Latest / Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney / Photography, Faith and Family, how to balance it all. With Olly Knight

Transcript

Photography, Faith and Family, how to balance it all. With Olly Knight · Wedding Pros who are ready to grow - with Becca Pountney

• 0:00
  Just double down on my style and not feel that I needed to put stuff out into social media or my website that would, you know, kind of try and entice all these, you know, kind of couples in fields
• 0:12
  kind of photos.
• 0:13
  But actually just, you know, go for the raw, go for the unscripted, go for the moments.
• 0:17
  So I think, yeah, it's quite niche for me as a wedding photographer, but I think that would be the thing that I'd change if I was to go back.
• 1:05
  I'm Becca Poutney, wedding business marketing expert, strategist, speaker and author.
• 1:11
  Over the last decade, I've combined my love of marketing with my knowledge of the wedding industry to help thousands of wedding pros and venues just like you learn new skills, strategize, get re energized and grow their businesses.
• 1:23
  Because after all, that's how you stay top of your game.
• 1:26
  Whether you're brand new into this industry or been here forever, I want to help.
• 1:30
  So grab a cup of tea or a cocktail, sit back and enjoy a brand new episode of my award winning podcast, Wedding Pros who Are Ready to Grow.
• 1:38
  Let's get going with today's episode.
• 1:44
  Today I'm chatting with wedding photographer Ollie Knight.
• 1:46
  Based in Canterbury, he's been Capturing Weddings since 2011 and he's worked with over 400 couples.
• 1:53
  When not working, you'll find Ollie making memories with his family, playing music at his church or out for a run.
• 1:58
  Today I'm going to find out more about the man behind the camera, the highs and lows of his business journey, and how he juggles faith, family and photography.
• 2:06
  Ollie, welcome to the podcast.
• 2:08
  Hey, thanks so much for having me, Becca.
• 2:10
  Appreciate it.
• 2:10
  It's an absol.
• 2:12
  I'm so excited to have you on.
• 2:14
  I'm so excited to chat to you, find out more about you, about your business.
• 2:17
  But for my listeners, I always like to take people back.
• 2:20
  So give us a brief rundown of your career history before weddings because I think we can learn a lot about the person based on what they've done in the past.
• 2:29
  So walk us through it.
• 2:31
  What led you to where you are today?
• 2:32
  Wow.
• 2:33
  Okay, so it's a little bit interesting.
• 2:36
  So I never knew I wanted to do at school.
• 2:40
  I always was kind of, I don't know, like B and C boy rather than a star boy at school.
• 2:45
  So I was, I was always, you know, I tried at school, but I never really knew what I wanted to do.
• 2:51
  So I went to university in Kent to study politics and I knew quite quickly that I didn't want to do that with a career.
• 2:59
  So I didn't want to become the PM or a civil servant or anything like that.
• 3:03
  And then I think I did many, many, many jobs in my early 20s, so a little bit of a flavor.
• 3:10
  So I tried to make it in my band called Eben and we were signed to like an indie label and we did like a tour with BBC Introducing.
• 3:19
  It was quite exciting.
• 3:20
  But then we all kind of got married and settled down and started having kids and then the band kind of, yeah, went separate ways.
• 3:28
  I also tried other things.
• 3:29
  I was a driving instructor for two years.
• 3:32
  That was like.
• 3:33
  It taught me about, you know, setting up a business.
• 3:36
  But yeah, that was a, that was, I don't know, for a creative that was incredibly frustrating.
• 3:41
  I didn't really find too much joy from doing that.
• 3:44
  But I also did other little random jobs.
• 3:46
  Like I had one job as a temp where I was ringing up plumbers, asking them what toilets they're installing.
• 3:51
  I did other jobs, like I worked for a wildlife trust.
• 3:54
  So I had to dress up as a deer one day and go down Canterbury High street dressed as a deer.
• 4:00
  And I had a horrendous moment where some teenagers tried to mount me and simulate mating acts upon me as a dressed up deer.
• 4:08
  It was very, very strange, to be honest.
• 4:10
  Becca.
• 4:10
  So yeah, I had many, many.
• 4:12
  I actually found what I really wanted to do in life.
• 4:16
  I always thought that working as a musician in my church would be like my dream job and like being like a worship pastor as they call it.
• 4:23
  So like in charge of the musicians and singers and yeah, stuff like that.
• 4:28
  I thought that would be my dream job actually.
• 4:30
  I did that for a few years and it turned out it wasn't my dream job and I kind of stumbled into wedding photography.
• 4:37
  So my brother in law, guy called Wally, which is a great name, he showed me his camera and we're out at Washbrook's Farm in Hurstbury Point in Sussex and he just showed me his camera and how it could
• 4:47
  work and I was fascinated by it.
• 4:49
  And so the next day I bought one online and then never looked back.
• 4:54
  Offered to do a friend's wedding from church.
• 4:56
  They said yes, let me loose with the camera and that's how it all started.
• 5:00
  So yeah, back in 2011 that's, that's when it kicked off.
• 5:02
  I love that.
• 5:03
  And you've got such an interesting history when it comes to career and I think that's actually quite normal for creatives.
• 5:08
  I think I look back at my own career history and I think it's a bit random.
• 5:12
  I worked at Haven as a fun star for three months.
• 5:15
  I worked on Deal or no Deal.
• 5:16
  Like, I've done all sorts of things.
• 5:17
  I've done Deal or no Deal.
• 5:18
  Yeah.
• 5:18
  That's a whole nother story.
• 5:19
  Yeah, I did.
• 5:20
  I worked on Deal or no Deal with Noel Edmonds.
• 5:22
  That was one of my first jobs out of universe.
• 5:24
  What were you doing?
• 5:26
  I was.
• 5:26
  Well, I started as a production runner, so I was doing, like, cleaning up and making sure Noel was happy.
• 5:32
  And then I went up to production secretary and then I went up to production coordinator.
• 5:35
  So I used to do things like ring contestants and tell them they'd been booked for the show and they didn't believe me.
• 5:40
  Like, it was.
• 5:41
  It was an interesting job, but it was.
• 5:44
  What was Noel like to work for?
• 5:45
  Is he nice?
• 5:46
  I actually really like Noel.
• 5:47
  He was.
• 5:47
  He was an interesting character.
• 5:49
  He's got some interesting beliefs.
• 5:51
  But it was kind of perfect for that show because Deal or no Deal is ultimately just people opening a cardboard box.
• 5:57
  It really is as basic as that.
• 5:59
  And so actually, you need the presenter to have all these kind of weird, wacky ideas about what's going to be in the box and lucky numbers for it to work.
• 6:06
  So, yeah, I've had a very varied career, but I think it's quite often for creatives and entrepreneurs that that happens, because there is not really.
• 6:13
  You don't go to school.
• 6:14
  And they say, you know, when you.
• 6:15
  When you grow up, you could enter the wedding industry.
• 6:18
  When you grow up, you could have a podcast.
• 6:19
  You.
• 6:20
  You know, that's not kind of a set route.
• 6:22
  And I think that's why sometimes it takes us a while to find our path.
• 6:25
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:26
  Absolutely.
• 6:27
  I kind of feel like through every random job that I've had in the past, or through, like, I don't know, just like, all the.
• 6:34
  All the little kind of, like highs and lows throughout my different, you know, careers.
• 6:39
  It seems like every single job was, you know, kind of signposted towards the next one or made me realize I definitely don't want to be doing this with my life.
• 6:49
  And then it kind of rushes you on a little bit.
• 6:51
  But you always pick up skills through different jobs, and I think that forms kind of part of who you are and kind of definitely put some resilience in you.
• 6:59
  I think, like, even thinking back to, like, paper rounds in the pouring rain when I was 14 or 15, it, like, it really put in a bit of resilience into me or, you know, like, I don't know, like,
• 7:09
  clearing up all the stock at the end of working at, you know, Sainsbury's when I was a 16 year old, like, all this stuff, it just kind of puts something in you that makes you think either I don't
• 7:17
  want to necessarily do this in 10, 20 years time, or just makes you, you know, grateful that you're able to earn money and, you know, kind of bring in money to support your family or whatever.
• 7:28
  Whatever it means.
• 7:29
  So, yeah, I think it's interesting looking back and just.
• 7:31
  Just seeing how it kind of all leads you to.
• 7:33
  To where you are now.
• 7:34
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:35
  And I think that's something I talk a lot of my clients about because sometimes they're almost ashamed that they have this career, either wedding business or pre wedding business.
• 7:43
  Like they just woke up one day and they've forever been a wedding photographer.
• 7:46
  But I'm always saying something, but, you know, you bring so many skills, you bring so much experience, and that's what makes you uniquely you.
• 7:53
  Because, you know, there's probably not loads of wedding photographers that have, you know, dressed up as a deer or been a driving instructor, but that's kind of what.
• 8:02
  That's what kind of brings the personality to the forefront, and that is what makes people uniquely them.
• 8:07
  And that's why I love starting the podcast by finding out about life pre wedding industry.
• 8:11
  But now we need to talk about the wedding industry.
• 8:13
  So you said that you did your first wedding as a photographer for a friend at church.
• 8:18
  So you just.
• 8:19
  I mean, they put a lot of trust in you.
• 8:20
  I guess they liked the photos.
• 8:23
  My portfolio was like pictures of my wife, like on.
• 8:28
  On a holiday, or pictures of, like, me, like our friends coming over, playing a board game or just, I don't know, like pictures of.
• 8:36
  Yeah, it's really, really random.
• 8:38
  My.
• 8:38
  My portfolio I showed them definitely wasn't a wedding portfolio, but they seemed to trust me.
• 8:42
  And y.
• 8:45
  If I was them, I wouldn't have trusted me.
• 8:47
  But I'm so pleased they did trust me because otherwise it wouldn't have ended up, you know, kind of being where I'm.
• 8:51
  Where I am now.
• 8:52
  So you did your first wedding where they trusted you blindly.
• 8:55
  Obviously they liked the photos.
• 8:56
  You then had a bit of a portfolio.
• 8:58
  Talk me through the next steps.
• 8:59
  At what point did you think I'd like to do this again?
• 9:02
  Did you start it as a business?
• 9:03
  Did you just keep doing it for other friends?
• 9:05
  Like, what was that transition like?
• 9:07
  Yeah, so it kind of went from.
• 9:09
  Well, I guess, like after that first wedding, like putting out pictures from that and, you know, kind of Particularly Facebook back in the day, that seemed to do quite well for me.
• 9:19
  You know, kind of my friends on Facebook would see it and then would start to recommend me and then friends of friends would get in touch.
• 9:25
  So it was like definitely in the beginning, it was like friendship circles and like people that I knew.
• 9:30
  I don't think I worked for anyone that I didn't really know within, you know, six or nine months of becoming a photographer.
• 9:37
  So, yeah, so like launching the business, bizarrely, like after about six months, I realized I needed to make it my full time job because we just had a baby, we just had Caleb, and in 2012 and my current
• 9:50
  job, I was, I was working with students at university, but that was, that was coming to an end.
• 9:54
  So I realized I needed to make it my full time job.
• 9:56
  So I did something that I definitely wouldn't do now, but I went to Groupon and I just asked if I could advertise with them.
• 10:03
  And basically what happened was I'm admitting all these things on this podcast, but okay.
• 10:09
  So, yeah, so I basically went to Groupon and they did this deal for me where if any couples were getting married over the course of the winter months, then they take half the money and I take half the
• 10:21
  money.
• 10:22
  But anyone who would be getting married outside the winter months, they come directly to me having seen me on Groupon.
• 10:29
  But it worked wonders for me because it basically just got my work out to hundreds and hundreds of engaged couples.
• 10:35
  And it's probably not something they'd ever admit to.
• 10:38
  Like, how did you find your wedding photographer on Groupon?
• 10:40
  It's not, probably not like the most glamorous of places, but it just, it opened the floodgates for me.
• 10:45
  So there was definitely a few weddings that I did that, you know, like, I don't know, people didn't really value the photography and the couples weren't my ideal couple.
• 10:53
  But actually, like, it was probably the best thing in the early days that I could have done for my business just because it got, you know, my photos in front of hundreds of different eyes.
• 11:01
  So, yeah, it snowballed from there.
• 11:02
  So in 2012, I think I photographed something like 25, 30 weddings, which, you know, for my, for my, you know, second year doing it, it was, it was incredible.
• 11:11
  So, yeah, that's, that's kind of how it works, kind of kicked on.
• 11:14
  And we appreciate your honesty because this podcast is all about finding out the real stories behind people.
• 11:18
  We are not about sugar coating things and pretending everything's glamorous.
• 11:22
  And I think there's a reality there that you needed some work, you needed a route to market.
• 11:27
  And at the time, and probably at the time, Groupon was bigger than it is now.
• 11:30
  I remember a phase where Groupon was like, everyone was talking about Groupon all the time.
• 11:34
  And although we may not recommend it, maybe now it's not the right way and maybe you probably worked for less than you were worth.
• 11:40
  Actually, it did its job and it, it gave you a platform.
• 11:43
  And sometimes we have to do the things that we have to do to bring in money, even if we, we don't think it's the perfect way.
• 11:51
  Actually, it is a way.
• 11:53
  How did you break free of that cycle, though?
• 11:54
  Because I can also see that could become kind of a cycle where you feel like you have to advertise to get those people and then you keep on getting the same kinds of people.
• 12:02
  So was there a time when you realized, okay, I can split away from this Groupon thing now.
• 12:08
  So I think for me, it was always the intention just to do it.
• 12:10
  My first year, my first year trading.
• 12:13
  So I, yeah, after I taken on, what would it be like, you know, kind of 10, 15 weddings through Groupon.
• 12:19
  And then probably, you know, 10, 15 couples came direct to me as a result of seeing me on Groupon.
• 12:24
  I'd been able to build up a portfolio.
• 12:26
  So my style from my first wedding has never changed.
• 12:29
  It's always to be capturing the moments.
• 12:31
  It's always like documentary style photography.
• 12:33
  So, like, for most people that might not appeal if they want more of like portraiture, if they want more post stuff.
• 12:40
  But for me, I knew what I wanted to do and so I wanted to try and get my work out, you know, to as many people as possible.
• 12:47
  And so Groupon served its purpose for, you know, a few months.
• 12:50
  And then after that I didn't, you know, advertise anymore with them.
• 12:54
  And I just did stuff on my own.
• 12:56
  And it's interesting, up to this date, I haven't really ever paid for advertising.
• 13:00
  In fact, I've never really paid for advertising which, which kind of shocks some people.
• 13:04
  But I think for me it was those first few months.
• 13:06
  And then afterwards, like, it'll be the natural.
• 13:09
  I mean, you know, referrals, recommendations.
• 13:11
  That's how really that's, that's, that's how I really like getting business.
• 13:16
  Because you have that, that you have that source of trust.
• 13:18
  So if a couple recommend you to another couple, then you're already, you know, entering that wedding with, you know, kind of, oh, you know, I've been recommended, say, like, you know, they Trust me, they, they know I'm not
• 13:29
  awful.
• 13:30
  They know, you know, I can do a half decent job.
• 13:32
  So yeah, that for me was like by Groupon after a few months.
• 13:36
  I think the thing is people really underestimate word of mouth.
• 13:39
  I talk about it a lot when I talk on stage about how actually it's the most powerful form of marketing and it doesn't seem like the most exciting form of marketing and I think sometimes neglect it.
• 13:49
  But ultimately people buy from people and people buy on recommendations and trust and especially in this industry when it's the biggest day of your life.
• 13:57
  You know, we joked earlier about your friends having you as their photographer based on your very limited portfolio, but honestly it's because they trusted you.
• 14:05
  They knew you as a person, you were friends with them.
• 14:07
  You know, they, they knew that you weren't going to let them down.
• 14:09
  If a complete random off the street turned up with that portfolio, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have booked them for their wedding day.
• 14:15
  But it just, it just emphasized that is, it's the trust element that's so important.
• 14:20
  And I think wedding professionals need to remember that.
• 14:23
  Going to networking events, going to open days, chatting with other photographers, being in the room with other suppliers, being a good person, building relationships is just as powerful as being on TikTok and Instagram and you know, paying to
• 14:37
  be in a magazine.
• 14:38
  So don't neglect it.
• 14:39
  And it sounds like a lot of your business has been built that way.
• 14:42
  Is that still the same?
• 14:43
  Now where would you say in 2026 when you look at your inquiries, where are people coming from?
• 14:49
  Most people find you word of mouth.
• 14:50
  Are they coming from venues?
• 14:51
  Are they coming from other sources?
• 14:53
  That's a good question.
• 14:54
  So I looked at this recently, so it would be, yeah, a third to half would be recommendations.
• 15:00
  So it'd be recommendations from past couples and people that have seen me in action at weddings and then also planners or venues.
• 15:08
  So that, that would account for, you know, like maybe let's say a quarter of, of my work.
• 15:14
  I don't particularly love going back to the same place loads.
• 15:17
  So I'll probably go back to the same venue maybe like once, maximum a year.
• 15:21
  I don't want to go.
• 15:22
  I find it a little bit creatively stifling if I'm always at the same place, so.
• 15:27
  So, yeah, so.
• 15:28
  But then a good proportion of my work also comes through Google and Instagram as well.
• 15:33
  I even got, I promised myself I'd Never go on TikTok, but I went on TikTok earlier on this Year and I haven't been doom scrolling.
• 15:41
  I haven't been, you know, kind of like addicted to the app or anything.
• 15:44
  I just kind of post when I need to post and then kind of duck away.
• 15:48
  But I got my first booking through an organic video on TikTok.
• 15:51
  So that's, that's pretty co as well.
• 15:53
  But, but yeah, it is mostly, it was mostly recommendations but then you know, like I, I think, yeah, Google's been very kind to my website over the years and you know, lots of kind of work on search engine
• 16:06
  optimization at the beginning and then yeah, it seems to, it seems to rank really well for like the, the keywords that I want it to.
• 16:13
  So happy with that.
• 16:14
  But, but yeah, I, I think the best inquiries that I get and the best leads that I get are always, oh, you, you shop, you know, my cousin's wedding or you shot my friend's wedding.
• 16:23
  We really like the thing.
• 16:26
  So therefore I, I don't know, like I, I quite like being busy as well.
• 16:29
  So like I don't like being too busy but I'll always do, you know, about 25 weddings a year.
• 16:34
  So if I keep that up, I know that, you know, like, I mean over the course of the years if I photographed what like 400, 450 weddings, I know that there's always going to be people out there who
• 16:43
  will recommend me.
• 16:44
  So like the more I do, the more referrals hopefully that I'll get.
• 16:48
  So hopefully I'll never need to pay for advertising.
• 16:50
  Yeah.
• 16:51
  And the thing is all these things work in tandem.
• 16:53
  We have a love hate relationship with Tick Tock on this podcast too because feel far too old to be on Tick Tock, but I know it's important and I am on Tick Tock.
• 17:00
  And also we know from the data that wedding couples are on TikTok and it's growing and more and more people are getting inquiries from there.
• 17:07
  But all this stuff works together because even if you're recommended, so a couple recommend you to another couple, they may go and check your website out.
• 17:14
  They probably go and look on TikTok, they probably go and look on Instagram and then they make their final decision.
• 17:18
  So it's kind of a big picture.
• 17:20
  People are everywhere.
• 17:22
  But there are so many organic ways to market your business in 2026 that actually very few people need to pay a lot of money on advertising unless they're trying to go for huge quantities.
• 17:32
  So people like venues maybe need to spend some more money on Google Ads.
• 17:35
  But actually if you have good foundations of SEO, good foundations in relationship building and a good presence on social media that sets you up quite well.
• 17:44
  And importantly, you're a good, nice person with good work.
• 17:47
  Because we know recommendations don't happen if we don't do a good job.
• 17:52
  Otherwise they're not going to recommend us on to anyone else.
• 17:54
  Pills.
• 17:56
  I think it's, I mean, like, I, I, I, I think I've come across people in, in the wedding industry who, I don't know, maybe, maybe like some, some dishonest like people and practices in the wedding industry.
• 18:11
  So I came across one person who, he booked his videographer for his wedding and then his videographer said a few weeks before the wedding, oh, I'm so sorry, I can't do it anymore, and gave like a reason, like
• 18:21
  a family, family reason or something like that.
• 18:23
  And then the person after his wedding saw that same videographer who was out in Italy for a wedding.
• 18:30
  And so it was obvious that they just passed on this UK wedding just to get the better one.
• 18:35
  And I, I think like, I don't know, like, I, I think dishonest tactics in the wedding industry, it will catch up with you.
• 18:41
  You'll be found out.
• 18:42
  This particular person's been found out by a couple of venues and they no longer recommend him.
• 18:48
  And so I think, like, I always think I want to treat people with kindness and I want treat people the way that I want to be treated myself.
• 18:56
  And yeah, like, I mean, I make mistakes sometimes.
• 18:59
  I get things wrong sometimes, you know, I don't say the right things or I don't, you know, you're dealing with people so sometimes, you know, you can't get everything right.
• 19:10
  But yeah, I'd like, I'd like to think if I'm, if I'm kind to people, if I'm nice to be around at a wedding day, then that will count for me.
• 19:18
  And then, yeah, I think, to be honest as well, there's a low bar to entry for wedding photographers, particularly at weddings because, like, I have couples come back to me afterwards and say, oh, Ollie, our guests loved you.
• 19:29
  They, you know, they got on so well with you and literally I just said hi to people or I'd just been like asking people how they were and people like guests couldn't believe it.
• 19:37
  Like, I don't know what kind of other photographers have been around at those weddings before, like, you know, kind of like a Hitler figure, like, you know, bossing everyone around or whatever.
• 19:45
  But I feel there's a low bar to entry for just, you know, kind of suppliers at weddings just being nice to People chatting to people, putting people at ease.
• 19:55
  And then you naturally.
• 19:56
  I think people will recommend you.
• 19:58
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:59
  And you say it's a low bar, but that's because a lot of people aren't doing these things.
• 20:02
  Which again, blows my mind because I always call it just basic being a good human.
• 20:06
  When you're basically a good human, you just chat to people, you're friendly to people, you're polite to people, you're honest with people.
• 20:12
  That should not stand out.
• 20:13
  That should be standard across the board.
• 20:15
  Yet it does stand out.
• 20:16
  And so actually you only have to do a little bit to give a lot.
• 20:20
  And the honesty thing's really interesting.
• 20:21
  I'm gonna tell you a story about something that happened to me recently.
• 20:24
  So I went to the spa for my wedding anniversary with my husband and we book this like hydro massage thing, right?
• 20:30
  It was a non person massage, it was a chair, it was very random.
• 20:34
  But that's not the point of the story.
• 20:35
  The point of the story is this.
• 20:36
  I had my time booked and I went out to speak to the lady on reception to get to go out and have my time that I booked for this massage.
• 20:44
  And ahead of me in the queue there was these two girls.
• 20:46
  And I could see them talking about having a massage, paying their money, sorting it all out in front of me.
• 20:51
  And she took them off to the room.
• 20:53
  So I'm sat there thinking there must be multiple of these massage chairs because I'm here waiting for my massage.
• 20:59
  And so she comes back and I say, said, oh, hello, what are you here for?
• 21:02
  Are you here to get a robe?
• 21:03
  I said, oh, no, I'm here for my massage at this time.
• 21:05
  And she just looked me straight in the eye and said, you're here at the wrong time.
• 21:09
  I said, I'm pretty sure I'm not here at the wrong time.
• 21:11
  I've got my piece of paper.
• 21:12
  Would you like me to go and get my piece of paper in the locker?
• 21:14
  I can show you.
• 21:15
  And she said, no, you're here at the wrong time.
• 21:17
  And I could see in her eyes, and I just said to her, straight to her face, which is very unlike me.
• 21:21
  I just said, is it that you accidentally sold those people my time?
• 21:25
  Because if it is, I'd much rather you were just honest about your mistake and said, I've made a mistake rather than telling me that, that I'm in the wrong.
• 21:32
  And she looked really sheepish and just went, yeah, that's what happened.
• 21:37
  And I thought, you know, when we're dishonest, it's so much worse.
• 21:41
  For business than when we're honest.
• 21:43
  It actually made me more frustrated that she'd lied to me.
• 21:45
  I mean, at least she came clean in the end and that I had to call her out on it.
• 21:48
  But ultimately we all make mistakes, we're human and sometimes we just have to be honest and say, I'm really sorry.
• 21:54
  Actually, I've had a bad day now.
• 21:56
  I have accidentally just sold that space.
• 21:58
  Is there anything I can do to make it better now?
• 22:00
  Unfortunately, what she did to make it better was go into that room, kick them out and then put me in there instead.
• 22:05
  Which also didn't feel like a great point of customer service.
• 22:08
  But I wasn't going to help her with her job any more than I'd already done.
• 22:11
  But, you know, honesty, you know, I think people think lying is going to get them out of a problem.
• 22:15
  But more times than not, lying makes it much worse because you get caught out in the end.
• 22:19
  You do, you do.
• 22:20
  Absolutely.
• 22:20
  I mean, even like this week I've had an incident like this.
• 22:24
  So normally like I'm, you know, king of the diary.
• 22:27
  I'm hyper organized.
• 22:29
  Like I never really like double booked myself or anything, but Kirsty, my wife and I, we, we had a night away planned but we hadn't booked anything quite yet.
• 22:38
  And I arranged a surprise proposal that I photograph sometimes in London, do this kind of thing.
• 22:45
  And I arranged that for Tuesday morning at 11 and the chap had booked me in and everything.
• 22:50
  And I excitedly went and told Kirsty, oh, I got a last minute, you know, booking for a surprise proposal.
• 22:55
  And she's like, oh, that's the morning that we're supposed to be going away but we haven't booked in yet.
• 22:59
  I was like, oh no, it's the only night of the year where both our kids are away.
• 23:03
  So son's away at youth camp and daughter was away a friend's sleepover.
• 23:07
  And I just had to go straight back to this guy and say, I'm so sorry.
• 23:11
  I'm not normally like this.
• 23:12
  I messed up, I double booked.
• 23:14
  Please could we do it in the afternoon instead?
• 23:16
  And he was so gracious and he was just like, yeah, absolutely, that's fine.
• 23:19
  Yeah, let's, let's go for 2 o' clock in the afternoon instead.
• 23:21
  So that gave me a few hours to be able to, you know, finish off the night away and, and, and then drive up to London.
• 23:28
  But you're so right, just like being honest from the offset because it's just, it's just going to catch up with you and it's just going to get worse and worse and worse.
• 23:35
  And I always remember watching had and like one lie that water like Walter White tells then kind of becomes like tons and tons and tons of lies.
• 23:45
  And like it ultimately leads to, you know, leads to really horrible situations.
• 23:49
  And it's just, yeah, like being honest, it's, it's so much better.
• 23:53
  Even though it can be hard at times.
• 23:55
  Like, you know, I hated that message I had to send to this guy.
• 23:57
  I'm so sorry.
• 23:58
  Like, you know, I shouldn't have done this particularly and I away with my wife like this.
• 24:02
  You know, that's the priority.
• 24:03
  But yeah, but it also makes you more human.
• 24:05
  Right.
• 24:06
  And he respected you for it.
• 24:07
  And fair play changed proposal so that you could do it another time.
• 24:11
  And he didn't have to do that either.
• 24:13
  Yeah, she said yes as well.
• 24:16
  Everyone was happy.
• 24:18
  Now I don't want it to sound like me and you are both these perfect humans because we know we absolutely are not.
• 24:23
  So I'd love you to share any mistakes maybe you've made along the way in your photography journey that might teach a newer person coming into the industry or kind of give them a heads up so they don't do
• 24:33
  the same thing.
• 24:33
  Is there anything that stands out where you think, oh yeah, this is a business mistake I made early on and I wouldn't recommend it.
• 24:38
  Yeah, I can think.
• 24:39
  1.
• 24:40
  So 2212, one of my first few weddings that I photographed and I this, this shows like the age of the, of the story.
• 24:50
  But I, I backed up the images as small version images onto a DVD and I also had them on my computer and my computer hard drive totally failed.
• 25:05
  And so all the big kind of uncompressed images, images that I should have been editing from, they all were deleted from my computer.
• 25:13
  And the wedding images I had were small little compressed versions that were much harder to edit on a random DVD somewhere.
• 25:21
  And what I should have done in the situation was to back up all the big versions so the RAW files onto my computer and then onto two different hard drives, like one in my house, one outside my house,
• 25:34
  just in case anything were to happen to my house.
• 25:36
  And so yeah, I had to edit their wedding off the these small files.
• 25:41
  In the end it worked out okay.
• 25:43
  But I've had situations with people that I've taught as well who just haven't backed up their images properly and they've deleted, you know, a whole wedding's worth of images.
• 25:53
  And that makes me feel sick to the core thinking about it.
• 25:57
  So I'm ruthless now.
• 25:58
  With.
• 25:59
  With backing up and making sure that I don't take any chances, even when I travel abroad.
• 26:03
  Like, I'm always backing up and I'm taking a little external hard drive around with me after the wedding.
• 26:09
  So, yeah, that was a mistake I made early.
• 26:11
  Early on.
• 26:12
  And obviously, you know, you can't mitigate a laptop suddenly dying, but you can back up the images in different forms, you know, like, as soon as you.
• 26:22
  As soon as you have access to them.
• 26:23
  So, yeah, big mistake I made early on, but learned a lot from it.
• 26:26
  Ollie, you're bringing back some past trauma for me with my own wedding, because my wedding, I had a friend video it who was not really a professional videographer.
• 26:34
  It's probably a bit like you in your early days when you photograph someone else's wedding.
• 26:37
  Wedding.
• 26:37
  But I had a video for my wedding, and they gave me the raw tapes.
• 26:43
  Not.
• 26:43
  I didn't realize that they hadn't backed them up.
• 26:45
  They literally gave me the raw tapes.
• 26:47
  They were in my car.
• 26:47
  My car got broken into and everything was stolen.
• 26:50
  And so there is no wedding video.
• 26:52
  Video from my wedding at all.
• 26:54
  In fact, my.
• 26:55
  My husband's uncle had the only footage there was of my wedding.
• 26:58
  And he very kindly said, oh, I filmed some home video footage of your wedding.
• 27:02
  And it was basically just his children with me in the background.
• 27:06
  You know, classic.
• 27:09
  Actually, maybe I would have been better never to have seen this.
• 27:11
  But, you know, these things happen.
• 27:13
  Like, it's a fact of life.
• 27:16
  But absolutely, if you are the photographer or videographer in charge, don't assume that it won't happen to you, because anything can happen.
• 27:23
  Like the chances of my car being broken into.
• 27:25
  My car's been broken into once in my entire lifetime, and it happened to be a day when my wedding video was in it.
• 27:31
  Like, what's the chances?
• 27:32
  But these things happen.
• 27:33
  We gotta back up.
• 27:34
  We've gotta make sure we mitigate as much as we.
• 27:37
  And if you're a thief and you broke into a car many years ago and you have Becca's wedding tapes, then hand them back, please.
• 27:43
  So thanks very much.
• 27:45
  Please.
• 27:45
  We put it in the local paper.
• 27:46
  And it's really funny because it was a time when local papers were really big, 2010, and there's just this picture of me and my husband looking sad, sat on the sofa, like, saying, you know, basically, like, our videos
• 27:57
  got sold if you found it.
• 27:59
  But, you know, it was so bad, this picture in the paper, that my friend contacted the paper, bought the photo, put it on a mug, and gave it to us for Christmas, just us looking really sad that we've
• 28:10
  lost our wedding video.
• 28:11
  So, you know, we got married about the same time.
• 28:14
  So Kirsty and I got married in 2009 and like.
• 28:17
  Oh, like everything has changed so much, like over the last 17 years.
• 28:22
  Like, we.
• 28:23
  There's very few things that we do, you know, the same as what we did in 2009, if we were to get married again.
• 28:28
  It's.
• 28:28
  It's interesting, isn't it?
• 28:29
  Yeah, it's very different.
• 28:30
  And also what's interesting is most of the things that happen at weddings now just didn't exist.
• 28:34
  I mean, making me sound really old.
• 28:36
  But people say to me, what did you have at your wedding?
• 28:38
  I'm like, food.
• 28:40
  There was no photo booth and there was no, you know, there was no exciting things.
• 28:43
  And actually I turned 40 this year and I keep joking with my husband.
• 28:46
  I'm having a party for my 40th and it's going to be like the wedding I didn't have, but without him, just.
• 28:52
  Just me with all of these supplies.
• 28:54
  But actually, I am grateful because having worked a decade in the wedding industry, if I got married now, it'd be so hard to choose who to have as a supplier for my wedding.
• 29:03
  I'd end up booking like 15 photographers, 20 cakes, 30 flowers, because I wouldn't be able to pick.
• 29:07
  So actually I'm grateful.
• 29:10
  Did it back in 2010 when most of these things didn't exist.
• 29:13
  Yeah, yeah.
• 29:14
  Now, you mentioned earlier about how you've done some destination weddings and I know there's a lot of people who'll be listening in all different aspects of the industry who kind of dream about having a destination wedding.
• 29:23
  It's on their bucket list.
• 29:24
  So I'd love to know, how did you get your first destination wedding?
• 29:28
  How do they come in and are they as good as they sound or not?
• 29:32
  Good question.
• 29:33
  So I'd photographed a wedding in the woods in Kent for John and Lily.
• 29:37
  And then I really got on well with them and their families and I really love Italy as a country and I taught English as a foreign language.
• 29:48
  It's one of my other jobs.
• 29:49
  In my early 20s, I taught English as a foreign language and ended up teaching loads of Italian youth and got really well with them and their teachers.
• 29:57
  So I went out to Italy to visit all of them and, yeah, just developed a real love for the, for the.
• 30:02
  For the country and even proposed to my wife in Venice.
• 30:05
  So Italy kind of carries a lot of memories for me and I really wanted to photograph away wedding in Italy, so I Just did this random shout out on Facebook.
• 30:14
  This was in 2016.
• 30:17
  And I just said, oh, you know, I'm a wedding photographer, I love Italy.
• 30:21
  If anyone's getting married in Italy and fancies, you know, kind of taking me out, then I'll just charge you UK rate plus a couple of hundred for flights, whatever, then please get in touch.
• 30:30
  And so Lily, this bride from this woodland wedding in Kent, realized that her sister Sophie was getting married and in Tuscany.
• 30:38
  And so she said, oh, Ollie's interested in photographing over in Italy.
• 30:42
  And Sophie's like, I never thought that he'd travel for weddings.
• 30:45
  Oh, that, that sounds amazing.
• 30:46
  She'd never seen any destination work on my website because I'd never had a destination wedding.
• 30:51
  So I kind of had to ask.
• 30:52
  And then Lily put Sophie in, in contact with me and then it seemed like, you know, star was aligned and, you know, I, I, I, yeah, she said yes, I said yes and went out there.
• 31:05
  I took my friend James with me, who I was kind of like had under my time and yeah, so like we, we just spent a lovely day in Tuscany.
• 31:14
  It was really, really hot.
• 31:15
  So it was, you know, kind of 35 degrees, like boiling hot.
• 31:18
  And for a redhead, that's, you know, that's hot.
• 31:21
  And it was so nice though, in the evening because we're in a, we're all kind of dancing in, in like this castle courtyard and then light rain started falling down and it was just, it was lush after such
• 31:31
  a hot day, after everyone was sweating so much.
• 31:33
  It was so nice just dancing in the, dancing in the rain.
• 31:37
  But then the funny thing was I actually had to, I had to lead a band at this student festival, this Christian student festival, the day after the wedding.
• 31:47
  So basically we flew back at 2am after the wedding.
• 31:51
  We got like an hour's sleep and then got back to Stansted at like, I don't know, like 4 or 5am and then I had to drive a good seven hours up to northern Wales to then plug in my
• 32:05
  guitar sound check.
• 32:06
  And then a few hours later, like, you know, lead, lead this conference.
• 32:11
  So it's the most bonkers.
• 32:12
  And I had like two really, really young kids and a wife who wasn't particularly impressed with my calendar management.
• 32:19
  But yeah, so, like it was a dream to work in Tuscany, but logistics were hard to arrange and I didn't plan as well as I could have done.
• 32:30
  But then again, like, the floodgates kind of opened from that.
• 32:34
  So another bridesmaid from a wedding that I'd shot in UK was getting married out in Serbia.
• 32:40
  And she was like, ollie, I didn't realize you did destination weddings until you put up that recent Tuscany wedding and would you come out to Belgrade with us?
• 32:46
  And I was like, yeah, I'd love to.
• 32:47
  So again, like another memory.
• 32:49
  So to be honest with destination weddings, for me, it's not a money earner because it's the same as what I'd get for UK weddings, plus my travel expenses.
• 32:58
  On paper I could, you know, work on a Saturday and a Friday in the UK and, and, and get more money than going out to a destination wedding.
• 33:05
  But for me it's the experience.
• 33:07
  And so I love them, but they are a lot more logistics and it's a lot more to kind of, you know, plan in and, and, and, and to kind of, you know, like mitigate for.
• 33:17
  But I think I've tried to actually make them like family experiences for us as well.
• 33:22
  So, like, I did a wedding in the French Alps a couple years ago and then took out my family with me and it gave Caleb an opportunity to pick up a camera and come on the hike with the
• 33:31
  bride and groom.
• 33:32
  That's really cool.
• 33:33
  Say like age 11 at the time he got his first taste of a wedding, which is beautiful, and he came out with some really good images.
• 33:39
  And then like last year took the family with me to Spain and then to Italy.
• 33:43
  And so, yeah, it's just kind of like working for me as a, as a dad, you know, as a husband, and then just being able to give my family some, you know, like, really enjoyable experiences, going to some
• 33:56
  places we wouldn't normally go to.
• 33:57
  So I think for me, yeah, I love them, but they have to kind of fit in around my life as well.
• 34:04
  And creatively, you said you don't like working in the same place too many times.
• 34:08
  So I guess creatively going to a different country, a different culture, a completely different place has got to be exciting for you.
• 34:14
  And there's, there's, you know, we always say we go self employed so we can have the freedom to make the business what we want it.
• 34:20
  Well, there's a great way that you can do that.
• 34:22
  Yes.
• 34:22
  You could do two UK weddings in the same hotel on the same weekend and make more money.
• 34:26
  But there is more to life than just making more money.
• 34:28
  Absolutely, absolutely.
• 34:30
  Like, I just, yeah, I'd far much rather like, you know, kind of work in different places, work for people that really get my style, work for people who, you know, feel invested in, you know, kind of what I
• 34:40
  do and who I am as a person.
• 34:42
  And likewise with me and you know, as a them, as a couple, I'd much rather do that than, you know, work myself to the, to the bone, getting more money and just living a slightly less fulfilled life.
• 34:54
  Yeah.
• 34:55
  So I think for me it's like quality of life and enjoyment in what I do and getting to see new places like those are, those are real wins.
• 35:03
  Now, you mentioned Caleb just now, and I actually talked about him very briefly on a podcast recently.
• 35:09
  You don't know about this, but I recorded a podcast recently about how to survive the summer holidays as a wedding business owner.
• 35:16
  And I talked about all different ways to survive the summer holidays.
• 35:18
  And one of the things I talked about that I'm quite big on is getting your kids involved in the business.
• 35:22
  And I talked about the way I've done that and then I mentioned how I'd seen you done that with your son and being a photographer and getting him involved in photography.
• 35:31
  So now I've got you here.
• 35:33
  I wanted to ask you a bit more about that because I A very kind of generic example of what I'd seen on Instagram.
• 35:38
  But now you're here, you can talk to us about it.
• 35:40
  So what inspired you to get Caleb involved in the photography?
• 35:44
  Or was it led by him?
• 35:46
  And how is that kind of working?
• 35:47
  Because you do talk about it quite openly on, I think on your website and definitely on your social media.
• 35:52
  Yeah.
• 35:52
  So like passion side with him.
• 35:55
  So he loved picking up a camera, he loved photographing.
• 35:58
  He got really into birds of prey during lockdown.
• 36:01
  I think it was like boredom of being homeschooled, looking out the window.
• 36:04
  We live in the countryside.
• 36:05
  Birds of prey circle and frequent the area.
• 36:08
  So he was really, he was really into that.
• 36:11
  And he, like tried out my camera, took some really nice photos of some peregrine falcons down the David Cliffs.
• 36:20
  And then we bought him his first camera one Christmas.
• 36:23
  It's like an entry level Canon camera.
• 36:26
  And yeah, he was, he was really, really taken by it.
• 36:29
  And then, um, Del and Winnie, who booked me to do their, um, wedding in Chamonix in the French Alps, they, um, they knew that he was really into photograph and they said, oh, you know, maybe not to the
• 36:40
  whole wedding, but does he want to come on the hike with us?
• 36:42
  And I was like, yeah, yeah, it'd be great.
• 36:44
  Yeah.
• 36:44
  So that basically gave him his first experience of a wedding day.
• 36:47
  I was like, hey, always make sure that you're kind of walking with me rather than the other side of the couple, just so we're able to get shots without you in all the photos.
• 36:54
  And also, like, just be really nice to the bride and groom and like, you know, kind of smile and like, ask them questions and be interested in them, I think.
• 37:01
  Cause he's grown up in a church, he's used to, like, being able to talk to adults.
• 37:04
  So I think that's, that's good.
• 37:07
  And like, he really thrived in that environment.
• 37:09
  Although one thing which I haven't really, you know, talked about publicly, he.
• 37:15
  He accidentally left their car door open and they didn't check all the doors.
• 37:20
  And Winnie's phone and my camera gear was in the boot and it was left unlocked for an hour and a half on this hike.
• 37:26
  And thankfully it was.
• 37:27
  Nothing was taken.
• 37:28
  But we came back and the door was unlocked and wide open.
• 37:31
  And we're like, how did this happen?
• 37:33
  And.
• 37:33
  And we were like, oh, it must have been, you know, kind of one of us that just didn't think about it.
• 37:37
  But then as I was going back through the photos, when we got back to the uk, flicking through the photos, I, I.
• 37:43
  And so like, as the couple were getting out the car, I could see Caleb getting out of the back of the car, leaving the door open, then walking around like, Caleb, I got you busted.
• 37:50
  It was you.
• 37:51
  So I think that's the only thing.
• 37:52
  That's such a classic child thing to do as well, to just walk into, walk away with the car door wide open.
• 37:58
  So funny.
• 37:58
  He never normally does it in the uk, but.
• 38:00
  But yeah, so like, that kind of reminded me that, you know, it's really fun to take him to weddings, but also I do have to still be dad and I still have to like, you know, tell him what
• 38:08
  to do.
• 38:08
  And like, his first proper experience of a full wedding day was last summer and it was in Umbria in Italy.
• 38:13
  We were there on hol day.
• 38:14
  I did two weddings, bizarrely back to back, half an hour away from each other in Umbria.
• 38:18
  It was really strange, but he came to the second day and it was 38 degrees, really, really hot.
• 38:23
  He's a, he's a blondie, very pale skin.
• 38:25
  Had to keep on telling him to get in the shade and to drink lots of water.
• 38:29
  And it was his favorite day ever because he got to drink four Coca Colas as well.
• 38:33
  So he was, he was well happy with that.
• 38:35
  But, but yeah, he just, he mingled with people.
• 38:37
  He took some images that I would actually be proud to have taken.
• 38:41
  And one image in particular with bride and groom walking up towards the wedding break, taken from like a window of the castle high up above.
• 38:49
  And then with everyone swirling their napkins in the air with like the hills of Umbria in the background.
• 38:54
  And it, for me, it's just like a perfect photo taken in fully manual mode on the camera using all manual settings.
• 39:00
  And I was so proud of him.
• 39:02
  And I was like, Caleb, honestly, this image I would have as my website homepage first image, I love it that much.
• 39:08
  And he was 12 at the time and like, he took that and I'm incredibly proud of him.
• 39:11
  And people are now, you know, kind of booking him in to photograph at their wedding.
• 39:16
  So I teach about four or five people a year.
• 39:18
  But next year in 2027, he's already down for like five weddings with me, so it's amazing.
• 39:24
  So he's like my, you know, the most popular person that I'm training.
• 39:28
  And he's always like, dad, can you give me some, you know, money for, you know, for, for, you know, kind of coming to weddings with you?
• 39:33
  And I was like, I'll give you kind of little gifts or lenses like every now and again, Caleb.
• 39:37
  But, you know, most people that I teach and take under my wing, they pay me.
• 39:40
  So actually you're getting a good deal here.
• 39:42
  You're getting your education for.
• 39:45
  But he's, he's a great, he's a great little chap.
• 39:47
  I love that.
• 39:47
  And I think it's just, it's just so wholesome that you've got him involved and I love that people have bought into it and, you know, let's just be clear, they're choosing to book him for, to come along to
• 39:56
  their wedding.
• 39:57
  You're not just randomly taking your child along for the day.
• 39:59
  They are actively saying, actively choosing.
• 40:01
  We would, we'd love to have him along as the second shooter.
• 40:04
  And I think it's so fantastic.
• 40:06
  And he'll be learning so much from that.
• 40:09
  And again, just the experience he's getting.
• 40:11
  And, you know, we talked earlier about how at school, you know, there's no, like, oh, you can go into the wedding industry.
• 40:15
  You feel like, got to be a doctor or an engineer, but actually you're showing him a different way.
• 40:20
  And that's what I'm trying to show my kids all the time, whatever they decide to do.
• 40:23
  Yeah.
• 40:23
  That there is all sorts of things you can do.
• 40:25
  You can, you can do what you love and make money from it.
• 40:28
  You can, you know, there's all sorts of different paths and there's not just one size fits all for everyone.
• 40:33
  I think.
• 40:33
  Yeah, you raise a really good point because I, I think, like, my big message to my kids is I, I don't want you necessarily to be like, you know, millionaire, earning tons of money.
• 40:43
  I, I just want you to be happy and fulfilled in what you're doing and you feel like you're making a difference people's lives.
• 40:48
  And sometimes I think people can look at something like wedding photography and think it's, you know, it's a bit fake, it's a bit vacuous, it doesn't really have any meaning.
• 40:56
  But when I went around to my neighbor's house, she's Betty, she's 91 and she still has a photograph of her and her husband from their wedding day.
• 41:03
  He's, he's, he's, you know, he, he died a couple of decades ago.
• 41:07
  But like she still has this photo.
• 41:09
  And then for me I was like, oh man, what I do is significant and meaningful because you're able to preserve these memories of like, you know, one of, one of the most special days to people.
• 41:18
  And like, if I'm able to do that and able to bring joy to people, yes, in the moment that they see the photo, but then actually the photo will have even more meaning, you know, if people pass away
• 41:27
  and you know, kind of, you know, do you know what I mean?
• 41:30
  So like, I, I think, I think, yeah, like just seeing significance and meaning in what you do.
• 41:36
  It's funny, I went into Caleb's school a couple of times, his secondary school a couple of times over the last year to like just do like a lunchtime workshop.
• 41:43
  And my main message was you can make a successful, successful career in the creative arts.
• 41:50
  And you know, like, you don't have to, you don't have to, you don't have to try and change like your passions or your interests.
• 42:01
  Like, because I mean like, I love natural moments.
• 42:04
  I love like street style photography.
• 42:07
  I love like bit rough around the edges, not totally polished.
• 42:12
  I love that style and I've tried to bring that style into my wedding photography.
• 42:16
  I don't want everything to be polished and perfect and photoshopped and everything.
• 42:20
  I want it to be raw and organic and, you know, kind of a little bit rough around the edges.
• 42:25
  And so I think for me, if I, if my taste and my style, I've been able to make a success of that in, you know, wedding photography for 15 years.
• 42:33
  Like, you know, a kid who's really into like writing but writing in a slightly different way, or a kid who's a musician but they really love, you know, playing jazz, you know, rather than, you know, the pop music,
• 42:43
  like you can make a career out of the creative arts and not have to compromise.
• 42:46
  So I think that's my, my big message to him, like, do what you do and try and make it a career out of it.
• 42:51
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 42:52
  And realize that that can be a proper business.
• 42:54
  I think sometimes, you know, even people listening almost feel like a fraud because they enjoy what they do and so they feel like, well, it can't be a proper job because I really enjoy taking photos.
• 43:02
  But it absolutely.
• 43:03
  Like there's no rule book that says you can't enjoy what you do every day.
• 43:06
  You absolutely can.
• 43:07
  You can.
• 43:07
  Now I'm going to take a left turn here, Ollie, because there's one thing that we haven't really talked about yet and I feel like we've kind of got this previous connection from a life gone by.
• 43:17
  Because you mentioned a few times in this episode about how you worked for your church for, and you led worship and you're a Christian.
• 43:24
  And I too am a Christian and every year I used to go to this big conference up in Wales and there you were on the stage singing and leading worship.
• 43:32
  And I feel like I probably have CDs that we still listen to in our car of you singing and playing guitar.
• 43:39
  And now here we are again meeting our world's colliding in the wedding industry.
• 43:43
  So I'd love to know, with your faith as a Christian, is there parts of that that you think kind of influence the way you run your business or just that experience you've had in the past?
• 43:53
  How do you, your faith and your business intersect?
• 43:57
  Great question.
• 43:57
  So, yeah, I, I mean, I love, I love to be able to like, pray in the build up to weddings.
• 44:07
  Like pray that my couples would, you know, be full of peace and full of joy in their wedding days.
• 44:13
  And I think sometimes as well, if, if I'm working for a couple and if they, you know, get married in a church and if they've got some kind of link with, with faith, maybe they wouldn't say they're professing
• 44:22
  Christians themselves.
• 44:22
  Like sometimes I just say to them, oh, you know, can I just pray a prayer blessing for you guys over your marriage?
• 44:28
  And you know, they've never said no.
• 44:32
  So it's nice just being able to sometimes even like, yeah, share, share my faith with, with couples.
• 44:38
  Generally, I'll let them ask me.
• 44:40
  But I remember one time a couple came to see me and they were getting married in a church and they just started going to this church because of their wedding bands that needed to be read and they said,
• 44:50
  ollie, you're a Christian, right?
• 44:51
  And I was like, yeah, yeah.
• 44:52
  And they were like, we're trying to decide on, like, what Bible I read at the wedding.
• 44:56
  Can you help us?
• 44:57
  And so there's me and, you know, like, Dan and Sarah from 2017.
• 45:02
  And we were just sat out in my garden and we just had the Bible open.
• 45:06
  I was just, you know, kind of sharing with them what this means or what that means, that kind of thing.
• 45:10
  So it's interesting how it.
• 45:11
  How it, you know, kind of comes about sometimes or even at some weddings.
• 45:15
  I did a wedding at Canterbury Cathedral a few years ago, and there was a couple that came up to me and we were like, oh, we recognize you.
• 45:21
  We didn't realize that you did this because we saw you leading worship at Keswick up in the Lake District.
• 45:26
  And I was, oh, cool.
• 45:28
  You know, it's funny how, like, you know, kind of.
• 45:30
  Yeah.
• 45:30
  As you say, like, different worlds collide a little bit, but I think, yeah, so I'll.
• 45:36
  I'll, you know, kind of pray for the couples I work for either, you know, kind of, I guess, you know, kind of in the lead up to the wedding or actually, you know, on the wedding day itself.
• 45:46
  And I'll, again, it comes.
• 45:49
  It comes back to kind of kindness as well.
• 45:51
  And I think, yeah, like, showing Jesus through the way that I would interact with people and just trying to show them, like, the love of God and the kindness of God in the way that I talk, in the
• 46:04
  way that I act, in the way that I try and show respect to people.
• 46:08
  Try and you know, kind of, you know, kind of like everyone, if they've been made in the image of God, has dignity and meaning and, yeah, I just want to show that kind of stuff to people.
• 46:20
  So, yeah, I think that's kind of how it affects the way that I work.
• 46:25
  I guess also, as we touched on before, like, honesty and transparency as well, in the way that I kind of.
• 46:33
  Yeah, like, use my finances in the way that I, you know, kind of quote for weddings.
• 46:38
  And, you know, like, I know lots of people would.
• 46:42
  Would kind of go back to a couple who've inquired saying, oh, I've just got another inquiry.
• 46:46
  Would you book now?
• 46:47
  But, like, I just.
• 46:48
  I never.
• 46:48
  I never do that.
• 46:49
  I never want to.
• 46:51
  To lie to people.
• 46:52
  So, yeah, those kind of ways, I think.
• 46:54
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 46:55
  It's interesting, actually, going full circle back to my Deal or no Deal moment.
• 46:58
  You made me think of another moment.
• 46:59
  I had a guy that I worked with at Deal or no Deal, and it pops up as my Facebook memory the other day, because, you Know, quite often marriage does suddenly bring up kind of conversations about religion and
• 47:10
  Christianity because they were getting married in their local church, they didn't ever go to their local church.
• 47:14
  And I remember him coming to me on a lunch break one day and saying, becca, can you pick the songs for our wedding?
• 47:18
  Because we don't know what songs people sing in church.
• 47:20
  And I was like, sure.
• 47:21
  I mean, I don't know, you know, do you want, like, Sunday school songs?
• 47:24
  Do you want the kind of song songs that I would sing at church?
• 47:26
  Anyway, we came up with this list and I went along to the wedding and I had the best time singing all of these songs because.
• 47:33
  And again, it was just interesting, isn't it?
• 47:35
  Because they, they had this idea they wanted to get married in the church, but they actually, you know, the formalities.
• 47:40
  And I think sometimes churches get a lot of negativity, particularly from photographers.
• 47:44
  And, you know, like, all aspects of weddings, there's going to be, you're going to have good experiences and bad experiences.
• 47:50
  And we've all heard of photographers that go to a church and the vicar's rude to them or, you know, they don't.
• 47:56
  Yeah, you know, it happens.
• 47:59
  But, you know, that happens in venues.
• 48:00
  That happens everywhere.
• 48:02
  And I think sometimes we can kind of tarnish everyone with the same brush.
• 48:06
  Now they say that there's two things you shouldn't talk about, which is religion and politics.
• 48:09
  So let's, let's do both on this podcast, because you told me you study politics.
• 48:14
  So very briefly.
• 48:15
  The other thing I'm flying the flag for at the moment is they've obviously recently announced about the marriage reform laws and how they're looking at changing marriage.
• 48:23
  And there is some, some stuff that people say that religious people or Christian people are really against the marriage reform.
• 48:31
  Well, I'm actually quite pro the marriage reform.
• 48:33
  I think it's actually really exciting because I think for a long time as a Christian, you could only get married in a church, and now you potentially could have a Christian wedding on a football pitch.
• 48:42
  You could have it on the beach.
• 48:44
  And I think that opens up a huge amount of different opportunities.
• 48:48
  So I'd love to know if you're also flying this kind of positive message, message or not, for marriage reform, because as Christians, I want to say we're not all against marriage reform, because I'm quite, I'm quite open to
• 48:59
  the conversation.
• 48:59
  I'm excited to see what happens next.
• 49:01
  Yeah, yeah, I, I, yeah, I love it.
• 49:03
  I think, I mean, to be honest, like our church in Canterbury, we don't meet in a church building, we meet in a school hall.
• 49:09
  So when Kirsty and I got married, we didn't want to get married in a, in a school hall.
• 49:12
  We, we wanted to get married in like a you know, little, little church down, down the road.
• 49:16
  But I think if the marital reform had come in before we got married like we'd have been well up for a field wedding or like a festival style wedding or like a beach wedding or something like that.
• 49:28
  And I think it's, it's.
• 49:29
  I mean the laws at the moment having you know, the couple have to stand under a solid permanent structure like a.
• 49:36
  For photography.
• 49:37
  That's a bit rubbish anyway because they're in the dark and everyone's in the light if it's an outdoor wedding.
• 49:41
  But then like just thinking about the possibilities now of you know like a.
• 49:45
  Yeah, a festival around hay bales in a field or you know, kind of wedding in the woods, things like that.
• 49:50
  I think it's.
• 49:52
  Yeah, I think it's so, so much better.
• 49:54
  And, and it also then typically when a couple would get married, you know, kind of freely in a field or on a beach or something, they'd have to have their official, you know, kind of like registrar led ceremony
• 50:05
  a couple of days beforehand.
• 50:07
  Extra expense, extra faf.
• 50:08
  That kind of thing.
• 50:09
  And now you know, if this is, if this will go through and when it comes in you won't need that and you just kind of have the, have the one day.
• 50:17
  So I, I think I'm.
• 50:18
  Yeah, I'm definitely pro and I think as well I, I don't like, I'm not a big fan of like, I don't know, convey about wedding venues that like cookie cutter approach.
• 50:27
  Like every day they'll have, you know, different couple.
• 50:29
  They forget the couple, you know, from the day before the next day.
• 50:33
  And I, I just think if it you know, takes away from that cookie cutter approach and makes it more kind of organic and you know, people can get married wherever they like.
• 50:41
  I like the idea.
• 50:42
  Yeah.
• 50:43
  And it absolutely brings in so many more opportunities particularly for people who are from different religions and they're marrying each other, different cultures or people who just want to bring in different elements.
• 50:52
  I mean I often talk about my sister's wedding so she's not religious in any way, shape or form and she had a celebrant led wedding because she wanted my grandparents to be able to say a prayer, a blessing
• 51:04
  over her wedding and a registrar, she just wasn't allowed to do that.
• 51:07
  That wasn't even a thing.
• 51:08
  That she could possibly do.
• 51:10
  And so, again, you know, people want to bring in different elements of the day.
• 51:13
  Maybe they want to have a song that they remember from their childhood playing at the wedding, and they currently can't.
• 51:18
  So I'm interested to see where it goes.
• 51:20
  I think more of us need to be getting involved in form and making our views known.
• 51:25
  But again, I just want to repeat that message because I think sometimes we can target groups of any kind with a brush.
• 51:30
  And actually there's so much nuance and we need to kind of understand everyone's different perspectives rather than saying these people are against this and these people are for this, because actually it's very, very different when you have the
• 51:41
  conversation.
• 51:43
  Okay, we're going to take another left turn.
• 51:44
  We're going left turning all over this podcast.
• 51:47
  But before I let you go, there's one more thing I want to talk to you about, because in the spirit of your constant creativity and entrepreneurship, as well as being a wedding photograph you mentioned earlier, you now also
• 51:57
  educate as well.
• 51:58
  So I believe you have a podcast.
• 51:59
  I think you do some education under the name Framed.
• 52:02
  And if I've got that right, is with a couple of other photographers as well.
• 52:05
  Yeah, that's it.
• 52:05
  Yeah, so with James Richards and Ollie Baines.
• 52:08
  And, yeah, I taught them both kind of in there in their, like, in their early days as wedding photographers.
• 52:14
  And then, yeah, like, bit of a band of brothers who just.
• 52:17
  We, yeah, we love teaching other people.
• 52:19
  We love doing our podcast.
• 52:22
  And yeah, for like a small niche podcast, so we basically just, you know, we reach other wedding photographers.
• 52:30
  We had our 10,000th play on Spotify the other day, so we're really happy with that.
• 52:34
  So it's kind of like a small.
• 52:35
  In the world of podcasts, you know, kind of Diary of a CEO, it won't really compete with, but it's.
• 52:42
  Yeah, for us, we were really happy with that.
• 52:44
  So.
• 52:44
  So, yeah, so we started Framed a couple of years ago and we run things like photography courses, workshops.
• 52:51
  I sell my.
• 52:52
  My presets for kind of lightrooms.
• 52:56
  They, like, people can have the same colors as me and their work.
• 53:00
  And.
• 53:00
  And yeah, we use it.
• 53:01
  We use frames also for, like, gathering other photographers once a year for a big Christmas party in Canterbury.
• 53:08
  And, yeah, and.
• 53:10
  And mentoring, I think, would be the main thing that we do.
• 53:12
  So, you know, I take on four or five people each year, just, I guess, just like pour myself out into them just to be able to say, come to weddings with me.
• 53:21
  I'll train you.
• 53:22
  I'll try.
• 53:23
  And you Know, kind of, yeah, show you how I work, you know, no, no questions, off limits.
• 53:28
  And then just, yeah, involved him in my life a little bit and, and it's been wonderful to see where people have gone with it.
• 53:35
  So, like, guy called Tom, who I'm seeing in a little bit from 2022, and he's gone on to get runner up at the Wedding Industry Awards for the Southeast a couple of years back, and he's picked up some
• 53:50
  awards for his work and he's doing so well full time, you know, now with photography, booking out his calendar and a lady called Becky Wiles from last year.
• 53:58
  So it's like, fantastic, creative.
• 54:02
  Like, she really inspires me with her work.
• 54:04
  And she was a teacher for 17 years.
• 54:06
  She really, like, you know, kind of loved the kids, but just, just, I don't know, got a bit, like, bogged down all the admin and all the red tape and everything.
• 54:14
  Just wanted to pursue a career in the creative arts and came to me and then I taught her and then she's now full time with her photography and she's again, like, winning awards and doing so well and it's
• 54:25
  just, it's wonderful to see.
• 54:26
  So, yeah, love, love training, love teaching.
• 54:29
  And framed, I think, for me is a perfect little addition to the wedding photograph.
• 54:34
  I love it.
• 54:34
  And why do you think it's important for wedding professionals to.
• 54:37
  To further their education?
• 54:38
  Why do you think education matters?
• 54:40
  Why.
• 54:41
  Why are you kind of putting it out there?
• 54:43
  What do you think people benefit from?
• 54:45
  Yeah, so I think every year I'll always try and learn.
• 54:49
  I'll always try and go to something else, like a workshop or a conference or something like that, just to learn.
• 54:54
  So I think, you know, like, no matter how far we get in our, in our lanes, I.
• 54:59
  I think there's always things that we can learn from others.
• 55:02
  So, yeah, like, I mean, the last few years, amazing.
• 55:06
  I've had good success in the, in the industry, but I always want to be a person who's wanting to, like, oh, I could do this a bit better or maybe I could change this and refine this.
• 55:15
  So I think there's always scope for us learning and I think if we feel that we've, you know, reached, you know, kind of where we can be and reached a glass ceiling, I think we need to, yeah, go
• 55:25
  away and actually think, yeah, how can I push myself and how can I, how can I learn from others?
• 55:29
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 55:30
  There's always, always, always more to learn.
• 55:33
  Ollie, I could chat to you all day.
• 55:34
  We've had such a Great conversation.
• 55:36
  I've loved hearing you about your business, but I always end the podcast with the same question.
• 55:40
  So I'm going to pose that to you now.
• 55:42
  And it's this.
• 55:42
  What's one thing you personally wish you'd known sooner in your own business?
• 55:50
  Yeah, it's a really good question.
• 55:52
  I think in the early days I think I was very keen just to, you know, get more work.
• 55:59
  And I think there's some times I compromised.
• 56:03
  My style has always been documentary, it's always been hands off, it's always been very unpaid.
• 56:07
  But there's some times where I just compromised and I was just like, oh, you give the people what they want.
• 56:12
  You know, loads of couple time images of, you know, couples walking through fields and stuff.
• 56:17
  And it just doesn't really do much for me now.
• 56:20
  And to be honest, it didn't really do much for me then.
• 56:22
  And so I think if I was to go back and do it all again, I would just double down on my style and not feel that I needed to put stuff out into social media or my website that
• 56:34
  would, you know, kind of try and entice all, all these, you know, kind of couples in fields kind of photos, but actually just, you know, go for the raw, go for the unscripted, go for the moments.
• 56:43
  So I think, yeah, it's quite niche for me as a wedding photographer, but I think that would be the thing that I'd change if I was to go back.
• 56:49
  Fantastic.
• 56:49
  And it's okay to be niche with the podcast, with the photography.
• 56:52
  When you only want 25 weddings a year, you don't need to be anything but niche.
• 56:56
  Exactly, exactly.
• 56:57
  That's what I think.
• 56:58
  Like if there's 25 couples each year that like my work and the whole of the rest of the world hates my work, that's fine.
• 57:05
  Exactly.
• 57:05
  And I think sometimes people get bogged down in the numbers they get.
• 57:08
  They start thinking about going viral on Instagram.
• 57:10
  But ultimately Most people need 20 to 50 weddings a year out of all the weddings that are happening across the world.
• 57:17
  And so actually you can definitely afford to be unapologetically you and to be niche and to say no.
• 57:22
  Sometimes if it doesn't fit around you, around work, around family, you can say no, it's not going to be the end of your business.
• 57:28
  Ollie, this has been such a great conversation.
• 57:30
  If people want to find out more about you, about framed, where are the best places for them to connect with you?
• 57:35
  Yeah, website, ollienightphotography or framed on Instagram now on TikTok.
• 57:44
  But yeah, I think Instagram and website would be the main places that I'd hang out.
• 57:48
  So, yeah, love to hear from you.
• 57:49
  Fantastic.
• 57:50
  And I'm sure you're more than happy to chat with people if they've got thoughts on the episode, if they've got things they want to chat to you.
• 57:54
  Probably Instagram DMs is a good place to reach you.
• 57:58
  Or TikTok if they want to go.
• 57:59
  To the dark side.
• 58:02
  Ollie, thank you so much for your time.
• 58:04
  It's been brilliant.
• 58:05
  Appreciate it.
• 58:06
  What a great episode with Ollie.
• 58:08
  I really enjoyed talking to him, all about his business, his background, his faith and all the other things that makes up his day and his business.
• 58:16
  And I'm excited to see what he does next.
• 58:18
  I'm excited to see how Framed grows.
• 58:20
  So if you want to find out more about him, about his business and about Framed and what they're doing over there, I'll make sure I put all of the information in the show notes and I'll see you all
• 58:29
  next time.