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From Nightmare to Success: Augie Ghilarducci's Comeback Story Asking for Help: The Path to a Successful Second Chance · Nightmare Success In and Out

• 0:00
  What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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  Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
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  Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
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  nightmares and set yourself free.
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  We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
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  Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
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  These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad.
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  There's some humor, but hopefully you can come away with
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  a nugget of something that'll help you knock down some of the
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  prisons you built up in your own mind.
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  All right. Welcome back, nightmare success
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  in and out. Listeners, this is where you
• 0:34
  come from. What happens when your worst
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  fear becomes your reality? How do you adapt, survive,
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  overcome? Set yourself free?
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  Don't forget to subscribe, follow, share, do all those
• 0:44
  things. It helps the show.
• 0:46
  OK folks, I know you know, you come here to hear these comeback
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  stories and what people can do with their second chances.
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  I am so excited to be interviewing my guests because I
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  am blown away by what he's been able to do.
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  His his story is a true nightmare success, comeback
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  story, Augie. And I want to make sure that I
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  pronounce his name right. Gillarducci is that right?
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  Gillarducci, Gillarducci, Gillarducci.
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  And I've had I've had two Italian guys on here the last
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  two times and it's it's I don't always get that right.
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  Gillarducci, Gillarducci, Augie is easier, yes, but Gilarducci
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  isn't that hard. That's not that hard.
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  But Auggie is the founder and creator of Second Opportunity Re
• 1:41
  entry program, which I want to talk a lot about that because
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  it's it's an incredible program that he's created.
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  And he knows all about Second Chances because he owned and
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  operated a successful financial planning firm for 15 years.
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  And as he said, he made a series of bad decisions that led him to
• 2:00
  being convicted of some white collar crimes.
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  Augie served 13 years in the federal prison system.
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  And I mean, that's a long time. I, I had a five year sentence.
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  And then when I, when I read something like that, it takes my
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  breath away when somebody's gone for longer than five years or 10
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  years. But thirteen years is just an
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  incredible amount of time. But, you know, something
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  fascinating happened with him when he was in prison.
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  There's a couple of different things that happened.
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  But I thought one of the most interesting things was is that
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  while he was in prison, he was selected by the warden to
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  participate in a community outreach program.
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  What did this allow him to do? Well, he spoke to high schools,
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  colleges, business businesses for almost a decade.
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  And while he was in, he wanted to help people.
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  The guy's got a brain. He, he's smart and he developed
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  various life skills and employment readiness programs
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  and he taught those to his fellow inmates.
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  So what was he going to do when he got out?
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  He got out in 2017. So upon his release, he turned
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  to that passion and he started putting together programs that
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  were were dealing with incarceration, addiction,
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  trauma, loss and other life changing events to rebound from
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  setbacks to start down a new path.
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  This became the genesis, the idea, and he became the founder
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  of the Second Opportunity Program.
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  What does that do? Well, it's got it consists of
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  five proprietary courses focused on employment readiness,
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  financial literacy, life skills and re entry.
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  The second opportunity program is used in jails and prisons,
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  substance abuse recovery centers, halfway houses,
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  probation departments and with veterans and outreach youth
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  programs. This is unreal.
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  This is exactly, and, and sometimes I wish we would, you
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  know, go ahead and hit the record button before we get
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  started, because it's, it's exactly what Augie and I were
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  talking about beforehand. It's exactly what people in re
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  entry need. It's, it's one of the unknowns
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  when you go through this process of, of, of prison and, and, and
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  re entry is the biggest unknown of all of it, believe it or not,
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  trying to get back in society. And he's, he's actually creating
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  the tools with these people and in over 20 states that that he's
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  expanding this opportunity for people who need this service.
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  I can't wait to jump into all this.
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  But before I do, I want to recognize our show sponsor, Auto
• 4:36
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• 5:09
  Auto Plaza direct telling Brent from nightmare success sent you
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  Auggie welcome in. Thank you so much for making
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  time to be here today. I appreciate it.
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  Thank you for inviting me, It's my pleasure to be here.
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  So Auggie, your, your story is, is like I said it, it is a true
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  nightmare success story because it's, it's you.
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  You were dealt with all this adversity.
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  You had success. You hit the bottom and started
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  walking your way back up the stairs.
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  You know, as a kid growing up, we're, well, tell me a little
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  bit about you as a kid growing up, were you always wired that
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  way that you just bounced back up or what was your life like?
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  No, I don't think so. And if I did, I didn't realize
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  that I was, I mean, I was disengaged.
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  How's that? I, I in school, I really was
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  disengaged. I'm sure I got C's and B's and
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  the occasional D in high school, probably my junior year, I woke
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  up, not quite sure why. I think my dad said you'll never
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  get into college with those grades, so you better plan on
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  getting a job. And that woke me up.
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  So, you know, I, I, and I think part of it, Brent, to be very
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  honest, I had two terrific parents.
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  I come from a great home. So I didn't have a lot of
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  adversity to face. So I didn't have, I didn't, I
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  did, you know, I had disappointment certainly, but I
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  never can say that I, I just got knocked down.
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  And so that's why I, I guess I didn't know what was in there
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  until I actually had to go through that experience.
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  Until you really you, you were dealing with it.
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  So when you got out of high school, what was your next step?
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  I went to college. I went to Saint Joseph's College
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  in Rensselaer, IN which sadly, the school actually closed while
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  I was away. You know, smaller schools are
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  having a harder time surviving and it closed its doors.
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  But I did really well in college.
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  It's, you know, I kind of found my groove with grades and, and I
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  was involved in the student government.
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  And so I, I kind of started to feel like I could, I could
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  achieve some things. Got your confidence?
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  Yes. So you roll out of there, you're
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  a confident guy. You, you've done some things.
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  What do you roll into? Well, I'm going to conquer the
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  world at this point. And I got involved in financial
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  services and, and in sales, and then I became a branch manager.
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  And then, you know, mistake number one, as I look back at a
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  lifetime of mistakes, mistake #1 decided that I wanted to leave
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  the very large company that I was working for to create my own
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  company. Because of course, at that age,
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  I could do it. Conquer the world.
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  Yeah. So that's what I did.
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  I I. How would you have been at that
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  time? Yeah, you were young.
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  So you broke away. You're with a great company, big
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  company. You're like, man, I got this
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  covered. I'm going to, I'm going to go
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  step out here and, and, and do it even bigger.
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  Yep. So how'd it go?
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  Well, it went well for a while for actually it went well for a
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  long while. Probably, you know, 1314 years,
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  1213 years, something like that. At one point I had 40 sales reps
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  and we had nice office and you know, but I, I have this thing
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  that, that others have and I get bored.
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  And that's what happened. I mean, that was for me as I
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  look back and I can be completely honest with myself at
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  this point from the standpoint that that's all behind me, But I
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  got bored and I was looking for new things and I was introduced
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  to somebody and, and not knowing he was just, it was the wrong
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  people. And I went down a path that,
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  that I don't even know how I, how I could have done it because
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  I was raised better than that. I knew better than that.
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  And I went down a path that just like every day became worse and
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  worse. And I was, I was being
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  investigated for two years. So that would have been from
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  2000 to 2002. And I knew it because business
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  associates and employees were receiving grand jury subpoenas.
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  And then I waited. Then I was indicted.
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  So after two years of being investigated, which every day
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  waking up. Is its own little.
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  Nightmare. It's its own nightmare.
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  I'm curious with with the people that you said you connected
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  with, did you Augie feel like that was a bad connection from
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  the beginning or did was it once you got into it, it started to
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  feel like, oh man, I'm I'm in, I'm in something I probably
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  shouldn't have. Actually, that's it.
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  It happened that way. So for, for a while, I didn't
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  think it was a bad connection in the beginning and I thought that
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  this was, was something that I would enjoy doing and I did.
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  But there was that day that came that I, I realized where I'd put
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  myself and, and it was entirely on me.
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  I mean, I, you know, and that's, I like to say that that's when I
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  really committed my crime is that when I knew what happened
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  and I didn't take action about it because in the beginning I, I
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  really didn't know what was going on, right?
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  Once I figured it out, I didn't take action.
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  And and that's, you know, that's how.
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  Things so when you're going when you're going through this for
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  two years, we're at that time. Were you married?
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  Do you have kids? What was what was going on in
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  your the other part of your world?
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  Well, I was I was going through a divorce.
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  I did have two young children and so that, I mean, it was
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  affecting. So your world was upside down.
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  Completely, you know, and and you know, one of the mistakes I
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  made that as I look back, I siloed myself.
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  I didn't, I didn't share anything with anyone as far as
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  what was going on. I was just kind of hoping things
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  would just go away. Yeah.
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  And, and obviously that's not, that's not a good plan.
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  Yeah, you know, and I, I think it's, I think it's interesting
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  because the so many people I talked to, including the my own
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  experiences, that when you get into this and it especially when
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  you get into the federal piece, it almost feels like you you're
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  you're, you're dropped into this hole that you think you can step
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  out of. And then all of a sudden you
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  feel like that the holes gotten wider and it's gotten deeper and
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  it's gotten darker and, and there's just, you can't grab
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  onto anything. And, and that feeling of loss of
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  control. And when we're guys that are
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  used to being in control, that we can, because the reason why
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  we get into business and do the things that we do and create is,
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  is that we think we have the ability to make a difference and
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  change things. And when you are waking up every
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  day and you realize that you're not, it's, it's like a, it's a
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  weird feeling because it's, it's not what you're used to.
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  It's not your vibe. And, and it's a hard thing to
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  work with because it's a nightmare.
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  You wake up with every day, you go to bed with every day.
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  And you did that for two years. You know, it's just you, you
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  wake up with it, you fight, you go to bed with it, you wake up
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  with it. And it's, it's, it's, you know,
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  when you, when you got to the, to the end of those two years,
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  were you with the indictment? Was your was your thought is I'm
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  going to fight this thing through trial or was your
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  thought is I want to get this off my back and and do some
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  type? Of no, I was, I was one of the
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  really foolish ones. My thought was, I'm going to go
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  to trial on this. I never intended for this to
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  happen. And so I want to, I want to
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  explain that. I want to be able to to, you
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  know, tell the jury that I didn't want this to happen.
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  I don't want these people to lose their money.
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  It wasn't my intent. I didn't set out for this.
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  It's how it turned out. But it wasn't my design.
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  And so that was where my mindset was, is that I was going to go
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  to trial on this. And I did.
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  So I did. Yeah.
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  What was your attorney's feeling about that at the time?
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  That's a whole different story that I you know, he was a nice
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  man, but you know, he was at this point by the time we got
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  there, by the time we got indicted, I was broke spending
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  money on on. Which is very common, by the
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  way. Very common.
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  And so I was given a federal defender and I spoke with him
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  and he was very confident, but then he but bugged out because
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  he had another case come up. So I went to a panel lawyer.
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  So he wasn't part of the federal defender office.
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  He was just an sole practitioner that, you know, didn't even have
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  a photocopy machine. And we're going up against the
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  federal government. United States and America.
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  Resources and yeah. And so it was, you know, it was
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  just, it was a bad situation that I put myself in.
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  And I realized after the opening statements what a mistake I had
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  made. And the trial ended up going
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  like 10 1/2 weeks. But I realized at the opening
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  statement that this is not going to go well.
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  I had no idea how bad it was going to get.
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  But you know, because we never, we never sat down and looked at
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  the sentencing guidelines. I didn't even know what they
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  were. And that's on me too.
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  I mean, I, you know, I, I should have, I should have looked at
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  the what the risk really was to what I was to, to the.
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  Well, you know, the other thing that I, I think the other thing
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  too argued for people who are listening to this, and there's a
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  lot of people listening to this that haven't gone to prison.
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  One of the thing about the federal system is, is that you
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  can have like 3 or 4 charges, but they can stack those
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  charges. And each time they like, you
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  know, in my case, wire fraud or mail fraud, you know, if you've
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  had a company that's been in business for 30 years and you
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  stack that, you can be looking at hundreds of years.
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  And the, the, the intimidation of that is, is takes your breath
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  away. When you look at the breath of.
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  And I, I do believe this, though, I think that when they,
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  they're used to what 97% of the time people, 98% of the time
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  people who are indicted plea bargain, But those that don't, I
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  think they come harder at those people because they say, this is
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  what we do. We're, we're giving you this
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  way. And I, and then I think if it
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  doesn't go that way, because I've, I've talked to so many,
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  Jeff Martinovich is a guy that had a big, huge hedge fund,
• 15:37
  billion dollar deal. And, and he went and he fought
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  and you know, he ended up getting, I think a 15 year
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  sentence had eight years and that he served.
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  But every story that I hear about that Augie is it feels
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  like that when they get to that 97% and you don't plea, it's
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  like they they bring out the elephant to sit on you and and
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  it becomes that much harder to to get and eat the elephant.
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  Yeah, it's, I would agree in my in my situation, I would
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  absolutely agree with that, that, you know, they, they're
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  not used to people that want to go to trial and they may have a
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  whole different level of preparation they have to do and
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  so on and so forth. And so it creates extra work for
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  them. And, you know, yeah, it was, it
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  was, it was a series of bad decisions.
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  I I should have when it first came out, I should have done the
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  right thing. And that was to get a lawyer and
• 16:31
  go talk to the government, say here's what happened.
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  And I, I don't know what would have happened with that, but I'm
• 16:36
  sure, I'm sure it would not have been 13 years.
• 16:39
  Oh gosh, no, for sure not. And but instead I I took the
• 16:44
  path I took and it turned out the way that it did.
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  So you go through this 10 week trial and you're standing there,
• 16:55
  jury comes out. What's going through your?
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  I was at that point resigned to defeat.
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  I told, I really mean when I say when I heard the opening
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  statement of the government, I didn't like myself, you know, I
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  mean, you know, so I was resigned to defeat but still had
• 17:16
  no idea what I was going to be facing.
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  And so I just remember at that moment, it was right before
• 17:21
  Christmas. And my biggest concern at that
• 17:24
  moment was that they were going to cuff me and send me to MCC
• 17:30
  and that I wasn't going to be able to spend Christmas with my
• 17:32
  family. That was my biggest concern at
• 17:34
  that moment. And the truth is that when they
• 17:38
  read the verdict, the government was jumping up and down that,
• 17:41
  you know, we he's now a flight risk.
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  He needs to get locked up. You know what MCC and the judge,
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  you know, thankfully at that, in that moment said no, no, he
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  showed up here every day. His families come here to sit
• 17:57
  behind him every day. He's not going anywhere.
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  And then he looks at me and points his fingers.
• 18:01
  You know, Mr. Gillarducci, if you run, it's going to get
• 18:02
  worse. And I said I understand.
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  And so I, I was allowed to remain out on bond until the
• 18:09
  following July. I had to, I had to self
• 18:12
  surrender. It was July 18th of 2005.
• 18:17
  That had to be a weird few months knowing because it and
• 18:25
  and when you were sentenced, I'm assuming the sentencing happened
• 18:28
  after the the. Did you have a sense of where
• 18:34
  that was going to come down or was that a shock also?
• 18:37
  No, the shock was that, you know, after after a person's
• 18:41
  convicted, they have to meet with somebody that does a pre
• 18:45
  sentencing report, the PSR. And so I remember a woman came
• 18:50
  out to sit with me. I didn't know her, but I knew
• 18:52
  where she was from. And she's asking me all these
• 18:53
  questions and putting all this information together.
• 18:57
  And the shock came when I was provided with a copy of the PSR.
• 19:01
  And I remember that that some of the the totals as far as the
• 19:05
  sentencing guidelines went up to 420 months.
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  And that's when I was like, this is insane.
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  Yeah, this is absolutely insane. And so when I got sentenced, the
• 19:19
  actual sentence was 190 months, so.
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  And that's a lot. And, and I, you know, I joke
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  about it now and say that not only they sent you to prison,
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  but they turn it into a math problem.
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  Standing there, you know, you got to figure out what it is.
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  You know, I don't know what it is, but.
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  It's well, you know, that's it's so funny because that's in our
• 19:37
  situation that like I got 60 months.
• 19:40
  Well, I was thinking, OK, six. That doesn't say no, that's five
• 19:43
  years. You know, the, the 190 months,
• 19:46
  120 months is, is 10 years. Yeah.
• 19:49
  And and you, you're trying to calculate all that in your head
• 19:52
  while they're saying that it's it's, it'd be easier if they
• 19:55
  just said that the years, I guess.
• 19:58
  And the judge still out allowed me to stay out until stay out in
• 20:02
  those days. So this was 2000.
• 20:05
  The trial in at the end of 2004. So during 2005, the prison, the
• 20:09
  federal prison system was was very overcrowded.
• 20:12
  In fact, an MCC in Chicago where they were sleeping on mattresses
• 20:16
  on the floors in the cells. That's great.
• 20:18
  And that's one of the things that the judge said is that MCC
• 20:21
  is already at crisis. We don't need to waste bed space
• 20:24
  on him. OK.
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  And so, but when I showed up to prison, a self surrender, you
• 20:30
  know, knocking on the door, hey, you got a bed for the next 15
• 20:32
  years. When I showed up to prison, they
• 20:35
  had a, a food strike going on. And so I ended up in the hole
• 20:39
  right off the bat. So it was, I mean those first
• 20:43
  couple of days when I when I walked in, I can't imagine them
• 20:48
  being any darker than they were. Well, I want to get into that
• 20:52
  because that I want to, I want to know what was going through
• 20:58
  your head before we do. I want to recognize the White
• 21:01
  Collar Support Group, who's a sponsor of the show.
• 21:05
  So the Nightmare Success Podcast is sponsored by the White Collar
• 21:07
  Support Group, the world's first support group devoted to people
• 21:10
  navigating the white collar criminal justice system.
• 21:13
  I'm a member of the White Collar Support Group, and I can tell
• 21:15
  you that this is a bunch of people who help each other
• 21:18
  through the criminal justice journey for free.
• 21:21
  Whether you're just starting your journey or you've made it
• 21:23
  through the other side, this is a great space for you.
• 21:25
  You can join us on Zoom Monday, 7:00 PM Eastern Time, 4:00 PM
• 21:29
  Pacific. For information, go to
• 21:32
  prisonist.org. That's prisonist.org.
• 21:35
  Start here. So, Augie, I can't even imagine
• 21:39
  for you being out for those months knowing that you're going
• 21:43
  to knock on the door and say, I'm I'm turning myself in.
• 21:47
  What was that night like before? Fear, fear not knowing what I
• 21:53
  was going to be facing. Unknown, you know, Yeah.
• 21:55
  I mean, I, I had never, I had some speeding tickets in my
• 21:59
  life, but I've never seen the inside of a of a jail or a
• 22:03
  prison cell. I had never had handcuffs put on
• 22:06
  me. I did none of those things.
• 22:08
  So just fear of what I was going to be facing.
• 22:10
  And and I will say this, I quit smoking.
• 22:16
  I quit smoking in on July 18th at 11:55 AM because I had to
• 22:25
  report in at at noon and there's a guy driving the, the, the
• 22:30
  perimeter comes up and says, what are you doing?
• 22:32
  I said, well, I got to surrender.
• 22:33
  He said, get rid of that cigarette and get in there,
• 22:35
  right. So anyway.
• 22:37
  One of the biggest There's a joke somewhere in there that I
• 22:40
  quit smoking at 12:55. Yeah, there's a couple of jokes
• 22:43
  in there, but they weren't funny at the time, you know?
• 22:49
  So I had the physical effects of quitting smoking and I smoked
• 22:55
  for the last six months. I smoked really heavy because of
• 22:59
  no. Everything is stressed, yeah.
• 23:02
  And so that was a part of it. But I'll be honest with you, I
• 23:05
  remember this like it was yesterday and this was back in
• 23:09
  2005. But they, you know, you get
• 23:11
  inside and they, they cuff you up and, and they take your
• 23:14
  clothes that they're going to send home or hold for your, or
• 23:18
  give away, whatever it is, they're not going to hold it for
• 23:20
  you. And then you wait and wait and
• 23:23
  wait and wait. And then somebody from medical
• 23:25
  sees you, and then they bring you down to the cell and they
• 23:29
  open the cell door. And there's a guy sitting on the
• 23:32
  bottom bunk. And he's sitting there in his
• 23:33
  gym shorts. He's not wearing anything else.
• 23:36
  And this guy, first of all, from his chin all the way to his
• 23:42
  feet, was tattoos, all tattoos, all tattoos.
• 23:46
  And he looks like he's been lifting weights since he was two
• 23:50
  years old. I mean, this guy looked like he
• 23:53
  walked out of a magazine. And he looks at me and I, you
• 23:58
  know, they close the door behind and we start talking and, you
• 24:04
  know, it ends up, and I mean, I'm not going to say his name
• 24:08
  out of respect, but he was one of the nicest young men I'd ever
• 24:11
  met. He actually looked out for me.
• 24:13
  I mean, he, you know, he's tell me what's going on and this and
• 24:16
  that. And you know, I'm in there and,
• 24:19
  and it was the first few days I was really, I couldn't get to a
• 24:22
  phone. You were in the hole, right?
• 24:25
  You you went to the hole right when you got in.
• 24:27
  So how long did they leave you in the hole?
• 24:28
  I was in the hole, I want to say 5-6 days.
• 24:31
  Wow, what an entry. What an entry.
• 24:33
  Oh. And on the inside, it's all guys
• 24:36
  that were locked up because they.
• 24:37
  Were because you're not at a camp with that time.
• 24:40
  No, I was at, I was at, I was at sandstone behind the double
• 24:43
  razor wire. And, and you know, yeah, it was,
• 24:47
  it was like, it was an entirely different circumstance.
• 24:53
  It was worse than I imagined it was going to be.
• 24:56
  It was worse. And, and the, the, the physical
• 24:59
  withdrawal from the nicotine, the inability to get to a
• 25:04
  telephone to talk to my family, to let him know that I'm OK
• 25:06
  because I told all of them, I'll be calling you and let you know
• 25:09
  my kids and, and I can't do that.
• 25:11
  And that's weighing on me. And, and, you know, just the
• 25:14
  uncertainty that went along with it.
• 25:16
  Yeah, you're in no man's land. Your your literally.
• 25:18
  Few days were, I mean, that was that for me, that was that was
• 25:23
  that was kind of the break point of, you know, I mean, this is
• 25:27
  this is what it, this is going to be like.
• 25:29
  And, and fortunately it wasn't. I mean, as I said this, this guy
• 25:35
  was really nice And, and I'll just tell a quick Side Story.
• 25:38
  So when I finally get out after five days and I'm sure all I did
• 25:42
  is complain about wanting a cigarette, right.
• 25:44
  Yeah, sure. I, I get out, they put me in one
• 25:47
  of the units I'm in. They call it the trailer park.
• 25:49
  It's just a row of, of bunk beds with tiny lockers next to it.
• 25:53
  Yeah, and I'm wearing a, a size 4X jumpsuit, which I probably
• 26:00
  would be a one axe, you know. And so they're, they're my pant
• 26:04
  legs are dragging way past my feet.
• 26:05
  And I go to the and they, they put me on a top bunk in the
• 26:09
  trailer park and I'm not in there 10 minutes and somebody
• 26:12
  comes up and says, hey, there's somebody at the front door for
• 26:15
  you. And I'm thinking, who in the
• 26:18
  world is looking for me at the front door, right?
• 26:22
  Maybe they decided this was a mistake and they're.
• 26:24
  Going to Yeah, it's all bad dream.
• 26:25
  Yeah. Anyway, go downstairs and
• 26:27
  there's a guy and he said, are you Augie?
• 26:29
  I said I am. And he reaches his hand out to
• 26:31
  shake my hand and he puts a cigarette in my hand.
• 26:35
  We shake hands and he says that's from the guy that I was
• 26:39
  in. The guy that was in the hole
• 26:40
  with you? And he said, he told me you can
• 26:43
  have as many as you want whenever you need them.
• 26:45
  I'm right over there in an H dorm and my name is and you
• 26:49
  could just, you know, I'll find you every day when you're moving
• 26:51
  around. Just tell me.
• 26:52
  And I gave it back to him. I said no, no, I'm good.
• 26:55
  And he said no, he's not. He doesn't want any money.
• 26:57
  Don't worry about it. And 1st on the inside I'm saying
• 26:59
  I'm not getting into debt with anybody at this.
• 27:02
  You know, it's just not going to happen.
• 27:04
  But the other thing that I said is I haven't smoked now for five
• 27:07
  days and it's not as bad today as it was five days ago.
• 27:10
  So I think I want to leave it like this because, you know,
• 27:13
  there was no smoking, that smoking had been in November of
• 27:17
  the previous year. They they banned smoking.
• 27:19
  So I wasn't going to get into it.
• 27:22
  But yeah, so this this guy that when I first saw him, I thought,
• 27:24
  who is this character ends up being just really one of the
• 27:28
  nicest guys. And then in visiting, I met his
• 27:30
  mother and family. I just, you know.
• 27:33
  So it's one of the craziest things about going to prison is
• 27:39
  I didn't you know, I, I didn't have that exact same thing, but
• 27:44
  my buck mate was Romo, who was he would come down a few levels
• 27:49
  and and he was shot caller originally in the Hispanic.
• 27:53
  He couldn't have been a nicer guy.
• 27:55
  I mean, he immediately showed me how to make my bed military
• 27:58
  style. He immediately got open my
• 28:00
  locker and started cleaning it. And he he he introduced me to
• 28:03
  the guy that he thought that that there was a somebody that
• 28:06
  just left the food warehouse. I couldn't believe it.
• 28:09
  It, it, it was, you know, we talk about the unknowns and the
• 28:13
  fears because there's so many things that go through your
• 28:16
  head. And it was like within the first
• 28:18
  hour, once I got to where I was going, I was like, Oh my gosh,
• 28:22
  this is, this is anything that I thought it was going to be, you
• 28:25
  know, and, and I, there was for me, because I didn't go, I went
• 28:29
  to the camp, but one of the things that they told me was
• 28:32
  there wasn't going to be any fences and barbed wire and all
• 28:34
  that. What just so happened that
• 28:36
  Leavenworth had all that and you know, 20-30 years ago they were
• 28:40
  going to try to be a low. So they set themselves up like a
• 28:43
  low and then never got accredited.
• 28:44
  So we were one of like 3 camps that looked exactly like a low,
• 28:48
  but it wasn't a low. But it, that was the only thing
• 28:51
  that kind of freaked me out was I had this in my head that, that
• 28:53
  we were going to be walking into this whatever camp situation.
• 28:57
  And I never liked a camp anyway. But the camp that this one was,
• 29:00
  was the barbed wire and the fence and all that, but not like
• 29:03
  what you went through. Not the same place.
• 29:06
  No, no, it was. I did.
• 29:08
  I did. Ultimately, it took four years
• 29:10
  and then I got to go to the camp.
• 29:11
  I went to Duluth. Coldest place on earth without
• 29:14
  question, you know, But it was a former Air Force Base.
• 29:21
  So they had now believe me when I say this, this was a A50 year
• 29:24
  old movie theater that the the thread on the seats had worn
• 29:28
  through and and one of those old drop down screens with a
• 29:31
  suspended projector, but still on on Sundays during football
• 29:35
  season, you couldn't find a seat.
• 29:37
  And, and it was always a place to go for something to do when
• 29:40
  they had a rec center that that had, you know, a couple of old
• 29:44
  pool tables and, and card tables.
• 29:47
  And they had all kinds of books in there, you know, mostly
• 29:51
  leisure reading type stuff, paperback book.
• 29:53
  So you go in and grab one and and then, you know, the, the
• 29:56
  honor rule was you return it when you're done with it.
• 29:59
  So that it was that was that was a completely different feeling
• 30:04
  when I left Stan Stone to go to Oh, I'm sure it was slightly
• 30:07
  different feeling. I I'm curious, Aggie, with you
• 30:10
  going into the type of prison you went into, knowing the
• 30:14
  amount of time that you in your mind, how will you get to tackle
• 30:17
  that? Like when you walk in, You're
• 30:19
  not this isn't a bad church camp you're at for a week or two or
• 30:23
  the summer. You're you're thinking I'm here
• 30:25
  for more than a decade. Had you processed any of that as
• 30:29
  like how you were going to step? You know, no, I hadn't.
• 30:33
  But I'm busy in my head. I've got an appeal coming and
• 30:41
  after a short time, they, they assigned a lawyer, a guy from
• 30:45
  Wisconsin who actually came to see me.
• 30:47
  And so he's working on my appeal.
• 30:49
  And so I'm, it's going to happen, you know, like everyone
• 30:53
  else, it's going to happen any day now.
• 30:54
  I'm going to get called to R&D and told, you know, pack up your
• 30:57
  leave. So, but I did, I did engage
• 31:01
  pretty quickly. I met a guy who's a friend of
• 31:03
  this day and he's actually from same part of Chicago that that I
• 31:07
  am. We knew some of the same people.
• 31:09
  The difference is I was there five days because I met him the
• 31:12
  first day I went into the into the in the housing unit and he
• 31:16
  had been there 16 years with about two years to go.
• 31:20
  And he told me he used to call me kid, although we were the
• 31:23
  same age, but he told me, kid, let me tell you something.
• 31:27
  Don't go in the TV room. Nothing good happens in the TV
• 31:30
  room. And I will tell you that I
• 31:31
  followed his advice. I rarely went into the TV room.
• 31:34
  I, you know, I sat in the TV room.
• 31:37
  I remember in 2005 when the White Sox, my beloved White Sox,
• 31:41
  won the World Series. That's where I was sitting.
• 31:44
  But otherwise, I really didn't go in there.
• 31:47
  So I stayed real busy. I mean, I got a job working
• 31:49
  education. I was teaching classes at night.
• 31:52
  I, I just stayed real busy with things and kind of, you know,
• 31:56
  create my own reality of, hey, this is, this is good stuff I'm
• 32:01
  doing and that type of thing. No, and I think that's one of
• 32:04
  the important things. You know, this this podcast goes
• 32:06
  into 435 prisons, state prisons, not federal, but I think that's
• 32:11
  a a good tip of nugget of wisdom is, is keep yourself busy.
• 32:16
  You, you try to find things that make you feel like you are
• 32:21
  advancing yourself. I mean, I mean, I remember the
• 32:23
  day that I was really excited that I got forklift certified at
• 32:25
  the food warehouse. You know, it was just things
• 32:27
  like that that, you know, I would normally never have done,
• 32:30
  but I, you know, I was felt like I was accomplishing something.
• 32:33
  When you got into the education thing, that's interesting that
• 32:36
  that's where you went because that became part of who you
• 32:40
  were. And then obviously as you
• 32:43
  stepped out of prison, what did that?
• 32:45
  Was that just a natural thing for you it?
• 32:48
  Was it was I had no experience in teaching, I certainly had no
• 32:51
  experience in developing curriculums.
• 32:54
  But I, I had run a sales organization for whatever it
• 32:58
  was, you know, including my time.
• 33:01
  Yeah. And so I stood in front of a
• 33:03
  group of people every Friday. I used to do training, training
• 33:06
  sessions. And so I was comfortable with
• 33:08
  that. And even putting together the
• 33:10
  training sessions, I'd always have materials to pass out and
• 33:12
  discuss. So for me, it was kind of
• 33:15
  natural, but I really enjoyed it And, and it was it was different
• 33:20
  because there were guys that were showing up and it wasn't
• 33:23
  about me. This is just what I was supposed
• 33:25
  to be doing. I can't put it any better than
• 33:27
  that. But there were guys showing up
• 33:29
  that never went to classes. And all of a sudden they're
• 33:31
  showing up every week on Tuesday night at 7:00 so we can talk
• 33:35
  about real estate or whatever it was we.
• 33:37
  Were no, I read that deal about the real estate.
• 33:39
  You picked up that real estate book off the shelf, didn't you?
• 33:43
  And thought, I'm going to start teaching this because I thought
• 33:45
  that was interesting, but that was just something you created
• 33:49
  your curriculum, but that was one of the first things you did
• 33:52
  is real estate and taught that. Excuse me.
• 33:56
  So there was a young man in the cube next to me, and I saw him
• 34:02
  last summer in Saint Louis. I hadn't seen him.
• 34:04
  He released in 2007. So I hadn't seen him in all
• 34:07
  those years. And he was just a young guy, was
• 34:10
  25 maybe, when he got out. And so now he's got two
• 34:13
  children. I met his wife.
• 34:14
  He's got a beautiful home. We went out for dinner together.
• 34:17
  It was like walking into a time warp.
• 34:19
  But he's the one that really pushed me to teach because he
• 34:23
  said, man, I want to learn about real estate.
• 34:24
  You need to teach this class. And finally I said, OK, Nate,
• 34:28
  I'll do it. And I went and and so you, you
• 34:32
  get in the people that are that are watching or listening to
• 34:35
  this guy, I show up. I won't go to main line because
• 34:38
  that's where they all congregate, all the staff
• 34:39
  congregates. And I walk up to the guy in
• 34:41
  charge of education and say, I like to teach a class.
• 34:44
  All right, come and see me tomorrow at 2:00.
• 34:45
  And I show up the next day at 2. He's not there.
• 34:48
  And then I find him again. He says, come tomorrow at 3:00
• 34:50
  and I go and he's not there. And I'm chasing this guy like
• 34:52
  I'm a puppy for more than a month.
• 34:55
  And finally he said, I don't, I don't get you.
• 34:57
  What do you want to teach for? I said it's something to do and,
• 35:00
  and I'd like to do this. He said, he said, well, I'm not
• 35:02
  going to pay you. I said, I'm not looking to get
• 35:04
  paid. I just want to teach a class.
• 35:05
  And, and that's how it got started.
• 35:07
  And it ends up, by the way, that this this guy in charge of
• 35:10
  education, when I went to leave to go to Duluth, he called us
• 35:14
  the supervisor of education in Duluth and told him that when I
• 35:17
  get there, he should hire me. This guy's telling, Yeah.
• 35:20
  And. So he kind of, he ended up being
• 35:21
  a really nice guy. He's opening that door for me so
• 35:24
  that I I was able to continue in education when I went up to
• 35:27
  Duluth. So in, you know, so how long
• 35:30
  were you before you went to Duluth with how many years was
• 35:33
  that? Four years, four years I had,
• 35:36
  which is a good amount of time. Yeah, Oh yeah, I saw plenty.
• 35:39
  I had to get under 10 years in order to be eligible to go to
• 35:42
  the camp. And so once I got under 10
• 35:45
  years, they put me in and I, I was sent to the camp in June, so
• 35:52
  June of 2009. So when does the opportunity
• 35:57
  arise that the warden picks you out of the flock of inmates and
• 36:04
  says I want you to do this and and go and speak and be a part
• 36:10
  of the community outreach? I had just gotten to Duluth and
• 36:14
  a new warden had just gotten there and she wanted to do
• 36:16
  community outreach. And they had some signs up
• 36:18
  around the compound that they were having, you know,
• 36:21
  auditions, tryouts, interviews, whatever.
• 36:23
  And, and it was, it was on a like a Saturday or Sunday.
• 36:27
  It was Saturday must have been. And so I was one of a long line
• 36:32
  of people wait for 15 minutes for each person and go in.
• 36:36
  And it was the warden, the AW, the captain, Lieutenant or two,
• 36:41
  a case manager, I mean old group of people.
• 36:43
  You're literally auditioning like American.
• 36:45
  Idol and and so, but I don't sing, so that didn't happen.
• 36:49
  I don't dance either. But anyway, I, I went in, I said
• 36:52
  what I, what I would say because that's what they say is what
• 36:55
  would you, what would you tell the community?
• 36:57
  And a couple of days later I got called to, to whatever the, the
• 37:02
  warden secretary's office and, and they selected three of us
• 37:05
  and I was, I was blessed to be one of them.
• 37:08
  That was three How many people were about?
• 37:09
  1000. Yeah, I thought that was a
• 37:10
  pretty big camp. We only had 435, I think, but I
• 37:14
  remember Duluth being a bigger camp.
• 37:15
  Yeah. So what, how does it, how did
• 37:17
  that work? How did that whole community
• 37:20
  outreach thing work? How did how did you get from to
• 37:23
  and from and in front of people and all that?
• 37:25
  Well, there were, there were staff members in charge of the
• 37:31
  outreach program. And so we would go to a
• 37:35
  different place. They would, they wouldn't tell
• 37:37
  us until that morning. Like, you know, be down here in
• 37:40
  30 minutes. And so you run and you put on a
• 37:44
  cleaner shirt or you brush your teeth or whatever.
• 37:47
  And, and you know, they take you by van.
• 37:49
  There'll be, there would always be at least 2 two cops there.
• 37:52
  They take you to the place and you go inside and you know, as a
• 37:55
  picture going to a Rotary Club luncheon picture going to a
• 37:59
  leadership group and, and coming in and talking about.
• 38:02
  So there's three of us and we worked out our own thing as far
• 38:05
  as who went first, second and 3rd and kind of played off of
• 38:08
  each other on some of that. And so that would that would
• 38:11
  happen. And there were times of the year
• 38:12
  that it was busy. It was like 2 times in a week.
• 38:15
  And then there were other times we'd wait a month or two between
• 38:18
  events and the winter time, especially between events, and
• 38:22
  went into some high schools, went into some colleges in fact.
• 38:26
  It had to be really interesting for everybody involved in this
• 38:29
  because you walk in with your your khakis on, right?
• 38:33
  Yep, Yep. In a high school.
• 38:36
  I'll tell you that I went to the same warden who put this
• 38:41
  community outreach. She knows who she is.
• 38:44
  We went to an event like a Rotary and the guy that's that's
• 38:49
  the host comes up and he shakes our hand and they've got a
• 38:52
  buffet lunch out there. And he said help yourself to
• 38:55
  lunch. We're going to start in about 20
• 38:56
  minutes. And she came out of her shoes.
• 39:00
  Absolutely not. They can each have one glass of
• 39:03
  water and you know, it was embarrassing.
• 39:08
  It was embarrassing, you know, and then go stand in the corner.
• 39:11
  We couldn't sit down. And then and then we leave.
• 39:13
  And then interestingly, a new warden comes in and he comes out
• 39:17
  to one of these things and the guy says same thing, different
• 39:21
  guy, different group, whatever was basically the same thing.
• 39:24
  And he says something like eat up fellows.
• 39:26
  I'm sure it's better than that. What they've got it back at the
• 39:29
  back at the the prison. And so it was just a different.
• 39:32
  Shows you how different you know 1 warden can be to another
• 39:35
  warden, it just happens to be what their personality is.
• 39:38
  And the warden I just spoke of, I, we sent notes back and forth
• 39:43
  through LinkedIn last week. And he mentioned to me that,
• 39:46
  that he remembered me and he had, he saw the work that I'm
• 39:50
  doing. He said, just thrilled to see
• 39:52
  what you're doing. And, and I responded and I, you
• 39:55
  know, said, I mean, I appreciated the way that he
• 39:58
  treated me. Oh, yeah, And that, that goes so
• 40:00
  far. I had a guy that I worked with
• 40:03
  that was my CEO at the food warehouse and he just treated me
• 40:06
  like it's a regular person. And that's so appreciated.
• 40:10
  When I remember when I the day that I got out because I've
• 40:14
  gotten another job and he made a point to come and and shake my
• 40:18
  hand. Which is not common with
• 40:23
  inmates. It does say that he really hoped
• 40:26
  for the best for me and, and, and appreciated being able to
• 40:29
  work together. And I was like, it makes a big
• 40:32
  difference because most of the time you treat it like cattle
• 40:35
  with a number. So when somebody treats you like
• 40:37
  a person, it feels different and you remember and you and you
• 40:40
  remember it. So you get into this and you
• 40:43
  start and you do this speaking for a long time, but then you
• 40:48
  start creating programs for inmates to ready themselves to
• 40:56
  get out for employment, re entry, those things.
• 41:01
  How did that come to you? What, what, what, what, what
• 41:04
  start? I, you know, nobody.
• 41:06
  By the way, I before you say anything, that is an incredible
• 41:09
  thing to do while you're in prison because it's the most
• 41:11
  needed thing that's not given at that moment when people need it.
• 41:16
  So what happened was you keeps. I kept seeing it.
• 41:19
  You kept seeing it too when you were in.
• 41:21
  And anybody, nobody ever leaves saying I'll be back.
• 41:25
  No, I'll see you guys in a little while.
• 41:27
  Yeah, I'm, I'm never doing this again.
• 41:30
  And I put my family through this, you know, I'm not going to
• 41:33
  live like this. And they can end up coming back
• 41:36
  and and, you know, I'm pretty observant guy.
• 41:38
  And, and it was the same types of stories that that we're
• 41:41
  hearing is that, you know, somebody is got an unresolved
• 41:45
  substance abuse issue, somebody, you know, limited education,
• 41:48
  limited job skills, limited support network.
• 41:51
  And those were the same things that were bringing them back.
• 41:53
  And so I started to work on some of that and, you know, putting
• 41:57
  it together and mostly it was just based on, you know, kind of
• 42:01
  listening to guys that that had made those mistakes.
• 42:03
  And because I hadn't gone through re entry at that point,
• 42:06
  but I did a pretty good job, I think, putting it together.
• 42:09
  And then I had about five years to go.
• 42:11
  I was in Duluth and the guy that was the clerk in the RDAP dorm
• 42:19
  had, was getting ready to go home and they asked him to find
• 42:24
  a replacement and he came to find me and said, you know, you
• 42:28
  might want to consider this. And so I talked to him, the
• 42:31
  staff over there. And so I, I started working in
• 42:33
  RDAP as a clerk. I still taught classes, but I, I
• 42:36
  was the clerk in, in RDAP and you know, then I had more access
• 42:42
  to, to books and materials. Sure, because RDAP had a lot of
• 42:47
  stuff. They have a big budget and a lot
• 42:49
  of stuff. And at some point I was teaching
• 42:55
  this and Word and my handouts, which I was typing by hand on an
• 43:00
  old IBM typewriter. But got back to the staff at our
• 43:04
  DAP and Long story short they made it mandatory that any man
• 43:09
  in the art app dorm had to go through my RE entry program.
• 43:13
  How cool is that? Because that could go one or two
• 43:16
  ways that could go that everybody needs to go through.
• 43:18
  It's mandatory or you should never have done this and that's
• 43:21
  not part of the program. And who do you think you are to
• 43:24
  put this in front of the the other inmates?
• 43:27
  I think that is incredible because being recognized in
• 43:32
  prison as somebody that can help, you know, there's as you
• 43:35
  know, you were there a lot longer than me.
• 43:38
  Respect goes a long ways in prison.
• 43:40
  It's a primitive environment. But if you have respect,
• 43:44
  regardless of who you are, you can walk differently in prison.
• 43:49
  And you were somebody that was doing something that was that
• 43:54
  was actually helping, which had to make you feel like I'm in
• 43:58
  prison, but I'm doing something. I'm making a difference in here.
• 44:02
  It did it did it. You know, I've always felt like
• 44:04
  if there's just one guy that that will take some of this and,
• 44:08
  and do something a little bit different so that they don't
• 44:11
  have the same same challenges and they're able to overcome
• 44:15
  those things. I that I did feel good about
• 44:18
  that and you know, I had a cut. I ran across one the other day
• 44:22
  and I was cleaning out my desk drawer.
• 44:23
  I got a letter from a guy and what before he left and he just
• 44:29
  thanked me for just what I was doing.
• 44:31
  And I guess I never really read the letter and I read it the
• 44:36
  other day and he said some really nice things and, and it
• 44:40
  kind of after these years have gone now, I thought that, you
• 44:44
  know, I never set out intending for this.
• 44:47
  I just thought that I could come up with some practical common
• 44:51
  sense things to do, not expecting that it would that it
• 44:55
  would turn the way that it did. Well, let's talk about that
• 44:58
  because, you know, you when somebody spends this certain
• 45:02
  amount of time in prison, you know, one of my favorite movies
• 45:07
  is Shawshank Redemption. And you know, the biggest thing
• 45:11
  is not to lose hope. And a lot of people do lose
• 45:14
  hope. And in that movie, you see the
• 45:16
  difference between Brooks, who gets out and he ends up going
• 45:20
  through everything and he hangs himself because he says, I can't
• 45:23
  do this. He'd just rather.
• 45:24
  And you've got red. You had a friend with Andy who
• 45:28
  who had given him hope and and he went through the same thing,
• 45:32
  the same grocery job back. And then he embarked his he
• 45:37
  engraved in his the wood that he was there and he moved on.
• 45:43
  And the whole ending of that show is about hope, you know,
• 45:47
  And they I think it even ends with I hope somehow in 13 years
• 45:52
  you had kept hope alive for yourself.
• 45:55
  Did you, as you got close because you also worried about
• 46:00
  getting institutional? I was always worried about
• 46:01
  turning into prison, Brent. I didn't even know what that
• 46:03
  was. It just scared me when you were
• 46:07
  getting close to the door, your freedom, what were you?
• 46:12
  What was? What was a lot of apprehension
• 46:17
  about what things were going to look like?
• 46:19
  I was also, I was determined. I would say that I was
• 46:23
  determined that, that, you know, I knew I was gone a long time
• 46:27
  and I, and by the way, I knew I was institutionalized.
• 46:30
  I knew it. I mean, you know, I had a
• 46:33
  hamburger every Wednesday for lunch for 13 years.
• 46:36
  I stood every day at 4:00, you know, and so I knew that that
• 46:40
  some of those things were I was going to carry out with me as
• 46:43
  far as the, the mindset, I didn't know how deep it went
• 46:47
  until I got out, but I knew I was going to bring that with.
• 46:50
  But my, my focus was on, you know, I, I got a job on the
• 46:56
  inside. So there was a, a former
• 46:59
  cellmate of mine, he has a visitor coming.
• 47:01
  I'm out and visiting that weekend.
• 47:03
  I meet the guy. We went to the same high school.
• 47:05
  He was a few years younger than me.
• 47:07
  I had about a year to go and he asked me what I was going to do
• 47:10
  when I get out, and I said, Mike, I have no idea.
• 47:13
  I've been teaching classes and I've been going out and
• 47:15
  speaking. Yeah.
• 47:16
  You've done a lot. And he said, well, I'd like to,
• 47:18
  I'd like to see some of what you've done.
• 47:20
  So, you know, wrong thing to say to a guy was locked up.
• 47:23
  I sent him an envelope about that back and about 3 months to
• 47:27
  go, he comes back to see me. He got on my visiting list,
• 47:30
  comes back to see me and and walks in.
• 47:32
  And I didn't know this guy except for maybe we chatted 2
• 47:35
  hours in this in this visit and he walked in, he gave me a hug
• 47:39
  and he said I'm going to hire you.
• 47:41
  I don't want you to worry about that when you come back to
• 47:44
  Chicago. I'm going to hire you.
• 47:46
  And it was like the weight of the world.
• 47:48
  On my shoulders gives me chills. Just what you said there.
• 47:52
  Because, because I say I'm, I'm in jails every week, jails and
• 47:55
  prisons and, and I, that's what I tell the men and women is
• 47:57
  that, you know, for me outside the, the health and safety of my
• 48:02
  family and I lost both my parents while I was away.
• 48:05
  So there's, you know, there's that those scars are going to be
• 48:07
  there forever. And, and, but, you know, outside
• 48:11
  of those concerns, my biggest concern was who's going to hire
• 48:14
  me? What am I going to do?
• 48:16
  I'm walking out, I'm 57 years old.
• 48:18
  I'm not going to get a job, you know, laying bricks or something
• 48:21
  because I physically it's, I'm just can't last like that.
• 48:24
  And, and so that was my big concern.
• 48:27
  So when he said that to me, I would say, and I had, as I said,
• 48:31
  about 3 months to go. I walked differently those last
• 48:34
  three months. There's no doubt in my mind that
• 48:36
  you know, And so that and toward as I was really getting to the
• 48:40
  finish line, my mind was on, you know, how I was going to make an
• 48:43
  impact in that job. And what was his job?
• 48:47
  What was it? What was he offering you?
• 48:49
  So he had an executive search and staffing firm in Chicago and
• 48:53
  he wanted me to be his director of training.
• 48:55
  And so not only train his staff, but he wants, he wanted me to
• 48:59
  train some of their corporate clients.
• 49:01
  And that's why I, as I mentioned you before this started, I
• 49:06
  enrolled to go to, to school at Loyola to get a master's
• 49:09
  certificate in business ethics because that would be something
• 49:12
  of value that I could bring. And I showed up for work every
• 49:17
  day, the first guy there cuz I could get out of the halfway
• 49:19
  house early and the last guy to leave so I can go back to the
• 49:23
  halfway house as late as possible.
• 49:25
  But I showed up ready to do it and, and things were starting to
• 49:29
  happen. But after a few months, he said,
• 49:33
  my dad wants to meet you. And so I, I knew of his father
• 49:38
  who was a, you know, it's not too strong warning to say that
• 49:43
  he, he was a legend in Chicagoland as far as charity
• 49:49
  toward single mothers. He created something called the
• 49:53
  Cara program. It's now known as Cara Chicago.
• 49:55
  It's been around for over 30 years.
• 49:58
  And so he knew, I mean, his son had told him, obviously, that I
• 50:01
  was locked up and and that's why Mike was such a kind guy.
• 50:05
  And so we go out for lunch and his dad's grilling me asking me
• 50:10
  all these what you do here and how did you do that class and
• 50:12
  what you do this and tell me about this outreach program and,
• 50:15
  and just, you know, and then at the end, he said, Augie, I want
• 50:17
  to help you. Will you let me help you?
• 50:20
  And I said, Mr. Owens, I'd be honored.
• 50:22
  And the next day he introduced me by e-mail to Tom Dart, who is
• 50:28
  and or who was and is the Cook County sheriff.
• 50:31
  And in those days, Cook County, that's the jail in Chicago, not
• 50:37
  a population 9500. It's the largest single site
• 50:40
  jail in the world. And so 4-5 days later, I'm
• 50:45
  invited to go down to Cook County Jail and they asked me to
• 50:49
  bring with any of the stuff I had been teaching on the inside.
• 50:53
  So I'm digging through the boxes I censor and pulling some of it
• 50:57
  out. And I show up there.
• 50:59
  Brendan and I walk behind the razor wire and the hair on my
• 51:04
  neck stood up. I bet it did.
• 51:05
  It was, it was a feeling. And they're escorting me and,
• 51:09
  and I'm sure that I'm, you know, just swallowing hard and
• 51:13
  probably sweating a little bit. And we walk up to this room and
• 51:17
  they open the door and there's got to be 20 cops in there.
• 51:20
  There's a woman sitting in the middle, Doctor Gobster.
• 51:24
  She's still there. And, and she's sitting in the
• 51:26
  middle and she's got, you know, guns and badges and, and, and
• 51:30
  they're brown leather jackets on both sides for that to be 20
• 51:33
  people there. And I'm sure she saw the look on
• 51:36
  my face and she said, she said, sit down and just tell us your
• 51:40
  story. And so I told him and, and she
• 51:43
  said, you know, what did you bring with you?
• 51:45
  And it kind of like coaxing it out of me.
• 51:48
  And I told her and they passed him around.
• 51:50
  And before the meeting even ended, she said, we don't have
• 51:54
  anything like this. Can you help us out?
• 51:57
  Can I get you to come in here and, and, and do this program?
• 52:02
  And I said, I said I wanted to think about it for a day and,
• 52:06
  and, but I, I knew what I was going to do, but I just wanted
• 52:10
  to make sure that I was ready for it.
• 52:12
  And she said, but we can't pay you.
• 52:14
  I don't have any money in the budget right now at some point,
• 52:17
  but not now. And Mike was, he was so kind.
• 52:22
  He said to her, he said, look, Augie can come here and do this
• 52:27
  and I'll pay him like he's at work.
• 52:30
  And so, cuz otherwise it wouldn't have worked.
• 52:33
  And so I started there January 2nd, 2018.
• 52:39
  My meeting with her would have been in October or so, So
• 52:42
  January 2018. And I walked in and I was
• 52:47
  nervous because I had always taught to people wearing the
• 52:54
  same uniform as me. Now I'm walking there in there
• 52:57
  wearing street clothes, talking to a bunch of guys that are that
• 53:02
  are, you know, incarcerated. And I got, I got to share this
• 53:06
  with you. So I go through the first group
• 53:10
  and there were mostly younger guys and I was in division six
• 53:14
  and it was mostly younger guys. They're kind of slumped in their
• 53:17
  chairs and they're looking at me and I'm sure they're thinking,
• 53:19
  what's, what's this dude here for?
• 53:20
  What's this about? And so I start to talk to him.
• 53:23
  And then I told him my story and how I'd been locked up and how
• 53:26
  I'd put this together. And also they're starting to sit
• 53:28
  a little straighter in the chair.
• 53:29
  And when I ended, they lined up every one of them to shake my
• 53:34
  hand and, and it moved me. Oh.
• 53:36
  Man, it would have moved me. Because, you know, I could see
• 53:41
  that they connected. It wasn't about anything other
• 53:44
  than my story and what I was trying to do, how I was trying
• 53:48
  to help. Trying to help.
• 53:49
  And, and yeah, and so from that point on, it just took off.
• 53:53
  It went from one group every Tuesday to four groups every
• 53:57
  Tuesday. So I'd be there from 8:00 in the
• 53:58
  morning till 8:00 at night. And then it, I started going
• 54:02
  into Kane County and Kendall County and Grundy County.
• 54:05
  And I was going into a treatment center, was working in a halfway
• 54:08
  house. I was working in diversion
• 54:10
  program in the Cook County court system.
• 54:13
  And, you know, so this thing was taken on a life of its own.
• 54:17
  And at that point, Mike decided that he really, it, it was
• 54:23
  inconsistent with his core business.
• 54:26
  And so there's a guy that I had met who was a friend of Mike's
• 54:30
  and he used to office in Mike's, Mike's place.
• 54:32
  He had a real nice office building or office suite.
• 54:35
  And the guy would, would come in there and do some of his work.
• 54:38
  His name is Dan. And, and so we start talking
• 54:41
  and, and because I didn't know him before, I went away and but
• 54:45
  he sees me showing up every day working on things.
• 54:47
  And, and so he said, I'd love to see what you're doing.
• 54:51
  And I said, I can't get you into Cook County, but I go to Above
• 54:56
  and Beyond, which is an outpatient treatment center
• 54:58
  because I'm there every Thursday morning.
• 55:00
  If you want to come there, you can check it out.
• 55:02
  And he, he came in and you know, he, Dan's a recovering
• 55:07
  alcoholic. He's been sober now like 11 1/2
• 55:09
  years. And he is a terrifically nice
• 55:11
  guy. And he comes and after a couple
• 55:14
  of weeks, he said, Auggie, you got to do this and this has to
• 55:17
  be what you do. And so he went to Mike and
• 55:20
  worked it out that I was going to leave Mike and go to work for
• 55:22
  Dan. And he made sure we had a
• 55:25
  website and a copy machine and and Wi-Fi and, and off we went.
• 55:30
  And I would just run around and, and, you know, find new clients
• 55:34
  and, you know, he administered the business.
• 55:37
  And so we we Co founded this thing that to really, you know,
• 55:42
  get it, get some traction and then.
• 55:44
  What year would that have been Auggie?
• 55:45
  When you when that happened. So we would have been toward the
• 55:49
  very end of 18, beginning of 19. So I, you guys have really
• 55:54
  grown. Yeah.
• 55:56
  And what happened was we hit COVID and everything locked
• 56:01
  down. I went from being a guy that was
• 56:03
  going from here to here on roller skates to there was only
• 56:08
  one place that stayed open above and beyond the treatment center.
• 56:11
  The executive director, another guy named Dan said, I'm not
• 56:15
  locking the doors of these people.
• 56:16
  You don't have to come to work if you don't want.
• 56:18
  He's talking to his staff. I wasn't on his staff, right?
• 56:20
  I just can't went in there one one day a week to do our
• 56:22
  program. But he said, you don't have to
• 56:25
  come in if you're not comfortable, but if you're
• 56:27
  willing to come in. And this was actually, this was
• 56:31
  right before, right when it started.
• 56:35
  And the woman that that was that was handling employment and
• 56:40
  housing quit. And she said, I can't do this,
• 56:44
  Dan. I've got health condition,
• 56:46
  whatever. And so she quit and he came to
• 56:49
  meet and he said, listen, I know that you're looking for
• 56:52
  something to do. You want to come and do this for
• 56:54
  six months? And I said yeah.
• 56:57
  And I really learned a lot about about housing and not so much
• 57:02
  employment because I had been doing employment.
• 57:04
  I from when I got out, I was helping people get jobs.
• 57:06
  But the housing can be really brutal.
• 57:09
  Oh, the housing is one, if not the toughest hurdle.
• 57:11
  I mean, you've got, I don't know how, you know, you take
• 57:13
  employment and housing and those two things are either you get
• 57:16
  back into society or you don't. Yep.
• 57:19
  They call it the economic empowerment model.
• 57:21
  You can't have stable housing without stable employment.
• 57:24
  You can't have stable employment without stable housing.
• 57:26
  And clearly housing is the more challenging thing for a number
• 57:30
  of reasons, right. So anyway, the, the way that it
• 57:37
  went from there is I had a friend invite me down to down to
• 57:42
  Atlanta and my wife and I came down here and he, he asked me if
• 57:50
  I would help him. He has a construction company.
• 57:52
  Yes, if I would help him build out the business office.
• 57:55
  My background's in business. I was looking for something to
• 57:58
  do. So I said yeah.
• 57:59
  But I told him as soon as this COVID thing's over, I'm going
• 58:04
  back to 2nd and that's what I'm about.
• 58:06
  And, and he and his cousin helped and we end up and Johnny
• 58:12
  at Johnny Cash's ranch outside of Nashville on Johnny Cash's
• 58:17
  stage with his piano there and Elvis's motorcycle behind me.
• 58:21
  And they brought in a professional film crew and
• 58:24
  everything I've been teaching in person.
• 58:27
  We were there all week. I mean, it was a, it was a lot
• 58:29
  of work, but everything that I've been doing in person got
• 58:32
  put into a digital format. And I had a cellmate of mine,
• 58:38
  Ulysses, who was teaching ESL inside prison.
• 58:42
  And he was the official translator for the medical
• 58:45
  department in the, in Duluth. I invited him to come down and
• 58:50
  he did the, the Spanish language portion.
• 58:52
  So we've got English and Spanish and, and he translated our
• 58:55
  workbooks. So they're English and Spanish.
• 58:58
  And, and that's, so when we come out in, excuse me, this would
• 59:05
  have been about April or May of 2022.
• 59:09
  So just a little over two years ago, that's when we had a
• 59:12
  product because we filmed right before Christmas.
• 59:15
  But by the time everything got done on the, on the technology
• 59:19
  side. And so we had a product in, in
• 59:21
  around April or May of 2022. And then since then we've been,
• 59:27
  you know, we're, we're in like 24 states now.
• 59:30
  A lot of our stuff goes out through tablet, but you know, I
• 59:34
  I go to as many facilities as I can.
• 59:38
  I've only missed 2. We do a kickoff where I go and
• 59:41
  and I enjoy it. I they walk me in all the
• 59:44
  housing units, shake hands with the men and women, try to
• 59:47
  provide encouragement. Tell them here's how we can help
• 59:50
  you these courses. When you get out, you can
• 59:52
  contact us what we've got. We got post release support will
• 59:55
  help you with a job or we'll help you, You know, we'll help
• 59:58
  refer you for these other things and it to me, it's just it's.
• 1:00:03
  I mean, Auggie, you're, I can see why all this works too,
• 1:00:06
  because I mean, you, you are inspiring.
• 1:00:09
  Your story is inspiring. What you've done is inspiring.
• 1:00:12
  So to be able to walk those hallways and talk to those
• 1:00:15
  people, they feel that you know that you don't, you know, it's
• 1:00:19
  not like you got it out of a textbook.
• 1:00:21
  You've lived it And, and that and people get that.
• 1:00:23
  They, they, then they then, you know, I, I think a lot of times
• 1:00:27
  in that world, in this re entry world, is that that trust
• 1:00:30
  factor. You know, who can I trust
• 1:00:33
  somebody who's walked the, the steps that you've walked and
• 1:00:37
  then that you're dedicating to something that you really feel
• 1:00:39
  passionate about. They feel that.
• 1:00:41
  And I think that's why that's working so well.
• 1:00:44
  And you know, I, I am such a big believer in, in people using
• 1:00:48
  their experience after they've been through it to, to help
• 1:00:52
  people and, and you're doing that in spades.
• 1:00:55
  And it's, it's, it's really impressive.
• 1:00:58
  I, I'm so proud of how you've been able to, to take 13 years
• 1:01:03
  of your life and, and walk out of there.
• 1:01:06
  And I'm sure you've hit bad days and you know, things that you
• 1:01:11
  feel like you're in the dish, but you pulled yourself out
• 1:01:12
  because you've got a passion to pull yourself out and, and to
• 1:01:16
  keep it moving forward. I, I just think it's, it's
• 1:01:20
  incredible. I, I was, I was so excited when
• 1:01:22
  we connected and and I got to read and talk to you about what
• 1:01:28
  all you're doing because it's, it's such an important thing in
• 1:01:32
  our society to get people back into society and re entry it.
• 1:01:38
  But it has to be people around the table who've experienced it.
• 1:01:41
  I think that's, that's where the stuff really happens.
• 1:01:44
  The good stuff happens. Yeah, and thank you for all
• 1:01:47
  that. That's it's very kind.
• 1:01:48
  I, you know, it's not rocket science, but we have to
• 1:01:56
  recognize, in my opinion, we have to recognize that everybody
• 1:01:59
  that releases is a different human being.
• 1:02:02
  There is no one cookie cutter for everybody.
• 1:02:05
  Here's your release kit. This works for it doesn't.
• 1:02:09
  There's the there's the guy that that was fortunate and got a 90
• 1:02:14
  day sentence and gets out and still has a job and a bank
• 1:02:18
  account and a working credit card and a house to go to.
• 1:02:21
  Not the same situation. Not that he doesn't incur trauma
• 1:02:24
  and those other things, but it's not the same situation as the
• 1:02:27
  guy that went in at age 21, never made it through high
• 1:02:31
  school, never had a bank account, never had a meaningful
• 1:02:34
  job, you know, and the challenges that that that person
• 1:02:38
  faces. So it's about figuring out a
• 1:02:41
  path, but recognizing that everybody, everybody has a
• 1:02:46
  uniqueness about the path that they may be on.
• 1:02:49
  Yeah, and being able to listen to it, you know, and then they
• 1:02:53
  they can figure their path out. But but they're, but the tools
• 1:02:56
  are there and that's what's important.
• 1:02:58
  I'm curious Sagi, you've been through such a, you know, for
• 1:03:02
  the listeners out there, what do you think's your biggest take
• 1:03:04
  away through? If I'm talking to people that
• 1:03:07
  are currently incarcerated or are formerly incarcerated and
• 1:03:11
  are having trouble getting some traction, it's just let's
• 1:03:14
  regroup. Life can be better on the second
• 1:03:18
  go round. I'm never going to make money
• 1:03:21
  like I did before, but the quality of my life is infinitely
• 1:03:24
  better. And, and what I have.
• 1:03:27
  And when we get letters and, and look at the letters and people
• 1:03:31
  that say, I was taking this in Kane County back in 2019 and I
• 1:03:35
  just got out of the Illinois system.
• 1:03:37
  And I want you to know I got into a welding program because I
• 1:03:40
  remember you. I mean, there's so many
• 1:03:42
  different aspects to it, but you know, I guess the cautionary
• 1:03:47
  tale is that nobody's going to give us anything.
• 1:03:50
  Somebody's not showing up at our front door with a suitcase
• 1:03:53
  filled with wishes. But there are tools out there.
• 1:03:55
  There's people out there, there's many people that are
• 1:03:57
  willing to help people that have been down that path.
• 1:04:00
  And I think that, you know, if people that are, that are having
• 1:04:04
  those type of struggles, that's where we need to look.
• 1:04:07
  Number one rule of re entry in my world is we've got to be
• 1:04:10
  willing to ask for help. And that's huge.
• 1:04:14
  Got to humble yourself to ask. Absolutely.
• 1:04:17
  Yep, we've got it. We've got to show some humility
• 1:04:19
  and say, hey, I don't know how to do this, or I'm really
• 1:04:22
  struggling with this or I can't seem to, to adjust to the way
• 1:04:26
  the the speed of life. Because I promise you, there's
• 1:04:30
  been so many people have gone through the system that there's
• 1:04:32
  many people out there that can relate to what your challenge is
• 1:04:35
  and can help walk you through it.
• 1:04:37
  Yeah, good point, good point. And for people to get a hold of
• 1:04:42
  you, Augie, I guess you've got a great website, the second
• 1:04:45
  opportunity website, that's is it, second
• 1:04:49
  opportunityprogram.com. It's second op.com and 2nd OP
• 1:04:54
  second Second is the number 2 with the letters ND as opposed
• 1:04:58
  to spelling out second. OPP.
• 1:05:01
  OPP, short for opportunity.com and our phone number is 247.
• 1:05:07
  I'm sorry, 84725727138472572713. Gosh, Augie, just keep doing
• 1:05:17
  what you're doing, man. I hope you have the same type of
• 1:05:21
  success the next two or three years you've had in the last two
• 1:05:24
  or three years because it's a big deal.
• 1:05:28
  Talking about being grateful, I want to thank Homestead
• 1:05:31
  Financial for letting me use all this fancy equipment in this
• 1:05:34
  podcast room here. If anybody's looking for home
• 1:05:37
  mortgage needs, Greg Aftiev is definitely your guy.
• 1:05:40
  He knows it all. If anybody's looking for a book
• 1:05:43
  out there, I've got one, it's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble.
• 1:05:46
  Nightmare success, everybody. I love you guys.
• 1:05:50
  When we're with the show, you know, you follow subscriptions,
• 1:05:54
  likes, comments, all those things.
• 1:05:56
  Share, share, share. I know it's a hassle sometimes
• 1:06:00
  to leave a review on Apple, but it helps to show it puts it on
• 1:06:02
  steroids. So if you've got time, I would
• 1:06:05
  love for you to do that if you want.
• 1:06:07
  Oh, I just got a new website, itsbrentcassidy.com just went
• 1:06:11
  live last week. It's a new one.
• 1:06:13
  So I like it. As I used to say when I was
• 1:06:18
  writing my emails back and forth from Leavenworth.
• 1:06:20
  Stay strong, I'll do the same. Auggie, thank you so much for
• 1:06:24
  being here today. You've got an incredible story I
• 1:06:26
  can't wait for people to hear. Thank you, Brent.
• 1:06:28
  Thanks for inviting me on and it was my pleasure to speak with
• 1:06:30
  you. Nightmare success and Auggie.
• 1:06:33
  That was awesome.