Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #339 | Johno The Plumber: Saying What The Industry Won't
Transcript
- Aaron Ng (00:00) Now, before I get into it, a big shout out to the legends at my construct. If you're still managing your jobs, contracts, client comms across text messaging and spreadsheets, there is a better way. My construct is built by Australian builders for Australian builders. And it is the best platform out there as a construction software. Jake and the team are working on some really exciting stuff that we've got to have a sneak peek at. But go and check them out. is myconstruct.com. You can get a 30 day trial and the guys there are absolute legends and they're taking the Australian building industry by storm. So go and check out their platform. They are very, very cool. And thank you once again, MyConstruct for being the proud sponsors of this podcast. Az (00:59) Good morning and welcome to the Good Builder Podcast. Today's guest I found pretty much most probably how you all found this guest. And I have been just obsessed with him actually ever since. And he's gonna sit feel a bit awkward, probably. Hearing that from me, but I I found him scrolling. Johno The Plumber whose real name is actually Robert Cragg, and I didn't really know of that yet. if you've seen him, you know who he is. And if you haven't, you've got to take a look. And we're gonna put all the links below. Go and follow him because I was just saying before the pod that He talks about things that a lot of the industry might find uncomfortable talking about and he raises great issues, but he does it in a way that is just so entertaining. And he has one of the biggest following on Instagram in the construction industry. such a humble bloke before the podcast. He was sort of saying, I'm just a normal kind of guy that's, you know, resonated with the audience and stuff like that. But when you actually have a listen to the stuff that he's talking about, he's talking about standards. He's talking about accountability. He's talking about how do we get better apprentices? How do we retain people in this industry? It's all the stuff that we are trying to preach here at the Good Builder. And he's out in the field actually living it, doing it, and talking about it. And this is why we love this bloke so much here at The Good Builder. He's got twenty-four years in the trade. He runs Cragg plumbing and drainage down in Melbourne. And he's got a proper a proper business that does commercial and domestic work. So if there's any builders out there that's looking for a great plumber, he's your man. Newhomes, Gas, Renos gone through all the Victoria plumbing stuff. And so what I did was I slid into his DMs as you do and I asked him, could you come on the podcast? And I was pretty much blown away when he said yes. I I've been following this gentleman for a while as I said and it is my absolute pleasure to bring Robert to this podcast. Or Rob, mate, how are you? johno the plumber (02:59) I'm good Aaron, how are you? Az (03:00) Yeah, really good, mate. Yeah. As I said, I johno the plumber (03:02) Yeah. Az (03:03) I've been following you man, and and and stuff you put up there is yeah, just just so pertinent to what we're going through now. You talk about the stuff that we're seeing out in the field day to day and y you're not really scared to share any of your opinions. So where did johno the plumber (03:17) Mmm. Az (03:17) it all kind of start, Rob? Like where did you start, mate? How did you get into the industry and have this much passion? johno the plumber (03:23) So yeah, like, just like you said, I've been in the industry for about 24 years now. Started off as Az (03:27) Yeah. johno the plumber (03:28) a, I finished my year 12, well actually I didn't finish year 12. I failed year 12, but I stayed there just to hang out with my mates. Went from that into landscape gardening, where this is where I got my real first taste of what being in the trade industry is like. And I try and touch on this a little bit with the apprentices and sort of attitudes and behaviors and that sort of thing. But I went into the workforce as a fresh 18 year old, just completely full of myself. You know, I can, I can absolutely pull my hand up and say I was a dickhead. I used to think that, you know, the world owed me a favor and I found out very, very quickly that no one's going to put up with any of shit out there and you need to, you need to smarten up and And so that's what I did. I mean, it did take a few years for me to really sort of kick into action and yeah, like really getting humbled a lot of times, really. Yeah, it really made me change. And then from there, I just Az (04:20) Yeah. johno the plumber (04:20) sort of grew and yeah. Yeah, like, and then what did I do? I got out of, I'll say in my fourth year of my apprenticeship, Az (04:28) Yeah. johno the plumber (04:29) I was forced into being a subcontractor. Az (04:33) Yeah. johno the plumber (04:34) And not, knowing a single thing about anything subcontracting. Az (04:36) well. johno the plumber (04:37) had a, I didn't know anything about like saving tax or anything like that. So I was like blowing all my money. And this was another big learning lesson that I try to teach people. I got into a massive big debt with the ATO. I managed to get myself out of it eventually. And I got humbled a whole heap more times, you know, as you do as a young 20 year old. And then Az (04:57) Yeah. johno the plumber (04:57) I went into running my own business and. had some big losses, had a lot of good wins. And then that was probably, you know, 12, 13 years ago. And now here I am now and sort of been sort of building up over 24 years of my experience and just what I've witnessed over the years and even my own experiences and really what I try to get out there too is just sort of like, don't make the same mistakes that I made. Az (05:19) I love johno the plumber (05:20) I think a lot of kids and even I did this myself as a young fellow, like you sort of. The older guys will say, Hey, you know, need to, you need to sort of do this. Like they will give you subtle little sprinkles of advice. And I think myself as a young guy, I sort of went, you know, what is he fucking knows sort of thing, but Az (05:38) Yeah. johno the plumber (05:39) they are genuinely trying to help you out. And it's, almost like, I don't know if you've heard of this, this term called the Cassandra effect. You ever heard of that? You get, if you, if you get a chance, Google it, I'll like, Az (05:46) No, no, no, what is it? Yeah. johno the plumber (05:51) I'll won't be able to explain it. that well right now, but I'm sort of just, I'll just go off the top of my head. So Az (05:56) Yeah. johno the plumber (05:57) the Cassandra effect, I think it's a Greek, it was a Greek mythology story about this woman named Cassandra. What she would do was through her life experiences, she was able to predict things that were going to happen. So say, just for example, you keep turning up to work late all the time, you're always going to be late for everything. And then eventually when that thing does actually happen, it does actually come into fruition. then you go, well, like they'll actually tell him the truth the whole time that plus. So essentially what she was doing, she was basically predicting the future. Like you can, you can notice little traits like, economists who like look at, you know, numbers, like they can sort Az (06:32) Yeah. Yep. johno the plumber (06:33) of go, okay, this is what's going to happen in about two years time. And Az (06:37) Yeah. johno the plumber (06:37) a lot of people will go, no, that's not going to happen. And then when it does happen, you just go, see, Az (06:41) Yeah. johno the plumber (06:42) I told you so. So, But yeah, like going back to Az (06:44) I love it. johno the plumber (06:44) my point about the older guys, know, like they would always try and teach me things and say, Hey, you know, Rob, you need to stop doing this. You need to try and start doing this. And I just like, you know, whatever. And of course I was always right. Az (06:55) I love that. johno the plumber (06:56) And, know, sort of what I try to push now, like I've only just recently sort of touched on apprentices, but really trying Az (07:02) Mm. johno the plumber (07:02) to like, I've actually got a video coming out, which I'll mention in a second, but really try to, you know, try and give them advice to just go, Hey, you know, we're not. telling you, we're not shaking our finger at you and going, know, like old man shakes his fist at the sky. Like we're generally trying to like, we need to bring these kids up and make sure that they're solid leaders in the future. Because when you and I retire, we need Az (07:21) Love it. Mm. johno the plumber (07:23) the kids that are below us to be taking over this industry and leading from the front. I don't want to be that old guy saying that, but what we see a lot now is not a lot of leadership. And this comes from the top. If you're a business owner like myself or anyone else, you need to trickle down that experience and your knowledge and pass that on to the other guys. You just gotta bring them up. Az (07:44) Yeah. Yeah. You're completely right, you know that Rob. we'll we'll get into, you know, the the the character or it's not a character, but you know, your profile of John O' the Plumber. But mate, I I spoke with the QBCC up here, one of the head of the QBCC and and I'd spoken to this lady Danny and I said, What's the biggest threat to this industry? And she said, The older bloke's leaving. I was I was waiting, you know, Rob, for you know, not enough labor, not enough trades, I was waiting for not enough land, I was waiting for all this other stuff, you know, all the things that the mainstream media talks about. And she said the number one thing is there are some great operators now that are gonna be leaving the industry in the next ten years, twenty years. We've got to get all of that knowledge and pass it down. And so you're completely right. And that's why I love what you do, mate, because johno the plumber (08:35) Yeah. Az (08:36) you're doing that. And and I've been thinking a lot about exactly what you just said. I'm so happy that you just said that, mate. It must have been a I don't know, it's a it's a weird coincidence. But the last week or so I've been thinking about all the fuck ups I've done in my life and in construction and in my building business and all those things. And I thought to myself, if no one ever told me, I'd probably do the same thing again. Because at times when I started the business, I was desperate for money, I'd take on any client, I'd do whatever I you know, whatever I had to do to make the money, which then, you know, or or I wouldn't do the things that would make me the right money, which would then put me backwards. But like experience is all almost the best teacher, isn't it? you've either johno the plumber (09:15) Yeah. Az (09:15) got to go through it or you've got to talk to someone like yourself that has been through it. So mate, I I you are completely correct, mate. johno the plumber (09:23) Yeah. A saying that I have is failure is your best teacher. And I have failed. Az (09:27) Yeah. I love it. johno the plumber (09:30) I have failed so badly over the years. And every time I fail, I'll go back one step and I'll go forward another two steps. You have to learn from these mistakes. Even if it's something Az (09:39) Yeah. Yeah. johno the plumber (09:42) as simple as cutting a stud the wrong way, you'll know next Az (09:45) Yeah. johno the plumber (09:46) time. You'll know next time to measure that twice. You know? Az (09:49) Yeah, yeah. johno the plumber (09:50) Just little things like that. Just value is your best teacher. And if you haven't failed, then you haven't learned anything. Az (09:57) I reckon that's one of the coolest things I've ever heard on this podcast. And I reckon that's why you can talk to it so well in terms of that you've experienced it. You know, you can tell when someone's really genuine and you connect with it because you you believe them. There's trust there because you've been through it, mate. johno the plumber (10:12) Yeah. Yeah. Az (10:13) And I think that's, you know, being like yourself, I I think you're a mate, I I feel like I'm interviewing a rock star right now. In my eyes, johno the plumber (10:19) Hahaha Az (10:20) you no, I do, mate. I know, I know you're laughing at it, but mate, I johno the plumber (10:23) Yeah. Az (10:23) was nervous. I couldn't sleep last night. I I walked out to the shops. My wife's doing shopping before this podcast, and I'm like, I'm just about to have Rob, just about to have Johno The Plumber on. Like, mate, you know, this is the respect you have in the industry and it's it's it's really cool and and it shows the person that you are and how humble you are. to talk about, you know, you've been through it and you've made those mistakes and things like that. So johno the plumber (10:41) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I'm, I really am just a regular guy. it, the amount of people that message me, they could have just a hundred followers. It's just their mates. You'll get a response from me. If you message me and you want to talk Az (10:55) no. johno the plumber (10:56) to me, you will, I will absolutely respond to you. I've spoken to young guys who were just going out in their own. They're like, Hey, can you give me any advice on this sort Az (11:03) wow. johno the plumber (11:04) of sector that I'm doing? And I'll just start throwing information at them and just go on, mate. These are all the things that you can do. Go for it. Like if you need a hand with anything, yeah, sure. You know, sing out. Had a young guy the other day saying, just started pricing commercial jobs. Cause I've done a lot of that stuff too. he goes, well, how do I start with this? I'm like, my God, where do I begin about commercial jobs? I said, you need to just forget that it's a domestic job altogether. I said, there's so many factors that come Az (11:28) wow. johno the plumber (11:28) into it. Like how do you teach someone 24 years experience in like a, you know, a message on Instagram. you just can't so but like I mean I always do yeah try and try and and fade Az (11:38) Deep. absolutely. johno the plumber (11:39) that out but yeah I mean I mean I was nervous coming on this podcast with you like I get nervous talking or just about anyone you know yeah yeah Az (11:46) well. You shouldn't, mate. You shouldn't. Everyone reveres you so much, mate, in the industry. Like I was I was anyway, well I'll I'll I'll stop all that talk, but I was talking to a few guys in the industry, that are up here in Queensland, big builders. And I was like and they're good builders, mate, too. And I like, they'll say, No, you got johno the plumber (12:03) Yeah. Az (12:03) on next and I was like, I've got Rob. you know, the he he he does the he's got Croak plumbing and everything, but he does John O John O'Mhe the Plumber. And they're like, mate, we follow him. We love his stuff. Like johno the plumber (12:15) Yeah, I've got a big following in Queensland. Yeah, big one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Az (12:18) Huge, huge. No, you're you're a legend, Rob, mate. Like thank you, as I said, once again, thank you so much for being in our pod. But mate, the the johno the plumber (12:27) any time. Az (12:28) John O the Plumber profile, tell me a little bit about that and why you kind of chose that, it's not a character, it's you, but why you chose to have a Johnno the Plumber sort of profile going on? johno the plumber (12:41) Yeah. so over the years I've always been pretty heavily involved or not really heavily involved, but I've always been interested in media. you know, like me and a few mates, like we used to just sort of film things together and I really love editing and everything and sort of making Az (12:56) Yeah, well. johno the plumber (12:57) people laugh. And I've tried a few little into, you know, few little things over the years. didn't really kick off, but it didn't really matter. Anyway, I wasn't really aiming for anything to sort of go bananas because I just didn't think that I that interesting at all. And then this sort of came on. It's a bit of a long story, but this came on as sort of earlier this year, I think when the when the war in Iran kicked off, Az (13:20) Yeah. johno the plumber (13:21) I like that that moment in time earlier this year, it really, really stressed me out a lot. It felt like we were going back into COVID again, with all Az (13:30) Yeah. johno the plumber (13:31) the prices going up. And then I was like, my wife is heavily involved in the financial industry. And she was, you she talks to me a lot about it. And Az (13:39) Yeah. johno the plumber (13:40) the whole political economy around it really got to me a lot. And I knew that back in COVID, it affected me quite a bit. And I was like, Az (13:48) Yeah, wow. johno the plumber (13:49) I need to just, I need to disconnect from all of this and just find a way to disengage from politics because I'm not a political person. You know, if Az (13:58) Yeah. johno the plumber (13:58) you ask me who my favorite MP is, the hell's an MP? I don't know anything about that. So it sort of started in that sense for me to sort of disconnect from all the stresses of what was going on earlier this year and just to have a bit of fun. And Az (14:10) Yeah, well yeah. johno the plumber (14:11) I kicked it off and it just went absolutely bananas. And I was like, I don't even know why this is even popular. I did sort of ramp it up to 10 a bit, like very early on. My very early videos, my earlier videos are very sort of... Yeah, very rough and sort of controversial, I have sort of toned it down a bit now. Like I much prefer doing the whole, you know, educational sort of side of things with of course, humor, because apparently I'm funny, which I don't see that as well. My kids Az (14:39) You are. I love it. johno the plumber (14:41) don't think I'm funny at all. They're like, dad, you're so annoying. People seem to like it. Az (14:46) Mate, we love it. We love it. johno the plumber (14:49) Yeah. But it's sort of that, that whole sort of Ozzy, Larrikin, of, you know, volume up to 10, swearing and that sort of thing. And I don't know, people seem to get a kick out of it. And to be honest, you can create a character as much as you want, but the best character that you can create is one that you pick from your own traits. So that's what I did. Like everyone who knows me, I'm a no bullshit sort of person. There's no, I'm straight down Az (15:14) Yeah. johno the plumber (15:14) the line. I'll tell you exactly how it is and like my, I've got staff and everything. And I even say to them, I'm just like, don't Az (15:20) Well. johno the plumber (15:21) get offended when I tell you what you've done there is not good enough and you need to do better than Az (15:25) Yeah. johno the plumber (15:25) that. So go fix it up, you know, and you just got Az (15:28) Yeah we're. johno the plumber (15:28) to, yeah, like I was saying, I've always just sort of been like this. So yeah. Az (15:34) I love it. Yeah, no, I I think it's great and And it probably did it help you kind of express those opinions a bit more. Rob, when you're able to, you know, disconnect, like you said, from politics, although you're not political in any sense, you could kind of get into it and and and share your opinion and and take on that character to do it, Rob. And and I think that mate, it was great. Like that's when we when when you first started, it was I saw the early on controversial stuff. Not I wouldn't say it was controversial, but it was. You were saying stuff that no one else would say. And I think a few people johno the plumber (16:05) Yeah. Az (16:06) have followed you now and they've kind of seen the success that you've had. But you were one of the first, I really think in one of the ones that were really speaking the truth that people just just weren't saying, mate. You know, on top johno the plumber (16:17) Hmm. Az (16:18) of the humor, but the way you delivered it was just so palatable for the whole industry. And I reckon that's why you've got one of the I I would say the fastest growing following that I've ever seen in the industry. And johno the plumber (16:29) Yeah, it went really quick. Az (16:32) and the big other, you know, personalities, I don't know if that's the right word, but I call them icons, like we look up to them at the Good Builder, people like you, following you and commenting on everything that you say because yeah, johno the plumber (16:44) Hmm. Az (16:44) it's it's pertinent to what we're going through right now. So and I think johno the plumber (16:47) Yeah. Az (16:47) you express the opinion of a lot of people's fears as we were going through the Iran war and and all that sort of stuff as well. So I thought it was pretty cool, mate. I think the industry johno the plumber (16:55) Yeah. Az (16:56) needed it. You did the service, mate. johno the plumber (16:58) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Az (16:59) It kept people saying, I reckon. Like people would go, n because you could sit like what what happened to what me, I'm gonna talk from my perspective, and and not really talking about the good builder, but my personal perspective was I I I saw your staff and I was like, it was everything I was thinking and wanted to say, but I I didn't have the balls to. johno the plumber (17:17) Yeah. And like, and be honest, don't think anything that I'm sort of flagging is really that controversial. Like it's just like, Az (17:24) Nah. johno the plumber (17:24) these are things that need to be said. And at the end of the day, people need to stop just pussy footing around everything. Pardon my French there, but Az (17:30) Yeah. No. johno the plumber (17:32) just need to, we just need to say it as it is, you know? And like a few people have actually reached out to me. I get, I actually get a lot of messages of people saying, Hey, I love your content. And every now and then I'll, you know, sort of say, What is it about it that you actually like? And it's exactly what you said, this sort of thing. You're saying all the things that we're all thinking that no one Az (17:49) Yeah. johno the plumber (17:50) else wants to say. And it's just like, well, why isn't anyone else saying these sorts of things? Like what I'm saying, Az (17:54) Mm. johno the plumber (17:54) I'm not calling two plus two six. Az (17:58) Nah. johno the plumber (17:58) I'm calling it for what it is. So yeah, like, Az (18:00) Yeah. Yeah. johno the plumber (18:02) and I think more of it needs to happen, you know? Az (18:04) Yeah. No, I do too. I do too. And and there's a few like all sorts of different things like you know, let alone the the geopolitical stuff and and and things like that. I've I've got various opinions that I'd love to talk about and we'll talk about some stuff very shortly, but like You talk about being straight to the point and, you know, being a bit hard on side or or whatever. And, you know, w we look at a lot of stats and things on on the industry and one of the biggest injuries, and I put them like that, and I probably shouldn't, people might not like it, but one of the biggest injuries in construction right now is mental inju inju injuries. sorry, mental injuries. So, you know, people that feel like they're getting bullied or that or or things are too hard or they're not getting managed properly. Now I my my personal opinion is that we've become too soft as a society. and that johno the plumber (18:54) I agree. Az (18:55) nowadays you can't actually say what you need to say to get the job done and motivate somebody. And if you talk to them in a way that's not politically correct, then you you're gonna be in trouble. And it's kind of a bit sad nowadays too. I think people are just so fearful of everything. you know, if they're johno the plumber (19:09) Yeah. Az (19:10) gonna say something like you, what's gonna happen? you know, if they you know, are more direct on site, what's gonna happen? I think we've I think there's a few things that need to be said actually. Rob. johno the plumber (19:19) Yeah. Like I, I, I'm not someone who flies off the rails and screams and yells. think, I think I was, I Az (19:23) No, no, I'm not saying that. johno the plumber (19:25) was, I was many years ago, but I'm more, Az (19:28) Yeah. johno the plumber (19:28) I'm more mature about my approach with people now. but who knows? Like even telling someone and saying, Hey, you know what you've done over there, it isn't acceptable. We need to make it better because for one, the bill is going to defect it, the client's going to defect it. So you need to do better than that. Who knows how that would be taken, you know, Az (19:45) Yeah. johno the plumber (19:46) but. I mean, almost anything can be raised as like a bullying situation, it's just like, we have an industry that's nearly collapsing. Standards are dropping. No one wants Az (19:56) Yeah. Yep. johno the plumber (19:58) that. There's no accountability. There's no integrity. Who's going to be the one who stands up and says, well, you know, this isn't good enough. Cause I tell you right now, I've been into many meetings with builders where they've sat Az (20:08) Yeah. johno the plumber (20:08) me down and grilled me and said, what your company is doing right now in a few areas isn't good enough. Az (20:14) Yeah. johno the plumber (20:15) And I'll go, you're 100 % right. You've taken the words right out of my mouth. You've said exactly what I've been thinking the entire time. And I walk away going, they're fucking right. This isn't good enough. And I don't Az (20:25) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. johno the plumber (20:27) walk away from that going, I just felt intimidated by five directors sitting in front of me and Az (20:33) Yeah. johno the plumber (20:34) telling me that what's happened on the last few projects isn't good enough. They're fucking right. They're absolutely right. Az (20:39) Yeah, yeah, a lot. johno the plumber (20:39) And it's your livelihood at the end of the day. I'm just going to continue to just do subpar work. Then you'll have no more work. That's it. Az (20:46) Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. I love what you're about. And and and that's what I saw, Rob, you know. You you're talking about this stuff, you're talking about the standards of what's going on out there and and you talk about the whole industry talks about to us and they always talk about you talk to any builder, they're like, There's no tradies like there used to be. All the young guys coming up aren't like what they used to be. And I do believe we'll get into some other stuff, but I do believe it's it's partly because of that, because we've become a little bit softer in the way that we pussyfoot around stuff, not to take words out of your mouth. So I I think you're completely right. But johno the plumber (21:21) Yeah. Az (21:21) On other standards and things that you're seeing out there, Rob, what what else are you seeing out on site that you think needs to get better, needs to, you know, raise the bar on? what other stuff that that just shouldn't happen out on site that you're seeing at the moment? Yeah, really. johno the plumber (21:36) care factor, big time. A big part of my frustration, which I'm actually trying to manage myself is just other trades coming in and not taking any care of what may affect the other trade further down Az (21:50) Yeah. johno the plumber (21:51) the line or what's already happened. I'll give you an example. We did a sporting pavilion, it was around COVID actually. It was 20 Az (21:58) Yeah. johno the plumber (21:59) showers. 20 showers throughout this whole purvillian and each shower had its own tap set. hot and cold, the plasterers would come in and they would stick a little, stick a little ladder on the ground and do whatever work, whatever work they're doing. would put one foot on the ladder and then one foot on the, on the taps and just completely bend the taps all the way down. So by the time we came in to do the job, it's like all the taps are just absolutely stuffed. And then the builder Az (22:23) Bye. johno the plumber (22:23) just goes, well, you know what you should have done, you should have done more to protect you. protect your parts. What do you mean? It's soft, solder brass. can't do Az (22:33) Yeah. johno the plumber (22:33) anything more to protect it. And that's care factor right there. People will come in. I've even had Earthworks guys come in and they'll hit a fire service or they'll do something and it completely floods all my store mortar system. And then they get paid, they walk away. The builder goes, well, now you just got to, you should have done more to to protect this one in 1,000 year event that would happen that would just completely flood your whole saltwater system. So now I've got to get a vacuum truck in which costs thousands of dollars. It's Az (23:03) What do you have? johno the plumber (23:04) just like, and I'm sort of talking about more of the commercial game here, not the domestic game. I find builders Az (23:10) Yeah. johno the plumber (23:10) in the domestic sector are a bit more responsible and they do actually have a bit more of that care factor. But yeah, I think definitely trades not looking out for one another. So one thing I'll do, If I'm doing a drain, if Az (23:21) I love it. Mm-hmm. johno the plumber (23:23) I'm doing a drain, I will draw up the drain with the footing overlay on top of the drain. I'll send it to the builder or whoever it is and I'll say, you look at this, you approve it and you know, all good, all good, ready to go. So then we would do the drain and then I would physically do more drawings, even markups on site. then when the concrete guys come in, there's no reason for them to hit any of my stuff anymore. Az (23:45) Yeah. johno the plumber (23:46) And there's that care factor there. it's just like, well, now I'm now making the concrete is accountable and going, you've got heaps of information here to see what my services are doing below ground that you can't see. You may hit Az (23:58) Yeah. johno the plumber (23:58) a few things here and there, but if you hit anything more than five or six, you're getting backcharged. you just have to make people accountable. And that's that care factor. Az (24:06) Yeah. johno the plumber (24:06) Yeah. Az (24:07) Yeah, yeah. Mate, yeah. Mate, so many of the really, really good builders we've had on here say the exact same thing, Rob. Like you johno the plumber (24:15) Yeah. Az (24:15) talk to them about what what makes a good builder or what makes a good build, what makes a good process. And it's like usually trades working in teams and looking out for the next one that comes in after So they can do the job well. and that johno the plumber (24:25) Yeah. And even helping each other out too. Az (24:29) Yeah, wow. Yeah, is that a bit so since you've sort of started over these twenty four years, you think that's kind of been something that's gone by the wayside? johno the plumber (24:38) It's diminished, definitely. I Az (24:40) Yeah, well yeah. johno the plumber (24:42) still help out other trades. If I see a Sparky struggling with a hole or whatever, I'll go dig it for him. If the builder's got a bunch of rubbish and, hey, can you just load that bin up for me? Yeah, no worries. Just little things. We Az (24:52) Yeah, well yeah. johno the plumber (24:53) can all help each other out. And that's what's been lost over the years, definitely. Az (24:57) Yeah, yeah. No, that and again, that's why we love what you do, because from the you know, I said it to you before the pod, Rob, like I really feel what you're doing and what you do every day and and you and you've you've probably got a bigger audience than us, mate, and you do. you know, you're doing exactly what we're trying to do at the Good Builder in that home resie space. And and you're you're also, as I said, all the builders know you anyway, so you're doing it for the industry, but you you're doing it for the trades and the smaller trades to kind of of educate them on come on guys like let's johno the plumber (25:27) Yeah. Az (25:27) as you said let's work as a team let's lift our standards let's do this when this happens stuff like that mate I think is johno the plumber (25:33) Yeah. Az (25:34) why we love what you do man so johno the plumber (25:37) Yeah. Az (25:37) so when something like that goes wrong for example Rob and and usually it probably does fall on you it sounds like Where do you think that sort of accountability should fall? Is that w the way is that why you do what you do? So the accountability can fall on the right person? and if you don't, johno the plumber (25:52) Yeah. Az (25:53) is that the risk that you run not doing stuff like that? 'Cause it must add a ton of extra work for you, mate, that other trades just aren't doing at the moment. johno the plumber (26:00) Yeah, it does. Like you sort of got to, I sort of look at it as like a pendulum. Like you got to take the good of it bad sometimes, know, people, trades will hit things, plumbers might come in and they'll check too much out of a posse, know, like stuff like that. They should know better, but like, know, someone damaging a wall or someone damaging my pipes. Like you just got to, I don't know where it sort of falls in the accountability sort of sense, but If it's something really catastrophic, think, Az (26:28) Mm. johno the plumber (26:29) you know, people need to get involved and just sort of go, all right, well, the builder didn't do enough preparation to make sure that those guys didn't run over this grease trap that was in the ground. Those guys Az (26:40) Yeah. johno the plumber (26:41) shouldn't have driven over the grease trap and the plumbers probably should have put some hoarding around it or something like, know, just do like a three way split. Yeah, I don't know. Az (26:48) Yeah. Yeah. johno the plumber (26:50) Definitely a hard one. But Az (26:51) I agree. johno the plumber (26:52) if you can cover all your bases and just say, I've given you guys a ton of information here and it's pretty obvious what's going on in the ground. What do you want me to do about it? Like I Az (27:01) Yeah, yeah, yeah. johno the plumber (27:04) can't be there doing the structural work for you. I can't be there digging the trenches for the sparkies. Like things do happen, but like, I mean, Az (27:12) Yeah. johno the plumber (27:13) if I do something or one of my guys does something, I tell you what, almost every time. I'll say to the builder or the client, Hey, I know this isn't great. What's happened here, but I'm going to do Az (27:23) Mm. johno the plumber (27:23) everything that I can to make it right. It may, this mistake may have been thousands of dollars. I'll probably never make it up. But if I could, if I can jump onto the next job and just do whatever I can for you there, just, just to smooth the process and just help everyone else out, you know, otherwise all you're doing then is you just, you just churning and burning relationships. And ultimately I'm not about that at all. want to have, you know, solid relationships and I think even yourself as a builder, like you want to have good Az (27:50) Yeah. johno the plumber (27:51) trades coming in and out all the time, but yeah, yeah, what's your thoughts? Az (27:54) It is. And I it it is. I'm I'm the same as you, Rob. Like before we, you know, started the pod again, we had a really brief little chat, everyone, and I was talking to Rob about my past experience with the building company that I was part of and started and and it was all about relationships and it was I told Rob it was it was the reason I left, mate, as I said to you. the relationships weren't there, we were struggling for good trades because we weren't treating them right. And we were, you know, when a mistake was made, we weren't taking the time, you know, to to put in the right process like you have, to make people accountable for what they did. So a lot of it was falling back on us, really. And and johno the plumber (28:34) Yeah. Az (28:34) you know, so you know, I think there's lessons in what you said from for everyone from builders through trades. Like just make sure you've got everything ticked, make sure you're communicating really well to everyone on site, they know what you're doing, they know not what to do. And I reckon that should cover you. Rob mate. Like in my eyes, johno the plumber (28:50) Yeah. Az (28:50) I think you've done everything in your power and that makes a we talk a lot about good builders. I still kind of classify you as a builder, you're building stuff, but you know, that makes a good trade, Rob? Like that's I I've I've never heard of many trades that do what you do. And again, besides your content being phenomenal, I think your process is pretty phenomenal. and I think johno the plumber (29:11) Yeah. Az (29:11) if if you're doing everything in your power to communicate and advise about things that could potentially go wrong and what to watch and what you're doing and what you're doing next, it shouldn't be on you, mate. Like it should be on the johno the plumber (29:22) Yeah. Az (29:22) other trades, to be honest. johno the plumber (29:24) Yeah. And, you know, going to your point about, you know, the builder wearing a lot of things too. I personally think that's pretty unfair too. Like I know of a lot of Az (29:33) Yeah. johno the plumber (29:33) times where things have happened on site where Az (29:35) Yeah. johno the plumber (29:36) the trades been paid, especially like in the domestic sector, like no one's holding retention or anything where in the commercial that they sort of are, like they're holding around five, 10%. Az (29:41) Yeah. They do. Mm. johno the plumber (29:45) Like some of the projects I've done in commercial or anywhere from. Az (29:47) Well. johno the plumber (29:48) where my contract would be anywhere from 200 to 700,000. you think 5 % Az (29:52) Yeah, wow. johno the plumber (29:53) of that margin there is actually held for those mistakes. So going back to the domestic thing, yeah, like I know of a lot of traders who have been paid and they've walked off the job and then all of sudden, know, Az (30:04) Mm. johno the plumber (30:05) something's gone catastrophically wrong. And it's like, well, guys, I need to come in and actually dig up all this silt because the concrete has filled it up with concrete or, know, whatever it might be. Az (30:14) Yeah. johno the plumber (30:14) builders got to wear it and like that's eating into their margin at the end of the day. and like that's, I don't think that's fair at all, you know, but Az (30:21) Yeah. johno the plumber (30:22) again, I can't be expected to wear the mistake because of concrete, put concrete down the pipe, Az (30:27) That's right. johno the plumber (30:28) for example, you know, like, I mean, it only Az (30:29) Mm. johno the plumber (30:30) takes, think, think Damien from the, from the heritage artists and said once, You will go broke over time by slow little cuts, not by big open wounds. And that's all it takes Az (30:38) Yeah. johno the plumber (30:39) is just, you've got several projects on, those slow little incremental cuts that you get that bleed you money. Next thing you Az (30:45) I love it. johno the plumber (30:46) know, two, three years down the track, you're now 500,000 in the hole. How are you ever gonna get out of that? Az (30:53) Yeah. Yeah. No, great piece of advice. And I think Again, you're giving up so much, mate. Like your little process of how you do that work on site with different trades will help negate a few of those little cuts for a lot of our audience out there, mate. So I think that's that's pretty freaking cool. But mate, you've you you've worked for a ton of builders. So you've worked in the commercial space and you've worked in the rese space. What kind of separates the builders that you take jobs from from the builders that you won't take jobs from, Rob? Like what's the what's the ones that you like to keep relationships with and why? johno the plumber (31:25) Definitely the ones that communicate the best, I find. Az (31:28) Yeah. johno the plumber (31:29) You sort of, like I've been doing it long enough to know that when you're dealing with a builder who you sort of, you know, price check in and sort of going for the cheapest quote, I just know the language. And when they, when they email me, when you have more of a personable relationship with the builder, where you're physically talking, especially like with the directors. I find Az (31:47) Yeah, yeah. johno the plumber (31:47) then that I'm like, yeah, there's something good going on here. I was going to make a video on it once before, but I never got around to doing it. But it was like, I still get a lot of email sent to me from just random builders and they won't even address me by my name. It's like they've literally just found me on Google and they've just sent me a quote and I won't even quote it. Like I'm not even going to waste my time Az (32:09) Mm. johno the plumber (32:10) because I know 95 % of the time I'm not even going to win the job. If a builder's Az (32:15) Yeah. johno the plumber (32:16) call, if a builder's calling me and I'm having a conversation with them or there's someone mutual in the company that I know who was I've been recommended or whatever it might be, then I will give it a go then. but yeah, definitely the communication factor is a big, a big thing. And, yeah, like you can just, people give away a lot of hints, you know, in emails or even phone conversation and you're like, I don't think this is going to work. Yeah. Az (32:37) Yeah. No, that's cool. It made it comes down to experience once again, doesn't it, Rob? You know what I mean? Like I'll when I was talking johno the plumber (32:42) Yeah. Yeah. Az (32:44) earlier about my little well, not my little ones, my big fuck ups really. I would you know, when opportunities like that, if that was an example coming through, I would I would have snatched that opportunity, you know, when you're when you're starting out and stuff like that, you'd be like, it's work, it's work, but it's johno the plumber (33:01) Yeah. Az (33:01) all those little things that can give you those little cuts. and maybe those builders not bagging I don't know who you are out there that is doing that and we even get if you hear at the Good Builder and we don't even build, you can tell they're looking for the cheapest price sometimes and and obviously the relationships with some other johno the plumber (33:15) Yeah. Yeah. Az (33:17) ones might have soured too. johno the plumber (33:18) Yeah. And I think like a lot of younger guys, you know, when they're first starting out, they're sort of subcontracting, helping out other companies, but are sort of pricing their own jobs as well. I can understand from their, from their stance that they want to try and price everything that they can. And it's probably a good thing to do anyway, because then you can get the experience of like how you actually, you know, work jobs out, but Az (33:38) Wow. Yeah. johno the plumber (33:40) I mean, even myself as a younger guy back in my, when I first started out, you'll find that you're only winning those jobs because you're the cheapest and you'll Az (33:51) Yeah. johno the plumber (33:52) get halfway into the job. You're like, my God, this is like, I should have had another 50 grand on this. This is why I won the job. And I've done that before too. I've won jobs. Az (34:00) Yeah. johno the plumber (34:01) I've won jobs. I'm just like, no. Az (34:03) Well, johno the plumber (34:03) What was the next price? If I'm 50 grand, what was the next price? 120? Yeah, that probably sounds about right. Az (34:08) Yeah. johno the plumber (34:10) You end up doing the job for enough. I'm like, how can I save money on this? Maybe if I do the whole thing myself, I'll save money. It was just like, Az (34:16) Yeah. mate, that might even be more than death from a thousand cuts. But I I get you. You you you're completely correct. And and again, why we freaking love you, man, and and what you're doing out there, because you you talk about this stuff that that others don't. and and a question kind of kind of goes on from that actually, Rob, is mate. What about the younger we w you talk a bit about the younger guys and I can you know, I can sort of see you talking of a bit more about the apprentices coming through now and stuff like that and you're super passionate about it. I think you gave some brickies out there, young brickies out there are a good hint. I'm s thinking about starting a brickie company, mate, if if this johno the plumber (34:54) Yeah. Az (34:55) doesn't take off, hey, because my father in law's a brickie up in Bunderburg in North n mid north Queensland. I'd never do it there, but I think he's seven he's seventy johno the plumber (35:04) If too hot. Az (35:05) now. mate, I tried. Hey, Rob, I actually went up there 'cause I used to live there for a little while working commercial construction actually for Mervac and I I went up there and one day I had a day off and he's like, Come do some breathing with me and I was like, yeah, no worries. I reckon I lasted half an hour and he's sixty five. Like they are some of the hardest men out there, the the the British, but johno the plumber (35:23) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Az (35:26) I love how you talk about and I love how you're trying to get young people passionate about the industry and showing them the opportunity that they could have. I think your as I said, your post, I think it was seen about a hundred thousand times, but for those kids out there, man, you've got some hints. But what are some of the hints like starting a business that that you would what would be your top Top three that you would tell someone starting a business to try and avoid or or you'd want to talk about, you know, that that'll help them avoid some of those cuts and pain that they might go through. johno the plumber (35:57) Yeah, so three points. One I would say is definitely like you want to talk to your peers. I I think I touched on it before about some guys reaching out to me trying to get some just some brief experience or, know, brief information about, you know, how they should be running their businesses. I think definitely talking to the older guys will help you because they because you will find that a lot of us more experienced guys, we do generally want to help. I think you might get a few guys here and then you would just go, you know, go stuff yourself. I'm not going to help you out at all. But, Az (36:29) Yeah. johno the plumber (36:29) especially for myself, someone who definitely wants to help people out. yeah. So probably that probably talking to your peers. Number two, would say if, if you start now, you're probably, if you're going to get staff, this is a, definitely tricky one. I've tried a few iterations over the years of different sort of cultures within the company. Some things work and some things don't, but definitely with staff, want to set the bar immediately and don't let Az (36:53) the johno the plumber (36:53) it drop. You will find guys in your company will do things, I mean, not all of them, but guys will do things in the company to sort of lower the standard. then you'll, the people around them will see that and they will start dropping the bar. So you've got to be firm all the time. need to just... set your values of what you want and just stick to them all the time. No matter how much it might pain you to keep bringing these things up and sort of reinforcing these values. These are things that you absolutely need to do because you can very quickly become a lower standard of what you're actually aiming for if you let the bar be dropped. So that Az (37:30) I love it. Mm. johno the plumber (37:32) one. And number three, I would say, Definitely try and set your market. So do you wanna just do commercial work? Do you wanna just do excavation or drainage? Or do you wanna do high-end architectural? And just try and stay in that sector. Like get involved on, especially in social media, like you can get hold of these builders. You just gotta harass them, I find. Like you just gotta... Az (37:57) Ha ha ha. johno the plumber (37:58) Send them emails, call them up. Even if they don't answer, just send them a few messages. Just Az (38:03) Yeah. johno the plumber (38:05) try and work your way in. Don't take no for an answer. Eventually, Az (38:08) Yeah. johno the plumber (38:09) they will give you a shot, especially so where I work in the of high-end sort of sector. Az (38:14) Yeah. johno the plumber (38:15) Like any of these guys that I reach out to, you're almost definitely not gonna get a reply back straight away unless you're someone that they already know of. You're gonna get shut down many times and you're probably gonna have to quote a lot of work to get into a certain sector before they actually give you a good go. So I say perseverance Az (38:32) Yeah, wow. johno the plumber (38:33) would be probably number three. Az (38:35) Yeah, love it. Mate, the high end work. So tell me a little bit about the builds that you you do there because just so the builders out in Vic, if they need someone that does the high end work, mate, I think I think you're the man. But yeah, so what do you do there? johno the plumber (38:48) Yeah. Yeah. that, so that, so that started, so as my apprenticeship, I didn't do any sort of high end sort of stuff. was more volume sort of sector. Az (38:57) Yeah. johno the plumber (38:58) I worked in a, in a park cabins place for a couple of years doing plumbing on them, which was really basic. from there, I went into a sub contracting role, you know, sort of going in and out of companies and I sort of dabbled. with some companies of them doing some high-end work. down in Victoria, you you've got places like Turok and Brighton, which is sort of high-end. And I really got Az (39:14) Well yeah, yeah. johno the plumber (39:19) involved in that. I quite found that the smaller the project, the less invested I was in a larger project. really, it was just, I could just map the entire thing in my head. So I really Az (39:29) Well that johno the plumber (39:30) loved that sort of stuff. And I worked for a few other Az (39:32) That's cool. johno the plumber (39:32) guys who were doing sort of architectural things. And then it kind of just fell into my lap. Like I had a few good opportunities come my way for like doing like renos and extensions because I actually did quite a lot of them too. especially in Melbourne, Az (39:45) yeah. johno the plumber (39:45) there's a lot of heritage houses. So Az (39:47) Yeah. johno the plumber (39:48) the front stays on and then they extend and go out or go, you know, like going to a basement or whatever. So Az (39:53) Yeah, yeah. johno the plumber (39:54) it's still technically high end, you know, we'll call Az (39:56) Yeah. johno the plumber (39:57) it. So I had a lot of good opportunities of that sort of stuff coming in and then it sort of grew from there. And it was like, Detention to detail is what I absolutely Az (40:05) Mm. johno the plumber (40:06) love. It's like getting taps on grout lines. It's, know, getting things millimeter perfect. Like I just, I absolutely love that sort of stuff. And it was just heavily involved, very technical. Cause like, cause as I said, you know, the smaller the job, less invested I am. And if it was say like a volume build, then I probably wouldn't like, mean, rough those things in like a day. we're like my Az (40:28) Yeah. johno the plumber (40:28) roughings, my roughings on the projects I do. It takes three weeks because Az (40:32) Yeah, yeah. johno the plumber (40:32) they're absolutely huge. They've got so much involved in them. So yeah, I was lucky in that sense to get a few good opportunities come my way. And then from there, I grew the reputation and then sort of spread out from there. And then, Az (40:47) Yeah. johno the plumber (40:48) now I just do a lot of big projects. So it's good. Az (40:51) You know what they say, Rob. You make your own luck, mate. You know, you johno the plumber (40:54) You Az (40:55) do, mate. And I tell you, because like we, you know, well I I probably don't know the builders that you you worked with, but you know, we know the high-end builders. And you know, I I talked about my business before that was high-end. The average contract was 1.8 million back in 2020. We were building these luxury and you need the best of the best, mate. Like, especially johno the plumber (41:15) Yeah. Az (41:15) for that type of clientele. yeah, it it I think all the pennies. I I I love what you do, mate. I said I'm one of your biggest fans. When we started the pod. And it all the pennies, or or not the pennies, that's probably the wrong word, but everything's starting to drop for me now. And I can see, you know, it can kind of map the person that you are. because johno the plumber (41:33) Hmm. Yeah. Az (41:36) you s you're highly passionate, you're educating the industry, talk about things that we all should be talking about. You just want a better people, you're getting back to all these young blokes. You're getting back to me, people who want to, you know, spread some of this education, and then you work in that high-end space that is highly pressurized in a way of getting the freaking job done right because of the the money that's being spent in the clientele there. So yeah, it's freaking cool, Rob. Well johno the plumber (41:59) Mmm. Yeah. Az (42:03) i inside the industry, and I know a little bit about this and spoke to a little bit about it, but what's been the reaction about John O' the plumber from other plumbers and and people within the industry do you mate? judging by your following, I think it's done pretty well. But yeah, what do you what do you comments do you kinda get out there? johno the plumber (42:21) Yeah, so definitely very early on when I was doing the more sort of controversial sort of stuff, when I was really, really ramping it up, I was getting quite a bit of heat. Az (42:34) Yeah. johno the plumber (42:34) I do have an unbelievably thick skin, so it didn't get to me all that much, but I definitely, when I saw it growing, I wanted to, I was like, I don't think that this is sort of viable in the future, and it's not really who I am. at end of the day, I do want to sort of do the sort of satirical comedy stuff and sort of talking Az (42:52) Yeah. johno the plumber (42:53) about, know, standards and accountability. But I want to do it in a more educational way. a lot of the feedback I get from, actually get a ton of plumbers who follow me and a lot of them message Az (43:04) Yeah. johno the plumber (43:05) me all the time too. And a of the times I say, it's just good to see construction content from a plumbing perspective point of view. Cause I Az (43:12) Yeah. Yeah. johno the plumber (43:14) mean, I don't know how much there is out there in the plumbing space. I know there are a couple of few big channels Az (43:22) Mm. johno the plumber (43:23) who do plumbing, but yeah, I don't think there's anyone sort of doing what I'm doing. And it wasn't like I was doing this in a way to sort of be different from anyone else. It sort of just evolved into this whole thing, but yeah. Az (43:35) Yeah. that's cool. When as I said, you know, Everyone that I've spoken to pretty much knows or follows you now, mate. So and and johno the plumber (43:42) Yeah. Az (43:43) and and the opinion from from those guys was they just can't wait to hear this podcast and and you know what what johno the plumber (43:48) You Az (43:49) yeah they do, mate. And they they got like, you know, want to know you what you're about and you know your work and they know what you're about, but you know, just get to know you, mate. So I think as I said, I think it's pretty cool that you've done that and mate, you've you've you've got a lot of respect in the industry and that's that's kind of shown by your following in the engagement. things mate. I think we're not that we're we're trying to be you or anything like that, but we look at it and and we're like mate you know you're doing some great work out there and reaching the masses. johno the plumber (44:17) Yeah. Az (44:17) So I think you're just going to improve the industry which is super cool. johno the plumber (44:21) Yeah. Az (44:22) mate I have a couple more questions for you. And I think you've kind of touched on this one a little bit actually. And I I didn't really want to finish on a on a negative note or anything. But you know, as I said, the industry talks about compliance and all this stuff going on, all the the defects, insurances, all that stuff. From where you sit, is there any trades that you you see getting better? Are we getting better? Or as we kind of I think both spoke about really earlier, that the the standards have dropped. What do you what's your opinion there, mate? johno the plumber (44:50) I think a few people have touched on this before, Az (44:53) Yeah. johno the plumber (44:54) like probably not on this podcast, but definitely being licensed. Almost anyone can be a brickie or a concrete or like a carpenter or something where like if you're a plumber or electrician, you've got to be registered or licensed. And I think of all the faults that the BPC down in Melbourne have, which they don't have many, you know, they are an authority figure and they come in and they regulate what we do. And I think we really, this is what's missing in our industry is that there needs to be a compliance standard all the time. And, you know, the site inspector guys, there's a few that I follow on Instagram, they do a great job. You know, they're the ones who were sort of enforcing, you know, standards. So I Az (45:36) Yeah. johno the plumber (45:37) think the more, that it goes out there into the atmosphere, the more, hopefully more trades will sort of look at that and go, if I don't do the right thing here, John O'Loughlin is going to be talking about what I'm doing. Or, you know, like another big science specter like Az (45:53) Yeah. johno the plumber (45:53) that, that, he's known the site. Yeah. Yeah. That guy. Yeah. Az (45:55) The here. Yeah. johno the plumber (45:58) He's got millions of followers. I think what Az (45:59) Yeah. johno the plumber (46:00) he, I think what he does is great. I Az (46:02) Yeah. johno the plumber (46:02) didn't know much of his earlier stuff, but I think what he does is great because he really sheds a lot on what goes on. He walks up to houses and there's meant to be a heabel there and he's punching a pen through it and it's just bloody fine, stuff like that. Az (46:13) mate. no. johno the plumber (46:15) So then clients in the industry can actually observe these things. Again, it's sort of a pendulum thing where clients or potential clients might be looking at those sort of videos or anything that I do and just go. these fucking trades are all the same, know, and it's just like, it's not like that all the time. Like you just, you're getting fed like negative stuff all the time. So we need to look at the positives as well as the negatives. I think, keeping that standard high, think, I think the site, as I said, the site inspectors do a great job. They're always highlighting Az (46:44) Yeah. johno the plumber (46:45) things. And then even me too, like I go into some projects where people pay me to come in and I'll actually consult on their job and I'll have look at. plumbing, Az (46:53) why? johno the plumber (46:53) I did one just the other day when I went underneath the subfloor to look at something and I just I now noticed the sewer which was completely non-compliant so I had to raise up with the client there too. Az (47:05) Was that that recent video you put up, Rob? Yeah. That was wild. johno the plumber (47:07) About, yeah, yeah, yeah. So me in the sub floor, that's the one. Yeah. So that what they did. Yeah. So what, to be honest, I actually went into the sub for a few times and I went past these things and I didn't even look at it. it's, these are the things that you don't notice. Like when you're looking for something out Az (47:22) Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. johno the plumber (47:24) there, especially as a client, like they just, they don't know these things. And then it wasn't until I Az (47:27) No. johno the plumber (47:27) just turned around, I went, what's going on here? And then I started looking at the entire thing. I my God, like this entire sewer is, has been done. Az (47:35) Mm. johno the plumber (47:35) in 88 degree junctions. I'm not sure if you know what that means, but it's like that you need a 45 sweep going into the junction. And what they've used is like basically like a, like a T piece of the thing. Yeah. So it was just, Az (47:46) wow Jeez. johno the plumber (47:48) it's a massive issue. The client, Az (47:49) wow. johno the plumber (47:50) the client was a bit shocked when I sort of explained it to him about what it is. And he actually said he hasn't had any blockages, which I'm so much, I'm, glad he hasn't, but yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty bad. It's pretty fucked. Az (48:01) It's probably common. johno the plumber (48:02) stuff that goes on. Yeah. It's just the stuff that goes on out there. So, but, I think, yeah, maybe getting more people licensed, but, you know, Az (48:10) Yeah, I mean it's cool. Good point. johno the plumber (48:13) where do we go from there with licensing? You know, I mean, Az (48:16) Yeah. johno the plumber (48:17) if, if, if anyone can be a brickie or a concrete or which at the end of the day, I don't know, like does a brickie need to be licensed to, to lay bricks? You know, probably not, but Az (48:26) Mm. johno the plumber (48:27) like, yeah, like there needs to be sort of a a check that's going on. Yeah. Az (48:30) some sort of regulation. No, I agree. I I I absolutely agree because I think, you know, the rise of and I'm not having a shot at Zaheer and site inspector and stuff like that. And the rest of the site inspectors that are content, you know, not content creators, but are creating content around this at the moment. If if we didn't have these issues, Rob, then we wouldn't have we wouldn't have they wouldn't have content to make. And and I don't want them to not have content to make, but It's it's kind of not their fault in a way. And and what we're seeing in the market actually, Robin, I reckon you're seeing it a fair bit down in Melbourne, because we we surveyed about five thousand customers not long ago, build customers, and we're trying to, you know, like you, we're trying to educate the industry and we put these articles out there and reports and things like that. And we ask these customers what's your what's your biggest thing about building a new home? Like what are you what are you actually worried about? What are you happy about? What are you looking at? And what came out of it, Matt mate, was they're not people aren't excited for building so much anymore. They're not like excited like they used to be. I remember back in 2012, 2010, when I was starting out with GJ Gardner, that when people would come into us, they'd be excited and and and be really aspirational about building their home. The responses we got back in 2026, Rob, was They're trying to de-risk building. So they're just trying to de-risk the experience. They're trying to find a builder that's going to look the less riskiest, just so they can just get through the build and get into their freaking home with the least risk. They're not johno the plumber (50:00) Yeah. Az (50:01) like excited. They're kind of scared for it, but they want to do it. And that's kind of sad, man. Sad. johno the plumber (50:04) Yeah, the relationship, there's been a massive breakdown in the relationships between clients and builders where Az (50:12) Yeah. johno the plumber (50:13) we definitely see that. And I've been part of many projects where it has gone absolutely south and sideways with a client between them and the builder. And then the whole job just suffers. And then you just think, what's going to happen at the end of this thing? I mean, I touched on one the other day about Az (50:30) Yeah. johno the plumber (50:31) a builder. finish your project. And this wasn't part of the contract or anything, the clients, he handed over the project. I'm not sure what his final claim was. was pretty substantial. Az (50:40) Yeah. johno the plumber (50:41) They put the house on the market. They sold it. I mean, he's got nothing to do with the market value. Like it's just completely out of his thing, but they sold it for less than what they thought they would get for it. And they just said, Az (50:51) Where johno the plumber (50:52) well, we can't pay your final bill. And he's just like, what are you talking about? Like if you had have sold it for, a mil or two more than what the asking price was. Would you have given me more money? Of course they wouldn't have. so there's this, everyone's got their heels dug into the sand so far. need to just have almost like a mediator sometimes. Someone would just go, the builder's not looking to screw you around, but there are many builders out there who don't, who do screw people around. And Az (51:19) Yeah. johno the plumber (51:19) that's the problem there too. So we need to just get these things out of the industry. need to... build back these relationships so the client's got a good relationship with the builder, the builder's got a great relationship with their trades as you said, and then it Az (51:31) Yeah. johno the plumber (51:31) all just trickles down from there. like I can totally agree, back in 2010, 2012, all those days, things were great. The clients would Az (51:38) Yeah. johno the plumber (51:39) come onto site, they were happy as the wife would turn up with a big, big bloody case of donuts and just give them to all the trades. You don't see that anymore. They turn up and they're just like, you What are these bloody tradesmen doing to my house? of thing. Az (51:53) Yeah. johno the plumber (51:54) We generally care about your place. We're not trying to do a dodgy here or anything like that. yeah, Az (52:01) Yeah. johno the plumber (52:02) the heels are gonna be dug out of the sand and relationships Az (52:04) I love it. johno the plumber (52:05) need to come back and just have a healthy thing going once again. Az (52:09) Yeah, yeah, I love it, mate. And I and I reckon I'm not putting all the weight on your shoulders, mate, by any means, but I reckon you're you are part of the solution. Because you're I think your your stuff, I bet you have a lot of people that are not tradespeople or in the construction industry that subscribe to you. You've got to, you've got a massive following, mate. I bet you you johno the plumber (52:27) Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Az (52:29) do. And do you know what? That'd be watching your stuff, and this is what I did. I when I watched your stuff first of all, I went, thank fucking God there's someone out there who gives a shit. And it made johno the plumber (52:38) Yeah. Az (52:38) me have some some like feeling of of lightness for the industry. I was like, there's a light at the end of the fucking tunnel. There's guys johno the plumber (52:43) Yeah. Yeah. Az (52:45) like this out there. And then you know, your forty thousand, forty plus thousand subscribers, obviously they kind of are attuned or or want to be like you and they look up to you and all that sort of stuff like I do. I know sorry if it's a little bit embarrassing, but it's for real. And and they want to be like that. And I think you do that's why I say you're doing a service for the industry. I think it's great what you do, man. Like I I johno the plumber (53:06) Yeah. And you know what? There's plenty of guys out there who care just as much as me, if not more. If not more, it's just that I Az (53:12) no. Okay. johno the plumber (53:15) can jump in front of a camera and do it. Az (53:17) Yeah. johno the plumber (53:18) But yeah, I think we touched on this before about the young fellows coming through. We have got Az (53:23) Yeah. johno the plumber (53:23) to get these kids to the standard of this care factor that's just all the way up here. Az (53:30) Yeah. johno the plumber (53:31) And you can only do that by teaching them. Az (53:34) Yep. Yep. And by and and with blokes like you, mate, I think that's where it's at. You know, people that have had their I mean, you got skin in the game. You've been skin in the game for 24 years. and you've been there and done that. I think it's I think it's wonderful, mate. I could talk to you all day, but unfortunately I've got one more question and what we'll do is we'll put all the links below for for Rob, his business, John over the plum plumber profile. you know, anyone who follows us at the Good Builder probably already follows you. So I'll try and get you one more follower, mate, maybe. But I have one last qu question for you, mate. you know we're called the Good Builder. What do you think makes a good builder? johno the plumber (54:12) integrity. Yeah. Integrity. Just, just, yeah. Az (54:13) Love it. Just integrity, that's one word. johno the plumber (54:17) Just one word. Integrity. Just, just having, well, it's probably not one word. It's probably a big thing, but, yeah, just, Az (54:22) No, I love it. It's cool. johno the plumber (54:24) just, just being really honest, like looking out for each other. Communication's a big thing. Paying the bills is another big thing, but, yeah, yeah. Az (54:31) Yeah. Yeah. You've got to have integrity to pay bills. johno the plumber (54:36) well, yeah, yeah, true. Yeah, sorry, integrity. Az (54:37) Yeah. No. I love it. I I I think we need more of that as an industry. It's pretty simple johno the plumber (54:43) Mm-hmm. Az (54:43) kind of thing, isn't it? You know what I mean? We I think we talk a lot about and this is why I wanted you on, we talk a lot about all the issues, we talk about all these things that people Maybe shouldn't say this, but use those excuses. No good trades, no this, no that. But if we all work with integrity and we all did that, we'd have a better industry as a whole and we wouldn't have these issues, I truly believe. I think that's kind of nipping it in the bud right at where we need to be. And I love what johno the plumber (55:06) Yeah. Az (55:07) you said about taking your heels out of the sand, sort of digging your heels in the sand and you know, meet people you know, at their level or talking to. Yeah, I johno the plumber (55:14) You've got to mate each other halfway. Yeah, definitely. Az (55:17) think it's super cool, mate. Well, As I said, we'll put everything below so you can check out what what Rob does and and all that thing and and follow his profiles. Mate, this is one off the bucket list for me. you're probably the first kind of what I would say and sorry to say it, but what I feel is a rock star that I've had on the podcast. johno the plumber (55:35) Hahaha Az (55:36) I I know it is, mate, I don't know. It's so weird. I'm a weird bloke. I everyone knows I'm a weird bloke. I really like I don't look up to sporting stars. I don't look up to rock stars. I don't look up to any of that shit. But 'cause I've been in the industry and I reckon it's the hardest industry in the world, I look up to people who make a difference in this industry and who are successful because I don't think rock stars are Maybe I shouldn't say this 'cause maybe some sports stars couldn't. I do know an ex Wallaby who's a good builder, but you know, sports stars couldn't do what we do, so I I really appreciate your time and and I I have the greatest respect for you, mate. And johno the plumber (56:07) Anytime, Yeah, you too. Az (56:10) And hopefully I don't wanna put any words in Rob's mouth, but we're gonna be running a golf day down in Victoria and I have extended the invitation out to Rob. So November fifteen, we're gonna be down at Moonar Links. And I'm not gonna say that Rob's gonna be there, but I have extended the invitation. So hopefully we get to meet each other in person, mate, and I can't wait. You're johno the plumber (56:30) He has a very good chance over there. Az (56:32) mate, cool. Drinks, lunch. We've got a four course lunch. Drinks are on us. Eighteen holes, competitions. You can win ten grand and stuff like that. There's gonna be a bunch. And I know you said you're not a good goal for another amide, but we might fluke it, mate. I think we'll play Amber's. And I johno the plumber (56:43) I'll just be putting the whole way down. Az (56:50) know a couple of good I know I know one dude who's a real good driver and he can drive it like a motherfucker. So I think we'll get him on our team and then we'll putt and chip away and we might be okay. We'll see how we go. Try and win that. johno the plumber (56:58) Yeah. So to me. Az (57:02) Ten grand. Anyway, mate. once again, thank you so much, Rob. as I said, like I am blown away that I've been able to have you on here and I appreciate and and everyone appreciates that I talk to and not and you forty plus thousand people, what you do. So thank you. johno the plumber (57:17) Thank you. Az (57:18) All right, mate.