Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 22 - Are The Nicolaitans a Cult of Saint Nicholas?

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Ep. 22 - Are The Nicolaitans a Cult of Saint Nicholas? · Martyr's Row

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  John the Baptist. In the days of Herod Antipas,
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  tetrarch of Galilee, under Roman rule, John the
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  Baptist, a prophet of righteousness, rebuked
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  the king for taking Herodias, his brother's wife,
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  in unlawful marriage. For this bold witness against
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  sin, John was cast into prison. On Herod's birthday,
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  a banquet was held, and the daughter of Herodias
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  danced before the king and his nobles. So delighting
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  Herod that he swore to grant her any request.
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  Prompted by her mother, who harbored bitter hatred
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  toward John, the girl demanded the head of the
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  prophet on a platter. Though the king was troubled,
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  for he knew John to be a holy man, he yielded
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  to his oath and the fear of losing face before
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  his guests. Thus John was beheaded in the prison,
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  his head brought forth and delivered to Herodias.
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  Though not numbered among the twelve, John was
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  the final prophet sent to prepare the way of
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  the Lord. A burning voice in the wilderness,
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  whose death sealed his testimony, his martyrdom
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  stands as a solemn herald to the coming of Christ,
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  for whom he lived and died. It's always good
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  to be back always good Yeah, how's it going Paul,
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  you know what things are going good I it's funny.
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  I've been thinking about Extended family. Okay.
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  So do you have a strong like extended family?
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  You're pretty close with that I'm close with
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  or they're strong Let's say you're close with
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  like a strong family connection with them to
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  be honest. No, okay, cuz I'm kind of the same
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  way Okay. I feel like, especially my cousins,
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  I don't really know them that well. Sure. Growing
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  up, we never like hung out or spent a lot of
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  time together. There's actually one cousin that
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  I'm close with, but he's like a fourth cousin.
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  That's not a cousin. Very far removed. That's
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  called a neighbor. Yeah. A neighbor that we have
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  like a relative. Yeah. But you know, it's funny
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  because I was thinking about that as far as like,
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  if you... Like your cousin, especially since,
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  if you don't hang out with them very much, one
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  day they just kind of like appear and they're
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  just like homeless. You know what I mean? Like
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  just completely a wild looking person. Like a
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  Thanksgiving. Yeah, and you're just like, what
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  happened to you? Do you think that's how Jesus
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  and Mary and Joseph felt when John the Baptist
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  showed up for a feast? You're like, bro, what
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  happened to you? Here's the thing, I like the
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  idea that Jesus, Mary, and Joseph are also just
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  like chilling. Because like that did happen.
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  Right, they just hang out. But also, John the
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  Baptist. Which of course is his last name the
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  Baptist the Baptist that's well Baptist is his
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  last name does his middle Yeah, but the the truth
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  is is like you like when he went out into the
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  wilderness He didn't come back into town. No,
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  he was just out Yeah, so you're saying just like
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  in the middle. He was like, but just an idea
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  like hmm. I'm tired of bugs I like how you looked
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  all the way down your arm. Okay, actually cuz
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  I saw this little mark here. I was like, what
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  is that? Because I was looking at my wrist like
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  it was time. And then you had a bug comment and
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  it's like, oh, you used your whole arm. But like
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  that would be, that is a funny idea that he's
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  like, oh, it's feast time. Maybe I should go
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  back and celebrate Shabbat. Mind if I crash at
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  your house? And Jesus, Mary and Joseph are just
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  chilling there. He's like that cool uncle. Because
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  clearly. Jesus didn't have any legitimate brothers
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  and sisters, right? They were all half brothers
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  and sisters. Yeah. Yeah, I'm Joseph's previous
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  wife That's a nice little callback that's so
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  that's so crazy to me that's a weird idea I also
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  don't really know like I I feel like there's
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  a lot of a lot of things within Catholicism Yeah,
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  that most Catholics just don't know because there's
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  so many things. Yeah, like I feel like Yeah,
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  there's a lot of little tiny things in there
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  that... Yeah. And almost in a bad way, Protestants
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  don't have enough things. Well, I feel like we've
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  kind of... A lot of Protestants are so afraid
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  of appearing Catholic that they've just gotten
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  rid of all of it. Are you Catholic? How dare
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  you? No, no, no. It's like Peter after Jesus
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  gets arrested. No, no. Not me, I was never with
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  that Catholic. So at the very reformed non -denominational
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  church that I grew up in. Okay, which is just
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  nothing. It's just nothing. It's not even a real
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  church. It's just remnants of John Wesley. Yeah.
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  In the Midwest the middle in my mind also John
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  Wesley is like somehow came over from the north
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  and just like as if he were as if he were Trying
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  to go out to the Western frontier. He's just
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  slowly making his way out West from but the truth
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  is like I don't know that That's what actually
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  happened. He's like the Johnny Appleseed of products.
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  Yeah And the truth is like great the Great Awakening
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  like that. Yeah kind of happen. It's kind of
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  what it was Yeah, so in my mind he's like you
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  know I don't know in a horse and carriage like
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  go on my brothers to the next town that's amazing
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  even remnants behind him in the midwest of a
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  little bit of reformed theology he's like here's
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  a tulip that's a deep cut joke if you like that
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  but yeah um but yeah it's funny so in that church
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  um the pastor was like, hey, I want us to do
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  like an Ash Wednesday service and observe Lent.
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  And it was funny because the biggest pushback
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  was like, that's a Catholic thing. And it was
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  funny because there's like, well, hold on, let's
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  actually just like talk about what this is and
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  why we should do it as Protestants. And it's
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  like, it was such that fear of like, let's not
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  be Catholic. And it's like, what's wrong with
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  it though? You know what I mean? Yeah, true.
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  Yeah, because it's assuming that anything that
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  the Catholics do. Yeah. is like, no, this is
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  against Martin Luther. What would Martin say?
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  What would Martin say? Wait, what's the W -W
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  -M -S? That might be weird. Yeah, what would
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  Martin? I mean, that's what it would be. It's
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  almost like a dot com, but with one less W for
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  the four multiple sclerosis. Is that too much
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  of a leap? Might not be big enough. W -W -W -MS.
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  What would... I can't make up another W. What
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  would World Wide Web... Martin Luther? Martin
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  Luther? ML. How did I get MS? MLS. That's real
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  estate. Major League Soccer? No, it was Major
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  League Soccer. Isn't it like the... MLS? Mass
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  Listing. or something like that. Could also be
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  that. I think that's what real estate agencies.
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  I mean, if you're a real estate agent, do not
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  let us know. Don't, we don't want to know. I
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  don't want to be fact checked. But say hi, because
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  we like saying hi. Yeah, yeah, please say hi.
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  But also fact check things we didn't even ask
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  you to fact check. Please. That's way more fun.
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  That's actually my favorite thing. Also checked.
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  It's hard for me not to say that. Checked. Yeah,
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  fact checked. Oh, yeah. Fact check. Fact check.
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  I want to take the end of fact and put it on
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  the end of check. Fact, checked. It's like Reese's
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  Pieces. Yes. Which is the right way to say it.
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  Was that a question? Well, it's been a kind of
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  a... I know, I'm just kidding. Oh, okay. You're
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  like, I really don't care. It's just like when
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  someone... says something in the form of a question,
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  but you know they're not actually asking you
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  a question. That is always, it's like a fun opportunity
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  to just like answer the question as if they're
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  not being, you know. But John the Baptist, Locust
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  Boy. We're great at segues. What it is, it's
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  like rabbit trail, rabbit trail, rabbit trail.
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  Back to the middle. Oh yeah, that's what we were
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  saying. Cousins. Cousins. That is a weird thing.
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  Well, it is kind of an interesting thing, even
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  with him going out to the wilderness. I'm not
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  saying this is why he did that. To get away from
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  his family? He's like, I gotta get out of here.
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  But you think it's like, actually kind of a brutal
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  family life there. Not because his family was
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  bad, but because the dog got killed. Wait, what
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  do you mean? Like his dad, Zechariah. Yeah. So
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  that was one of the things where, Herod, like
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  a lot, I think it was Herod's dad. Well, there
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  were a lot of Herod's. There were a lot, one
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  of the Herod's. Mr. Herod. Mr. Herod. Herod the
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  third. Excuse me, sir. Mr. Herod. Mr. Herod,
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  sir. It's like saying Mr. King. I think Herod
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  was like a... Your Caesar. Exactly. So there
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  were a lot of people at the time. That's an interesting
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  thing even with Jesus. He wasn't the only one
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  at that time that claimed to be the Messiah.
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  Oh, I see what you're saying. And so John, people
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  assumed that he was, by the way, people talked
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  about him in the miraculous birth that he was
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  a part of. Yeah. It's like, oh, like, he's the
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  Messiah, so let's get rid of him. So they actually
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  were trying to kill him. Yeah, yeah. And as he
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  was a young boy. And so his mom, Elizabeth, and
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  him fled. And Zechariah, who was one of the one
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  of the priests in the temple. Yeah. They went
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  there looking for for John. Where's John? And
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  Zechariah wouldn't tell them anything, so they
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  killed Zechariah in the temple and actually stained
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  the stones with steps out there. I didn't know
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  this. It's pretty interesting. Should I know
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  this? I don't know. I actually surprised you
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  didn't. Is that in the Bible? No, I don't think
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  that's Bible. By the way, you should ask that
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  question more often. Is that in the Bible? Is
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  that in the Bible? Because sometimes it's like,
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  wait, that could be, no, I'm pretty sure. No,
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  I'm pretty sure all we know about Zechariah is
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  that like he was doing his priestly duty when
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  the angel of the Lord came to him. And then he
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  couldn't speak. And then we do get like a little
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  glimpse into that because Jesus brings up Zechariah.
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  We're talking about the blood of Abel all the
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  way through the blood of Zechariah. Oh, that's
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  cool. And so it's kind of like that time of like,
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  yeah, they also killed my uncle. I guess it would
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  be his cousin, his first cousin or something,
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  his mom's cousin. Mom's cousin's husband. Whatever
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  that diet. Because Elizabeth and Mary are cousins.
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  Yes. Right. Or is that like a first century thing
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  where it's actually like Joseph and well because
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  the thing is is like we also do know that like
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  Joseph or Joseph and Mary both are from the house
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  of David. Right. But that's not necessarily like
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  their blood relatives. Yeah. It'd be like they're
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  from the same town. Sorry. It would actually
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  mean that they're blood relatives. It does mean
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  they're blood relatives, but it doesn't necessarily
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  mean that they're like first cousins. Okay. It's
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  more so like, like there's a relation somewhere.
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  Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cause it, cause it would have
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  to be so like Mary, like, so think about it this
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  way. Joseph is not Jesus' dad. Right. So the
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  blood that Jesus receives is not from Joseph.
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  Yeah, it's only from Mary. It's only from Mary.
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  Well, and the Holy Spirit. True. Which is himself
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  also. So it's his blood pre -insimination. Yeah.
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  Very interesting to think about. But I guess
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  it's also weird because you think about even
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  like DNA -wise. Yeah. Like human DNA is only
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  from Mary. That's what I'm saying. Which is,
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  yeah, that's what you're bringing in. Well, and
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  that's, and the whole thing with like the Shroud
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  of Toran. Right like the whole thing with that
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  is that they actually eventually found blood
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  stains on his didn't they? Yeah, and and that
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  was a B Yeah, yeah, and which is like a super
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  I think it's like the most rare blood type interesting
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  but also that the weird like a side that I've
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  heard is that like What do they call that in
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  the Catholic Church when there's instances? Where
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  it's like Jesus appears, there's a word for it
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  if you know the word for it then Like essentially
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  like there are, there have been people who have
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  like after intense prayer or after like... Encounters?
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  Well they will have, like people have all of
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  a sudden had scars in their hands. Oh really?
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  Yeah it's like a... I don't think I've heard
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  about this. Oh really? Yeah this is new. Oh we
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  need to, we need to, we need to research that.
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  Yeah we should. Because the idea is that like
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  it's a type, it's... through the years, it's
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  been cataloged with the Catholic Church of instances,
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  there's a word for it, it's really bothering
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  me. But the Catholic Church has a word for everything.
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  Yeah, true. And its origin is Latin. But it's
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  basically like, it's almost like a prophetic
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  word, but it's an instance where a person all
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  of a sudden has the markings of Christ. Is that
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  associated with the weeping Mary statues? Yeah.
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  So it's all that type of thing, but it's in association,
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  but there's a specific word for when it appears
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  on a person. I've never heard of that before.
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  That's really interesting. Yeah, and then there's
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  also instances where things will be blood stained
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  in a sacramental. And in those miraculous instances,
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  they've tested the blood and it's... it's usually
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  always AB. That's crazy. Yeah, which is weird.
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  That's fascinating. But I don't know if that
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  means that they are actively in search of AB
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  blood, and they just sacrifice that kid. Just
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  throwing that out there. You're just like, yeah,
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  let's just say it. I mean, I would believe more
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  in the miraculous event, but I forget if you,
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  like, if for some reason, you know what that
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  is or research that. Please tell us. Put that
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  in there. I'll look it up later. That'd be a
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  fun episode to walk through those. It would be.
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  Because that's something we see in the Catholic
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  and Orthodox churches, like the weeping icons.
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  Oh, right. And the statues. Yeah, yeah. But even
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  like the supernatural events. It's like, what's
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  going on here? Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah.
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  Yeah. So John the Baptist. John the Baptist.
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  Speaking of supernatural events. Back to it.
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  So. We were talking about this a little bit,
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  but we originally started the podcast going through
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  Fox's Book of Martyrs. And the thing is, it's
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  not that John Fox just kinda gives up, but he
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  kinda gives up. Well, it's like, he starts off
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  with like, let me hit the big boys, and then
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  let me talk about the events that happened to
• 15:46
  everyone else that I can't name. Well, and because
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  we've already read about this, but. I think it
• 15:53
  was Antipas actually. Oh no, Antipas was burned
• 15:57
  in the bull. But I forget who it was. When you
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  get to this point in the first and second century
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  with Christians, you start to get to mass killings.
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  And that's where John Fox kind of diverges and
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  goes, there was this group of faithful. And this
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  group of the faithful. they were all killed off
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  in whatever. Because Nero did that. He killed
• 16:27
  off a lot of people all at once. Maybe it was
• 16:30
  Thomas? I don't remember. It was somebody that
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  we've already done. But I think it's amazing
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  that there are still a lot more that can be named.
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  Which is kind of what we're going through right
• 16:39
  now. But then there are, which we will eventually
• 16:41
  get into, here are these groups of people. Yeah,
• 16:47
  well, I don't know. I think we'll probably pull
• 16:48
  them out one by one as best we can Yeah, so like
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  right now. We essentially have have reached the
• 16:54
  end of John Fox's yeah specific list so now the
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  martyrs that you're hearing from our is our own
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  research and like gathering history of something
• 17:07
  that was in the Bible or a historian that talked
• 17:11
  about that or recorded yeah, so That's the interesting
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  thing is like once we got to this point We did
• 17:18
  like two or we've done like two or three of them
• 17:19
  and then I was looking back and I was like wait
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  There's a couple that are pre everybody that
• 17:25
  we've done. Yeah, because we kept talking about
• 17:27
  Stephen as the first martyr Mm -hmm. But the
• 17:29
  thing is we did qualify it first martyr after
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  Christ, correct? Yeah, and we did always say
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  it like that Yeah, I think if if for some reason
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  you want to find a clip where we didn't say it
• 17:39
  like that I'd be impressed. Yeah. Um, yeah, but
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  Yeah, so Stephen was the first martyr after Christ,
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  which is why we start with Stephen. Yeah. But
• 17:48
  there were martyrs actually before Christ. Yeah,
• 17:51
  I think what's interesting with that too, because
• 17:54
  I mean, yeah, there's definitely before. But
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  it's like, I think Stephen is a unique one, as
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  he's the first one that was specifically killed
• 18:01
  for believing Jesus was Christ. And it's like,
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  even with John the Baptist. You're talking about
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  Stephen? Stephen. And it's like John the Baptist,
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  it's like, it wasn't... Like solely for that
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  fact, I'm gonna counter you. Okay, please. Let
• 18:13
  me let me finish this first Okay, and then I
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  want to hear your counter. Okay, so it's like
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  John the Baptist It's like yeah He was killed
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  because there was bitterness toward him for being
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  who he was right as being someone who was a holy
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  man Quote -unquote. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah But there
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  is more to it than just that one sole reason
• 18:33
  well and to be fair like to to aid what you're
• 18:37
  saying, and then also go against you. I'm not
• 18:39
  removing his martyrdom status. No, no, no, and
• 18:41
  I'm not saying that either. The Catholic Church,
• 18:43
  though, holds him as a saint, which is interesting,
• 18:46
  or the Orthodox Church does. I mean, he's pretty
• 18:50
  regularly recognized. Yeah, but I feel like maybe
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  Protestants just don't think of him that way.
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  True. Because it's like, well, Christ hadn't
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  died yet. But here's the thing, John the Baptist
• 19:01
  was Elijah. So because John the Baptist is Elijah
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  then a lot of times I think we categorize him
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  as an Old Testament prophet like realistically
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  It's like is John the Baptist an Old Testament
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  prophet and technically he was the last of the
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  Old Testament prophets So he was the last of
• 19:18
  the Old Testament prophets. Yeah, but he was
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  in real time Yes, so the difficult thing about
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  that is you kind of go like alright, so John
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  the Baptist was a martyr of Yahweh But because
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  he found out that Jesus was the Christ that he
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  had given his life work to and baptized in the
• 19:47
  name of, and then also baptizes Christ, baptizes
• 19:51
  Jesus himself, because that happened, he's both
• 19:55
  Elijah and a martyr of the church. that doesn't
• 19:59
  exist yet. Because the thing is, Stephen is also
• 20:03
  a martyr of the church. But Stephen's not, like,
• 20:07
  the church is not there yet. Yeah, that was at
• 20:10
  the very beginnings of it. Yeah, just barely.
• 20:14
  But yeah, I mean, he just barely makes it. So
• 20:17
  in some ways, you kind of have, because John
• 20:19
  the Baptist, like, how does John the Baptist
• 20:21
  get jailed? He gets jailed because he kept speaking
• 20:24
  out against Herod Antipas. who had basically
• 20:29
  killed his brother and taken his wife. Yeah,
• 20:34
  Herod, not John. Right. And John was actively
• 20:37
  speaking out against that. Yeah, true. And the
• 20:39
  interesting thing is like, it didn't seem like
• 20:42
  Herod actually really hated John. No, I think
• 20:45
  it was more so his wife. And I wonder if it had
• 20:47
  to do with Herod's father killing Zechariah,
• 20:49
  if that was part of it, because he feared him
• 20:51
  because he was a holy man, because he was a prophet.
• 20:54
  And I wonder if it's like, All right. I don't
• 20:57
  want another backlash on my hands. I'm trying
• 20:59
  to hold the peace here with these people. Yeah.
• 21:01
  But it was really like the Bible tells us that
• 21:03
  it was, I think, Matthew 11. There's a couple
• 21:08
  of places. But it tells us that it's really Herod's
• 21:13
  wife. Yeah. Who, because her daughter goes before
• 21:19
  and dances at the birthday banquet. Yeah. Which
• 21:23
  is insane. He he's like so pleased by it that
• 21:28
  he says have anything in my in my king right
• 21:31
  and She was sent there by her mom to do that
• 21:36
  to seduce him. Yeah, which wild and And then
• 21:41
  get what her mom wanted which was the head of
• 21:45
  John the Baptist because John the Baptist was
• 21:47
  making her look bad Yes, you know what I mean?
• 21:50
  Yeah, because of a place of royalty And John's
• 21:55
  like, yeah, you shouldn't be there. But that
• 21:57
  was a Levitical law. Yeah. So that's the thing.
• 22:00
  He wasn't in prison and didn't die because of
• 22:05
  his belief in Jesus. Right. Except Jesus or Yahweh,
• 22:13
  Jesus is with Yahweh in the beginning. Yes. If
• 22:15
  you believe in the Trinity, then Jesus is part
• 22:18
  of Yahweh. Yeah. and Yahweh is part of Jesus.
• 22:21
  If you've seen me, you've seen my father. It's
• 22:24
  this inner play there where it's like, okay,
• 22:27
  but. He's kind of in the novel. He's a very unique
• 22:31
  figure. He's almost both the last Old Testament
• 22:34
  prophet and the first New Testament martyr. I
• 22:38
  would agree with you there. Yeah, I'd agree with
• 22:39
  you there. So to me, he's kind of a bridge between
• 22:41
  the two. That's one thing that sets him apart,
• 22:44
  which you've alluded to here. Yeah, he was, I
• 22:50
  think part of what makes him so unique, too,
• 22:52
  is he was one who could physically point to Jesus.
• 22:55
  And no other prophet, Old Testament prophet,
• 22:57
  could do that, because Jesus wasn't there. That's
• 22:59
  true. But he's like, oh no, that's actually physically
• 23:02
  him. That's him. Yeah. Which is such a cool,
• 23:04
  unique thing. And then he's the one who baptizes
• 23:08
  Jesus, hears the voice of the Father, and sees
• 23:10
  the Holy Spirit at the same time. It's like,
• 23:12
  that's such a unique experience that every prophet
• 23:14
  was probably hoping. maybe they would be a part
• 23:17
  of something like that. Well, and that's an interesting
• 23:19
  thing too, because most of the early church martyrs,
• 23:24
  especially the ones written about in the scripture,
• 23:26
  it talks about their, like, there was, they saw
• 23:30
  the heavens. Yeah, yeah. They see the Lord, or
• 23:35
  they see the angels, they see through to the
• 23:38
  other side, through, in their moment of they're
• 23:42
  about to die. Yeah. And it's depicted that way
• 23:45
  also in paintings and expressions. But it doesn't
• 23:51
  tell us that John has that before he gets beheaded.
• 23:55
  However, he does have that experience when he
• 23:57
  baptizes Jesus. So it's almost like he has all
• 24:01
  of these experiences of Christian martyrs, but
• 24:03
  he has them slightly out of order. Right? Because
• 24:08
  he is, he's the one to prepare the way. So he
• 24:11
  actually is the bridge. Which is kind of cool.
• 24:13
  It's pretty cool. Especially because Jesus says
• 24:16
  that he is the Elijah that's supposed to come
• 24:18
  back. Yeah. Yeah. So like you have that, you
• 24:21
  have that side of it too. He's going to find
• 24:24
  this like deranged looking man just up here and
• 24:27
  be like, oh, it's time. But to your original
• 24:32
  point, does, I mean, Jesus and John, they would
• 24:37
  have to have known each other. Absolutely. Because
• 24:39
  we know for sure that Mary spends like six months
• 24:43
  with Elizabeth when she's pregnant. Yeah. In
• 24:46
  fact, you could almost say that John was one
• 24:52
  of the first people to meet Jesus. Yeah. Because
• 24:55
  John leaps in her womb. Yeah. Which is a really
• 24:58
  cool... It's a cool story. Cool picture. And
• 25:01
  it's like a foreshadowing of what is to come.
• 25:03
  It's interesting too because you think of...
• 25:07
  Jesus growing up and there would have been like
• 25:11
  you said there would have been some interaction
• 25:12
  there. I'm sure yeah It's like do either of them
• 25:17
  know which is a weird question maybe and I'm
• 25:20
  saying that mostly on John's side It's like does
• 25:22
  he does he just not know he's like, oh, it's
• 25:25
  just my cousin Jesus And then he sees him. He's
• 25:28
  like, oh, no, that's actually him. I know him,
• 25:30
  but that's actually him Well, I think the real
• 25:34
  question is Can their moms keep a secret? Do
• 25:38
  you know what I mean? Because the truth is is
• 25:43
  like if if you have an immaculate conception
• 25:47
  and Something's going on. Yeah. Well, how are
• 25:52
  you not when the kids ten years old? Yeah telling
• 25:56
  the kid about where he came from true. Yeah true.
• 25:59
  I'm except that like it is a I don't know, actually
• 26:03
  to a kid like a six or seven year old, that's
• 26:06
  not that crazy, because everything is crazy to
• 26:09
  a six or seven year old. It's like the whole
• 26:11
  world is just like magic, the whole thing is.
• 26:15
  So like expressing that at a young age, because
• 26:18
  that's the whole thing. But I think also, especially
• 26:20
  as kids, we can also kind of become numb to some
• 26:22
  of those things, because we grew up around it.
• 26:24
  Yeah, but that doesn't mean you don't know it.
• 26:25
  Right, like you know it, but the weight of it
• 26:29
  doesn't really hit you. when you're young like
• 26:32
  that? Well, one of the things that I like is
• 26:33
  that, like with John the Baptist, is that what's
• 26:38
  spoken over John the Baptist or to his parents
• 26:40
  about him being the one calling out into the
• 26:43
  wilderness, and I'm gonna get this wrong, but
• 26:47
  two Old Testament, as far as like what it is
• 26:50
  specifically, but two Old Testament prophets
• 26:53
  speak about John the Baptist. And one of them's
• 26:56
  Jeremiah, and I think the other one's Isaiah.
• 26:59
  Either way, when it's quoted or when it's spoken
• 27:04
  to Zechariah, it's from one Old Testament prophet.
• 27:10
  When John says it, it's from a different Old
• 27:13
  Testament prophet. And you actually see the way
• 27:15
  it's referenced in like any Bible. It's like
• 27:18
  anytime it's, when it's spoken, the one to prepare
• 27:22
  the way. There's a scripture reference back to
• 27:24
  the Old Testament prophet. And they're two different
• 27:26
  ones. So it's kind of like this idea that like,
• 27:29
  you're told that as a kid, but then at some point,
• 27:33
  yeah, you get complacent of like, well, my mom
• 27:35
  said that I was supposed to, you know, be this
• 27:37
  crazy guy that like prepares the way of the Christ.
• 27:40
  The Christ that I've heard about, you know, as
• 27:42
  we talk about the Passover every weekend. And
• 27:46
  like, that's kind of a crazy idea, but then at
• 27:48
  some point it's like, he then goes, no, I am
• 27:51
  the one to prepare the way. And then that's when
• 27:54
  he goes out into the wilderness to wrestle with
• 27:57
  that, you know? Yeah, absolutely. So John the
• 28:00
  Baptist, both the last Old Testament prophet,
• 28:04
  which is interesting to think about. Very fascinating
• 28:06
  idea. And I would argue the first New Testament
• 28:10
  martyr. And I think I actually agree with you
• 28:13
  on that. Or at least one who, when he died, knew
• 28:18
  that his work for Yahweh... was realized in Jesus,
• 28:24
  the one he was doing, he had devoted his life
• 28:27
  to. So John the Baptist devoted his life to Jesus
• 28:32
  and died for what he believed. But what he believed
• 28:37
  started with the Levitical law and ended with
• 28:39
  Jesus before he died. So you could even say he
• 28:42
  kind of prepared the way for Jesus and the early
• 28:46
  church martyrs. For sure. He was the bridge.
• 28:49
  He was the bridge. It's kind of cool. Bridge
• 28:50
  guy. Bridge guy. John the Bridge Baptist. That's
• 28:56
  his middle name. That's his wrestling name. John
• 29:01
  the Bridge Baptist! Three, two, one. Hey Paul.
• 29:07
  Hey Steven. Long time no see. I feel like we
• 29:11
  say hey multiple times in one episode. With every
• 29:14
  section. I'm okay with that though. It's kind
• 29:17
  of like, did we leave for a week and come back?
• 29:20
  Maybe. You don't know. We just keep track of
• 29:23
  what clothes we wear. Yeah. It's like, hey, how
• 29:27
  you been? It takes us like three weeks to record
• 29:30
  one episode. That'd be kind of wild, actually.
• 29:32
  Yeah. I don't think I can handle that. No, I
• 29:35
  would forget everything. We'd have to be like
• 29:37
  years ahead. Maybe we are, though. You don't
• 29:42
  know. You will never know. You might know. Maybe
• 29:45
  a little. Who knows. But I got a little song
• 29:48
  for us. I love that. I love hearing songs. That's
• 29:52
  good. This is the song section You know, it's
• 29:55
  funny. I heard someone recently Because they
• 29:58
  were talking about it like oh, yeah, did you
• 29:59
  guys ever land on a theme song? I'm like you
• 30:02
  haven't been listening They need to catch up.
• 30:06
  Yeah, you need to start catching up. Hey guy
• 30:09
  or lady. You need to catch up. Catch up Also,
• 30:12
  you're not gonna see this until you catch up.
• 30:15
  So hopefully you made it Welcome here is us landing
• 30:20
  on a theme song. Again and again. Maybe. Did
• 30:25
  you say psych? Yeah. Psyche. Psyche. So this
• 30:30
  is fun. I'm actually surprised we haven't played
• 30:32
  around with this before. I love this idea. So
• 30:35
  it's going to be fun. OK. I think you'll catch
• 30:38
  on real quick. Obviously. Are we doing a 10 days
• 30:40
  of market? It's the exact same thing. I can't
• 30:45
  figure out if that one's going to get us in trouble
• 30:46
  or not. I hope it. It does, actually. Me too.
• 30:50
  Yeah, I really hope it does. The Vatican calls.
• 30:54
  They're like, hey, you're cooked. Sorry, you're
• 30:56
  going to be the first martyrs by Christians.
• 31:05
  Are we getting martyred for them? Hang on. Wait
• 31:07
  a minute. Uh -oh. That already happened. It's
• 31:11
  called the Crusades. Oh, yeah, true. Oops. Yeah.
• 31:14
  We should do an episode on those at some point.
• 31:16
  Well, we'll have to talk about the split of the
• 31:18
  orthodox church. We've got a lot to set up before
• 31:20
  we get there. Oh man, that's a lot. So this is
• 31:25
  one where I have an idea of what I want to talk
• 31:27
  about, but lyrics -wise, I'm just kind of making
• 31:30
  them up as I go. We're having fun here. That's
• 31:33
  characteristic of you, though. That's true. You're
• 31:35
  more the music guy. I'm more the lyric guy. Which
• 31:38
  I love lyrics, but... They're hard for me sometimes.
• 31:41
  I love lyrics. I love lyrics. That would be a
• 31:43
  good t -shirt. That would be. I think it's because
• 31:46
  I overthink them too much. And so I just need
• 31:49
  to just throw ideas out and play with the words
• 31:52
  later. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. It's better to go
• 31:56
  pure raw creativity. Yeah. Don't even think about
• 31:59
  the end user or listener. Just do it. Yeah. Just
• 32:01
  do it. And then piece it together later. Or honestly,
• 32:04
  don't. Yeah, just let it be you just let it be
• 32:07
  whatever it is. Yeah, which is fun. It could
• 32:09
  yeah, I love that's something Yeah, well, it's
• 32:12
  funny cuz and I'll say this quick It's funny
• 32:14
  cuz like some of the songs that I've written
• 32:15
  that I'm like, oh man this I really like this
• 32:18
  Yeah, and then some people don't get the lyrics
• 32:20
  at all. Yeah, cuz I've spent too much time over
• 32:23
  Like overdoing it. So it's so obscure what I'm
• 32:26
  trying to say That it's as complicated as the
• 32:30
  pure. Yeah, absolutely And it's like, oh, I should
• 32:34
  have just stuck with what I had originally. People
• 32:36
  could understand it. Or not. It's just as confusing.
• 32:39
  That's true. It's just you've reconciled with
• 32:42
  it. Yeah. You've gone, this is really weird.
• 32:44
  I've polished the confusion. Let me painstakingly
• 32:47
  go through this detail by detail. At least I'll
• 32:51
  understand the confusion. Yeah. I won't explain
• 32:55
  it. I feel like we're just talking about what
• 32:57
  my life is. Nobody gets us. Let me spend a lot
• 33:04
  of time making sure they don't. Side note, this
• 33:07
  is not why we started a podcast. No. Not at all.
• 33:11
  No. Yeah. Song? The song. Here's the song. Let's
• 33:15
  do it. We're on some weird tangents tonight.
• 33:17
  I love it. OK. You ready for this? Yeah. I've
• 33:22
  been thinking about it all day. I'm just excited
• 33:23
  for your expression as soon as I start. OK. Should
• 33:26
  I make no expression? Should I fight it? I want
• 33:29
  you to just be sad. Just cry. I'm like the weeping
• 33:34
  Mary. Here we go. OK. Not that kind of Baptist.
• 34:05
  Now John. You baptized the Lord. The Lord. And
• 34:14
  now John. Now John. You're going to prison John.
• 34:20
  Bye bye. And John. You better look out. Look
• 34:26
  out. They want your head And John, hey John,
• 35:02
  your cousin was Jesus. Jesus was your cousin.
• 35:11
  But John, you better look out. Look out. They
• 35:15
  want you dead. They're coming for you. They want
• 35:25
  you dead. Classic Paul turned around. I lost
• 35:33
  the timing. I love it. You're right. Why have
• 35:40
  we not done a blues thing? I don't know. I was
• 35:42
  like, this is so fun. Well, first of all, there's
• 35:44
  no way I could play a blues guitar part. Like
• 35:48
  that's not something I can do. So that's why
• 35:52
  I haven't done it. I don't know why I haven't
• 35:54
  done it. Yeah, I don't either. I was like, we
• 35:57
  should do this for John. To John. To John. That's
• 36:01
  for John the Baptist. I love that. Let's do it
• 36:04
  one more time. But not that kind of Baptist.
• 36:07
  Let's do it one more time. Okay. And then just
• 36:10
  riff. And then I'll stay in the gaps. I love
• 36:13
  it. Yeah. He was a Baptist. Now John. Oh John.
• 36:36
  Not that kind of Baptist. What? So close. John.
• 36:43
  Oh John. You baptized the Lord. Baptized the
• 36:49
  Lord. John. There's something about you. You're
• 36:58
  going to prison, John. Lock him up. John, you
• 37:04
  better look out. Look out. They want you dead.
• 37:14
  They want you dead. Look out. And now I'm done.
• 37:29
  Yay bucks, John. Ew, gross. That's what I was
• 37:34
  gonna say. It's kinda gross, John. He was a prophet.
• 37:41
  Yeah. Now, John. Now, John. You were the last.
• 37:50
  Of the prophets. But also the first. Of the martyrs.
• 38:12
  It's a weird birthday gift. Look out! Look out,
• 38:16
  John! Look out! They want you dead. Yeah, John.
• 38:28
  Yeah. Oh, John. Brain blank. Three, two, one.
• 38:43
  So I've been thinking about some stuff What you've
• 38:49
  been thinking about the do you have any comfort?
• 38:52
  Albums that you just like listen to all the time.
• 38:54
  I do okay. Yeah name one Name one that you're
• 39:00
  allowed to name okay that's that's fair so my
• 39:04
  my i feel like that should be a caution like
• 39:06
  whoa wait hang on hold on not that one not that
• 39:08
  one pause not just me and you we'll have it there's
• 39:12
  potentially other people that are going to see
• 39:13
  this oh no hello there i would say my comfort
• 39:17
  album is um dancer from nowhere by miho hazama
• 39:23
  never listen to it it's really good you have
• 39:25
  to send it to me yeah i will i like that i like
• 39:28
  comfort records Like I feel like you didn't ask
• 39:32
  me, but I'm gonna tell you what mine I was gonna
• 39:33
  I was gonna ask You didn't ask but you were like
• 39:37
  Well since you asked I'll tell you I Think there's
• 39:46
  one that I always go back to you, but it's kind
• 39:48
  of evolved however Bon Iver's Bon Iver record.
• 39:52
  That's a great album. Yeah, it's but you have
• 39:55
  to listen to it as loud as possible Yeah, just
• 39:58
  so that you're like immersed like that's an immersive
• 40:00
  record That's so there are some albums in the
• 40:03
  comfort albums for me are those where it's like
• 40:04
  I want to just sit down and close my eyes and
• 40:06
  just See the music around me. Yeah transatlantic
• 40:10
  isms like that too. Yeah So that's my every beginning
• 40:13
  of every year. I I listen to that album That's
• 40:16
  cool. I'd like you to make your calendar of things
• 40:19
  that you repeat through the year. Yeah. Because
• 40:22
  you've mentioned that before, that there are
• 40:24
  things that you come back to yearly. Like every
• 40:26
  year. Yeah, you have rituals. We've got some
• 40:27
  traditions. Yeah. I call them rituals. I actually
• 40:32
  like Rituals. That's like the Sufjan Stevens,
• 40:36
  Illinois album. That's another one I'm like,
• 40:40
  I listen to this constantly. No, and the funny
• 40:43
  thing is I've only been to Chicago once. Oh really?
• 40:46
  And it was pretty close to the time where I got
• 40:49
  that record. That's so cool. So I have a pretty
• 40:52
  close memory to traveling to Chicago. That's
• 40:55
  amazing. While also learning that record. I love
• 40:58
  that. Yeah, that's so cool. Because when you're
• 41:02
  driving up south of Chicago on the interstate,
• 41:06
  the roofs of the houses are right next to the
• 41:09
  road. It's this weird thing. But anyways. So
• 41:16
  I think my number one comfort record has been...
• 41:20
  Vince Guaraldi Trio, the Charlie Brown Christmas.
• 41:25
  It's funny we both picked jazz for our comfort.
• 41:27
  Yeah, so I didn't know you picked jazz. Oh yeah,
• 41:29
  I forgot to tell you that piece. You said a bunch
• 41:30
  of words I've never heard before. You're like,
• 41:32
  anyway. Anyway, it sounds like a samurai. Is
• 41:37
  he a samurai jazz artist? He's actually a female.
• 41:42
  Not listening to that. So she's a director. or
• 41:49
  like a, what do you call this one? Conductor,
• 41:53
  thank you. So if I remember right, this is an
• 41:58
  album that she conducted? Like wrote, arranged,
• 42:02
  and conducted. Cool. Yeah, she was really cool.
• 42:05
  Yeah, that's a unique experience. Yeah, yeah.
• 42:08
  It's funny because like, yeah, I feel like there's
• 42:12
  a version of that that happens in the church,
• 42:13
  but it doesn't take the same amount of skill.
• 42:19
  It can. It can, but in modern churches it doesn't.
• 42:25
  Like the skill is more focused on the spiritual
• 42:27
  side versus the technical musical side that then
• 42:30
  through that could be spiritual. Do you know
• 42:33
  what I mean? It's like that weird transition
• 42:36
  that we've hit in corporate worship where we've
• 42:38
  pulled away from the awe of like Handel's Messiah
• 42:42
  is a classic one to go to. It's like there's
• 42:44
  a lot of complexity here. It's very awe -inspiring.
• 42:47
  but you would never expect that on a Sunday morning.
• 42:49
  Right. Because it seems in contrast to what the
• 42:51
  goal is now for worship music. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
• 42:56
  But Vince Guaraldi. Yes. Great album. So it made
• 43:00
  me think. You know, I was you know, we did last
• 43:07
  episode. We kind of talked about this passage
• 43:11
  in Revelation. Got me thinking a little bit about.
• 43:15
  Oh. a specific name. And I have a question about
• 43:24
  it that I'm hoping you can help me with. Is it
• 43:27
  Vince? I've come here tonight. I want to convince
• 43:31
  you. I've come here tonight with a quest to have
• 43:37
  a question answered. Dang. And my question is,
• 43:44
  are the Nicolaitans A cult of St. Nicholas. Dang!
• 43:59
  And that's all folks. And see you next week.
• 44:03
  And scene. No, that's such a fascinating question.
• 44:10
  Yeah, to be honest, I didn't know that I could
• 44:12
  get it all the way out. You did it perfectly.
• 44:14
  Thank you. It was beautiful. Thanks. Poetic.
• 44:17
  I just came here to ask the question, and have
• 44:19
  you, like, inspired by how great it sounded?
• 44:24
  And I love that you brought up the Peanuts Christmas
• 44:27
  album to lead into St. Nicholas. Yeah. It's so
• 44:30
  great. A little sneaky there. It's like Christmas
• 44:33
  in July here. Yeah. I mean, I love Christmas
• 44:35
  all the time. Do you know why? Are you a constant
• 44:38
  Christmas boy? Well, I'm a Christian. True. So,
• 44:42
  yeah. You kind of have to be. Well... You could
• 44:46
  be a resurrection guy. Big resurrection guy.
• 44:50
  Hey, big resurrection guy over here. Hey, get
• 44:52
  a load of this resurrection guy. That would be
• 44:56
  a good shirt. Look at this guy. Look at this
• 44:59
  resurrection guy. Big resurrection guy over here.
• 45:02
  Why can't we say it? It's hard. It's a lot of
• 45:05
  syllables. A lot of S's. You know how many shirt
• 45:09
  ideas we've had in this show? Yeah, it's been
• 45:11
  a while, though. I feel like we were popping
• 45:14
  off left and right with them, but. Yeah. Still
• 45:16
  gotta build that website. Yeah. At websites .com.
• 45:21
  Sponsoring this show today. Websites .com. Go
• 45:26
  to websites .com now for your website needs,
• 45:29
  and you'll find them there at websites .com.
• 45:32
  You can email Stephen at martyrsrow .com forward
• 45:36
  slash websites. And enter discount code yes.
• 45:42
  with three S's, yes. I think we should also make
• 45:46
  like a pocket tee. Okay. But then there's also
• 45:49
  - This says websites .com? Yeah. Just for no
• 45:51
  reason. And then there's also like more pockets,
• 45:54
  but they're part of the print and they're not
• 45:55
  real pockets. Okay. You've talked about multiple
• 45:58
  pockets before. Big pocket guy. I want like a
• 46:01
  removable pocket. Velcro, it's not a bad idea.
• 46:04
  What's up with my thing in pockets? I don't know.
• 46:06
  You either don't like them or you want way too
• 46:08
  many. No pockets. I thought there was a pocket
• 46:10
  on this one. How dare that shirt. See, if I had
• 46:13
  a removable pocket, I could just hold on. Depending
• 46:16
  on who you're hanging out with. There's a pocket.
• 46:18
  If you're hanging out with me, you had a pocket.
• 46:19
  I had a pocket? I have no pockets tonight. Uh
• 46:21
  oh. We're pocketless. So. But you know who wasn't
• 46:28
  pocketless? Who? The children that put their
• 46:31
  stuff out for Saint Nicholas. They still were
• 46:37
  those were stockings. Yeah in boots True. Yeah
• 46:43
  Yeah, but so um It's funny so when you look at
• 46:49
  the I the idea of like the Nicolaitans, okay
• 46:51
  It seems like oh they probably started from some
• 46:54
  guy Nicholas make sense. Yeah, they named after
• 46:57
  themselves or they're from nickel Nicolaitans
• 47:00
  Nikola Nikola Nikola Nikola town Nikola town
• 47:06
  Nikola Tesla Are you here in three? Surprise
• 47:17
  this whole podcast has been leading up to this
• 47:19
  moment Nikolai Tesla, here you are. Here you
• 47:24
  are. Big Nikolaitan guy. Big Nikolaitan guy over
• 47:28
  here. Get a load of this Nikolaitan guy. Tesla,
• 47:33
  Shmeshla, who's Elon? I don't know. Who's Elon?
• 47:37
  What are we, in the pyramids or something? What's
• 47:40
  going on here? A bunch of power plants? What
• 47:43
  are we doing? Witwily, some kind of pyramid guy.
• 47:47
  Witwily? Oritually? I guess part of the question
• 47:51
  there is, okay, so who is this Nicholas guy?
• 47:55
  Who is the Nicholas guy? You know what I mean?
• 47:56
  Because it's like there's several Nicolases that
• 47:58
  we... Nicolai? Nicolases? Yeah, Nicolais. Many
• 48:04
  Nicolais. Many people named Nicolais. Oh, you're
• 48:07
  saying... Floral Nicolais. Many, many Nicolais.
• 48:13
  Nicolais. That's like a gaggle of Nicolaises.
• 48:20
  of people named Nicholas. Yeah. Because you can't
• 48:22
  say Nicolases when you're saying Nicolai. Yeah.
• 48:27
  You know Nicolai like a gaggle of Nicolases?
• 48:30
  I love that there's a gaggle. No, Nicolai, a
• 48:35
  gaggle of people named Nicholas. Yes. I'm here
• 48:39
  for it. A gaggle of Nicolai. So then are you
• 48:42
  saying that the Nicolaitans are just a bunch
• 48:44
  of people named Nicholas? Well, that's part of
• 48:46
  the question. Is it? It is now But so I guess
• 48:51
  the question really is okay So who who was the
• 48:55
  Nicholas that they're basing their doctrine off
• 48:56
  of was he Santa Claus and that's a good question
• 48:59
  That's where we're at. Yeah, that's why I said
• 49:01
  to get us all the way back. Okay? So part of
• 49:05
  that is I want to know Tesla please show me this
• 49:15
  one actually is recorded for him Yes, it definitely
• 49:18
  is. At least we'll be done by 4 a .m. Yeah, true.
• 49:22
  Which is weird because that's when it came out.
• 49:24
  What? We don't edit anything. So we'll be finished.
• 49:28
  We finish every episode right before 4 a .m.
• 49:31
  At 3 .55. And then we go enter the website world,
• 49:37
  www .website .com. forward slash where it goes.
• 49:42
  Where it goes. Backslash 10 % discount. On what?
• 49:49
  Who knows? Do you want 10 % off websites .com?
• 49:53
  So do we. You've arrived, Margaret Rose. We would
• 49:56
  also like that. So Santa Claus has a website.
• 50:00
  He does. Websites .com. Forward slash Santy.
• 50:06
  Santi. Nikolai. Nikolai Santi. Nikolai Santi,
• 50:12
  10%. It's a gaggle of Nicholas' Santi Santa Clauses.
• 50:19
  That's the shirt, a gaggle of Nikolai. No, Nikolases.
• 50:24
  Nikolases. A gaggle of Nikolases. And then on
• 50:28
  the back it just says Nikolai. Websites .com.
• 50:32
  Brought to you by websites .com. So what? We're
• 50:37
  the Nicolaitans. A bunch of people. Whenever
• 50:41
  I start, we just spiral out immediately. Paul,
• 50:49
  I wanna know! Tell me! Wait, for first. Okay.
• 50:52
  So, who is Saint Nicholas? Yeah, who was he so
• 50:56
  he's the one that we often associate with the
• 50:59
  modern -day santa claus. I'm leaving and I'm
• 51:01
  out of here. How dare you say that? um, and actually
• 51:05
  I did a tipsy theology christmas episode about
• 51:08
  This so you can watch it in depth about how we
• 51:11
  watch. website .com backslash tipsy theology
• 51:21
  Discount code, 10 % off. The discount code is
• 51:25
  10 % off. I totally lost the plot at this point.
• 51:28
  Santy, Santa Claus. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
• 51:31
  Saint Nicholas. Saint Nicholas. So who was Saint
• 51:33
  Nicholas? So Saint Nicholas, there's actually
• 51:34
  a lot of legends about him. I love legends. And
• 51:37
  like, the short of it, none that apply to him,
• 51:41
  associate him with the Nicolaitans. Okay, well
• 51:44
  you just ruined the whole thing. I did. Oh man.
• 51:46
  I'm so sorry. Well. So not that one. Okay. Not
• 51:49
  that Nicholas. So not that one? Not that one.
• 51:52
  Okay. But there are more Nicolases. Nicolai?
• 51:55
  Nicolai. I feel like I had to just say that quickly
• 51:59
  because I knew we'd never get to it. Where can
• 52:01
  these Nicolai be found? But if I were a Nicolai...
• 52:05
  Where would I be? And who would I be leading?
• 52:08
  Do we have any other Nicolases? We do, actually.
• 52:14
  Okay. In the last episode, we... We're on a hunt
• 52:17
  to find who are Nicolases. Uh, oh, where is my
• 52:22
  hairbrush? That is not what was in my head. That's
• 52:24
  the first song that came out. What's the... Oh,
• 52:28
  where is Nicholas? That doesn't feel very Christmassy,
• 52:32
  though. It kind of does. Where is Nicholas? Have
• 52:37
  you seen my Nikolai? I'm looking for a gaggle
• 52:40
  of Nikolai. What's the Carmen Sandiego? Oh, where
• 52:43
  in the world is Carmen Sandiego? That's what
• 52:44
  I was trying to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:46
  Yeah. You ever just verbalize something knowing
• 52:49
  that it's not what you're thinking? Yes. And
• 52:51
  then have to explain yourself? The problem I
• 52:54
  have is I try to change it mid -sentence. I know.
• 52:57
  That's why I'll say like a word doesn't make
• 52:59
  any sense if I'm trying to say two words at the
• 53:01
  same time. I love it. So there are other Nikolai.
• 53:05
  Okay. And they can be found. Oh. In the Bible.
• 53:11
  So Nikolai, the interesting thing about Revelation
• 53:13
  2, which we talked about, a lot in the last episode.
• 53:18
  Well, I guess we talked about one specific area
• 53:21
  and one specific space in Revelation 2. It's
• 53:28
  one of the churches in the Asia Minor. But it
• 53:31
  references the Nicolaitans. And most of those
• 53:34
  people are Like most of the people that are referenced
• 53:39
  in Revelation 2 are referencing a region or church
• 53:42
  They're not necessarily referencing a specific
• 53:44
  guy and the followers of that guy. Oh interesting
• 53:47
  Do you know what I mean? So like in Revelation
• 53:48
  2 is you have the seven churches. Yeah, but it's
• 53:51
  not followers of That person like it's not a
• 53:54
  church at Ephesus people who follow a man named
• 53:58
  Ephesus True. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
• 54:00
  Yeah, so like it's interesting to have this here.
• 54:03
  However, it is paired with doctrine of Balaam
• 54:06
  Yes, so because it is paired with the doctrine
• 54:09
  of Balaam or bala bala Balik balik balik. Yeah,
• 54:13
  there you go Doctrine of Balaam who taught Balaam,
• 54:18
  right? Yeah, so that is linked Yes, and we'll
• 54:22
  get into that. Yeah, cuz they're that it's contextual
• 54:26
  insight Yes, like they're intentionally linked
• 54:29
  because they're related to each other Yes, we're
• 54:31
  not really told exactly like what they believe
• 54:33
  no, but we're not there yet. Okay Who are they?
• 54:37
  True. So who are the Nicolaitans? So there's,
• 54:42
  this is, um, this is hotly debated, but also
• 54:47
  I feel like I've never heard anybody talk about
• 54:49
  it. You know what I mean? Like, so I've looked,
• 54:52
  I've looked this up. I've done research on this
• 54:53
  and, and mainly because it's one of those things
• 54:56
  where I've heard doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
• 54:59
  I've heard that many times, but every time I've
• 55:03
  gone to go, Oh, okay. Wait, Revelation two says
• 55:07
  the Lord hates the doctrine of the spoken very
• 55:10
  strongly against. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Like
• 55:13
  the Lord hates the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
• 55:15
  Yeah. But then it doesn't say what the doctrine
• 55:17
  of Nicolaitans is. True. So the interesting thing
• 55:20
  about that is like whenever I've heard somebody
• 55:22
  say that, like a preacher mentioning it, it's
• 55:25
  like this is the same as the doctrine of the
• 55:28
  Nicolaitans, which the Lord hates. Then I go
• 55:31
  to Revelation 2, and it doesn't tell me what
• 55:33
  the doctrine of the Nicolaitans is. Right. But
• 55:37
  we see they're kind of spread out, though. What
• 55:39
  do you mean? As far as, like, they're mentioned
• 55:41
  in the church to Ephesus and also the church
• 55:43
  in Pergamum. Oh, right. So it's like, okay, they're
• 55:46
  at least in two big places. They are. Yeah. So
• 55:49
  they're, because of that, you also step back
• 55:52
  into this, there's a larger, a doctrine going
• 55:56
  on here that is a prominent doctrine at the time
• 56:01
  in the Asia Minor. So it seems like they would
• 56:03
  have been pretty popular in that area, like those
• 56:05
  ideas would be known. Right, and it's related
• 56:10
  in Revelation to like 11, I think, oh I'll have
• 56:12
  to go back into it, where it's held hand in hand
• 56:17
  with the doctrine of Balaam, taught to Balak,
• 56:23
  where those two things are linked, but the Nicolaitans
• 56:27
  are not mentioned in the Old Testament. So it's
• 56:31
  kind of, it's referencing back to this is an
• 56:35
  evolution, the way it's written out, it's going
• 56:37
  like this is an evolution of this. The doctrine
• 56:40
  of Nicolaitans is giving you context for that.
• 56:43
  But then I've heard preachers, when they've said
• 56:45
  it, it's been like, well, hang on, what's here,
• 56:49
  that doesn't look like what you're saying. So
• 56:52
  that means that whatever you're saying the doctrine
• 56:54
  of the Nicolaitans is, is not plain right here.
• 56:57
  So who are the Nicolaitans and why does what
• 57:00
  you're saying about them, how do I know that
• 57:04
  God hates that because that's not the same thing
• 57:06
  as the doctrine of Balaam. So then my question
• 57:10
  has been that I've just put on the back shelf
• 57:12
  of my brain is I need to research what the doctrine
• 57:15
  of the Nicolaitans is. Because people keep talking
• 57:17
  about it or I've heard it. mentioned as like,
• 57:20
  this is what it is, but I've never seen that
• 57:22
  in the Bible. Yeah, it doesn't actually tell
• 57:24
  us what they believe. It's not plainly there.
• 57:26
  Yeah. Unless you know the context of what's being
• 57:29
  talked about. True. Yeah, true. So then you kind
• 57:32
  of go to like, all right, well, the doctrine
• 57:35
  of the Nicolaitans, is there a Nicolai? And in
• 57:41
  the last episode we did read this, but I'll pull
• 57:44
  it up again. So Acts 6 is kind of where you see
• 57:47
  this guy named Nicholas who's related to this
• 57:50
  area in this region where we read in Revelation
• 57:54
  2, which I think in the last episode we read
• 57:57
  from Revelation 2 specifically. I believe we
• 57:59
  did, yeah. But here we have basically what happened
• 58:04
  is that the... in the early church in Acts chapter
• 58:09
  6, what you have is the church is rapidly growing.
• 58:13
  And so there's all these needs of the people.
• 58:15
  And the beautiful thing about the early church
• 58:17
  that still exists in like Eastern Orthodox Church
• 58:21
  and exists in some community churches and things
• 58:24
  now, even Protestant community churches. Like
• 58:28
  one of the things that you see is this community
• 58:31
  aspect of everybody gave what they had in order
• 58:35
  in order to level out the playing field. So like
• 58:39
  you have this, I mean, a lot of people are like,
• 58:41
  well, early Christians were communists. It's
• 58:43
  like not exactly. But they did take care of one
• 58:45
  another. Yeah. And that's not exactly communism.
• 58:49
  Community. Yeah. It's just yeah. So so you have
• 58:53
  that idea happening here. And what happens is
• 58:56
  it says now in these days, when the disciples
• 58:58
  were increasing in number, a complaint by the
• 59:01
  Hellenists, so the Greek people who who are basically
• 59:05
  the ones brought in, they're the workers that
• 59:07
  come at the end of the day, right, in the parable.
• 59:10
  Where the workers that come at the beginning
• 59:12
  of the day but still get paid the same wage,
• 59:14
  those are the Jewish people. And so you see that
• 59:17
  where it's like, all right, well, so these ones
• 59:20
  that came after, the Hebrews are not treating
• 59:22
  them right. It says, Hellenists arose against
• 59:25
  the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected
• 59:28
  in the daily distribution. And the 12 summoned
• 59:31
  the full number of the disciples and said, it
• 59:34
  is not right that we should give up preaching
• 59:36
  the word of God to serve tables. They weren't
• 59:39
  saying this work is above us. What they were
• 59:41
  saying is what we're doing is extremely important
• 59:44
  and we are specifically called to do it. Yes.
• 59:46
  However, the collective group needs to take care
• 59:49
  of each other. Yeah. So we're calling out leaders
• 59:52
  that can take care of that for you while you
• 59:56
  don't necessarily need to come to. talk to us
• 59:58
  about it anymore, because we need to devote ourselves
• 1:00:00
  to the word and prayer. Yeah. So then it says,
• 1:00:06
  Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you
• 1:00:10
  seven men of good repute, full of the spirit
• 1:00:13
  and of wisdom, who we will appoint to this duty,
• 1:00:16
  but we will devote ourselves to prayer and to
• 1:00:18
  the ministry of the word. And what they said
• 1:00:21
  pleased the whole gathering. which is kind of
• 1:00:24
  a cool idea. It's like, hey, there's an issue,
• 1:00:27
  can you guys help us? All right, well, we need
• 1:00:30
  to stay devoted to the word and to prayer. The
• 1:00:32
  numbers are growing larger, you guys are a bigger
• 1:00:34
  group, and we want that to grow and grow and
• 1:00:37
  grow, but we need to stay pure. So, hey, let's
• 1:00:43
  gather seven liters, which is a complete number.
• 1:00:48
  kind of plays out also through the early church
• 1:00:50
  becoming the Catholic church, which then splits
• 1:00:53
  into the Eastern Orthodox Church. They still
• 1:00:55
  function in that seven leads. We also see in
• 1:00:59
  Revelation two, there's seven churches. So there's
• 1:01:03
  that idea of that council, that group of seven.
• 1:01:08
  And then the group is like, hey, yeah, we like
• 1:01:12
  this idea. I think this makes sense. And what
• 1:01:15
  they said pleased the whole gathering and they
• 1:01:17
  chose Stephen a man full of faith and of the
• 1:01:20
  and of the Holy Spirit And it's funny. We joked
• 1:01:23
  last episode that like that's expressed about
• 1:01:26
  Stephen Well, to be honest, it also says up here
• 1:01:29
  Therefore brothers pick out from among you seven
• 1:01:31
  men of good repute full of the spirit and of
• 1:01:33
  wisdom and the first person they named they say
• 1:01:37
  they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of
• 1:01:39
  the Holy Spirit. So it's like they're just reiterating.
• 1:01:42
  Like making sure you know that. Yeah. Yeah. It's
• 1:01:44
  like, hey, we should pick this out. And so then
• 1:01:48
  they're saying, hey, here's Stephen, who is that?
• 1:01:51
  Yeah. Yeah. And then they don't say it again
• 1:01:53
  because it's assumed. Right. Yeah. Follow the
• 1:01:56
  pattern. Yeah. So and then Philip and Prochorus
• 1:02:00
  and Nicanor and Timon leave out Pumbaa. I made
• 1:02:06
  that joke last episode, sorry. It works, it works.
• 1:02:09
  And Parmenius, and Nicholas. St. Nicholas? No,
• 1:02:17
  a proselyte of Antioch. So you go, okay, so that
• 1:02:24
  actually is what it says. and Nicholas, a proselyte
• 1:02:27
  of Antioch. So what that means is at the top,
• 1:02:30
  they don't give any descriptors of the other
• 1:02:33
  six except for Stephen, but all they describe
• 1:02:36
  is what the apostles told them they needed to
• 1:02:41
  look for in these seven leaders. So they just
• 1:02:44
  said, yeah, you guys know Stephen, he's full
• 1:02:46
  of faith and full of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. As
• 1:02:49
  is Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenius,
• 1:02:55
  and Nicholas, a proselyte of Antioch. Weird that
• 1:02:59
  they would just say that about Nicholas, right?
• 1:03:02
  So then we go, all right, well, a lot of people
• 1:03:04
  point to, is Nicholas, was Nicholas in Acts six
• 1:03:09
  that we just read, is he the leader of the Nicolaitans?
• 1:03:14
  Which is, it's interesting because the seven
• 1:03:18
  churches in Revelation two, they're followers
• 1:03:21
  of Christ. They're not followers of Let's say
• 1:03:26
  they're not followers of Paul. They're not followers
• 1:03:28
  of Apollos. They're not followers of those great
• 1:03:33
  preachers, right? They're not followers of those
• 1:03:36
  great apostles. They're followers of Christ.
• 1:03:39
  So we're to go like, all right, well, Nicholas
• 1:03:42
  is one of the seven chosen, and what's his job?
• 1:03:47
  His job as part of the seven is to help make
• 1:03:50
  sure that the disciples And by the disciples,
• 1:03:54
  I don't mean the apostles. At this point, any
• 1:03:58
  Christ follower who has essentially abandoned
• 1:04:02
  their life for the sake of the gospel, basically
• 1:04:06
  Christians were disciples. That's what they called
• 1:04:09
  them right there in Acts six. They brought together
• 1:04:12
  all of them, right? And as we look at that, you
• 1:04:16
  kind of go like, all right, well. this group,
• 1:04:19
  what was the job of those seven people which
• 1:04:22
  Nicholas is a part of as well as Stephen and
• 1:04:25
  Philip and the others? Their job was to make
• 1:04:29
  sure things were distributed correctly and that
• 1:04:31
  everybody was taken care of. Yeah. Right? So
• 1:04:34
  why would people be followers of Nicholas? Wouldn't
• 1:04:42
  that be contrary to his job and his role within
• 1:04:48
  the early church. Yes. But it's kind of, isn't
• 1:04:53
  it kind of interesting though, because you reminded
• 1:04:55
  me of this, that don't we see a scene where this
• 1:05:01
  kind of question is brought up and like, oh,
• 1:05:02
  we follow Paul. Right. And he's like, no, you
• 1:05:05
  don't. Right. Yeah. So it's like, it's not an
• 1:05:10
  uncommon thing that they would follow one specific
• 1:05:13
  person. Yeah, I think it's actually in Corinthians.
• 1:05:16
  You might be right. But yeah, but then we see
• 1:05:20
  this correction of like, no, no, no, you don't
• 1:05:22
  follow him. You follow Christ. Right. Yeah. So
• 1:05:25
  there was like a movement within the early church
• 1:05:29
  to be like, let's make sure everybody knows.
• 1:05:31
  Right. You're not following my teachings. You're
• 1:05:33
  following Christ's teachings. And I'm just the
• 1:05:35
  one saying them. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
• 1:05:40
  Yeah. So, so there is... there is some early
• 1:05:44
  church fathers that have written about this a
• 1:05:46
  little bit too. So you kind of go like, all right,
• 1:05:49
  well, was Nicholas the one that was related to
• 1:05:51
  that? Well, it doesn't really make sense. Like
• 1:05:55
  as a modern reader, when I look at it, I'm like,
• 1:05:57
  I don't understand how that would correlate.
• 1:05:59
  Like based on what his job was supposed to be.
• 1:06:01
  Now, the thing that is interesting is that in
• 1:06:05
  Revelation, and let me pull that up because,
• 1:06:08
  so in Revelation two, when it's talking it, when
• 1:06:13
  he's, what is it? To the angel at the church,
• 1:06:20
  right? So it goes from Ephesus to Smyrna to Pergamum.
• 1:06:25
  And to the angel of the church in Pergamum, it's
• 1:06:29
  written there about the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
• 1:06:33
  I think we see it in the church letter Ephesus
• 1:06:37
  as well. In the letter, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually,
• 1:06:42
  I hadn't pulled that part up. Oh yeah, verse
• 1:06:46
  six, Revelation two, yet this you have, you hate
• 1:06:50
  the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
• 1:06:54
  He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the
• 1:06:56
  Spirit says to the churches. Yeah, so I mean,
• 1:06:58
  you also have this element here, which is kind
• 1:07:00
  of interesting. So we'll jump back to that in
• 1:07:02
  a minute when we get into the doctrine a little
• 1:07:04
  bit. But in Pergamum, so we talked about this
• 1:07:07
  in the last episode, but Pergamum, is a, it's
• 1:07:12
  a central city to the Asia Minor. So it's intentional,
• 1:07:19
  it's intentionally a religious hub. So of the
• 1:07:23
  ancient world. Like pre -Rome, it's a religious
• 1:07:26
  hub. As Rome comes in, and we talked about -
• 1:07:29
  We talked about the Temple of Zeus and - Yeah,
• 1:07:31
  yeah, yeah. And there was like the guy who, like
• 1:07:35
  the guy who, his grandfather, He was like the
• 1:07:40
  king of Asia Minor. And he had a good relationship
• 1:07:44
  with Rome as Rome was rising. And then his grandson,
• 1:07:49
  I forget what his name was, but the third of
• 1:07:51
  this guy. So the grandson of that guy, on his
• 1:07:54
  death, gifts basically the Asia Minor to Rome.
• 1:08:00
  And that opens up all the trade routes, it opens
• 1:08:02
  up the opportunity for the Christians to come
• 1:08:04
  up out of Israel through. through modern day
• 1:08:06
  Turkey over into what is now modern day Italy,
• 1:08:11
  into Rome, into Europe, basically, which is pretty
• 1:08:15
  cool. But the important thing about that is Pergamum
• 1:08:19
  is like, it's on a mountain and yeah, it has
• 1:08:24
  temple of Zeus. And then it has basically anything
• 1:08:29
  that you would need and ask a spiritual being
• 1:08:34
  for help. there was a temple to one of those
• 1:08:37
  gods. So it's not much different than this hub
• 1:08:42
  that we see in Rome when Paul visits. But in
• 1:08:48
  this place though, there are all kinds of specific
• 1:08:53
  temples and there's a lot of things going on.
• 1:08:57
  And that area too is, oh let me pull that up,
• 1:09:01
  because Antioch is specific to this area. Yeah,
• 1:09:06
  so Pergamon, it was a Greek city located in Anatolia,
• 1:09:12
  now part of Turkey. So Anatolia, that's Antioch,
• 1:09:18
  Anatolia, it's not like they sound the same.
• 1:09:21
  It's like no, they're evolutions of, like it's
• 1:09:23
  the same region. We're seeing this transition
• 1:09:25
  into, yeah. Right, so if we look back. That's
• 1:09:31
  where early church fathers have associated Nicholas
• 1:09:34
  of Acts 2, who was a proselyte or a person converted
• 1:09:38
  to Christianity, in Antioch. Then Nicholas was
• 1:09:43
  potentially from Antioch. I mean, we don't have
• 1:09:46
  any reason not to believe that, which is in the
• 1:09:50
  region where Pergamum is. it's in the region
• 1:09:52
  where Ephesus would be. It's in the Asia Minor.
• 1:09:56
  He's from the Asia Minor, and he's from one of
• 1:09:59
  the hub areas. So you kind of go like, all right,
• 1:10:01
  it's weird that he was the only one mentioned,
• 1:10:03
  which is why I think some of the early church
• 1:10:04
  fathers kind of related to him. Yeah. Do you
• 1:10:07
  know which early church father? There was a couple.
• 1:10:11
  There are a few. I'm trying to think if there's
• 1:10:13
  one in particular you're about to bring up. It
• 1:10:16
  starts with an I. Oh my gosh, why can't I think
• 1:10:20
  of his name? Let's see how well you remember.
• 1:10:23
  It's like Arrhenius, but. That's it. Oh, Arrhenius,
• 1:10:26
  that's what I say. Arrhenius. Is that how you
• 1:10:28
  say it? I don't know. Yeah. You say Augustine.
• 1:10:30
  That's true. I say Augustine. That's because
• 1:10:34
  I'm from Florida. That's true. But. Got St. Augustine
• 1:10:37
  and St. Augustine. Yeah, so Irene. Augustine.
• 1:10:41
  Arrhenius, is that how you say it? Arrhenius.
• 1:10:43
  Arrhenius. I'm probably saying, I think I've
• 1:10:45
  said it different every time now. I -R -E -N
• 1:10:48
  -A -E -U -S. if you're interested. He basically
• 1:10:53
  repeats the biblical material, adding, meaning
• 1:10:56
  referring to Acts 6, adding the assertion that
• 1:11:00
  the Nicolaitans were heretical followers of Nicholas,
• 1:11:04
  the proselyte of Antioch who was chosen to be
• 1:11:07
  one of the seven in Acts 6 -5. So he basically
• 1:11:11
  repeats the biblical material and then he adds
• 1:11:15
  an assertion that the Nicolaitans were heretical
• 1:11:19
  followers of Nicholas. Hippolytus underscores
• 1:11:28
  Irenaeus, that's how I say it. Yeah, go for it.
• 1:11:32
  Adding that Nicholas departed from true doctrine.
• 1:11:36
  So at some point Nicholas would have departed
• 1:11:38
  from true doctrine, which kind of makes sense.
• 1:11:42
  If Nicholas is from Antioch and goes back to
• 1:11:46
  Antioch, and he was a proselyte, so he was converted,
• 1:11:52
  that means he was converted from another religion,
• 1:11:55
  then falling back into his old religion. You
• 1:11:58
  could've tried to blend these two things together.
• 1:12:00
  Right, it kind of makes sense. But, Irenaeus
• 1:12:04
  is the one early on, he's like one of the main
• 1:12:07
  ones that made the assertion that these two are
• 1:12:10
  the same people. So it was the idea that Nicholas,
• 1:12:16
  even though he was converted to Christianity,
• 1:12:19
  went back to where he lived, and then kind of
• 1:12:21
  blended both Christianity and his pagan religion
• 1:12:26
  that he had just been a proselyte of, that he
• 1:12:29
  had just been taken out of. And so then it would
• 1:12:32
  make sense that people would follow him, because
• 1:12:36
  they're following his version. And he changed
• 1:12:39
  it. He would have changed it, right? So it says,
• 1:12:44
  Nicholas departed from the true doctrine. Clement
• 1:12:46
  of Alexandria claims that Nicholas was an ascetic
• 1:12:50
  and then current Nicolaitans were not his true
• 1:12:55
  followers because they perverted his teaching
• 1:12:57
  that was necessary to abuse the flesh. So yeah,
• 1:13:04
  so even that language is like kind of confusing
• 1:13:06
  a little bit where it's like, wait, so. Clement
• 1:13:10
  of Alexandria is saying that Nicholas had a teaching
• 1:13:15
  that it was necessary to abuse the flesh. But
• 1:13:20
  that the Nicolaitans were not his true followers
• 1:13:23
  because they perverted his teaching. Yeah, that's
• 1:13:27
  really interesting. Because that is perverted
• 1:13:29
  teaching, being perverted by Nicolaitans. Which
• 1:13:33
  would kind of mean that like, it kind of alludes
• 1:13:36
  to the idea that Nicholas Had and this is kind
• 1:13:41
  of this is an early church father discussion.
• 1:13:43
  This is not like right what the Bible says Yeah,
• 1:13:46
  this is early church father discussion within
• 1:13:48
  the second We know who this guy is. So let's
• 1:13:51
  yeah figure out what he's up to Yeah, and maybe
• 1:13:53
  the way of like us talking about a pastor. Well,
• 1:13:56
  but think about like so a pastor sign my pastors
• 1:13:59
  but right but it would also be a a later generation
• 1:14:03
  talking about an earlier generation. Because
• 1:14:06
  that's kind of what Clement of Alexandria is
• 1:14:08
  saying. He's kind of saying that basically, Nicholas
• 1:14:13
  did have a teaching about the abusing of flesh.
• 1:14:20
  That then the Nicolaitans of Revelation 2 took
• 1:14:26
  that teaching and perverted it even more. That's
• 1:14:29
  what that's saying. That's interesting. So it's
• 1:14:32
  like the Nicolaitans that are being talked about
• 1:14:35
  there are actually even worse. So they're perverting
• 1:14:40
  the perversion. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.
• 1:14:43
  So but that's that's what like these early church
• 1:14:45
  fathers kind of associate that like this guy
• 1:14:48
  named Nicholas, who was a church leader, essentially.
• 1:14:54
  He perverted the gospel. And I think they take
• 1:14:58
  that from the fact that he's the only one mentioned
• 1:15:00
  of like, he was a proselyte of Antioch. Weird
• 1:15:04
  thing to mention of just one of the seven guys.
• 1:15:07
  True. Yeah, it's true. Because even the setup
• 1:15:09
  of who Steven is, just is a qualifier for all
• 1:15:12
  the people. For the rest of them, yeah. Yeah,
• 1:15:14
  so it's an interesting idea. And again, it kind
• 1:15:16
  of goes back to that, the image that we've talked
• 1:15:20
  about several times on the podcast, is that people
• 1:15:24
  aren't just set in stone like that. What do you
• 1:15:27
  mean? um good follow -up question so like we
• 1:15:31
  see Nicholas it's like okay so he was chosen
• 1:15:33
  in act six because he was um filled with the
• 1:15:38
  holy spirit and he what was what were the two
• 1:15:40
  qualifiers oh oh right like filled with wisdom
• 1:15:43
  yeah so it's like because of those so it's like
• 1:15:45
  we know at one point he did possess those things
• 1:15:48
  yes and demonstrated them really well right but
• 1:15:51
  then it's like it seems as if over time he let
• 1:15:56
  Other things start to pervert his view of the
• 1:15:59
  gospel. Sure. So it's like, yeah, so he got He
• 1:16:02
  started to to deconvert. I guess Well, I mean,
• 1:16:06
  you know what I mean? It's like his thoughts
• 1:16:08
  then began to change and Started to become a
• 1:16:10
  perversion of what the gospel taught. Yes And
• 1:16:13
  so it's like it's not like Act six says yeah,
• 1:16:16
  this is who he was and that's who he was till
• 1:16:17
  the day he died It's like no, this is who he
• 1:16:20
  was but then he became that right because he
• 1:16:22
  wasn't diligent right Yeah, I mean, so then it
• 1:16:27
  says, just this article on this says, yet there
• 1:16:32
  is no evidence in the early church of alternate
• 1:16:34
  explanations or a challenge to the statements
• 1:16:38
  of these men, referring to Clement of Alexandria
• 1:16:40
  and Irenaeus, except to say that the Nicolaitans
• 1:16:44
  misrepresented the true teachings of Nicholas.
• 1:16:48
  Perhaps the Nicolaitans distorted the teachings
• 1:16:51
  of Nicholas in a similar way the antinomian sex
• 1:16:55
  throughout history have distorted Paul's teaching
• 1:16:58
  on liberty. So now you're starting to start to
• 1:17:03
  slightly get into what is the doctrine of the
• 1:17:06
  Nicolaitans. Because Paul's teaching on liberty
• 1:17:10
  is like their distortion of it would be something
• 1:17:14
  that we see a lot today, which would be like,
• 1:17:17
  the hot button phrase would be more like hyper
• 1:17:20
  grace. So that would just be an extension of
• 1:17:24
  an abuse of the liberty of what is freely given
• 1:17:30
  in salvation. That grace covers it all. And it's
• 1:17:33
  kind of like an abuse to the point where it's
• 1:17:35
  actually just perverted. It's actually a heresy.
• 1:17:39
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do you want to get into
• 1:17:44
  the doctrine of Nicolaitans? I'm excited. Let's
• 1:17:46
  do it. Oh, OK, OK, OK. Well, so I guess to button
• 1:17:48
  that part of it up. So it seems like, yes, these
• 1:17:51
  people are attached to Nicholas of Antioch that
• 1:17:54
  we see in Acts 6. But is that actually from what
• 1:18:00
  he taught? Well, it seems like even the Church
• 1:18:02
  Fathers, like, no, they are a perversion. But
• 1:18:06
  the question mark is, did Nicholas actually teach
• 1:18:10
  things that led to that. Like was he misunderstood
• 1:18:12
  the same way Paul was with his teaching on liberty?
• 1:18:15
  Or was he actually... Yeah, teaching a false
• 1:18:18
  doctrine. Yeah, which then led to an even more
• 1:18:21
  false doctrine. There you go. A false eye. So
• 1:18:25
  it seems like with him, it's like that's kind
• 1:18:27
  of the question mark about him as a person. Yeah,
• 1:18:30
  is he the Nicholas of the Nicolaitans? Right.
• 1:18:33
  And it seems like at least the other Church Fathers
• 1:18:35
  are saying like, yes, he was, but... They weren't
• 1:18:39
  really following what he was necessarily saying
• 1:18:41
  sure and you see that through a lot of movements
• 1:18:44
  like you see yeah, you see perversions of things
• 1:18:47
  where we're like, you know, you kind of go like
• 1:18:50
  man What happened to that movement like what's
• 1:18:53
  going on there? Yeah, and you go back and you're
• 1:18:55
  like, alright There's some purity and truth in
• 1:18:58
  the origin of this. Yeah, but it's also not a
• 1:19:01
  hundred percent pure And this movement has a
• 1:19:04
  little bit of sketchiness right from the beginning
• 1:19:07
  And so there's a little bit of perversion there
• 1:19:09
  right from the beginning But it's not but there
• 1:19:11
  is a lot of purity and truth in the in the beginning
• 1:19:14
  of it And so you kind of go like he had good
• 1:19:16
  intentions this person had good intentions. Yeah,
• 1:19:19
  and but Over time a couple generations go by
• 1:19:23
  it's like the idea that the yeah, like let's
• 1:19:26
  say the modern -day healing movement so the modern
• 1:19:29
  -day healing movement that comes out of like
• 1:19:30
  the 30s and the 40s it's an evolution of like
• 1:19:35
  the the like new Pentecostal movement. The new
• 1:19:39
  Pentecostal movement kind of happens around Azusa
• 1:19:42
  Street like 1906, that type of time frame. So
• 1:19:47
  then you look at like a generation later and
• 1:19:50
  you have all of these like plumbers and these
• 1:19:54
  like blue collar labor workers that then find
• 1:19:57
  themselves teaching healing and faith doctrines
• 1:20:02
  and now they're out preaching in tents. And there's
• 1:20:05
  like a purity to it a little bit. But the problem
• 1:20:08
  is is like then the next generation is where
• 1:20:12
  you get the current and modern, I mean we're
• 1:20:17
  stepping into the third generation of that now,
• 1:20:21
  but really after like the evolution, the second
• 1:20:24
  generation of the, like this is maybe too bold
• 1:20:27
  of a statement, but I feel like it's in Pentecostal
• 1:20:30
  history books. But. And this is like American
• 1:20:34
  Pentecostal history. That's only 100 years old,
• 1:20:38
  or 120 years old, something like that. But that
• 1:20:42
  first generation had this purity of revival,
• 1:20:47
  right? That was just like a rejuvenation of people
• 1:20:54
  speaking the gospel with authority. which is
• 1:20:59
  what we see in Acts. And then that second generation
• 1:21:03
  in the 30s and 40s, you get this group of 30s,
• 1:21:07
  40s, 50s, you get this group of healing ministers
• 1:21:11
  that are then extending that and they're taking
• 1:21:15
  it and there's a slight perversion there. And
• 1:21:19
  you go from things like there's authority in
• 1:21:23
  the name of Jesus to there's an authority. that
• 1:21:26
  the individual believer has. But the only authority
• 1:21:31
  that the believer has is the name of Jesus. So
• 1:21:35
  at least that's what the gospel tells us. So
• 1:21:38
  there's like slight perversion. It is true that
• 1:21:41
  the Christian has authority, but the authority
• 1:21:43
  is not theirs. It's not your authority. No, it's
• 1:21:47
  the authority you have by the power of the Holy
• 1:21:50
  Spirit working through you in the name of Jesus.
• 1:21:53
  So you have that and then the next generation
• 1:21:57
  after that is where you get the prosperity gospel.
• 1:22:00
  So the kids of the healing pastors, the healing
• 1:22:04
  movement pastors, are the preachers of the prosperity
• 1:22:07
  gospel. So you get this evolution of like, there's
• 1:22:12
  purity and truth in this origin, this fire that
• 1:22:15
  happens. And then the next generation slightly
• 1:22:18
  perverts it. and then the next generation perverts
• 1:22:20
  it even more to the point where it becomes a
• 1:22:22
  just flat out false doctrine. So you get to the
• 1:22:29
  point where you're like, oh man, there's like
• 1:22:31
  a whole generation ruined for church, ruined
• 1:22:35
  for the gospel because this perversion just kept
• 1:22:39
  going generation after generation. And so you
• 1:22:42
  look at Nicholas and you're like, well, if he
• 1:22:44
  goes back to Antioch and he's having a hard time,
• 1:22:49
  Okay, there's all these temples to all these
• 1:22:52
  gods, and there are things that I'd love to partake
• 1:22:54
  in, and the grace of God is abundant. I still
• 1:22:57
  believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that He
• 1:23:00
  rose again, but His blood covers me. Therefore,
• 1:23:06
  if the sacrificial system allowed me to have
• 1:23:11
  atonement for my sins, well, if Jesus atoned
• 1:23:13
  for my sins, then I essentially can live however
• 1:23:17
  I want. Yeah, which so that's an interesting
• 1:23:21
  idea Because it's like like trying to personalize
• 1:23:25
  it a little bit. Yeah, and that's it's that idea
• 1:23:28
  That's not the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, by
• 1:23:30
  the way. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, which will I want
• 1:23:32
  to get into that? Yeah, I guess following that
• 1:23:34
  idea though starting to get to it But that is
• 1:23:37
  not the doctrine of the Nicolaitans So I mean
• 1:23:39
  following along with that idea first before we
• 1:23:41
  jive dive into like what their doctrine was It
• 1:23:46
  is it is to personalize it is I'm surrounded
• 1:23:50
  by my friends and family that don't believe this,
• 1:23:53
  they believe that. And I don't want to alienate
• 1:23:57
  myself from them. Or these other people that
• 1:24:01
  are converting over, they have issues with maybe
• 1:24:04
  a very similar thing. So how can we engage in
• 1:24:07
  our familial relations and still follow Christ?
• 1:24:12
  You see what I mean? So it's kind of like, and
• 1:24:14
  that's how that starts to happen. I'm saying
• 1:24:18
  maybe, but. Yeah, or just desires of the flesh.
• 1:24:22
  Yes. It can be that simple, too. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:24:24
  yeah. And it's probably a combination of both
• 1:24:26
  of them. For sure. But it's like, that's the
• 1:24:28
  little, like, nick in there for that to be opened
• 1:24:31
  up. A little nick in there? You like that? I
• 1:24:34
  didn't even think of that. That's awesome. So
• 1:24:39
  it's like, yeah, it's easy to do. And I think
• 1:24:41
  that's why it's so important with and why the
• 1:24:44
  early church fathers thought it was so important
• 1:24:46
  to try to codify and like, all right, let's really
• 1:24:50
  outline like what we believe and be like, this
• 1:24:52
  is it because this keeps happening. How do we
• 1:24:55
  stop this from happening? Yeah. So you want to
• 1:24:59
  jump into it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind
• 1:25:01
  of speculation on it. And are the Nicolaitans
• 1:25:04
  followers of Nicholas from Acts six five? We
• 1:25:10
  don't really know. Right. Like the truth is we
• 1:25:12
  don't really know. And we've talked about this
• 1:25:14
  before where like you go through the book of
• 1:25:16
  Genesis and you're talking about hundreds potentially
• 1:25:19
  thousands of years. Right. That are moving between
• 1:25:22
  just those 50 chapters. Yeah. But then you look
• 1:25:25
  at the New Testament and it all kind of happens
• 1:25:27
  within a couple of generations. Right. So it's
• 1:25:30
  a much more compressed amount of time. So when
• 1:25:32
  you're looking at like 50 years probably. Yeah.
• 1:25:35
  So when we're looking at Acts 6 to John on the
• 1:25:39
  island of Patmos. Yeah. You're like, well, John
• 1:25:42
  was around in Act 6. Yeah. So not a full generation,
• 1:25:48
  but at the same time, do you remember how old
• 1:25:51
  John was when he died? Wasn't he like 90? I think
• 1:25:53
  he was in his 90s. Yeah. So you're talking about
• 1:25:55
  that. Then we're talking about Act 6. John is
• 1:25:58
  probably like 40. Yeah, so you're talking about
• 1:26:01
  another 50 years before he writes revelations
• 1:26:03
  crazy, right? Yeah, so and that's conservative
• 1:26:05
  to say like John probably is in his 40s. Let's
• 1:26:08
  say he's 50 sure Yeah, but if he dies on the
• 1:26:12
  island of Patmos, does he die on Patmos? He does
• 1:26:14
  in the Asia Minor. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure
• 1:26:17
  he dies on Patmos Yeah, I think he does too burned
• 1:26:20
  alive, right? Nothing. He died of an old age.
• 1:26:24
  I don't think he got burned alive. I think he
• 1:26:26
  just like no he does eventually get martyred
• 1:26:29
  He wouldn't have died of old age. I think if
• 1:26:31
  I remember right, I should pull it up I'm gonna
• 1:26:33
  I'm gonna pull up while you talk. Okay. Oh wait,
• 1:26:36
  I can't I Don't even know how to pull that up
• 1:26:42
  to be honest, I don't know that I have that you'd
• 1:26:44
  have to be back to the text which would be yeah
• 1:26:46
  Yeah, but I can look up John Cuz if I remember
• 1:26:53
  is row we're looking at how a martyr that we
• 1:26:56
  read it was a while ago. That's true What were
• 1:27:00
  you gonna say? Cause I thought it was him that
• 1:27:05
  said he escaped like a brutal death. But he was
• 1:27:09
  like the only martyr that escaped that. Yeah,
• 1:27:14
  tradition states that he was thrown into a cauldron
• 1:27:17
  of, that's right, he didn't die, boiling oil,
• 1:27:20
  but miraculously survived leading to his banishment.
• 1:27:23
  He eventually returned home. Yeah, and died of.
• 1:27:27
  of old age, a death some consider a bloodless
• 1:27:32
  martyrdom. Yeah, yeah. That's right, I forgot
• 1:27:35
  about that. That's right, yeah. So John... They
• 1:27:38
  tried to kill him. John the Revelator, yeah,
• 1:27:41
  he basically lived through banishment, isolation
• 1:27:45
  on an island off the Asia Minor. Yeah. But then
• 1:27:48
  also is boiled alive. And it still somehow dies
• 1:27:53
  of old age. Crazy. Well, because they tried to
• 1:27:55
  boil them, like, that didn't work. Let's banish
• 1:27:57
  them. But we see Saint Antipas, who is from Pergamum.
• 1:28:04
  He was the leader of the church in Pergamum,
• 1:28:08
  mentioned in Revelation 2. He is boiled in a...
• 1:28:15
  He's roasted, I think they say. Yeah, that's
• 1:28:18
  right. It was in a bronze bowl. Yeah, like a
• 1:28:22
  cauldron, like a huge... That's called where
• 1:28:25
  they would Do pagan practices to cast out demons.
• 1:28:29
  Hmm, which is kind of crazy Wild. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:28:33
  so and this is all kind of in this same area.
• 1:28:36
  So let's get into What is the doctrine of the
• 1:28:39
  Nicolaitans? Yeah. Yeah So, all right, let's
• 1:28:42
  let's read where the accusation lands. Okay And
• 1:28:46
  we'll just we'll just go from this we won't talk
• 1:28:48
  about Ephesus. Okay, cuz just kind of barely
• 1:28:51
  mentioned there but It gives us that he doesn't
• 1:28:54
  like it. Right. But some of the context there,
• 1:28:58
  like verse four, but I have this against you,
• 1:29:00
  that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
• 1:29:04
  Remember therefore from where you have fallen,
• 1:29:06
  repent and do the works you did at first. If
• 1:29:08
  not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand
• 1:29:11
  from its place unless you repent. Yet this you
• 1:29:14
  have, you hate the works of the Nicolaitans,
• 1:29:16
  which I also hate. So it's like, all right, Church
• 1:29:20
  of Ephesus. You're teetering. Yeah, you you have
• 1:29:24
  drifted away From the love that you had with
• 1:29:29
  me And but at least You still hate the Nicolaitans.
• 1:29:36
  That's good And to be honest, he doesn't say
• 1:29:41
  hey you hate the Nicolaitans, right? He says
• 1:29:44
  you hate the works of the Nicolaitans Yeah, don't
• 1:29:46
  hate the sinner and that's an important decision.
• 1:29:49
  Yeah I hate that phrase. I do, too. But also,
• 1:29:54
  it makes me surprised that I heard you say it.
• 1:29:55
  Like, the purity of it still kind of comes from
• 1:29:57
  this. Like, you hate the works of the Nicolaitans.
• 1:30:01
  Yeah. Right? Which I also hate. Yeah. Man, I
• 1:30:04
  hate the works of the Nicolaitans. Ugh, their
• 1:30:06
  works stink. Their works reek. Stinky. So, in
• 1:30:14
  Revelation 2, the Church of Pergamum, doctrine
• 1:30:16
  of the Nicolaitans, and the angel of the Church
• 1:30:18
  in Pergamum write, And to the angel of the church
• 1:30:23
  in Pergamum write the words of him who has the
• 1:30:26
  sharp two -edged sword I know where you dwell
• 1:30:28
  where Satan's throne is If you think that's interesting
• 1:30:32
  you didn't watch the last episode we talk about
• 1:30:35
  it. So go back there Yet you hold fast my name
• 1:30:38
  and you did not deny my faith even in the days
• 1:30:40
  of Antipas my faithful witness say Antipas who
• 1:30:44
  we talked about Who was killed among you where
• 1:30:47
  Satan dwells, but I have a few things against
• 1:30:50
  you You have some there who hold the teaching
• 1:30:54
  of Balaam who taught Balak to put a stumbling
• 1:30:59
  block before the sons of Israel so that they
• 1:31:02
  might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice
• 1:31:05
  sexual immorality. So also you have some who
• 1:31:09
  hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore
• 1:31:13
  repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war
• 1:31:16
  against them with the sword of my mouth." And
• 1:31:18
  then it goes on from there in the warning. But
• 1:31:22
  it directly associates the teaching of Balaam
• 1:31:26
  who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before
• 1:31:28
  the sons of Israel. That stumbling block was
• 1:31:31
  eating the food sacrificed to idols. Yeah. and
• 1:31:35
  practicing sexual immorality. And then it says,
• 1:31:38
  so also you have some who hold the teaching of
• 1:31:40
  the Nicolaitans. So I thought this was interesting.
• 1:31:43
  So we talked a little bit already about the relationship
• 1:31:46
  of those two things. It doesn't say, it says
• 1:31:48
  what Balaam taught Balak who taught the children
• 1:31:53
  of Israel and put a stumbling block before them
• 1:31:56
  that separated them from Yahweh. And then it
• 1:32:01
  just goes on and says and some of you who hold
• 1:32:03
  to the doctrine of Nicolaitans so the interesting
• 1:32:06
  thing there is Oh, I jumped ahead If the alright
• 1:32:15
  here we go the two names Nicolaitans and Balaam
• 1:32:19
  have very similar meanings in their respective
• 1:32:22
  languages Balaam is derived from two Hebrew words
• 1:32:27
  Bala he swallows and am, people. So he swallows
• 1:32:35
  people. This is what it means in Hebrew. Interestingly,
• 1:32:40
  according to the derivative meanings of the names,
• 1:32:43
  the two groups troubling this church, Pergamos,
• 1:32:47
  or Pergamum, were swallowers of the people, the
• 1:32:51
  Balaamites, and conquerors of the people, Nicolaitans.
• 1:32:57
  So in Hebrew. Balaamites, that word essentially
• 1:33:04
  means swallowers of the people. Nicolaitans means
• 1:33:08
  conquerors of the people. If the similar meaning
• 1:33:12
  of their names is significant and their mention
• 1:33:14
  in adjoining verses in the letter to Pergamos
• 1:33:17
  is intended to show a relationship, then it is
• 1:33:19
  thought that the licentious tendencies of the
• 1:33:23
  Nicolaitans might be understood in light of the
• 1:33:26
  doctrine of Balaam. That's interesting. Once
• 1:33:30
  again. Wow. Words mean something. Yes. So once
• 1:33:35
  again, we have this relationship between these
• 1:33:38
  two doctrines. One is described what it is. Yeah.
• 1:33:42
  The other one is not. But there were their names
• 1:33:47
  interplay. Yeah. Yeah. And because their names
• 1:33:50
  interplay and their reference together. Then
• 1:33:55
  a student of literature would say. They're associated
• 1:33:58
  they're associated. Yeah, so then you kind of
• 1:34:01
  go like all right. Well, what does all this mean?
• 1:34:03
  Like what is this doctrine? So so simply put
• 1:34:06
  like you could just say It's actually it could
• 1:34:09
  just be as simple as the doctrine of the Nicolaitans
• 1:34:14
  is Eat food sacrifice to idols and practice sexual
• 1:34:19
  immorality. Yeah, however Verse 15, so also you
• 1:34:25
  have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
• 1:34:30
  So even though they're interplaying and they're
• 1:34:31
  in relationship, when it separates it like that,
• 1:34:36
  you're kind of assuming that there's more to
• 1:34:38
  it. That the teachings of the Nicolaitans is
• 1:34:43
  different than the practices of Balaam. Because
• 1:34:47
  you have the practices of Balaam, which is eating
• 1:34:51
  the food sacrificed to idols and sexual immorality.
• 1:34:54
  And then you have the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
• 1:34:57
  So these two things are related. But they're
• 1:35:00
  two different things. And honestly, they kind
• 1:35:03
  of have to be. What do you mean? I've asked you
• 1:35:06
  that a couple times. You have, which is great.
• 1:35:09
  I'm just throwing these statements out. Well,
• 1:35:12
  it's one of those, because people would be familiar
• 1:35:14
  with the teachings of Balaam. And so if they're
• 1:35:18
  just teaching the same thing, they're like, where
• 1:35:20
  do you know what that is? And that's not good.
• 1:35:22
  But he doesn't say the teachings of Balaam. Right,
• 1:35:24
  and that's the important thing. It's like, to
• 1:35:26
  what you're saying, it's like, oh yes, it would
• 1:35:28
  have to be packaged differently or be a different
• 1:35:31
  thing, but it still leads to the same result,
• 1:35:35
  which is what he's bringing out here. That's
• 1:35:36
  fascinating, yeah. Because I think I've always
• 1:35:39
  heard people just say like, oh yeah, that's what
• 1:35:40
  it is. Right. Yeah. So even though the Bible
• 1:35:45
  doesn't spell it out directly, one of the things
• 1:35:49
  that we can look at that the early Church Fathers
• 1:35:52
  reference as well, like historical and early
• 1:35:54
  Christian writers, they talk about and they believe
• 1:35:57
  that the Nicolaitans did a couple of things.
• 1:36:00
  They believe that they, so this is getting into
• 1:36:02
  the teachings. And I think it is important to
• 1:36:04
  say that. It's like, well, are these two things
• 1:36:06
  related? How come we have this and we don't have
• 1:36:08
  that? Well, I think it's actually really simple
• 1:36:11
  to stop for a minute and go, all right, Balaam
• 1:36:17
  teaches Balak, who puts a stumbling block before
• 1:36:20
  Israel, to do these practices. The actions are
• 1:36:24
  to eat food sacrificed to idols. which is against
• 1:36:28
  the law, right? And then also practice sexual
• 1:36:33
  immorality, which is against the law. It's against
• 1:36:36
  the body. And so you have these practices, but
• 1:36:41
  then you have the teachings of the Nicolaitans.
• 1:36:45
  So there's this doctrine there. There's not a
• 1:36:48
  doctrine of Balaam. There is the urgency to do
• 1:36:55
  these practices. So do these things. It's not
• 1:37:00
  teaching you a philosophy, or it's not teaching
• 1:37:03
  you a theology, but the doctrine of the Nicolaitans
• 1:37:07
  is. It's believed by early church fathers that
• 1:37:13
  the Nicolaitans, they promoted a compromise with
• 1:37:16
  pagan practices, so that points back to Balaam,
• 1:37:20
  especially in the context of idol worship and
• 1:37:22
  sexual immorality. Where do we get that? exactly
• 1:37:26
  what we just read. Possibly advocating for Christian
• 1:37:30
  liberty in a way that justified sin, essentially
• 1:37:34
  abusing grace, which is a little bit of what
• 1:37:36
  we talked about with the misunderstanding with
• 1:37:40
  the liberties of Paul's writings, right? And
• 1:37:45
  then might have encouraged eating food sacrificed
• 1:37:47
  to idols and sexual promiscuity under the guise
• 1:37:50
  of spiritual freedom. So you kind of look at
• 1:37:53
  that and you're like, All right, well, it just
• 1:37:54
  kind of references the practices, but it does
• 1:37:57
  mention something interesting, like possibly
• 1:37:59
  advocated for Christian liberty in a way that
• 1:38:02
  justified sin. And we talked last episode about
• 1:38:08
  the context of where they are, like where Pergamum
• 1:38:12
  is. And you have temples to all of these other
• 1:38:15
  gods, particularly one right in the middle of
• 1:38:17
  town, which is all centered around healing. And
• 1:38:21
  it's all centered around healing specifically
• 1:38:24
  with snakes. Which is pretty wild. So another
• 1:38:32
  interpretation of the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans
• 1:38:35
  is moral compromise with culture. So like the
• 1:38:41
  idea of being influenced by the culture around
• 1:38:45
  you. So this is something that we can assume.
• 1:38:48
  in the reading of the text based on where they
• 1:38:51
  are and understanding what Pergamum is. So understanding
• 1:38:55
  what we discussed in the last episode, we understand
• 1:38:58
  the context of where they are. There is nothing
• 1:39:02
  but pagan worship happening all around them.
• 1:39:05
  Yeah, they're jam packed inside of pagan worship.
• 1:39:07
  In fact, what we find out is that the Red Basilica,
• 1:39:10
  where the church ends up being, was actually
• 1:39:14
  built to Egyptian gods. And then it was converted
• 1:39:20
  into a church in the second century. So you have
• 1:39:24
  this church in the middle of a city of just almost
• 1:39:28
  exclusively temples to worship the other gods.
• 1:39:31
  So it's easy to blend that, especially if you're
• 1:39:34
  from Pergamum. And then you're like Nicholas,
• 1:39:39
  who may or may not be associated with the Nicolaitans,
• 1:39:42
  who is converted, but from Antioch. Right? Yeah.
• 1:39:48
  Yeah. Yeah. So then then you have false teachings
• 1:39:52
  that mix Christianity with practices that lead
• 1:39:55
  people away from a holy fire or abusing grace
• 1:39:59
  to excuse sin. So it's actually it's actually
• 1:40:04
  this kind of simple idea that the doctrine of
• 1:40:08
  the Nicolaitans and what what we can see in context.
• 1:40:13
  is very similar to what we talked about just
• 1:40:16
  a little bit earlier, which would be something
• 1:40:19
  to the extent of hyper -grace. Now, hyper -grace
• 1:40:25
  in a modern context, I think is more associated
• 1:40:29
  in my mind to seeker -friendly movements, but
• 1:40:34
  then also hyper -Pentecostalism. So like you
• 1:40:38
  having... communities that are teaching the idea
• 1:40:45
  that in this over -emotional state, there are
• 1:40:50
  gray areas, or there are things that you can
• 1:40:53
  partake in, but because of the blood of Jesus,
• 1:40:57
  it covers all of our sins, right? But the interesting
• 1:41:02
  thing to me is the way I always heard the doctrine
• 1:41:07
  of the Nicolaitans associated was, directly.
• 1:41:12
  And this is, this was always so weird to me,
• 1:41:14
  but I always heard that doctrines, the doctrine
• 1:41:17
  of the Nicolaitans specifically, and like, let
• 1:41:22
  me just say it like this. So this is, this is
• 1:41:26
  part of the reason why I was interested in this
• 1:41:27
  question is because I was always told that the
• 1:41:31
  doctrine of the Nicolaitans is one of the core
• 1:41:35
  tenants of the Southern Baptist convention, which
• 1:41:39
  is kind of a wild wild claim. Yeah. So that's,
• 1:41:44
  that's what I was always told. That's a claim.
• 1:41:47
  But I didn't understand like how that breaks
• 1:41:49
  down. And you kind of go like, all right, what
• 1:41:51
  is like, what's one of the core, what is one
• 1:41:55
  of the core doctrines and like kind of defining
• 1:41:57
  doctrines of the Southern Baptist Convention,
• 1:42:00
  which would basically just be like most of the
• 1:42:03
  Southern Baptist churches in America are the
• 1:42:05
  SBC. And that doctrine is I want to say it and
• 1:42:15
  it's proper, but like the phrase used is once
• 1:42:19
  saved, always saved. Yes. Yeah. What is it? What's
• 1:42:23
  the... I don't actually know what the... It's...
• 1:42:26
  I have it. Eternal security. There you go. Thank
• 1:42:28
  you. Eternal security. Thanking previous Steven
• 1:42:32
  for writing that down. So here's the thing. Here's
• 1:42:35
  the thing. I was always... I was always directly
• 1:42:39
  associated with if you are, and I'll just say
• 1:42:43
  it like this, because this is not something that
• 1:42:45
  I believe. So I will just say that straight out.
• 1:42:50
  It was always represented to me that the doctrine
• 1:42:53
  of the Nicolaitans is the doctrine of the Baptist
• 1:42:57
  Church, which the Lord hates. So what was presented
• 1:43:02
  to me was that the Lord hates the doctrine of
• 1:43:06
  the Baptist Church. Which is... So many things?
• 1:43:12
  Let's say dangerous. Okay. I wouldn't have gone
• 1:43:15
  there, but I'm happy to go there with you. And
• 1:43:19
  I would agree. I would say it is dangerous because
• 1:43:23
  of a couple of things. There's a lot of reasons
• 1:43:29
  I said that word. Because here's the thing. So
• 1:43:34
  we go, what is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans?
• 1:43:37
  I think it's teachings and practices. So it's
• 1:43:41
  teachings that lead or promote practices. And
• 1:43:44
  it's actually pretty simple, to be completely
• 1:43:46
  honest, it's actually pretty simple just laid
• 1:43:48
  out right there in Revelation to Ephesians and
• 1:43:52
  to Pergamum. And then knowing about Pergamum
• 1:43:55
  and knowing about the environment that is Pergamum,
• 1:43:59
  which is you... You're in trances with snakes
• 1:44:06
  over you and getting revelations of what's wrong
• 1:44:09
  with your body so that when you wake up you can
• 1:44:12
  tell the doctors and they'll help heal you. It's
• 1:44:14
  crazy. And you're like, wait, so there were snakes
• 1:44:16
  giving you revelations in coma -induced, like,
• 1:44:22
  rituals? Yeah. Okay. And you're receiving knowledge
• 1:44:25
  in these rituals. I mean... Stuff writes itself.
• 1:44:31
  Like, I don't know, yeah. We're talking about
• 1:44:34
  not just pagan worship, but also like demonic
• 1:44:38
  and going into knowledge of the watchers, going
• 1:44:43
  into knowledge of sons of God, fallen sons of
• 1:44:47
  God, like, you know, going into all of that.
• 1:44:51
  That's essentially what's happening in this.
• 1:44:52
  And then we talked about a little bit too, like
• 1:44:55
  in some of the other temples you have like Dionysus,
• 1:44:58
  the temple to Dionysus. where everybody just
• 1:45:01
  gets as drunk as possible and then participates
• 1:45:05
  in Morality adult acts of immorality And it even
• 1:45:11
  discusses the fact that it would escalate to
• 1:45:14
  the point of people being killed Yeah in the
• 1:45:17
  process of this sacrificial like celebration
• 1:45:22
  that's happening. All these things are happening
• 1:45:24
  all at once in this place. And so what we get
• 1:45:27
  is this teaching of the Nicolaitans, which is
• 1:45:30
  essentially that we understand that the Nicolaitans
• 1:45:34
  were, and this is kind of like early church fathers
• 1:45:37
  kind of talk about this, but the Nicolaitans
• 1:45:39
  believed that Jesus was the son of God, that
• 1:45:42
  he died on the cross, that he rose again on the
• 1:45:44
  third day. They believed the Christian doctrine.
• 1:45:47
  However, they believe that his grace would cover
• 1:45:50
  them the same way that the sacrificial system
• 1:45:53
  covers the sins of the Israelites meaning They
• 1:45:58
  had laws to follow They didn't follow all the
• 1:46:02
  laws Yeah, so yeah, they would have a day of
• 1:46:05
  atonement and all their sins would be put on
• 1:46:07
  a scapegoat They'd throw it off a cliff or send
• 1:46:09
  it into the wilderness, right? And that would
• 1:46:12
  take away the sins of the Israelites then Jesus
• 1:46:16
  comes And now that doesn't have to happen on
• 1:46:19
  the day of atonement. It now has happened once
• 1:46:22
  and for all. But the doctrine of the Nicolaitans
• 1:46:27
  was the fact that even if you participated in
• 1:46:32
  fleshly desires, that God's grace still covered
• 1:46:35
  you if you believed that Jesus was the son of
• 1:46:38
  God. So you go, well, what is the teachings of
• 1:46:40
  the Nicolaitans? It's that. It's that. If you
• 1:46:44
  believe that Jesus is Lord and died on the cross
• 1:46:47
  and rose again on the third day Then his blood
• 1:46:51
  and his grace covers you No matter how you live.
• 1:46:56
  Yeah, so then so then I Go from there and we
• 1:47:01
  go. Alright, that's the teaching which is then
• 1:47:05
  coupled with the practices of Balaam and you
• 1:47:10
  go. Okay, the teaching is you can do the practices
• 1:47:13
  of Balaam and still receive salvation. So these
• 1:47:19
  are these two things coupled. That is an important
• 1:47:23
  pairing though. And here's why it's an important
• 1:47:25
  pairing, because of this personal example that
• 1:47:27
  I have. And the personal example that I have
• 1:47:29
  is because of a core Baptist, specifically Southern
• 1:47:35
  Baptist doctrine, that Baptist, are teaching
• 1:47:41
  the doctrine of the Nicolaitans by teaching eternal
• 1:47:44
  security. Well, you go, all right, well, what
• 1:47:47
  is the doctrine of eternal security, right? And
• 1:47:50
  a lot of people I've heard also, people saying,
• 1:47:53
  well, originally it was once you received salvation,
• 1:48:01
  then you were saved no matter what, you were
• 1:48:05
  good, right? The same way that the Catholics
• 1:48:11
  because of the teachings of Augustine, right?
• 1:48:16
  Original sin. So like you have that and again,
• 1:48:19
  another distortion of something that kind of
• 1:48:22
  makes, like there's purity in it, right? There's
• 1:48:25
  also great fear from Augustine. So there's something
• 1:48:30
  not great in it as well. But you have this idea
• 1:48:35
  where it's like, okay, so originally that's,
• 1:48:38
  Like, and this is how I've heard it described
• 1:48:40
  to me as well, is like originally the Baptist
• 1:48:45
  believed that once you were saved there was nothing
• 1:48:49
  that you could do, right? There's nothing that
• 1:48:51
  you could do that would separate you from the
• 1:48:52
  love of God. Okay. And then they would say, but
• 1:48:56
  if you weren't going to church anymore and you
• 1:49:01
  were living a life that did not bear fruit of
• 1:49:05
  the gospel, then you were never saved to begin
• 1:49:07
  with. Yeah. And you go like, yeah. All right.
• 1:49:11
  I mean, that feels like pretty sound logic. Right.
• 1:49:15
  And maybe it is true. Maybe it's not. The problem
• 1:49:20
  is, is there was an issue with that because it
• 1:49:23
  was like, well, now you're saying you can't walk
• 1:49:25
  away from belief. It means that you never had
• 1:49:29
  it to begin with. Right. Right. And then that
• 1:49:34
  was like kind of a caveat. So it was like, no,
• 1:49:37
  they've added this caveat that you never had
• 1:49:41
  it to begin with. So if you do walk away, their
• 1:49:46
  caveat is, well, they were never saved in the
• 1:49:48
  first place. And you kind of go like, we can't
• 1:49:53
  judge that. I mean, I don't know the extent of
• 1:49:57
  God's grace. However, what I do know is I can
• 1:50:01
  read here where the SBC, President in 2020 wrote,
• 1:50:12
  eternal security is a glorious and comforting
• 1:50:15
  truth. But notice what Paul says in Romans 11
• 1:50:18
  20. You will be kept if you avoid the unbelief
• 1:50:24
  that overcame Israel and stand by faith. If we
• 1:50:30
  have two seemingly contradictory truths, one
• 1:50:33
  on the one hand, The Bible says that once God
• 1:50:36
  saves you, you'll always be saved. John 10, Romans
• 1:50:40
  8. On the other, it says that only if you endure
• 1:50:43
  to the end will you be saved. Hebrews 3, 12 through
• 1:50:46
  14. You have to put the two together. One of
• 1:50:49
  the essential marks of truly saving faith is
• 1:50:52
  that it endures to the end. The real doctrine
• 1:50:55
  of eternal security reads like this. Not only
• 1:50:58
  once saved, always saved, but also once saved,
• 1:51:02
  forever following. So the doctrine of the SPC
• 1:51:07
  is stating essentially once saved forever following
• 1:51:13
  Yeah, yeah, so if you've been saved you then
• 1:51:17
  will live a life of a follower of Christ correct,
• 1:51:21
  right and then When you do that, you're kept
• 1:51:24
  by him. Yeah, so I can get behind that. Yeah
• 1:51:30
  Here's the thing though and this is why This
• 1:51:34
  is why I believe based off of what was expressed
• 1:51:40
  to me and what I witnessed taught to me was that
• 1:51:44
  the reason why the eternal salvation or the once
• 1:51:49
  saved always saved doctrine was the doctrine
• 1:51:51
  of the Nicolaitans was because if you believed,
• 1:51:55
  assumption, if you believe that once you are
• 1:51:59
  saved, there's nothing that you can do to lose
• 1:52:02
  your salvation. then you will live however you
• 1:52:06
  want. Yeah. Yeah. That's a massive conclusion.
• 1:52:11
  Absolutely. That's saying if I give you a car,
• 1:52:14
  I believe that you'll destroy it. If you don't
• 1:52:18
  have to work, if you don't have to pay the bills
• 1:52:22
  on that car, then obviously you're going to destroy
• 1:52:25
  it. What are you talking about? Maybe you will,
• 1:52:31
  person who's telling me this. Like maybe in your
• 1:52:35
  heart, you can't believe that doctrine. And I'm
• 1:52:38
  not saying it's true or not true. I'm not saying
• 1:52:40
  I believe it or don't believe it, like the doctrine
• 1:52:43
  of eternal security. What I'm saying is the Bible
• 1:52:47
  clearly lays out the idea that your fruit will
• 1:52:52
  expose your heart. And if your heart is a dwelling
• 1:52:57
  place for the Holy Spirit, your body is a temple
• 1:53:01
  to the Lord, then your fruit will be good fruit
• 1:53:05
  that show that you have been saved and are enduring
• 1:53:10
  to the end. However, if in your heart, you feel
• 1:53:15
  like you can't believe a doctrine that would
• 1:53:18
  say once you are saved, there's nothing that
• 1:53:20
  can be taken away from you. Therefore, if I believe
• 1:53:23
  that, I will then turn and I will just raise
• 1:53:27
  hell. And I'm good to go. that's an issue with
• 1:53:31
  your heart, not an issue with the doctrine. And
• 1:53:34
  that issue with your heart is completely different
• 1:53:38
  because in order for the doctrine of eternal
• 1:53:42
  security to be the doctrine of the Nicolaitans,
• 1:53:46
  it also has to be taught that you can and should
• 1:53:52
  practice sexual immorality, that you could and
• 1:53:56
  can and should practice Eating food sacrifice
• 1:54:01
  to idols. Yeah, which obviously you've done that
• 1:54:09
  If you watch the opposite lot the lapisode the
• 1:54:18
  lab I did what you do If you watch the last episode
• 1:54:23
  you'll understand that I think it was the last
• 1:54:24
  one right? Yeah Paul ate some mints that were
• 1:54:28
  sacrificed to Buddha Man, I'll never recover.
• 1:54:33
  It's okay. You probably won't do it again, and
• 1:54:38
  you were convicted by it, so. Yeah, it's not
• 1:54:40
  gonna happen again. That's the fruit of your
• 1:54:41
  heart, man. Hey. But that's what I'm saying.
• 1:54:44
  But yeah, what? Sorry, finish your thought. Well,
• 1:54:47
  I'm just, I have an issue, personally, with anybody.
• 1:54:54
  First of all, I have a massive issue, firstly,
• 1:54:58
  with... the gospel of Jesus being misrepresented
• 1:55:00
  and not taught correctly. Paul even says, if
• 1:55:05
  anybody comes to you teaching a different gospel,
• 1:55:08
  men or angels do not believe them. Even if I,
• 1:55:14
  Paul, come back to you and tell you a different
• 1:55:17
  gospel, don't believe me. He says that. And so
• 1:55:21
  I have an issue with that. The second underneath
• 1:55:26
  that, that I have an issue with, is calling out
• 1:55:29
  people in a way that's alienating and saying
• 1:55:34
  that whole denominations are aligned with a teaching
• 1:55:41
  that clearly in Revelation 2 the Lord says specifically
• 1:55:47
  twice that he hates. And just calling out an
• 1:55:52
  entire denomination. without understanding that
• 1:55:58
  you're making a massive assumption on everybody
• 1:56:03
  that what they are teaching is twofold. It's
• 1:56:09
  not one thing. It has to be twofold. Otherwise,
• 1:56:13
  it's not what he's saying. So even though in
• 1:56:18
  Ephesus he says there are some, and you also
• 1:56:22
  hate the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, right?
• 1:56:25
  He doesn't reference anybody. He says you hate
• 1:56:28
  the doctrine of the Nicolaitans Great. What's
• 1:56:30
  the doctrine of Nicolaitans? The doctrine of
• 1:56:32
  Nicolaitans is abundant grace. No matter what
• 1:56:34
  you do Yeah, right. Yeah, and so we equate that
• 1:56:38
  to all right. Well that is eternal salvation
• 1:56:41
  Problem is is the teaching has to also be linked
• 1:56:45
  with the practices. Yeah, so Believing that that
• 1:56:53
  If you are saved, there's nothing that can separate
• 1:56:56
  you. Doesn't also mean that you will and can
• 1:57:02
  do whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah. So if even
• 1:57:06
  if you say that, like the Lord's grace covers
• 1:57:09
  me. And I think even to the extent of doing some
• 1:57:15
  things that I don't want to do. Yeah. I think
• 1:57:18
  you're more like David in the Old Testament.
• 1:57:21
  Where you have a heart that is after the Lord.
• 1:57:25
  Yeah, where yeah, you're gonna sin Yeah, you're
• 1:57:28
  gonna make mistakes, but you're gonna turn and
• 1:57:30
  repent quickly Yes, the doctrine of the Nicolaitans
• 1:57:32
  says there's no need to repent. Yeah, you're
• 1:57:35
  good The the doctrine of eternal security does
• 1:57:39
  not say there's no need to repent No one has
• 1:57:43
  ever said that now if someone misrepresented
• 1:57:45
  a doctrine to you that made you alienate an entire
• 1:57:48
  denomination I can't help that But maybe we need
• 1:57:52
  to stop doing that. Maybe we need to stop misrepresenting
• 1:57:56
  that idea and that ideal. Because even the people
• 1:58:02
  that are leading that denomination are saying,
• 1:58:06
  wait, hang on. That's not what this means. It
• 1:58:10
  means once saved, always kept, and forever following.
• 1:58:18
  That's what it means. That's the heart of the
• 1:58:21
  doctrine, not the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
• 1:58:25
  Now the doctrine of the Nicolaitans would have
• 1:58:27
  been, once saved, always saved, therefore do
• 1:58:31
  these practices and you do not need to repent.
• 1:58:36
  So the doctrine of the Nicolaitans is more about
• 1:58:39
  no need for repentance than once you're saved,
• 1:58:44
  grace covers it all, right? Yeah, no, I agree.
• 1:58:49
  And I think, I guess taking from that, the next
• 1:58:54
  spot for me where my brain is going with this
• 1:58:57
  is, okay, so what is the warning actually? Yeah.
• 1:59:03
  You know what I mean? So it's like, okay, so
• 1:59:04
  we know it's not against this one denomination.
• 1:59:06
  Right, right. That didn't exist at the time.
• 1:59:09
  Sure, yeah. So it's like, okay, so what is he
• 1:59:11
  actually? But I can understand like in the spirit
• 1:59:12
  of, these are things we need to look out for.
• 1:59:14
  Yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? I totally
• 1:59:16
  agree. Yeah, because I think we do need to look
• 1:59:17
  out for that. Yeah. And we really look out for
• 1:59:19
  those people. Yeah, I mean, because those things
• 1:59:22
  do exist. And I think when we see those and it's
• 1:59:25
  like, OK, this is what this is. Right. Yeah,
• 1:59:28
  let's call that out. Yeah. And an example of
• 1:59:32
  that, like we brought up earlier, I think, is
• 1:59:33
  that hyper grace, which is kind of in the vein
• 1:59:35
  of what we're saying here. And it's the idea.
• 1:59:40
  And again, it's that perversion of something
• 1:59:42
  that is pure and good. And I think in some ways,
• 1:59:45
  it's when we try to simplify truth, which is
• 1:59:49
  complicated. We try to simplify it and it becomes
• 1:59:52
  heresy, it becomes a lie. It becomes a misrepresentation,
• 1:59:56
  which is funny because it's like, yeah, for someone
• 1:59:58
  to say, oh, eternal security, that is a heresy.
• 2:00:05
  But you had to simplify it to a point where it's
• 2:00:07
  not even what it's teaching anymore. And it's
• 2:00:11
  eliminating any conversation. And potentially,
• 2:00:14
  you're throwing the baby out with the bath water.
• 2:00:16
  Yeah, absolutely. the same idea as, I hate church.
• 2:00:21
  Church is full of terrible people. No, one guy
• 2:00:25
  did something, and that's terrible that that
• 2:00:28
  guy did something. It's terrible that somebody
• 2:00:31
  taught you the Doctor of the Nicolaitans and
• 2:00:34
  called it eternal security. Which is probably
• 2:00:38
  what happened. And then that person goes around
• 2:00:41
  teaching it as that. But it's not that. It's
• 2:00:45
  just not. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then, taking
• 2:00:50
  that a step back, it's, so what did they do?
• 2:00:55
  Well, they took something that was good and that
• 2:00:59
  was right. And it's that idea of liberty under
• 2:01:04
  grace. Yeah. But what they did was they divided
• 2:01:09
  God. Yeah. And they removed justice and discipline.
• 2:01:13
  Yeah. And it's like, okay, that's the problem.
• 2:01:16
  Right. The problem is you divided the attribute
• 2:01:18
  of who God is. You compartmentalized him and
• 2:01:21
  said, I like this part of him. I don't like that
• 2:01:23
  part. Right. So let's just focus on this part
• 2:01:26
  because this one allows me to do what I want
• 2:01:27
  to do. Yeah. It's like, yeah, that's not God.
• 2:01:30
  Yeah. It actually reminds me and I'm going to
• 2:01:33
  I wrote it down because I didn't want to misquote
• 2:01:35
  it. But A .W. Tozer. uh actually funny talking
• 2:01:40
  about albums this is actually one of the books
• 2:01:41
  it's a small book it's called the knowledge of
• 2:01:43
  the holy that i actually do read like once a
• 2:01:46
  year yeah usually it's a really easy read but
• 2:01:48
  i love his very like complicated philosophical
• 2:01:52
  questioning and approach to what are the attributes
• 2:01:56
  of god yeah let me say this before you yeah please
• 2:01:59
  because that feels like a good place to land
• 2:02:01
  i would want to say Because for me, this type
• 2:02:05
  of thing was a calling out of a full denomination.
• 2:02:09
  One of the things that I feel like is important
• 2:02:12
  to say is it's scary when an individual or when
• 2:02:15
  any churches or when any church leaders don't
• 2:02:20
  have, not an open hand, I think that's dangerous,
• 2:02:25
  but a humble heart to say, hey, Let me not call
• 2:02:31
  out an entire group of people. Let me not call
• 2:02:34
  out and say, and even if you're not doing it
• 2:02:37
  in front of them, but doing it to others and
• 2:02:39
  alienating people and just saying that anybody,
• 2:02:41
  like to the point where anybody that's Baptist
• 2:02:44
  or anybody that's Presbyterian or anybody that
• 2:02:46
  is something that just, they completely have
• 2:02:50
  theology completely incorrect. I mean, there's
• 2:02:55
  just no humility in that and it's a plank in
• 2:02:59
  your eye. And the thing is, it doesn't mean that
• 2:03:02
  what you're saying is not true. It's just the
• 2:03:04
  wrong place to do it. And it's also assuming
• 2:03:08
  that you're getting everything right. And that
• 2:03:12
  is hubris. And that will eventually catch up.
• 2:03:19
  And you will be humbled in some way or another.
• 2:03:23
  And if leaders would be humble in their approach,
• 2:03:29
  and warn against things versus alienating a whole
• 2:03:33
  group of people, then you're not teaching a generation
• 2:03:37
  to hate people who love Jesus. It would be one
• 2:03:42
  thing to say, hey, eternal security, let's be
• 2:03:46
  careful that it doesn't turn into this. Right.
• 2:03:49
  Let's just put that warning out. Yeah. Be careful
• 2:03:51
  because it could turn into that. Or if you're
• 2:03:53
  not in a Baptist church and you go, hey, if you
• 2:03:55
  grew up in a Southern Baptist Church, this was
• 2:03:58
  a doctrine. You may have seen this misrepresented.
• 2:04:02
  And be sure that this is something that you understand.
• 2:04:07
  You know what I mean? You correct something or
• 2:04:09
  you bring something to light, right? And then
• 2:04:12
  you're quick to say, you're quick to say, we
• 2:04:15
  don't get everything right. We strive to, but
• 2:04:21
  we're not saying we get everything right. What
• 2:04:23
  we're saying is, here's something that could
• 2:04:27
  have been misrepresented in a theology or a doctrine,
• 2:04:30
  and that person will be held accountable for
• 2:04:32
  that. If they had no knowledge of it, I'm sure
• 2:04:35
  there's grace there, right? But if they have
• 2:04:37
  knowledge of it, then they'll have judgment for
• 2:04:40
  that. As a teacher, they'll be held to a higher
• 2:04:42
  standard at judgment day. And the one who just
• 2:04:47
  doesn't humbly approach that, yeah, that's...
• 2:04:54
  your burden gets heavier. It doesn't have to
• 2:04:57
  be. So that's kind of what I would say. I love
• 2:05:05
  zeal, but the Maccabees were zealous. Jesus was
• 2:05:12
  zealous, and they were in completely different
• 2:05:14
  ways. So you go, all right, which one are we
• 2:05:18
  supposed to... Well, the Maccabees aren't in
• 2:05:20
  the canon anymore. So but jesus he's in the whole
• 2:05:26
  thing. It's kind of a big deal So there's a lot
• 2:05:29
  to be said about a lot of that does speak to
• 2:05:31
  your your heart and your motivation as well Yeah,
• 2:05:34
  and it's like you're saying your zeal becomes
• 2:05:36
  the fruit Yeah, um, but only if it's planted
• 2:05:38
  in the right spite the right space. Yeah Yeah,
• 2:05:41
  I just think it's dangerous to alienate a whole
• 2:05:43
  group of people. Absolutely I mean we pick on
• 2:05:46
  the catholics a lot and that's so i'll bring
• 2:05:48
  them up They're one where it's like there are
• 2:05:50
  a lot of protestants that I've that I've talked
• 2:05:52
  to that say like, oh yeah, none of them are saved.
• 2:05:55
  And it's like, can you say that? I don't think
• 2:05:57
  you can say that. No, and we haven't said that.
• 2:05:59
  No, I don't believe that. Yeah. And it's because
• 2:06:02
  like, oh, there's a few things we disagree on.
• 2:06:04
  And there's some things that I'll even outright
• 2:06:06
  say I think are dangerous that the Catholic Church
• 2:06:07
  teaches. Yeah. But it doesn't mean you're not
• 2:06:10
  saved. No. And it's like, that's a bold claim
• 2:06:13
  to make with no basis for it. Well, in this whole
• 2:06:16
  this whole episode, we've been talking about
• 2:06:18
  something that a part of the Protestant Church
• 2:06:20
  has gotten wrong. Yeah. So like, I mean, we're
• 2:06:23
  just calling out ourselves. Right, absolutely.
• 2:06:26
  Absolutely we are. And I think that's important
• 2:06:29
  because it's like, okay, let's, it's these checks
• 2:06:31
  and balances. And it's like, yeah, let's check
• 2:06:36
  each other. Let's make sure that we're in alignment.
• 2:06:39
  And there are things we will disagree on. Absolutely.
• 2:06:42
  That's why there's different denominations. But
• 2:06:46
  are they core to a false gospel? Like, do they
• 2:06:50
  lead to a false gospel? That's the part where
• 2:06:53
  we're like, okay, let's look into that. I mean,
• 2:06:55
  you'll see the fruit of it. Absolutely. That
• 2:06:57
  was always the funny thing to me is like, for
• 2:06:59
  me growing up, the nicest Christians were always
• 2:07:04
  Baptist. Always. They were always so nice. The
• 2:07:10
  meanest Christians were Pentecostal. They were.
• 2:07:18
  if I was like, if I wanted to go to a Bible study
• 2:07:21
  and really learn or be in a community and just
• 2:07:25
  really, people genuinely care and look you in
• 2:07:29
  the face to the point where you're like, are
• 2:07:31
  you being genuinely serious? Do you really care
• 2:07:35
  about me? Are you really square looking me in
• 2:07:37
  the face and you actually care about this? The
• 2:07:40
  Baptist got it right. The Pentecostals pray well.
• 2:07:48
  Baptist would say that it's like Everybody has
• 2:07:51
  their strength and their personalities and there
• 2:07:53
  and the thing is is like we're way stronger when
• 2:07:55
  we tie in together Which is it's funny. I was
• 2:07:58
  debating whether I was gonna say this or not
• 2:08:00
  because it's kind of making fun of Pentecostals
• 2:08:02
  a little bit, but That's what we're here now.
• 2:08:05
  They've been making fun of someone else. Yeah,
• 2:08:07
  but it's It's funny how the fingers are pointed
• 2:08:14
  and say oh the eternal security people those
• 2:08:17
  are the ones that are the Nicolaitans, and their
• 2:08:21
  doctrine's hated by Jesus. But then you look
• 2:08:23
  at the life, like you're saying, of a lot of
• 2:08:25
  them, not everyone, but a lot of them, and it's
• 2:08:28
  like, oh, they're actually the most disciplined
• 2:08:29
  people I've ever met. And it's like, well, that's
• 2:08:32
  the opposite of what you're saying that they're
• 2:08:34
  doing. Yeah. Like in some ways, and this is never
• 2:08:43
  really fully associated, but in some ways, a
• 2:08:46
  Calvinist a Calvinist theology would be closer
• 2:08:50
  to a doctrine of the Nicolaitans. The problem
• 2:08:57
  is, again, the same thing. It's like Calvinists
• 2:09:01
  are not teaching the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
• 2:09:04
  Well, that's the interesting thing because I
• 2:09:06
  feel like eternal security and Calvinism are
• 2:09:09
  kind of hand in hand. Well, determinism and eternal
• 2:09:13
  security. Yeah, are different. They are different.
• 2:09:16
  Yeah, but I feel like there's a there. There's
• 2:09:18
  some hand -holding there a little bit Yeah, like
• 2:09:21
  at least in the eternal security you you like
• 2:09:24
  the different I shouldn't say at least in eternal
• 2:09:27
  security You're making a decision true in Determinism
• 2:09:32
  or in Calvinist predestination the decision you
• 2:09:36
  make was made for you. Yeah and and to be completely
• 2:09:40
  honest the Lord is the judge. So at the end of
• 2:09:46
  the day, the goal is to love Jesus. And if you're
• 2:09:48
  doing that, then it's a win. And to be honest,
• 2:09:51
  most people that are in church, that's not the
• 2:09:55
  type of teaching that they need detail of. The
• 2:10:00
  type of discipleship, like when Jesus says, go
• 2:10:03
  and make disciples, the next thing he says is,
• 2:10:06
  baptizing them in the name of the Father and
• 2:10:08
  the Son of the Holy Spirit. And so that's how
• 2:10:12
  disciples are made. And then teach them the word.
• 2:10:18
  So that's the whole thing. It's like, first make
• 2:10:21
  disciples. How do you make disciples? You baptize
• 2:10:23
  them in the name of the Father and the Son and
• 2:10:24
  the Holy Spirit. Done. Beginning. Now it's like
• 2:10:28
  marriage. It's like marriage is the starting
• 2:10:31
  point. Now you got to do it. Now you have to
• 2:10:34
  do it. Right. So it's like, all right, become
• 2:10:37
  a disciple. How do you do that? You get baptized
• 2:10:41
  in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy
• 2:10:43
  Spirit. You believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior,
• 2:10:46
  that He died on the cross, that He rose again
• 2:10:47
  on the third day, that He is soon returning,
• 2:10:50
  that He was born of a virgin. These are all things
• 2:10:52
  that are doctrines of the Church that are important
• 2:10:55
  to the Gospel. You believe all of these things,
• 2:10:58
  and then what do you do? You devote yourself
• 2:11:00
  to the teachings of the Word. So that's the process
• 2:11:04
  of a disciple. That's what a disciple does is
• 2:11:07
  study the word and pray and do the works of the
• 2:11:10
  ministry. But what a disciple is, is one who
• 2:11:14
  is baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and
• 2:11:16
  the Holy Spirit. So that's the thing is like
• 2:11:18
  you have that laid out clearly by Jesus. And
• 2:11:22
  so that's the thing is like, that's what most
• 2:11:24
  people in church need. Don't need to be told
• 2:11:27
  that. this other denomination down the street
• 2:11:30
  is hated by God. What they teach is hated by
• 2:11:33
  God. Because then you see them in the grocery
• 2:11:36
  store and you're just judging those people. But
• 2:11:39
  then they walk up and they're like, hey brother,
• 2:11:41
  how you doing? And you're like, why is that person
• 2:11:44
  so full of joy and I'm not? Maybe because I hate
• 2:11:47
  them because I was told the Lord hates them.
• 2:11:50
  How about love them? How about love? How about
• 2:11:56
  love? Because the thing because I I even said
• 2:12:01
  this I was even this up Yeah, it doesn't say
• 2:12:04
  hate the Nicolaitans. Yeah, don't hate hate their
• 2:12:07
  teachings Yeah, so don't hate the Baptist don't
• 2:12:10
  hate the Calvinist. Don't hate the Pentecostals.
• 2:12:13
  Don't hate the whoever the Catholics don't hate
• 2:12:16
  the Protestants don't hate anybody, hate the
• 2:12:18
  teachings that are preaching another Jesus. And
• 2:12:22
  then again, that's the thing that we need to
• 2:12:24
  be careful of is because when we teach, hey,
• 2:12:28
  hate them because Jesus hated them. It's like,
• 2:12:30
  but is that what he said? Because that's actually
• 2:12:32
  against what he taught. Right. Yeah. It's like,
• 2:12:36
  well, hold on. And I think that's one of the
• 2:12:38
  big things that we often fall into. especially
• 2:12:43
  as long -term Christians, or people that grew
• 2:12:46
  up in the church, is we forget that people are
• 2:12:49
  a mess, and we forget that Jesus saved us when
• 2:12:52
  we were a mess, and He saves other people when
• 2:12:55
  they're still a mess. And it's like, we don't
• 2:12:58
  just become good right away, and that's never
• 2:13:01
  the expectation. When you're a disciple, when
• 2:13:03
  you've made a disciple, you've been baptized
• 2:13:06
  in the name of the Father and the Son and the
• 2:13:08
  Holy Spirit, you're not perfect. Right. starting
• 2:13:12
  the process of becoming perfect. Ultimately,
• 2:13:16
  you can't reach that goal until you go to be
• 2:13:21
  with the Lord or He returns and then makes everything
• 2:13:26
  right. He does it. He finishes the work. He doesn't
• 2:13:31
  do all the work. We have work to do. But He asks
• 2:13:34
  us to practice. But we don't finish our work.
• 2:13:37
  He finishes it. Right. We persevere to the end
• 2:13:40
  when he finishes. Yeah. So we don't even get
• 2:13:43
  to cross the finish line on our own. No. It's
• 2:13:47
  true. You know what I mean? He's the finisher.
• 2:13:50
  Yeah. The Bible says he's the author and the
• 2:13:52
  finisher of our faith. Yeah. So you got to run
• 2:13:56
  from start to finish, but he started it and he's
• 2:13:58
  going to end it. Yeah, because we can't do it
• 2:14:00
  on our own. That's why we need him. Yeah. But
• 2:14:03
  I think that's the important thing right there.
• 2:14:05
  And that's the distinction between the teaching
• 2:14:08
  of the Nicolaitans to what the gospel teaches.
• 2:14:11
  And it's not like, hey, he's gonna finish it,
• 2:14:14
  so just do whatever you want until he gets back
• 2:14:15
  to finish it. It's like, no, no, no, no. He says
• 2:14:18
  you have to run, in Paul's words, you have to
• 2:14:20
  run the race with endurance. He's saying that,
• 2:14:24
  yeah, he's gonna finish it. He's gonna do it
• 2:14:26
  because ultimately he's the only one that can
• 2:14:28
  do it. But in the meantime, you're supposed to
• 2:14:31
  work toward that. And just to drive this home,
• 2:14:34
  the doctrine of the Nicolaitans is not just you
• 2:14:36
  can do whatever you want. It's you should do
• 2:14:42
  these practices. So that's the difference. And
• 2:14:47
  that's a whole different thing than the Lord's
• 2:14:52
  grace will cover you when you sin. That's different
• 2:14:55
  than you should participate in active sin Mm
• 2:14:59
  -hmm because the Lord's Grace covers you. Yeah,
• 2:15:02
  that's the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, right?
• 2:15:05
  Yeah, which is different. Yes Yeah, so I'll read
• 2:15:11
  this To kind of like wrap this up a little bit
• 2:15:14
  because we're talking about just the compartmentalization
• 2:15:17
  Oh, yeah. Because I think that, again, that's
• 2:15:19
  what we end up doing ourselves, even when we're
• 2:15:21
  trying to call other people out sometimes. Right.
• 2:15:23
  And it's like, okay, we can't do that. Yeah.
• 2:15:26
  So, A .W. Tozer, he says, all of God does not...
• 2:15:31
  Sorry, let me start that over. Let me not just
• 2:15:35
  quote him while I'm reading it. Take two. Take
• 2:15:36
  two. And all of God does all that God does. Hang
• 2:15:42
  on. I see why that's hard to read. It's hard
• 2:15:44
  to read. Yeah. Say it one more time. All of God
• 2:15:48
  does all that God does. He does not divide himself
• 2:15:52
  to perform a work, but works in the total unity
• 2:15:55
  of his being. He is not part mercy and part justice,
• 2:16:00
  but entirely merciful and entirely just all the
• 2:16:04
  time. And I think that's where to make things
• 2:16:09
  easy for ourselves we We divide him. But he's
• 2:16:13
  like, I never did that. And I think an example
• 2:16:15
  of that is the work of Jesus. He was just in
• 2:16:23
  that Jesus paid the penalty for sin. He paid
• 2:16:25
  the cost. He fulfilled justice. But then there
• 2:16:29
  was mercy that was shown in that we now can be
• 2:16:33
  rectified. We can be redeemed because of the
• 2:16:37
  justice. So it's like, it's this beautiful picture.
• 2:16:40
  And again, when we look at other believers, we
• 2:16:43
  look at other people, it's like, we have to take
• 2:16:45
  all of these things into consideration. Yeah.
• 2:16:47
  It's not just one. Right. It's all of them. Yeah.
• 2:16:50
  Yeah. I love that. So in conclusion, St. Nicholas,
• 2:16:58
  dirty rascal. You dirty rascal. Merry Christmas
• 2:17:03
  to you all and to all a good night. Three, two,
• 2:17:06
  one.