Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BOMBSHELL BOOK: "WHAT HAPPENED TO ELLEN?" Bride Stabbed 20 Times Ruled Suicide

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BOMBSHELL BOOK: "WHAT HAPPENED TO ELLEN?" Bride Stabbed 20 Times Ruled Suicide · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a bombshell book. What happened
0:09
Speaker 1: to Ellen? The bride to be stabbed twenty times, including
0:14
Speaker 1: in the back of the head, to the back of
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Speaker 1: the neck, to the back a horrible gash on the
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Speaker 1: back of her head? How could that be ruled suicide?
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Speaker 1: And why we want justice for Ellen. I'm Nancy Grace.
0:35
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
0:38
Speaker 2: Thanks you hear now it's on the floor foot, she responding,
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Speaker 2: I don't know, I can't I can't see anything. She didn't.
0:48
Speaker 2: There's nothing broken, she believed Ellie, which she may have
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Speaker 2: slipt his blood on the on the table, her feature
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Speaker 2: of a little purple.
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Speaker 1: Regardless of what you may hear on that nine one
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Speaker 1: one call, there is no way that this young bride
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Speaker 1: to be a first grade teacher slipped and fell on
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Speaker 1: a ninth twenty times. That did not happen, And according
1:13
Speaker 1: to many, many sleuths and many full on experts, including
1:18
Speaker 1: death investigators, medical examiners, lawyers, investigators, she did not commit suicide.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely impossible. Let's learn what we can from the original
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Speaker 1: nine to one.
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Speaker 2: One calls on the floor with blood everywhere addressed, but
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Speaker 2: please help Oh no, well, I don't know.
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Speaker 3: I can tell you, so you have to calm yourself
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Speaker 3: down in order to get you somehow.
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Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking
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Speaker 2: at her right now. I can't see anything shooting, there's
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Speaker 2: nothing broken.
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Speaker 4: She blea Ellie, you don't know where she's bleeding from.
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Speaker 2: I think her head everywhere, everywhere.
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Speaker 4: She might have fallen, you know what happened.
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Speaker 2: She may have slipped his blood on the on the table,
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Speaker 2: her pets of a little purple.
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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on for.
2:20
Speaker 2: On the phone.
2:21
Speaker 1: Can't see anything straight out to Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
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Speaker 1: Jackson State University, death investigator with over one thousand death
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Speaker 1: scenes to his credit, author of Blood Beneath My Feet
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Speaker 1: on Amazon and star of hitting new series Body Bags
2:37
Speaker 1: with Joseph Scott Morgan. Okay, number one, can we just
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Speaker 1: put this out there. Ellen did not slip and fall
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Speaker 1: and get stabbed twenty times? Can we agree on that
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Speaker 1: right up front? There's no slip and fall in this scenario.
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Speaker 1: But what I want to ask you about, I can't
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Speaker 1: see anything that was stated. Wasn't there? What a five
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Speaker 1: inch nine sticking out of her chest? Still.
3:02
Speaker 5: Yes, Yeah, the one pictured right here that you see,
3:05
Speaker 5: Nancy was still in place or as we say in
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Speaker 5: pathology inside you, which, of course, when Ellen's remains were
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Speaker 5: removed from the scene, the knife was left in place
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Speaker 5: so that they could observe it. He obviously, according to him,
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Speaker 5: couldn't see it. But it's very glaring. It's even glaring
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Speaker 5: in scene photos as well. Nancy.
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Speaker 1: When I say five inch, I mean five inch handle
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Speaker 1: in five inch blade. Would you agree with that, Jose Scott.
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Speaker 5: Oh, yeah, absolutely too.
3:32
Speaker 1: Tom Brennan joining me, consultant for Ellen Greenberg's family, who
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Speaker 1: has been on the case from the very beginning today
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Speaker 1: out the definitive book, What Happened to Ellen? An American
3:46
Speaker 1: miscarriage of justice? Tom Brennan, Isn't that correct? Isn't the
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Speaker 1: knife that was sticking out off her chest still embedded
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Speaker 1: in Ellen's chest as she sat upright on the kitchen
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Speaker 1: floor against the cabinets. Five inch blade, five inch handle?
4:04
Speaker 1: Is that correct, Tom?
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Speaker 6: Yes, it is, Yes, it is. I I have a
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Speaker 6: knife that is identical to the knife that was found on.
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Speaker 1: Island, and what was happening in her life is just
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Speaker 1: so poignant. I'm going to get back into the details
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Speaker 1: of the forensics in this case, which I believe, contrary
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Speaker 1: to online critics, the forensics prove to me that this
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Speaker 1: is not a suicide. I can't say it enough. What
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Speaker 1: a miscarriage of justice. This is her parents, Sandy and Josh,
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Speaker 1: whom I consider to be friends at this point, have
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Speaker 1: spent the last fourteen years plus their life savings. They
4:49
Speaker 1: just sold their home to prove their daughter did not
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Speaker 1: commit suicide. But forensics a side which I'm going to
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Speaker 1: go right back into. Let me go to Sandy Greenberg.
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Speaker 1: This is Ellen's mother. Sandy, thank you for being with
5:09
Speaker 1: us on this very important day in our lives. Were
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Speaker 1: the book that we have worked so hard on to
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Speaker 1: force the district attorney to investigate this case as they
5:22
Speaker 1: should have at the time she was murdered. Could you
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Speaker 1: explain to everyone why this was such a critical time
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Speaker 1: in Ellen's life, A happy time, a wonderful time that
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Speaker 1: in my mind precludes any possibility of suicide. What was
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Speaker 1: happening in her life there was so joyous.
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Speaker 3: We had just sent out to save the date cards
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Speaker 3: for the wedding. Everything was in place in terms of
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Speaker 3: deposits for the location, the music, the venue, hotels. So
6:02
Speaker 3: it seemed to me, like, you know, everything was organized,
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Speaker 3: and she loved her job as a teacher, but she
6:12
Speaker 3: seemed to feel she was overwhelmed at times. And I
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Speaker 3: couldn't understand how you could be overwhelmed from first graders,
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Speaker 3: but that's what she expressed.
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Speaker 1: Well, another issue, Sandy. You know, Sandy, I've never asked you,
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Speaker 1: after all this time, what were the details of the wedding.
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Speaker 1: Where was the wedding to be held? What venue? What music?
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Speaker 1: I can't believe I've never asked you that question.
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Speaker 3: It was going to be at the Hershey Hotel, which
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Speaker 3: is a lovely setting. It and located not too far
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Speaker 3: from where we were living in Pennsylvania, and we picked
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Speaker 3: out beautiful flowers. We were splitting the band with Sam's
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Speaker 3: parents because they really really liked this band, and we figured, okay,
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Speaker 3: we had a wonderful wedding planner as part of the
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Speaker 3: hotel who we became friends with because she was just
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Speaker 3: so talented and capable, and we had gotten her a
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Speaker 3: dress that was all taken care of.
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Speaker 1: The dress, Sandy, the dress is beautiful. You missed. The
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Speaker 1: best part of the dress was the path of it.
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Speaker 1: It had a big, beautiful rose material in the back.
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Speaker 1: It was stunning. But thank you. I love the dress
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Speaker 1: too and I'm grateful. Did you guys find the dress?
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Speaker 3: Sandy in Suburban Square in Philadelphia, Priscilla something a bridal.
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Speaker 1: Shock beautiful and you know to Karen Stark joining me,
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Speaker 1: renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant. You can
8:12
Speaker 1: find her at Karenstark dot com, Karen wi as Karen.
8:16
Speaker 1: With that backdrop she had, was just sending out the
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Speaker 1: save of the dates. She was very clear to everyone
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Speaker 1: that she loved the fiance, Sam Goldberg, that he was
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Speaker 1: mister Wright. They had dated a good chunk of time.
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Speaker 1: That backdrop, to me, makes it an even more stark event.
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Speaker 1: Of course, you and I have lived through a lot
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Speaker 1: of murders. I've prosecuted a lot of murders. You've helped
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Speaker 1: me analyze a lot of murders, but very rarely with
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Speaker 1: such a joyous, seemingly joyous backdrop as this, which makes
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Speaker 1: the dichotomy in my mind even more In.
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Speaker 7: A lot of ways, Nancy, this is so inconsistent with
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Speaker 7: what you would actually think of in terms of suicide,
9:07
Speaker 7: because you would have signs that somebody was actually having
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Speaker 7: suicidal ideations. That wasn't happening with Ellen at all.
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Speaker 1: And you just.
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Speaker 7: Heard her mother, her mother who lost her one and
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Speaker 7: only child, talk about the fact that she was not
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Speaker 7: stressed except for things from her classroom, which really working
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Speaker 7: with first graders, I can understand.
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Speaker 1: But she didn't talk you know about Karen. Hold on
9:34
Speaker 1: right there. Hold on just a second, Karen, because I
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Speaker 1: wanted to analyze something you heard Sandy, and Ellen's friends
9:41
Speaker 1: have told us this as well. You know, let me
9:44
Speaker 1: go to my co author Benet Nauer, who researched exhaustively,
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Speaker 1: tracked down witnesses, friends from way back when, all the
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Speaker 1: way going back to grammar school. We traveled to scenes,
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Speaker 1: we spoke to experts, We tracked down so much information
10:03
Speaker 1: to prove Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide. Benay, an
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Speaker 1: hour co author, What happened to Ellen? An American miscarriage
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Speaker 1: of justice? Benay, there was something else going on. And
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Speaker 1: you heard Sandy correctly allude to it that her daughter
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Speaker 1: Ellen had always been and you went all the way
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Speaker 1: back to middle school and elementary school. Friends had always
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Speaker 1: been so happy, go lucky, care free, was how many
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Speaker 1: of her friends described her. She did great in school.
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Speaker 1: She went on to get a graduate degree and landed
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Speaker 1: at this fantastic first grade class and an elementary school
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Speaker 1: and loved it. But suddenly she became anxious, anxious. Just before,
10:54
Speaker 1: just before she was found dead, she asked her parents
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Speaker 1: could she move back home and quit her job? And
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Speaker 1: I never understood, bene if she was that worried about
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Speaker 1: the first graders that she had always loved. She didn't
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Speaker 1: want to leave, she adored them. Why not just quit
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Speaker 1: the job and stay in the apartment she shared with
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Speaker 1: her fiance. Instead she wanted to move out and that
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Speaker 1: I don't know what her concern was. But isn't it true, Beney,
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Speaker 1: that her mom and dad said, listen, you're anxious, go
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Speaker 1: see a therapist. And she saw a therapist, and the
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Speaker 1: therapist said, without question, this is anxiety. A lot of
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Speaker 1: people have anxiety. She is absolutely not suicidal. Didn't that happen?
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Speaker 1: Ben an hour?
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Speaker 4: That absolutely happened a couple of things. It was clear,
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Speaker 4: according to her psychiatrist, that there was no suicide suicidal ideation.
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Speaker 4: But it is also true that Ellen was going through
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Speaker 4: a lot of stress and anxiety and did want to
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Speaker 4: get seemingly out of the home that she shared with
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Speaker 4: her fiance. She not only asked her parents if she
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Speaker 4: could go home, and they encouraged her to just finish.
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Speaker 8: The school year.
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Speaker 4: She also asked her cousin Debbie about living in her house.
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Speaker 4: She wanted to get away, it seemed absolutely, but she did.
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Speaker 4: She did tell her friends when they asked why she
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Speaker 4: seemed so stressed out, that there was stress about school.
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Speaker 4: It didn't seem to add up. But on the day
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Speaker 4: that she died, in her very last moments, likely she
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Speaker 4: spent her time calling her students' parents to make sure
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Speaker 4: the students had gotten home.
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Speaker 1: Because there was a Nor'easter.
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Speaker 4: It was a blizzard, and she wanted to make sure
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Speaker 4: that they were safe and they had all arrived home.
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Speaker 4: She seemed to have loved her job and those children,
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Speaker 4: and so lots of things don't add up here, but
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Speaker 4: she did absolutely entertain the notion of leaving her home.
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Speaker 1: So Tom Brennan, while police did not contact those people
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Speaker 1: that last spoke to Ellen before she was found dead
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Speaker 1: by her fiance, you.
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Speaker 6: Did, yeh.
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Speaker 1: Did the parents tell you what was her frame of mind?
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Speaker 6: Yes, they said she was fine, that she called them
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Speaker 6: an expressed concern over the kids, that in fact, she
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Speaker 6: wanted the parents to know that they were going to
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Speaker 6: have an early dismissal and that they should be there
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Speaker 6: to pick up their children.
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Speaker 1: So she was fine, And this is within two hours
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Speaker 1: before she's found dead.
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Speaker 6: Yes, how I learned about that was there was considerable
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Speaker 6: discussion regarding all these calls made from Ellen's phone, okay
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Speaker 6: and using a specific code, and they were What was
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Speaker 6: being said about it was she was going out of
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Speaker 6: her mind calling all these numbers. Well, no one ever
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Speaker 6: contacted any of those numbers. I did, and they were
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Speaker 6: all parents of the children in Ellen's class. And the
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Speaker 6: reason why she was making those calls was to contact
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Speaker 6: the parents and let them know they were going to
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Speaker 6: have an early dismissal, that they should be there to
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Speaker 6: pick up their children.
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Speaker 1: So even in the minutes the hour before she's found dead,
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Speaker 1: she's perfectly fine on the phone and she's contacting the
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Speaker 1: parents of her first graders. Is that correct, Tom.
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Speaker 6: Brennan, Yes it is, Yes it is.
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Speaker 9: Ellen Greenberg is the first grade teacher in Philadelphia. At
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Speaker 9: twenty seven years old, She and longtime boyfriend Sam Goldberg
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Speaker 9: have justin out out Save the Day cards for their
15:01
Speaker 9: upcoming wedding. A blizzard is bearing down on Philadelphia and
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Speaker 9: school has dismissed everyone early, and on her way home,
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Speaker 9: Ellen stops to fill up her gas tank. Once she's
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Speaker 9: home with her fiance Sam Goldberg, leaves around four forty
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Speaker 9: five pm to work out in the apartment complex Jim.
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Speaker 9: When Sam arrives back less than an hour later, the
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Speaker 9: door is locked from the inside.
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Speaker 2: Oh good, Oh my god. Everywhere everywhere.
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Speaker 4: Found pack out.
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Speaker 2: Of her heart.
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Speaker 1: Today, the definitive book on the murder of Ellen Greenberg
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Speaker 1: is released. What Happened to Ellen? All proceeds going to
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Speaker 1: the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. There is
15:53
Speaker 1: no pecuniary or money interest in writing this book. This
16:00
Speaker 1: book is intended to force the local district attorney to
16:04
Speaker 1: investigate this case after a long and painful saga her
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Speaker 1: parents have endured. What was so shocking to me is
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Speaker 1: that when Ellen's body was first taken to the medical examiner,
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Speaker 1: Guy DeAndrea joining me, who was a prosecutor in the
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Speaker 1: DA's office, who combed through Ellen's file and said, hey,
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Speaker 1: this is not a suicide alert. Nobody did anything. Nobody,
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Speaker 1: Isn't it true? Guy DeAndrea that. When Ellen's body was
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Speaker 1: taken to the medical examiner, doctor Marlon Osborne stated ruled
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Speaker 1: it was a homicide. Then, obviously with twenty wounds to
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Speaker 1: your back, the back of your head, the back of
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Speaker 1: your neck, even slicing the dura dua, the protective sheath
17:02
Speaker 1: around one's spine sliced, yet she continued to stab herself
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Speaker 1: twenty stab wounds. It's unheard of for a suicide, that said,
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Speaker 1: isn't it true? After doctor Osborne rule this a homicide,
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Speaker 1: he had a closed door meeting with representatives from the PHILLYPD,
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Speaker 1: from the District Attorney's office, and within the medical Examiner's office,
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Speaker 1: and when that door was open, he went, oh, yeah,
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Speaker 1: it's a suicide. It's taken this long to get that
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Speaker 1: ruling reversed under threat of lawsuit. Finally, Osborne is now saying,
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Speaker 1: this is definitely not a suicide. What happened in that
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Speaker 1: closed door meeting? Why did the assistant district attorney get
17:56
Speaker 1: immunity in this case? No one will come forward and
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Speaker 1: tell the truth.
18:00
Speaker 10: That's right. No one will say what happened in that meeting?
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Speaker 10: What I understood, whether it's true or not. The explanation
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Speaker 10: given to me by the medical examiner's office is that
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Speaker 10: the police convinced the medical Examiner's office that the door
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Speaker 10: was dead bolted shut and that no one could have entered,
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Speaker 10: which we now know, of course, Nancy, is not true.
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Speaker 1: The online haters are at it again. But really, Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: you've gone over this exhaustively, and you know, I'm going
18:30
Speaker 1: to let in a moment, Guy DeAndre and Beney now
18:33
Speaker 1: are and John Lucy chime in on this. But when
18:37
Speaker 1: his feet were held to the fire, when Sandy and
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Speaker 1: Josh Greenberg sued the medical examiners and the city at
18:45
Speaker 1: the eleventh hour, just before the jury was to hear
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Speaker 1: the evidence and the emmy was going to have to
18:51
Speaker 1: take the stand until what happened. He went, Oh, you
18:55
Speaker 1: know what, I don't think it was suicide. This has
18:59
Speaker 1: just happened. But yet we've had no movement from the
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Speaker 1: District Attorney's office. So now the online haters can chew
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Speaker 1: on that the original medical examiner is saying it was
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Speaker 1: not suicide. It's not just me screaming in the wilderness.
19:15
Speaker 1: This is wrong. It's not just Sandy her mother screaming
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Speaker 1: in the wilderness. To whoever will Listen now, the medical
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Speaker 1: examiner who examined the body says it was not suicide
19:28
Speaker 1: when he was forced to. And I want you to
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Speaker 1: explain to me in words we can understand, Joe Scott.
19:34
Speaker 1: We're not all death investigators like you. Why we know
19:39
Speaker 1: this is not a suicide. There is a killer walking
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Speaker 1: free that killed Ellen Greenberg. How do we know that,
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott?
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Speaker 5: Because I still hold to this day that this it's
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Speaker 5: an empirical impossibility for someone to self inflict twenty stab ones,
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Speaker 5: some of which are rather rather deep, Nancy, and some
20:01
Speaker 5: of them directed. Particularly you notice in this rendering the
20:07
Speaker 5: back of the neck, you've got intrusion that runs adjacent
20:12
Speaker 5: to the spinal cord. You've got one that goes into
20:15
Speaker 5: what we refer to as a cranial vault, which means
20:18
Speaker 5: the inside of the skull. You're talking about seahbellum at
20:20
Speaker 5: that point in Tom. And then of course you've got
20:24
Speaker 5: the final location in the chest where the knife is
20:28
Speaker 5: buried into the chest very deeply. What always come back to,
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Speaker 5: Nancy is is the fact that every time, every time
20:37
Speaker 5: you stab yourself or cut yourself, you're having pain centers fire.
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Speaker 5: And I've only had cases of self inflicted stab ones
20:47
Speaker 5: over the course of my career that have involved people
20:51
Speaker 5: that are in a I don't know how else to
20:54
Speaker 5: put it, they're in psychological distress, almost like having a
20:58
Speaker 5: psychotic event, and there's no indication. And relative to this,
21:02
Speaker 5: the most troubling thing though Nancy, relative to Ellen's case,
21:06
Speaker 5: for me, is not the stab wounds themselves. It's the
21:11
Speaker 5: absence of attention that was paid to all of these
21:15
Speaker 5: contusions that she It's now turned out that she has
21:19
Speaker 5: all over her body, particularly particularly those that are located
21:24
Speaker 5: on what is referred to as the anterior aspect of
21:26
Speaker 5: the neck. Here in this position, along her neck, you've
21:31
Speaker 5: got what would marry up in this position, almost like
21:34
Speaker 5: a sea clamp. You can see if you look very closely,
21:37
Speaker 5: you can see kind of this hemorrhagic formation. You know,
21:41
Speaker 5: when he did this initial autopsy, Nancy, you know what
21:44
Speaker 5: he said, the neck was unremarkable. Well, I don't know.
21:48
Speaker 5: I wasn't there for it, but I can look at
21:50
Speaker 5: that damn photograph and I can tell you it's remarkable
21:52
Speaker 5: to me.
22:02
Speaker 11: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Joe.
22:05
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, I want to follow up on exactly what
22:08
Speaker 1: you're saying. I've spoken in depth, of course to Josh
22:12
Speaker 1: and Sandy, her parents, and Josh Ellen's father has always
22:18
Speaker 1: said that he believed that she was strangled as well,
22:22
Speaker 1: not that the coeod cause of death was strangulation. It
22:25
Speaker 1: was not. It was the stab wounds. But another doctor,
22:30
Speaker 1: doctor Ross, consulted on this case and he found what
22:35
Speaker 1: you're talking about, and that is bruising to the strap muscles.
22:41
Speaker 1: He found it. You see it. Take a look. These
22:45
Speaker 1: bruce marks, which are very similar to finger marks, are unrelated.
22:53
Speaker 1: That's important, unrelated to the stab wounds. Those bruise marks
22:58
Speaker 1: to her neck and strap muscles around her neck are
23:01
Speaker 1: text book, text book signs of strangulation. Now if I
23:07
Speaker 1: can see it, mon here, yes please?
23:11
Speaker 5: Yeah. So where you see that V formation which production
23:15
Speaker 5: does a great job with these. Nancy, you take a
23:17
Speaker 5: look at that image you mentioned how her cod is
23:21
Speaker 5: not in asphixial related kind of death. I submit to
23:24
Speaker 5: you that you can be choked and not killed, obviously,
23:27
Speaker 5: but that position to me, based upon cases that I've
23:30
Speaker 5: seen Tom and Tom again, that's a control position, so
23:35
Speaker 5: that the hand, the hand of whoever perpetrated this was
23:40
Speaker 5: holding her in place by her neck, particularly with these
23:44
Speaker 5: injuries that you have on the front of her body,
23:46
Speaker 5: the antier, and of course the ps of resistance is
23:49
Speaker 5: where you have this knife that unfortunately is buried into
23:52
Speaker 5: Ellen's chest. You know, how are you going to get
23:54
Speaker 5: her to submit to that? And I think that one
23:57
Speaker 5: of the ways you do that is controlling her by
24:00
Speaker 5: her neck. I agree with Josh, and I agree with
24:02
Speaker 5: this other doctor that it came up with this conclusion,
24:06
Speaker 5: Doctor Ross.
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Speaker 1: You know, to Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mother, Sandy,
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Speaker 1: this is real. She could not physically have done this
24:16
Speaker 1: to herself.
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Speaker 3: So remarkable reliving this every time, and it only emboldens
24:24
Speaker 3: me more. She's my daughter, but she could be unfortunately,
24:29
Speaker 3: your daughter, your sister, your aunt, your niece. And this
24:35
Speaker 3: is so wrong on every level. How the Philadelphia establishment,
24:43
Speaker 3: the Solicitor's office have revealed themselves.
24:48
Speaker 12: Okay, okay, I'm gonna tell you what to do until
24:53
Speaker 12: they get here. Okay, her chest sang, Okay, feel me
25:08
Speaker 12: out by her side.
25:13
Speaker 1: You can't freak out.
25:14
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm trying to. Her shirt won't come off as
25:18
Speaker 2: a zipper. She stands herself where she fell.
25:23
Speaker 1: Night.
25:23
Speaker 2: Oh no, her night's sticking out what is sticking out herself?
25:30
Speaker 4: I guess I don't know what she's telling it.
25:32
Speaker 12: I don't know.
25:33
Speaker 2: Okay, well, don't tuck it.
25:34
Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel, and I want to
25:36
Speaker 1: thank everyone for being with us tonight on this occasion,
25:39
Speaker 1: the night of the release of What Happened to Ellen?
25:44
Speaker 1: An American miscarriage of justice? Why is the book being written?
25:47
Speaker 1: Why is the book on the stands now? Why is
25:50
Speaker 1: the book on Amazon? Because we want this case investigated.
25:56
Speaker 1: The original medical examiner, doctor Marlon Osborne, who wrongly rule
26:01
Speaker 1: this a suicide after a closed door meeting with a
26:05
Speaker 1: prosecutor that has now gotten immunity on the case. Members
26:10
Speaker 1: from the police department who on the scene that night
26:13
Speaker 1: said oh, yeah, looks like a suicide. Nothing's been stolen, conducted,
26:17
Speaker 1: no tests whatsoever. He first ruled the case homicide, changed
26:22
Speaker 1: it to suicide after the closed door meeting, has now
26:26
Speaker 1: ruled it's not a suicide. Why is there no movement
26:31
Speaker 1: on the case has become a political hot potato, even
26:36
Speaker 1: roping in the governor of Pennsylvania, who was considered to
26:41
Speaker 1: be the running mate on the Democratic presidential ticket for
26:45
Speaker 1: vice president, who has roped him into this thing because
26:49
Speaker 1: he has chosen to wash his hands of it and
26:52
Speaker 1: look the other way. Well, that is not working for me, Shapiro.
27:00
Speaker 1: You just heard the portion of the nine one one
27:02
Speaker 1: call where the specter is raised for the first time
27:05
Speaker 1: that Ellen stabbed herself or fell on a knife. Guy
27:13
Speaker 1: DeAndrea in the District Attorney's office, who combed through the file,
27:18
Speaker 1: waved a red flag. This is not a suicide. Why
27:23
Speaker 1: wouldn't anyone listen to you, guy? Yeah, that's a great question, Nancy.
27:28
Speaker 1: I have pushed and pushed and pushed.
27:31
Speaker 10: While I was there, and it was right up until
27:33
Speaker 10: the time I was about to leave that they finally,
27:36
Speaker 10: meaning the medical examiners, actually told me that they would
27:39
Speaker 10: acquiesce and change the report as soon as the findings
27:43
Speaker 10: from the independent medical examination that was done, which was
27:47
Speaker 10: done and came back what we all knew, and so
27:50
Speaker 10: I thought, back in twenty seventeen, Nancy, when this conversation happened,
27:55
Speaker 10: that this medical examiner's findings would be changed. So it
27:59
Speaker 10: baffles me to this day that despite them telling me
28:02
Speaker 10: that they agreed that this was certainly not a suicide,
28:05
Speaker 10: it was something else. Still nothing has been.
28:08
Speaker 1: But did nothing. Nothing physically speaking, forensically speaking, Joscott Morgan,
28:14
Speaker 1: I just want to clarify one thing. In addition to
28:17
Speaker 1: all of the stab wounds, including ten to the back,
28:21
Speaker 1: the back of the neck, the back of the head,
28:23
Speaker 1: there's a gash on her head. Ellen was right handed.
28:28
Speaker 1: How did she what was the direction of that gash?
28:31
Speaker 1: Right to left, left to right? How did that work?
28:35
Speaker 5: Well? The gash itself is generated by sharp force. This
28:40
Speaker 5: is not like a blunt laceration. Okay, So it appears
28:44
Speaker 5: to be that the knife itself sliced down through her scalp.
28:50
Speaker 5: It appears to be that it is going from left
28:54
Speaker 5: to right and probably from above to below. It's a
28:59
Speaker 5: very deep gas. As a matter of fact, it goes
29:01
Speaker 5: through what it's what we refer to as a full
29:04
Speaker 5: thickness insized wound. So it goes down almost to the
29:09
Speaker 5: level of the skull. And an odd a very odd
29:14
Speaker 5: finding when compared to all of these other injuries that
29:17
Speaker 5: she has over her body that were not slices or
29:21
Speaker 5: insized wounds. They were stab wounds, which are completely different
29:25
Speaker 5: but yet can be generated by the same weapon. In
29:28
Speaker 5: my opinion, it's that knife that's in her chest potentially.
29:31
Speaker 1: Tom Brennan joining me, who has helped Sandy and Josh
29:35
Speaker 1: Greenberg from the get go private investigator and consultant. Tom,
29:43
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking through all of the wounds and how
29:48
Speaker 1: impossible it would be. Statistically, when women commit suicide, they
29:54
Speaker 1: don't stab themselves period but certainly not twenty times and
30:00
Speaker 1: then keep on stabbing. But Tom, I'm curious. I find
30:08
Speaker 1: possibly the single most important piece of evidence to disprove
30:12
Speaker 1: the suicide theory is that not one, but two doctors
30:18
Speaker 1: state that at least one, if not more wounds were
30:23
Speaker 1: inflicted post mortem. In other words, they didn't bleed. Her
30:29
Speaker 1: heart was no longer pumping blood. She could not have
30:33
Speaker 1: inflicted those wounds. Tom Brennan, That's correct.
30:39
Speaker 6: We had an analysis performed on each and every wound,
30:44
Speaker 6: and that analysis came out saying that it was biomechanically
30:50
Speaker 6: impossible for a human being to stab themselves in the
30:55
Speaker 6: back of the neck with the force that was necessary
30:58
Speaker 6: to cause the damage that was observed during autopsy.
31:02
Speaker 1: Sandy Greenberg question, how do what is wrong with the
31:09
Speaker 1: online haters? Why are they so intent on insisting that
31:18
Speaker 1: Ellen committed suicide? I mean, they have no knowledge of
31:22
Speaker 1: the forensic findings. They never knew Ellen. They didn't speak
31:26
Speaker 1: to her friends or to you. How do you control
31:31
Speaker 1: yourself in the face of such adversaries.
31:35
Speaker 3: I just look at the entire picture. I want Ellen's
31:40
Speaker 3: name or Josh, and I would like Ellen's name clear cleared.
31:46
Speaker 3: I don't the haters. You know, statistically, you know you
31:52
Speaker 3: have to have.
31:53
Speaker 1: Some of that.
31:53
Speaker 10: But I.
31:56
Speaker 3: Put it in a box and I put the lid on,
31:59
Speaker 3: and I don't let it bother me at all. I
32:01
Speaker 3: have a mission to accomplish. And Ellen's parents are going
32:08
Speaker 3: to stick by her till the very end, and this
32:12
Speaker 3: is going to get cleared.
32:13
Speaker 11: Up crime stories with Nancy Grace.
32:26
Speaker 13: The settlement has reached days after doctor Marlon Osborne, who
32:29
Speaker 13: conducted the autopsy on Ellen Greenberg as the former assistant
32:32
Speaker 13: medical examiner with the Emmy's Office, signed a sworn verification
32:36
Speaker 13: statement in which he says he now believes Ellen's manner
32:39
Speaker 13: of death should be designated as something other than suicide.
32:43
Speaker 13: Doctor Osborne ruled Ellen Greenberg's death the homicide when she
32:46
Speaker 13: was found dead in the kitchen of her apartment with
32:48
Speaker 13: twenty stab wounds about her head, neck, and chest. Then,
32:52
Speaker 13: for reasons known only to him at the time change
32:55
Speaker 13: the ruling to suicide.
32:56
Speaker 1: To John Lucy. Joining us are renowned journalist Live dot
33:00
Speaker 1: Com and The Patriot News of Harrisburg, author of kill
33:03
Speaker 1: the story, John, You've got Marlon Osborne, the medical examiner
33:08
Speaker 1: at the time, state, this is not a suicide. We
33:11
Speaker 1: know it's not an accident. We know it's not natural causes.
33:15
Speaker 1: That leaves two choices undetermined and homicide basically homicide. So
33:21
Speaker 1: what's the hold up? Why has it the District Attorney's
33:25
Speaker 1: office begun the investigation?
33:28
Speaker 8: Well, this case has been kicked all over the place
33:31
Speaker 8: in terms of Jurisdictionally, it was originally the Philadelphia DA's office,
33:37
Speaker 8: then it went to the Attorney General's office because the
33:40
Speaker 8: incoming DA had a conflict of interest. That put it
33:43
Speaker 8: in now Governor Shapiro's lap for about four years. And
33:49
Speaker 8: now it is in another county's DA's office. And they
33:54
Speaker 8: said they've looked into it and put in advanced the case.
33:57
Speaker 8: But what would have been really interesting if the greed
34:00
Speaker 8: He may.
34:01
Speaker 1: Won't advance the case, right, But what.
34:04
Speaker 8: Would really be interesting if this case would have gone
34:07
Speaker 8: forward with Osborne flipping, if he could have been on
34:12
Speaker 8: the stand. Then we know what happened in those secret
34:14
Speaker 8: meetings with police and prosecutors. We know how much pressure
34:20
Speaker 8: was being put on to change from homicide to suicide,
34:23
Speaker 8: and we know a lot more about how this investigation
34:28
Speaker 8: was bungled from the beginning when the police at the
34:31
Speaker 8: scene didn't do any of that forensing testing, They didn't
34:35
Speaker 8: hold the scene, they allowed it to be sanitized and
34:38
Speaker 8: potential evidence lost for good exactly.
34:43
Speaker 1: You mentioned that it had been sitting with Shapiro, who
34:46
Speaker 1: has done nothing except cover for all of his cronies,
34:51
Speaker 1: which means there has to be an independent investigation. And
34:54
Speaker 1: I'm begging, begging the FEDS to police get involved in
34:58
Speaker 1: this miscarriage of just speaking of Shapiro, who is that
35:03
Speaker 1: close to the Oval office. Until Ellen Greenberg's name came up, Listen, he.
35:08
Speaker 14: Transferred it to the Chester County District Attorney. If memory
35:11
Speaker 14: serves me, they looked at it for a couple of
35:14
Speaker 14: years and they found the same determination as well. It
35:19
Speaker 14: has to have some evidence with it, not just someone
35:21
Speaker 14: feeling different, but certainly if there's some evidence that this
35:25
Speaker 14: medical examiner has uncovered, I'm not familiar with that. I'm
35:29
Speaker 14: no longer the age. If they have new evidence, new information,
35:32
Speaker 14: they should share that immediately.
35:34
Speaker 1: There you here, Governor Shapiro just passing the ball again.
35:39
Speaker 1: That's not his job. His job is to protect his constituents,
35:43
Speaker 1: and that includes Josh and Sandy Greenberg. Now I want
35:49
Speaker 1: you to hear William Trask, attorney.
35:52
Speaker 14: Now, the City's agreed that the current medical examiner will
35:56
Speaker 14: reopen Ellen's case and look at the evidence of her
36:00
Speaker 14: manner of death and come to their own.
36:02
Speaker 1: Conclusion from our friend's WPV. I so let me understand,
36:05
Speaker 1: Tom Brennan, what are we waiting on?
36:08
Speaker 6: It's okay, that's that decision came in February. It is
36:13
Speaker 6: now the end of April. We still haven't heard a
36:16
Speaker 6: thing from Philadelphia. Nothing. Why what's the.
36:20
Speaker 1: Hold of I mean, Tom Brennan, can we get real?
36:24
Speaker 1: Even if you did hear Philadelphia say okay, we're going
36:27
Speaker 1: to look into it, do you trust them? I don't.
36:30
Speaker 1: After all of it, we have to have an investigation.
36:35
Speaker 6: I have no faith in the City of Philadelphia at all. Okay,
36:41
Speaker 6: that's why when I began this investigation, I told Sandy
36:46
Speaker 6: and Josh they are going to have to be extremely patient.
36:50
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what Tom Brennan before I try to
36:54
Speaker 1: read Philadelphia or any other municipality of corruption. What I'd
36:59
Speaker 1: like to do is to start with justice for Ellen.
37:02
Speaker 1: If I could just get that underway, Guiding Andrea, what
37:07
Speaker 1: do we have to do to put a fire under
37:10
Speaker 1: their tail?
37:11
Speaker 10: Everything Nancy has been done so meticulously, from you to
37:15
Speaker 10: the Greenberg's to everyone working so hard. I do not
37:21
Speaker 10: understand to this day, what is taking so long? You
37:24
Speaker 10: have Marlon Osborne agreeing that it is not a suicide,
37:28
Speaker 10: which we all know because that originally he called it
37:31
Speaker 10: a homicide. I don't know what else they could possibly
37:35
Speaker 10: need to move this. What are they waiting for? I mean,
37:39
Speaker 10: I know it's not a great answer.
37:41
Speaker 1: The guy, we can't go to the governor. We can't
37:44
Speaker 1: go to the age. He was connected to the governor,
37:47
Speaker 1: So that takes me out of Pennsylvania. How do we
37:51
Speaker 1: get the feds to investigate? That's the only recourse?
37:56
Speaker 10: Guy, Yeah, The best way I think to get the
37:58
Speaker 10: federal authorities involved is highlighting potential corruption, right because that's
38:03
Speaker 10: what's going to give them the jurisdiction to come in
38:07
Speaker 10: and evaluate this in terms of whether it's a cover off,
38:10
Speaker 10: whether it's mistakes, whether it's corruption, that's what we need
38:13
Speaker 10: them to focus on, because going all the way back
38:17
Speaker 10: to twenty eleven, something went wrong many many, many many
38:22
Speaker 10: ways along the way.
38:23
Speaker 1: Sandy Greenberg, did you ever believe that it would come
38:28
Speaker 1: to this, that this many years later, he would still
38:31
Speaker 1: be fighting for justice for your daughter?
38:34
Speaker 3: Ever in my wildest dreams did I think that there
38:38
Speaker 3: would be any kind of corruption whatsoever. That's why we
38:42
Speaker 3: have laws, and that's why we have law enforcement. I'd
38:47
Speaker 3: like to follow rules, and I never was prepared.
38:53
Speaker 1: I wasn't prepared, but I certainly.
38:55
Speaker 3: Am now because I'm not giving Uppin's not giving up.
39:02
Speaker 3: And the more people see what's going on, they have
39:07
Speaker 3: to be concerned. It's tremendous public distrust right now.
39:13
Speaker 1: Sandy Greener joining me, Sandy, what is your message tonight?
39:19
Speaker 1: Do the right thing? I remember, Sandy, you told me
39:22
Speaker 1: that you believed that the authorities, if I could call them,
39:27
Speaker 1: that we're waiting for you to either run out of
39:31
Speaker 1: money to fight this thing, or to just go away
39:34
Speaker 1: and die, and then it would be over for them.
39:38
Speaker 3: You told me that the truth will speak for itself,
39:43
Speaker 3: and the truth always comes out.
39:45
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds what happened to Ellen. An
39:51
Speaker 1: American Miscarriage of Justice, goes on the stands and on
39:55
Speaker 1: Amazon today. Written with the help of my co author
40:02
Speaker 1: Beney an Hour, We have left no stone unturned. All
40:08
Speaker 1: proceeds to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
40:13
Speaker 1: We are fighting in every way that we can for
40:18
Speaker 1: justice for Ellen and tonight American heroes. There could be
40:27
Speaker 1: no one more heroic than Josh and Sandy Greenberg, who
40:34
Speaker 1: have fought now nearly fifteen years for justice in our
40:40
Speaker 1: American justice system, and as of tonight, they have not
40:45
Speaker 1: gotten it. We have daughters, sisters that we want to protect.
40:54
Speaker 1: They could not protect Ellen from a killer, but they
40:58
Speaker 1: can protect her now. Please help them. Nancy Gray signing off,
41:05
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,