Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 408] Bruce Springsteen: Why His 1973–1987 Run Will Never Be Matched with David Starkey

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[EP 408] Bruce Springsteen: Why His 1973–1987 Run Will Never Be Matched with David Starkey · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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  Speaker 1: He had pretty much kept his politics under his hat
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: until that point. He was a left-leaning guy. But when
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  Speaker 1: that song was something that was going to be used
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  Speaker 1: for Ronald Reagan campaign appearances, he thought, that's not right.
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  Speaker 1: That's not what that song is about. That song is
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  Speaker 1: the opposite of the way it's being used. We're totally booked.
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  Speaker 1: Rock and roll! Well, I think I'll leave you to
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  Speaker 1: your reading. Little hand says it's time to rock and roll.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Rock and roll! We are totally booked.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Booked on Rock, conversations with authors, musicians,
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  Speaker 2: and insiders revealing the stories behind classic rock's greatest songs, albums,
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  Speaker 2: and artists. We've got an episode on Bruce Springsteen coming up.
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  Speaker 2: Want to remind you, if you go to oldglory.com, you
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: can pick up some Springsteen merchandise, along with plenty of
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: other bands and artists there. You get 15% off by
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: using the promo code BookedOnRock. Just click the link in
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: the show notes or visit BookedOnRock.com and head to My Deals.
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  Speaker 2: All right, so let's get to it. Our guest is
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  Speaker 2: David Starkey. He's the author of Bruce Springsteen, 1973 to 1987.
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  Speaker 2: Every album, every song, it is part of Sonic Bond's
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  Speaker 2: on-track series. Welcome to the show, David.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it's great to be here. Thank you, Eric.
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  Speaker 2: This is a first-time appearance for you, and this is
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  Speaker 2: one of my favorite artists of all time, Bruce Springsteen.
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  Speaker 2: I was telling you I was listening to Tunnel of
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  Speaker 2: Love on my way to work this morning, and then
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  Speaker 2: on my way home, I was jamming Born in the USA.
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  Speaker 2: And boy, what a catalog from 73 to 87. Let's
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  Speaker 2: start there. Why that certain period?
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  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I know you've, you've interviewed other on-track
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  Speaker 1: authors before. If the artist has a huge catalog like Springsteen,
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  Speaker 1: you sort of get a chance to pick what you
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  Speaker 1: want to do. And to me, those first nine albums
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  Speaker 1: are really kind of the core of everything. So, and
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  Speaker 1: they're also my favorite too. I mean, I was born
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  Speaker 1: in 1962. I, I, bought that first album when I
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  Speaker 1: was like 11. I'm not sure how in the world
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  Speaker 1: that came into my hands. But I really listened carefully
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  Speaker 1: as a teenager to Born to Run and especially my
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  Speaker 1: favorite album, Darkness on the Edge of Town. So, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I just have a kind of a deep abiding feeling
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  Speaker 1: for these songs, I think.
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  Speaker 2: What's interesting about this book is that you approach it
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  Speaker 2: as both a longtime rock musician, but also a poet.
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  Speaker 2: You are a poet. Did those two sides of you
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  Speaker 2: ever disagree about a song? The music's working brilliant here,
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  Speaker 2: but the words did not or vice versa?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think quite a bit. You know,
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  Speaker 1: it's funny. I grew up when I was a teenager
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  Speaker 1: wanting to be a rock star and I played in
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  Speaker 1: bands and I play in bar bands now and have
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  Speaker 1: for the last 30 years. So I do have a
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  Speaker 1: lot of musical experience in that genre. But mostly I'm
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  Speaker 1: a poet. If you were to see me in my
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  Speaker 1: hometown of Santa Barbara, that's how you'd identify me. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: it's David Starkey. He's a poet. So, yeah, it's an
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  Speaker 1: interesting kind of conjunction. I don't believe that great lyrics
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  Speaker 1: necessarily are great poetry and vice versa. But I think
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  Speaker 1: Springsteen is one of the best lyricists. Anyway, back to
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  Speaker 1: your question. So like I'm thinking about you mentioned you
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  Speaker 1: were listening to Born in the USA on your ride.
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  Speaker 1: I think of that song Cover Me, which is a
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  Speaker 1: great song. It's got one of the great Springsteen solos
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  Speaker 1: in it. I don't know that the lyrics are that great.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I mean, it's not that inventive. They're okay.
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  Speaker 1: But that would be an example where I think, oh,
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  Speaker 1: the music here is more powerful. You know, on the
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  Speaker 1: other end of the spectrum, I'm not as big a
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  Speaker 1: fan of Nebraska as maybe a lot of people are.
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  Speaker 1: And so the music there, I think, probably isn't super
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  Speaker 1: engaging aside from, say, Atlantic City or Reason to Believe
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  Speaker 1: or the title song. And then sometimes I feel like
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  Speaker 1: both the music and the poetry are not that great.
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  Speaker 1: My pick for that would be Wild Billy's Circus Story
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  Speaker 1: on the Wild Innocent E Street Shuffle. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: if you remember that one. I do. It has Gary
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  Speaker 1: Talent playing tuba on it, which is an odd rock instrument.
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  Speaker 1: But then when the two come together, like Jungle Land
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  Speaker 1: or Thunder Road or Darkness on the Edge of Town
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  Speaker 1: or The River or whatever, we could go on and on.
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  Speaker 1: Then I feel like, wow, no wonder Springsteen has this
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  Speaker 1: reputation as one of the great songwriters of the last century,
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  Speaker 1: because he can really put poetry and music together in
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  Speaker 1: a way that few other people can.
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  Speaker 2: Let's start now with the first album, 73's Greetings from
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  Speaker 2: Asbury Park, New Jersey. Springsteen promoted as a singer-songwriter in
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  Speaker 2: the tradition of Bob Dylan, but the album's strongest moments
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  Speaker 2: often come from the full band. Was Columbia trying to
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  Speaker 2: turn him into an artist that he was never meant
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  Speaker 2: to be in the first place?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's no question about that. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: the weakest songs for me on that album are Mary,
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  Speaker 1: Queen of Arkansas, and The Angel. which are probably the closest,
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  Speaker 1: purest examples of singer-songwriter material. And then I think the
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  Speaker 1: strongest songs are songs like Blinded by the Light or
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  Speaker 1: For You or Spirit in the Night. And those are rockers,
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  Speaker 1: like you just said, with the full band. That said,
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  Speaker 1: I do think my favorite song on that album is
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  Speaker 1: Lost in the Flood, which is maybe somewhere in the middle.
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  Speaker 1: It is a singer-songwriter type of but it has kind of,
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  Speaker 1: you know, this rock underpinning to it.
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  Speaker 2: Well, the album did receive good reviews, but it sold poorly,
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  Speaker 2: but critics, they mostly heard Springsteen through the comparisons to Dylan.
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  Speaker 2: What did greetings reveal about him that the audiences and
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  Speaker 2: the critics weren't yet prepared to recognize Bruce?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the biggest one was that he
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  Speaker 1: wasn't the next Bob Dylan after all. Um, you know, um,
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  Speaker 1: I think that might've been a surprise to Springsteen himself
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  Speaker 1: a little bit. Um, that when he, just before he
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  Speaker 1: got that contract, he was doing a lot of gigs, uh,
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  Speaker 1: where he was just himself and his guitar. And I
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  Speaker 1: think it might've convinced himself that that was, um, maybe
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  Speaker 1: who he was, even though, you know, he, he made
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  Speaker 1: his bones and spent his, his teen and early, very
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  Speaker 1: early twenties playing, you know, in cover bands and rock bands,
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  Speaker 1: surf bands. So it was, he really was a rocker. Um,
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  Speaker 1: You know, I think it also showed maybe that he
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  Speaker 1: could write a singable tune, a rock tune. But I
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  Speaker 1: would say, you know, as much as I admire that album,
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  Speaker 1: if that had been his only record and he had disappeared,
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  Speaker 1: I think he'd just be kind of a footnote in
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  Speaker 1: pop music history.
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  Speaker 2: He followed it later that year with The Wild, The
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  Speaker 2: Innocent and The E Street Shuffle. And he said this
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  Speaker 2: was the album where he began discovering who he was
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  Speaker 2: and where he wanted to go. what did he find
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  Speaker 2: that was still missing from his debut?
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  Speaker 1: That album was released literally in the same year, as
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  Speaker 1: you just said, um, I think 10 or 11 months, uh,
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  Speaker 1: later during that time that the band had been playing
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  Speaker 1: kind of nonstop. And so there's clearly, you know, it's,
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  Speaker 1: it's a band album. Um, it's, it's written around a band, um,
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  Speaker 1: rather than having the band grafted onto the songs, maybe
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  Speaker 1: as they are sometimes in, um, in Asbury Park, he
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  Speaker 1: cuts down on his verbosity a little bit. So we
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  Speaker 1: have two big songs like Sandy and Rosalita that stand
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  Speaker 1: the test of time. There's a lot of words in there,
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  Speaker 1: but it's not quite as many words per beat as
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  Speaker 1: you get in some of those songs on the first album.
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  Speaker 1: And then I would also say it's a much more
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  Speaker 1: ambitious album musically. You know, there's that final song on
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  Speaker 1: their New York City serenade, which seems like it's maybe
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  Speaker 1: a little bit of a precursor to Jungleland. There's beautiful
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  Speaker 1: piano in the beginning with David Sanchez. And so, you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's just a lot more ambitious and a more rock
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  Speaker 1: and roll album.
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  Speaker 2: The first song I became a fan of Bruce through
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  Speaker 2: the song Rosalita. When I was a kid, MTV played
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  Speaker 2: that live video.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: If you remember that book. you know, I just took
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  Speaker 2: to that. I just, there was something about that song.
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't a pop song. It wasn't the type of
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  Speaker 2: song where like a 10, 11, 12 year old would
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  Speaker 2: be into it. The energy that he was, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the energy coming off of him in that performance and
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  Speaker 2: he gets up on the piano and he's just so
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  Speaker 2: into it. I couldn't help, but love that song. And
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  Speaker 2: I had no idea what album it was off of,
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  Speaker 2: knew nothing about the guy, you know, and then eventually
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  Speaker 2: of course I, I.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, he is one of the great performers
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  Speaker 1: of all time. There's no doubt about that.
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  Speaker 2: So then we get two years later, we get to,
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  Speaker 2: The album where he breaks through nationally, and that's with
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  Speaker 2: 1975's Born to Run, and you describe it as the
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  Speaker 2: moment when his characters become more believable and universal. How
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  Speaker 2: did that growth in his writing shape the opening track,
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  Speaker 2: Thunder Road? Let's start there. And do you believe Mary
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  Speaker 2: ultimately gets into the car? I'm going to answer that
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  Speaker 2: question first.
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  Speaker 1: I think Mary most definitely gets into the car because
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  Speaker 1: her other option are a town full of losers and
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  Speaker 1: guys who are grabbing at her graduation gown. Versus this
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  Speaker 1: guy who's pulling out of there to win. So I
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  Speaker 1: definitely think she hops in at the end. But yeah,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I think the characters are more realistic.
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  Speaker 1: And a lot of that has to do, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I really think he had a rhyming dictionary for those
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  Speaker 1: first two albums and he was just rhyming like nuts.
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  Speaker 1: You know, he would sometimes have the same rhyme three
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  Speaker 1: or four times in a single line. That sort of
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  Speaker 1: gets pared away and that allows him a little bit
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  Speaker 1: more flexibility to write like a short story writer or
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  Speaker 1: something like that or like a poet. So I think
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  Speaker 1: that's part of it. You know, he was 24 when
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  Speaker 1: he's writing those songs. That sounds kind of young to me.
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  Speaker 1: I'm 64. 64. But he had already written two albums.
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  Speaker 1: He'd been playing in bands for years. I think he
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  Speaker 1: was such a hard worker. And he's so good at
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  Speaker 1: picking out the best version of his songs. He's a
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  Speaker 1: relentless reviser. If you look at that book, Songs, you
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  Speaker 1: can see how many times he goes through the lyrics
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  Speaker 1: of any given song. It's just remarkable. And he'll sometimes
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  Speaker 1: just change, like.
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  Speaker 1: Is not to ain't or vice versa, you know, put
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  Speaker 1: it back and forth. So he's really, really careful there.
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  Speaker 1: I think all those things make it a lot more
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  Speaker 1: possible for him to make these people who feel like
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  Speaker 1: they're real three-dimensional human beings.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: 10th Avenue frees out. That presents Clarence Clemons' arrival as
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: the moment loneliness turns into celebration. Stephen Van Zandt also
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: created a torn arrangement on the spot. What did these
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  Speaker 2: two men contribute to Springsteen's developing identity beyond their musical abilities?
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  Speaker 1: One of the things I learned as I was writing
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  Speaker 1: this book was that Clemens and Springsteen did not hang
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  Speaker 1: out very much off the road. Clarence Clemens' life was
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  Speaker 1: just way too chaotic for Springsteen, who was famously kind
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  Speaker 1: of a control freak. But I think he was really
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  Speaker 1: important for Springsteen's conception of the band. When David Sanchez
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  Speaker 1: leaves after the second album, Clarence Clemons is the only
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  Speaker 1: African-American member of that band. He's playing the saxophone. which is,
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  Speaker 1: you know, the soul instrument, the instrument from soul reviews
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  Speaker 1: that Springsteen was so enamored of. And so I think
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  Speaker 1: that's really important. And when you see them on stage together,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: you know, you can see how much that camaraderie is
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  Speaker 1: important and how much in a way Springsteen kind of
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  Speaker 1: relies on Clemens being over there, usually on his right
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  Speaker 1: hand side, just as this kind of bulwark, you know,
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  Speaker 1: against whatever else is going on. And, and, You know,
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  Speaker 1: when Clemens is playing the tambourine sometimes, it doesn't matter.
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  Speaker 1: He's just out there and he's an important person. You
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  Speaker 1: just mentioned that famous moment about Jungle Land where Springsteen
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  Speaker 1: is telling Clarence Clemens how to play every single note
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  Speaker 1: on that famous saxophone solo. And that is, to me,
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  Speaker 1: this kind of weird, emblematic moment because on the one hand,
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  Speaker 1: that solo is so great. It's just burned in our brains.
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  Speaker 1: But to think that Clemens had so little artistic agency
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  Speaker 1: that he couldn't make any of it up. It just,
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  Speaker 1: and you know, there's right down just before the tape
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  Speaker 1: is sent off to the record plant for pressing, Springsteen
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  Speaker 1: is still making sure that every last note that he
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  Speaker 1: hears is on the record the way that he wants it.
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  Speaker 1: To go back to Steven Van Zandt, I mean, you know,
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  Speaker 1: he doesn't play on Born to Run, even though they're
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: touring right after this point. He's a big part of
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Darkness on the Edge of Town up through Born in
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: the USA. But I like his influence a lot. And
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: I've seen him live a few times. You know, he's
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: got a little bit more of a devil may care attitude.
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  Speaker 1: If the band isn't super tight, it's all right. You know,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: we're having fun. And, you know, Springsteen does have this
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  Speaker 1: sort of way of getting kind of a little bit grandiose,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: even though I love Jungle Land. It's a big, you know, song.
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  Speaker 1: I would almost call it a poem. And I think
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Van Zandt kind of sort of cuts him down to
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: size a little bit. You mentioned when we were emailing
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: that your favorite album is Tunnel of Love. And, you know,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Van Zandt famously said, this album sucks. People don't want
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: to hear about you. They want to hear about themselves. So,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: you know, he's just a good foil for Springsteen. And
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  Speaker 1: I think that's where if Clemens is the bulwark always
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: supporting him, then Van Zandt is kind of the little
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: gnat buzzing around his ear.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, they had that falling out, but they got back
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: together and they've been together since. Yeah. Let's continue with
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Jungle and a little bit more now. Let's talk about
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  Speaker 2: the lyrics to this. He writes that the poets stand
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: back and let it all be, even though he was
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: obsessively documenting and reshaping this world. Does that contradiction suggest
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: that he saw himself as a participant, an observer, or
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: both in this song?
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  Speaker 1: I think the answer is both. I mean, that's one
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  Speaker 1: of my favorite lines, obviously, since I'm a poet. But
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  Speaker 1: it's kind of a weird, almost Buddhist thing, you know?
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: The best poetry simply exists without having to be recorded.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: And so I kind of always think that way. It's
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: got this kind of mysterious back and forth element to it. And,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the things that Springsteen wrote about,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: he never experienced himself. For instance, you know, he always
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: says that he never worked a day in his life
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: in manual labor. even though that's what so many of
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: his songs are about. So I think he is both
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: that poet down there who stands back and lets it
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: all be and says nothing at all. But he's also,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: that's just another one of the characters in that song.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: And then the legal dispute happens next. And after that
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: lengthy legal dispute with his former manager, Mike Appel, Springsteen
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: returned with 78's Darkness on the Edge of Town, your
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: personal pick. Improve it all night. The chorus suggests sex,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: but the verses are about hunger, sacrifice, and pursuing a dream.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: What does the narrator believe he has to prove in
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: this song?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: You know, I think he has to prove everything. That's
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: what I think he has to prove throughout that entire album,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: that he's got it sexually, but that he can make it.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: And the whole world is against him. his own psyche
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: is against him. We know that, that, um, Springsteen struggled
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: with mental illness for a long time. Uh, and it
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: was undiagnosed and untreated, um, here in the late seventies.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: So I think that's part of what he's, he's trying
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: to prove that he can do it. Um, and you know,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: you go back to born to run. It's got one
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: last chance to make it real. I think that's happening
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: in just about every song and darkness on the edge
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  Speaker 1: of town. There's one more chance, um, to get through
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: this tough, tough patch of life that the singer finds
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: himself in.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: The Promised Land insists that limitations can be overcome, while
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: much of the album suggests that The Promised Land may
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: remain forever out of reach. Is the narrator's faith realistic
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: determination or does he need to deceive himself to keep going,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: to keep moving forward?
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: I feel like the Promised Land and the title song,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Darkness on the Edge of Town, are involved in kind
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: of the same project, which to my mind is just
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to look into the face of the abyss and then
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: somehow convince yourself that you're going to get past it. Um,
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  Speaker 1: so it's, I found that paradox really moving. This album
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: came out when I was 16 and you know, when
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: you're 16 dark moods can overtake you, but it's one
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: of those records that help you make it through dark
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: times because it doesn't avoid looking at the darkness. It
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: stares straight hard into it. And, you know, even at
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: the end of the album, You're not entirely sure if
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: he's going to make it, but that music is so
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: triumphant that you just feel in your gut that, yeah,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: you can do it and he can do it. And,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: you know, I find that just really emotionally moving.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: I'm curious, why is that your favorite album? You were 16.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: So that is an age where you can lock into
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: something and never forget it and really make that connection
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: to it.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: I think that's probably the main reason. You know, it's tonally,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: lyrically and musically interesting. It is such of a piece.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk probably about The River next, which
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: can be a little bit of a mishmash. Darkness on
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: the Edge of Town, I feel like every song just
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: envelops that mood I'm talking about where someone has to
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: gird their loins and face something hard. I grew up
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: in the kind of hardscrabble neighborhood in Sacramento, California. That
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: was something that I had to do a lot. And
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: so I think a lot of it goes back to just, yeah,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: for me, a biographical element, autobiographical.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Now I'll share with you why Tunnels of Love is
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: my personal favorite later, but Candy's Room is my sleeper
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: pick on that album.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's so good.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Pictures of heroes on the wall. Yeah.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: And you know, that song is less than three minutes long,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: but it's just, it feels like a whole opera.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: David Starkey is the author of Bruce Springsteen, 1973 to 1987.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Every album, every song. 1980s, The River. For this one,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Springsteen originally submitted the polished 10 song album, and it
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: was called The Ties That Bind, but decided it wasn't enough.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: What could a 20 song double album express about adult
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: life that that tighter version couldn't?
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: It's interesting listening to that Ties That Bind album, which
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: we can get on the box set called the Ties
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: That Bind. I think it's the River Collection or something
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: like that, which came out in the mid, like 2015,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: something like that. It is so slickly produced. You said
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: you used the word polish and for sure it is.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Bob Clear Mountain is the producer and it sounds like
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: he's listening so that every single song is a potential
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: radio hit. And the album that We have in its
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: place the river produced by Springsteen and John Landau and
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Stephen Van Zandt is a lot rougher around the edges.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: And I think that better suits the material for one thing. Also,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: you know, the the ties that bind it. it has
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: the river and stolen car and the price you pay these,
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: these great songs, but there's no independence day. There's no
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: drive all night. It's got some, to me, relatively lightweight
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: songs like be true and then hungry heart. And I
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: want to marry you, which, which end up on the river,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: but I would not, put as my favorites in there.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: So the 20 song album, this is a guy that
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: we know was writing dozens and dozens of songs that
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: never made it onto these canonical albums that were released
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: at the time. So I think he just had a
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: lot of good material. Now, in this one particular case,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would always pick the songs that
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: he had. But I do think for sure the 20-song
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: version is much better than the original.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love The River, but there are songs on
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: there that I would skip over. And that leads to
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: my next question. It places those carefree bar band songs
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: right next to the stories of unemployment, the broken relationships,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: and the disappointed dreams. My question to you is, do
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: those extremes strengthen each other by being included on this
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: double album? Or does it keep it from feeling fully unified. Yeah.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Would it have been better off with the 10 tracks, but...
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Different tracks. Different tracks, right.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think for me, the great double
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: album is the Beatles' White Album, which is all over
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: the place musically, way more than this album is. But
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: there's something about that that feels more coherent in a way.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: So I guess my answer to your question is, depends
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: on the last time I listened to this album, whether
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: or not it feels like the songs are working together
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: with a little, you know, breath of fresh air with,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: I want to marry you before we go back to
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: something heavy, like the price you pay. Um, or, or
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: if it seems like they, they don't work, I guess
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: in my book, I basically say, I don't think that
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: they work as well as they should. And, you know,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: I think two of my favorite songs, I think two
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: of the greatest songs of the last 50 years are
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: The River and Independence Day. The River especially is, you know, wow,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: hard to overstate what a great song that is. And then,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: you know, you've got Crush on You, which is really dumb.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: That's got that super annoying organ riff in the background.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Cal Akron, Sherry Darley. I mean, these are fun songs
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: in a concert, but, um, maybe they don't kind of
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: fit quite as much as we want them to.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: I love out on the street.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Out on the street. Actually, I was going to
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: mention that because he still plays that. He played that
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: as at his last tour. Um, and it, and it
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: works great. You know, it's, it's a bar band song. Um,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: It's a fun song. And I didn't mention that as
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: one of my least favorite of the bar band songs,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: because I agree with you. I think that's a pretty
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: cool song.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Did you see Copland, the Stallone movie, where they play
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: a couple of those Springsteen songs in it? Oh, man.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: I saw it. That was a long time ago.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they have Stolen Car in there. And I
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: feel like they played another one in there, too. And boy,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: they work so well in that movie.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll bet they do.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: And I remember watching in those scenes. And it had
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: been a while since I had listened to The River.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: But yeah, if you get a chance, watch that movie
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: and you'll see it come up. Now, here's where things
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: get interesting. Born in the USA, that was expected to
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: follow the river. And the label really wanted that because
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Hungry Heart was a huge hit. I think it was
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: top 10.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: I think it was number two. Right? I think it
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: was two, yeah.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're thinking, let's ride this wave. But instead, Bruce
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: releases the stripped down Nebraska in 1982. And he recorded
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: several of its songs there. with the E Street Band
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: before returning to the original demos, which he moves into
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: this house or rents a house there in New Jersey.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Right, Colts Neck.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Colts Neck, and records these songs on a basic recorder.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: It was a four track, I think.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: And yeah, what would the full band versions have taken
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: away from these stories?
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, you can hear most of the full
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: band songs on what's the Electric Nebraska disc of when
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Nebraska was re-released last year as a box set. I
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: think they're pretty good, actually. They're not the big booming
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: sounds of Born in the USA. They're more... there's more
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: stripped down, but I think it gives them a little
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: bit more oomph in my opinion. I mean, have you
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: seen the movie Deliver Me From Nowhere?
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: I was about to ask you that. So you, I did.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you've seen it, right?
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: I have indeed. And I think now that we have
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: that out there, you know, and it's based on Warren
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Zane's book, it makes it seem like this period in
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Springsteen's life was so crucial to his artistic development that
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: without it, Who knows what would have happened? He had
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: to reject commercialism. He had to go deep inside himself
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: with just his guitar and his harmonic and sometimes a mandolin.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: That said, that's not my favorite album, I have to say.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Partly it's because... I'm not sure that the music, you know,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: it's there's a few two chord songs on there, three,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: four chords. Not that that doesn't do that elsewhere to
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: great effect. But I don't know. It just doesn't resonate
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: with me in the way that it does with a
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: lot of Springsteen fans. So, you know, I it's one
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: of those albums I admire. But am I going to
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: put it on on my way to work? Probably not.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Atlantic City was the standout single, you know, and they'd
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: made a video for it. The narrator knows that accepting
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: a criminal favor may destroy him, but believes he has
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: no honest way out. Is he driven by economic desperation
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: or is he using hardship to justify a choice that
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: he already wants to make?
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: It's a good question. I mean, I think the answer
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: is both of those things. He is desperate and he's
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: also justifying his decision through hardship. You know, It's interesting.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: I think of a parallel character for me is the
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: singer of Meeting Across the River in Born to Run.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: The guy who is talking to his friend Eddie and
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: they're going to go across the river and they're going
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: to make a deal. And I think Springsteen is sympathetic
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: with both these guys. But, you know, he himself is
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: such a hard worker and I don't think he takes
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: the easy way out. So I always wonder if maybe
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: he's secretly, you know, despises them a little too, even
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: at the same time as he can understand why they're
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: making these decisions.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: By the way, we didn't mention that born and born
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: to run inspired by film noir. I mean, that, that was,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: that's a big thing with Bruce. He loves those old
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: black and whites.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. He sure does. Yeah. Yeah.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Now two years after Nebraska Springsteen returned to the Foley
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: street band sound with 1984 is born in the USA.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: It's the biggest album of his career. The title track,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: the huge drums and the synthesizer sound triumphant, the lyrics
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: about a Vietnam veteran abandoned by his country. Was that
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: contradiction the song's greatest artistic strength and the reason it
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: became so widely misunderstood?
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly how I would put it. I mean,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: if you listen to the music and the chorus, it's
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: this patriotic song that Ronald Reagan tried to co-opt. But
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: you listen to the verses, and they just undercut that entirely.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: One thing I learned about writing my book on Springsteen
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: was that he had pretty much kept his politics under
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: his hat until that point. He was a left-leaning guy,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: but when that song was something that was going to
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: be used for Ronald Reagan campaign appearances, he thought, no,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: that's not right. That's not what that song is about.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: That song is the opposite of the way it's being used.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: And Ever since then, he has been one of the
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: most political artists. You know, he's done concerts for just
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: about every Democratic presidential candidate we can think of. He
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: wrote a book with Barack Obama. So that interestingly, that
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: song kind of outed him as a left leaning political figure.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I never thought about that. I wonder if it
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: would have been better suited. In terms of people understanding
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: it more, if he went with the original version, right?
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Because the original version you can hear, I think, on
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: those Nebraska sessions, right? And I remember he played that
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: when I saw him live in Hartford, Connecticut here. He
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: played the version that was the original one. It's darker.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: And I think it may have come across better. What
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: do you think?
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: It certainly would have been more... accurate, would it have
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: been as big a hit? Probably not.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, it would not have.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: And, you know, I mean, that's one of the interesting
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: characteristics about Springsteen is that he is his own man.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: He is sympathetic with the outsider. I think he always
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: sees himself as an outsider, even, you know, all these
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: years later, but he always wants to have a big hit.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: You know, he's not, he's not writing for a small
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: group of devoted listeners. He's writing for all of us.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: And so I I think he, he would have gone
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: with the, with the, the current version, even knowing, you know,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: what was going to happen.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Dancing in the dark was a one that was
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: asked of him saying, we need a hit single. And he,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: he did it. Yeah. Didn't say no glory days is
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: another big hit. And that one sounds celebratory, but it's
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: characters are trapped by memories of who they used to be.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Has it become another anthem by Bruce that audiences are
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: misunderstanding only in a less political way than.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah for sure I mean you know it's a
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: kind of a trick that he does where you've got
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: depressing lyrics and upbeat music like born to run the
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: song itself is you know it's got a sadness and
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: madness and death traps and suicide raps but it's it's
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: the music is really exhilarating I don't spend a lot
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: of time in my book talking about videos but this
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: one is an interesting one I don't know if you
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: can remember it but he's a baseball player right so
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: it opens up he's got a steam shovel and it
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: kind of fades in and he's He's throwing a ball
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: at a piece of plywood.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I just remember he didn't have the best arm. I
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: don't think he really was.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Some of those camera shots are doing their best to
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: wind up. But but then it cuts into to the
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: bulk of the of the video is the band, you know,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: lip-syncing in this bar in New Jersey, and they're all
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: so psyched up. They really are having a blast. Patty's
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: in the background wailing on the tambourine. Little Steven's mugging
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: it up. Nils Lofgren hasn't even recorded with them really yet.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: It's out there. So it's just this kind of wild thing.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: And then at the end, the Springsteen character who wants
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: to be a baseball player It turns out he's got
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: a wife and two kids. And the wife, I think,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: is Patty in the background.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: No, I tell you. You know who I think? This
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: is who I read. It's Julia Phillips, his future wife.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Right? Yeah. The actress. When I looked at that once,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: that was about. Am I getting?
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Is that her name? Julianne Phillips. Yeah, exactly.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. We should check that. I'm sure some of
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: our Springsteen fans will let us know what's going on.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: But my point is that he seems pretty darn happy.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: So weirdly, the video seems to work against the content
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: of the lyrics, which I agree with. You are kind
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: of depressing.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: They are. All right. Let's see. Glory Days video. Well,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: right at the top, it says Julian Phillips Glory Days video.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: She makes a brief, memorable cameo appearance at the very end.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. Then I, I miss saw her. I guess
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: I was wanting to see.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: No, I know she was on a TV show, but
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I just being a huge Chevy slash Fletch fan. I
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: just remember her being in a Fletch too.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Right. Right.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. She was in Fletch too. My hometown moves from
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: that warm childhood memory to racial tension, disappearing jobs and
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: the possibility of leaving. When the narrator tells his son,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: this is your hometown. Is he, preserving a sense of belonging,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: or is he passing down an unresolved burden?
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: I think he's trying to preserve a sense of history,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: a sense of family history. But it's history that went wrong.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: And it's in a place that can no longer support
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: people like himself.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: That's why me and my wife are packing up and
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: heading south. And, you know, I kind of feel that
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: way about my own neighborhood that I grew up in
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: where I kind of hate it. But I'm kind of
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: proud of how run down it is. And I'm also
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: proud that I got out. And I think all those
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: feelings are kind of mixed into my hometown here. Which,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: you know, is another reason why Springsteen is such a
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: great songwriter is he's able to hold these contradictory ideas
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: in a single song. You know, oftentimes just with the music,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: just layering it over is the keyboard is in this song.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Before we move on to the box set, two things
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: I want to bring up. One is listening to No
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Surrender today. I want to get your thoughts as a poet.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Cause I love this, this line now, young faces grow
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: sad and old and hearts of fire grow cold.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a really good one.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But my sleeper pick on the album downbound train
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: is that interlude when it all of a sudden last night,
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: I heard you, you know, running through the, the woods
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: and he comes back an empty bed and paint a
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: picture man he can paint a picture like nobody else
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: it's amazing it's kind.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Of astonishing i believe there were eight top 10 songs
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: on that album seven or eight.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah let's see the yeah we got dancing in the
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: dark cover me born in the usa i'm on fire
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: glory days i'm going down in my hometown seven singles.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: Seven singles yeah and that was the record with michael
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: jackson's thriller for for some time i think until um
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Katy Perry finally broke it with eight.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I can't forget Bobby Jean. Yeah.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Bobby Jean.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Now these, these songs you will hear most of them,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: if I recall correctly on the box set, which it
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: came out in 1986, live 1975 to 85. This is,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I borrowed this from my brother-in-law vinyl. And that's a really,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: that was, that was the moment where I, fell in
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: love with Bruce's music. I mean, just mesmerized by these
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: performances and it presents a decade of performances as one
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: enormous concert. You know, they all go into one and
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: the other into the next, but it's also, it's a
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: carefully edited construction. Should we be hearing this as a
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: historical document or is it Springsteen shaping the story of
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: his own rise?
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think it's a bit of both again. Um,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: you know, one thing, um, I was on the podcast
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: None But the Brave, and they were pointing out that
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: there are a number of overdubs on this album. And
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: so what we're hearing isn't always necessarily what the crowd
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: was hearing. But that happens all the time. People sweeten
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: a live album with a little extra guitar or synthesizer.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: I don't think that takes anything away from it. Yeah,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: it's an interesting album. I'm always kind of disappointed that
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: there are... There's only one song before 1978. And so
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: one recording of a song before 1978. It's Thunder Road,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: The very first track, yeah.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's like, well, there are almost... by far the, the,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: the bulk of the songs from born in the USA
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: are on there. They were, we just heard them, you know,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: in the previous album, there's a lot of songs from darkness,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: you know, there's some interesting, um, things, things that he
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: still does like war, you know, the, the lead off
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: for his, his current, um, concert, uh, series. Um, I
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: am not a great fan of the long talking. Um,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: So I'm happy. A lot of that has been added
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: to that. I love that stuff, man.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: When I was in college, a friend of mine used
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: to come to my dorm room. He's like, Hey, can
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: you play that one where, where he says, and, and
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: my father said, that's good. That's a river. Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, well, there's that great line
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: in there. You know, mom wants him to be a lawyer.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: The dad wants to be like, But tonight, Yuzo's going
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: to have to settle for rock and roll. Right.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: The fans go nuts. Yeah. Yeah. But the one, yeah,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: I think– and then there's the– I think it was
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: the river, though. But it was– he was going to
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: go off to the war, and they didn't take him. Right.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Even though he couldn't get along with his dad, his
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: dad says, well, that's good. Like, hey, you get that
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: warm feeling inside.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, no. So, you know, and I– again, I'm
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: not– A lot of my friends have seen Springsteen dozens
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: or one of my best friends has seen him 48 times.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: That's a lot of times. I've never done anything 48 times.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: I think I've seen him four or five times, but
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: when he's doing the talking, when I'm there in the audience,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: I I'm okay with it. But when I put it,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: I also have that vinyl record collection. When I put,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: put on side six or whatever, I want to hear
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: a lot of talking. I want to hear some music.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: That's very interesting because as a fan of Van Halen,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: like David Lee Roth gets, he gets a lot of
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: criticism for that. It's like, shut up, play the song.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe it's just more enjoyable when you're there,
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: but not on, not on tape or when you're watching
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: it on video. I don't know. I, yeah, it, it
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: is an interesting, that that's a whole podcast episode. They're
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: like talking before songs, you know, but, but yeah, that
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: sets up the next one, which is 87 tunnel of love.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: My personal favorite and Springsteen insisted it wasn't strictly autobiographical,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: but I don't know, man, it's, it's, it's doubts about marriage.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Those emerged shortly after, or before his marriage to Julian
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Phillips ended. I mean, could, can we, should we separate
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: these songs from what was happening in his private life?
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, maybe we should, but I certainly don't
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: in my book. I mean, I, that's kind of my,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: each for each album, I try and tell a story
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: and the story that I tell in, in, in for
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: a tunnel of love is how contradictory everything is and,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: and what a depressing album this, is for a band
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: to write for his new wife, you know? Um, and
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: we see some of the videos when he's singing directly
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: to Patty, you know, um, from these songs, it's like, okay,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It's, it's, it's, it's definitely this fragmented
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: way of looking at things. Um, the walk like a man,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: you know, that song where he's cutting his, having his wedding,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: the song is addressed to his father. Um, right. And,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: and how he's gonna, he's learned to walk like a man.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: His bride is just an afterthought in that. Um, and
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: so there's a lot of like little moments where you think, okay,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: this marriage is not necessarily going to be one that's
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: going to last as is with Patty's house for whatever,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: 38 years. Um, Uh, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's,
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: it's a really interesting album. You were going to tell
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: me why you think it's your favorite.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Well, I was in college and I was, this was
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: like the first, first serious girlfriend I had where I
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: was really head over heels, but it was one of
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: those relationships where I just really shouldn't have been in it.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: You know, like, you know, you're not, you know, it's
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: not working, it's not right, but you can't get out
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: of it. And, and it was like, it was, you know,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: it was, it was just a lot of drama, a
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: lot of back and forth. And it was just like,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: what are we doing here? And then, you know, we're
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: just kids really 20 years old, but I'm listening to
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: these songs and I'm just thinking, you know, one step forward,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: two steps back, you know, one step forward to a
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: tunnel of love. And it's just this wild ride. And man,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: it was a ride, you know, the moments of elation
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: where you're just like happier than ever. And then other
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: moments you were like, Oh my God, all we do
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: is argue. So, you know, I thought about that and,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: but I didn't relate to like one step up is interesting.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, that, that, that wasn't like, he's looking across
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: the bar, right.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: That, that is getting the message. She ain't looking too married. Yeah.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: That's a, you know, that's a song gets me every
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: time that opens with a broken furnace and a car
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: doesn't start. And so then that imagery right there, but
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: you know, how do those everyday failures become symbols for
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: a relationship that has stopped working?
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, that's it. And, you know, right after that,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: there's a woman in a white dress outside a church,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: but the bells, they ain't ringing. You know, it's just
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: a long list of things that are mismatches. Maybe that's
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: the thing. He's a mismatch with Julianne Phillips. And he's
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: kind of realizing that. I think those, you know, that's
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: a great the furnace in the car. That's just a
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: nice bit of poetic writing where you show something rather
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: than tell. So this is clearly a symbol for this relationship.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: And then he just moves on. And, you know, right
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: away we know that things are off.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: But I did relate to that song in the sense
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: of that need to escape. Because at the end of
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: the song, he just, you know, danced.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: He's dancing with a woman dances the evening stars faded
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: to black right you know just two steps.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Back it's like just let me let me just escape
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: in this moment you know just i don't want it
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: to end and then then he's back to real life
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: you know but uh yeah you conclude that springsteen he's
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: never going to equal that run 73 to 87 i
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: started at the top and asking you why you chose
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: a specific period but going back to that what made
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: those nine albums such a rare creative achievement And what
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: is the magic in the night that continues to draw
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: listeners back to them as you write?
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think it is a convergence of factors.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: He was a popular artist on the radio starting in 1975. And,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: you know, we don't really have, like, people listening to
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: the radio. You don't really do that anymore. He was
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: on MTV as MTV started off. MTV doesn't show music videos,
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: you know. So there was this... kind of monolithic corporate
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: world behind them in a good way. You know, it's
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: got these great songs. And so it, it just, it
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: reached a lot of people in a way that I
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: think it's hard for music to do these days. You know,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: just like everyone's watching the same three network news shows
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: back then, if you were, everyone was watching MTV, everyone
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: was listening to whatever their local, you know, radio station was.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: You know, I think there's, the desperation and trying to
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: make it big. And then once you break, as he
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: did with, uh, um, born to run going in to
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: secure that success, Nebraska, notwithstanding. Um, so I think he's
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: really focused on both how he wants to say something
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: and how it's going to be received by his ever
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: expanding audience. That's what, partly what makes this such a,
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: you know, a magical time, but you know, it's just
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: the bottom line is there's no other music like that.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: out there in the world. There just isn't. Now, there
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: never will be. So, you know, it's just such a
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: treasure to go back to these albums. And, you know,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I do my share of nitpicking in here. But, you know,
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, I really admire this man and the stuff
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: he's done. And a lot of it has meant a
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: great deal to me personally. So that, to me, is
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: kind of magic in the night.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Now, I'm curious, is there one album that you would
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: say you like post-1987?
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: I really like this album Letters to You the most.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's 2020. It's a damn good album. It
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: really is.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Letters to You.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I would recommend that. That's an album
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: that I listen to over and over again without any prompting.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: That's how I always know if I like a record.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: Do I want to listen to it again and again?
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: I think that's some strong material. There's three songs from
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: back in the day, but the music fits well with
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: the lyrics. The lyrics are a nice balance between that
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: stripped down writing of Born in the USA and a
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: little bit more effusive in some of the other stuff.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: So I would put that out to folks to take
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: a listen to if they haven't already.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: I think I'd have to go with Magic. Okay. I
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: think I'd have to go with that one. Yeah. Although
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: The Rising is great. I mean, he still has those moments,
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: you know, those songs where you're like, man, that's it.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: That's Bruce right there, you know?
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. When you mentioned The Rising, there's a song further
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: on up the road, which obviously it's his original song.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Johnny Cash's version on one of those American recordings, I
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: think it might be the fourth one. Maybe it's the
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: fifth one. That is one of the great moments in
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: three minutes of american music i don't think i've heard
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: that no yeah take a listen to johnny cash doing
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: further on up the road and and you will you
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: will be.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: Moved bruce springsteen 1973 to 1987 every album every song
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: is out now you can find it wherever books are
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: sold usually uh but online definitely amazon or you can
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: go through burningshed.com if you live in in the uk
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: you can get it.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: There yeah simon and schuster's is bringing it out in
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: the u.s so it's pretty excellent pretty widely available.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Oh great and where can people find you online david.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: David starkey.net okay and i should i should say there's
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: a there's a kind of crazy english historian named david
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: starkey that's david starkey.com do not go there okay david starkey.net
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: please all right i take no responsibility for his comments.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: Oh no okay see now you got people here you just.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Promoted his i just said everybody that's All right.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: David, thanks so much. This was great. So glad we
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: can make this happen. Two fellow Springsteen fans just talking
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: Bruce on that. I can do that anyway. Yeah.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: Great pleasure. Thanks, Eric. That's it.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: It's in the books.