Latest / Tony & Sarah Unscripted / Ep 17: From a Mother’s Strength to Advocacy — Part One

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Ep 17: From a Mother’s Strength to Advocacy — Part One · Tony & Sarah Unscripted

0:09
Welcome back to Tony and Sarah unscripted.
0:12
Thank you so much for joining us.
0:14
We are here with Denise. Denise.
0:16
Thanks for coming back. Thank you.
0:18
Denise was here with us episode four, and she talked
0:22
about quite a huge thing that has had happened in her life.
0:25
Continues to happen in her life.
0:28
Stuff that's gone on with her son and
0:31
some advocacy work that she has done and continues to do so.
0:35
Thank you so much for being here.
0:37
Honestly, I know you're a busy woman, so I appreciate getting us in,
0:41
but the first thing I wanted to mention to you, I'm sure, that you saw, was
0:46
how much attention your episode got.
0:49
I remember texting you, and I'd be like, over 10,000, over 20,000,
0:53
over over 50,000.
0:55
Remember? Over 100,000, 150.
0:57
Like you just kept getting the social media blow up.
1:00
And it wasn't just that people were were watching.
1:02
They were commenting.
1:03
Did you get a chance to look at any of those comments?
1:06
I did, yes I did. I responded to,
1:10
I hopefully all of the I don't know.
1:13
Yeah.
1:13
There wasn't as many as I could.
1:17
Did you think that it would get such attention?
1:19
No. Okay. Not at all. No.
1:21
You texted me to take a look.
1:23
I wasn't even sure what you were referring to.
1:25
And I took a look at it, and I couldn't believe it.
1:28
And I.
1:29
And I feel like
1:33
mental health and the.
1:36
And I think we're as a society and a bit of a mental health crisis,
1:41
there is more and more psychosis happening to people.
1:46
And people feel very isolated.
1:49
So I think me being vocal about our experience
1:53
and my, my Ellis experience and my family's experience,
1:58
I think it makes people feel,
2:02
seen in a way that perhaps they didn't feel before.
2:05
I think mental health issues have been very taboo, and I think I shared
2:10
with you in our previous episode, Ellis has a diagnosis of schizophrenia,
2:16
and after he had
2:18
his psychotic break, we found out
2:22
that there was a relative in our own family history
2:26
that also had schizophrenia that no one had ever told us about.
2:30
So my,
2:32
my mother in law's brother suffered from psychosis,
2:36
but because of the generational gap, it's so taboo
2:41
that it was never it was never told to us after our own child's break.
2:46
And I think a lot of people feel that mental health defines who they are.
2:51
And I think to see how Ellis has been
2:55
navigating it, incarceration
2:57
after his break, and there's still so much hope for him.
3:02
It gives other people
3:05
hope for their own journey.
3:07
So, absolutely, I think I was reading a lot of the comments,
3:11
and they were people talking about incidences where it happened
3:15
in their family or even with them,
3:19
and they were so appreciative to you for for bringing this out
3:23
and discussing it in public and doing all,
3:26
of course, the work that you are doing and continuing to do.
3:30
Before we move on to that.
3:32
How is Ellis doing?
3:34
So today Ellis is doing
3:39
he's basically recovered.
3:42
So his in terms of psychosis or he's
3:46
he's in a very strong remission I guess would be a better way of saying it.
3:51
He is in a very challenging environment.
3:54
He's still incarcerated.
3:56
He's had some setbacks due to his incarceration recently,
4:00
and his mental health has remained strong and stable.
4:04
So he's doing he's doing as well as he could
4:08
possibly do in the environment that he's in.
4:11
And you had said that he went off the medication, correct? Yes.
4:15
And the reason why he wanted to do
4:17
that was because he wanted to try it while being in a confined space. Yes.
4:21
Which I thought was pretty brilliant of him to to,
4:27
because God forbid,
4:29
he needed to be on it longer.
4:31
This would sort of give him an opportunity to see that.
4:34
Right?
4:36
Yes. I see the logic in that.
4:38
Okay.
4:39
I know as a mom, though, his mother,
4:42
his mother did not necessarily agree with that.
4:44
However, yes, you're right.
4:45
So he's been off of his antipsychotic medication
4:48
for about a year now and has not had a relapse.
4:52
He has since gone off of all other medications,
4:57
so he was on medication for anxiety.
5:01
He had had a diagnosis of OCD since he was a child.
5:05
So prior to his break, he is off of his off of all medication right now.
5:11
So that's amazing.
5:13
It it's it's pretty remarkable.
5:16
And he's been doing he's been very stable.
5:20
So he's been doing really well in that regard
5:25
with the state of our Department of Corrections.
5:28
I do get I do have concerns about.
5:33
Factors in
5:35
that environment that contribute to him.
5:40
And when I speak for Alice, I speak about Ellis and anybody else
5:45
who is suffering from a serious mental illness that's living in incarceration,
5:50
which is a good portion of the population
5:54
that we have incarcerated in Connecticut.
5:57
So, I mean, you probably know already the history
6:01
with mental health institutions.
6:03
They were all closed and there was a big push to close them.
6:11
Not all of them, but many of them just shut them down.
6:14
And and the intention was to move mental health care into a community
6:18
and have better community services, which has not happened.
6:23
So our Department of Corrections is really charged
6:27
with caring for the mental health.
6:31
I mean, you can use Ellis as an example.
6:40
So here's Ellis as an acute psychotic break.
6:43
And with, you know, he went missing from home, as you know.
6:48
And then
6:53
he he stabbed a woman in the leg.
6:56
And he is now living in prison.
6:58
And he prior to his incarceration,
7:05
there was no there's no, like, moral failing on his part.
7:09
He was inflicted with a very serious illness.
7:12
So what he needs while he's living in incarceration is support for that illness.
7:18
But he's living in an that is charged with, you know, safety
7:23
for the public and control
7:26
and the the objectives are a little bit different.
7:33
And I think we're we're on the verge of turning a corner
7:38
here in our state to make, incarceration more meaningful.
7:43
But his existence still has
7:47
meant a lot of stressors that have not been,
7:51
constructive for somebody with serious mental illness.
7:54
This is the staff.
7:56
Are they trained to like, since they they're moving people
8:00
that have emotional issues in prison now and like you said,
8:04
did they train the staff to deal with that type of,
8:08
you know, person I don't know.
8:10
Okay.
8:11
So so Ellis has been incarcerated.
8:14
So it has so our in our system has changed a bit since he's been there.
8:20
So I, I do want to highlight and I'm really
8:25
I, I think it's a huge step forward.
8:29
The commissioner of the Department of Corrections has recently changed.
8:33
And the person who is now,
8:37
sitting at the top.
8:40
Her name is Sean.
8:42
Commissioners and I have met with her a couple of times
8:47
already, and my impressions of her, or that she is very forward
8:52
thinking and very reform, you know, very,
8:56
interested in reform
9:01
means
9:02
to make our, our system more constructive.
9:05
So I think her intentions are in the right place.
9:09
So I want to say I want to put that up front.
9:11
Yeah.
9:13
And through no fault of their own,
9:18
for some people or some people,
9:22
but but she, she is in charge of a system
9:26
that, by and large, has,
9:30
run on a very.
9:34
Is, is very punitive by design.
9:38
So you think about it like our prisons
9:41
are supposed to be designed to rehabilitate.
9:45
Yeah,
9:47
but they're
9:48
so focused on punishing people for what they did
9:52
rather than preparing people
9:54
to reenter our society.
9:57
And if you look at our recidivism
10:02
rates in the state of Connecticut, they are outrageous.
10:05
And the way we treat people in prison really speaks to that.
10:10
So we we don't have a system
10:13
today that is designed to rehabilitate,
10:16
much less, that's designed for recovery, for serious mental illness.
10:20
So that is so far on the back burner.
10:23
So, Tony, to your question, are people
10:27
that are working in our prison system trained to
10:32
address somebody who is in a
10:34
as a health crisis or,
10:37
struggling with their mental health?
10:40
The answer, by and large, is no, not at all.
10:43
And in fact, people are often punished
10:46
for their symptoms of their mental illness while they're living in,
10:51
rather than being met with any kind of,
10:56
empathy or knowledge around
11:00
how to defuze the situation or,
11:07
meet somebody who's in crisis.
11:09
Now, Commissioner Carlos has since
11:15
appointed a
11:17
his name was Craig Burns and I can't remember his exact title,
11:21
but his he is trained psychiatrist
11:25
and he is going to be in charge of medical care for the
11:29
Department of Corrections. And he.
11:32
I don't know if he's her, her deputy second in command,
11:34
but he's right up there.
11:35
There seem to be working looks yet, which is a huge improvement,
11:39
which can be a huge improvement because you often have people for both
11:43
medical and physical care, waiting months upon months
11:46
upon months for treatment,
11:49
and while their conditions are worsening and worsening.
11:52
Think about it.
11:53
If you're in a mental health crisis
11:54
and you're waiting one's to be seen by some good,
11:57
where are you going to be by the time you're seeing?
11:58
Well, that's what happened to Ellis.
11:59
I thought when he was in in Carson
12:02
initially, it was just years
12:06
that he was still hearing terrible voices and things.
12:10
Right? Because there was no diagnosis.
12:12
There was there was no help for him three and a half years.
12:15
Yeah, that was one for three and a half years without receiving the medication.
12:19
Yeah. Oh my God. So
12:23
yes. So he does not hear any of that stuff anymore?
12:27
No. And his, his,
12:31
hallucinations and delusions were very specific.
12:33
So he was.
12:36
Well, he was he was seeing a phenomena
12:40
that did not exist that he called Jackson.
12:43
That was.
12:46
Tormenting him and instructing him
12:48
and forcing him to do things that he would otherwise never do.
12:54
And there were other things that were happening.
12:56
So he was seeing things I think I shared with you.
13:00
You know, he would see he he thought the walls.
13:03
Walls, right? Yeah.
13:04
Like he would, he would think the walls were bleeding or he would think,
13:08
other people were being commanded or
13:12
he would have to contort himself into different positions,
13:15
or it would mean destruction, just like his body in different ways,
13:18
and stay like that for 24 hours.
13:21
And people would,
13:23
you know, corrections officers would pass his cell back and forth.
13:27
They just ignore him. Yeah.
13:29
Here's a kid who's really, really well and they just ignore him.
13:32
And I think,
13:35
I mean, the neglect to a point.
13:39
I remember one time Ellis had vomited and he was sick
13:43
and he vomited.
13:47
It was two days before.
13:49
Wow. Two days.
13:51
No one brought him a change of bedding.
13:53
Right? They they didn't let him change the sheets.
13:56
I emailed the warden and said, can somebody please check on my son?
14:00
He vomited two days ago and has been asking
14:03
for somebody to bring him a change of sheets for two days,
14:06
and nobody has done it yet, so they just looked at us up.
14:10
It's just continued to it that they don't matter.
14:15
Like the the people in there, you know, they,
14:17
they treat people that are in their charge as they don't matter.
14:20
And I think.
14:24
What I'm hoping will happen
14:26
is that from the from leadership down
14:29
there will be,
14:33
a call to have goals
14:34
for people who are incarcerated
14:38
and plans for people for what?
14:40
How you want them to leave when they leave.
14:43
Everybody incarcerated, almost everybody incarcerated.
14:46
More than 95% of people are going to come back into society.
14:50
Most of them are going to go back into prison.
14:53
And it's a failing of our system.
14:57
And, and it's and it's at a cost to our society.
15:02
So we all pay for it.
15:05
You know, prison is not free.
15:08
Prison is, prison runs
15:11
on a lot of money,
15:16
always used in the most constructive way.
15:19
I do believe that there needs to be more of an investment.
15:23
Probably unknown.
15:26
There needs to be more of.
15:28
There needs to be more.
15:30
Ask, you know,
15:34
our state officials and our governor's office
15:37
to ensure that it is that are incarcerated
15:41
system is able to function in a way
15:44
that improves outcomes and
15:49
helps people once they leave
15:51
and reenter, so that the
15:54
so that we can start peeling back the overall costs to this state.
15:58
Yeah.
15:59
So because now we're just throwing good money after bad, you know,
16:02
you're talking about this and you're bringing me back in time
16:04
when at one time there was a trans girl, they called her Jane Doe in Connecticut.
16:09
They didn't know where to put her, so they put her in the boys.
16:13
That's when they had the boys unit in Middletown.
16:16
Okay? And she wasn't just in her own pod.
16:19
She was in her own building, and I was her coach.
16:22
So once a week I would go and I would have to walk through
16:26
at least six locked doors to get to her.
16:29
And there was a guard sitting inside.
16:31
And I'll never forget it.
16:33
Every time I was there at dinner time, they would walk in.
16:36
They would throw the paper plate with,
16:40
you know, tinfoil over it at her.
16:43
And I kept thinking to myself, how is this union?
16:47
Could a walk out of here feeling good about herself?
16:50
Feeling like happy or anything when this is the way she's being treated.
16:55
So when you're.
16:56
When you treat Youmans like that.
16:58
How do they.
16:59
The only energy they're taking in is anger and hate.
17:03
So how could we expect them to walk out of that feeling like,
17:06
you know, I'm going to be productive and I'm going to.
17:08
Yeah, it was so sad. It was just so sad.
17:11
So when Ellis was at Manson, so he first he went to a youth.
17:14
Manson they use a sport.
17:19
So, you know, sport. Yeah, yeah.
17:21
So he didn't have a so.
17:32
Yeah. So he didn't have a sport.
17:35
So he would literally have to rip off a piece of his tray to feed himself.
17:41
Why didn't they have why didn't they give him a sport.
17:43
They. Well, that's a great question.
17:46
I mean, I mean, there's so many things that are just logical that you can ask
17:50
about, like, it's so easy.
17:53
Why wouldn't they give him a pillow? Right?
17:56
Like, Ellis
17:57
has literally grown up to a large degree while he's been incarcerated.
18:01
I mean, he didn't even shave when he was arrested.
18:02
He was he just turned 18 years old.
18:05
So he just turned 25 in September.
18:07
Oh, wow. Wow.
18:09
Yeah. She's.
18:10
So he had another incident recently,
18:13
but he did advocate for himself this time. And.
18:20
And ultimately the incident was resolved.
18:23
So, in a, in a
18:29
I don't know I'll tell you what happened. So.
18:31
Yeah.
18:31
So l in when when you're living in incarceration,
18:35
you're able to have you can purchase a, a small television.
18:40
And you know,
18:43
I actually don't know what it looks like.
18:45
I have a vision of what it looks like.
18:46
But you kind of need to, you know, it's like the old school.
18:49
You have to come in and antenna to it, and you have you get a set of headphones
18:53
and I think they have like 3
18:56
or 4 television stations that they can watch.
18:59
But when you when you have absolutely
19:02
nothing to do for 24 hours a day,
19:06
you like
19:08
a television is a lifesaver, especially when
19:11
you know when you're struggling.
19:12
It's a great distraction.
19:13
It's a it's a way to kind of try and put yourself something.
19:16
Yeah.
19:17
So we
19:20
they do routine checks
19:22
in in prison to make sure that everything is,
19:25
you know, people are holding onto a stolen goods
19:27
or they're not, they don't have drugs or they don't have any,
19:30
you know, they they do these jets.
19:32
So they're doing one of these routine checks.
19:35
And whoever the officer is
19:38
looks at Ellis's television and decides it doesn't belong to him.
19:42
Ellis's have this television, you know, he he had it when he was at Garner.
19:47
Questionable institution.
19:48
He transferred to Osborne, where he is now with the same television.
19:53
At one point, there were some issues at Osborne
19:56
where they had to transfer people out temporarily.
19:59
He transferred out to another facility
20:02
that was born, Unity Unit.
20:05
There's never been a problem with the television.
20:07
All of a sudden there's, you know, somebody new comes through and they
20:10
they tell him television doesn't belong to him.
20:13
So he advocates for himself and says, no, this is my television.
20:17
Now, he's kind of a quiet
20:20
person.
20:21
And, you know, he's not he's not allowed person by any means. So.
20:26
But he did.
20:26
He stood up for himself.
20:28
So. And I'm proud of him.
20:31
He's proud of himself for sticking up for himself.
20:33
And he's healthier now.
20:36
So he has the capacity to stick up for himself. So.
20:40
He's told by the captain in the unit.
20:46
All right.
20:47
You can stick up for yourself, but if you do,
20:51
if you won't, if you won't agree to the fact
20:53
that the television doesn't belong to you,
20:57
you're going to get a ticket.
20:58
So when you get a ticket while you're incarcerated, it's a huge setback.
21:03
It comes with other penalties.
21:06
So it and and they can last for six months.
21:11
So they can they can take away like your privileges.
21:15
And, you know, depending upon what they are,
21:19
they can take away different,
21:24
things that you have available to you for a long time.
21:27
So it's especially relevant to Ellis because Ellis has gone for six years
21:33
without programing or schooling.
21:37
So he just after six years.
21:40
Oh my God.
21:41
He got into a vocational program
21:45
and he's able to to a Pell Grant through a federally funded
21:48
Pell Grant, able to take some community college.
21:52
Oh that's wonderful.
21:52
Oh that's great. And it hadn't started yet.
21:55
And now the Taliban is at risk because if you have ticket,
22:00
you're not supposed to be able to take facet.
22:03
So they and they keep adding on to it.
22:08
So now so now here's a kid who's doing everything
22:11
to fight for his own mental health and they're about to take away.
22:16
So they're there.
22:17
He's a getting a ticket.
22:19
So he advocated for himself further.
22:22
And he which is essentially a waste of time.
22:27
And he kind of knows it is. Yeah. But he,
22:32
went to a hearing about the ticket.
22:35
And then they add on to that, they say, you know what,
22:37
he has a tablet that he can use to call me phone calls with.
22:41
We're taking away the tablet for 90 days.
22:43
So yeah, they're going to limit his communication.
22:46
So they just so you so it's just
22:50
they they they add insult to injury all the time.
22:53
So what is the point of all of this.
22:55
You know, what are what are we solving for here.
22:57
By doing by doing something like this.
22:59
So here you have somebody and I'm using him because he's my child.
23:02
So he's is a example for me to use.
23:04
But here you have somebody who had a mental health crisis.
23:08
He didn't choose to have a psychotic break that happened to him.
23:12
And he committed a crime.
23:14
And he should be accountable to to the crime. And he is.
23:18
But eventually
23:20
we want him to reenter society, a whole person.
23:24
And what are we doing to prepare him now.
23:27
Parole alone. And this is for everybody.
23:29
Parole alone comes with its own requirements.
23:32
You have to take certain classes and do certain programing.
23:36
He's been incarcerated for six years.
23:38
He's been trying to get into this programing for six years.
23:42
And it has just they have just availed some of that to him.
23:46
And believe me, I think, you know, I'm a pretty active mom.
23:48
This is with me fighting the entire time
23:52
on his behalf.
23:55
This is what people are up against.
23:57
So people, you know, they they need to do the programing in order to be paroled.
24:02
But when they don't have access to the programing,
24:05
then it's fearful that they didn't participate.
24:08
So these are the things that happen.
24:10
So in the case of Ellis, he was told he should have.
24:14
It was something with a serial number on the television.
24:16
He should have checked the serial number when it was given to him.
24:20
Like that would have been an option.
24:21
So they make it very impossible.
24:23
Now, I am hopeful that with a new leadership,
24:28
that these sorts of punitive actions
24:32
that can be very derailing for people will shift,
24:38
and there will be better training
24:41
for people to just, like objectively look at a situation, say, you know what?
24:47
This is not something this is not a problem.
24:50
You know, this is not an issue.
24:52
But let's focus on what this person needs so that they can leave here
24:56
a whole person there.
25:00
It's it is so clear
25:03
why people
25:05
and it's so clear.
25:11
Where they're failed before they ever enter the system,
25:14
which we need to do a better job with as a state.
25:17
You know, Ellis is taking,
25:22
these courses
25:22
and he's seeing, you know, the type of education
25:26
people have been given, you know, prior to being incarcerated.
25:30
We need to do better, you know, as a state, we need to do,
25:35
he sees how people are treated
25:39
by, you know,
25:42
while they're living in incarceration, that
25:52
there's nothing about it
25:54
that looks at somebody
25:57
as a whole person or from a spiritual perspective.
26:01
You know, it's it's it's terrifying me.
26:03
I can't imagine what any child
26:07
is going through in a, in a situation like that.
26:10
I mean, why, why,
26:11
why do they have to why can't they lead with kindness and compassion?
26:15
And when they have to be aggressive in a situation
26:19
where they need to put their power in front, that's when they use it.
26:22
But the norm should shouldn't be treating people like they're not human.
26:27
Yeah.
26:27
I mean, I understand the, the TV thing. So did he.
26:30
And did you get the TV back? Did he get the TV back?
26:33
And we weren't able to resolve it, but really taking it
26:38
like really fighting it very hard.
26:40
So we were able to of this.
26:43
Does it become a target from shows?
26:45
I watch too many shows. Yeah. Me too. From this guard.
26:48
Then where the guard is, is like, do you know what I'm saying?
26:52
I mean, does the guard then get annoyed with him?
26:55
And now he's a target because he should have got rid of that TV
26:58
and he shouldn't have caused any issues.
26:59
And now look at all these issues that he caused.
27:01
It did it did it did turn into a much bigger situation.
27:05
Okay.
27:06
And a lot of that it's not was me, not Ellis.
27:09
So in full disclosure.
27:10
So, but it's it's the principle,
27:15
you know, it's the principle and it's, you know, it's.
27:21
It's a television.
27:22
The television is really a metaphor. Yes.
27:24
You know. Yeah. Who cares about a television?
27:26
He can get another television. That's not the problem.
27:29
It's a metaphor for people to serve, to be treated with dignity.
27:33
People deserve to be respected.
27:35
And there is such a discrepancy of power.
27:38
Of course there is. It's prison.
27:39
But it's not.
27:42
It's not a way
27:45
to treat people and it's not constructive.
27:48
And that's really, you know.
27:53
That's really the issue here.
27:54
There's nothing constructive about it.
27:56
So television is a television.
27:58
It television doesn't matter.
28:00
It's it's the conditions that people are living in.
28:03
And it's just one more thing.
28:05
You know, he lives in a room where there what ends?
28:09
You know, there are Maisel over the place.
28:11
It's filthy.
28:12
It's the food is disgusting.
28:14
You know, he's living in conditions that no one should be subjected to.
28:18
Okay. You know, and.
28:23
You know, it's just
28:27
like, when is it enough, right?
28:29
You know what's enough? Like, what are we accomplishing?
28:32
So I know that there's a group of people who feel like
28:36
if you've committed a crime, you should be treated like an animal.
28:39
And don't worry, that is happening.
28:41
Yeah, but the people that you treat like animals are coming back into society.
28:45
So like animals, because that's how they've been treated.
28:48
Yeah.
28:49
Like it's just how about for these young people who don't have parents like you?
28:54
Thank you.
28:55
I mean, that's what I'm thinking of.
28:57
Who? Who's advocating for them?
28:59
Well, Denise says yeah I when I, I.
29:03
Oh, good. Good. I'm glad that you're on the.
29:05
Yeah.
29:05
I use as an example but it's not about him.
29:09
Yeah. You know I know that Ellis is going to get it.
29:11
Like we're going to do everything in our power.
29:13
Ellis is going to get a shot when he gets out of prison.
29:15
Yeah, but what about everybody else who is
29:19
in a, you know, who is caught
29:21
up in the system and they just recycled through over and over again?
29:24
Most of the people he socializes with are have been there more than once.
29:30
That should never happen.
29:31
That's a failing on our stage.
29:33
Yeah. Now you asked are people training?
29:36
So that's where I think we started.
29:39
You know, I did a lot of work advocating
29:41
for crisis intervention, team training for police officers.
29:44
Yeah. After Ellis arrest, because that was missing.
29:46
Probably would not have been arrested to begin with if we'd had that. So,
29:52
I am also an advocate to get crisis intervention
29:57
team training for corrections officers and and the Department of Corrections.
30:02
And you know who else is?
30:03
So is the commissioner.
30:04
Oh, wonderful. So, yeah, she needs
30:08
she needs, support from our
30:12
governor's office and her state officials to make that accessible for her.
30:16
There are a lot of employees
30:19
that are required to run the Department of Corrections, and she really need
30:24
support from our government to make sure
30:27
she is resource to do this the right way.
30:31
And she can't push it down.
30:33
You know, it has to be a there are just too many people working there.
30:37
It's got to be a collaborative effort.
30:40
I you know what happened to Ellis?
30:44
It's the product of the system.
30:46
People.
30:47
People are behaving
30:48
in a way that they are trained to behave, and that has to shift.
30:52
You're right.
30:53
So people need to value,
30:57
reform.
30:58
People need to value rehabilitation.
31:02
People need to be I mean.
31:06
You know, there are people who are living in incarceration
31:09
who really just they suffer from mental health issues.
31:13
They suffer from physical health issues.
31:16
They suffer from what's happening with their families
31:19
while they're locked inside.
31:22
You know, like Ellis, you know,
31:27
like the whole age of social media, like, that's foreign to him.
31:31
Like, all these people have to come back into society.
31:35
So, so behind the mark,
31:39
just from being removed from society for so long, I think nothing is happening.
31:44
So prepare them.
31:45
You know, they don't have internet access. Their.
31:47
Ellis has never used AI.
31:49
I use it to him. I try to talk to them.
31:51
I talked to him about how I use it at work and what it is.
31:54
And it's just, you know, everything is going to be so different for him.
31:59
Yes. When he comes out and part, you know,
32:03
I think like one of the conditions of his parole, it's absurd.
32:06
One of the conditions of his parole is that he has to be employed.
32:10
What?
32:11
How can that happen? Yes.
32:12
So how like how does that happen?
32:15
How is that supposed. Has that happened?
32:16
It's ridiculous.
32:18
So he's already set up to fail, you know, and,
32:20
you know, and some of these classes that he has to teach
32:23
so he can't get out of prison unless he has a job.
32:27
I don't know, I don't know how that works.
32:30
Exactly.
32:30
Like how much time he has to get a job, but he has to be employed
32:34
to stay out of prison.
32:36
That is a condition of his parole.
32:38
He has to take these courses that, you know, he hasn't been able to access yet.
32:43
Six years in, it still hasn't been able to access yet.
32:47
And there are other people
32:48
who do access them before their paroles and they wind up in prison.
32:53
So I'm not sure what the value of them is if nobody's supporting them,
32:56
if nobody is right, you know, bringing them to life,
32:58
is it a check the box or are we going to do something with them? So
33:03
a lot has to happen.
33:04
I do think if crisis intervention team training can take place
33:08
in a meaningful way,
33:10
I do think that there can be a shift in the culture
33:14
and that that is really something that has to happen.
33:18
I also really worry about and this is this is the overall culture.
33:22
I do have to say, I visit Ellis every single week,
33:26
and I am often met with people who really seen
33:30
interested in the well-being of the people that they're caring for.
33:34
I just don't feel that that's the overall culture.
33:37
And that's what's happening by and large.
33:39
But I do think that there are some very good people
33:42
who work in our Department of Corrections. Yes,
33:45
who have an interest in rehabilitation and who have an interest in recovery.
33:50
But we have a lot of work to do.
33:53
And I think, you know,
33:55
I think we should be incentivizing corrections officers
34:00
for, for participating in crisis intervention team training.
34:04
And I think we should be applying it to them with each other.
34:08
I think it's
34:10
it must be a very, very difficult job.
34:12
Oh, I can imagine I wouldn't want to work in a prison either.
34:16
You know, you're you're in a prison.
34:18
I wouldn't want to be walking around a place.
34:20
Yeah, that looks like that.
34:22
So we have to do we have to do, better
34:26
for the people who are employed there as well.
34:30
There.
34:32
There's a lot there's a lot that has to be done.
34:35
But I think we can name it and we can define it
34:40
and we can come up with a plan to execute it.
34:44
We have to resource it and we have to fund it as a state.
34:47
If you enjoyed listening to Denise on this episode, please
34:50
stay tuned for our next episode where we continue the conversation.