned over the last two years of therapy, three years of therapy.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: And that's what this podcast is about.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: It's about taking those life lessons that some people don't want to talk about or we're scared to talk about because we don't want to be vulnerable, we don't want to cry, we don't want to say that we feel weak.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: That's not what we do as men, especially as cop men, right?
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: So we are the toughest of the tough, and at least we think we are.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, we're just human beings, right, and human beings are a flawed species.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: We're all made in the image of God and you know we just.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we fall, sometimes we get hurt, sometimes we're sensitive, and that's what this show talks about.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: So we talk about.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: You know, you don't have to be a cop to understand what you know.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: When I came out of law enforcement, I left on a Thursday to go to the doctors with some broken ribs and I never went back and they told me my career was over.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: So, like in an instant, my career was done and when I left, I was on top of the world.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: My ego was huge, my pride was huge.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: I'm on a bunch of television shows and all of that stuff.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: You know it.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Just, it was gone overnight and you have that identity crisis.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Well, you don't have to be a cop to understand what identity crisis is.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Um, so that's the way we do it.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: We talk about things in such a way that, no matter what walk of life you're from, you can understand the message and learn from it and realize that you're not the only one there.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: So that's what this show's about.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Um, you know, and hopefully we'll help somebody along the way right With your story, there's somebody else out there right now who is you know.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: They can relate to you because they were that same kid you know, or they're the cop and their wife is the abuser or whatever it may be, and they got that little one running around their house.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: They can relate to where you're at.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm not the only one who's lived my story.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: You're not the only one who's lived yours, and if we can take this message and help somebody else, that is the passion behind this show.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: So like that, there you are.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: You uh are raised in this house by a single dad.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Your dad became a cop with you at a young age and then you started into the law enforcement field kind of high school-ish, I would imagine.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay yeah, about eight.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: When I turned 18 is whenever I started being able to do ride-alongs.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: He so actually most of the agencies around us they would require 21.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: But kind of one of those you know who you are type deals With my dad being in law enforcement, knowing everybody.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: The sheriff would say, hey, chris, as long as you sign this paper he can go out.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: So I did.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: I kind of got waved in at about 18.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Well, that's cool, man, and you started your career in the jail right For five years.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, how old were you when you started that?
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: You must have been 21, 22?
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: .
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I wasn't even 21 yet, because I came right out of college so went into college I was 18.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, probably 19 or 20 is when I started in the jails.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: And you've mentioned something tonight and you mentioned on one of the other podcasts I listened to and I think it's super important.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: I have a parallel as well, but I want to hear it from you why do you think starting out in the jails was beneficial to you in your law enforcement patrol career?
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: To me you man.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: It's such a different world.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: You know people that aren't in law enforcement.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: They don't understand us.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: They see us.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: A lot of times I feel like the public sees us as scary and just these bad men.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: But you get thrown into something, especially at the age I did, you know, 19 years old or whatever I was you get thrown into a jail cell.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: You have to adapt quickly.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: You have to understand their environment does not work like the world that we live in.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: They have their own set of rules.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: They have their own way of talking, their own lingo, and the quicker you find that out, the quicker you understand how they operate off a respect system and how certain gangs do business, how certain you know policies go in their world.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: The better you can communicate with those people on the streets, and I felt like that gave me a little bit of a leg up when I got to the streets.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: You know the people that didn't work in the jails.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: They didn't quite understand how to deal with people extremely high on meth or whatever.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: You know their first few interactions were.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: I had a few years experience dealing with that.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: You know, of course the cops would bring them in, but you would get them for the rest of the night acting that certain way or whatever.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: So I don't know.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: I just really feel like it gives people a leg up.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: You can learn a lot working in corrections.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know I never worked in corrections, but I got to imagine your small town in Oklahoma.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Do you have a lot of people working with you?
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Do you have a big shift coverage?
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: What's your shift minimums look like.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: So at the current agency that I'm at, we will have we can have anywhere from four to six peoples the most I've ever seen out which we're not a big town.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: We're right next to a bigger town of about 20,000 people, give or take the agency that I work for we're a population of like 3,000.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: They're butted up towns.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: You won't know when you're in one or the other.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: We all call ourselves brother agencies because we can assist, we have MOUs, so we all just kind of work together.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Do you have a lot of cover available to you.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: If you need a cover card, do you have them readily available?
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we can get one pretty quick where I'm at.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Gotcha.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: See, when I was doing Alaska I didn't have the uh, we didn't have backup ready to available.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: You know, there may be my department, my city, was about 7,000, 8,000 people.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: My department had 16, uh, either 16 or 21 sworn.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: But on the road patrol there's about 10 patrol officers, so there were some nights where there was only one or two of us working, you know.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: So we're anyway got 44 square miles.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: So if we are way outside of town, you know, in a rural area, our backup, if we had backup, could be, you know, two hours away.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: So you have to learn how to talk to people.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Right, and when I heard your podcast and you were talking about communication skills and I think and we're going to get into your first stop in a second but when we talk about communication skills, you have to be able to communicate with people, because when you're on that rural road in the middle of nowhere and you've got some guy twice your size, you have to be able to talk them into handcuffs Because you can't just shoot everybody that's in front of you, you know.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: So you've got to be able to communicate, and I think you, you know, so you've got to be able to communicate and I think that you know, in a bigger agency which I went to, you lose that ability to communicate.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: You know, and I think the parallel very similar to somebody maybe not working in the jails or not working in a small town.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: They just come into a big city, go on the road.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Well, all of a sudden, you know you win by manpower and sheer tonnage.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Um, you don't have to communicate.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: So when I was listening to your story there's a lot of parallels there you know, you're three or four years in law enforcement now, correct?
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, four years on patrol.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: And I'll be honest with you at first when I heard your thing I'm at four years on patrol and we're teaching classes, which I'm going to talk about in a second.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: But we're teaching classes.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: I'm like man, you haven't, you know, you haven't even been on the road five years yet.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: And then I had to think back to me at three years on the road, I'm teaching methamphetamine classes.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: I'm traveling all over the state of Alaska teaching people how to cook methamphetamine, because in 2003, four or five was kind of the peak of the meth labs domestic meth labs and that was my job to dismantle them and investigate them and be an expert in them.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: So at three years, I mean there's a lot of similarities, um, so it's really cool and I just get having the passion for it.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: You know I'm going out every night and just kicking ass.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Uh, it's a lot of fun.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I do miss that part of the job.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about what you're doing now.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: So now, um, give me what interdiction is in 15 seconds Go.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: So interdiction is being able to recognize criminal activity in a whole.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: That's a huge category, but given it to you quickly, that's what I would give you the definition of it as criminal activity in a whole.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Being able to indicate on a single traffic stop, boom, boom, boom.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Hey, there's criminal activity here.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: I need to look into this further.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: And what are some of the clues that you look for in that criminal activity?
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: What sets one traffic stop, one car, one person's behavior apart from somebody else?
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: So I try not and I'm going to be very generic because I don't want to let this information fall into the wrong hands.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: But what I will say on that is you pull over a soccer mom and, hey, she gives you her stuff.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: She's not going to be extremely nervous in my presence.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: She might be a little uncomfortable at first getting stopped by a cop.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: You know we all are.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I've been pulled over myself and still be like, oh here's my stuff, man, Sorry.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Self and still be like, oh, here's my stuff, man, Sorry.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: But that nervousness will eventually subside and come down and it shouldn't be too extreme.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, so we're all adults.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: We deal with stress every day.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: You should notice that that starts to subside the longer you're at that window.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Now, somebody that's up to something criminal activity-wise, you're going to see pulsations in their neck you can watch for here.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: You're going to notice that the information that they're giving out is unsolicited and unrelated to the topic at hand.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: They're trying to change my perception of them at that window.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: I'm just a good, wholesome person.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: I'm going to church on a Saturday night at 11 pm.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: The stuff they're saying is not going to add up.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: It's not going to make sense.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: They're going to give me a bunch of misleading information and unnecessary information, and there's a lot to it.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: It's interesting.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I just try not to give it all away on podcasts or anything like that because I actually believe this or not.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I pulled someone over about two months ago and they said hey, yeah, we were watching your show at that house and come to find out.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: The house she was talking about is a house that I've hit a successful search warrant on.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Basically, those criminals were trying to study me and understand what it is that I'm doing on traffic stops.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: That's working.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: They're wanting to know how I'm getting the drugs.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: So, very cautious and careful after I heard them say that, I was like man, and that's actually a big talking point in my class is criminals are constantly evolving, so we have to be careful.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: They're studying us just like we study them.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally do.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: I totally agree.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Offline, you and I can have some conversations where we both understand what we're talking about.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: But I totally agree.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think they're always out there watching.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: They're always out there trying to learn and get the upper hand on what are the latest tactics and that type of stuff.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Whether you're talking dope on the street or you're talking human trafficking or money or guns any of the stuff that you're looking for in an addiction right, I'm assuming you're looking for all that stuff.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: So I always say it's criminal activity in a whole.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: It might be human trafficking, sex trafficking, drug trafficking, large amounts of US currency.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Those are some of the major categories that we're looking for.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I've seen it to where people use it and they're catching DUIs with it.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Just because you're taking that little bit of extra time to talk to people and you don't know what the criminal element is and you spend that little bit more time looking into it, so, yeah, you can do all kinds of things with it.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: I've seen guys find people that are counterfeiting money.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Or I heard a story the other day of the guy was extremely nervous and the officer just took that little bit of extra time to sit there and have consensual conversation and the guy ended up saying, yeah, you can search through my truck, go ahead and gave him consent and the guy come across multiple flash drives full of child pornography.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: So you never know what the criminal element is.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: It's hard to specify on what it is, but those are the major ones that we're looking for.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that you know, unless you're in law enforcement right, and you deal with hundreds or thousands of contacts consensual contacts and you start to understand human behavior.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: You know we get this rap, that we're stereotyping, or you know we're picking on the X population or the X race or the X, whatever it may be.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: You know and that's not necessarily the case it's the human behavior and the abnormalities that we're seeing and we can't sometimes, we can't put our finger on it Sometimes, and the abnormalities that we're seeing and we can't sometimes we can't put our finger on it.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we can look at a situation and be like you know what, something's not right.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: You know I don't know the internal workings of the cell phone when it rings, but I know what it sounds like when it rings and I know there's shit happening inside, this case that's making it ring.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: So I take a look at this and you look at that situation.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you're the same way you look at it.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: You're like man, I get behind this dude.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: He's switching lanes.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: You know he passes by me on the road.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: Everybody else looks hey, there's a cop and this guy's staring straight ahead.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: You know, with little things like this yeah, hands at 10 and 2 like nobody ever drives, you know, or the whole family waves at you at once.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: It's just those things where you're like, okay, something ain't right.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: And then, uh, you have to have that sixth sense to dig in a little bit, dig a little bit deeper and then all of a sudden, you're turning a you know a white light to the rear traffic stop, into a felony drug bust or guns or a dead body or whatever it may be and you know that is the cool part about being in law enforcement and it's the cool part.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: honestly, just talking to you right now I'm more excited than I've been in a long time about law enforcement because I've had kind of a negative connotation about it.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: But I'm seeing somebody that is a full of energy for it and it it's really cool.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: So I commend you for what you're doing.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: So, as you're out there in Oklahoma doing your thing up and down the interstates and freeways looking for criminal activity, how often do you stumble into it and tell me a little bit about that?
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Oh man, so I can't really put a definite number on it.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: You go through cold spells, just like maybe with you and your investigations you might go cold for a little bit and then boom, one thing pops up and it's just bam, bam, bam.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: It comes in waves sometimes.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Um, I know when I hit my first pretty good drug seizure it came in waves like one month to the date.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: I still have one of those cases still ongoing and I cannot wait to tell that story.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Um, a lot of it just comes in waves.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: And then you might go through another month or two where you don't hit anything major.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: You're getting your user amounts from town and stuff like that, but you're not really hitting big amounts and once again it might come in waves.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And here it goes again.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: You get three or four in a week or three or four in a month.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: It's all different time frames Tell me about that first traffic stop, how it unplayed, how it unfolded, and then what it did to you as far as lighting a passion or a fire inside you.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Okay, so it's so funny that you say lighting a passion, because I just told the story today.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Um, so I had been to a few classes in interdiction at this point, but I hadn't hit anything.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: I mean just your local user amounts.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Um, so I was like, man, am I just?
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: Am I looking at it wrong?
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Do I not know what I'm doing here?
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Maybe this isn't my thing?
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Um, I was talking to God that night in my patrol car and I was driving around and I said, god, if, if this isn't my forte, then just show me that.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Show me what I need to get into.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: If it is, please give me a sign.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: And man, I swear I don't think it was.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: 10 to 20 minutes later, I come up to one of our larger highways that run through town and I see a white Range Rover pass me with a cracked taillight.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: It grabs my attention and I go ahead and pull out on it and I can tell by the sticker color on their plate that their tag is out of date.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to go ahead and stop this car.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: Just see what's going on with it.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: And immediately to my presence, as I pull out into the roadway, they deter off and try to turn into a fast food restaurant.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: And I just thought to myself and I had that feeling that you were talking about earlier.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: You can't necessarily say what exactly is wrong, but you can feel it.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Especially when you've made thousands of traffic stops in your career, you start to feel that You're like man, something's not right with this.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: I felt like to my presence.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: That guy wanted to get away from me.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: So I stop him, I go up and immediately can hear a shakiness in his voice as he's talking and just a lot of science.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: He kept trying to force the idea to me that he buys and sells cars for a living.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Just a bunch of stuff that wasn't asked.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I think the only things that had been said to him at that point were sir, can I get your license and your insurance?
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: You know not a whole lot more, and just extremely nervous to my presence.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: So he ends up telling off on himself and saying hey, man, I know you probably stopped me because those plates don't come back to my car.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Well, at that point in time I hadn't even ran his plates, I just initiated the stop and went out with him.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: So he's sitting there telling off on himself and then he ends up telling me, you know, I said man, why are you so nervous?
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: And I also asked him why are you profusely sweating?
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: He says, because he's Native American is why he is sweating that way.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: And I said well, hey, man, I'm Native American too and I'm not sweating.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: It's 38 degrees outside, yeah.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: And so why are you so nervous?
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm nervous because I'm going to go to jail and at that point in time I had said nothing about that.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: So I go ahead and, due to that factor, I'm noticing this criminal element.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: This is not a normal stop.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: I go ahead and get him out.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: He was not able to produce a license or insurance or any paperwork on this car.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Well, I pat him down for weapons because of his behavior and I feel a hard ball-like object in his front, I think left pocket, and as I change my angling to kind of look, I can see a baggie patrolling out of his pocket, commonly associated with, you know, meth.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: I said, hey, man, is that dope in your pocket?
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: He goes, yeah.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: So I take it out and drop it.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Well, that was like 60 grams in his pocket.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: So I'm like, wow, that's the biggest I had ever hit at that point.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: So I'm already very fired up and like, okay, doing something good here.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Well, I take him back to my car, put him in and I continue to be cordial.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: You'll learn that If you're not freaking out and acting crazy a lot of times people are a lot more likely to work with you and just stay professional in what you're doing.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Well, that guy ended up telling me hey, I remember you from the jail this, that and the other.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: And I said basically man, hey, what else am I going to find in that car?
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: And he said you're going to find fentanyl.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: And actually ended up telling me exactly where to find it up under his seat, in the blue container.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: And he said, hey, don't touch it unless you got gloves on.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: It was kind of before the fentanyl influx in my area, before we had really seen it, so I was extremely nervous.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: It was a pretty large quantity of fentanyl.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: And then there was a.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: There was a couple more bags of uh, I think methamphetamines and like mixed pills and stuff in the back seat.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: So it ended up being a pretty good one, but, um, yeah, so was it pure fentanyl, or was it pure fentanyl?
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: So, for whatever reason and you will ask around a lot of other places that I've spoke with they all got the M30s, yep, little blues.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: So we did not get that.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know why or what was different about my area, but we honestly didn't.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Did not see a whole lot of M30s come in.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: It was like almost immediately as the fentanyl epidemic was trying to kick off, somehow or another, some powder wound up in my small community and that's all the users would go to.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: To this day that's still all they're going to.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: They never wanted the Blueys back the M30s.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: So basically, we have chased pure powder ever since then.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: So the M30s.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: For anybody listening that doesn't know, m30s are a pill.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: It was a 30 milligram OxyContin, I believe that is what the original pill looks like.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: But down in Mexico in super labs they take a bunch of just crap, binder material but fentanyl with it, press it out into a pill that's a little round, blue says 30 on one side and on the other, and they package them in what's called a boat.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: A boat is 1000 pills, so they'll package them in these boats.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: And then my last murder was actually a cartel murder and we chased a bunch of cartel people around and they were obviously bringing drugs up from Mexico and like a boat of M30s was just like a freebie, it was literally just extra stuff.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: It was like selling, you know, giving your first taste of crack to a kid on a school corner, literally what it was.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: So they'd go down there and pick up pounds of meth or money or guns or whatever and they're like I heard a couple of boats of M thirties just give them away.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: So these cartel members were up here in the Portland Oregon area.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: You know, literally you know they would either sell them for money they got them for free, so it would be extra money on top, or they'd literally give them away to uh you know, and bring people in to their little criminal organization.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: So that's what an M30 is.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: It's a fentanyl pill that originates out of Mexico.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: So that case, so you ended up getting the 60 grams of meth, the fentanyl, and that case is adjudicated now I'm assuming he's been sentenced.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, he has been sentenced.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: He went eight years federal time.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Nice, nice, nice.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Well, well, dude, that is super cool, man, um, you always remember your first, you know.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Um, I guess you remember your first of everything, but you always remember your first, you know, and the way that made you feel.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: I ran a dog in alaska and you know, I remember my first traffic stop that I made with the dog and I got some weed out of like a person's trunk and I was so excited and we went up to Anchorage and we put our dogs on.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, this is something.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: So you talk about those things that just look out of place, right?
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: So have you ever got the chance to do any kind of interdiction on, say, ups or FedEx or anything like that?
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: I've definitely stopped seeing these, but I don't know that I've ever stopped a FedEx truck or anything yet.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: So what we did is we, we had our canines and we went to a.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: I was in a small town called Kenai.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I was about 25 miles South of Anchorage as a crow flies, but about a three hour drive because you got to go around the mountains and my canine was a drug canine.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: We took it up to Anchorage and we went to the FedEx and UPS facilities and we'd go and we'd go work the conveyor belt so, as the packages are coming through, we would be having our dogs sniff, you know, and our dogs would indicate.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: And you talk about those things that are out of the ordinary, right?
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: There are thousands of packages going through UPS that, um, are just that they're brown paper cardboard boxes and they're, you know, the Isidore Shagnasty from Bob Smith and that's it.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: And then you get the one that is from Uncle Bobby and it's a large box and there's bows all over it and ribbons, and somebody has taken the time to draw crayon flowers all over the packaging and it just sticks out like a sore thumb.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: And you're looking at them and you're like, hmm, one of these things are not like the other, you know, and you got like bows and ribbons and all this other crap and then all of a sudden you put your dog on it.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Your dog hits on it.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: You're like that's really strange and this is supposed to be a remote control train set for you know little Jimmy from uncle Bobby.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: And then you get a warrant for it.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: You open it up and there's a kilo of cocaine in there and uh, but it's just that person going the extra mile to try to conceal their behavior or make it look in air quotes normal.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: And I remember that one.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: That exact thing happened to us.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: It was my first time ever doing an interdiction like that.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: So we, uh, we have this package, we've got a kilo of Coke.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: We take the kilo out, we put in a gram back of cocaine back in it, or whatever.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: We wire the box up with a tracker and the tracker would give a solid alarm until the tracker.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: So we repackage the box, tape it up, and then there was a little wire that goes across the tape seal.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: And when they open it up and they break that wire, then it went from a solid tone that we're listening to on our radios on a radio frequency to an intermittent beeping tone and that told us the package had been opened.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: We take this package and we dress up like a UPS driver and we go deliver it to the house and then we watch it.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: So we're all in surveillance and as the package goes from there, it gets put into a truck and it gets driven to another location and another location and people are driving all over the city of Anchorage with a kilo of cocaine in the back of their car and they go from here and they go to the mall and watch a movie.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: And you're like you know, for me I was so young I'm like a kilo of cocaine.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Are you kidding me?
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: You know how come these people aren't taking it and protecting it and it ends up at their final place.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Well, all those places you go to, those are all places you can hit with a search warrant, right?
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: So at the end of the night, finally, the package gets opened and we all go in and do the bust.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: And it was my first experience you mentioned DEA ever working with DEA and being a small town professional cop and then being involved in a big drug bust like that with DEA there might be some lack of professionalism that happens and it was a shock to me.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: I'm like holy crap, you know what is going on and I remember they're like DEA, last three letters you're ever going to see, and I'm like holy buckets.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: And then, anyway, that was my first experience, but you're talking about remembering the first.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: It was fun.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, it was fun.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: So there's drugs everywhere, there's narco-terrorism everywhere and it's related to every single crime that is out there, from burglary to domestic violence, to murder, to alcohol.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's all related.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: It's all connected Everything.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, sir.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: I haven't had a single murder that wasn't related to drug or alcohol, unless, um, I'm talking about an infant murder or something like that but for the most part they're all related to drugs and alcohol and it's just such a black eye for our community it sucks.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: I would believe that Child porn, methamphetamine, sex crimes, I mean all that stuff goes together, yes, but people don't get it.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: They're like ah, you know, it's a victimless crime.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: It's not a victimless crime.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: You just don't Exactly, you, you're just not connecting the dots.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: And they don't think that those people are affecting everybody.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: You know, they're all just affecting themselves.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: They've got a personal problem and it's like no, eventually it's going to catch you and those are going to be the people that are robbing, stealing, doing everything they can to feed their addiction.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: They're going to come take your personal belongings because of their addiction and I just have a problem with that.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: And, like you're saying, then it ties off into every other crown.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Anyway.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: So you've mentioned a couple of times about faith.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: You mentioned God and stuff.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: What does your faith walk look like?
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: Definitely not strong enough, man I don't think I've ever been All right, but no so.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: My grandpa and actually his father, as well as my great-grandpa they were all Pentecostal preachers.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: I grew up in a Pentecostal church growing up, and I still hold my faith very, very high.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Definitely not as close as I need to be with God, but I definitely let him walk with me and I definitely tell him all the time before work, a lot of information.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: But, man, I'll be getting ready for work and throwing on my shirt, I'll have my work shirt on, running around in my boxers, getting my boots shined and everything, and it's just my deal.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: I'll turn on a little bit of music and that's me in God's time.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: And I like to just tell him use me, use me for what you designed me for.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: And I don't know why.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: It's almost choking me up to say it right now, but that is a big part of my career.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Well good, dude, it's pretty awesome, I think, that choking you up because it's the Holy Spirit man.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: I think it's great.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: You know, you got to believe in something right.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: So I've always played drums during my career in church and stuff like that, and, you know, at times I felt really far away from God.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I felt like, you know, I'm making piss poor decisions, I am just doing things that are destroying my family.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: I'm totally self-centered, thinking about Aaron, you know, and I know that God is there, but he's kind of behind me and I'm walking away from him, you know.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: But it's always been nice to know that you can just turn around and he's right there with you and he's protecting you.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: And, at the end of the day, I don't care how south things went, there's always somebody to pray to.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: And it was really, really cool see God's hand.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: In my life and throughout my entire career, the worst things that I dealt with, the absolute worst murders and deaths and scenes that I dealt with that I didn't understand in the moment.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: God, why is this happening?
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: Why is my partner getting killed in the line of duty and I'm directly involved in this?
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Why am I cutting down a 12-year-old that hung herself and in the moment it was infuriating, hindsight being 2020, you can look back and you see that silver lining, you see the work and you know it made me available for my daughter when she was going through stuff and it's just, it's super cool man.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: So keep that faith, bro.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Keep it.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: Definitely will.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so did.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate you coming on and talking about um, just yourself and opening up and being vulnerable and talking about your mom and your dad and do a little bit about your background.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know there's some sexy stuff to introduction and doing all that kind of stuff.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: We can tell war stories all day, but I don't think that's where the rubber meets the road right, it's in the humanity, it's in the faith, it's in the family, it's in all of that stuff that really helps us survive this career.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Because a robot could come out and do what we do, but being a human being and being able to talk your way in and out of things and if you wouldn't have been cool to that dude in the jail and you wouldn't have been cool to him that night, you could have opened up that fentanyl and you would be, we wouldn't be having this conversation, you'd be post number 364 on the Opsredown Memorial page.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: You know it would be a completely different world.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: So I really appreciate you coming out and chatting bro.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely man.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so what's next in your career?
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: What are you doing?
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: And I understand you're teaching some classes.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: Tell me about that.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: Next in your career, what are?
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: you doing and I understand you're teaching some classes.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Tell me about that.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so to be honest with you, the teaching stuff come out of nowhere.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: I've told this before, but it's a little incentive, pay and stuff, and I just thought I'm one of those guys that one of my biggest things in my own head is why would I ever want to be mediocre at the career path that I chose?
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: I just don't see myself like that.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: I don't understand people that think like that.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: So I was like, yeah, I'm going to go better myself, I'll go get this done, just so I have it.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: I'll have that put up on the shelf and when I decide to do something with it it'll be time.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, you get to the last day and, for those that might be listening that aren't in the law enforcement realm, you go through a week-long course of basically learning how to teach.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: You have to get up and do a lot of speaking in front of the classroom and all these people.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: It's very nerve-wracking, honestly, and I'm a talker, so you don't get to pick a lot of your topics, they just give you a word.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: I think I got the word arch and got told to get up there and speak about it for two minutes and things like that, but by the end of the week you have had to build a PowerPoint, you have had to give several presentations and then you have to give up and actually teach about something.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: Up and actually teach about something.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Well, it just only made sense to talk about interdiction, something that I truly run every day, and I had several people locally that were in my class with me and we had to give pros and cons to everybody.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: It was really cool to hear those guys say hey, he's actually talking about something he does every night.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, we hear this guy on the radio.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: He is, he's searching cars, he's stopping people, he's looking for these things and he really does get out there and do that stuff.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: So he's talking from his heart.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: I was like, man, that's kind of cool because you know as well as I do, cops aren't soft.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: We're not mushy towards each other, not at all.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: So then a few guys that were in the class and some surrounding agencies said hey, I want to take one of your classes, are you going to put one on teaching about that stuff?
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: So I got it put together and I didn't just go all out, but I put some things together, made me a PowerPoint, got a little place to do it and, man, I had a pretty good turnout, like first class.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: 17 guys showed up and I'm like, wow, I did not expect this.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: I was actually really nervous and I'm like, okay, man, I'll get up here and give this my best shot.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: And I did.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: And I got pretty good feedback after the class, which was really cool.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: And then from there it just kind of took off.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: Hey, can you come to my agency, hey can you come to mine?
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: And then it started we'll pay you this, we'll pay you this.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: So I started doing that.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: And then Jeremy Ellison with Dynamic Police Training reached out to me and we kind of started talking for a few weeks and he reached out with a job offer and said hey, I want you to teach for me and I want to send you all over the US, because I had been staying in Oklahoma that whole time.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: So a little nerve-wracking.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: I'm not much of a flying around on a plane guy.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: I get a little nervous, yeah.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Well, good for you, dude.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: It's awesome that you're finding that passion and getting out and talking and teaching about it.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right, it is nerve-wracking teaching those first few classes and you're in front of your peers, right?
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: And in law enforcement, you talk about us not being mushy.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: That's like an understatement.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: We will literally eat our own.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: The only time you're not getting talked about is when you're in the room.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: As soon as you walk out, everybody's talking smack.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: That's just the way we are.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: And the and uh, the fact that you, you know, have the balls to get up there in front of your people and talk about something especially.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: It's so young in your career and you're talking to people that have been doing this, you know, for decades and you're the one giving instructing.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: That takes a lot.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: I know, I've been there and, uh, you know there's so many parallels between what you're doing and what I did.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Um, it it's really bringing me back to about 2002, 2003, because there's a lot of the same stuff you're talking about that I've been through.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: So I totally get it, man.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: So good for you for doing that.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: And, dude, your new adventure with Jeremy, that's going to be pretty awesome for you.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: When do you start doing that?
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: So we've already started booking out a few classes.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: I've got some in, I think, west Virginia, illinois, iowa.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: We just got one in Texas, we're working on some in California.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: So they're popping up all over.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: I even think we might be working one up in Oklahoma here soon together, kind of as a combination class.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: Good for you, buddy, good for you.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: So, as we kind of wrap this up, looking forward in your career, I assume you want to stay on this interdiction train and ride it out as long as you can tie in the mom and dad drama and stuff, because a lot of people see me and they think who's this blonde haired, blue eyed, you know golden boy that's had everything handed to him and it's like no like, trust me, I've had my own personal experience and you work that into interdiction and it's just helped me, I don't know meet a lot of really cool people and interact with the public in a different way and I don't know I couldn't see myself really getting off and doing a whole lot more.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: I love working narcotics and helping families.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: I think that one of the coolest parts about working interdiction is seeing the turnarounds, seeing the people that have actually listened to me and say, hey, if you cooperate, work with me here, we'll see what we can do.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: And those people that I've gotten turned back around and maybe we got them sentenced to go to a rehab or sober living or something and they've completed those programs and now they're out.
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: It's the best feeling in the world to see them.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: Just this week I had somebody come up and shake my hand at the police department hey, thank you for what you did for my daughter.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: And like man, I'm nobody.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: I'm not doing anything great and grand that anybody else in this entire career field could not go out and do their self.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: But those are the most rewarding times.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: They feel really good.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Dude, there's not a whole lot of wins in this career.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: You know, nobody calls us when everything is going good.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: Nobody calls us to celebrate Christmas dinner with them.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: They call us when shit has went south and they need somebody to regain order in their chaotic world.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: So take those little wins where you can.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: My wife and I so.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: In 2010, we moved from Alaska down to the Portland Oregon area.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: I retired out of law enforcement in 2023.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Area.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: I retired out of law enforcement in 2023.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: In 2023, we went back to Alaska for the first time in a decade and it's Christmas time and I'm walking out of a local Safeway in a neighboring town that I worked in and as I walk past the bell ringer, I look at her and I make eye contact with her and I recognize her as a lady named Stacy who I used to deal with all the time in law enforcement when I worked up there, and Stacy was a drug user.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: She had a couple of little kids that were kind of hellions.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: She was into identity theft and all that other stuff, and I arrested Stacy more times than I can imagine and I remember interviewing her one day and I'm like Stacey the truth will set you free.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: She's like Aaron, the truth is going to send me to jail.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: So that was my deal.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Well, as I'm walking down, it's now been a decade, 15 years and I walk past her and I see her and I get outside and it's winter time and I turn back around.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: I'm like I got to go talk to this girl.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: So I go back in.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, are you Stacy?
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: She's like, yeah, who are you?
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, hey, I said I'm Aaron Turnage.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: And she's like, oh, my gosh.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: And she stood up and started crying and gave me a huge hug and she's like you completely changed my life.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: You have no idea how much you changed my life.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: You impacted my kid's life because of the interactions you treated us.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: I'm clean, I'm sober, I'm doing this now.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: You know, my kid has grandkids, I'm a grandmother and she just shared her whole life story with me and it was really cool.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: You know, I was crying that night as I stood in the entryway of Safeway there.
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: It was really cool just to have that moment and realize you don't see those things right, you don't.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: I've arrested her.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: I've arrested her and, as far as I knew, she'd overdosed somewhere and was dead and never thought about me again, but somewhere in the back of her mind we plant these little seeds and you're absolutely right, anybody can do it.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: But that comes back to treating people like human beings.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: It comes back to treating people like you would want to be treated.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: I step into an interview room with a child molester that just molested his daughter or murdered his wife, and I can't treat them like a POS.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: I and I can't treat them like a POS.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: I have to treat them like a human being and all that ethical and moral crap like killing somebody.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: I got to put that outside the room and just talk to them like a human and you make that connection and build that bond and that relationship.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: That is what it's all about and I think that is what is so awesome about people like you in law enforcement, where it's not just about a stat, it's not just about a rock in a box, it's taking the time to hit people at a human level, and there's not enough of that in law enforcement today.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: So I would agree with that.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you for that, my man.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Well, hey, dude, I really appreciate you taking the time to chat.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: Um, so if somebody wanted to go out and find you, if I know we have law enforcement listening to this.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Where could they find information about your classes?
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: So you can go on to dynamicpolicetrainingcom.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: I've got a full bio on there.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: You can reach out to me, you can schedule, you can look at classes, even if you don't look at mine.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of other great classes on there as well.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: Jeremy, my boss, he's got a trap mate class and everything else on there, so you can do that, or you could reach out to me on Facebook if you've got any questions or anything like that.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: I don't mind at all, and what's your Facebook name?
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: Brady Bailey Beautiful.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: All right, man.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: Hey Duel, thank you so much.
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: I'm going to wrap this up.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, Thank you guys so much for sticking around for the show.
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: You know, and everything on this podcast is entertaining, educational, provides value, and we try to do it in such a way that's vulnerable and you know, I think tonight hit all of those right.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: You don't know about interdiction, you don't know about law enforcement, you don't know about, you know the weird cues and signs that people give you.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: But that's what we talked about.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: It's entertaining and it's awesome to talk to somebody that is still in the field doing this every single night, making your streets a safer place.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, come back next week for another amazing show that is, a Murders to Music podcast.