Latest / The You Project / #1986 A Life Of Design - Debbie Millman

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#1986 A Life Of Design - Debbie Millman · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Gooday team, Welcome to the new project. Craig. Anthony Harper
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: reporting in for Judy as I always do, Tiffany and
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: cook over there at typ Central High.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Top of the morning, Harps, how are you? I'm very good?
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: How are you?
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: You're looking very healthy and very resplendent post COVID. How
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: do you feel?
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I tell you what. It just felt like an overnight
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: recovery with that bad boy. It was very nasty for
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: four days and then I woke up and I was like, oh,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: is that it? Are we good?
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Is that it is?
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: There?
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: No post COVID trauma, no loss of anything, no loss
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: of energy.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: I've done some training now I've been good, no breathless nothing.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: I feel In fact, as I said this to you
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: last night, I feel better because of the rest that
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: it gave me, the mental rest. I feel amazing.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Well, good for you. Maybe I should get it. Maybe
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I should go and lick someone on the face who's
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: got cut. So if anyone's got COVID come out of
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: in my joint. I want to lick your face. That's disgusting.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Debbie Milman High, Hi, Craig, how are you really good?
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Thanks for coming to play on the You project. Have
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: you been smashed by COVID or have you managed to
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: avoid it?
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: I have, somehow, by the grease of all that is
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: good in the world, been able to avoid it.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Well, look at you, ducking and weaving the virus like
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: like some kind of pandemic ninja.
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: Exactly, exactly. Wow.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: And where do we find you? Where are you there?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: I was going to say this morning, this morning for us,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: but this evening for you? Whereabouts are you?
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: I am in Los Angeles, California, where it is seventy
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: degrees and sunny.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Wow, tough gig. Oh, well, somebody's got to It's.
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: A tough in the air, and you know, but somebody's.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Got to do it in the middle of all that adversity.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: You just hang in there, Okay, we'll we'll be thinking
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: about you. So now I had not that this is
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: not a nice thing, but I didn't know who you were.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: And then and then I opened the Debbie Milman door
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: and you're a big deal. And a bunch of my friends,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: mainly women, went, oh my god, she's fantastic. And I went, apparently,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: how does being a big deal sit with you? Is
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: that okay with you?
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: Well, it sort of depends on your definition a big deal.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: I'm certainly not a big deal in the realm of
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: the sort of Oprah spectrum, but in the world of design, i'm,
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: you know, probably a fish in a small barrel kind
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: of thing.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I feel like you're very, very busy. I was reading
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: your bio. By the way, your bio. That's not a bio,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: that's a book. That's a ridiculous bio. You must be
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: very tired because you do a lot of things.
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: But can you talk to all the girls like this?
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: How it's just how I roll. Yeah, that's how I roll.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: It's compliments. I do what I can. You know, I'm
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: working with limited resources. Do you thrive in the middle
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: of the busyness?
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: I think I do.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: I was.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: Reading a bit today about something that's called.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: A version to.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: Quiet, where sometimes people, from psychological point of view, given
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: that you're studying this, sometimes avoid having a moment to
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: really think by being And I think for a long
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: time a lot of my motivation for being busy was that,
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: certainly when I was a lot younger, But these days
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: it's really more a matter of finally, after forty years
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: in the business, getting a lot of the opportunities that
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: I only dreamt of and at this point just being
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: so grateful that those opportunities have at long last presented
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: themselves that I have a hard time turning them down
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: when I wanted them for so long. So you know,
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: I think it's just a matter of trying to do
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: as much as I can. Now that means something to me.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: Before this mortal coil pops off.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Oh come on, come on, that was I reckon, you
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: got a while. I'm not bloody, I'm not a nostrodamis,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: but I reckon, you got a while?
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: You do?
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: You find it easy if you need to do? You
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: find it easy to turn Can you switch off? Can
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: you turn off? Or is that Brian never stopping?
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: I tend to have.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: Trouble with any kind of transition. So as hard as
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: it is for.
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: Me to finally turn off and go to sleep.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: At night, it's as hard for me to turn on
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: and get up out of bed.
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: Oh wow.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: I tend to really enjoy wherever I am in the moment.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: You know, I live both here in LA and also
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: in Manhattan, and so when I'm in La, I love La,
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: and I never want to go back to New York.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: And I'm really sort of anxious.
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: And nervous and stressed out about back, and then when
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: I'm in New York, I'm like, oh, this is great.
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: I just want to see here forever, and then don't
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: want to go back to La. So I tend to sort.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: Of love it where I am and then have a
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: hard time transition. But once they do, then I'm happy
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: here as well.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Now the very brief version of Debbie's bio everyone says
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: in front of Me Rights a designer, educator, artist, brand
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: consultant and host of the podcast The Very Big and
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Famous and Old like one of the oldest podcasts on
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: the planet Design Matters, which I had heard of that
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that was you. But that's that is
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: a big deal in itself. Congratulations. But do you want
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: to expand? Like what is tell Tell the people that
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: don't know you in Australia here, what do you do? Like,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: what's your I know that you're in branding and marketing
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: and design, but tell us what you do and what
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: takes most of your time and energy.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: Okay, So for a long time, for twenty plus years,
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: I was president of a brand consultancy, a global brand
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: consultancy called Sterling Brands. And when I was there, I
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: worked on the design of some of the world's biggest brands,
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: Lots of Pepsi products, lots of Gillette products, lots of
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: Nestling products. At one point, I think in the sort
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: of heyday of my business, I could have walked into
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: a supermarket and about twenty percent of what was there
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: would have been something that I had some involvement with
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: at some point over the twenty years at Sterling, I
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: sold the business to Omnicom, one of the big holding companies,
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: in two thousand and eight.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: Stated at Sterling until twenty sixteen.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: During that time, I also founded the world's first master's
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: program in branding at the School of Visual Arts in
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: New York City, which I still run and that's been
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: now twelve years, which I love.
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: I love doing that.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: I'm one of the owners of printmac dot com, which
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: is the web site for Print magazine, and my partners
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: bought that brand out of bankruptcy from FMW Media and
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: we've been running it now for two years and hope
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: to be able to actually bring back a print edition.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: And I am a podcaster I've been running I founded
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: a podcast in two thousand and five, so it is
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: technically one of the world's longest running podcasts, the first
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: in design, and I'm about to celebrate my seventeenth year
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: in the biz and have a book coming out called
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: Why Design Matters Conversations with the World's most Creative People,
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: which will be out February twenty second and features about
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: sixty interviews, essays by the great Tim Ferris, Roxane Gay,
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: Maria Popova, Stith Heller, and Zach Pettitt, beautiful photographs by
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: some of the most famous photographers in the world, and
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: just exerpts from end quotes from other interviews as well.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: So it's a big labor of love at weighs five pounds,
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: it's one hundred and fifty thousand words and designed by
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: Alex Kalman, who has the distinction of being the offspring
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: of the late great Teaboard Helman and Myrink Helman and
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: now as his own business and is a remarkable designer
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: in his own right.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Do you think that creativity congratulations, that's amizing you are
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: an inspiration. Do you think that creativity is one in night?
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Is it in a night gift or is it something
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: that can be cultivated and developed or a bit of both.
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: I think a bit of both.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, the one thing to look at at children
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: is how freely they come to drawing and playing and
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: making things, whether it be building things with legos, or
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: imagining stories with their barbies, or making things with blocks.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: It just seems to be an innate part of who
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: we are, this notion of creating and making things. Even
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: in our early modern history, in the case of Less
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: scou for example, you know, we were beginning and trying
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: to communicate to each other through drawing symbols to record
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: our experiences and share our wisdom or our whereabouts, and
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: we still do that to this day. I don't think
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: there's any coincidence to the notion of recording our reality
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: on the walls of caves to recording our reality on
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: the walls of Facebook.
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: So I think.
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: That what ends up happening is also actually something that
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: happens on Instagram. Is as we get a little bit older,
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: we begin to compare ourselves to others in our attempts
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: to draw or play with making things, and become self
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: conscious that we might not be as good as others
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: and then stop. Linda Barry talks about this quite a
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: lot in her work The MacArthur genius who works very
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: very closely with both kids and adults to help them
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: find or refine their voice and express their voice. But
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: most people that can't that think they can't draw, just
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: don't draw. And the ability to sketch is actually something
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: that you can learn and the more you do it,
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: the better you'll get at it, just like anything else. Yeah,
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: and I think it's sad that we curtail our creative
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: impulses because we don't think that we're as good as
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: someone else or as good as we want ourselves to be.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: So interesting, my dad is an artist. It's still alive
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: henxiety too. God bless his little socks. And he's a
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: really gifted artist, award winning artist. And I'm more, definitely
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: more creative than I am academic. And you know, when
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I was the first business that I owned was a
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: screen printing business and a graphic design business. When I
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: was eighteen. You didn't know that TIF, did you. I
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: did called Classic screen Printing and anyway, so I had
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: this little micro business and I was working in gyms
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: at the same time, and and I, you know, developed
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of stuff and I've written a few
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: books and all of that. But it was interesting. When
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: I started my doctorate a couple of years ago, I
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: was thinking how dry and how bland, and how scientific
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: and how kind of what's the word? You know, You've
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: got to operate within this, you know, this set structured
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: DEBI and oh my god. But the more that I go,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: I realized that even in science and even in research,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: there's a great deal of creativity because you problem solving
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: and solving problems is tapping into the creative part of
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: your brain, you know, So it's like creativity. Building a
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: business is creative. It's a creative exercise as he is
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: making an astray out of clay, as he is figuring
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: out how to sell a product for a customer. You know,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Like I think, when we think of creativity, we think
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: of the arts. But creativity is so much bigger than that.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: It's pervasive. It's in everything in life. Answering questions, like
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: navigating challenges, in relationships, there's a creative component to it.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: How do I connect with this person in this situation
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: to have a meaningful and healthy conversation is in itself
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: like a creator because you're thinking outside the box. You know.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: It's a big thing, right.
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, I realized a couple of years ago that I
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: was happy whenever I was making something. Now a lesson plan.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: I could be a podcast, it could be a bed.
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: A meal of making something gave me great satisfaction.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: I love that. When did you when? And how did
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: you think? Debbie Milman before anyone else in the world
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: was doing it, I'm going to do a podcast. Where
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: did that come from? Was it cold a podcast then?
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Or was it just some kind of broadcast that morphed
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: into What tell us about that?
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: Sure?
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: Well, in two thousand and four, I got a cold
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: call from at the time a fledgling internet radio network
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: called Voice America, and it came at a time when
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: I was beginning to feel a bit unfulfilled creatively. Ironically,
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: I had really struggled for the first twelve or thirteen
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: years of my career in sort of finding what I
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: wanted to do.
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: I didn't have a lot of direction.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: I fell into branding quite by accident once I did
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: twelve years after I graduated college, so there was some
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: struggle there. I fully dedicated myself to what I was
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: doing because it was the first time in my life
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: that I actually, quite by accident, was successful at anything
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: and gave up all of the other more creative side
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: projects that I had always done my whole life, just to.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: Sort of feel good about living.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: I was quite active in making textiles and sewing.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: My mother was a seamstress, so I did a lot
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: of sewing.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: On my own, needle point drawing, painting, I had a
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: number of art shows. I was always writing, always filling
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: up journals and writing really bad poetry.
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: When I got to Stirling and found.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: This sort of success as a brand consultant, I abandoned
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: everything and just twenty four to seven dedicated myself to
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: the business, which was wonderful for the business, but after
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: about a decade or so, was not as good for
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: my soul, certainly not my creative soul. And just at
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: the time I was feeling this, contacted by the folks
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: at Voice America asking me if i'd be interested in
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: hosting a radio show, an internet radio show about branding,
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: and I thought they were offering me a job, and
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I might get rich doing this,
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: you know, sort of like bugs Bunny with the eyes
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: with the money side spinning, when in fact, what they
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: were really asking me to do was pay them to
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: produce a radio show, so it was really a vanity project.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: But at the time I was so desperate for a
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: purely creative endeavor. I countered to them and said, well,
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: can it be about design? I can certainly inject some
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: branding into it, but that would really make me happy,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: you know, as a creative person, and I was paying them,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: so they said yes, And so that's when February fourth,
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: two thousand and five, Design Matter was Design Matters was
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: born on Voice America and it was broadcast live.
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: It had radio, it had commercials inserted in a woll show.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: It was repeated in the wee hours of the morning,
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: you know, on some dark and stormy night.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: And one of my friends who.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: Had founded the first design blog, Brandy Gomez Plasi, who
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: co founded it with her husband Armand Vitt, suggested that
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: I upload my digital file to iTunes.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: At the time, there was no podcast section as.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: An indie musician, just so that anybody could listen to
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: the show whenever they wanted and they weren't beholden to
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: being in front of their computer or device.
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: In two thousand and five, there was no iPhone yet
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: that they could then listen whenever they wanted.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: On demand Dabbie Millman on demand DMOD.
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: And so that's what I did. I started to upload
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: the show. By October there was.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: A podcast section on iTunes, so I got lucky in
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: that I was one of the first in that section.
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: And I've been doing it ever since. I left America.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: After one hundred episodes, started to independently produce the show
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: and joined forces with the Ted Audio Collective last year.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: I still own the podcast, but they helped me grow
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: the brand, so to speak, and.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: Help me with advertising and whatnot.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: And so it's been the gift of a lifetime and
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: truly unexpected gift of a lifetime.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Congratulations, it's bloody amazing. We just did the same or
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: similar here. We just joined with a big media organization
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: over here called Nova. Shout out to Nova. They've been
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: awesome to us and helping us and you know, getting
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: us abotisers and all of that. I feel Debbie, like
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: people say to me, because I do work a lot, right,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: I do a lot, you know. I have the podcast,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: and I do corporate speaker. I do a lot of
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: other stuff, run programs and mentoring, and I'm studying full time,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: which is a bit crazy. But none of it feels
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: like work. So I never have that. I never had that.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: I never had that experience of feeling overworked. I might
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: feel a little bit tired, but I feel like, if
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: you have a podcast like you do or I do,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: it's one of the biggest scams ever because I get
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: to talk to you. I'm never talking to you if
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: I don't have this podcast, I'm never even getting through
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: to the person who's three rungs below you. Right If
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: I want to try to get to you, and I'm
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: just Craig Harp with the buff ed from Melbourne, there's
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: zero chance I get to talk to you. But because
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: of this wellout no no, no, no, that's true. Trust me.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: No one's letting me in the front door. But you know,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: because we have this thing, you know, we get to
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: you get to I get to talk to all these
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: brilliant people with great minds, great stories, great experiences, great insights,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: and I feel like I get free coaching seven days
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: a week.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: Well, I feel the same way her.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: You know, I would never be able to have Simon
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: Sinak or Malcolm Gladwell.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm so jealous by the way. Malcolm Gladwell
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: bloody hell.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's amazing, and he's actually become a friend over
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: the decade.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: All right, stop bragging, all right, stop it.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: Were friendly, I wouldn't you know, he's not like my
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: best vote or anything.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: You know. I had to say to Oprah, listen, stop calling.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: It's fucking annoying. Okay, like back off, back off, Oprah. No,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: it's well, you know her whole on turage's very annoying.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: She's super needy. I said, listen, I'll get back to
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: you when I can. Look, I got a lot on
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: I'll see what I can do.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I don't want to take a too hard left turn,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: but I feel like I'm not going to do your story.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: How what have we got about twenty five minutes justice?
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: If I don't get you to share as much or
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: as little as you want. I read about I read
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: this one line that I went, I have to I
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: have to talk about that. And the line was for
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: the first eight ten years of my life, I lived
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: in a state of constant terror, and I compensated with art.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Can you share about that for us?
• 20:16
  Speaker 6: Well?
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: I had a really rough as a lot of people
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: have a really rough childhood. My parents got divorced when
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: I was eight after a really turbulent marriage, and my
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: mother ended up very quickly remarrying someone who was a
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: criminal and who was extremely abusive to me, also to
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: his own children and my brother, but with me in
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: particular because he was also sexually abusive to me, and
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: so that that really for four years, really impacted my psyche.
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: I lived in terror every day.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: That he was going to attack me, and it wasn't
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: it wasn't just sexuals also physical.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: So he beat us.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: And he was a really bad dude, and that really
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: took a toll on who I was at the time
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: and who I've become, But less so now in that
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: I've feel like I've worked through quite a lot of
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: it in therapy for a very very long time now
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: as a result work to help eliminate sexual violence in
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: our culture. I do a lot of work with an
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: organization called the Joyful Heart Foundation, where we have sought
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: to eradicate a real challenge that we have, certainly in
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: the United States, with what's known as a rape kit backlog.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: So after a person is raped, evidence is collected from
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: their body. It's an arduous experience polease and doctors and
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: so forth, and that evidence is put into what's called
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: a rape kit, and that that can be used to.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: Find the perpetrator through DNA evidence and so forth.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Over the decades, there's been a real backlog to these
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: kits where they're not used to find perpetrators based on
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: the whole slew of reasons, whether the police feel that
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: somebody is a good enough victim, and a whole slew
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: of reasons. So we've been working to do that in
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: the United States and have been very, very successful in
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: doing this, and I hope that we'll be able to
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: eradicate the rape kit backlog by the end of this decade,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: if not sooner. So in many ways, while I would
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: not wish my background on anyone, I think that working
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: through that background in the way that I have has
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: really helped me take a lot of that energy and
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: try to use it to make the world a better place.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it gives you, you know, sadly, but I guess
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: maybe for the benefit of others, it gives you a
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: perspective and an understanding of what happens that isn't spoken
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: about enough and isn't addressed enough, And you know, good
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: for you, I'm so sorry to hear that, But at
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: the same time, good for you for what you've been
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: able to do proactively and positively Off the back of that,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: do you consciously step into lean into things that are hard, Like,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: do you choose to step into discomfort? I feel like
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: maybe you just maybe you do or do you avoid it?
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, I think the opposite.
• 23:35
  Speaker 7: Really, Yes, Yes, I am a person that lose discomfort,
• 23:42
  Speaker 7: and I'm talking about both sort of tangible discomfort like
• 23:47
  Speaker 7: labels on shirts.
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: The person I had to do before anything.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: Is cut off all the labels because I don't like
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: the way it feels.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: I only like to wear really comfortable shoes.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: You know. I'm a for clean and I really don't
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: like to be in any kind of.
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: Discomfort at all. Maybe that comes from my upbringing.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: And sort of what I experienced in my body physically
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: when I'm younger.
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: I really don't like discomfort.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: And then the other part is, and I've studied this
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: quite a bit, the way that the human body responds
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: to trauma and fear with you know, in the reptilian brain,
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: which is the oldest part of the brain, which is
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: a part of the brain that you can't control it.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: Everything that happens that's motivated in the reptilian brain is involuntary,
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: and so a lot of the responses that we have
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: to fear are involuntary.
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: If we were walking across the street nearly hit by
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: a bicyclist.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: We wouldn't demand our bodies manufacture adrenaline.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: It would happen involuntarily.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: And so I think that most people that are saying
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: things like oh, I'll do that when I feel better
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: about X. So when I feel more confident about why,
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: you know, those things don't happen. You have to intention
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: only sort of lean into the discomfort and Craig, I
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: do almost everything I can to avoid that until I
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: have no other.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: Choice, but do it.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like you've done it. I
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: feel yeah, you say that, but you've done a lot
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: of hard stuff, right, You've built this brand and business,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: and you yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: I might.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: It wasn't like I was intending to start a podcast.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: It was an offer. It wasn't an aspiration. I didn't
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: grow up thinking I want to be a podcast coach
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: to day or I want to be a brand consultant.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: That wasn't it.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: A lot of these experiences happened quite by accident, and
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: because I wasn't as invested in them being as successful
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: as they could be.
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: There was not a sense of, well.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: If I don't do this, well I'm a failure. It
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: was more I'm being given this opportunity. It's not what
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: I chose, but I'm going to try it because it
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: sounds really interesting, and then ended up really enjoying do
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: them and then working to build them. So there was
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: a little bit less at stake in terms of my
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: entry point into these things. It wasn't like I decided
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: when I was little, I want to be Madonna.
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: And then went and tried to become Madonna. You know.
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: It wasn't like that type of driven.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: What what are the things that you are naturally good at?
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Like just gifts that like, I'm naturally good at this,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: and what are the things that you've worked to get
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: good at.
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: I'm naturally good at.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: Looking at a person and saying that person kind of
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: looks like that person, don't they? Now it might not
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: be somebody famous like Craig, you look like an old
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: neighbor I named Alan Silverman.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Shout out to Al, just just saying.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: Tiffany looks like one of my former students named Kelsey. Wow,
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: I got to do that instantly, instantly, I can't help it.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: And I'll say that to friends like does and so
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: and so look like so and so and they're.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: Like, oh my god, now that you say that they do.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: That's inherent talent that I have. I think it comes
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: from pattern recognition. I also have an incredibly good ear,
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: so when I hear a song, I'll be able to say, Oh,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: that's going to be a big hit. I just have
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: that ability. I'll also be able to say that's not
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: going to be a big hit, and I generally am
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: right about that too. What else am I good at?
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: I can write perfectly mirror backwards, so you can tell
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: me anything and I could write it mirror backwards, show
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: it to you, and I can do it instantly as
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: if I were writing frontwards.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: You're good at turning four words into an acronym in
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: less than one second, like Debbie Milman on Demand DMD.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: I'm like, that came out of your ma. That came
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: out of your mouth before I even finished. I'm like,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: that is a very quick brain. I don't know if
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: anyone else picked that up, but you said that so quickly.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: That is data process at its fondest.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you, I think again it comes from
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: pattern recognition that that is probably one of my biggest gifts.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: And that would also give you a long list of
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: things that I'm not good at.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: What about the things that you've had to that you
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: for for your journey, you needed to get good at
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: that you had to work on that perhaps weren't natural
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: you know, talents.
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: Well, certainly podcasting. If you listen to my early shows,
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: they're unlistenable. I'm with you, may too, It's I think
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: it takes a long time to get really good at
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: anything unless you're a prodigy.
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: I mean, if you think about how.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: We grow and develop when we're born, you know, we
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: can't walk on our own, we can't eat on our own,
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: we can't manage our bathroom facilities on our own.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: You know, we have to learn all of these things,
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: and some of the things take some time. Like you know,
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: there are young kids.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: You know, my nephew, for example, took him until he
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: was five to be fully potty trained.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: It doesn't even seem.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: Possible that it would take some time like that, Like
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: it seems so natural for us and so unthinkable to
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: have any other way of relieving ourselves now. But it
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: really takes quite a long time to do those things.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: And if we can do them well, you know, then
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: we'll have if we are able, walking confidence or talking confidence.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: But we live in it in a time where I think,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: because of this speed of technology, there is this sense
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: that we should be able to do anything and everything
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: really really well out of the gate, just by this
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: year of virtue of wanting to And you know, I
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: tell my students that almost anything worthwhile takes a long time.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: And again, unless you're a prodigy, why would we expect
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: that we could be a great designer or a great podcaster,
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: or a great market researcher, or great trend forecaster, or
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: great anything without.
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: Spending the time to master that.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: Discipline, which takes a really long time most of the time.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: I always say, you can't get good at what you
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: want to do, and you can't master what you avoid.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: You know, Oh I want to steal that, Yeah, steal it,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: feel free. Can't get good at what you won't do
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: or what you don't do. And I mean even with us,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: you know, we're nearly seven hundred episodes deep, and for
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: the first three hundred episodes, we made a dollar thirty
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: seven a show, and you know, I was my mum
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: and three of her friends listening, and you know, it's
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: it's like, this is this is the training, this is
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: the apprenticeship. You know. With everything that I've done, I'm
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: not naturally very talented or gifted, but I've done really
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: well at some things. But it's only because I've persevered,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: you know, and learning to run a business, learning to lead,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: learning to create teams, learning to keep clients, customers happy.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: All of those things were just when I started. I
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: had no idea I had, you know, even as in
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: corporate speaking, I've been standing in front of audiences for
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: thirty years, but I never did a speaking course. I've
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: never done a podcasting course. I've you know, I talk
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: about human be maybe my whole life with people, but
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: it's only now I'm actually listen researching it officially, you know.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: And I just think there's that people learn differently. Even
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: though I'm doing my doctorate, I'm very I'm more of
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: an experiential learner. That's how I learn best, is that
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: the call face is doing stuff and interacting with humans
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: and kind of learning that way. Is that similar for you?
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: Very much? Very much. I tend to really struggle at
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: the beginning of anything because I've grown to.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: A point where I get very impatient with myself for
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: not being good at something when I try it, and
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: when I'm not good at something, I then don't want
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: to do it because I don't like the feeling of
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: not being good at something. But I have to work
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: through that, and that's a learned a learned way of living,
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: because otherwise I won't be able to end up being
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: good at.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: Anything if I don't put in the time and the effort.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: And I resist doing things that I.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: Don't feel like i'm good at because I don't want
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: to be embarrassed or humiliate myself. But that's really necessary.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: Although I do have to say that when I was
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: first starting the podcast, I didn't really have this sense
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: that I.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: Was as bad as I was.
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, because I might not have continued. I
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: actually put my heart and soul into doing it.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: It's only looking.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: Back, you know, years and years and years later and
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: listening to these unlistenable episodes that I thought, oh my god,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: what was they doing?
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, but for the time, with the skill
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: you had, the understanding, the experience, the resources, you know,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: it was for where you were at. It was probably
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: as good as you could do and be. And absolutely
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: I look back at my stuff to it. I literally
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: say to my listeners, don't listen to the first time
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: if you've just joined us and knew that in new
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: pro new to this podcast, don't start at number one, Definitely,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: don't start just start In the last hundred or so,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: it dawns on me that branding in a way intersex
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: with psychology.
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: Oh my god.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I mean it's essentially psych understanding what's going to make people,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: what's going to attract Correct me if I'm wrong, But like,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: it's how do we attract people, how do we get
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: people's attention, how do we get them to want to
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: buy or at least consider this product or this service
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: or this brand. There's a huge amount of psychology in
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: branding and marketing, right.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, economic psychology, behavioral psychology.
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, that's the part I find most fascinating.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even with I had three podcasts before this which
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: were all very niche, and one of them was the
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Australian Fitness Podcast right, and it was a good show.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: But it's just for what I wanted, which was broad connection.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: The problem in inverted Comma's that as a concept and
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: shout out to Uss, my friend who now has that podcast.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: I gave him. I handed over the reins and he's
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: doing a great job. But the problem is that ninety
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: percent of Australians are going to go you know, that
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: doesn't interest me. It's just I want to listen to
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: something more global or broad or you know, so even
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: trying to come up with like I remember thinking, how
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: do I build something where I can not pigeonhole myself
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: but I can talk about whatever I want, as long
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: as it's about the human experience, whether or not it's
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: finance or business, or relationships or dealing with grief or
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: mental health staff or childhood trauma, or how to build
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: a business or grow a brand, or how to laugh
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: your ass off. It's silly shit, you know, It's like,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: there's no And it took me quite a while to
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: figure out how to build something big enough that had
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: a broad appeal. But even that is a psychological kind
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: of a process of getting there.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I actually feel very similarly in the evolution
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: of Design Matters. Initially, when I launched the show, it
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: was designers talking about design very inside.
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: Baseball, as they'd say.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: And what I began to realize is that I was
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: interested in not just talking to designers, but really any
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: type of creative thinker, and that includes scientists, to really
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: understand how they went about designing their lives and their careers.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: And that was as important to me as what they
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: were making, you know, how they were making it, how
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: they approached what they were making was as important as
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: what they made.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Now I have a weird request. So one of my friends,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: So a friend of mine got blown up a few
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: years ago in an industrial accident. His names John, and
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: I've been training him for four years, rehabbing him, and
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: they said he'd never walk in all that stuff anyway.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Good news is his but his wife, her name's Jenny
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Shembry Portelli, we call a JSP. She loves you. When
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: she heard you were come up on the podcast, she
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: was like a fucking kid at Christmas. She's like, how
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: did you get her? Oh my god? I'm like, well,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: tifted that it's not I don't do that. So one
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: could you say hello to JSP for me? It will
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: make her life.
• 36:18
  Speaker 6: Hey, JSP, it's so so so nice to meet you.
• 36:23
  Speaker 6: And guess what I'm going to be in Melbourne in March,
• 36:26
  Speaker 6: so if you want to meet, I would.
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: Be very very happy to do that.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: I'm coming for a couple of speaking events and would
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: love to be able to say high in person.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Well, now I'm jealous, and what about me? Though? The
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: only child reaches out puts up, what about me as well?
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: Be in Sydney and in Melbourne and.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: Meet there from March eleventh through the sixteen.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Now I well, we're definitely going to catch up. I'm
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: going to buy you a skinny cappuccino or something. What
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: do you drink? What's your preferred beverage?
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: Prosecco?
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I don't even know what that is. That's way too
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: fancy for me. What is that?
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: It's Italian champagne. Essentially, you can't see this. It comes
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: from France.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: We're talking to the man who's never had alcohol, so
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: that's just okay.
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: Well, then in alt No.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: I'll buy you a prosecco if I can find that.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: So I said, Jenny could ask you one question, and
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: her question was okay. She wrote, as a woman in
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: my sixties, I'm really interested to hear what Debbie is
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: looking forward to doing in her sixties. By the way,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: and I'm not even being nice sometimes I say this
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: to people because I'm trying to be nice. Are you
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: fifty eight or nine or something? Did I read sixty?
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: You look so stupidly young. Now, I know I say
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: this a lot, folks. I mean, you look like a tiff. Really?
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: How old does she look? Forty? I know I shouldn't
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: say she. How old does Debbie look like? You look forty?
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: Thank you? Thank you.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: I look twenty six years older than you.
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: My mother really looked quite young until she hit seventy,
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: and then it was all downhill from there.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well you've got a good ten years, dude.
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: So just yeah, that's what I'm hoping.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just strap in. What are you looking forward to
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: in your sixties? That was the question from Jenny.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: Well, I know this is going to sound super lame, Jenny,
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: but I'm really hoping to just stay healthy because I
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: love the place that I am in my life, and
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: I want to keep being able to do all the things.
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: That I'm doing.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: And with everything that's happened with COVID and I had
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: ended up having an emergency at indectomy last year, it
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: really gave me a sense of First of all, I
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: had never stayed overnight in a hospital for myself since
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: I was four years old. I had a hernia out
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: operation when I was four years old, so that's fifty
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: six years ago. I was born with it and it
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: was discovered when I was four. Other than that, the
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: only times I've ever stayed overnight in the hospital were
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: to be there for other people and help my.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: Family members or my friends.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: To be in a hospital ben and have that sense
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: of helplessness and lack of freedom and fear, especially during
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: COVID times, was really really scary, and it gave me
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: a perspective of feeling like health is wealth, and that's
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: what I'm looking to try to maintain as far as
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: my sixties, I'd actually like to have a sense of
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: having less fs to give.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: You can use the whole word, but I appreciate your
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: decora it.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: I feel like I have less fucks to give, and
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: every year I feel like I have less tolerance for
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: more fucks, and so I am really looking forward to
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: more of that, more freedom to say what I think
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: and not be as much of a people pleaser as
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: I've been. I've spent my whole life just trying to
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: get everybody to be happy, and I don't want to
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: feel like I have to do that anymore, and I'm
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: feeling less and less committed to having to do that.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: Well, good for you, because that is a that is
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: an exhausting paradigm to live in, the people pleasing paradigm,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: your ice, We love you. Thank you for answering gsp
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: slash Jenny's question. Where can people find you? Follow you
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: by your books, connect with you, send you, abstain amounts
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: of money for no reason? Where can I do that?
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: On Instagram and Twitter?
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: I'm just at Debbie Melman d E B B I
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: E M I L L M A N.
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: Also my website Debbie.
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: Melman dot com on the podcast, so I have a
• 41:11
  Speaker 5: lot of different ways you can reach out and love
• 41:13
  Speaker 5: to hear from people and do my very very best
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: to answer people perfect.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Stay there, we'll say goodbye off air. Thank you so much,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Debbie Milman. The podcast is Design Matters. Check that out.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: It's it's almost as good as this podcast, but so
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: make it your second. Make it your second favorite podcast
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: and tune into. Debbie. Thank you so much for being
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: on the project.
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Craig, Thank you, Tiffany, Thanks
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Tiff Thank you Thanks guys, Thanks Debbie, thanks everyone.