Latest / Monero Talk / Is Bitcoin’s censorship resistance failing? w/ Juraj Bednár EPI #294
Transcript
- 1 00:00:00,719 --> 00:00:04,440 if you are running a business you are 2 00:00:02,639 --> 00:00:06,279 supposed to follow these sanctions you 3 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:11,480 know you are supposed to check if you're 4 00:00:06,279 --> 00:00:15,320 not um not helping this sanctions person 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:17,439 to use their money um and with Monero 6 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,680 you just have one less problem because 7 00:00:17,439 --> 00:00:21,880 there's no way to tell so you know you 8 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:25,000 did all you could to tell if you're not 9 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:28,560 helping sanctioned persons uh you looked 10 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:30,679 at the transactions all look the same so 11 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,360 uh no problem so so 12 00:00:30,679 --> 00:00:35,760 yes it is easier as long as it is not 13 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,760 bent 14 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:43,039 completely Monero talk is sponsored by 15 00:00:40,559 --> 00:00:44,719 Cake wallet a trustless open- source 16 00:00:43,039 --> 00:00:47,360 wallet that gives you the keys to your 17 00:00:44,719 --> 00:00:50,680 crypto invoice donate and trade your 18 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:54,039 Monera with peace of mind piece of cake 19 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:56,399 and by stealthy X an instant exchange 20 00:00:54,039 --> 00:00:59,199 where privacy is a top concern go to 21 00:00:56,399 --> 00:01:02,199 stealth ex. to instantly exchange 22 00:00:59,199 --> 00:01:03,719 between Monero and 450 plus assets 23 00:01:02,199 --> 00:01:06,159 without having to create an account or 24 00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:08,320 register and with no limits making 25 00:01:06,159 --> 00:01:11,280 stealthy x a simple way to purchase 26 00:01:08,320 --> 00:01:13,720 Monero with crypto 27 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,920 anonymously Monero talk has also made 28 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,280 possible from contributions by viewers 29 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:21,079 and listeners like you and supporting us 30 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:23,600 is easier than ever by typing in Monero 31 00:01:21,079 --> 00:01:27,720 talk.c crypto in your mono.com or cak 32 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,720 wallet send address field to send us a 33 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,640 tip 34 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:36,119 this week on Monero 35 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:38,799 talk Douglas tuman interviews URI Bednar 36 00:01:36,119 --> 00:01:40,720 an OG crypto Anarchist and entrepreneur 37 00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:42,560 active in the Bitcoin and hacking 38 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,079 communities together they discuss 39 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,439 censorship of certain Bitcoin 40 00:01:44,079 --> 00:01:48,159 transactions such as coin join what 41 00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:50,280 would happen if a group of censoring 42 00:01:48,159 --> 00:01:53,000 mining pools would exceed 50% of the 43 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:55,640 hash rate how monero's total fungibility 44 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,039 gives centralized actors deniability 45 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,479 when questioned by the government 46 00:01:57,039 --> 00:02:02,119 compared to bitcoin possible solutions 47 00:01:59,479 --> 00:02:03,640 toit bitcoin's fees and scaling problems 48 00:02:02,119 --> 00:02:05,960 whether Bitcoin is living up to its 49 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:10,599 crypto Anarchist roots and much 50 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:10,599 more narrow Talk starts 51 00:02:11,820 --> 00:02:14,880 [Music] 52 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:22,440 now all 53 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:25,360 right you're good morning good morning 54 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,480 deck my morning your afternoon or 55 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:31,560 actually I don't know where you are 56 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:34,319 these days yes it's afternoon 1 M okay 57 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,800 right now you're you're you're back in 58 00:02:34,319 --> 00:02:40,400 uh you're back in the 59 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:43,680 Homeland yes yes for a few 60 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:47,640 days I'm getting prepared there's the 61 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:50,239 largest European Hecker conference uh 62 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:54,480 between Christmas and New Year in 63 00:02:50,239 --> 00:02:57,400 Germany all right and it's four uh it it 64 00:02:54,480 --> 00:03:03,440 was run uh running it was supposed to be 65 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:07,560 40 uh uh year so it's as old as me but 66 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:11,799 unfortunately during covid the it didn't 67 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:15,400 happen because of the German 68 00:03:11,799 --> 00:03:18,879 paranoia and uh I'm excited after three 69 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,799 years I get to see thousands of 70 00:03:18,879 --> 00:03:25,000 hackers otherwise it would have been the 71 00:03:20,799 --> 00:03:29,519 40th Year yes wow I didn't realize it 72 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:30,879 was that that old wow who it is it is 73 00:03:29,519 --> 00:03:35,599 who who started 74 00:03:30,879 --> 00:03:38,400 that uh it's um uh chaos communication 75 00:03:35,599 --> 00:03:43,200 Congress so there they have been uh they 76 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:45,840 had something like um um like a hacker 77 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:48,879 space or something like that uh movement 78 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:52,360 in Germany for quite a long time um uh 79 00:03:48,879 --> 00:03:55,560 they have clubs cares communication club 80 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:58,640 uh and you can actually it's very 81 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:00,680 interesting um Hecker history in Europe 82 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:03,200 uh there's a 83 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:08,840 um there's a really interesting book 84 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:12,200 about it um because the KGB used to pay 85 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:16,280 um East German and West German hackers 86 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:17,759 with money and cocaine to hack into like 87 00:04:16,280 --> 00:04:22,680 us 88 00:04:17,759 --> 00:04:24,280 um uh us uh like um nuclear research 89 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,680 facilities and stuff like that it's a 90 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:30,280 fascinating story and there has been a 91 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:33,440 movie about that which is called 23 92 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:36,560 like the number 23 uh and it has quite a 93 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:39,280 lot of European Hecker history so I 94 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:42,680 highly recommend uh watching it and 95 00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:45,560 there's this story of of hacking of the 96 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:48,360 US nuclear program but also of the of 97 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:51,840 the like early heck Hecker culture in 98 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:54,360 Germany so a good watch for the for the 99 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:56,080 holidays that is a good watch that's 100 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:59,039 amazing I didn't realize I didn't 101 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,880 realize it was that old um I know we we 102 00:04:59,039 --> 00:05:03,320 interviewed people from there a couple 103 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:06,919 of years ago when uh there were some 104 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:09,600 Monero speakers uh Monero talks going on 105 00:05:06,919 --> 00:05:11,160 over there at the Packers Congress but I 106 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,639 never realized it was that old 40 years 107 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:17,320 old that's amazing yes although you know 108 00:05:14,639 --> 00:05:20,120 I look at Bitcoin and it's like you know 109 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:22,280 we're not talking three years five years 110 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:26,880 we're we're we're in decades now right 111 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:29,000 like yes yes like I can't believe yeah 112 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:32,160 we're this far along right before you 113 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,639 know it we're be like H 20 years in 114 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:38,639 Bitcoin uh which is why I want to bring 115 00:05:34,639 --> 00:05:42,520 you on man um you're obvious you're one 116 00:05:38,639 --> 00:05:46,440 of the most uh I guess one of the most 117 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:48,960 well-versed bitcoiners I know um one of 118 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:51,759 those that's you know truly sticking to 119 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:53,360 this the cipher Punk crypto crypto 120 00:05:51,759 --> 00:05:57,000 Anarchist 121 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:59,560 ideals um you have an ability to I feel 122 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,479 like like to really have that aders 123 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,960 Arial mindset and understand the 124 00:06:01,479 --> 00:06:06,199 ecosystem and what the attack vectors 125 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,039 may be uh so I want to bring you on 126 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:09,800 because I feel like there's a lot going 127 00:06:08,039 --> 00:06:11,880 on in Bitcoin land right now obviously 128 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:15,560 you have like the ETF that's happening 129 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:17,599 and I feel like 98% of bitcoiners are 130 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,479 focused on that but then you have all 131 00:06:17,599 --> 00:06:21,639 this this other stuff that's happening 132 00:06:19,479 --> 00:06:24,400 on on the side like we're seeing 133 00:06:21,639 --> 00:06:28,840 potentially more ofac compliant mining 134 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:31,880 happening we're seeing um uh kyc mining 135 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:36,240 pools become popular we're 136 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:39,680 seeing uh you know miners potentially 137 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,560 trying to censor certain certain types 138 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,720 of transactions not even just ofac 139 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,680 complying transactions but uh 140 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,400 transactions that don't have ordinals in 141 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:51,160 them or nfts so I want to bring you on 142 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:54,639 to get get your take and understanding 143 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:56,360 of how you currently see the Bitcoin 144 00:06:54,639 --> 00:06:57,960 ecosystem I actually haven't been 145 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,240 following that closely I'm over here in 146 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:03,360 Monero land using my my digital cash 147 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,520 talking about that all the time uh but I 148 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,960 see these things going on and I want to 149 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,840 try to have a better understanding of of 150 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,039 what what is really happening that's 151 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,280 that's why I wanted to reach out to you 152 00:07:12,039 --> 00:07:16,919 sure let's do it I haven't been 153 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:20,440 following the monkey jpex on bitcoin 154 00:07:16,919 --> 00:07:23,720 that much either but the mining stuff 155 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:25,319 and everything is interesting so yeah 156 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,440 let's let's start with that because I 157 00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:30,479 think the first time I had you on was I 158 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,560 don't know was maybe three years ago now 159 00:07:30,479 --> 00:07:34,039 I don't know like like we say 160 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,560 everything's moving so fast and we had a 161 00:07:34,039 --> 00:07:38,240 fantastic conversation it was about an 162 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:42,680 article or a Blog you had posted where 163 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:44,879 you laid out um what ofac compliant May 164 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:47,039 compliance may look like on the Bitcoin 165 00:07:44,879 --> 00:07:49,039 mining Network and you kind of played 166 00:07:47,039 --> 00:07:51,840 out the game theory of how it could 167 00:07:49,039 --> 00:07:54,599 happen uh and this was this was early on 168 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:56,599 this was before we had even I think I 169 00:07:54,599 --> 00:07:59,039 think even seen the first attempts at 170 00:07:56,599 --> 00:08:01,479 doing it and you kind of described how 171 00:07:59,039 --> 00:08:03,479 it could could happen and then how 172 00:08:01,479 --> 00:08:05,080 perhaps the larger mining Network could 173 00:08:03,479 --> 00:08:07,199 start could start to adopt it and do 174 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,280 that so why don't we talk about that 175 00:08:07,199 --> 00:08:14,280 issue because I think recently we saw 176 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:17,039 some other uh attempts at mo mo you know 177 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:19,919 moving the the the Bitcoin mining 178 00:08:17,039 --> 00:08:22,720 ecosystem in this direction what is your 179 00:08:19,919 --> 00:08:24,800 current take there have things kind of 180 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:27,000 played out to what you had originally 181 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:30,879 theorized or are they starting to play 182 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:34,320 out in that in that way so 183 00:08:30,879 --> 00:08:37,839 uh not necessarily I think there's a 184 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:40,519 qualitative switch uh which happens when 185 00:08:37,839 --> 00:08:43,760 more than half of the miners start 186 00:08:40,519 --> 00:08:47,480 sensoring and they start sensoring also 187 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:50,120 blocks of uh of the non- censoring 188 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:52,800 miners that's the that's uh the point 189 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:55,560 when you will have completely censored 190 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,680 Bitcoin so I will I will explain what 191 00:08:55,560 --> 00:09:02,680 that means that would mean basically a 192 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:05,240 soft Fork uh so for those who are kind 193 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:09,200 of Lo lost in terms of soft fork and 194 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:12,040 hard Fork so Monero does hard Fork um I 195 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:15,440 think roughly every six months if I'm 196 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:20,560 not mistaken or maybe once a year and 197 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:24,040 hard Fork um is um relaxing of the rules 198 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:28,560 so it introduces a new feature by saying 199 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:30,480 okay uh now uh something that was not a 200 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:34,240 valid trans C setion or a valid block 201 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:39,320 will will be a valid block a soft Fork 202 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:42,480 um is relax uh uh is um not relaxing but 203 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:45,079 it's making the rules more strict so 204 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,720 that would be censorship for example uh 205 00:09:45,079 --> 00:09:49,600 but uh it's 206 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:53,000 also uh also a way to introduce new 207 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:58,959 features for example uh segit was a was 208 00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:01,120 a soft Fork um on on bitcoin so um so if 209 00:09:58,959 --> 00:10:04,680 let let's say all the miners at the at 210 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:07,839 the same time they decide okay uh no 211 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:11,040 monkey jpex you know if we identify that 212 00:10:07,839 --> 00:10:15,600 this is a bad transaction we will just 213 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:17,600 not mine it uh so all the users that are 214 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,720 running their node 215 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:23,560 software they see a valid chain uh it 216 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:26,880 passes all the checks because uh it just 217 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:29,360 doesn't include some transactions but uh 218 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:32,480 the transactions that are included are 219 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:35,839 all valid so miners can introduce soft 220 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:38,959 fork for hard Fork you need to convince 221 00:10:35,839 --> 00:10:42,639 every note Runner to actually upgrade as 222 00:10:38,959 --> 00:10:44,760 well uh So Soft Fork is backwards 223 00:10:42,639 --> 00:10:45,720 compatible you don't have to touch your 224 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,639 Note 225 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:53,920 software uh and uh you 226 00:10:49,639 --> 00:10:56,760 basically uh like uh unless you were 227 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:59,279 looking at the M Pool and some auditing 228 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:02,160 P Pages you wouldn't even notice that a 229 00:10:59,279 --> 00:11:04,920 soft Fork happened without without you 230 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:07,079 doing anything so it's basically not 231 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:12,000 including um 232 00:11:07,079 --> 00:11:15,399 transactions of certain type or um or 233 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:20,760 based on some kind of rule for example 234 00:11:15,399 --> 00:11:25,120 uh the uh ofc U sanction address or 235 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:27,360 monkey jpeg or whatever uh to Big op 236 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:31,440 return op return is a way to include 237 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:34,519 data so some some notes allow only 40 238 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:39,600 bytes some notes allow 80 bytes and 239 00:11:34,519 --> 00:11:44,560 don't propagate don't mine um so uh for 240 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:48,079 soft Fork uh you need uh compliance of 241 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:51,000 more than half of the hash hash rate 242 00:11:48,079 --> 00:11:55,120 that's the that's the rule uh other than 243 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:57,440 that uh what would happen is that uh a 244 00:11:55,120 --> 00:12:00,519 sensoring minor could say okay I'm not 245 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:02,519 including the monkey jpeg but uh the 246 00:12:00,519 --> 00:12:05,399 next minor will include it because it 247 00:12:02,519 --> 00:12:09,040 pays the fee so what is happening right 248 00:12:05,399 --> 00:12:12,800 now is that there's a mining pool uh 249 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:15,760 called ocean uh which uh doesn't include 250 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:18,680 certain transactions it's based I think 251 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:22,800 one one of the rules is uh it's based on 252 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:26,519 the length of the oper turn uh which uh 253 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:30,160 uh covers not only monkey jpex but uh uh 254 00:12:26,519 --> 00:12:34,000 if I uh understand it correct irly or 255 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:38,480 also uh the first transaction in Samurai 256 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:41,680 coin joint for example the world so 257 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,519 so s yeah the whirlpool transactions 258 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:44,800 right in Samurai are effectively being 259 00:12:43,519 --> 00:12:49,079 filtered 260 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:54,040 out uh I'm not yes yes yes you're right 261 00:12:49,079 --> 00:12:58,839 um so uh so what happens is okay uh the 262 00:12:54,040 --> 00:13:00,800 ocean pool um is is mining it sees some 263 00:12:58,839 --> 00:13:03,519 transactions in the mempool but it 264 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,120 decides according to its rules I am not 265 00:13:03,519 --> 00:13:08,800 going to include this transaction 266 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:10,160 because uh uh I'm configured to reject 267 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,440 these kind of 268 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:16,199 transactions uh so they mine a block 269 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:20,240 without these transactions included even 270 00:13:16,199 --> 00:13:24,120 though they pay uh large enough fee high 271 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:26,639 enough fee and uh what happens uh 272 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:29,839 because it's a minority pool what 273 00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:31,000 happens is that uh the next Miner will 274 00:13:29,839 --> 00:13:35,440 probably mine 275 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:38,320 it so there are a few things to uh to 276 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:42,320 unpack here so first of all 277 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:44,880 um the only thing that happens is that 278 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,199 uh the transactions are mined a little 279 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:51,560 bit later I don't know what's the 280 00:13:47,199 --> 00:13:53,639 current hash rate of ocean but uh but uh 281 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:56,199 when when I was looking at it they they 282 00:13:53,639 --> 00:13:59,560 created one block per week or something 283 00:13:56,199 --> 00:14:01,759 so it's not like you know you're waiting 284 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:05,519 twice as long or something for for your 285 00:14:01,759 --> 00:14:08,160 transaction to it was actually um a bit 286 00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:10,680 of research um of people who who were 287 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,360 looking at mempool and seeing what 288 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:14,720 transactions should be included in the 289 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:18,079 next block and why they were not 290 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:20,720 included to figure out that what kind of 291 00:14:18,079 --> 00:14:23,880 transactions they're uh they're not 292 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:27,040 including uh from the point of view of 293 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:29,800 for example Samurai warple 294 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:32,639 user uh it's not a big problem they they 295 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,759 will just wait one more one more block 296 00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:39,440 and it's okay so far because of the hash 297 00:14:34,759 --> 00:14:42,519 rate uh from the point of view of Miner 298 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:47,120 uh that is using the ocean mining pool 299 00:14:42,519 --> 00:14:48,720 uh they're losing on fees because uh the 300 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,639 the mining pool the software of the 301 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:54,639 mining pool decided okay uh we are not 302 00:14:51,639 --> 00:14:57,199 mining this transaction even though we 303 00:14:54,639 --> 00:15:00,360 would make more in fees by including 304 00:14:57,199 --> 00:15:02,600 this transaction so basically if you are 305 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:07,000 a user of this pool you're not 306 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:09,279 maximizing your profit so uh so um first 307 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,560 of all I think it's not a good service 308 00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:15,839 for the miners right now because they're 309 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:20,959 losing some Revenue uh probably it will 310 00:15:15,839 --> 00:15:25,560 not be much but uh but still I think the 311 00:15:20,959 --> 00:15:29,759 service that the pool provides is uh 312 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:32,959 um well they they they provide um uh 313 00:15:29,759 --> 00:15:38,120 kind of reducing the V variability of 314 00:15:32,959 --> 00:15:41,399 rewards uh by splitting the rewards of 315 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:45,519 the proportional to the hash rate uh to 316 00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:47,639 all the miners so normally if you are if 317 00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:50,680 you would be a solo Miner if you would 318 00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:54,319 not mine in a mining pool you would find 319 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:57,440 you know one block for per I don't know 320 00:15:54,319 --> 00:16:00,199 five years depending on your hash rate 321 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,680 um if you use a mining pool the goal is 322 00:16:00,199 --> 00:16:07,440 to have the have basically the same 323 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:09,440 reward but split over the time uh um or 324 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,480 distributed over the over the time as 325 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:15,639 you're as you're 326 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:17,920 mining so uh right now um it's I think 327 00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:22,040 not a very good service for the miners 328 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:25,519 but uh but it's not a big problem so my 329 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:31,440 article was about this this qualitative 330 00:16:25,519 --> 00:16:34,600 switch so what if um ocean said uh that 331 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:37,880 not only I do not M these transactions 332 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,920 but if anyone else Minds them I will 333 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,000 discard the block that's the soft Fork I 334 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:45,959 will say 335 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:48,440 okay someone else might uh uh whatever 336 00:16:45,959 --> 00:16:50,759 Let's uh let's pick the warpool 337 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,920 transaction someone else mind the 338 00:16:50,759 --> 00:16:54,880 wordpool 339 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:57,079 transaction and because of my 340 00:16:54,880 --> 00:17:00,079 configuration I decided that this is not 341 00:16:57,079 --> 00:17:03,319 a valid block so I will throw it out and 342 00:17:00,079 --> 00:17:07,439 I don't I don't care about the block and 343 00:17:03,319 --> 00:17:10,439 I will continue uh mining the chain uh 344 00:17:07,439 --> 00:17:15,760 that doesn't include uh this block so 345 00:17:10,439 --> 00:17:17,880 right now because ocean has almost uh uh 346 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,679 it it has very very small hash rate 347 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:25,199 compared to the rest of the network like 348 00:17:20,679 --> 00:17:28,480 0.4% or something um what would happen 349 00:17:25,199 --> 00:17:30,280 is that ocean would not mine any any 350 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:34,000 blocks and they would basically 351 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:37,760 disappear from the radar but what if uh 352 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:42,799 ocean became part of a cartel or part of 353 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:45,559 a similarly configured um U mining pools 354 00:17:42,799 --> 00:17:48,200 that would have more than half of the HH 355 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:51,720 rate then the situation would flip 356 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:54,679 completely because the minority miners 357 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:58,840 would include these transactions but the 358 00:17:54,679 --> 00:18:01,880 majority would reject them so actually 359 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:04,240 the miners that were not sensoring would 360 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:09,320 be left out they they would not be part 361 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:12,840 of the of the longest proof of work uh 362 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:16,799 uh chain or didn't include the the most 363 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:18,919 work which is the Criterium for uh for 364 00:18:16,799 --> 00:18:22,000 which chain is actually the truth as 365 00:18:18,919 --> 00:18:24,080 seen um by the network so even though 366 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:30,559 they would be sensoring uh what would 367 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:33,679 happen is that U uh that uh basically 368 00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:35,880 even even if my note would see okay 369 00:18:33,679 --> 00:18:37,080 these guys are not including some some 370 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,320 of the valid 371 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:43,799 transactions uh the rule is I follow the 372 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:48,280 longest chain that follows the rules so 373 00:18:43,799 --> 00:18:52,480 I would uh um so my note without again 374 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:54,480 any sensoring changes um uh in 375 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,159 configuration in my node my node would 376 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,960 just follow the sensoring 377 00:18:56,159 --> 00:19:02,799 chain um so right now now it's not a 378 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:06,799 problem uh there are there is uh 379 00:19:02,799 --> 00:19:09,360 actually to the to uh credit of uh ocean 380 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:11,720 what they are uh trying to implement as 381 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:12,799 soon as possible is a protocol called 382 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,720 stratum 383 00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:18,240 2 uh I think I mentioned it last time I 384 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:22,720 was on the on the show as well and there 385 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:24,799 are there is uh I think one or two um 386 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:28,400 one or two pools that already 387 00:19:24,799 --> 00:19:31,720 implemented it um it's a new protocol uh 388 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:34,559 for mining uh which allows the end 389 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,280 miners to construct the block so it 390 00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:39,200 doesn't it wouldn't matter if you use 391 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,799 this protocol to connect to the pool uh 392 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,640 The Miner itself would provide a block 393 00:19:41,799 --> 00:19:47,200 template and it doesn't matter how the 394 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:50,000 how the pool is configured because uh 395 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:52,360 The Miner would mine a valid block and 396 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,559 they would just broadcast it uh uh to 397 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:59,559 the network and uh it does so so in this 398 00:19:55,559 --> 00:20:01,559 case um uh uh what matters is the 399 00:19:59,559 --> 00:20:04,360 configuration of the of the end minor 400 00:20:01,559 --> 00:20:07,559 not of the pool so that that would be 401 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:10,720 great uh it's being slowly deployed uh 402 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:12,799 it's uh I'm joking that it's a little 403 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:16,559 bit like the light Network that used to 404 00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:19,640 be 18 months in the future for a few 405 00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:21,720 years now now now lightning is quite 406 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,360 okay so so stratum has been in 407 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,880 development for stratum 2 has been in 408 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:29,960 development for quite a long time too 409 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:35,679 but now it's slowly being deployed and 410 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:39,240 um as um uh as uh miners start using it 411 00:20:35,679 --> 00:20:43,000 I think um I think it's going to help a 412 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:47,480 lot uh so that's the that that's the 413 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:50,880 kind of first overview uh and one major 414 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:53,280 question right now is who are the miners 415 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,919 or pools depending on who creates the 416 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,640 block templates where are they and what 417 00:20:55,919 --> 00:21:03,440 do what do they have to do 418 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:07,159 because if I was for example in the US 419 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:11,039 and the state told me you cannot Mine 420 00:21:07,159 --> 00:21:13,400 Blocks uh that include the sanction 421 00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:15,400 transactions otherwise whatever you'll 422 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:19,400 go to jail or you'll have to pay a fine 423 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:23,159 or something I wouldn't want to threaten 424 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:25,559 my business by including some you know 425 00:21:23,159 --> 00:21:27,480 North Korean moneyer or something like 426 00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:30,039 that so I would say okay screw them I I 427 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,679 will not earn this little fee and I will 428 00:21:30,039 --> 00:21:35,880 just not mind the 429 00:21:31,679 --> 00:21:37,720 transaction um so some of the pools uh 430 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,799 that were not including these sanction 431 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:44,120 transactions we doing it because of this 432 00:21:39,799 --> 00:21:46,520 okay I I I'm running a business uh I'm 433 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:51,679 um I need to mine the blog reward and 434 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:57,039 the fees and uh and um 435 00:21:51,679 --> 00:22:00,039 uh uh and I pay for electricity so you 436 00:21:57,039 --> 00:22:00,039 know 437 00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:09,279 why make 20 bucks by including business 438 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,159 let someone else mine it so so this is 439 00:22:09,279 --> 00:22:14,159 kind of the situation right now it's not 440 00:22:11,159 --> 00:22:17,679 a problem because um some other minor 441 00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:21,279 whatever in Russia in China or wherever 442 00:22:17,679 --> 00:22:23,919 else in Europe in Paraguay uh will mind 443 00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:28,480 this transaction so right now it's not a 444 00:22:23,919 --> 00:22:31,000 problem what will be a problem is if if 445 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,960 uh the state comes to the miner and says 446 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,799 not only you can't mine a block with 447 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,480 these transactions but if someone else 448 00:22:35,799 --> 00:22:40,360 does you have to treat it as invalid 449 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,240 block you know it's not a valid 450 00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:45,440 transaction and if you continue with 451 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:47,480 this chain uh you have a problem you 452 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:52,559 know jail or 453 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:55,799 fine um uh then the question is uh okay 454 00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:59,240 uh so what's the hash rate of people 455 00:22:55,799 --> 00:23:02,960 that uh that have this rule forced upon 456 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:05,240 them you know it doesn't have to be uh 457 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,720 you know evil minor or something like 458 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:11,200 that you know probably you if you were 459 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:17,440 mining you you invested in A6 and a Data 460 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:20,320 Center and if some some whatever SEC FBI 461 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:23,720 of or whatever kind of Agents you have 462 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:27,000 comes with a gun and says okay do your 463 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:29,080 thing but except of this transaction and 464 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,240 except of blocks that contain these 465 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:34,600 transactions you will probably comply I 466 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:38,520 I I know that I would definitely uh I'm 467 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:41,200 not uh in the mood for going to jail for 468 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:46,400 for including some transaction 469 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:50,240 so so this is the reason why actually uh 470 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:54,200 people have been working on stratum 2 uh 471 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:57,559 uh in order to say I didn't mind this 472 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:59,880 you know we only coordinate payouts for 473 00:23:57,559 --> 00:23:59,880 the 474 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,400 I mean for the mining pool you know so 475 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,640 the mining pool can say okay we didn't 476 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:10,279 mind the transaction The Miner actually 477 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,720 does the mining and creates the blocks 478 00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:15,720 we only distribute rewards that's our 479 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,880 business we don't do anything else so we 480 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:21,279 have no control of what kind of 481 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:24,279 transactions the the miners include so 482 00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:27,520 that's kind of the high level overview 483 00:24:24,279 --> 00:24:30,360 okay okay maybe more than high level oh 484 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:33,760 that was fantastic so how do you see 485 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:36,120 things now compared to when you first 486 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:40,120 started uh talking about the the 487 00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:42,039 direction things may go um is so is 488 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:45,679 stratum there as a solution and we don't 489 00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:48,799 have to worry about it or is there a 490 00:24:45,679 --> 00:24:51,640 scenario where we potentially do start 491 00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:53,120 to see censorship on the mining Network 492 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,120 because of these things playing out 493 00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:57,240 where governments come down they mandate 494 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:58,919 they M mandate ofac compliant 495 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,960 transactions 496 00:24:58,919 --> 00:25:04,200 uh and they mandate that miners can't 497 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:07,720 mine on top of uh transactions that 498 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:10,880 aren't ofac compliant or it's not a it's 499 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:13,240 not a problem um stratum or something 500 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:16,480 else will solve 501 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:19,799 it uh I hope Straton will solve it now 502 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:23,679 it's used by only some first pools so 503 00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:25,679 it's very very early on so uh the the 504 00:25:23,679 --> 00:25:28,559 answer we don't have to worry about it 505 00:25:25,679 --> 00:25:32,880 will become when um majority of hash 506 00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:34,039 rate switches to to this kind of um uh 507 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:39,320 this kind of 508 00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:42,600 protocol um also if it is just us who uh 509 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,799 mandates this I don't think us has 510 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,200 majority of hash rate right now so I 511 00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:49,679 wouldn't worry about it uh it's 512 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:52,320 basically uh miners would probably move 513 00:25:49,679 --> 00:25:55,640 somewhere else because if with this rule 514 00:25:52,320 --> 00:26:00,360 they will uh they will not be 515 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:04,120 profitable uh but uh the problem is not 516 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:08,080 local uh local rule by local I mean 517 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:11,240 Federal us wise uh but the problem is if 518 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:14,120 this is enforced by uh by an 519 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:17,520 organization such as the the financial 520 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:20,600 action task force which makes Global 521 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,799 anti-money laundering rules I don't know 522 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:27,760 how well they can enforce 523 00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:29,960 this uh but this is possible uh I think 524 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,840 usually where those rules derive from 525 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,960 right it usually starts with with them 526 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,000 and then countries start adopting from 527 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,200 there 528 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:41,559 right depends on the rule but that's one 529 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:44,080 of the that's one of the ways that these 530 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:47,279 rules are introduced sometimes it's us 531 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:49,960 or Europe introducing it and then uh 532 00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:53,159 Financial action task force adopting it 533 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:56,559 sometimes it's the other way around uh 534 00:26:53,159 --> 00:26:59,679 for example the the latest uh European 535 00:26:56,559 --> 00:27:05,200 anti-money laundering in 536 00:26:59,679 --> 00:27:07,880 directive uh is based on um on these 537 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,000 fat recommendations they call it 538 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,320 recommendations because you know it's 539 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:15,200 it's not a regulation it's just a 540 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:19,159 recommendation um so they were enforced 541 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:21,039 even before this uh uh this rule U was 542 00:27:19,159 --> 00:27:24,200 adopted by European 543 00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:27,559 Parliament uh and the the way uh that 544 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:31,840 these rules can be enforced because um 545 00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:37,120 fincial action task force is a nonprofit 546 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:39,480 U uh they sit in in offices of um oecd 547 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:42,120 in Paris you know and it's I don't know 548 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,440 15 people or 30 people I don't know how 549 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:46,760 how many and they have no you know no 550 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,000 one voted for them they're just there 551 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,760 and they're writing their papers 552 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:55,000 so why do they matter you know why why 553 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:57,960 should I comply uh with what they write 554 00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:02,159 in in in their PDFs and publish on the 555 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:04,679 website um and the thing is that uh it's 556 00:28:02,159 --> 00:28:08,480 enforced uh through Network effects of 557 00:28:04,679 --> 00:28:14,039 the payment networks uh so this uh this 558 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:18,880 strategy was actually uh I think used um 559 00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:21,519 in in context of Finance um uh and tax 560 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:26,080 enforcement I would say by the US with 561 00:28:21,519 --> 00:28:28,080 the uh with the fatka uh law uh which 562 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:31,519 was made in the same way 563 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:34,000 uh I don't know if you if the the um 564 00:28:31,519 --> 00:28:39,679 viewers and listeners are familiar with 565 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:42,440 um with fatka um it's a US law that uh 566 00:28:39,679 --> 00:28:45,320 is uh for tax compliance and for 567 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:49,200 reporting of us tax residents and 568 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:52,720 citizens or us persons as they call it 569 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:55,320 they always make up this weird words 570 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:59,399 that you know but I I know I'm 571 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,399 definitely not a US person that 572 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,440 I still have to fill the form though so 573 00:29:01,679 --> 00:29:06,720 that pisses me off a little bit anyway 574 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:10,760 um so the way that it's enforced is they 575 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:12,760 say um dear foreign Banks you have two 576 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,240 options you either 577 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:18,039 comply or you don't have to comply you 578 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:21,039 know we have no leg legislative power 579 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:23,960 over you but if you don't comply if you 580 00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:26,840 touch the US Financial system we will 581 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:29,080 just tax it 30% by default so it's your 582 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:33,039 choice you're free to 583 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:34,919 choose uh but let us know if you if you 584 00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:37,399 are complying and if you're not 585 00:29:34,919 --> 00:29:40,720 complying we will just text you uh if 586 00:29:37,399 --> 00:29:44,120 you whatever if a customer buys a US 587 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:48,440 Treasury or US Stock or anything we will 588 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:51,039 just by default uh uh uh take 30% give 589 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,240 it to the IRS and then you can stay non 590 00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:56,799 compliant so everyone compli there is 591 00:29:53,240 --> 00:30:00,159 not a single entity in the banking 592 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:04,279 system right now who didn't comply uh 593 00:30:00,159 --> 00:30:07,039 with the uh with the fatka regulation so 594 00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:09,399 uh so it's the same with this financial 595 00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:13,279 action task force uh these are 596 00:30:09,399 --> 00:30:14,480 recommendations uh but uh if you want 597 00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:16,600 let's say you have a financial 598 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,559 institution you are whatever electronic 599 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,000 money transmitter such as venmo or you 600 00:30:19,559 --> 00:30:26,279 you uh want to join the payment Network 601 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:28,559 sepa payment Network a wires or whatever 602 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:30,519 kind of payment Network work you will 603 00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:33,720 probably connect to another financial 604 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:36,720 institution and their first question is 605 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:39,519 okay what is your AML policy what kind 606 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:42,679 of recommendations do you follow oh you 607 00:30:39,519 --> 00:30:44,640 don't follow the industry standard 608 00:30:42,679 --> 00:30:46,440 Financial action task for regulations 609 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,679 sorry we cannot connect you to the rest 610 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:53,799 of the banking system 611 00:30:48,679 --> 00:30:57,320 goodbye um so the question why I'm why 612 00:30:53,799 --> 00:31:01,440 why this super long tangent uh the 613 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:05,320 question is how connected uh do the 614 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:08,279 miners have to be to the financial 615 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:11,600 system so if I'm a 616 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:13,039 minor I probably need a bank account uh 617 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,320 to pay for 618 00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:19,639 electricity if I come to a bank and I 619 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:22,720 say hello I'm a company uh they ask me 620 00:31:19,639 --> 00:31:25,279 first okay so what do you do uh so I 621 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,279 will have to say that I'm a minor 622 00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:28,360 because they will see transactions from 623 00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:31,799 changes 624 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:34,760 probably uh and of course you're not 625 00:31:31,799 --> 00:31:36,559 supposed to lie and defraud the banker 626 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,880 you should always answer 627 00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:41,559 truthfully um by the way this is kind of 628 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,760 weird because when I was starting my 629 00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:46,159 first business no one asked me what I do 630 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:49,720 you know they were they are my service 631 00:31:46,159 --> 00:31:51,720 provider and they I'm paying them to 632 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,799 send and receive money and store money 633 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,320 for me what is their business what what 634 00:31:53,799 --> 00:32:00,480 I do that's there was no opportunity for 635 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:02,399 you to lie just yes yes hello ah you you 636 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,720 started a new company here you go here's 637 00:32:02,399 --> 00:32:08,919 a bank account now they ask a bunch of 638 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:11,760 questions which is kind of weird I think 639 00:32:08,919 --> 00:32:13,919 anyway so they ask you this and uh and 640 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,880 when you say okay I'm a minor they say 641 00:32:13,919 --> 00:32:19,840 ah okay so do you comply with this uh uh 642 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,600 anti-money laundering what what kind of 643 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:25,480 transactions do you mine have you do you 644 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:28,840 have a policy that you uh that you are 645 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:31,360 not mining this uh bad transactions do 646 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:34,200 you have a policy that you don't follow 647 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:36,240 um follow the bad chain with with the 648 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,519 money laundering and and all these 649 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,279 things so this can this can definitely 650 00:32:38,519 --> 00:32:44,880 happen uh in my original article it was 651 00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:47,919 not actually about sanction transactions 652 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:52,600 that much um my first question was this 653 00:32:47,919 --> 00:32:55,080 all this ESG craze of uh uh 654 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:58,080 environmental social and governance 655 00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:00,840 things that is I don't know about us but 656 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:04,159 in um in Europe it's getting kind of 657 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:08,639 crazy so uh so what I can ask you is 658 00:33:04,159 --> 00:33:11,880 okay uh can you um uh can you prove that 659 00:33:08,639 --> 00:33:14,399 uh that you use whatever sustainable 660 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,159 green energy oh okay so you're a minor 661 00:33:14,399 --> 00:33:20,200 you're not using green energy goodbye we 662 00:33:17,159 --> 00:33:23,639 cannot open a bank account for you so 663 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:27,480 this is a way how this can be enforced 664 00:33:23,639 --> 00:33:28,880 without a single law passed so that's 665 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,480 that's interesting you know because we 666 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:34,480 are often thinking in these terms okay 667 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,840 so politicians you know they they 668 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,799 introduce these bills they vote for them 669 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,080 the president signs them and all these 670 00:33:38,799 --> 00:33:45,960 you know Democratic 671 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:49,240 dance but uh but the rules uh in finance 672 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:51,519 are actually a bit faster than that 673 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,919 sometimes so it's really really would 674 00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:56,720 just be the banking industry 675 00:33:53,919 --> 00:33:59,760 self-regulating right like like you said 676 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:03,039 um yes Financial action task force 677 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:05,320 coming up with these rules or some other 678 00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:07,840 organization uh and then the 679 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,359 banks adopting them and then if you want 680 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:14,440 to work with the banks in any way you're 681 00:34:10,359 --> 00:34:17,839 forced to to comply yes and as as you're 682 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:22,399 pointing out Mo as much as we the goal 683 00:34:17,839 --> 00:34:25,119 is to opt out uh practically speaking if 684 00:34:22,399 --> 00:34:28,119 you're running a large mining Network 685 00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:30,960 you have to usually interface 686 00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:32,599 with the traditional system in some way 687 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,200 right whether it's paying your electric 688 00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:38,320 bill whatever it is you're running a 689 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:40,520 business um right so it's it's very hard 690 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,679 to avoid that interface with the 691 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,440 traditional system and that's well 692 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:46,720 that's why that's why I like Monero 693 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:49,040 because the the point of Monero is you 694 00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:53,079 know everyone should be running their 695 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:55,879 own minor and uh right then you know 696 00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:59,160 like if you are U if you have a 697 00:34:55,879 --> 00:35:02,359 residential you know property uh you're 698 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:05,280 just paying electricity and uh and the 699 00:35:02,359 --> 00:35:08,920 worst thing that can happen to you is 700 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:11,040 you use uh more energy than usual and 701 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,560 they come and check if you're growing 702 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:18,040 wheat which is what is happening quite a 703 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:19,200 lot uh but uh for example they care more 704 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,839 about whether or not you're running a 705 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,520 minor than what than whether you're 706 00:35:20,839 --> 00:35:24,480 growing weed I think it's it's become a 707 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:28,119 larger potentially a larger 708 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:32,359 CME yeah yeah I for example I produce my 709 00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:34,960 own energy or part of it uh I I have 710 00:35:32,359 --> 00:35:37,000 recently installed a photovoltaic system 711 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:40,880 and it's and it's great so even even 712 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:46,200 this is you know with with uh uh with 713 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:50,520 Monero it's more um the idea is okay if 714 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:53,160 it's peer-to-peer cash uh maybe you know 715 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:56,280 Piers should be should be mining so at 716 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,960 at least uh in theory uh I think in 717 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,960 practice a lot of mining is done by some 718 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:04,880 bot Nets or something and I I'm not very 719 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,079 familiar but I think it's uh also what 720 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:10,160 is happening in 721 00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:12,839 Monero um but uh this this ship has 722 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:17,400 sailed in Bitcoin there there is no way 723 00:36:12,839 --> 00:36:19,480 you can be a profitable minor uh at home 724 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,960 uh at scale you know you need expensive 725 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:26,119 Hardware that takes like uh I don't know 726 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:29,160 kilowatts of electricity and it's not 727 00:36:26,119 --> 00:36:31,839 something can do in your camper van 728 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,560 or well the the other issue too so you 729 00:36:31,839 --> 00:36:37,079 have the the the tendency towards Asic 730 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:41,040 mining right um and that like you said 731 00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:42,119 ship a sale there it's that's forever 732 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,400 that's the way it's going to be if 733 00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:45,640 anything I don't I don't know how you 734 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,440 how bad you see it getting in terms of 735 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,880 centralization of 736 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,319 miners um but the other issue is just 737 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:55,040 the transparency of the chain so they H 738 00:36:52,319 --> 00:36:57,240 you you have this ability to censor 739 00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:00,319 transactions because you can 740 00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:03,880 peer into them and see the transactions 741 00:37:00,319 --> 00:37:06,839 themselves um which I don't foresee 742 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:11,200 Bitcoin ever overcoming that issue as 743 00:37:06,839 --> 00:37:15,200 well right me neither um uh what a 744 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:19,640 bitcoiner would say to this is that uh 745 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:23,160 uh for example uh if uh someone says 746 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,839 that uh uh Monero is basically doing 747 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:28,560 coin join on every 748 00:37:24,839 --> 00:37:31,200 transaction uh or kind of privacy way 749 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:34,280 they can say okay then then if you 750 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:37,720 cannot exclude sanction transactions 751 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:41,040 then mining Monero itself is il illegal 752 00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:43,200 so so it turns it the the fungibility 753 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,800 basically turns it into either you can 754 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,400 mine it or you cannot mine it you know 755 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:52,560 you cannot differentiate among 756 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:55,599 transactions because they um not exactly 757 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:58,520 but they mostly look the same so mono is 758 00:37:55,599 --> 00:38:00,680 fible um but it doesn't mean they cannot 759 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:04,920 say okay 760 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:08,480 uh you have to enforce you know yes it's 761 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,839 the same way so so for example um it's 762 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,920 the same with exchanges so many 763 00:38:10,839 --> 00:38:16,319 exchanges uh would refuse uh you know 764 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,880 coin joint transactions for example on 765 00:38:16,319 --> 00:38:21,760 bitcoin um and Monaro people said oh we 766 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,520 don't have this problem uh but yes you 767 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:27,000 do have this problem because they will 768 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:30,200 just delist Monero on the exchang not 769 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:32,440 supported at all so so that that's their 770 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,440 solution for the for the coin coin join 771 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,800 so that's that's what happened I think I 772 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:42,040 I was telling the story 773 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:46,400 um uh uh last time I was on here um that 774 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:50,119 uh my friends were running U an ATM 775 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:52,880 network Bitcoin and Monero ATM network 776 00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:55,680 and at some some point The Exchange 777 00:38:52,880 --> 00:39:00,040 which supports Monero by itself it has 778 00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:01,960 Monero Euro mono USD pair said oh you're 779 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,680 running uh an 780 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:07,599 ATM uh you don't know who your customers 781 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:10,880 are because you allow Anonymous deposits 782 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:14,319 and withdrawals all good but you need to 783 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:16,720 delist Mono we will not uh support you 784 00:39:14,319 --> 00:39:18,760 as a company using this pair even though 785 00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:22,240 we allow it on the on the exchange you 786 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:24,480 know uh because you cannot show that the 787 00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:27,040 transactions are not Co joined that you 788 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:31,760 know it's not used for money wering and 789 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:33,920 so on um because of this uh sorry uh you 790 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,280 can be our customers as long as you 791 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,640 don't support Monero so this is what 792 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:42,920 what happened so it's the same that can 793 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:45,880 happen for mining on the other hand it's 794 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:48,920 um if it's not banned it's a very nice 795 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:51,920 plausible deniability know because now 796 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:55,240 you're kind of um 797 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:57,359 um well you if you are running a 798 00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:58,560 business you are supposed to follow 799 00:39:57,359 --> 00:40:02,119 these sanctions you know you are 800 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:05,960 supposed to check if you're not um not 801 00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:09,359 helping these sanctions person to use 802 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:11,520 their money um and with Monero you just 803 00:40:09,359 --> 00:40:14,000 have one last problem because there's no 804 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,400 way to tell so you know you did all you 805 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,960 could to tell if you're not helping 806 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:22,680 sanctioned persons you looked at the 807 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:26,079 transactions all look the same so uh no 808 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:28,160 problem so so yes it is easier as long 809 00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:31,720 as Is Not Bent 810 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:33,839 completely that's that's kind easy 811 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:36,079 decision and we don't know how that 812 00:40:33,839 --> 00:40:39,319 would play out either right I mean at 813 00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:42,240 that point I I I personally think here 814 00:40:39,319 --> 00:40:43,880 in the us if we were to move in that 815 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:46,119 direction there would at least be some 816 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,960 kind of Supreme Court case or or 817 00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:52,040 something that would have to happen uh 818 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:54,880 for for us to get to the point where 819 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:57,359 Monero is actually banned by the United 820 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,720 States government and then I think you 821 00:40:57,359 --> 00:41:01,640 start to go into the territory of you 822 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:04,240 know you're it's equivalent to Banning 823 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:09,800 the use of just encryption tools overall 824 00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:12,960 right um so for example this happened in 825 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:16,880 um I'm not sure if only Dubai or whole 826 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:20,440 United Arab Emirates they ban uh privacy 827 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:23,119 coins yes what is interesting they 828 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,839 explicitly allowed 829 00:41:23,119 --> 00:41:28,079 Litecoin so it's it's written that 830 00:41:25,839 --> 00:41:30,040 Litecoin is allowed which has the mimble 831 00:41:28,079 --> 00:41:33,079 wimble extension blocks which are pretty 832 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:35,599 private as well I didn't real okay it's 833 00:41:33,079 --> 00:41:38,160 kind of weird I don't know how that 834 00:41:35,599 --> 00:41:40,560 turns out but somebody there somebody 835 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:43,720 over there owns a lot of Litecoin 836 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:45,760 perhaps yeah or or maybe they wrote the 837 00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:48,079 law before before the mimble wimble 838 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:51,040 extension block I don't know uh but 839 00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:53,960 there are definitely countries that that 840 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:58,119 went this uh went on this path of 841 00:41:53,960 --> 00:42:02,520 banning private um transaction I still 842 00:41:58,119 --> 00:42:06,280 hope that us uh will not go this way and 843 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:10,880 will uh will keep parts of Freedom not 844 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:13,280 sure about Europe anymore uh but um well 845 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:16,280 um I'm very hopeful for the for the 846 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:19,839 courts in the in the US not so hopeful 847 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:21,920 when I read uh this uh lady that you 848 00:42:19,839 --> 00:42:24,559 have there Senator 849 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:28,960 Warren oh my 850 00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:33,520 god did see did you see that she's uh 851 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:35,599 she's uh she has an un hosted wallet in 852 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:39,359 her 853 00:42:35,599 --> 00:42:41,960 brain she wants to B ban our our our our 854 00:42:39,359 --> 00:42:45,000 thinking in our brains right ban our 855 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:48,040 memories oh I I I've read that some 856 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:51,079 someone took some words that she said uh 857 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:54,280 and created a wallet out of the words 858 00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:58,599 and sent some uh some money there some 859 00:42:54,280 --> 00:43:01,760 Bitcoin there so now she's so she is she 860 00:42:58,599 --> 00:43:05,000 operates an unhost wallet in her own 861 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:08,400 brain which she wants to ban so quite a 862 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:11,319 nice nice 863 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,559 joke yeah I don't see her I haven't been 864 00:43:11,319 --> 00:43:15,839 following that super closely either but 865 00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:18,160 I don't see that I know I know she 866 00:43:15,839 --> 00:43:19,920 gained some traction with that there's 867 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,520 she has some people like you know 868 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,880 whatever co-signing the bill that have 869 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:27,359 come behind her um but I don't see that 870 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,720 passing the the way it is I mean I would 871 00:43:27,359 --> 00:43:34,559 be what that shock right she basically 872 00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:37,480 wants to extend the bank secrecy act to 873 00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:40,359 include cryptocurrency where all 874 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:43,839 transactions have to be you know 875 00:43:40,359 --> 00:43:47,520 everybody using Bitcoin have to be kyc 876 00:43:43,839 --> 00:43:49,400 AML and and you know no miners are are 877 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:53,000 considered money transmitters at that 878 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:55,880 point nodes anybody running a node um 879 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,880 and anybody making a Bitcoin transaction 880 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,359 is 881 00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,200 of making you know a banking transaction 882 00:43:59,359 --> 00:44:03,079 at that 883 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:05,400 point I don't see it passing either 884 00:44:03,079 --> 00:44:09,760 although I'm not as you know I don't 885 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:12,440 follow it in such a detail in the US uh 886 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,520 but the problem is that uh it's kind of 887 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,760 normalizing the conversation you know 888 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,480 it's uh it's like oh we should be 889 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,960 talking about this this is really a 890 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:25,440 problems and you know some people even 891 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:27,359 introduced the bill um and uh okay if he 892 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,559 doesn't p we should at least be talking 893 00:44:27,359 --> 00:44:31,680 about it and you know it it kind of 894 00:44:29,559 --> 00:44:34,680 changes the conversation so I I think 895 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:39,160 this is the main problem of uh of these 896 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:39,920 bills is that they basically normalize 897 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,119 this 898 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:47,119 conversation of uh it's okay for 899 00:44:43,119 --> 00:44:51,599 governments to force identify you and 900 00:44:47,119 --> 00:44:53,720 look at your every move uh so I don't 901 00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:54,960 like it even though I'm pretty sure it 902 00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:57,960 will not 903 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,960 pass 904 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:07,119 do you love coffee and Monera as much as 905 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,119 we do consider making gratuitous 906 00:45:10,119 --> 00:45:15,160 toorgle digital cash tip directly to the 907 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:17,520 farmers that made it 908 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:20,880 possible proceeds help us grow this 909 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:24,019 channel gratuitous and 910 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,019 [Music] 911 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,880 Monero 912 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:33,680 so kind of um you know give us your 913 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:37,319 overall conclusion then on this topic of 914 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:38,920 essentially censorship in the Bitcoin 915 00:45:37,319 --> 00:45:41,520 mining 916 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:44,400 network is it a problem or is it going 917 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:48,599 to get worse uh ultimately does it does 918 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:51,119 it not matter um and you know if we do 919 00:45:48,599 --> 00:45:54,880 if we do see it 920 00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:57,800 becoming um a part of all Bitcoin 921 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,920 transactions what does Bitcoin then 922 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,880 become what what is bitcoin like I don't 923 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:04,040 I don't see Bitcoin going away anytime 924 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,640 soon right uh like we said the you know 925 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:09,680 the the ETF is about to happen it seems 926 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:12,760 like if anything it's it's gaining more 927 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:15,520 adoption but through that process it 928 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:18,480 also seems to be becoming 929 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:21,599 co-opted um do you agree with that 930 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:24,720 overall kind of analysis that that 931 00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:27,160 Bitcoin is is becoming more adopted but 932 00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:33,079 also more defense anged in terms of it 933 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:33,079 its purpose of being uh you know 934 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:39,000 Unstoppable yes you're completely right 935 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:42,319 I don't know what will prevail uh the 936 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:44,440 freedom properties of Bitcoin uh getting 937 00:46:42,319 --> 00:46:47,079 into hands of more and more people 938 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,559 that's the adoption on one hand which is 939 00:46:47,079 --> 00:46:53,280 great you know if it's free enough and 940 00:46:49,559 --> 00:46:58,720 it's spreads enough then it will overall 941 00:46:53,280 --> 00:47:00,079 in overall or be uh be a good for uh be 942 00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:03,559 be good for 943 00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:07,359 Liberty um on the other hand it's going 944 00:47:03,559 --> 00:47:09,440 to be also used by a lot of normies and 945 00:47:07,359 --> 00:47:12,319 it's going to be a little bit boring 946 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:15,839 less cypherpunk you know people will say 947 00:47:12,319 --> 00:47:18,119 oh what is this you know Hardware wallet 948 00:47:15,839 --> 00:47:21,400 and addresses I don't understand I will 949 00:47:18,119 --> 00:47:26,800 just log to my broker and I I will just 950 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:29,280 buy the ETF I don't care uh so um so in 951 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:32,000 this case by the way I like that at 952 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:36,040 least it's not proof of stake because uh 953 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:38,960 in this case uh black rock or the or the 954 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:40,400 other ETF operators would have pretty 955 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,839 large stake because they will be 956 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:46,839 managing coins so for ethereum this this 957 00:47:43,839 --> 00:47:51,559 the ETF is going to be much bigger 958 00:47:46,839 --> 00:47:55,160 problem I think uh but um uh yeah I I 959 00:47:51,559 --> 00:47:57,440 don't know um what will happen we we see 960 00:47:55,160 --> 00:48:00,440 this kind of normalization of it 961 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:02,359 becoming just another asset uh I don't 962 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:07,200 know if it's good or bad you know I like 963 00:48:02,359 --> 00:48:10,520 to be more on the punk side and you know 964 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:14,280 um I I like you know playing with these 965 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:17,160 Technologies I I used pgp you know 966 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:19,839 bothering my friends to you know cut and 967 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:22,440 paste these strings of encrypted 968 00:48:19,839 --> 00:48:25,000 messages into email and stuff like that 969 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:28,119 and and I like that you know so for me 970 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:31,160 Bitcoin is something else than for a 971 00:48:28,119 --> 00:48:33,720 grandma that wants to just you know have 972 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:37,040 1% of their retirement Savings in 973 00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:39,720 something else than us treasuries or or 974 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,800 whatever else so um I don't know what 975 00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:44,559 will be the the result as for the 976 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:47,280 censorship itself I wouldn't Panic right 977 00:48:44,559 --> 00:48:49,760 now I think there's a pretty good game 978 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:52,559 plan that we see is actually being 979 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:56,200 followed by bitcoiners which is the 980 00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:58,240 stratum two I think even the fact that 981 00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:01,079 everyone is discussing it that there are 982 00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:03,880 there are websites uh and and people who 983 00:49:01,079 --> 00:49:05,559 are analyzing uh the me pool and the 984 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,640 transaction that should have been mined 985 00:49:05,559 --> 00:49:09,720 and they were raising red flags you know 986 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,839 oh there's a transaction that should 987 00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:14,559 have been mined according to the fees 988 00:49:11,839 --> 00:49:15,599 and rules and they were left out for 989 00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:18,079 some 990 00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:20,799 reason people are watching this closely 991 00:49:18,079 --> 00:49:23,640 so it's not people are not lethargic and 992 00:49:20,799 --> 00:49:26,599 you know just watching the price uh 993 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:29,599 something is happening and they are uh 994 00:49:26,599 --> 00:49:32,119 uh so so I like that we have discussion 995 00:49:29,599 --> 00:49:36,119 I like that we have technological 996 00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:39,520 solutions uh and I hope that uh they 997 00:49:36,119 --> 00:49:42,599 will be def deployed fast enough uh in 998 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:45,680 order for this not to be a problem I 999 00:49:42,599 --> 00:49:48,000 don't think future is certain but I'm 1000 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:51,359 optimistic in this case for for the 1001 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:53,599 future of mining at least I think the 1002 00:49:51,359 --> 00:49:57,720 bigger problem is 1003 00:49:53,599 --> 00:49:59,839 the uh the you the usability of uh these 1004 00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:02,640 non-fungible coins you know what can you 1005 00:49:59,839 --> 00:50:05,319 send to The Exchange what you know uh if 1006 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:10,119 I receive Bitcoin as a payment do I have 1007 00:50:05,319 --> 00:50:13,799 to do deep analysis uh uh to see if it's 1008 00:50:10,119 --> 00:50:16,680 not whatever coming from Heck from North 1009 00:50:13,799 --> 00:50:20,520 Korea or something or can I just receive 1010 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:24,520 it you know so so this is a much bigger 1011 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:26,680 problem and uh the only useful solution 1012 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:30,599 to this uh is lightning because it 1013 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:34,440 doesn't have history uh but um but this 1014 00:50:30,599 --> 00:50:37,079 is something that I think um will become 1015 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:39,839 a little bit bigger problem than than 1016 00:50:37,079 --> 00:50:41,960 mining itself yeah that's that's the 1017 00:50:39,839 --> 00:50:45,839 next topic I want to get into good good 1018 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:48,160 segue so what's your your take on the 1019 00:50:45,839 --> 00:50:49,880 lightning Network and and just what 1020 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:53,359 we're seeing with Bitcoin in terms of 1021 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:56,440 its its fees right so that was always 1022 00:50:53,359 --> 00:50:58,359 part of the plan um well not always 1023 00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,359 always but at some point became part of 1024 00:50:58,359 --> 00:51:03,880 the plan with the fixed with the fixed 1025 00:51:00,359 --> 00:51:06,119 block size that for for Bitcoin to work 1026 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:08,160 for there to be incentives for the 1027 00:51:06,119 --> 00:51:11,160 miners to continue to mine right for 1028 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:13,359 there to be enough hash power um value 1029 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,400 would need to come from somewhere uh and 1030 00:51:13,359 --> 00:51:16,880 if you could only fit so many 1031 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,640 transactions in a block then that value 1032 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,440 is going to come from higher and higher 1033 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,880 transaction fees right and we're 1034 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,920 starting to see that and now we're 1035 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:27,000 starting to see it kind of on an 1036 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,839 exponential level because the the the 1037 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,200 blockchain is being used for things 1038 00:51:28,839 --> 00:51:33,480 other than just 1039 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:37,599 transactions how do you see this playing 1040 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:39,359 out is this is this bad for Bitcoin or 1041 00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:42,119 does this mean Bitcoin just kind of 1042 00:51:39,359 --> 00:51:44,920 becomes something 1043 00:51:42,119 --> 00:51:48,240 else I'm glad that it's happening now 1044 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:50,440 and not when there's 10x more people uh 1045 00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:53,680 because that that would be bad they they 1046 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:56,000 would be pissed so we have a actually 1047 00:51:53,680 --> 00:52:01,920 like a real time 1048 00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:05,119 um uh way to to fix this um so first uh 1049 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:07,359 I would uh like to appreciate the way 1050 00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:11,160 that Monero is solving this problem I 1051 00:52:07,359 --> 00:52:14,119 think uh that is not uh appreciated a 1052 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:16,640 lot but Monero has Dynamic block size 1053 00:52:14,119 --> 00:52:19,920 and tail emission and both of these in 1054 00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:22,400 in combination should keep the fees low 1055 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:25,760 and uh and pay for the for the security 1056 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:29,720 budget for the for the mining uh so this 1057 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:32,200 solution will not happen uh on bitcoin 1058 00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:35,119 even though there are bitcoiners who uh 1059 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:37,599 who think at least ta emission is a good 1060 00:52:35,119 --> 00:52:39,880 idea I think Peter Tod had a talk at 1061 00:52:37,599 --> 00:52:41,920 moner atopia about this if I'm not 1062 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:47,079 mistaken yes 1063 00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:50,280 um but uh uh but I'm glad that there is 1064 00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:52,799 another system that uh that looks at it 1065 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:55,400 differently because experimentation is 1066 00:52:52,799 --> 00:52:58,079 good and I I think this is uh probably 1067 00:52:55,400 --> 00:53:02,119 good solution so the tail emission what 1068 00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:05,640 what it does so tail emission means that 1069 00:53:02,119 --> 00:53:08,720 uh there will always be a block reward 1070 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:10,599 of new coins so there will always be 1071 00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:13,520 some tiny 1072 00:53:10,599 --> 00:53:18,240 inflation uh it will as a as a 1073 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:20,400 percentage of the of the amount of um 1074 00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:22,359 the the units in circulation it will go 1075 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:25,920 down because it will be fixed at some 1076 00:53:22,359 --> 00:53:28,920 point so percentage 1077 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:33,599 the uh the emission will be lower and 1078 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:36,480 lower uh but what this means is that uh 1079 00:53:33,599 --> 00:53:38,599 for security uh it's not only the people 1080 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:41,200 who make transactions that pay for 1081 00:53:38,599 --> 00:53:44,640 security but also people who who just 1082 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:48,440 hold because the the new units kind of 1083 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:52,000 devalue their their Holdings kind ofx on 1084 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:54,000 the on the holders right yes yes so 1085 00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,839 which is happening right now on bitcoin 1086 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:59,760 as well because Bitcoin also has 1087 00:53:55,839 --> 00:54:03,680 emission right now so so right now um 1088 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:08,880 even in this High fee environment uh the 1089 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:12,960 the blog reward uh from the newly minted 1090 00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:16,119 coins is uh still at least the same 1091 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:20,200 maybe a little bit higher um uh at least 1092 00:54:16,119 --> 00:54:24,599 until next haling uh so this is way how 1093 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:27,440 Bitcoin finances uh mining as well so uh 1094 00:54:24,599 --> 00:54:31,480 but this end in 1095 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:35,119 uh 2140 or I don't know when exactly I 1096 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:37,520 think some something like that so um so 1097 00:54:35,119 --> 00:54:39,720 monos solution is kind of uh kind of 1098 00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:45,040 nice I think 1099 00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:47,920 um so what are Bitcoin is super 1100 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:49,760 conservative so if you say uh tail 1101 00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:54,079 emission doesn't matter if you are Peter 1102 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:57,599 tot who has high respect in in Bitcoin 1103 00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:59,920 or is has very good reputation among 1104 00:54:57,599 --> 00:55:02,640 bitcoiners it doesn't matter if he says 1105 00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:04,920 it or someone else you know if you say 1106 00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:07,440 oh there will be more than 21 million 1107 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:10,839 Bitcoin you will get laughed out of the 1108 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:13,280 room and explode yeah yeah yeah yes and 1109 00:55:10,839 --> 00:55:17,880 called the [ __ ] coiner of course and and 1110 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:20,079 all these things so uh first of all this 1111 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:23,400 is not a solution like Bitcoin will 1112 00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:26,480 never never pass any anything like this 1113 00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:29,000 uh we have seen uh the attempt to 1114 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:31,280 increase the block size uh I would not 1115 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:34,839 be against increasing the block size by 1116 00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:38,160 the way I think uh at least temporarily 1117 00:55:34,839 --> 00:55:42,319 it's uh it's quite a nice solution and 1118 00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:46,799 uh Bitcoin can sustain um bigger blocks 1119 00:55:42,319 --> 00:55:49,280 uh you know the you need quite a quite a 1120 00:55:46,799 --> 00:55:53,319 powerful Hardware to run a note anyway 1121 00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:57,640 these days so I don't see this uh as a 1122 00:55:53,319 --> 00:55:59,599 problem uh but uh also you will be 1123 00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:02,760 laughed out of the room if you suggest 1124 00:55:59,599 --> 00:56:04,920 that Bitcoin should 10x the block size 1125 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:08,200 or something like that so we have to 1126 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:11,960 look at other solution other Solutions 1127 00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:16,240 one of them that I proposed a while ago 1128 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:17,240 um is using uh side chains uh for 1129 00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:19,000 smaller 1130 00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:20,520 channels uh 1131 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:25,400 so 1132 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:28,039 uh I have written a quite extensive blog 1133 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:31,680 about this I've been trying to spread it 1134 00:56:28,039 --> 00:56:33,720 and every time when when fees came up I 1135 00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:37,559 would just paste the link to the blog 1136 00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:41,000 and uh no one was paying attention uh 1137 00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:43,559 and right now actually three days uh 1138 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:46,720 people have been sending each other and 1139 00:56:43,559 --> 00:56:49,000 tweeting links to the blog quite more 1140 00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:52,760 and the developers started to pay 1141 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:55,680 attention so the thing is that uh the 1142 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:59,200 lightning Network is for passing 1143 00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:02,599 Bitcoin around but it doesn't mean it 1144 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:04,119 doesn't necessarily need onchain backing 1145 00:57:02,599 --> 00:57:08,200 for all the 1146 00:57:04,119 --> 00:57:12,520 coins uh so one of the things uh we can 1147 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:16,240 do is called a hosted channel so can say 1148 00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:20,000 okay we can have a channel among you and 1149 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:22,640 me so it's uh Channel urri and 1150 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:25,839 Duck and 1151 00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:29,240 um uh in this channel we will not back 1152 00:57:25,839 --> 00:57:33,640 it by real Bitcoin we will just create a 1153 00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:36,799 let's say a paper Ledger of uh who uh 1154 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:39,440 has what part of the channel and you can 1155 00:57:36,799 --> 00:57:43,920 use this channel even for routing 1156 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:46,760 payments so it's a it's a it's a like 1157 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:49,599 functioning channel that can be used for 1158 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:51,920 everything that uh the liing can be used 1159 00:57:49,599 --> 00:57:58,400 for so for example if if we trust each 1160 00:57:51,920 --> 00:58:01,119 other I can pay uh whatever for uh for 1161 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:03,680 tickets to monotop if it's supported 1162 00:58:01,119 --> 00:58:06,319 lightning through the channel I have 1163 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:10,079 with you without any backing without any 1164 00:58:06,319 --> 00:58:12,280 onchain backing and when I meet you you 1165 00:58:10,079 --> 00:58:14,599 will see okay our Ledger says that you 1166 00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:18,680 owe me this much and I will I will pay 1167 00:58:14,599 --> 00:58:21,000 you so this is possible uh it doesn't uh 1168 00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:25,680 affect the trust assumptions in the 1169 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:28,160 network in any way the only thing uh so 1170 00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:31,599 if we too have to trust each other it 1171 00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:35,359 doesn't matter matter that the merchant 1172 00:58:31,599 --> 00:58:37,400 uh if if uh if the merchant trusts us 1173 00:58:35,359 --> 00:58:42,160 because the channel between you and the 1174 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:45,079 merchant for example is fully backed so 1175 00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:46,079 so if I pay through you and then then I 1176 00:58:45,079 --> 00:58:49,839 you know 1177 00:58:46,079 --> 00:58:51,799 default uh and I I don't pay you back uh 1178 00:58:49,839 --> 00:58:54,799 it doesn't matter that that the merchant 1179 00:58:51,799 --> 00:58:56,880 is not paid only we are not paid so this 1180 00:58:54,799 --> 00:58:59,799 is a hosted Channel you can do it right 1181 00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:01,680 now it's one of the ways how you can do 1182 00:58:59,799 --> 00:59:05,799 custodial uh 1183 00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:09,920 lightning um and now what you can do is 1184 00:59:05,799 --> 00:59:13,240 you can say okay so we have this other 1185 00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:15,520 chain uh I propose to start using liquid 1186 00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:19,119 because it is compatible with Bitcoin 1187 00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:22,280 and it has a lightning demon and I I can 1188 00:59:19,119 --> 00:59:25,480 say okay I have just 10 bucks I want 1189 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:28,880 just to try this lightning Network thing 1190 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:33,039 uh I cannot pay 40 bucks for opening a 1191 00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:35,200 channel on chain on on bitcoin chain uh 1192 00:59:33,039 --> 00:59:38,400 but I don't want a fully custodial CH 1193 00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:41,119 Channel either so what I can do is I can 1194 00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:43,640 open this super small channel for 10 1195 00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:46,799 bucks on 1196 00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:49,799 liquid and there is a bridge which no 1197 00:59:46,799 --> 00:59:52,160 one has to trust between the liquid 1198 00:59:49,799 --> 00:59:55,799 Network and the Bitcoin part of the 1199 00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:58,640 network so now I can pay any Merchant in 1200 00:59:55,799 --> 01:00:02,799 the lightning network doesn't matter 1201 00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:05,839 what uh uh what um uh chain their 1202 01:00:02,799 --> 01:00:09,880 channels are on and I can just use it as 1203 01:00:05,839 --> 01:00:12,760 Lightning it's um it's 1204 01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:15,079 basically I I like to compare the 1205 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:19,599 lightning Network to the internet or 1206 01:00:15,079 --> 01:00:21,640 make make an analogy so for example um 1207 01:00:19,599 --> 01:00:25,079 if uh the current lightning Network 1208 01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:28,440 backed by Bitcoin is made of fiber optic 1209 01:00:25,079 --> 01:00:31,559 and I connect uh to the network through 1210 01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:34,720 a starlink satellite I use a different 1211 01:00:31,559 --> 01:00:37,640 type of connection but I only connect to 1212 01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:39,480 the next Noe and the server will still 1213 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:42,880 receive the money through the original 1214 01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:45,359 Channel Through the fiber optic cable so 1215 01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:48,119 everyone makes connections makes 1216 01:00:45,359 --> 01:00:53,280 channels the way they see fit uh you 1217 01:00:48,119 --> 01:00:56,520 know cheap or uh or secure uh you can 1218 01:00:53,280 --> 01:01:00,880 also do things like okay if the channel 1219 01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:04,319 is up to 500 bucks I will open it on 1220 01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:06,760 liquid uh when the value of the channel 1221 01:01:04,319 --> 01:01:09,680 uh becomes more than 500 bucks I will 1222 01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:12,480 just send it over to myself and open a 1223 01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:14,359 real Bitcoin channel so what is 1224 01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:19,079 interesting about this lightning network 1225 01:01:14,359 --> 01:01:22,480 is that uh it uses Bitcoin as a unit of 1226 01:01:19,079 --> 01:01:25,880 account but it doesn't have like all the 1227 01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:29,000 channels don't have to be be backed on 1228 01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:32,960 chain so this is one of the ways how you 1229 01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:36,000 can scale it um another interesting ways 1230 01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:40,160 how you can scale it is using these 1231 01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:41,880 ecash systems like cashew or fedy Min 1232 01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:45,000 which are well integrated with lightning 1233 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:48,200 Network um what is nice about them is 1234 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:50,400 they have full anonymity so very very 1235 01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:55,079 good privacy 1236 01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:59,400 um or as Phil simmerman would said 1237 01:01:55,079 --> 01:02:01,119 privacy uh so I I think what we will see 1238 01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,279 and I'm not saying you know this is the 1239 01:02:01,119 --> 01:02:06,000 best solution in the world and it cannot 1240 01:02:03,279 --> 01:02:08,839 be sold in a better way but what I think 1241 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:11,119 we'll see is we will explore these new 1242 01:02:08,839 --> 01:02:13,880 options how to expand the lightning 1243 01:02:11,119 --> 01:02:16,520 Network without necessarily needing to 1244 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:20,079 create uh transactions on chain there's 1245 01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:22,720 one more way that I will mention uh how 1246 01:02:20,079 --> 01:02:25,599 you can do it uh it's called Channel 1247 01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:29,839 factories and channel Factory is a way 1248 01:02:25,599 --> 01:02:32,520 to open many channels with single uh 1249 01:02:29,839 --> 01:02:35,680 onchain transaction it would be very 1250 01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:38,839 expensive to close so you would there's 1251 01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:41,720 the the game theory there would be a 1252 01:02:38,839 --> 01:02:44,480 little bit different because you would 1253 01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:46,920 um uh like if you if you want to close 1254 01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:49,680 the channel to prevent cheating you 1255 01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:51,839 would need to pay a load in fees but but 1256 01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:56,240 that's another option that you would say 1257 01:02:51,839 --> 01:03:00,960 Okay um you know 1258 01:02:56,240 --> 01:03:04,920 um what's what's the what's the term new 1259 01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:08,920 coiners um new Bitcoin users uh coming 1260 01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:12,279 to the network uh today they will all 1261 01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:14,920 open they will all wait coordinate and 1262 01:03:12,279 --> 01:03:19,039 open one channel and there will be one 1263 01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:23,599 onchain transaction for 20th December 1264 01:03:19,039 --> 01:03:26,279 2023 which is when we record this uh so 1265 01:03:23,599 --> 01:03:28,720 this is another way you can you can kind 1266 01:03:26,279 --> 01:03:31,599 of combine all the channels this is not 1267 01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:34,760 done um right now but that's that's 1268 01:03:31,599 --> 01:03:41,200 another option so what I see uh coming 1269 01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:44,880 over the next um next few uh years is uh 1270 01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:46,920 more custodial wallets unfortunately I'm 1271 01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:49,359 not saying this is a good solution but 1272 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:50,960 that's what we see people doing using 1273 01:03:49,359 --> 01:03:54,039 things like wallet of 1274 01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,920 Satoshi um or Albi or something like 1275 01:03:54,039 --> 01:03:58,079 that 1276 01:03:54,920 --> 01:04:00,640 uh but Al also allows to be self 1277 01:03:58,079 --> 01:04:04,599 custodial but uh in the in the basic 1278 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:08,079 account so custodial Solutions um ecash 1279 01:04:04,599 --> 01:04:11,440 based system such as cash and fedy Min 1280 01:04:08,079 --> 01:04:13,680 um I hope that there will be these side 1281 01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:16,240 chains that will grow the lightning 1282 01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:19,839 Network it will not be a separate 1283 01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:22,440 lightning network uh such such as liquid 1284 01:04:19,839 --> 01:04:23,920 I think this is the easiest thing to do 1285 01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,760 because all the building blocks are 1286 01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:28,520 already already there there is lightning 1287 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:31,079 on liquid uh there is a way to do the 1288 01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:34,480 bridge uh and the only thing you need to 1289 01:04:31,079 --> 01:04:37,279 do is the user facing wallet uh should 1290 01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:40,599 support both backends and and there 1291 01:04:37,279 --> 01:04:43,480 should be lightning service providers 1292 01:04:40,599 --> 01:04:47,279 um hopefully there will be Channel 1293 01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:52,319 factories and hopefully uh there will be 1294 01:04:47,279 --> 01:04:54,680 uh a less uh fee intensive uh uh 1295 01:04:52,319 --> 01:04:57,640 channels that use St rout and other 1296 01:04:54,680 --> 01:05:00,400 upgrades which still didn't happen so 1297 01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:05,520 there are things to make lightning much 1298 01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:08,160 better and uh and they will be you know 1299 01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:10,359 um the old lightning network will be 1300 01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:13,760 priced out and it was supposed to be 1301 01:05:10,359 --> 01:05:17,279 happen so it was supposed to happen so 1302 01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:20,200 so we will need to try these new 1303 01:05:17,279 --> 01:05:22,599 Solutions so is lightning as it as it 1304 01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:26,079 currently exists is it is it is it 1305 01:05:22,599 --> 01:05:26,079 failing as it currently exists 1306 01:05:27,039 --> 01:05:31,799 uh I don't think so because you have 1307 01:05:29,279 --> 01:05:33,720 options so for example I've been doing 1308 01:05:31,799 --> 01:05:36,680 all my Christmas 1309 01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:40,839 shopping uh with lightning uh but I had 1310 01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:43,599 my channels open you know for months so 1311 01:05:40,839 --> 01:05:45,799 as I say friends don't close channels to 1312 01:05:43,599 --> 01:05:49,200 each other so so I still have the 1313 01:05:45,799 --> 01:05:51,920 channel and I can use it all the time um 1314 01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:54,440 so I don't think it's failing oh one 1315 01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:56,680 pretty nice solution is just uh swapping 1316 01:05:54,440 --> 01:06:00,960 from Monero so you can also do that you 1317 01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:04,480 know you can say Okay um I use a service 1318 01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:08,039 uh that that can uh pay a lightning 1319 01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:09,039 invoice by sending Monero so so that's 1320 01:06:08,039 --> 01:06:11,440 another 1321 01:06:09,039 --> 01:06:15,000 solution um 1322 01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:17,000 so I don't think it's failing but it's 1323 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:19,319 definitely not user friendly for new 1324 01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:20,799 users right now unless they want to go 1325 01:06:19,319 --> 01:06:23,640 custodial like if people are 1326 01:06:20,799 --> 01:06:26,000 recommending oh use wallet of Satoshi 1327 01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:28,920 they will not even notice that there is 1328 01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:32,400 a fee problem on on bitcoin right now no 1329 01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:35,319 but then they have a bank so yeah right 1330 01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:38,319 these these custodial Solutions I mean 1331 01:06:35,319 --> 01:06:41,680 at that point what what is bitcoin right 1332 01:06:38,319 --> 01:06:45,520 what is what is the point of somebody 1333 01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:47,799 using Bitcoin after using it in the in 1334 01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:50,880 this manner does it 1335 01:06:47,799 --> 01:06:53,680 still have a have a use 1336 01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:55,160 case like why why even use Bitcoin at 1337 01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:58,559 that point if you're effectively just 1338 01:06:55,160 --> 01:07:01,319 using it in a custodial manner yes I 1339 01:06:58,559 --> 01:07:04,279 would not be completely against 1340 01:07:01,319 --> 01:07:08,240 custodial if there was like a clear 1341 01:07:04,279 --> 01:07:11,039 upgrade PA if if it would say okay you 1342 01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:14,119 you played with it you tried it you know 1343 01:07:11,039 --> 01:07:16,880 how to use it but now you have a th000 1344 01:07:14,119 --> 01:07:19,520 bucks so it's time to open your own 1345 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:23,119 channel so please press this button and 1346 01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:24,799 you are migrating to non-custodial but 1347 01:07:23,119 --> 01:07:26,680 right now what you have to do is 1348 01:07:24,799 --> 01:07:28,359 essentially install a completely 1349 01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:29,920 different wallet and send it out and 1350 01:07:28,359 --> 01:07:32,319 most people will not do because they 1351 01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:35,319 don't understand the difference but if 1352 01:07:32,319 --> 01:07:38,160 there was a wallet uh even like Phoenix 1353 01:07:35,319 --> 01:07:41,319 or Breeze if they said okay fees are 1354 01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:46,079 high we will not back this sets you 1355 01:07:41,319 --> 01:07:49,960 agree that uh that you trust us up to 1356 01:07:46,079 --> 01:07:52,160 $1,000 and when it's more uh either you 1357 01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:54,720 receive more or the value of Bitcoin 1358 01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:57,359 goes up if if it's more or we will open 1359 01:07:54,720 --> 01:08:00,200 a channel and you will pay a fee that 1360 01:07:57,359 --> 01:08:02,720 would be kind of like not a perfect 1361 01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:06,039 solution but I would say okay this is a 1362 01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:09,720 way to introduce people uh to bitcoin 1363 01:08:06,039 --> 01:08:13,839 not scare them away and it's something 1364 01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:17,199 you can do but uh other otherwise right 1365 01:08:13,839 --> 01:08:21,279 right now it's like uh like a bank and 1366 01:08:17,199 --> 01:08:24,440 an expensive self custo way so right 1367 01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:27,159 right yeah it's just crazy to me know 1368 01:08:24,440 --> 01:08:28,759 that bitcoiners are worried or 1369 01:08:27,159 --> 01:08:31,400 traditionally have been worried 1370 01:08:28,759 --> 01:08:34,640 about people being able to easily run 1371 01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:37,520 run their own node right uh but yet here 1372 01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:39,000 we are in a situation where the average 1373 01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:42,679 person 1374 01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:45,960 worldwide can't effectively use the 1375 01:08:42,679 --> 01:08:47,679 Bitcoin Network right uh can't on board 1376 01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:49,560 we're talking about you know uh this 1377 01:08:47,679 --> 01:08:51,640 there's a lot of people where where you 1378 01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:54,679 know perhaps they're making $10 a day 1379 01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:57,199 right so so like somebody like that that 1380 01:08:54,679 --> 01:08:59,080 um they never even get to the point 1381 01:08:57,199 --> 01:09:00,839 where they move away from the 1382 01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:02,799 non-custodial version because they just 1383 01:09:00,839 --> 01:09:06,600 would never be able to afford it so they 1384 01:09:02,799 --> 01:09:10,480 would just essentially be using 1385 01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:11,799 fzed Bitcoin right and at that point 1386 01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:15,279 have have we 1387 01:09:11,799 --> 01:09:18,080 really solved the original problem that 1388 01:09:15,279 --> 01:09:22,719 that Satoshi set out to 1389 01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:24,560 solve yeah yeah it's a problem I agree 1390 01:09:22,719 --> 01:09:27,359 yeah 1391 01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:30,199 so I guess uh so so given what what we 1392 01:09:27,359 --> 01:09:33,120 spoke about so far right with uh the 1393 01:09:30,199 --> 01:09:35,520 these uh censorship issues in the mining 1394 01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:38,600 Network and the state of of the 1395 01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:42,480 lightning network uh fees being super 1396 01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:46,080 high on bitcoin what do you currently 1397 01:09:42,480 --> 01:09:47,799 see Bitcoin as being what is the what is 1398 01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:50,600 the value proposition of Bitcoin 1399 01:09:47,799 --> 01:09:54,920 becoming do you still see it being 1400 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:57,960 adopted globally as a mean for 1401 01:09:54,920 --> 01:10:00,239 transacting as as a digital cach or 1402 01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:02,480 ultimately does it become something else 1403 01:10:00,239 --> 01:10:08,159 and something like a Monero or whatever 1404 01:10:02,480 --> 01:10:11,640 it is provides the use case of digital 1405 01:10:08,159 --> 01:10:18,560 cache I don't know as you know I like 1406 01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:22,120 Monero uh so I I I'm glad that we have 1407 01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:25,239 another option and uh and we can we can 1408 01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:29,080 use it on the other hand 1409 01:10:25,239 --> 01:10:33,960 uh mono is 100 times smaller than 1410 01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:36,760 Bitcoin so uh if I if I look like uh 1411 01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:39,360 what is the chance of of you know 1412 01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:42,840 something like Monero becoming like a 1413 01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:46,560 widely adopted means of payment I'm not 1414 01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:49,360 even talking about uh um s of value but 1415 01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,199 let let's say cash uh and payments and 1416 01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:51,840 payment 1417 01:10:50,199 --> 01:10:58,520 Network 1418 01:10:51,840 --> 01:11:01,840 um I I think think uh we are um uh we 1419 01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:05,520 are better off uh trying to solve the 1420 01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:09,360 situation on bitcoin as well because 1421 01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:11,920 like if you talk to a random person on a 1422 01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:16,920 street they will they probably have 1423 01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:19,960 never heard of uh of cryptocurrencies if 1424 01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:21,679 they Pro or maybe they have like from 1425 01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:24,280 from news but they don't follow like 1426 01:11:21,679 --> 01:11:26,679 they they don't understand what it 1427 01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:29,600 M they have heard about something they 1428 01:11:26,679 --> 01:11:32,440 have probably heard about Bitcoin they 1429 01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:37,199 have never in their life heard the word 1430 01:11:32,440 --> 01:11:39,120 mono and uh again uh for me until 1431 01:11:37,199 --> 01:11:41,120 Senator Warren starts talking about it 1432 01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:44,000 we need 1433 01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:46,760 to for that sh down effect to kick in 1434 01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:48,600 yes she she she will not get the word 1435 01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:52,800 right she will call call it something 1436 01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:54,239 else a friend's uh a friend's wife uh 1437 01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:59,040 who is a 1438 01:11:54,239 --> 01:11:59,040 Taiwanese Chinese calls it 1439 01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:07,800 Manolo so anyway so um again I'm a 1440 01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:11,320 cipher punk I like that something like 1441 01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:15,320 Monero exists I have people who I use it 1442 01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:18,760 with uh the same way I was using pgp to 1443 01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:22,440 send encrypted emails to my few weirdo 1444 01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:24,560 friends and uh and it worked but if I 1445 01:12:22,440 --> 01:12:27,880 wanted to you know 1446 01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:30,040 write an email to a hotel and it came 1447 01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:31,719 pgp signed and encrypted they would 1448 01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:37,120 probably think it's a 1449 01:12:31,719 --> 01:12:40,480 virus so so I don't think that um that 1450 01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:43,520 Monero will have a global adoption but I 1451 01:12:40,480 --> 01:12:47,120 also think it doesn't have to like I I 1452 01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:49,280 think that the state like if nothing 1453 01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:52,080 happened in Monero if it stayed exactly 1454 01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:54,639 like it is no more services like we 1455 01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:56,760 would just be you know using it among a 1456 01:12:54,639 --> 01:13:01,040 few people it would be used on dark 1457 01:12:56,760 --> 01:13:03,120 markets and you know few stores that 1458 01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:06,679 that like it and there would be proxy 1459 01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:10,320 Merchants which there are already in in 1460 01:13:06,679 --> 01:13:14,639 many places I still consider Monero 1461 01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:17,199 being a success uh for like more mass 1462 01:13:14,639 --> 01:13:20,760 onboarding I think we're still better 1463 01:13:17,199 --> 01:13:22,639 off with Bitcoin because they have like 1464 01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:25,440 people have at least something in their 1465 01:13:22,639 --> 01:13:28,280 mind okay I don't know what Bitcoin is 1466 01:13:25,440 --> 01:13:30,719 but I've heard you know my crazy cousin 1467 01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:33,840 talk about it or something like that so 1468 01:13:30,719 --> 01:13:37,120 so there's something to kind kind of uh 1469 01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:41,560 hold to and expand the knowledge so I 1470 01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:46,239 think Bitcoin is uh our best chance of 1471 01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:50,239 onboarding people to better money and uh 1472 01:13:46,239 --> 01:13:53,800 better uh like hard money more private 1473 01:13:50,239 --> 01:13:56,880 payment system and so on so I think it's 1474 01:13:53,800 --> 01:14:00,040 the alternative I I don't think like I'm 1475 01:13:56,880 --> 01:14:01,920 not a maximalist or anything but if I 1476 01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:04,719 talk to a complete 1477 01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:06,960 nocoiner I will talk about Bitcoin I 1478 01:14:04,719 --> 01:14:09,840 will not even bother them with you know 1479 01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:12,199 there are many coins if they ask okay so 1480 01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:17,520 what do you like I will mention Monero 1481 01:14:12,199 --> 01:14:21,120 because of my values and I um I like the 1482 01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:24,600 the community uh I like the the values I 1483 01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:27,880 like The Cypher Punk and or even lunar 1484 01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:30,480 Punk EOS so there are many things to 1485 01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:34,080 admire many ways how you can use moner 1486 01:14:30,480 --> 01:14:37,400 right now uh but for complete no coiners 1487 01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:39,320 I would just tell them okay there is 1488 01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:42,719 this thing called Bitcoin you need to 1489 01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:45,239 hold your own Keys it's the alternative 1490 01:14:42,719 --> 01:14:47,080 Fiat is failing and you know save 1491 01:14:45,239 --> 01:14:54,360 yourself and get 1492 01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:59,159 some um so uh yeah I as you uh 1493 01:14:54,360 --> 01:15:02,080 like um after after the uh it's a maybe 1494 01:14:59,159 --> 01:15:04,800 not the not the best metaphor but uh 1495 01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:08,360 when um uh when 1496 01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:11,600 the um when the US froze the assets of 1497 01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:15,239 the Russian Central Bank uh many 1498 01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:17,679 countries uh who are who hold US dollar 1499 01:15:15,239 --> 01:15:20,880 reserves they were like oh okay what is 1500 01:15:17,679 --> 01:15:24,000 happening you know China okay you can 1501 01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:26,000 just freeze our money uh it's it's kind 1502 01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:30,360 of a problem and they started thinking 1503 01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:33,080 okay so this is a problem we need to uh 1504 01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:35,360 kind of if not replace but start using 1505 01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:38,360 something else as a global Reserve 1506 01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:41,080 currency but what is the problem there 1507 01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:43,320 is nothing else in the Fiat world that 1508 01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:46,560 is as good as US dollar and the US 1509 01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:50,239 dollar is not that good but Euro and 1510 01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:53,280 Yuan or reny B and Yen 1511 01:15:50,239 --> 01:15:58,679 and all all these coins they're just 1512 01:15:53,280 --> 01:16:02,280 just 10 times worse you know so so yes 1513 01:15:58,679 --> 01:16:05,560 there is a problem with USD you know uh 1514 01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:08,560 I not only me as a person but even 1515 01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:11,679 States realize okay my account can be 1516 01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:15,520 just Frozen and I'm taking a huge risk 1517 01:16:11,679 --> 01:16:17,639 with this USD thing but I don't have any 1518 01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:20,480 realistic options so with Bitcoin I 1519 01:16:17,639 --> 01:16:23,159 think it's the same I I I say okay 1520 01:16:20,480 --> 01:16:25,800 Bitcoin has high fee problems there are 1521 01:16:23,159 --> 01:16:30,120 any problems with privacy and so 1522 01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:33,400 on but it's the best thing uh the best 1523 01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:36,880 parallel Financial system best options 1524 01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:39,120 that we have right now unless you are a 1525 01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:42,480 Cypher Punk and geek and like to 1526 01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:44,719 synchronize your wallets and play with 1527 01:16:42,480 --> 01:16:47,520 play with these Technologies or unless 1528 01:16:44,719 --> 01:16:50,480 you are buying or dealing drugs on dark 1529 01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:53,800 markets and all these other uh 1530 01:16:50,480 --> 01:16:57,080 interesting things but the difference is 1531 01:16:53,800 --> 01:17:00,440 the the um other options do like Monero 1532 01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:02,760 does exist as another option and and 1533 01:17:00,440 --> 01:17:06,239 it's getting to the point where it's 1534 01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:09,360 it's easy it's easier to use Monero than 1535 01:17:06,239 --> 01:17:11,440 Bitcoin if you're using it for digital 1536 01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:15,000 cash right if you're using it for 1537 01:17:11,440 --> 01:17:18,760 spending um and built into it is 1538 01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:22,520 privacy uh transactions are super cheap 1539 01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:26,320 so I I don't know people to start to to 1540 01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:28,600 use these things that's when the 1541 01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:32,040 realization will 1542 01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:34,600 happen yes and no uh the thing is that 1543 01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:37,120 people are not using it that much so I 1544 01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:41,520 said I was doing a lot of my Christmas 1545 01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:44,520 shopping uh and you know the biggest 1546 01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:47,159 local Amazon like service which is 1547 01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:49,120 called alza takes lightning takes 1548 01:17:47,159 --> 01:17:53,320 Bitcoin takes Litecoin doesn't take 1549 01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:56,040 Monero uh there's a um in prag uh I 1550 01:17:53,320 --> 01:18:00,760 don't know if it was when you attended 1551 01:17:56,040 --> 01:18:03,360 Monero con uh already but there's a uh 1552 01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:06,760 there's a service called 1553 01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:09,679 quero like from the QR code uh which is 1554 01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:12,320 a way to for restaurants to offer 1555 01:18:09,679 --> 01:18:15,320 ordering and paying for food so so you 1556 01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:17,400 see you can a QR code at the table you 1557 01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:19,360 order and you can pay directly there and 1558 01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:24,199 you can pay with lightning but not 1559 01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:26,920 Monero so so yes Technic Al you know 1560 01:18:24,199 --> 01:18:29,280 wallets are super user friendly but the 1561 01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:31,920 ATM will not sell you Monero the 1562 01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:34,600 merchant will not take it so so I think 1563 01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:37,040 the network effect is a huge part of the 1564 01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:39,000 user experience and that is not there on 1565 01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:41,719 the other hand on the dark markets they 1566 01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:44,120 will not take Bitcoin right now I have 1567 01:18:41,719 --> 01:18:48,840 read that some dark Market I don't know 1568 01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:51,880 I I not used dark market for a very long 1569 01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:54,639 time but I've read that some are 1570 01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:58,679 delisting Bitcoin not from for privacy 1571 01:18:54,639 --> 01:19:00,520 reasons but for fear reasons uh so so 1572 01:18:58,679 --> 01:19:02,600 that that is happening but I I think 1573 01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:05,520 that infrastructure like the acceptance 1574 01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:08,560 and the network effects uh are a huge 1575 01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:11,360 part uh of the user experience but even 1576 01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:16,040 this can be improved so uh recently a 1577 01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:18,639 few days ago cake wallet was uh asking 1578 01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:21,639 uh what should they do to improve the 1579 01:19:18,639 --> 01:19:24,159 user experience uh and I told them I 1580 01:19:21,639 --> 01:19:26,719 have it in my book you know I have a I 1581 01:19:24,159 --> 01:19:29,960 have a chapter in cryptocurrencies heck 1582 01:19:26,719 --> 01:19:32,920 your way to a better life about my 1583 01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:35,560 vision for a very good 1584 01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:37,719 wallet and one of the things I would 1585 01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:43,800 like to see in every Wallet not only in 1586 01:19:37,719 --> 01:19:47,199 cake is I scan a QR code any QR code and 1587 01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:49,960 they will make uh the payment happen so 1588 01:19:47,199 --> 01:19:52,560 if I scan a lightning QR code with cake 1589 01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:55,120 wallet I want to pay it you know they 1590 01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:57,639 can swap it on the background I don't I 1591 01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:59,480 don't care you know preferably it would 1592 01:19:57,639 --> 01:20:02,199 work even with Fiat you know in many 1593 01:19:59,480 --> 01:20:05,199 countries you have all these you know 1594 01:20:02,199 --> 01:20:06,960 Ved or or different kinds of like I was 1595 01:20:05,199 --> 01:20:09,760 in Thailand recently they have like 1596 01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:13,280 their local network I just want to scan 1597 01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:16,040 the QR code and click send you know and 1598 01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:19,520 if if you know it sends a Monero 1599 01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:22,120 transaction and it's you know um swapped 1600 01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:23,560 in the background or whatever I don't 1601 01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:27,239 care that would be a great user 1602 01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:31,679 experience and and then you know okay I 1603 01:20:27,239 --> 01:20:35,320 suddenly got uh access to the whole uh 1604 01:20:31,679 --> 01:20:37,239 network of um of merchants that accept 1605 01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:39,760 whatever whatever they coin you know I 1606 01:20:37,239 --> 01:20:43,600 don't I don't care about their religion 1607 01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:47,760 if they want you know pink shells or 1608 01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:50,560 whatever Argentinian Pesos or whatever I 1609 01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:52,480 don't care you know I I'm at the counter 1610 01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:54,760 I ordered coffee and I want to pay it 1611 01:20:52,480 --> 01:20:56,920 you know and I have this wallet and the 1612 01:20:54,760 --> 01:21:00,280 first wallet that allows me to do this 1613 01:20:56,920 --> 01:21:03,760 uh is going to have a have a I think a 1614 01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:06,400 huge traction and and literally the best 1615 01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:07,639 user experience so at this point I don't 1616 01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:09,360 don't think it's that much about 1617 01:21:07,639 --> 01:21:12,000 technology and by the way credit cards 1618 01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:14,440 do this you know you you you went to 1619 01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:17,320 Czech Republic probably you take a 1620 01:21:14,440 --> 01:21:21,239 credit card you tap it somewhere and 1621 01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:23,920 whatever US dollars to check grounds yep 1622 01:21:21,239 --> 01:21:27,040 yep yeah I mean 1623 01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:29,920 um would be amazing to see cake to see 1624 01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:32,639 cake come out something like that that 1625 01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:34,400 that's a great Point uh they just they 1626 01:21:32,639 --> 01:21:37,880 just added I don't know if you saw They 1627 01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:40,239 just added uh an exchange uh DFX so 1628 01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:44,719 there's now you can buy Monero 1629 01:21:40,239 --> 01:21:47,719 essentially in Europe kyc free with with 1630 01:21:44,719 --> 01:21:49,600 Fiat um I wasn't even familiar with this 1631 01:21:47,719 --> 01:21:53,600 D do you know DFX 1632 01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:56,520 Swiss no I don't your seamless Gateway 1633 01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:59,400 between Fiat and Bitcoin or crypto so 1634 01:21:56,520 --> 01:22:01,280 that's it's it's a it's not animos 1635 01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:04,400 payment probably because the Fiat 1636 01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:07,159 network will provide them with your name 1637 01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:09,280 and something but it's you don't you 1638 01:22:07,159 --> 01:22:13,560 don't have to dance with the passport 1639 01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:16,360 and everything so that's that's 1640 01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:18,800 nice um yeah I think I think they were 1641 01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:21,679 saying though it's it's kyc free up to 1642 01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:24,800 $1,000 or something but yes that 1643 01:22:21,679 --> 01:22:27,600 probably means they don't do kyc but the 1644 01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:29,320 credit card payment or Apple pay or what 1645 01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:32,360 Google pay that is happening on the 1646 01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:34,840 background right will right we we'll 1647 01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:37,600 give them uh your identity I'm I'm a 1648 01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:40,719 merchant uh as well I also accept credit 1649 01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:43,520 cards for for my book and I see it you 1650 01:22:40,719 --> 01:22:45,520 know everyone is super Anonymous they 1651 01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:48,199 send it to you know a fake name or 1652 01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:51,280 something and then I look at the account 1653 01:22:48,199 --> 01:22:53,239 movements in my Company accounting and I 1654 01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:56,600 and I see everything so 1655 01:22:53,239 --> 01:22:59,199 right yeah but but but it's very user 1656 01:22:56,600 --> 01:23:01,920 friendly if you don't have you know to 1657 01:22:59,199 --> 01:23:04,760 take a selfie with a passport and send 1658 01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:08,639 it to them so definitely an improvement 1659 01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:10,760 yeah so so is amazing I I I like what 1660 01:23:08,639 --> 01:23:12,880 they're doing okay 1661 01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:14,800 yeah they and they they they keep 1662 01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:18,480 iterating they keep improving they keep 1663 01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:23,639 adding features uh Vic doesn't stop you 1664 01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:26,080 know I love that um so just kind kind of 1665 01:23:23,639 --> 01:23:30,320 back to the question so so you do see 1666 01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:34,239 Bitcoin then still maintaining its value 1667 01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:38,920 proposition as a as a digital cache 1668 01:23:34,239 --> 01:23:43,639 Network just perhaps not as originally 1669 01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:47,120 envisioned um so yes lightning was not 1670 01:23:43,639 --> 01:23:50,639 originally envisioned either so yes even 1671 01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:52,960 if it's people using custodial custodial 1672 01:23:50,639 --> 01:23:56,040 lightning um you see that that that 1673 01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:59,040 gaining traction and being globally 1674 01:23:56,040 --> 01:24:01,679 adopted and people are using Bitcoin in 1675 01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:05,679 that fashion to make transactions 1676 01:24:01,679 --> 01:24:09,320 daily I think so and I would not be too 1677 01:24:05,679 --> 01:24:11,520 opposed if I can make a choice even if I 1678 01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:14,800 have to pay for it you know if I can say 1679 01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:17,440 okay you do your custodial thing but if 1680 01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:21,000 you pay me I wanton real Bitcoin I don't 1681 01:24:17,440 --> 01:24:22,920 want you know a ledger entry with wallet 1682 01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:26,120 of Satoshi uh 1683 01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:30,080 if if it's interoperable in such a way 1684 01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:34,600 that I can decide for myself um I would 1685 01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:38,199 say um it's still like if you 1686 01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:41,800 can pay uh to be self- custodial it 1687 01:24:38,199 --> 01:24:46,520 doesn't have to be free then uh then I 1688 01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:50,480 think uh I think it's still kind of yeah 1689 01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:54,199 I think it's still uh holding to the or 1690 01:24:50,480 --> 01:24:56,760 uh fulfilling the original value 1691 01:24:54,199 --> 01:24:59,840 proposition now now the the the crypto 1692 01:24:56,760 --> 01:25:02,880 Anarchist in you which is all of you I 1693 01:24:59,840 --> 01:25:05,080 would say from what I gather of you um 1694 01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:08,560 do you do you potentially take issue 1695 01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:11,040 with it I mean do you see it as not 1696 01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:14,400 fulfilling that aspect of its value 1697 01:25:11,040 --> 01:25:16,360 proposition or does it still function as 1698 01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:19,199 you know [ __ ] you money that the state 1699 01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:20,520 can't control surveil or censor right 1700 01:25:19,199 --> 01:25:22,360 because ultimately if you get to the 1701 01:25:20,520 --> 01:25:25,040 point where yes the whole world is using 1702 01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:27,040 Bitcoin but they're using it in a manner 1703 01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:31,400 that's essentially 1704 01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:33,520 fzed um are do we do we need to should 1705 01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:35,520 we then be fighting for something like a 1706 01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:38,000 Monero to be globally adopted I know 1707 01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:41,440 you're saying you don't likely see that 1708 01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:43,960 happening it might be more Niche but the 1709 01:25:41,440 --> 01:25:46,400 crypto Anarchist in you wouldn't you 1710 01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:47,719 want to fight to see adoption of that 1711 01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:49,920 just like you did in the early days of 1712 01:25:47,719 --> 01:25:51,760 Bitcoin right when Bitcoin was nothing 1713 01:25:49,920 --> 01:25:54,440 and we we had the dollar and the dollar 1714 01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:56,159 was was worth working quote unquote fine 1715 01:25:54,440 --> 01:25:58,400 why did we need to go out of our way to 1716 01:25:56,159 --> 01:26:00,560 to to get the world to try to adopt 1717 01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:03,679 Bitcoin because the V Vision was once 1718 01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:06,239 once it happened it would be this thing 1719 01:26:03,679 --> 01:26:08,840 that's detached from the state it would 1720 01:26:06,239 --> 01:26:09,960 slowly reduce the power of the state 1721 01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:13,360 over 1722 01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:15,280 time is that a is that a problem with 1723 01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:17,080 Bitcoin does that aspect of Bitcoin 1724 01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:23,040 start to fall 1725 01:26:17,080 --> 01:26:25,440 apart I think uh even uh even if the for 1726 01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:30,639 majority of people it would become this 1727 01:26:25,440 --> 01:26:34,040 kind of fzed custodial thing uh I'm not 1728 01:26:30,639 --> 01:26:37,600 that interested in the majority so uh 1729 01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:39,840 crypto Anarchy is not a not a like a 1730 01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:42,760 philosophy that should be adopted by 1731 01:26:39,840 --> 01:26:46,440 everyone it says okay if you want to opt 1732 01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:50,880 out if you want to live in a certain way 1733 01:26:46,440 --> 01:26:52,800 you have the technology yes nice t-shirt 1734 01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:56,040 um if you have the 1735 01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:58,760 technological options to to do that then 1736 01:26:56,040 --> 01:27:02,239 it's okay you know it's not a it's not a 1737 01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:03,800 strategy such as uh I would say anarch 1738 01:27:02,239 --> 01:27:09,280 capitalism or 1739 01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:12,159 agorism um to kind of uh create this uh 1740 01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:15,520 uh this worldwide Revolution for 1741 01:27:12,159 --> 01:27:18,920 everyone I think if it gives me the 1742 01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:22,440 option to use it the way I want uh and 1743 01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:25,119 this option includes sufficient enough 1744 01:27:22,440 --> 01:27:27,880 Network then I'm okay with it so as I 1745 01:27:25,119 --> 01:27:31,639 said even if Monero didn't change the 1746 01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:34,679 bit if there was not any like if there 1747 01:27:31,639 --> 01:27:36,639 were no new Merchants coming into Monero 1748 01:27:34,679 --> 01:27:39,040 that the development would just stop 1749 01:27:36,639 --> 01:27:41,280 everyone would chill out and just the 1750 01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:44,320 miners would mine blocks and it will 1751 01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:47,239 operate uh as it currently does I think 1752 01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:50,400 it is a useful tool for a crypto 1753 01:27:47,239 --> 01:27:53,040 Anarchist I think the same about Bitcoin 1754 01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:56,000 I'm like everyone is is awaiting you 1755 01:27:53,040 --> 01:27:59,320 know people are coming because of the 1756 01:27:56,000 --> 01:28:02,440 ETFs and you know there will be Bitcoin 1757 01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:04,920 will be worth 10x and so on I say if 1758 01:28:02,440 --> 01:28:08,920 nothing happened if like Bitcoin stayed 1759 01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:12,600 the same as it is right now I think it 1760 01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:16,520 is already a super useful tool for uh 1761 01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:18,639 increasing your Liberty and having a way 1762 01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:21,360 out of the of the Fiat system of the 1763 01:28:18,639 --> 01:28:24,040 dollar system so it's up to people you 1764 01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:27,480 know if the people want to use it the 1765 01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:30,639 way they use Fiat and if they don't 1766 01:28:27,480 --> 01:28:34,400 value the self custodial and hard money 1767 01:28:30,639 --> 01:28:37,040 properties and and privacy properties 1768 01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:39,119 let's say uh then it's their choice I 1769 01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:43,560 don't want to force anyone to do 1770 01:28:39,119 --> 01:28:46,639 anything so so you know I'm not like 1771 01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:48,719 many bitcoiners are part of the you know 1772 01:28:46,639 --> 01:28:52,119 worldwide Revolution and 1773 01:28:48,719 --> 01:28:55,600 hyperbitcoinization and all these things 1774 01:28:52,119 --> 01:28:59,840 I think that's not necessary I I think 1775 01:28:55,600 --> 01:29:02,840 if it's useful for us uh and if people 1776 01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:06,880 who uh it might be useful for if they 1777 01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:12,360 can come in one way or another uh then 1778 01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:16,719 then it's okay I wouldn't I wouldn't be 1779 01:29:12,360 --> 01:29:18,199 worried all right you're right mat thank 1780 01:29:16,719 --> 01:29:19,520 you so go ahead go ahead you had 1781 01:29:18,199 --> 01:29:23,800 something else to 1782 01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:28,360 say just it's just that uh it's a like 1783 01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:30,840 many people when they hear the the word 1784 01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:34,080 or phrase Crypton Archies they think 1785 01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:36,119 it's uh it's it's negative you know you 1786 01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:38,679 need to hide the encryption and 1787 01:29:36,119 --> 01:29:41,320 everything and the Anarchy of course is 1788 01:29:38,679 --> 01:29:43,320 very dangerous and so on and I see it 1789 01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:46,199 the opposite way it's a it's a very 1790 01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:48,920 positive thing that you have the option 1791 01:29:46,199 --> 01:29:52,320 of living your life the way you want 1792 01:29:48,920 --> 01:29:55,639 peaceful and it's peaceful exactly leave 1793 01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:57,840 me alone just leave me alone yeah yeah 1794 01:29:55,639 --> 01:29:59,880 and you have to and you don't have to 1795 01:29:57,840 --> 01:30:03,119 convince everyone and and frankly it's 1796 01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:06,480 not for everyone so do you do you think 1797 01:30:03,119 --> 01:30:10,360 you know do you think it's it's futile 1798 01:30:06,480 --> 01:30:12,360 or or um a waste of energy to like 1799 01:30:10,360 --> 01:30:15,480 obviously I think I believe we should 1800 01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:18,239 try to to grow the Monero ecosystem as 1801 01:30:15,480 --> 01:30:21,560 much as possible because it just it it 1802 01:30:18,239 --> 01:30:26,320 then brings more value to to the tool 1803 01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:30,080 right so uh yeah you could opt out today 1804 01:30:26,320 --> 01:30:32,320 but opting out becomes even better for 1805 01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:34,800 me and for everybody else that has 1806 01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:36,000 already opt out if more people join that 1807 01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:39,639 join that 1808 01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:42,320 camp right yes I agree but that doesn't 1809 01:30:39,639 --> 01:30:45,880 mean I go to you know walk go into the 1810 01:30:42,320 --> 01:30:48,520 City and go into a marijuana shop and 1811 01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:51,560 buy my marijuana with with the Monero 1812 01:30:48,520 --> 01:30:53,880 transaction directly that's fantastic if 1813 01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:56,280 I could could go and buy my dinner with 1814 01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:59,000 the Monero transaction directly um you 1815 01:30:56,280 --> 01:31:02,000 know all all those things now 1816 01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:03,520 improve my you know my my freedom and 1817 01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:06,880 liberty Index 1818 01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:10,040 right exactly it's just uh I don't 1819 01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:13,679 believe in kind of pushing people into 1820 01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:16,960 it you know so I so the my strategy is 1821 01:31:13,679 --> 01:31:20,199 yes I want to help well I wrote wrote a 1822 01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:23,040 book about about cryptocurrencies so I'm 1823 01:31:20,199 --> 01:31:24,679 trying to improve adoption but doing 1824 01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:29,000 your part don't give it yeah of course 1825 01:31:24,679 --> 01:31:32,360 you are but people have to you know get 1826 01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:35,159 the book and uh invest time into reading 1827 01:31:32,360 --> 01:31:37,679 it so it's not that I would be like you 1828 01:31:35,159 --> 01:31:39,800 know running around and you know 1829 01:31:37,679 --> 01:31:42,000 grabbing grandma from the street and 1830 01:31:39,800 --> 01:31:44,920 telling a you need to buy Bitcoin now 1831 01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:47,520 you know world is going to [ __ ] even 1832 01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:50,360 though I think it's going like I've read 1833 01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:54,239 a an interesting book called uh enjoy 1834 01:31:50,360 --> 01:31:56,800 the decline about about how the economy 1835 01:31:54,239 --> 01:31:59,960 is going to [ __ ] and how to enjoy it 1836 01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:04,840 and it I I just finished fantastic funny 1837 01:31:59,960 --> 01:32:08,840 book uh but U yes so so my strategy is 1838 01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:12,960 not onboard everyone uh but on board on 1839 01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:15,280 board anyone who is interested that's uh 1840 01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:18,040 that's my 1841 01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:20,080 strategy all right man we will uh we 1842 01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:21,239 will leave it at that thank you so much 1843 01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:23,560 thanks for jumping on thank you so much 1844 01:32:21,239 --> 01:32:26,320 for having again it's good to talk to 1845 01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:27,960 you again I hope uh I don't know if 1846 01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:31,360 there's a way but we're looking to have 1847 01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:34,480 monot toia in Buenos Aus approximately a 1848 01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:37,000 year from now would be amazing to have 1849 01:32:34,480 --> 01:32:41,360 you down there I don't know if we'll see 1850 01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:45,000 what will happen to and Argentina in a 1851 01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:48,480 year it's it's pretty wild there myav 1852 01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:51,199 was just there and he he just flew from 1853 01:32:48,480 --> 01:32:53,199 from buen oires so looking forward I 1854 01:32:51,199 --> 01:32:56,600 never been to Argentina and I always 1855 01:32:53,199 --> 01:33:00,639 wanted to and if that means even going 1856 01:32:56,600 --> 01:33:03,119 to monotop that's another another plus 1857 01:33:00,639 --> 01:33:06,280 point so I would definitely try to make 1858 01:33:03,119 --> 01:33:08,000 it happen awesome man yeah we have uh I 1859 01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:09,679 think Pav's gonna be jumping on Monero 1860 01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:10,800 Topia this weekend I'm gonna be I'm 1861 01:33:09,679 --> 01:33:14,480 gonna 1862 01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:17,520 be yeah yeah yeah Co all right buddy we 1863 01:33:14,480 --> 01:33:20,600 will uh we will be in touch happy happy 1864 01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:23,960 holidays and enjoy the family time Merry 1865 01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:27,560 Christmas see Christmas tree up there um 1866 01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:30,040 enjoy I generated it in my mono 1867 01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:32,040 spaceship yes I figured I figur that 1868 01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:36,080 that was not a not a real one I I love 1869 01:33:32,040 --> 01:33:40,880 youro I I completely merged up I have a 1870 01:33:36,080 --> 01:33:44,480 monotop cap I have a mono t-shirt 1871 01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:47,040 and and the background so I'm 1872 01:33:44,480 --> 01:33:49,480 ready traveling through space and time 1873 01:33:47,040 --> 01:33:52,400 in your Monero spaceship yes you're 1874 01:33:49,480 --> 01:33:54,280 right thank you so much man as I I I 1875 01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:56,600 always greatly enjoy these conversations 1876 01:33:54,280 --> 01:33:59,520 I appreciate it thank you yeah me too 1877 01:33:56,600 --> 01:34:01,639 byebye all right cheers thank you for 1878 01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:03,960 joining us on this week's episode we 1879 01:34:01,639 --> 01:34:05,639 release new episodes every week you can 1880 01:34:03,960 --> 01:34:09,280 find And subscribe to our show on 1881 01:34:05,639 --> 01:34:11,679 YouTube Odyssey iTunes Spotify Stitcher 1882 01:34:09,280 --> 01:34:13,600 or wherever you listen to podcasts go to 1883 01:34:11,679 --> 01:34:15,360 Monero talk. live to subscribe for a 1884 01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:17,760 full list of places where you can watch 1885 01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:20,480 and listen if you want to interact with 1886 01:34:17,760 --> 01:34:22,239 us guests or other podcast listeners you 1887 01:34:20,480 --> 01:34:24,400 can follow us on Twitter 1888 01:34:22,239 --> 01:34:26,280 and please leave us a review on iTunes 1889 01:34:24,400 --> 01:34:28,560 it helps people find the show and we are 1890 01:34:26,280 --> 01:34:30,560 always happy to read them so thanks so 1891 01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:32,840 much and we look forward to being back 1892 01:34:30,560 --> 01:34:32,840 next 1893 01:34:33,860 --> 01:34:37,020 [Music] 1894 01:34:39,960 --> 01:34:42,960 week