Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / Chief Fire Officer Mark Spain says he was in the room when Jamie Chalker is alleged to have called firefighters greedy and does not recall the Commissioner making slanderous comments

Transcript

Chief Fire Officer Mark Spain says he was in the room when Jamie Chalker is alleged to have called firefighters greedy and does not recall the Commissioner making slanderous comments · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Now, yesterday there were some pretty serious claims made by
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: the union, which represents Northern Territory firefighters on the show
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: that the Commissioner for Northern Territory Police, Fire and Emergency
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Services allegedly told new recruits on their second day of
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: training well that firefighters are greedy and that he was
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: coming after one senior fire officer who's also a union delegate. Now,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: the comments were allegedly made to about twelve n fire
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: recruits on April twenty, when there was roughly twenty people
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: in the room. Now, if you missed that interview yesterday
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: with erin Early, take a bit of a listen to
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: what she'd had to say to us yesterday on the show.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: On the second day of the recruitquad training that were
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  Speaker 2: the twentieth of April, the CEO for the Fire service,
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  Speaker 2: Jamie Chalker, was invited to make him the address.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: To the new recruits. During his address, he said that
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: the union was a bully, He's not going to tolerate
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: bullying behavior within his fire service, and that there's a
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  Speaker 3: senior fire officer who's also a union delegate and that
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: he was coming after him. He then started talking about
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  Speaker 3: there's a lot of overtime in the fire service and
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  Speaker 3: that firefighters are greedy. He's said that don't follow that
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: same pathway with the greedy firefighters continuing a pathway.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: So, like I said, there's some pretty serious claims which
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: were made yesterday on the show, and the union head
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  Speaker 1: not only backed those claims, but is also called for
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  Speaker 1: the Commissioner to stand down as the CEO of NT
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  Speaker 1: Fire and Rescue, calling for the fire service to be
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  Speaker 1: separated from the Northern Territory Police. Now joining me on
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  Speaker 1: the show this morning is a person who I understand
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  Speaker 1: was in the room when the comments were allegedly made.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: It is the Northern Territory's Chief Fire Officer, Mark Spain.
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  Speaker 1: Good morning to you, Mark.
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: Good morning, Katie, Good morning listeners.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: We really appreciate your time this morning. Now, Well, firstly,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: they were obviously some pretty serious claims. Were you in
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  Speaker 1: the room that day?
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  Speaker 4: Absolutely? I was.
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  Speaker 5: Is a very important day as day two of the
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: recruit program. I think it's important that the CEO for
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: Forign and Rescue addressed the troops, as did I, and
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: as did the assistant chief. The Deputy chief was away
• 2:21
  Speaker 5: on leave at the time, so he wasn't there. It's
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  Speaker 5: a great opportunity. You've got to remember, these recruits there
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  Speaker 5: are like deers and headlights. They've just joined one of
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  Speaker 5: the greatest jobs there is to join. And then it
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  Speaker 5: was an opportunity for us to float our future directions
• 2:35
  Speaker 5: where the norther Territory Fire and Rescue Service needs to go.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: So did the police commissioner or did the commissioner, I
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  Speaker 1: should say for police and the CEO of Fire and
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  Speaker 1: Emergency Services say that firefighters are greedy.
• 2:48
  Speaker 5: Not to my recollection, that happened six to eight weeks ago.
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  Speaker 5: I've just come back off two weeks leave when i
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  Speaker 5: was confronted with this. But I'll put it on record
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  Speaker 5: that I've come in here under my own riscient as
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  Speaker 5: the chief officer, I protect the brand. I cannot recall
• 3:02
  Speaker 5: those words. I can recall that the CEO covered off
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  Speaker 5: on a lot of valuable commentary to the recruits. Remember
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  Speaker 5: aythings starting their career, they're going to have a long career.
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  Speaker 5: And we talked about yes, there is a lot of
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  Speaker 5: overtime being run to meet the obligations to the community
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  Speaker 5: under our minimum staffing arrangements. But that's a side issue
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  Speaker 5: that I'm meeting with the new Minister today we'll discuss
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: those sort of.
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  Speaker 4: Where we are at the moment.
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  Speaker 5: So the Commissioner spoke very calmly, he's spoken and he
• 3:31
  Speaker 5: simply did not identify any senior officer. He did not
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  Speaker 5: point out an make any reference to a senior officer.
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  Speaker 5: Also being a delegate, that person's probably exposed themselves through
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  Speaker 5: the representation of ARENA. Now Arena is only representing her
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: members of what they were told. Now, I had to
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: recruit fire fighters that weren't even there.
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  Speaker 4: On the day.
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  Speaker 5: They are actually COVID leave straight up on the recruit course.
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: They're on COVID break so that the numbers don't add up.
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  Speaker 4: I was there.
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  Speaker 5: I'll stand by the CEO on the presentation he gave.
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  Speaker 5: He talked about a whole lot of things, health and
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  Speaker 5: well being. The fire fighters will be exposed to a
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  Speaker 5: lot of carnage, whether it be through structure fires, death
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  Speaker 5: and fires, road crash rescues has matt. He spoke about
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  Speaker 5: the future of the fire service where it needs to go.
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  Speaker 5: And I've been working very closely with the CEO since
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  Speaker 5: the formation of the Northern Territory Fire and Rescue Service
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  Speaker 5: back in twenty twenty of where the fire Service is
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  Speaker 5: now and where it needs to go.
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  Speaker 4: What is pleasing with the CEO is that he listens.
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  Speaker 1: And so from your recollection, so from what you're saying,
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  Speaker 1: the CEO did not say that firefighters are greedy.
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  Speaker 5: My recollections, he did not. He raised the issue about
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  Speaker 5: overtime and what he clearly said was don't bank your
• 4:43
  Speaker 5: finances around the reliance on overtime. Overtime is privileged, not
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  Speaker 5: a right, and it's one of those things we've got
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  Speaker 5: to work through. There are a number of factors why
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  Speaker 5: there is a lot of overtime in the fire Service
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  Speaker 5: and that we've clearly done that body of work under
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  Speaker 5: my role as the Chief FIREFFS under and as the
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  Speaker 5: director under the Act. My role is to review the
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  Speaker 5: fire service regularly with the team that I've got a
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  Speaker 5: very good executive team. We've done that, we've unpacked where
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  Speaker 5: the fire Service needs to go and what the shortfalls
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  Speaker 5: are and as I said, we'll meet with the new
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  Speaker 5: Minister today and we'll have the opportunity to lay our concerns.
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  Speaker 1: So he did say don't bank your finances on your overtime.
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  Speaker 1: It is a privilege, not a right.
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  Speaker 4: That's correct.
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  Speaker 1: Could some have taken that in a derogatory way.
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  Speaker 5: I think if you listen to every word that said,
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  Speaker 5: some people will pick up a certain word and turn
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  Speaker 5: it into what they believes may be directed at them
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  Speaker 5: or whatever. The reality is a lot of my firefighters
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  Speaker 5: have had exposure to a lot of overtime over a
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  Speaker 5: period of time and they have basically finances on that
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  Speaker 5: and they've written to us saying, you know, we owe us,
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  Speaker 5: well we don't.
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  Speaker 4: Over time is a privilege.
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  Speaker 5: Same with the thing that the CEO pointed out on
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  Speaker 5: our patch, and my my job is to protect the brand,
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: not the individual, and it's to serve and protect the community.
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  Speaker 4: We serve and protect the community.
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  Speaker 5: You know, I have two hundred and fifty volunteers as
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  Speaker 5: well to turn up day in, day out to serve
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  Speaker 5: their communities across twenty seven locations across the Northern Territory.
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  Speaker 5: So we've got a broad spectrum of firefighters to do that.
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  Speaker 5: So if they've took it, taken it the wrong way,
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  Speaker 5: I totally disagree with those statements. I was there, the
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  Speaker 5: instructors that were there, I've got higher regard for those instructors.
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  Speaker 5: They are all positive. We met after full morning tea.
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  Speaker 5: They're all positive, everyone's excited about moving on for it
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  Speaker 5: and it's such a great job Spain.
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  Speaker 1: Have you spoken to any of the other people that
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: were in the room since this has all come out.
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  Speaker 5: No, it was the news to me. I've just come
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  Speaker 5: back from leave two weeks leave. It was news to
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  Speaker 5: me that it came out in this format. What I
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  Speaker 5: am concerned about is they've replaced the recruits in a
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  Speaker 5: very awkward position. They want to get on with a career,
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: a great career within fire industry. They're in an awkward
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  Speaker 5: position being referenced like this. The union will want to
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  Speaker 5: sign them up as soon as they can. That's fair
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  Speaker 5: enough for them.
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: The union have.
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  Speaker 5: Their obligations to do that. But all I want to
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  Speaker 5: focus on is the recruit course is fair, firm, and
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  Speaker 5: enjoyable and there's a lot to learn.
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  Speaker 1: Now. Did the CEO say that he was going to
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: go after one union delegate?
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  Speaker 5: Absolutely not. I'll say that he never identified anyone. He
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: referenced the union and he also said to the recruits
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  Speaker 5: put up your hand if you accept bullying in the workplace.
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  Speaker 5: There was a general statement he said, if you want
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  Speaker 5: to work in this workplace, I will tolerate no bullying.
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  Speaker 5: I have the same view internally. We can't expose everything,
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  Speaker 5: but we will take it to task anyone that shows
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  Speaker 5: any signs of bullying it no matter what level, what rack.
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  Speaker 5: The CEO did not point out any senior officer, and
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  Speaker 5: he also did not point out that he was after
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  Speaker 5: a delegate or you.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Now, was there a situation in any case where management
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: or anybody on that day then had to call the
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  Speaker 1: delegate or call anybody afterwards to make sure that they
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  Speaker 1: were okay based on any of the comments made by
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  Speaker 1: the CEO.
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  Speaker 5: It didn't warrant it, Katie. There was no comments to
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  Speaker 5: pinpointed to any individual. The CEO spoke holistically, and when
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  Speaker 5: you talk about senior officers, you can talk about officers
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  Speaker 5: that have been in for a long time. Whoe a
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  Speaker 5: senior position are very influential, doesn't matter what rank they
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  Speaker 5: are at. And that's the whole issue there. The fire
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  Speaker 5: Service is such a small service. Everyone knows everyone.
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  Speaker 4: They are very.
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  Speaker 5: They can be very guarded, or they can be very
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  Speaker 5: protected if and take it the wrong way, if they
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  Speaker 5: assure tailed on them.
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  Speaker 1: There is definitely going to be people listening this morning
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  Speaker 1: who are thinking to themselves. You know, of course you're
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  Speaker 1: going to of course you are going to support the
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  Speaker 1: CEO of Foreign Emergency Services because presumably your job could
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  Speaker 1: depend on it.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm looking. I'm at that great stage. I've had
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  Speaker 5: thirty six years as in the fire industry. I love
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  Speaker 5: this industry. If I will, I'm my own person. I'm
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  Speaker 5: not a fluent public speaker, as you can ascertain, but
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  Speaker 5: I will stand up and I'll say what is right
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  Speaker 5: under my own credentials. I have chosen to come in
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  Speaker 5: here by myself, no enticement for anyone, and I will
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  Speaker 5: speak what I observed and what I can recall from
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  Speaker 5: that conversation.
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  Speaker 1: Spiny, is this mudslinging because there is you know, pay
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: negotiations underway at the moment.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, look, we're in eb negotiations.
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  Speaker 5: But that, as Arena correctly said, it's nothing to do
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  Speaker 5: with the CEO for Police Foreign Meergen Services. It's with
• 9:44
  Speaker 5: the Commissioner of Public Employment. I can't link those two
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  Speaker 5: with it. That's an ongoing process. That's just part of
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: the enterprise bargaining process.
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  Speaker 1: Now, I do want to ask as well, though, are
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: fireries there are some fireries concerned they are the poor
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: cousin of police.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: Look, I've been one of those fires up coming through
• 10:05
  Speaker 5: the ranks. I've come through the ranks. You know, we've
• 10:07
  Speaker 5: played in that space. We'll being the poor cousins or
• 10:10
  Speaker 5: the little brother and the entest being the poor cousins.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 5: But when you really unpack and you listen to what
• 10:15
  Speaker 5: community are asking. Police have a big portfolio to cover,
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: but so do we. So it's myself as the executive
• 10:22
  Speaker 5: and my executive team is to fight through that, get
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: through the white noise and actually sell to ministers why
• 10:28
  Speaker 5: the antifrus needs to exist. And you only have to
• 10:30
  Speaker 5: look at the high rise increased in minerals exploration. You've
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: got heavy road usage, You've got the gray name ads
• 10:38
  Speaker 5: come up. Tourism is really doing the big push. You've
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: got the middle arm projects. So my focus is not
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: really around the enterprise agreement. My focus is where do
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: we take the fire service to be a contemporary fire
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: service into the next eight ten years. And that's part
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: of the twenty thirty project back to basics that the
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: CEO has put into place. We've been working titlessly on
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: that for the last eight ten months and we've got
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: some really good evidence based stuff to say where we
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: need to be and where.
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: We need to go.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Spany I know that Erin really did say on the
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: show yesterday that there is a video. Are you confident
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: that should a video be presented in or released in
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: some way, that there is nothing to indicate disrespect towards Safaris?
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: No, there's nothing. The boss spoke very calmly.
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: He spoke off a number of points once again, their
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: own welfare, he spoke about. He did mentionine unions. Unions
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: play a role in the fire service. Also, let's talk
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: about the big elephant the room, bullying in the workplace.
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: Bullying can work up, bullying can work down. There are
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: the type of things that we continue to address and
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: work towards. Working with the union is to making a
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: coherent workforce and by doing that, we're looking for a
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: diverse workforce as well.
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: So we've got a lot of work to do, but
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: positive work.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Look, I will ask you. I know that this is
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: something that you probably can't really weigh in on, but
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: there has been some discussion about whether the Northern Territory
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Fire and Rescue needs to separated from the police portfolio.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: As I say, I know it's not a decision that
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: would be made by you. It's obviously a decision that
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: would be made by our politicians. But is that something
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: that's you know, that people talk to you about.
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a common common talk arena covered a little
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: bit often. Yesterday she explained her position on it, But
• 12:20
  Speaker 5: I think a lot more work would need to go
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: in it. Under my act, under the Fire Emergency Act
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: is that the Police Commissioner is our CEO.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: So it's in the act. That's where it is at
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: the moment.
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: Have to be a lot more consultation with government and
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: all the appropriate other groups as to their their involvement,
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: their thought processes.
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: Is to is there need for a change?
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Hey, another topic that we actually spoke about yesterday. This
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: is quite separate, but we had Jerry Wood on the show.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: I know some people out in the rural area do
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: not want the Palmerston fire Station name the Palmeston fire
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Station or Palmeston and Region all. They want it to
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: be Palmeston and rural.
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: Where is this at A good question? Cartie sort of
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: try to step out of that a little bit. Look,
• 13:02
  Speaker 5: I'm all for my personal opinion, and this is my
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: personal opinion. Is the Palmston Regional Fire Rescuing and Regions
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: Services Complex very similar to the Berrima one that opened
• 13:12
  Speaker 5: up in twenty twelve. And yes, I understand that individuals
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: I have certain naming rights and conventions what it should be.
• 13:19
  Speaker 5: At the end of the day, the big picture is
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: the fire stations don't put out fires, and the fire
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: stations don't put out I rescue people from cars. It's
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: the firefighters within those stations. If you haven't look the
• 13:28
  Speaker 5: expansion of Palmston, it's expanded thirty three percent, so I've
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: got about thirty eight thousand people in Palmston alone.
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: Then you look at the.
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: Lichville shi that's increased by about thirty percent in population.
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: So we're broadening. You've got to look at Cooler Linga.
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: You look at that.
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: So the idea and I have to do a big
• 13:42
  Speaker 5: shout out to the former Minister Nicole Madison. She sat
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: there around the table with the firefighters in Palmston many
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: years ago and saying what would you like?
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: What do we need?
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: She has come up and her Minister Law have come
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: up with this beautiful station that is built for the future.
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: It will take extra growth and that we can respond
• 14:01
  Speaker 5: to the growing population in the rural area. As for
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: the name and convention, I don't really want to get
• 14:05
  Speaker 5: into that. All I want to do is be able
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: to provide a service to the community of Palmerston and beyond.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Before I let you go, how are things looking when
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: it comes to this fire season and most people getting
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: their firebreaks organized and doing everything that they need to do.
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd dec like to take this opportunity for those
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: rule members. Please be considered of your other rural neighbors.
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: Put your four meter minimum firebreaks around your block, get
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: them done now before it's too late.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Mark Spain, the Chief fire Officer with the Northern Territory
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Fire and Rescue Service. I appreciate you coming in this
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: morning and having that extensive discussion with us. Thank you
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: very much for your time.
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: Thanks Coatie, Thank you,