Latest / 1 to 100 / E25: The Plan for Rivo with Stuart Chaney

Transcript

E25: The Plan for Rivo with Stuart Chaney · 1 to 100

0:00
They're doing some, yeah, they're doing some interesting
0:01
stuff with the AI blocks that you can drop in now.
0:05
It's going to be. Yeah, I think.
0:06
Yeah, you think? You think they're gone?
0:09
Yeah, like. I wouldn't start a theme
0:13
business. Right now, like, yeah, I don't
0:15
think that well, I definitely, definitely would not be the
0:17
first business I start. But I will say like I still
0:20
think the a lot of it comes down to price point, right?
0:22
Like how much will it do for you without you having to think
0:26
about it? And what how much does that
0:28
cost? And and if you have enough
0:30
people willing to pay for that basically like starting point
0:33
and the starting point is meaningfully better than 0, then
0:37
I think there's still some value there.
0:39
I just think Shopify is going to be able to do anything that is
0:42
like, and I don't, I don't think the behavior of people is going
0:47
to be like, I'm going to go look for the theme and like do this
0:50
calculation. I think the expectation is going
0:53
to be when you buy Shopify. I could be able to just prompt
0:57
Shopify to make the little section that I want.
1:00
I'm not going to make a full like theme decision because like
1:02
it has like this one widget or something.
1:06
And you can see they're making things more like Lego blocks,
1:09
which is how you scale up with any agentic coding is need to
1:13
templatize things and they're doing that aggressively it seems
1:16
now. So that's going to be big.
1:20
All right, still, do you want to just dive in?
1:24
What do we? Yeah, dude, throw whatever you
1:26
want. I'm an open book.
1:28
You're an open book. What's What's the?
1:32
Question is that is that we used to be in the same Hampton group
1:36
and he like he's like, oh, sorry, my business is scaling
1:38
too fast. I can't come to these calls
1:40
anymore. It's a ball or wait to drop out.
1:42
Yeah, better. Than that I can't afford more
1:46
way. Of driving.
1:49
Oh my God, that's so funny. OK, sue you.
1:53
You OK, First of all, your claim online, it's like a fine, I'm
2:00
sure it's true, but it's not particularly useful, right?
2:04
It's like charge fair prices and then grow and become like a big
2:10
like, OK, you know, like that's like impossible to disagree
2:15
with, right? Like it's like impossible to
2:18
disagree with claim. So the the actual question
2:22
underneath that is like what is the end state from which you are
2:26
working backwards to have that strategy?
2:30
Yeah, and this is worth saying like, and this is the nice thing
2:34
about SAS as well. We've got, you know, all of us
2:37
on here right now. You can do it so many different
2:39
ways. You can raise 45,000,000, you
2:42
can bootstrap seed strap, whatever you want to do.
2:44
Please do not take any of my advice because my situation is
2:48
going to be very different to everybody else's.
2:50
So like, you know, look back on mine.
2:53
I've been shipping software like doing the majority of coding
2:57
myself for the last 20 years, coming up to right now bootstrap
3:03
Revo from another Shopify apps company that does, you know, 4
3:07
million ish. So everything that that I say
3:11
is, you know, purely due to my circumstances.
3:15
And please don't take any advice to it at all.
3:17
It's just saying what what we're trying to do.
3:22
But yeah, to I think you said, Hey, what's the plan?
3:24
The 50 And I was like, I don't even know if the 50 is there.
3:28
Like it really is dependent on the time, right?
3:30
If we were back in 2021, I'd be like, dude, we're fucking
3:33
scaling to the moon. You know, why can't, why, why
3:36
can't we make this a billion dollar company?
3:39
But the reality of the situation is, and if you look around and
3:43
going back to the convoy you were talking about with Taylor,
3:46
who's in with Sean and the rest of them, it's a time, it's a
3:50
time problem. And the time is not growing
3:55
anywhere near the supply. So supply is rocketed.
3:59
I know there's a lot of vibe code and stuff in there and you
4:01
can, you know, it is what it is, but the actual demand is what
4:06
is, let's call it stagnant or slightly rising, nowhere near
4:10
like at Houston. So that's where we are today.
4:14
And honestly, like you. Your roster of clients already
4:17
is pretty impressive. So if you think about that and
4:20
like where where you've gotten with your business to this
4:23
point, then yeah, it's like the, I mean, I have the same problem
4:26
with no, it's like we already work with most of the like not
4:30
maybe not most, but like a large percentage of the really good
4:33
customers out there. There's only so much you can do
4:36
there without raising prices or. Can I, can I, can I double click
4:42
on that comment actually? And because Stu and I have
4:47
talked about this previously, so I, I, I, I think it would be
4:53
correct to say that like both you and Stu and, and yeah, I
4:59
mean foreplay potentially to already work with a big
5:02
percentage of what I would describe as like the fastest
5:06
growing best Shopify brands. And the consequence of that
5:11
statement is actually directly feeding into the Tam comment
5:15
earlier. And so, yeah, so let's do like
5:20
when you say Tam, what? Like what is your Tam?
5:26
The moment if you say what's our ICP, it's anybody on Shopify
5:29
Plus. So when we first started, I came
5:33
from just PLG App Store, never even ran a demo call till I was
5:38
like 37 years old or something like that.
5:41
Literally just the App Store was the only way we grew 2 +
5:45
1,000,000 installs from the App Store.
5:48
We did the same thing. Then when we started Revo, it's
5:50
like, oh, we're just going to, you know, do the App Store
5:53
thing. We did it and then we hit this
5:55
major ceiling at like $1,000,000 ARR and we just stagnated for
5:59
like 9 months. And the reason was, well,
6:04
everyone in the App Store, your ICP is usually a brand doing
6:09
under 7 figures. That's the major chunk that
6:13
that's in there. So we kind of maxed out that ICP
6:17
for what we needed because we are a retention product.
6:21
No one on the App Store needs retention.
6:24
They need acquisition, especially if you're under 7
6:26
figures, like you're just going to turn, the turn was through
6:29
the roof was crazy. So then who actually needs the
6:32
product? Well, anyone doing 8 figures and
6:35
up is like a great, you know, multi product, which pretty much
6:39
everyone is. That's who our ICP is.
6:43
Then we nailed it down to, well, Shopify Plus.
6:46
There were some features that were restricted on Shopify Plus,
6:49
checkout extensions, things like that.
6:51
So we just leaned in and said, hey, we're Shopify Plus now.
6:55
We're still on the App Store. We have like plans for
6:58
underneath, you know, $49.00 scale plan, but that's all
7:02
self-serve, you know. Is that your?
7:07
Is that your plan to stay on Shopify Plus?
7:12
I don't see us going off of Shopify as a platform, if that's
7:16
what you mean. So like, I'm happy to wait for
7:19
bigger enterprise brands to come to Shopify Plus.
7:22
I think that building outside of Shopify, at least from my
7:27
perspective and the way things are going at the moment, the
7:31
juice isn't worth the squeeze from what I can see.
7:33
I think the end game is everyone ends up on Shopify in one form
7:37
or another. That's the kind of bet that all
7:39
my eggs have been in the Shopify basket for 10 years.
7:42
You know what I mean? So like, I'm fine with doing
7:47
that until we see what happens like.
7:50
So when OK, so if you're staying in Shopify Plus, what is your,
7:56
what do you expect your tab is? Well, there's like 18,000 plus
8:02
stores or something around that number, right?
8:03
Which is probably more like 15,000.
8:06
Yeah, probably more like 9. Now says 4747, what it says
8:13
store lead says 47,000 on Shop 5 plus.
8:15
But I think that's, yeah, I think the actual number is on
8:18
the 20s in terms of like unique. I wish they I wish they would
8:23
tell us actually. And just like, you know, quash
8:26
the the long standing mystery. They they used to publish it.
8:31
The last number I saw was something like 22,000 a couple
8:34
of years ago. Right.
8:37
Yeah, if you take like, you know, $1000 ACV or you know,
8:41
12,000 ACV, you know, $1000 a month and then put that out over
8:46
however many Shopify Plus brands, that's that's where
8:49
you're at. But again, honestly, this is I
8:52
swear to God, this is the honest truth.
8:55
I don't have a goal in mind or like telling we're fully
8:59
bootstrapped with no board. So like, I don't know, just keep
9:03
going until we we Max it out. We have the ARR goals.
9:09
So for this year is 6, which looks like we're going to hit.
9:13
We just passed 5 and then next year past 10 is the goal.
9:18
Would love to double again and go to 12, but there's plenty of
9:22
that there. And how I know there's plenty of
9:24
that there is, you know, I have a fair idea of what our larger
9:29
competitors who again let's talk about the Tam not growing.
9:36
This is the reality of it is that most likely those brands
9:41
for us to get past 10 million are going to have to come from
9:45
our legacy competitors. So that's that's where our focus
9:49
is and we know that that exists. So we know what the goals are
9:52
and how to get there. But again, if we got, if we.
9:56
Just add. So if you add up all your
9:58
competitors, what's the number like?
10:00
What's the end state they are? Top someone and be be surprised
10:04
by I have heard of some of them and I've only seen them from
10:08
exact said being in Hampton. People come through and they
10:12
have to post. Here's how much my business
10:14
makes. We've had a competitor come
10:16
through there who's a very well one that you'd know and he's
10:18
like, holy fuck, you're like 3 times bigger than I thought.
10:22
So there's a lot. Jeremiah probably knows who it
10:25
is. So I know that there's sitting
10:29
there about 40 + 1,000,000 that our competitors have that we
10:35
don't have, that we would very much like.
10:39
Doesn't that scare you like I just did?
10:42
I mean, what? How do you sorry?
10:47
How do you feel about that? I don't want to impose my
10:49
feelings on to you. That was that was not good.
10:52
That was not good. Do you think, do you think
10:55
that's too little or too much? Do you want to know what I am?
11:00
Dude, This is the kind of shit that I get into trouble for.
11:06
Jack, Jack, get this ready to clip through.
11:11
I I, yeah, look man, I I hear that the total pie is 45.
11:18
And then I think to myself with exceptional execution, I win 30%
11:25
of it. OK, that's like XI mean Clavio
11:29
is like an extraordinary outlier having 80% of Shopify, right, or
11:36
whatever ridiculous percentage they have most of the time as
11:41
like a market leader in SAS if you can, like, I mean, anything
11:46
north of 20 is incredible execution.
11:50
OK, Like I, I think we would all roughly agree with that.
11:54
If you disagree, I would, I would love to hear that.
11:56
But I, I that's my, that's where I generally come from.
11:59
I'm like given a particular market, if I can do 20% plus
12:03
penetration, I'm like executing well.
12:08
So then I'm like, OK, I take 50 and I take 20% of 50 or 30% of
12:12
50. I'm like landing between 10 and
12:14
15. That's like next year's number.
12:20
Yeah, I mean, but here's here's the difference, right?
12:25
This is coming for a man who's raised 45.
12:28
So our our expectations of success are totally different.
12:34
They could not be further apart, Right You were.
12:36
No, no, I'm. I'm just asking you, what will
12:39
you do after you hit it? I'm I'm not, I'm not saying,
12:42
dude, I've I've learned my lesson.
12:44
I'm not saying, you know, you don't, you don't, you don't.
12:48
I don't need to learn the same lesson twice.
12:50
I just I wanted them know in it like, you know, like we're
12:54
talking about like, OK, because I trust actually that you'll
12:57
execute on that. And so I kind of just want to
13:00
know you open your eyes on Jan 1st of 2027.
13:02
What are you doing? If we're at 25 mil.
13:07
Dude, even if you're at 12, like you're you're, you're 25%
13:10
penetrated, you know what I mean?
13:12
Like like that's the total effort versus the reward.
13:15
At that point, the calculus becomes totally lopsided for
13:19
your time. Well, we all know how this is,
13:22
right? It's the classic thing where
13:24
when I was 20 and he told me I'd have $1,000,000 business, I
13:27
would have shipped my pants and said like I cannot believe this.
13:31
Then you get to 1,000,000 ago, like oh, why are we not at 5?
13:34
Then you get to 5 and you want to get to 10.
13:35
Like when we get to 25 we'll be wondering why the fuck we're not
13:38
at 50. You know what I mean?
13:40
So like I'll it really depends on the market as well, man.
13:46
Like you take a look at how sales went today versus 2022.
13:52
They could not be more different.
13:54
So I have no idea where it is in like 3 years.
13:58
We're just kind of the, you know, the flea on the back of
14:03
ecom that is hoping that it moves in the right direction and
14:06
we're there to serve the market. I think that The thing is like
14:11
if, if you plateau in this context, there's like if you run
14:17
the business well, if you grow it well, if you run it well, if
14:19
you have good profit margins, there is going to be a buyer for
14:22
this business. And it may not be like the 10X
14:26
multiple thing is not like, like there's not people buying.
14:29
There's not many buyers at that kind of a, a range right now.
14:33
But to like value sell, like let's say you get to a point
14:37
where you have 15,000,000 in ARR with 5 million in EBITDA, you
14:41
can get even a value buyer will pay 20 to $30 million for that
14:44
business, which if you have bootstrapped that and you're
14:48
making money in the process and that's your outcome.
14:50
Like that doesn't sound to me, that doesn't sound so bad.
14:52
I've never had $20 million. But that's not, no, no, sorry.
14:58
I'm not saying that the outcome is bad or that there's not a
15:00
buyer. I'm asking Stu, what does he do?
15:06
So we get to 25, I don't know dude to see what happens then.
15:09
Honestly I'm not even thinking like that.
15:13
I am love. I know, I know.
15:15
This sounds like the written sent down thing and it's what
15:18
everyone says. I am fucking loving what I'm
15:20
doing right now. Like I'm working six days a
15:24
week. I get up at 3:00 AM every
15:26
morning and we're shipping fucking code and we're trying
15:29
to, you know, beat competitors. Maybe when we beat the
15:31
competitor, the edge comes off. We're at 25,000,000 and I look
15:37
for the next thing, who knows? Or maybe I keep going to 100.
15:39
But honestly, I don't even have a plan for that.
15:44
I've been very lucky and gotten lucky in previous businesses
15:49
exit when I was younger and like, I'm just here trying to
15:53
wake up and have a good reason to get up and actually get on
15:59
the laptop and work. You know what I mean?
16:01
It's that's where I'm at, so. Dude, totally.
16:06
I think that's the yeah, that's the part.
16:11
But for what little is worth, that's the part of it that I
16:14
think makes the small town scary is actually like there's nobody
16:20
in their right mind who's running a business because it's
16:23
like the economically rational thing to do.
16:25
It's like totally irrational. I mean, like, you know, you have
16:27
to kind of like love the game. You have to love the the
16:30
building, like you have to love those things too.
16:33
And then yes, upon loving those things, you can drive incredible
16:36
economic outcomes, right? Like, like, yes, that, that that
16:39
happens, but there's that love. Like nobody who's like a founder
16:45
does not love the building aspect.
16:48
I just wonder how do you reconcile that with a small
16:51
town? Because like the precise issue
16:53
is that there will come a point at which you run out of things
16:56
to do because there is not demand for the thing.
17:00
Or do you just go build the next business like that?
17:02
That's what I'm trying to understand for you personally.
17:05
Yeah, yeah. No, for me personally, I mean,
17:06
like I would love to first of all, hit the 10, then hit the
17:11
25. Those are the two goals that I
17:12
see. And again, it's like a lot of
17:14
things when you hit the goal, you're like, OK, we're going to
17:16
keep going. Or is it time for me to look for
17:18
something else? And maybe, maybe it will be time
17:20
to look for something else. But my, my head is too in the
17:23
trenches right now to even consider.
17:25
I I swear to God, I've not even given that one second thought on
17:29
what that actually looks like when it happens.
17:31
I feel like for myself, when I hit the goal, I don't even think
17:35
about reflecting on it. Like it's not even like I even
17:38
can. It's not in the times of success
17:41
that I consider moving on. It's like always the shit times
17:44
that you consider moving on. You just like get the.
17:46
Goal like 3 months early. You're like, Oh yeah, let's just
17:48
keep going. It's like, it's like default and
17:50
it's just like when you're not hitting the goals, when you're
17:52
like, I don't know, maybe I should move on.
17:55
What sucks in my head in the goal?
17:56
It's like is that It's like. It's generally not that serious
18:01
because like in his case and like similar in my case, like it
18:06
all works out in like even like at this point if like we were to
18:12
get like sued into oblivion. I'm like pretty happy with like
18:16
the amount of EBITDA that I've taken out of the business for
18:18
like the work that I've done in like the last few years.
18:21
And it would be like 10 to 20 times like working a job.
18:25
So it's like, I mean, I I really don't think about the things and
18:32
like the things in which the way that you're framing them either
18:34
shop like I don't think I've ever.
18:39
I do you guys think it's because we're venture backed that I like
18:43
have to confront these questions while you guys are are not like
18:50
because like I'll give you a counterexample.
18:51
I met I saw Tomer at Beanstalk, right?
18:56
And or even if you heard him in the podcast with Sean, like he
19:03
like literally he literally talks about exactly this issue,
19:06
right? Like, the reason they divested
19:08
those businesses is because they saw a ceiling and they were
19:12
like, OK, like, I don't want to spend my time continuing to
19:15
build here because, like, given the ceiling, I would rather
19:18
spend my time building in this other area.
19:21
Right? Which is like an opportunity
19:25
cost, like framing, basically. Right.
19:28
And much more. And like, definitely something
19:30
that's like present with me too, Right.
19:33
And it sounds like you guys are saying it's not present with
19:35
you. And that makes me like,
19:37
extremely curious. Like what?
19:39
Like I I wonder why that might be true.
19:41
Yeah. And Jeremiah, I don't.
19:43
Yeah, actually. What is your view?
19:45
Yeah. I, I actually, I do think
19:47
you're, you're right on that. Like it comes down to like what
19:49
the economics need to be for your business.
19:51
And if it's fully bootstrapped and you own, I don't know, let's
19:54
say just 100% for simplicity, you there are no rules about
19:59
what you can or cannot do in that context, in the context in
20:02
which I operate now having sold a business that's part of a
20:05
holding company, there are some rules.
20:08
So I have to think about it a little bit differently.
20:10
And I think about it in terms of basically what does it look like
20:13
to to increase the profit of the business on?
20:19
An annual basis essentially like that's kind of the goal and
20:22
there's, there's a little bit more formality to that
20:24
obviously, but then that's how that's what frames the way that
20:27
I think about. So I do think about like there
20:30
are milestones that I more or less have to hit that I wouldn't
20:33
maybe care about if I were fully bootstrapped, but I don't really
20:36
think about the maximum potential attempt.
20:39
I'm not thinking about how do you get this to $100 million in
20:41
ARR. Like that is not, that's not my
20:43
goal at all. It's how do I get 10% better,
20:46
20% better, 30% better. So it's a little bit different
20:49
mindset, I think. The other spanner in the works
20:52
here is actually platform risk, because you get to a $25 million
20:56
business and Shopify changes something.
20:59
You know, I've been here 10 years.
21:01
I've had a couple of run insurance.
21:02
I love them, but we've had a couple of run insurance in the
21:04
past that really fucked our business.
21:08
I won't go into details, but you know, but when you're at
21:13
25,000,000, listen, I'm sure you have a line to Harley or someone
21:17
who can like make sure that you don't get absolutely wrecked.
21:22
Someone when I first started in Shopify in 2015, someone gave me
21:25
this great line. It's like I was asking them,
21:28
hey, I'm looking at Shopify. So I spent, I spent a couple of
21:31
years looking for the next thing to do, Bootstrap and Shopify
21:34
popped up on the radar and I was like, holy shit, this is a great
21:37
opportunity. And I asked someone, what do you
21:40
think of this? And they're like, the thing
21:41
about platforms is it's not if you get fucked over, it's when
21:46
you get fucked over. So no, I don't know, maybe
21:50
things have changed. But when you look back through
21:52
every other platform, Facebook, Twitter, whoever you want, read
21:55
it like at a certain time, I know Shopify is different.
21:58
They really invest in, in the partner community, everything
22:01
like that. But it sits in your back, the
22:04
back of your head. It definitely sits in the back
22:05
of mine. Maybe I've gotten burnt a couple
22:07
of times over the last decade, Jeremiah.
22:10
I'm sure you've had some run insurance as well that you're
22:12
like fuck this feels like shaky ground do you know?
22:16
Did they had this whole logo thing?
22:18
Did you not hear about? This yeah, the, the branding
22:21
stuff, I mean, that's a that's a very small example, but there's
22:25
a like I haven't had one where it's like your business is over,
22:30
but I know people that have, but I have had multiple things where
22:33
Shopify is like you have to change this important thing that
22:37
you're doing. Like the extensibility thing was
22:40
that for us, we had a bunch of features that were really unique
22:43
and really compelling that we had to turn off because we just
22:46
couldn't we could no longer do them through the context of
22:51
Shopify's checkout accessibility because they just didn't give us
22:53
the ability to do that anymore, which is annoying.
22:55
Like it, it took us from being it, it dropped us down a notch
23:00
to be closer to our competition in terms of the, the feature set
23:05
that we offered, which was really like, that's annoying.
23:08
It hasn't been really impact on your business.
23:10
So yeah, it, it wasn't like it wasn't business killing, but
23:14
they've been multiple things they've done that have probably
23:16
had a 510% impact on our growth for a period of time where it's
23:21
like it's slowed us down. It's made it harder for us to
23:23
operate. But at the same time, having the
23:27
platform gives us the ability to, to even exist in that
23:31
context. So it's a.
23:33
Yeah. Stu, can I ask a direct
23:35
question? Why not invest into other
23:39
platforms in this context? Like why not invest into
23:43
Salesforce Commerce Cloud? And like, because we talked a
23:47
little bit separately about like sales motions and direct sales
23:51
motions and going to like billion dollar companies and
23:54
things like that. And look like yes, they're going
23:58
to let's just take your version of the world, which is like
24:01
eventually they will go to Shopify, right?
24:03
Like, let's say I believe that, which I don't.
24:05
But even if I do, the timeline for those migrations is totally
24:11
non trivial, right? We're like, I mean, like, dude,
24:16
you and I, we already got the whites, man.
24:18
I mean, like, I don't know how much, you know, like, you know,
24:23
Zach is the only one living young and even he fucking dyed
24:27
his hair, you know? Exactly.
24:30
That's what I'm saying. It's like you're the only one
24:32
who could keep it naturally black, and even you're going
24:34
white. And so like, you know what I
24:36
mean? Like, how how long do you want
24:38
to wait? Yeah.
24:39
To to like acquire those customers.
24:42
Yeah. Well, I mean, this leads into
24:44
another good point, which is where a lot of our growth has
24:47
come from has been driving head first straight into agentic
24:53
coding and how to do that. Again, like we touched on, the
24:58
start of the chat was templatizing important things
25:03
into thinking about things like Lego blocks that you can scale
25:06
up quickly and reliably and have quality output at the end of it,
25:12
as far away from vibe guarding as possible.
25:13
Yeah, yeah. Have you have you figured out
25:15
how to get the LMS to understand what your modules are like?
25:19
That's you've already done that work.
25:22
The biggest thing we did was put in a framework around Claude
25:25
code. There's one that just came out
25:28
called CC Sessions if anyone's interested in it.
25:31
But the whole thing about it is it's, if you let it go, just
25:35
vanilla Claude code, it'll give you back 60% good, but you'll
25:41
probably spend more time fixing it than you would have spent if
25:43
you just did it from the start. What you have to do is what we
25:46
found anyway, is programmatically code in that
25:50
you can only give me output that I have told you that I want and
25:54
the way that I wanted to come back.
25:56
And it has to pass all of these tests before we can actually
26:00
take it as a pull request. So really it's about building
26:04
the guardrails is 90% of the work.
26:07
So you, we spent probably 3 months rebuilding the code base
26:12
to be, let's call it LLM friendly.
26:15
And then from there we just started thinking about things
26:18
like Lego blocks. Literally.
26:20
Hey, if you break everything down, we're crude.
26:24
You know, it's crude monkeys, right?
26:25
It's like everything we do is it's a database API call and
26:30
then we show it in HTML with JavaScript.
26:33
That's it. So we just drastically put
26:37
things into Lego blocks and it has really helped.
26:41
Now, especially when you're built on top of Shopify, it's on
26:45
the back of very well documented APIs that you can use MCPS, you
26:51
can use a lot of other things to plug in and make sure that the
26:54
content is actually correct before you put it into a pull
26:56
request. As soon as you venture into
27:00
Commerce Cloud, it's like multiple times more complex than
27:04
what you're dealing with right now.
27:05
Exactly. So I think we'd be shooting
27:07
ourselves in the foot there, at least now anyway.
27:13
I like what you said still about it's up to the market.
27:17
I think you can split demand up into your town and then your
27:21
growth from the existing cohort, some new dollars flowing in from
27:25
your existing customers. And do you think that a lot of
27:31
that demand and that growth is inflection point driven as in?
27:36
Yeah. I mean, it's not steady.
27:38
Well, this isn't, this isn't a good point here to switch on,
27:41
right, which everybody is moving sideways right now in terms of
27:47
let's if you talk about bring it back to town as well, like look
27:51
at look at Clavio, what they just bring out.
27:53
They brought out a gorgeous competitor.
27:56
A lot of the subscription platforms are bringing out
27:59
loyalty. Everyone's just said, OK, we're
28:02
just going to build similar products to people that know
28:05
like and trust this already. And that's all you do.
28:08
If it's not 2021 and you know, new brands are coming online all
28:13
the time. I don't know if that's exactly
28:15
what you were getting at, Jack, but that's that's where it
28:18
brought me. I Yeah.
28:22
I do think there's a lack of creativity though, to be honest.
28:25
Like I think there's so much more opportunity in spaces that
28:30
nothing exists yet. Obviously it's like a little bit
28:33
hurry, but I, I think the yeah, like I'm not thinking about
28:38
adding additional products that other people sell.
28:39
Like that just seems like a waste of time to me.
28:43
I'm thinking about building things that don't exist.
28:46
But if you imagine if you charged a percentage of growth
28:50
to your customers too, right, and your existing customers and
28:54
that existing cohort that exists in the town right now didn't
28:58
grow, you could grow if enough new money flowed into those
29:03
consolidated companies. But I guess what I mean by
29:07
inflection point driven is that things just blow up out of
29:11
nowhere and you don't know when a massive wave of demand is
29:14
going to come in. So looking at Tam as if it's
29:17
totally static or as if it's just driven by migrations and
29:21
it's not driven by something cataclysmic that we can't
29:24
anticipate. Yeah, I don't know.
29:27
I feel like the demand might be there.
29:30
Right. But you could you could predict
29:31
this pretty well given his current product because like the
29:36
demand for retention has already been sort of created.
29:39
And like the idea that it would 3X in the market would be like a
29:44
Black Swan. And like the only things that
29:47
would like potentially 'cause that is like four of his largest
29:51
competitors going bankrupt and the founders also dying like
29:58
like the only thing that would like 3 XS in like in the.
30:02
Hard market going up, right? Like what was the market for,
30:06
you know, AI engine optimization 0, right?
30:12
It was 0 and then all of a sudden it was something, right?
30:16
I, I do think there's room for expansion inside the like
30:19
Shopify ecosystem. I think there's room for
30:22
meaningful expansion. Certain categories like in the
30:25
survey category when we launched, no, there were a
30:29
couple of very small players that collectively were maybe
30:33
doing a million a year in revenue.
30:34
I don't even think it was that much.
30:36
And what's interesting is as we like we all, all the price
30:39
points are very low at that point in time and all those
30:41
tools very simple and as the market decided that they wanted
30:44
these things and that was having more value and impact it.
30:48
What I've found really interesting is that most of the
30:50
time when somebody's switching from a competitor to come, this
30:53
is a little bit different in the last 12 months, but still
30:56
happens. If somebody's switching from a
30:58
competitor to come work with us, oftentimes they're going to pay
31:01
us more than they were paying the competitor.
31:04
And I think I don't know what your experience has been, Stu,
31:06
but the like, I'm sure you see some of that too, where
31:09
somebody's actually willing to come pay you more money for the
31:14
loyalty stuff that they're doing.
31:16
They were using maybe a points based loyalty system.
31:18
They come pay you more money because there's more impact from
31:20
what you're doing than what they were getting with their points
31:23
based loyalty. So you can like in that context,
31:26
what maybe the Tam only expands by 20%, but you potentially can
31:30
grow 100% because you're capturing most of that in that
31:33
context. Yeah, and this, this reminds me
31:37
of, and this tweet has been living in my head for like a
31:41
month. The one that Taylor Holiday put
31:44
out about like the service part of SAS.
31:48
Do you see that one? Because he fucking nailed it.
31:51
Like absolutely on the head. Like that's where all our margin
31:54
goes, especially when it comes to, you know, loyalty.
31:59
People don't just rock up one day at 8 or 9 figure brand and
32:03
install loyalty and just put it on the site, right?
32:06
It's like the sales cycle is this long and then actual
32:09
implementation, we want to go as fast as possible, but sometimes
32:12
it can take, you know, months to actually get these things
32:15
implemented. So that's, that's the other side
32:19
of it as well is like this actual service side is such a
32:23
big component that when you're looking at the market in
32:26
general, like we used to look at it when we were in the App Store
32:28
and we were like, why are these guys on, you know, whoever?
32:32
And it's like, oh, it's the service component.
32:35
That's that's it, you know. Yeah.
32:38
I, I, I actually like Stew my challenge for you, which I,
32:44
yeah, I mean out of like 100% respect because I don't know the
32:49
constraints, but it's like given that you're making that
32:52
investment already, I don't quite understand why you would
32:57
not accelerate the acquisition of brands that are off of
33:00
Shopify. Like like to me that is like you
33:04
are taking on the cost of onboarding anyway.
33:08
I can't, I don't fully get the delta to you given the business
33:14
model dynamics exist like you have salespeople, you have
33:17
onboarding, you have implementation, you have agentic
33:19
coding tools. Like yes, it's a little bit more
33:22
complicated with Salesforce. It's not that much more
33:24
complicated like we have, we have a ridiculous integration
33:27
with Salesforce Commerce Cloud, OK, like because we have to, we
33:30
have to plug into everything. And like again, I'm not saying
33:34
that it's you, you have to disagree with your view of the
33:37
world about sales for like everybody eventually migrating
33:40
to Shopify, but it'll accelerate the timeline with which you get
33:44
there, right? Yeah, I don't disagree with you.
33:47
I'm I'm open to it. Previously in the past, we've
33:52
just put the blocker up like years ago, we looked at it and I
33:55
was just like, it's too much here.
33:57
But yeah, I mean, might be worth another look, to be honest.
34:00
I'd love to chat with you offline about that.
34:03
Also, yeah, when you're doubling every year, there's less
34:09
appetite I feel like for for investing and things like that.
34:12
Yeah, the last three months has been fucking.
34:16
You can see see the bad new bags under my eyes.
34:20
We've been trying to, I think we've doubled, we've doubled the
34:24
size of the head count, trying to keep it as low as possible,
34:27
but a certain time just you know, I think we're at like 24
34:32
an hour or something like that. Yeah, this is.
34:34
Guys, all that head, head count size.
34:41
Or like 50. 75. Right, not bad.
34:49
Yeah, I, I think like once you're at the point, like, yeah,
34:54
I just think like you're, you're, you're, you're doing it
34:57
anyway. And you're like, you have like
35:00
created these walls for yourself that your reality actually does
35:05
not require those walls anymore. That's my two cents as an
35:10
outside, as an outsider and as a friend.
35:12
Like, you know, I with, with all the, with all the love in the
35:15
world for Shopify and all, like I, I, you know, I just think
35:18
that there's like a lot more love to give.
35:19
So like, why not give it to everybody?
35:21
So. No, no, I'm, I'm, I'm open, man.
35:25
I'm, I'm open. I think for the moment where we
35:29
got the blinkers on for it, Shopify especially, again, as I
35:33
said, we know what's out there might sound like a small pool,
35:37
but you know, to to us it's a meaningful amount.
35:41
So I think we're just heads down on trying to get that into our
35:45
pockets instead. How do you think about hiring
35:48
them? Because it's interesting is like
35:49
we have like pretty closely sized businesses and you have
35:53
like 2 times the headcount. So it's like what, what is that
35:57
headcount made-up of right now? And then how are you making the
35:59
decisions in terms of like directions to grow the team?
36:02
I'm like very much focused on not growing headcount like we've
36:06
grown about 100% this year and we haven't added anybody.
36:11
And as I'm just curious like how you make those decisions?
36:14
Yeah, I would love to keep it as absolutely small as possible.
36:20
Like we all know as business owners, maybe Zach, I'm sure
36:23
maybe you've had a business before that's like past the 10.
36:26
Once it gets past like 30-40, it's just, yeah, it's just does
36:33
not become fun anymore in my perspective.
36:37
But you know, I this is before I was on EOS or any of that kind
36:40
of stuff, but our business is super heavy on on boarding and
36:47
success. Like we have two engineers and
36:50
I'm one of them. So like I guess?
36:53
Most of the head count is marketing, sales and success.
36:56
Yeah. And since January, the only
37:00
people we've hired are people who get on Zoom calls and talk
37:04
to brands or talk to partners. And we've tried just to hire the
37:10
best people in the industry that we can.
37:13
And like we're at 5 million, we're putting just every penny
37:17
back into the business. So I'm four years in here, I've
37:21
made $0.00 from this business and probably you know minus a
37:26
couple of million, who knows something like that.
37:27
I haven't even counted it. I want to, but we are just
37:30
putting it all back into the people again, coming back to the
37:34
small town relationships in our market.
37:40
It took me a long time to learn this.
37:42
They mean a fucking hell of a lot more than like I keep
37:46
learning every year. I'm like, holy shit.
37:49
It just keeps coming back to like knowing, trusting and
37:52
liking somebody and willing to say, hey, I'm going to put my
37:56
money with you guys and now that you're going to deliver for me.
38:00
So yeah, that's that's where all our money is going.
38:02
I think we're at a great spot right now where we're going to
38:06
chill on the hiring for a bit. Seems like we've gotten things
38:09
under, under control there and it's going to go to the next
38:12
stage. So one of the things I think.
38:15
Especially in SAS, it's built into the model, right?
38:18
No one keeps subscriptions that aren't serving them into the
38:21
future. They cancel.
38:23
I don't know, if you were selling engagement rings, you
38:25
might be able to pull off having a bad reputation because you
38:27
only have to sell once, hopefully, right?
38:30
But you're not selling engagement rings, you're selling
38:32
a subscription, right? So you need your customers to
38:35
like you. And yeah, I think that just part
38:38
of having a low time preference, valuing things being good in the
38:41
long run as opposed to like right now.
38:45
What were the main changes when you said you were plateaued at a
38:48
millionaire are just from the Shopify App Store and then you
38:51
switched like what were the main changes that happened during
38:53
that switch? Yeah, the main problem was that
38:57
nobody knew we existed like you think that, and I see as well.
39:03
I lived for five years, 5 or 6 years in the App Store and then
39:09
the last four on the other side of it.
39:11
And they they could not be more completely different businesses.
39:17
Yeah. So yeah, we.
39:20
Go ahead. Oh, I would say we survey our
39:22
customers when I sign up and ask them where they found out.
39:24
Some, I mean less than 10% of our revenue comes from App Store
39:28
discovery. What do you guys use for this?
39:30
Surveys it's. A company called No Commerce.
39:36
Together. Lots, lots of people use it.
39:41
So yeah, we, we basically hit then the 1,000,000 ceiling in
39:44
the App Store, looked around and this is when, I don't know if
39:47
you guys know like Adam Robinson over and he's like on LinkedIn.
39:53
He was the first person in our industry to be like, hey, here's
39:56
how much money I'm making. And here's my you literally
39:59
printed as like his financials and put them up.
40:02
And I was like, this guy's making. 20 million plus in our
40:06
like space and he's only been doing it like a few years.
40:10
I was like what what the hell is this guy doing so kind of
40:13
tracked that down started to build in public stuff, which I
40:17
see some other people are doing this very well as well.
40:20
The guys that Alia killing it with this yeah, they are get to
40:25
if you can get to 1,000,000 and start building in the start
40:29
building public just say how much you have.
40:31
It doesn't fucking matter. You think it matters?
40:35
You want people to sign an NDA? It doesn't matter.
40:37
We have $1,000,000 in error either.
40:40
You're good enough that it doesn't matter if you have new
40:42
competitors or not. They've really leaned into it
40:45
and they've went from 1:00 to 5:00 in like the last year or
40:49
something like that, and they've blown up off the back of doing
40:53
building public. I think it's the best weapon for
40:56
any founder, especially bootstrapped.
41:00
And once you hit that million mark, I feel like before
41:02
1,000,000, if you're doing that 100,000, it's just like, it's
41:06
like seeing a comedian when he's like a year in.
41:08
It's like, oh, that guy sucks, you know what I mean?
41:11
It just doesn't work without a million.
41:13
It's the best thing you can do. OK.
41:15
So, so no, this is maybe over saying it.
41:19
Very few businesses just go up into the right forever.
41:23
What's your thought about the risk of that?
41:24
Like at a certain point in time, you're going to plateau, maybe
41:28
even decline a little bit while you're trying to like get to the
41:31
next state. What do you think about that?
41:32
Because there's a, you know what, what I see when that
41:35
happens, people have built in public and all of a sudden they
41:37
stop talking about things. It's like, oh, business isn't
41:39
going so great. So I'm curious how you feel
41:41
about that. Yeah, if you actually look, the
41:44
majority of people stop at 5 million.
41:47
And I think the reason they stop a 5 million is because when
41:50
you're at 1,000,000, you're the founder.
41:52
And if it doesn't work, well then like it's fucking all on
41:55
you at 10 million, five million. You can't dunk on the head of
42:02
sales because you're already your CRO because revenue isn't
42:06
where you want it and take the responsibility when it's
42:08
somebody else's job to do, you know.
42:10
So I think most people are like, I don't want to throw my team
42:13
under the bus. There's only so much
42:16
responsibility that obviously everything comes up to you as
42:19
the founder CEO, right. But like, you don't want to say,
42:22
hey, we had a bad quarter and then throw your team under the
42:26
bus or whatever. You know, I think that's why
42:29
most people Bow Wow around 5 million.
42:31
Seriously, I think the reason most people bow at 5 million is
42:35
because like Tams are forces of gravity and and like getting
42:44
past. I mean, like I will tell you
42:47
like the number one conversation I had at Beanstalk was with
42:51
other ECOM SAS founders who are at a few million of ARR and they
42:55
were asking for sales and marketing advice.
42:58
And you want to know what the number you know what you, what I
43:02
shared with them is don't invest in sales and marketing because
43:06
all you're going to do is hit the ceiling faster and you want
43:09
to sell your business when it looks like this, not when it
43:12
looks like this, right? Like that's yeah.
43:17
And, and and that's actually sort of like part of the part of
43:20
part of the issue here is like because growth rate is going to
43:26
be a big part of how your business gets valued at the
43:29
point at which you sell it probably, right.
43:32
Especially if you're selling it to like, PE or something like
43:38
that, unless it's like a strategic sale, which is like a
43:41
totally different conversation. But yeah, like, managing against
43:48
like not getting close to the plateau is super important.
43:54
And I'm curious what you think is the reasonable range that
43:59
somebody should expect to be able to hit before they start to
44:02
get to that plateau? Between 10 and between 10 and
44:05
20. I like what you say.
44:10
You're about like, no one's heard of you, right?
44:13
No one had heard of us, right? You had maybe a good product.
44:16
It was maybe providing supply to a real market demand.
44:19
People would use it if they knew about you.
44:22
I've been thinking about this recently because I see it in
44:24
like, you know, the headlines of funny videos or sometimes
44:27
serious videos. I think when people hear about
44:29
the word marketing, it becomes a bit of a buzzword.
44:33
But it's just the process of taking your product to market.
44:36
Moving off Shopify is marketing. You're taking your product to a
44:38
different market. I don't think marketing and Mon
44:42
Gen. is interesting to SAS. Maybe there's something romantic
44:45
about growth without the extra cost.
44:48
But yeah, I don't know. Do you guys think that software
44:50
has been in the game of providing supply to an existing
44:54
demand or something that people are craving and there hasn't
44:57
needed be that much demand Gen. If you're on Shopify, Shopify
45:01
kind of doing a lot of the demand Gen. for you.
45:06
I think they do a lot for you on the App Store side, right.
45:10
But on the on the other side, again, it's that big line in the
45:14
middle of App Store versus every shops that Beanstalk talking to
45:20
everyone there. None of those founders that are
45:22
there are barely even know the App Store exists or that your
45:26
app is number 3 in the search results.
45:28
Like they just don't see it. It's which blew my mind when we
45:33
first made that jump over. I was like, we we went to it was
45:37
a fucking humbling. We went to this like do it
45:40
wasn't that long ago. Is that send lane conference.
45:43
In fact, Jeremiah, we were there.
45:45
Yeah. And I was just like talking to
45:47
everyone like who? Who the fuck are you?
45:48
Like not that, not that we think right big.
45:55
And this is this was years ago, but there's nothing worse than
45:58
being at a conference and someone is you say, you say
46:01
like, here's my business and someone's like, oh, OK.
46:04
And like the the eyes glaze over or whatever.
46:08
I think that having people just know who you are is the biggest
46:12
thing you can do. So I don't think anyone is going
46:16
to want loyalty or attention software tomorrow, but if they
46:19
at least can match our name to the next six months when it
46:23
comes to them wanting it, that they're like, well, let's have a
46:26
demo with them just because I know that that's what they do.
46:29
I think that's that's the best thing you can do for it.
46:31
But yeah. I'm sorry you guys should keep
46:35
going, but I actually need to hop.
46:36
But yeah. Alright man, good to chat.
46:43
I think that the reason why people don't continue to build
46:46
in public is that the leverage on the transparency decreases
46:51
over time. Like if you have one customer
46:54
and then one new person sees your LinkedIn post, now you have
46:56
two customers. That's 100% growth and like it.
46:58
I think it's like a consistent thing.
47:01
And there's like people that have taken it to like a really
47:04
large level, like I think the largest maybe build in public
47:07
like SAS kind of guys like maybe like the LEM list dude.
47:11
But like over long enough time horizon, it stops being about
47:14
Lemlis and it starts being about him.
47:16
And then you're building a personal brand.
47:17
And then you also do like consider like, am I someone that
47:19
wants to be like a personal brand type guy?
47:25
That's like the piece that I've always got too.
47:27
Is that like I we did a little bit of it early on.
47:30
I've never talked about revenue just because like I think that
47:35
like the the best. I mean, I think it's good for
47:37
like engagement and stuff like that, but I think it's like most
47:41
of the time irrelevant and talking to your ICP.
47:44
And like, I don't have like a desire to become like a sass
47:47
guru like after this, like the highest leverage thing I could
47:51
do potentially after this. And like maybe a reason I should
47:53
be building a personal brand is like maybe to invest in other
47:57
things. But like I also don't see myself
47:59
becoming an investor. So it's like for me, it's like
48:01
I, I haven't seen. It's also just like, I don't
48:06
necessarily want to do it at my time and I'm like, you can, it
48:09
really is just like choose which way you want to go and then just
48:12
commit to the way you want to go, right?
48:14
Like there's a lot of people that have like fake photos on
48:17
their, on their Twitter profiles that are the largest Twitter
48:19
profiles and there's no, you know what I'm saying?
48:21
So it's like at the end of the day, there's like 1000 ways to
48:24
skin a cat and like kind of skin it, you know, just make sure it
48:29
gets skinned. I think the diminishing returns
48:32
thing is a real thing. Like even for myself, I like.
48:35
I like posting and doing those things, but the reality is the
48:39
last six months I've had more the impact of my time is so much
48:44
bigger working on problems that cost us six to seven figures
48:48
than it is like getting another person to know about what we're
48:51
doing on. Like you get to a point in these
48:53
businesses become machines where I think you can have some impact
48:58
as a founder, certainly. But I think it's just like the,
49:03
IT doesn't to your point, Zach, like the, the incremental impact
49:06
of that just isn't as big as some of the other things you'd
49:08
be worried about in terms of like scaling of systems and
49:11
processes and making sure that people are doing the right
49:13
things and focused on the right things and building the right
49:15
things and, and all of that. So.
49:18
I also think that like for me, like this year, I've radically
49:22
reduced my consumption of this type of content, specifically on
49:27
like I used to scroll Twitter and LinkedIn probably hours a
49:30
day. And I felt like it gave me like
49:31
a lot of data points that were like, and but then I kind of it
49:34
reached a point where I was just like, oh, history just repeats
49:37
itself. And I'm reading the same thing
49:39
over and over and I'm not seeing like the sparks of like ideas
49:44
and things like that, that I, that I once did when and
49:47
potentially the panoramic of like my ideas were like green.
49:54
And then I was like, oh, like the actual thing I should do is
49:56
like spend more time like looking at our own data or just
50:00
like thinking without like input.
50:03
And like I generally have gotten more value out of that.
50:07
And I think the last like 12 months, it's just being, I'm a
50:10
bit like fucking disconnected from it all.
50:12
I don't want to see in stupid threads or like the things and
50:15
like I'm just going to build a business.
50:18
Yeah, man, you have. You're like there's also stuff
50:21
I'm sorry I was saying you have a post that pops off fuck up
50:24
your day for like you're back in replying to people.
50:29
You know what I mean? It's a lot.
50:32
Sorry, Jack. There's a scale as well of like
50:34
building in public. I used to work in agency and one
50:37
of the biggest brands that used to have $1,000,000 days, you
50:42
know, they'd be very happy with numbers that, you know, would
50:47
make me very happy. All right, huge business.
50:49
And the founder used to do lives.
50:52
I remember something that she said that stuck with me was the
50:54
best thing I've ever done is stop doing lives so she could
50:58
start building her business in different ways.
51:00
Lives were super time consuming for her.
51:01
She just hated the activity, right?
51:04
And her business was a lot smaller when she was doing
51:06
lives. She's still active online.
51:07
Like she's like a, it's a founder LED brand, but she just
51:11
posts videos and she doesn't even record them, edit them
51:13
anything. Someone just follows her around,
51:15
right? So for a lot of people, what she
51:17
does would be building in public.
51:18
That's potentially exhausting, but it's a better alternative to
51:22
what she used to do, right? Yeah, I think it's industry
51:25
specific as well. So like I'm going to, I'm going
51:28
to do so Prashad here and now he's not on the call, but you
51:31
take cues at Beanstalk, right? Him and walking through
51:35
Beanstalk and him being visible on LinkedIn, Twitter is huge
51:41
compared to him. I've never showing his face on
51:44
social media. I think brands, Ecom, SAS brands
51:48
that are probably starting to drop off.
51:51
I bet you couldn't even name the founder of the CEO who is
51:54
actually in charge there right now when it comes to
51:56
relationships. No, Jeremiah is a good dude.
52:00
He's going to take care of us. That means a lot in the small
52:04
little space we're we're in. It's it's a clique as well, man.
52:08
Like you got to be in the nightclub, you know what I mean?
52:10
Or you're outside, behind the behind the the curtain.
52:15
And it, and it also depends on like in Rashad's case, he's got
52:18
very high AC DS. And so it's like you walk
52:22
through that conference, you make a relationship with
52:24
somebody and that turns into a deal.
52:27
You just paid for the next 3 conferences, right?
52:30
Like what whatever that looks like.
52:33
And the context of my business was not the case.
52:35
Like for me, it's literally just like a branding play.
52:38
Just showing up and getting faced on with people.
52:40
There's no ROI on that. I cannot actually, like, I
52:43
shouldn't say there's no ROI, but I cannot measure an ROI that
52:46
actually makes sense in doing those things because we just
52:51
don't charge enough for that to, to be the case.
52:53
And so like there's a, there's a difference of in that too.
52:56
And I think like how how people show up, whether intentional or
53:00
not, I think how you show up in the space is partially dictated
53:03
by how much you can charge for the thing that you sell as well.
53:07
Yeah, dude, you go. There is no social media from me
53:11
before 2023 because I sold a product that was 29 and $69.00.
53:15
I did not need people to know. I needed them to click the
53:18
button on the App Store. You know, there was no point.
53:21
It was a waste of my fucking time even thinking about that.
53:24
And then it completely flips and it's the exact opposite, just
53:27
like you mentioned. So yeah, it's all nuanced, man.
53:30
It's all. It's all weird.
53:35
I wanted to ask you a couple of questions.
53:37
I saw a few of your tweets and I thought they were interesting.
53:40
This is one of them if I can share my screen.
53:46
Sounds overly simple, but you can fix a lot of bullshit at
53:49
your SAS startup by fixing or improving the product.
53:54
Yeah, I mean super. It does sound overly simple,
54:00
like 10 years in Shopify. I've tried every little hack
54:03
that you can think of. I could probably talk the year
54:05
off is about every little hack and it's it sucks that it just
54:10
comes back to the boring basics are actually what works.
54:15
Hey, what do you know, fix the product, improves the product
54:19
and everything just gets easier from like top to bottom.
54:22
You log into your slack. Hey, client B has an issue.
54:26
Hey, there's a bug here and people are doing this that and
54:28
the other. Well, if you just fix it,
54:30
everything just becomes a lot more Zen all of a sudden and
54:34
sometimes it backlogs up and you're like, all right, we need
54:37
like a reset week here where we're just going to clean the
54:39
deck of everything. Stop this because you know your
54:42
support team, they they're like want to be proactive, but they
54:47
will actually create workarounds that are like a huge Band-Aid
54:51
and cover up the actual problem or bug that exists.
54:55
So it's like just being absolutely brutally ruthless
55:00
with like cleaning up the product is, is definitely what
55:03
we're trying to do if you guys. Like this so much opportunity
55:07
cost and fixing things constantly, right, As opposed to
55:11
building something else, right? Moving forwards, just changing
55:15
direction, right. Moving between fixing stuff and
55:18
and actually building for your customers, right.
55:20
And that process of changing direction.
55:23
Yeah, Yeah. It's, I wonder how much cockle
55:25
there isn't there? Yeah, Zach's sitting there
55:29
thinking, thank God we haven't, you know, stacked up a bunch of
55:32
tech debt. Yeah, our dev teams are a little
55:36
bit more than two people. And now Zach has that shit
55:39
dialed in. I wouldn't say it's dialed, but
55:42
like we're pretty, it's funny. Like even just when talking with
55:47
like our personal manager, customer support, it's like we
55:51
have these like really, we have really big bugs, but we have
55:53
very little small bugs. You know, like when, when, when
55:56
something bad happens, it's like really bad.
55:57
But like, she's like, honestly, like we don't really have much
56:01
success or onboarding or like you get like hundreds of sign
56:04
ups a day, you know, like people work their way through it.
56:07
And like, so like, yeah, I have. I'm happy that we don't have a
56:14
big success team. Like I always got the vibe that
56:17
you were like the the product guy, you know what I mean?
56:19
That's the way it always it always seemed.
56:22
If I could only work on a product every single day, all
56:25
day, I would be a very happy person.
56:27
Yeah, happiness decreases the more that I spend time on even
56:32
just like, even marketing. Like, I'd rather just work on
56:34
product. Like, it's definitely the best.
56:38
Sweet, I think it's good I got to hop off for another call but.
56:42
All right, good. Thanks.
56:45
All right, guys.