Latest / The Charity Changemakers Podcast / Season 3 | Ep 13 Julie Randles on why every charity leader should sit on a board
Transcript
- Julie: I think if you're wanting to enter the charity sector, I do think you need to be fully aware, one needs to be fully aware that you're joining it for different reasons than financial reward and possibly career recognition as well. You're joining it because you are purpose driven, but there are challenges and annoyances that come with that. One of the senior management team at one of the charities where I'm a CEO says, it's hard, but hard is what we've chosen. And I think that's a perfect summing up of the charity sector. Adam Stacey: I'm really pleased to welcome Julie onto the Charity Changemakers podcast today. Thanks so much, Julie, for for joining us. Julie: You're really welcome, Adam. I'm delighted to be here. Adam Stacey: Yeah, no, it's great to great to have you. And as I say more or less every week, I can't do justice to an introduction. So I always hand over with my slopy shoulders, hand that responsibility on. yeah, if you want to take a a minute or so to introduce yeah, who you are and what you do. Julie: I'm Julie Randalls, I'm CEO of Power2, which is a children and young people's charity based in Ashland and Delign in Greater Manchester and working right across the North West, West Midlands and Greater London and various little bits around those areas. Adam Stacey: We'll obviously hear more about the about the charity, about the organization as we move through the podcast. And as Julie: There'll be an entire 35 minutes with talking about what we do. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, indeed. Which is yeah, which is which is great and and and really important and exactly why we love to do these podcasts to to to raise awareness of the of the sector and the work that's taking taking place. And and obviously our listeners get you know really enjoy getting to know people that come on the show. So we have these quick fire questions that we fire at everybody. And so before we get into all of that, the you know, the stuff around the organization and your career journey. what what does a good weekend or a day off look like for you, Geely? Julie: So if it's a day off, hopefully I'm on holiday somewhere, but for a weekend I walk and I read pretty much. And that's great. And Adam Stacey: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Julie: I love doing both those things. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, there's there's a real theme and and and about getting outdoors. and yes, yeah, yeah, which is really coming coming through. Julie: Yeah, and I'm a great believer actually in walking and talking meetings. I'm neurodivergent, so actually being on screen is quite tough for me. you know, I think it's just 45 minutes here. But actually walking and talking is great. So I have a lot of one-to-ones walking and talking. And sometimes the person on the other end is walking as well, and sometimes they're not, but they work really well. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, but I mean, yeah, walking and talking podcast. Maybe maybe we could have I don't yeah, the technology we maybe we could have pulled that off. yes, yeah, somehow, yeah, that but no Julie: Next time. Adam Stacey: yeah, next time, yeah, absolutely. and what's something something small that brings you a disproportionate amount of joy? Julie: So I actually think it's really important to take a lot of joy from all the small things, particularly when the big things are maybe slightly less joyful. So there's lots of them, but I'm going to go for having a hot bath with reading a good book and eating tomatoes whilst I'm in it. Adam Stacey: So yes, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Julie: I know and I can do that every day so I'm really... Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Indeed. No, that's great. And what's what's one thing that people always assume about your job that yeah, that just isn't true? Julie: So it's a tough time to be a charity CEO at the moment, as I'm sure you and all your listeners know. And I'm no exception. And so they all think, I think the casual observer thinks my job is really stressful. It's really busy. And I'm a very anxious person anyway, which doesn't help. And it's really hot. So I think they would be surprised at how much I love it. and how lucky and proud I feel to have the job that I have. I've got an absolutely fantastic team and the outcomes we deliver for children and young people are life-changing. So I'm not intending to retire any time soon. Adam Stacey: Great, good. And I'm sure we'll hear more about yeah, where where that joy comes for you in in in in the role because we're obviously really interested in hearing more about your career journey, what that's looked like and how it's got you to where you are today. And this always feels like a big question when I ask people it, but you know, how how did working in the charity sector come about come about for you? Julie: through quite a long and convoluted process actually. I was the first person in my family to go on to higher education. I thought that, and I really wanted to work with books. There's an absolute theme coming through Adam Stacey: Yes. Julie: here. I didn't know that office jobs were interesting. I thought I didn't work experience in an office while I was at school and I thought it was just about filing. because that was what I was doing. And I thought you could only work in books by working in a bookshop. I didn't know all the other things that existed. And so I joined WH Smith on the graduate training scheme at the point at which WH Smith still existed. And graduate training schemes were a thing. And I was there for seven years. And as part of that, I worked in WH Smith, worked in Waterstones, because they owned Waterstones at the time, started working with with publishers in a head office marketing role and then moved into publishing where I was in sales because sales in publishing and having worked in the retail book sector are obviously very complimentary in terms of skills. I spent a long time in that role in various different publishers. think I've worked for nearly all of them now, especially since they've all combined. And then just after I had my daughter, I spent a year working for the Refugee Council on the Adam Stacey: Yes, right. Julie: Asylum Support Programme, which, and doing the co-coordination between a group of five refugee agencies and the Home Office. And looking back, it just seems really, I think we didn't know what glorious times we were living in, because although it was still hard, be a refugee and on asylum seeking we're advocating for it. It was a glory time compared to what it's like now. So that's really interesting and retrospect. I then got headhunted back into the children's book sector and I was managing director of Scholastic Book Clubs, which if you were North American you would know all about, but it's slightly less well known in the UK. But we were in 16,000 schools and the model was we were getting children reading in schools, so they were children who were less likely to be going into bookshops and we were giving a large percentage of the value of those sales back to schools for their libraries in free books. So the model was getting children reading, giving books to schools, and absolutely about increasing literacy levels, because that's one of the surefire ways of increasing your chances of future aspiration. And obviously, it had quite a charitable aspect to it, know, the big chunk going to schools in free books. I loved that job. Reading books was part of my job and my daughter who was between five and eight at the time got to read some of the books for us so she loved Adam Stacey: Yes, right. Julie: that too. And then when I left that job, I had been working with Save the Children on a project where we were supplying books to one of their programmes. And when I told them I was leaving, I rang them to say that I'd be really happy to come and do some voluntary work for them if they wanted. Two weeks later, they rang me back and said, did you really mean that? Adam Stacey: Yes. Julie: So I then spent three months in, the children head office working on a UK program at the time they had called Eat Sleep Learn Play, where they provided books and clothing and vital resources to families living in poverty. And I was doing data entry. was doing data entry for the families to make sure that they got the the goods that were most appropriate for their situation would Adam Stacey: That's true. Julie: help them out the most. And it was a really great job because it was purpose driven rather than profit making. you know, I'd finally got to where I wanted to be. But also because it was data entry, I could just listened to what was going on around me and picked up a huge amount and Save the Children was really inclusive in terms of its volunteers as well at the time. So it got invited to all the big organization meetings. It was around the time of the civil war in Syria. So there was a big meeting about whether intervention was appropriate or not. So it was great from that point of view as well. And then I discovered in that having been trying to get into charity for quite a long time that the way that you needed to apply for jobs in charities was very different to how you needed Adam Stacey: Right. Julie: to apply. You need to apply for jobs in the private sector. And so I just kept on applying for internal jobs and getting them and getting them and getting them. Adam Stacey: Yes, yeah. Julie: And so I was there for three years and all and I ended up as running the Families and Schools Together program, which was, and I won't go into the exact details of why, but actually quite similar to the work that Power2 does. So there was a leap there. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Julie: I then moved to the Sutton Trust, which is a social mobility charity as director of programs, and then on to an organization that again was a social mobility charity, so spent a chunk of time in the social mobility sector. which is effectively getting young people from disadvantaged backgrounds into a higher elite institutions, if you use some of the wording, so Russell Group universities, et cetera. And then I had a small sojourn in the international development sector, doing an interim role for a charity called Build Africa, where I spent quite a lot of time in Uganda. Before... applying for the role of CEO at Power2. And I had actually applied for it five years before as well. you know, bit like Andy Burnham, kept my eye on the top job and then finally got it. Adam Stacey: Right, okay. Yes. Keep going. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we'll yeah, we'll definitely unpack some of that for sure. I I think it's really I mean, a fascinating career journey where you can take that love of love of books and from a publishing background and make make that transition. but also I guess the pa the power of volunteering in that first instance. Yeah. Julie: Absolutely the power of volunteering. mean, a huge believer in it. My daughter's absolutely, I should say as well, my daughter absolutely brings me joy, but that's not small joy, that's constant joy. So I do talk about her a lot, but she's 22 and she's a Brownie leader. So she's absolutely doing really intensive volunteering. But I've been, so I was a school governor for 10 years and I've now in my, let me see, let me add it up, 10th year as a charity trustee. So I did two terms of three years each at two different charities as trustees. And now I'm a trustee of two other charities. And I think it's absolutely one of the pieces of advice I would give to people wanting to get into the charity sector, do some volunteering. It doesn't have to necessarily be volunteering at the... at the cause that you want to work with and also think really broad about volunteering because you might do far more of that sort of work than you think and also be a trustee. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Julie: It's great, you learn a huge amount as well as being able to hopefully give back to the charity you're a trustee of as well. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. and that that value that comes from being a trustee, I mean, for you as a obviously a chief executive today, y yeah, to talk a little bit about what you think that va the you know, the value of the trustee roles has brought to to you and your position. Julie: Yeah, so I think very specifically in one of the charities I'm a trustee of, when I met the CEO, I said that I thought that, you know, one of the things I could bring is I know what it's like being charity CEO, and it's really lonely. So that I could, you know, support her in, you know, going through that. I think also it teaches me a lot of CEOs, and there are obviously lots of different ways of doing things. that you have different ways of interacting with your ward, none of them good or bad, just different. And I think also, this is absolutely not a reflection on that CEO that I'm talking about at all. She doesn't do this, but sometimes I'm more aware of when I'm possibly a bit stropier with my trustees than I really need to be. So yeah. Adam Stacey: Sure. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. and I think, yeah, we'll probably keep keep keep coming back to that power of power of volunteer and power and trustee shit through the through the conversation. But as you sort of made your way through the charity sector to where where you are now, as well as obviously the you know, the trustee roles and the and the volunteering, were there were other things that yeah, supported you and helped you to make that you know, the well the the the the journey from from volunteer to to chief exec. Yeah. Julie: Yeah, so I think... I was actually really lucky at Save the Children. I worked with two really great senior leaders, Nick Wilkie and Ginny Lunn. And I'd stopped being a managing director and then went in as a very junior volunteer, which they said afterwards that had done me a lot of good in the organisation, which had passed me by. I didn't see that at all. I was just delighted to be there. But I think because I'd come with those skills, they were really helpful in identifying them and thinking of ways in which I could use them for their benefit. This wasn't for me, absolutely, for the organization's benefit. So one of the things that I did quite early on as a volunteer, actually, was I was also working on the contract negotiation with the suppliers for that program that I was data inputting for because I had experience in commercial contracts. So I really closely with the legal council at Save the Children. And so that was really helpful in my understanding the role of governance in a legal sense in the charity sector. And I absolutely can negotiate an IP clause. And I think that's really helpful because sometimes a boilerplate contract has an IP clause in that if you're not careful, involves you giving away your IP. I'm not answering the question you asked me Adam, am I? I do this quite a lot, I off down a tangent. Adam Stacey: That's the beauty of the podcast. We love the tangents. Don't worry, Julie. Yeah, no, Julie: I'm sorry. Adam Stacey: that's that's great. I I think you are answering the question because I w what what you have is that exposure, you know, in in in the role Julie: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, yes. Adam Stacey: that that that gives you all of these different dimensions and plays on your skill set, and and people that seeing that in you and and giving you opportunity. Julie: Yes, I think so. I think the one, the thing that people absolutely did recognise me in me was my passion for getting children out of poverty, I think, and that not just material poverty, but also poverty of expectation. And I think that has really driven me and I think there are lots of different ways of doing it. And a lot of it is about It's strength based, which is very much something that we did at Power2, which is recognizing what the children and young people can do, not what they can't do. So, you know, talking about disadvantage is in itself a deficit term, but try and make it into an asset based response as much as possible. So, yes, I think you're right. I think they did recognize my passion and my drive. And I think the other thing is as well, I really like the stuff. I'm lucky because, you know, small charity CEO, you do a lot of the stuff, but I really like to get stuck in and get involved and pick up a piece of work if it needs doing. mean, my team might say I get stuck in a bit too much and, you know, I don't need to say I'd like to stay in, you know, I'd like to get this train, please. But, you know, I think I like doing the, I'm also de facto director of impact. and evaluation at Power2, which I sort of taught myself with the help of some external pro bono work when I started there and I love it. But I think the way that my brain works is I really like to get stuck into the detail and work out exactly what works and what levers to pull. So that as well as, you know, loving to be able to demonstrate what great impact. So I think that's done me quite a lot of good as well to like to do the stuff. Adam Stacey: Yes, absolutely. Julie: I think at Save the Children they were very confident that I did not think that any of the work I was doing was beneath me and I absolutely didn't and I've never thought that. Adam Stacey: No, no, indeed. And that, like you say, will come down to that. and that how Julie: Yes, no. Adam Stacey: how how do you then strike that balance in a chief executive role then between 'cause you you start to start to talk a little bit about that between, you being down in the particularly in a small organization where you clearly, you know, it is to a degree it is or I mean, I still think you get this in bigger organ but all hands on deck type approach. Julie: Yeah. Adam Stacey: Yeah, how how do you strike that balance between being down in the detail and and and the bigger picture, the strategic strategic side of the work that needs to be done? Julie: I actually don't think, I think that is a really hard balance to strike and I don't think I've. Adam Stacey: It's work in progress. Julie: And I think but I think it's partly because again coming back to what it's like for small charities You know, we don't have enough people to do the stuff because we don't have enough unrestricted funding to hire the people to do the stuff and I've got you know colleagues who absolutely You know do lots more than their job title and job description says as well I do actually think it's easier to be CEO of a bigger charity because I think you have a big team of people who are doing the stuff and so I mean, I work a lot, I guess, and I'm always thinking about work and I love my job, as perhaps I've mentioned, so I'm really happy to be always thinking about work, but I am always thinking about work. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And tell us a little bit more about Power Two and and and the work and then we'll we'll hear more about that yeah, I guess that transition into the chief executive role. Yeah. Julie: Yes, so we are a children and young people's charity. work with children and young people who are living in poverty, have social, emotional, mental health needs, may have special education needs and disabilities, are disengaged from school and learning, may be care experienced, may be at risk of child criminal exploitation, increasingly working with a lot of young people who have got EBSNA, emotionally based school non-attendance. So that's very different to normal truancy. It's young people who want to be at school but are just too anxious. And of course, all of those criteria are interlinked. They're multiple and intersecting challenges that the young people that we work with have. We work with about 1,200 a year. And we have our flagship group program is where eight young is called Teens and Toddlers. And it's where eight young people from those backgrounds, spend 16 weeks supporting a toddler one-to-one in local nursery with accompanying reflective sessions run by our program staff. It's completely transformative. It's unique. don't think there's often you can say a charity program is unique. It's really great for lots of reasons. It gives young people who don't typically get a put into position of responsibility, position of responsibility, and it really shows how much they grow when they've got that. It's particularly great for boys because it's really tough to be a boy with toxic masculinity, and in the nursery they can show their soft side. They really develop a strong one-to-one relationship with their toddler, which makes them feel much better about themselves too. We had one young person we worked with who said, I realised that if this little child really values me, why can't I value myself? I think that's so amazing program. And we deliver variations of that or adaptations if you're using charity language, which takes exactly that same model, one of which is called Power to Thrive, where we have more of a mental health and wellbeing focus in the reflection sessions. One of which is called Power to Advance, which takes what is effectively 16 weeks of work experience and uses that to develop the softer employability skills that you need. And that fits really well with Auntie Burnham's request to have more technical education, because part of Adam Stacey: Yep, yeah. Julie: that is about much more intensive early work experience. And one of which is called Power to Progress, which is where young people in year eight in a secondary school mentor children in year six in a feeder primary, Adam Stacey: Right. Julie: through that transition to secondary, because that's where a lot of young people lose their way. Adam Stacey: Yes, yes, yeah. Julie: And then we also, so we were delivering teens, we were only delivering teens and toddlers up until lockdown. And then we couldn't. deliver a group programme for obvious reasons, but we knew that our young people still needed our help. So we pivoted really quickly to doing one-to-one work and a programme called Power to Rediscover, which was originally targeted at young people who needed support to improve their wellbeing and re-engage with school and learning post lockdown. Naively, we thought we'd just have to deliver that for 10 weeks in September 2020 and then the world would be back to normal. But Adam Stacey: Yeah, sure. Julie: yeah, here we are now and children and young people are still absolutely experiencing the negative effects of COVID lockdown. So that's Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Julie: now a key part of our work and we either deliver it in schools as our own programme or we deliver it for local authorities through commissions where we may be commissioned for up to three years to deliver support to young people who are care experienced or involved in the criminal justice sector or need support because their school absence levels are high Adam Stacey: Yeah. Julie: or their families need support as well. And one of the key things that we do is we will go into the home to deliver and not Adam Stacey: Yeah. Julie: all charities or organisations who do our work will do that. So I think that gives us a point Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yeah. Julie: of difference as well. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And a a and has the work grown then over the last few yeah, I I was as you were beginning before before you mentioned the pandemic, I was thinking these are all issues that were, I guess, elevated because of the pandemic and and maybe become a feel anyway, a little bit more mainstream in the people's awareness of them. Julie: Yeah. Adam Stacey: has has that led to a growth in, you know, service demand over the last few years? Julie: Absolutely and with our own programmes that we deliver in schools we can't keep up with demand partly because we actually haven't got the funding to do it and that's always one of the challenges isn't it again in the charity sector in general but particularly in a small charity you can't keep up with the work that you know will deliver the outcome because you haven't got the funding to deliver it but also a lot of local authority commissions and we're now doing a lot more with local authorities on care experience so that's young people. age 16 to 25 and we support them with their wellbeing, with their independent living skills, with their employability skills. One of the things I always like to quote about independent living skills for young people who care experienced is the current average age for somebody leaving the family home if they've grown up in a family is 24. And yet care experience, young people are out on their own age 16. It's shocking. Adam Stacey: Yeah, indeed. And yeah, it's so difficult to be to to get your head around as to how people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Julie: Yeah, completely. Adam Stacey: yeah, indeed. And I guess for you as an organization, moving through that time to go from, you know, what I'm hearing is go from what sort of one programme to then a suite of suite of programs, and like you say, not still not being able to meet meet demand. I mean, Julie: So. Adam Stacey: is that does that partly relate back? I mean, you said this you you said at the start of the conversation, it is difficult to be it's difficult being a CEO of a of a small organization and and and keeping up with at moment, is that I guess the this gap between funding and and and demand? Julie: Absolutely, absolutely. you know, our outcomes are really great, really, really strong on lots of different dimensions. We could deliver the Teens and Toddlers program in every school in England and Wales, and we'd get great outcomes for those young people if we had the funding to do it. We we could Adam Stacey: Yes, yeah. Julie: scale up. absolutely know we've got the organisational strength and model to be able to deliver it. Just need the funding. So is any philanthropist out there who'd like to? make a huge difference to the lives of a lot of young people. Please get in touch with me. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Well we we will for certain make sure that a a link through to the website is on the here is i is in the show notes. so that people can yeah, absolutely follow follow follow that through. and I guess there might be other opportunities for people to support w with Power2 as well, if that you know, this might be the first time that they've be hearing hearing about you. Is i is there other ways that people can get get involved with the with the organisation? Julie: Yes, so it's a we don't have a volunteer model. We we use employed staff to deliver our programs and there's lots of solid reasons for that, which I won't I won't bore you with. But we're always happy to talk to people who want to talk about how they can get involved. for example, and especially when you think about, you know, we're we don't have enough people to do the stuff. So we've got a corporate partner who's helping us to develop our induction pack for new starters at the moment because our HR lead doesn't have enough time to do it. So that sort of work is always really valuable. From our office in Ashton Underline, we've got a room called Cat's Wardrobe, which is actually set up in memory of a young care experienced person in the area who very sadly died last year. And it's really good quality secondhand clothing that young people in the care system can come and get what they need for just for life, but also if they need to go for interviews. We're developing that room to include a room where we can provide support as well, know, one-to-one mentoring and wellbeing support. And we have funding from a local organisation who's going to refit the rooms. sorry, they're not going to give us the funding, they're actually going to do the refit. We are at the moment looking for somebody to do some plastering because that organisation can't do the plastering. So there's always lots of little opportunities and it's about thinking through what we need Adam Stacey: Yes. Julie: to do. Adam Stacey: Yeah, perfect. Or well, like I say, we'll make sure that there's links, links through the website so people can find you as they're listening, listen listening to the show. and I guess I'm really interested in a couple of other things that you've that you've mentioned through there. Actually you said that Pantu was very much on the radar. You know, you you tried to become the chief executive Julie: Bye. Adam Stacey: before you did become the chief executive. Yeah. And and I guess I'm always interested into how people have found that transition from you know, from a previous role into suddenly being the CEO of a of an organisation. What what that's looking Julie: Yes, so I don't know. I got asked this question in an interview once about whether you should treat people who work for a charity different to people who work for a corporate if they're your employees. And I said, no, you didn't. You know you shouldn't, which was the wrong answer, it turned out. But I think that was because I was very specifically talking from the experience of where I was currently working, which was corporate organization but we were absolutely very very inclusive and very concerned with people's well-being and you know because we were all about reading children's books you know that that has a lot of benefits too and so and I guess also because I'd been managing director of an organization as well I think the things that are most surprising and although I absolutely you know know this thing that I'm about to say and so will everybody who's listening to you it's still incredibly surprising that something where you've got really great evidence of outcomes and but you don't have the funding can't happen you know that that wouldn't happen in the commercial sector you know you just have a market and the market would would fund itself and you there are some big and good charities that have gone under over the past few years just because of that. So what else. It's nice not to have to show a profit to just obviously have a surplus to reinvest but not have to show a profit. I think as well it's the whole management structure of a charity is really different. So I'm really lucky I've got a great board of trustees and a really phenomenal chair in Mike Francis. But to have to, you know, effectively be line managed by a group of people who are themselves volunteers that sit outside and aren't involved in the day to day, obviously Adam Stacey: Yeah. Julie: in a corporate role, although you're responsible to shareholders, as long as you're actually delivering the goods, they they're much less bothered. So that's a change, although I do think, I do see my trustees, my board's role as, know, and especially my chair, you know, we're standing shoulder to shoulder in the trenches together to deliver the charity strategy and thus the outcomes. And I guess that stands me in good stead in my trustee roles as well. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. And being surrounded by good people, whether it's at trustee level or or part of your senior leadership team, is i is vital, isn't it? So they continue in that, you know, strong outcomes and the delivery, delivery of the organisation. Julie: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, yeah, and it all rests on people, especially when you haven't got enough people to do the stuff. Sorry, I talk about the stuff quite a lot. You know, you do run on goodwill. And I think it's, I think if you're wanting to enter the charity sector, I do think you need to be fully aware, one needs to be fully aware that you're joining it for different reasons than financial reward and possibly career recognition as well. You're joining it because you are purpose driven, but there are challenges and annoyances that come with that. One of the senior management team at one of the charities where I'm a CEO says, it's hard, but hard is what we've chosen. And I think that's a perfect summing up of the charity sector. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. But you know, plenty of people, like you say, make that transition and and and thrive Julie: It's, yeah. Adam Stacey: because they come with that I I yeah, I guess it it takes an empathy, doesn't it, to work in the it w work in the in the sector and a and a and a resilience at times, like you like you say. But when you can see the impact and the outcome that you know, the difference that whether that's you whether it's a based in an office or out on the front front line of delivery of service, that you can see that impact and and the difference that it's making on on, you know. i individuals' lives. There, that that that that's that I guess you come back to that motivation, that driving force. Julie: That's absolutely, absolutely. And you know, we still get emails from people that we worked with 10 years ago talking about what a difference our work made for them. Something come back and work for us. You know, we've got, we've got huge amounts of lived experience in the organization. All of the senior management team, including me, have lived experience with the issues we address. And, and I think about 70 % of the team in general, we've got some service users. previous service users in our team, but also on our board. And we're really inclusive in our recruitment processes. So that comes through as well, I think, and I think that makes it. I do think you actually have a responsibility as a charity to be that sort of recruiter, but it makes a huge difference to the organization and its feel as well, because we sort of live and breathe what we do and why we do it and what a difference it makes. Adam Stacey: real testament to you to you as an organization that yeah that like say that people that have been on the receiving end of a services then want to come and you know come come and work within the organization as as as well. And you said earlier in the conversation you know when you're applying you know I'm just thinking about people that have been listening to this that are you know thinking about potentially making that transition into into the sector. Obviously we talked about the importance of or you know the the the advantage of volunteering and trustee roles. Yeah y you also said about i y you learned there was a different way of applying for jobs within the charity world compared to the commercial commercial sector. Would you be able to I get guess give a bit of insight or unpack a bit of that of your your learning from yeah on that side. Julie: Yeah, sure. So I guess, and I think this is possibly more widely known than I had appreciated. But I think, you know, when they say they want, when the application say they want a CV and a personal statement, saying how you fit the role requirement, they really mean that. And so you have to do really detailed bullets rather than what I was doing, which was I'm really passionate about. this kind of work, would love the job. So still do say that, but well, I don't reply for jobs anymore. so I think, think really understand what it is you need to be responded to. And certainly we, and I'm sure a lot of charity HR departments too, would explain that if somebody asked. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Julie: If somebody, we always say, please provide a personal statement. If somebody were to say to us, what do you mean by that? We would be very happy to explain. I think when you get to a more senior level, I guess particularly if you're transferring across from the private sector, but not necessarily at a really senior level, so middle management level, do always, always, always try to get on the books of a recruitment agency because I think they are really helpful in First of all, doing the job for you if what they've got to do is come up with a short list, but also in explaining to you what it is that they think is attractive in you for this role. And so to talk about that more. And, you know, obviously it's quid pro quo because it's great for recruitment agencies to have good candidates on their books. But I think as soon as I got to that level, it was easier for me in that application process to understand exactly what it was. I should be saying. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, there's a there's a there's a I guess there's a transparency there, isn't there, in it in the you know, being able to have that when there's a recruitment, I mean obviously as I talk as a recruiter, yeah, that's someone in between that can, you know, is talking with the client and also with the candidate to help hold that together. But I think also for people, you know, going through recruitment processes that aren't being handled by recruiters, I think in the sector people are like you say, they're really open. Like you would be if someone phoned up and said, Well, what do you in the cover letter? You know, really, yeah, you know, having those stuff Julie: And we also went for applicants that we shortlisted, we actually send them the questions in advance as well because Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Julie: we're not looking for how good people are at being interviewed, we're looking for whether they'll be able to do the job, so that's really important. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's a yeah, yeah, it's a really yeah, really good development within within recruitment over the last few years that more organisations are are doing that and to give give give people the best opportunity to, you know, demonstrate who they are and what they yeah, what what they can do. Not just, yeah, like you say, how 'cause some people are clearly are are great at interviewing and they might not deliver when they walk through the door and yeah yeah, yeah. Julie: Absolutely. Yeah. Adam Stacey: It's yeah, absolutely. I know that's that that's really good. always these these conversations they just they just fly by when i when i always get blown away by how far the the the time has as has ticked along Julie: I'm Adam Stacey: if i can sort of come into this sort of last question and as you reflect on your career today what's what's one lesson that you've learned possibly learned the hard way that shaped you as a l into the leader that you are today? Julie: Hmm. I think I'm going to choose the hard way. I think I have learned that I probably shouldn't show my heart on my sleeve as much as I did earlier in my career. One of my bosses through my career said to me, and he meant this as a compliment, that you tread on my values at your peril. And that's absolutely true, but I think sometimes I don't always need to show it. And I think I do do that a lot less now. So yeah, I absolutely did learn but I think that was a hard lesson but particularly because Heart on Sleeve is me. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yeah. It's a difficult one, isn't it, when you reflect on that? 'Cause there's also that you y you've got to have that and and clearly there's a motivation for for you as a person as to where you are now and what you're doing. And it it's that passion that is gonna drive and has driven the organisation forward over the last last last few years. Yeah. Julie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess, yeah, yeah, I guess there's a difference between passion and a heart on your sleeve in the way that I'm talking about it. I would never feel bad about demonstrating my passion and I think people would expect me to so but you sometimes Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Julie: you don't need to say that thing that you're Yes. Adam Stacey: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed. Take take a breath at times. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, indeed. Indeed. well Julie, it's been brilliant to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time out to spend and and share with us. Like I said, we'll make sure that you're tagged up and as long as you're happy and obviously links through to the website so people can go find out more about the organisation and and the incredible work that you're doing and and and delivering. Julie: Great, that's really great. Thank you, Adam. That has flown by. It was really great to chat. Thank you for inviting me on.