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The Secret Nazi Files You Were Never Meant to See · The Infographics Show Podcast

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: All right, let's dive into something that, well, it feels
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: a bit like unlocking histories hidden files today, and beyond infographics,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: we're getting into a really fascinating stack of material, stuff
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: that's only become fully accessible relatively recently. We're talking records
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: from the Nazi era and maybe even more importantly, what
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: happened after the war. Yeah, it's this complex web intelligence
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: secrets and some really surprising post war activities revealed in
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: these pages.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Exactly. We've been exploring millions and millions of pages, mostly
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: US Army, intelligence and CIA records, stuff that just wasn't
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: completely available until the last few years, really building on
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: earlier efforts. They definitely shed new light on wartime events,
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: but I agree, maybe the more compelling part is what
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: they tell us about the post war fate of certain
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: figures and the choices, often really difficult choice intelligence agencies
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: were making as the Cold War started heating up. So
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: we're really going to look at some of the most
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: well striking insights these documents offer, pushing us firmly beyond infographics,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: like you said, towards the more nuanced reality.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: And the thing is, what makes this stuff so valuable
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: is that it's often raw intelligence, right, interrogation transcripts, internal memos,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: stuff that wasn't filtered for public consumption back then. It
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: gives you this unique, sometimes kind of messy, but very
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: real look at history as it was unfolding for the
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: people on the ground.
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  Speaker 2: Right, I mean think about it. For decades, millions of
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: these records were just locked away. It took things like
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: the nineteen ninety eight Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act and
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: places like the National Archives working hard to really pry
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: them open. And a huge chunk, especially from the Army's
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Investigative Records Repository, the URR, that only came out after
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: the initial releases.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it wasn't like flipping a switch, was it.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: You had technical hurdles, old microfilm, weird optical discs.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Plus the agencies themselves kind of changed how they interpreted disclosure.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Over time, exactly, more liberal interpretations developed. So it really
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: took until well into the twenty first century for thousands
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: and thousands of these pages to actually see the light
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  Speaker 2: of day.
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  Speaker 1: What did they actually reveal? What's the new evidence?
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Well, it's on so many fronts, war crimes obviously, the
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: search for war criminals, how they were provocuted or not,
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  Speaker 2: how they escaped, and maybe the most disturbing part, instances
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: where Allied agencies actually protected or even used some of
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: these individuals, you know, because of Cold.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: War priorities using former Nazis.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, it doesn't paint one simple picture, but when you
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: layer this new information onto what we already knew, it
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: adds critical, sometimes pretty shocking pieces to the puzzle.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, So digging into these pages, who are some of
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: the key figures that pop up? Do we get new
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: glimpses or confirmation of old mysteries?
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: You get scattered bits like confirmation from Trottele Young Hitler
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: secretary about details of the final days in the Buk
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: bunker or Martin Borman's death. Then there are figures who
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: just remain elusive, like Gestapo chief Heinrich Muller never found
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: and these records, well, they add more fuel to those
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: post war rumors about him working for the Soviets or
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: the West or disappearing completely.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Right, the Mueller mystery continues. But one thread that really
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: stands out I thought was Adolf Eichman, you know, central
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: to the Holocaust. What did these records add to his story?
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: They show incredibly early intelligence tying him directly to the
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: camps to slave labor. The US Army Counter Intelligence Corps,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: the CIIC, they recognized his significance very early on. We're
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: talking nineteen forty.
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  Speaker 1: Six, nineteen forty six, that early Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Records show they were actually requesting his apprehension back then,
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: so they.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Knew he was a major player that early yeah. And
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: yet he wasn't caught for what another decade and.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: A half exactly, despite renewed efforts, interrogations confirming he was alive,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: he just managed to evade detection for years. The records
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  Speaker 2: even mentioned him living under a pseudonym, you know, Otto
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Hennen or the Chicken.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Farmer, the chicken Farmer, right.
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  Speaker 2: But what's really striking are US records from nineteen fifty two.
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  Speaker 2: They basically indicate that, yeah, if they found him, they'd
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  Speaker 2: pass on the information, but they wouldn't take an active
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: role in apprehending him.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Wow, so hands off by fifty two.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Seems like it, And the documents show all these conflicting
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: rumors about where he might be. It highlights the sheer
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: confusion around his escape before you know, the Israelis famously
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: captured him later on.
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  Speaker 1: That detail about the US not taking an active role
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  Speaker 1: in fifty two. That's pretty telling, isn't it About shifting priorities.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: It really is. It hints that things were already changing.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: And speaking of surprising priorities, this material reveals something really
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  Speaker 2: eye opening about how US intelligence handled former Gestapo officers
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  Speaker 2: right after the war.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, this is one of the parts that absolutely
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  Speaker 1: stopped me in my tracks when I was reading through this.
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  Speaker 1: We think of them hunting these guys down, but something
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: else started happening. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: Initially sure they were seen as security threats, but surprisingly
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: quickly a CiCe they started actively using them for intelligence.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Using Gestapo officers, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: As sources on everything from you know, emerging German right
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: wing movements to ironically communist organizations.
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  Speaker 1: So they went from wanted men to assets Intelligen's assets.
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  Speaker 2: In quite a few cases. Yes, Take a guy named
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: Franz Mildner, former Gestapo officer in Linz. The records show
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  Speaker 2: him actively misleading US authorities about his past. He even
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: falsely claimed he'd like left fifteen thousand Jews in Vienna untouched,
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  Speaker 2: just made.
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  Speaker 1: It up, but the records contradicted this.
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  Speaker 2: There was other evidence, oh damningly so evidence from his
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  Speaker 2: own associates and even from Rudel Huss, you know, the
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  Speaker 2: commandant of Auschwitz. During his Nuremberg testimony, Huss placed Mildner
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  Speaker 2: at Auschwitz, said he was showing interest in the gas
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  Speaker 2: chambers while deporting Jews from Catawais this wasn't some low
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: level guy. He was involved in mass murder.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So what happened to him? Did the Allies prosecute him?
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  Speaker 2: Well, the British and the Danes were interested in extraditing him,
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  Speaker 2: questioning him for serious primes, But the CIC records indicated
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: he escaped US custody in August nineteen forty six.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: He escaped or was let go.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: The record says escaped, although confusingly, another source says he
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: was held until forty nine. Either way, he wasn't handed
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  Speaker 2: over for prosecution despite clear international interest.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: That raises serious coognaes. Doesn't it about US priorities? Maybe
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: leniency or just chaos.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: It definitely does, or maybe just chaotic record keeping back then.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: But the documents detail other specific instances that really underline
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: this pattern.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Like Ougen Fisher and Anton Mahler. I remember those.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Names exactly, former Gestapo counter sabotage experts. They went through
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: denosification proceedings that allied process to try and hold former
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: Nazis accountable.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Right remove them from influence.
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  Speaker 2: But after those proceedings both became CIC informants. They were
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: seen as valuable for their contacts, their experience, even while
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: being flagged as security risks.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: A walking contradiction, and the detail about Maler is well,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: it's extraordinary.
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  Speaker 2: It really is.
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  Speaker 1: So.
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  Speaker 2: Fisher and Mahler fled Munich because they were about to
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: be sentenced in West Germany based on those denotification findings.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, so they're fugitives from German justice.
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  Speaker 2: But the CIC records contain a handwritten note from a
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: special agent. It says Mahler went back to work for
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: the CIC just days after his disappearance was noted.
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  Speaker 1: Wait, he fled sentencing and immediately went back onto the
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: US payroll.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: That's what the record suggests. I mean, it got so
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  Speaker 2: blatant that skeptical West German police actually started surveilling the
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: local CIC headquarters.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: They suspected the US was hiding him.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: They suspected the US was secretly employing these guys who
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: were supposed to be facing justice. It just starkly illustrates
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: these complex, often contradictory actions taken in the early Cold War.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: You know, the immediate strategic need for intel seemed to
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: just overwrite accountability for past atrocities in way too many cases.
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  Speaker 1: And this theme former Nazis trying to regroup, finding influence
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  Speaker 1: and how intelligent agencies dealt with them. That shows up
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: in politics too, right, not just intelligence.
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  Speaker 2: Gathered absolutely these newly available files exposed significant details about
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: post war right wing political movements in Germany in Austria
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  Speaker 2: and how Allied intelligence monitored them and sometimes yeah, interacted
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  Speaker 2: with them in surprising ways.
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  Speaker 1: So was the Bruderschaft in Germany Brotherhood.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, this was a secret group late forties early fifties
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  Speaker 2: made up of former high ranking officials officers, and their
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: vision was well, it was pretty wild. They imagined a
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: United Europe, maybe neutral, maybe even allied with the USSR,
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  Speaker 2: independent of the.
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  Speaker 1: US WOW, and the CIC was watching them.
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  Speaker 2: Thousands of pages of surveillance detailed in these files. It
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: revealed their internal fights, but also some really disturbing links.
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  Speaker 1: And one of the leaders his past was particularly chilling.
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  Speaker 2: Alfred frankop Gris SS colonel. Records show he witnessed atrocities
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  Speaker 2: like the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and apparently even marveled at
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  Speaker 2: Auschwitz's efficiency iciency horrifying, and the documents show him apparently
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: flirting with contacts in East Germany with the Soviets, which
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: understandably made others in his group very uncomfortable given his
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  Speaker 2: Communist leanings. The whole thing eventually fell apart amidst infighting.
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  Speaker 1: And then in Austria there was Despin the Spider.
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  Speaker 2: Right, another association of former Nazis. They were pushing for
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  Speaker 2: political rehabilitation, a Pan German agenda, and what's incredible is
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  Speaker 2: that these records show it was actually formed inside a
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  Speaker 2: US detention.
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  Speaker 1: Camp, inside a US camp holding thousands.
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  Speaker 2: Of Nazis, yeah, holding about twelve thousand. This group then
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  Speaker 2: linked up with a political party, the vdu It was
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  Speaker 2: explicitly created to capture the former Nazi vote because large
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  Speaker 2: numbers had been amnestied in nineteen forty eight.
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  Speaker 1: So straight from US to attention to forming political parties
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  Speaker 1: aimed at x Nazis.
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  Speaker 2: Ses essentially yes, and the documents show the CIC was
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: actively monitoring the vdu its leaders, but interestingly they also
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: funded an anti VDU press campaign.
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  Speaker 1: They funded an anti VDU campaign.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, coordinated it with the World Jewish Congress, apparently while
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: very carefully keeping their own role completely hidden. It's another
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  Speaker 2: example of Allied intelligence actively and often convertly, trying to
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: shape that post war political landscape, trying to counter extremist resurgence.
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  Speaker 2: Even if the methods were let's say, complex.
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  Speaker 1: It's fascinating complex stuff. And look, if you're finding these
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: insights into the hidden corners of post war history as
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: eye opening as we are, please do consider giving Beyond
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Infographics a five star rating wherever you get your podcasts.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: It really helps other people discover these deep dives.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for that. Now, moving to perhaps the most
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: extensive and frankly pretty troubling revelations in this material, it
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: concerns the relationships Allied intelligence developed with certain Ukrainian nationalist organizations,
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  Speaker 2: particularly factions of the OUN right.
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  Speaker 1: These records are incredibly detailed, aren't they covering interactions over.
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  Speaker 2: Decades, thousands and thousands of pages.
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  Speaker 1: And they don't exactly shy away from confirming the OUN's
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: very violent history, not at all.
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  Speaker 2: They document the radical stance, you know, favoring an ethnically
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: homogeneous Ukraine, the history of violence, including assassinating a Polish minister.
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  Speaker 1: Before the war, and the accounts from the war itself. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: contained these documents, they're deeply disturbing.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, they include accounts from OUNB leaders like Yaroslav Spetsko
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  Speaker 2: expressing support for the quote destruction of Jews and wanting
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: to bring quote German methods of exterminating jury to Ukraine.
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  Speaker 2: There are accounts detailing Bandera guerrillas killing thousands of Jews,
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  Speaker 2: hacking polls to pieces. One diary entry we saw describe
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Bandarist's viewing finding a Jew as a prize catch and
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: literally slashing them to pieces. It's brutal material to read,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: just horrific.
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  Speaker 1: And despite that history, figures like step On Bandera and
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Michael Livitt, they became key figures in the Ukrainian displaced
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: persons camps after the war. Yeah, and Allied intelligence actively
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: sought them.
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  Speaker 2: Out, precisely because as their strong anti Soviet stance made
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: them potentially valuable assets in the emerging Cold War. Even
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: with that background, Even with that background, yeah, Now, the
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: records do show the US, especially the CIA and State Department,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: had serious reservations about working with Bandera himself. They saw
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: him as politically outdated, unreliable, noted he was a convicted assassin.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: So ultimately, the US largely decided against active collaborations, sometimes
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: just keeping an agent nearby to watch him.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: But British Intelligence six they didn't share those reservations.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: No, the records show I six went ahead. They collaborated
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: with Bendera, funded and trained his agents for operations inside Ukraine,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: even disregarding US objections.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, so the Brits worked with Bandera. Who did the
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: US focus on them?
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: They focused on the friniak Lebed group. They were viewed
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: as maybe more moderate or at least having better connections
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: to the anti Soviet underground inside Ukraine.
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  Speaker 1: And what did the CIA's own files say about Libed
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: their handler notes?
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  Speaker 2: The notes are incredibly blunt and describe him as a
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: cunning character. They explicitly mention his quote relations with the
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Gestapo in Gestapo training. They label him a very ruthless operator.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: One note flatly stated neither party, Bendera or Libed is
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Lily White.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Wow, Lily, why is putting it mildly given what we
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: just heard?
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Exactly? Yet this very ruthless operator with acknowledged Gestapo ties
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: became a significant US asset for decades in Cold War
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: operations against the Soviets, and.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: The consequences of that compromise. They became really star years later,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: didn't they.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, Fast forward to the nineteen eighties, the Department
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: of Justice starts investigating Lebed because of his wartime activities,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: and what happens. The CIA reportedly shielded him. They denied
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: any Nazi connection, portrayed him as a freedom fighter.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Even though their own files contradicted that completely.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: The declassified files make it crystal clear this denial contradicted
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: the intelligence the CIA itself had held on his background
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: for decades. They did it to protect their intelligence program
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: avoid upsetting the Ukrainian emigrate community. He was never deported,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: lived freely in the US until he died. It's just
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: a powerful, deeply uncomfortable illustration of how Cold War priorities
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: led to protecting individuals with horrific wartime records.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: It really is. And you know, going beyond infographics isn't
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: just about digging through these paper trails, is it. Other
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: recent efforts have used technology finding secrets that have been
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: literally hidden since the war.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Ended, absolutely underwater standing tech has been huge. It's uncovered
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: significant wrecks directly tied to Nazi secrets and key wartime events,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: like in Norway's Late Tin they found the hydro ferry
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: sunk in nineteen forty.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Four, the heavy water Fair.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Exactly records from the time, plus samples from barrels they
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: recovered confirm its secret cargo heavy water critical for the
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Nazi atomic bomb program.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: And didn't post war German scientists actually claim that losing
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: that shipment was basically what stopped their reactor efforts.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: They did claim that yes, made it a decisive moment.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Another dramatic discovery was off Western Australia, the res of
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: the German raider Cormoran and the Australian warship HMAS Sydney.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Right, that was a huge mystery for a long time.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: And using the Cormoran captain's own account plus these incredibly
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: detailed scans, you can basically reconstruct the battle. Now.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: So what do they find? How did it happen?
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: It shows the Cormoran brilliantly disguised as just a harmless
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: merchant ship, but it was packed with concealed high tech
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: weapons hydraulic anti aircraft guns that popped up hidden torpedo tubes,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: the works. It lured HMAS Sydney in really close, a
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: perfect trap. Then it unleached this surprising firepower devastating effect,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: sank the cruiser. Almost everyone on the Sydney was lost.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: The Cormoran itself was mortally wounded in the fight and
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: sank later. Just a masterclass in deception and a terrible tragedy.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: And they even found that unfinished German aircraft carrier.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Didn't they The graft Zeppelin Yeah in the Baltic Sea,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: scuttled by the Germans, then the Soviets captured it, used
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: it as a target ship. The scans actually show the
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: damage from their weapons testing.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Wow. And the stealth you boat.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: U four eighty found in the English Channel, often called
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: the first stealth.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Submarine because of that coating exactly.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: The scans revealed its secret. This rubber coating designed to
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: absorb sonar make it basically invisible to detection methods of
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: the time. Yet despite that cutting edge tech, it was
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: ultimately sunk by a secret Allied minefield. It didn't know
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: it was there.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Wow. So okay, pulling back and looking at all of this,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, from the millions of pages of these documents
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: revealing the tangled web of post war intelligence. The alliance is,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the compromises, to the actual physical secrets being uncovered underwater
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: with new tech. It truly does take us beyond infographics,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't it. It reveals layer after layer of this incredibly complex,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: often really uncomfortable history that we're still piecing together.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, these materials they just challenge the simple narratives we
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: might have learned. They show how that urgent pursuit of
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: intelligence of national security right after the war, how it
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: led to significant and yeah, often morally troubling alliances and
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: compromises using individuals with deeply disturbing pass Providing these unfiltered accounts,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: it adds crucial, sometimes very difficult detail to how we
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: understand that pivotal era.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: And it just underscores how historical truths can stay hidden
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: for decades, yeah right, waiting for declassification, waiting for technology,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: or just waiting for the right researcher to connect the dots.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: It really makes you wonder what other critical insights are
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: still locked away in archives somewhere, or waiting to be
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: discovered in completely unexpected places like the bottom of a lake.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's a powerful reminder isn't it that history is
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: rarely a straight line, and the shadows of the past,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: they can extend in surprising and sometimes very unsettling directions
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: for a very very long time.