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Egregore- Sarah Janes and Anthony Peake Roundtable (Pd Newman/Ike Baker/Peter Mark Adams)) · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What what's going to happen?
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: What?
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  Speaker 1: I don't know. I have good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Wherever you all are, thank you very much for joining
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: us today. I am joining you from Istanbul. I'm in
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: my favorite little hotel room I've got a good deal
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: with And I was discussing with Anthony Peak, who is
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: obviously here somewhere, but now there's loads of faces. So
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: there's Anthony, there's Anthony. So Anthony and I were discussing
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  Speaker 1: the concept of the eggragre and how pertinent it is
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  Speaker 1: right now. And those of you who don't know Anthony,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Anthony's written lots of books and we were hosting co
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  Speaker 1: I was helping him on his podcast Consciousness Hour for
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  Speaker 1: three years. So Anthony has written a lot about the
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  Speaker 1: idea of the agragor, and I just thought it was
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  Speaker 1: a apt subject to discuss now, given the kind of
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  Speaker 1: wild climate we find ourselves in. So, Anthony, do you
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  Speaker 1: want to kick us off?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah?
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  Speaker 5: Absolutely, I mean, the concept of the agragor has fascinated
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  Speaker 5: me for oh so many years, and it was interesting
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  Speaker 5: basically talking about the esoteric traditions. I mean, Israel, Regaudi
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  Speaker 5: and various other individuals, because many years ago I was
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  Speaker 5: invited to speak at an event of the Servants of
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  Speaker 5: the Light, which some of you may be were of,
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  Speaker 5: which is I think the world's largest Western esoteric tradition group,
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  Speaker 5: and I was fascinated by their work, And indeed, it's
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  Speaker 5: very sad to hear that recently Baroness Ashcroft Nowiki, who
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  Speaker 5: was the main lady in that organization, sadly died, which
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  Speaker 5: I thought was very very sad. So in many ways
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  Speaker 5: I'd like to probably say that this is in honor
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  Speaker 5: of Diane of Baroness Ashcroft Nowiki if nobody else as
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  Speaker 5: well Dolores as we affectionately called her. But basically my
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  Speaker 5: point of view, Ah, hello Danny, Hi, so yes, So
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  Speaker 5: going back to what I was actually discussing before, right,
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  Speaker 5: just hold on, have we.
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  Speaker 1: No? I think we're all right?
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  Speaker 5: Oh good, good, good good. Is the way Danny just
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  Speaker 5: came bouncing in from nowhere.
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  Speaker 1: Which is a disruptor. He likes doing that.
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  Speaker 5: He's an eggregorial presence in the most positive sense. But
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  Speaker 5: my interest in Aggregor's has been over many, many years
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  Speaker 5: because and as you as I know, when we've been
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  Speaker 5: interviewing people over the years. It seems to me that
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  Speaker 5: there's a direct relationship between our encounters of non human
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  Speaker 5: intelligences and our own anticipations of what they're likely to be.
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  Speaker 5: And I'm particularly interested in referring to the case of
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  Speaker 5: the Phillip case in the early nineteen seventies in Toronto,
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  Speaker 5: when a group of academics created basically a ghost, and
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  Speaker 5: that ghost then started manipulating their world and it seemed
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  Speaker 5: to become independent of them. Now, from this, I'd like
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  Speaker 5: to point out that we can apply quantum mechanics to this,
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  Speaker 5: and we can apply neurology to it, because we know
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  Speaker 5: from quantum mechanics that effectively, subatomic particles, until they are
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  Speaker 5: measured or observed in raised commas, they only exist in
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  Speaker 5: statistical format. They only exist as a probability of occurring
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  Speaker 5: in one lotion or another, and it's only when they
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  Speaker 5: are measured that that subatomic part of collapses down into
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  Speaker 5: a point particle. Now, effectively, this suggests that everything that
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  Speaker 5: we consider to be the observable world is influenced by us.
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  Speaker 5: It's influenced by our anticipations of what it's likely to be.
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  Speaker 5: So it comes to no surprise that throughout history when
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  Speaker 5: we have eggregorial encounters, and I'm talking about eggregors in
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  Speaker 5: it its kind of accepted sense in that one can
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  Speaker 5: argue that an aggregre is any symbol, Coca Cola is
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  Speaker 5: an eggrigorre, Nazism, Communism, these are all eggregors of one
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  Speaker 5: description or another, and our anticipations of these things seem
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  Speaker 5: to bring them into existence. And I'll give the classic
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  Speaker 5: example of the sun spinning in the sky at Fatima
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  Speaker 5: in what nineteen seventeen, when thousands of people witnessed an
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  Speaker 5: event in the sky that clearly was not observed outside
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  Speaker 5: of that group, because had the sun spun in the sky,
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  Speaker 5: the of the world would have seen it, but they didn't.
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  Speaker 5: But collectively, these individuals did see it because they were
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  Speaker 5: anticipating it and creating all what I would call collapsing
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  Speaker 5: the wave function of their belief systems. Now, this does
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  Speaker 5: not mean that these entities aren't independent of us. I
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  Speaker 5: would argue that these entities actually use our anticipations of
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  Speaker 5: them to come into existence in one way or another.
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  Speaker 5: And we know from esoteric traditions this is exactly from
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  Speaker 5: the creation of tulpas we know that this has been
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  Speaker 5: going on for centuries, and I know that a lot
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  Speaker 5: of the guys in this group who are involved in
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  Speaker 5: esoteric groups will be agreeing with me on this. But
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  Speaker 5: the question is it's a question of how we interpret
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  Speaker 5: this as far as I'm concerned.
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  Speaker 1: Great, Thank you, Anthony. What do you think about the
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  Speaker 1: current climate with regards to edgra gods, because I've been
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  Speaker 1: thinking a lot about Pierre tell A Deschadan recently and
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  Speaker 1: his concept of zero point field, you know, the Amiga point,
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  Speaker 1: and I feel like those things are somehow related because
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  Speaker 1: it does seem with this speeding up technology, with this
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  Speaker 1: nesting of egg regords, if you like that there are
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  Speaker 1: too many choices, there's like multiple dimensions being created by thought,
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  Speaker 1: and we're kind of collapsing in upon these various different
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  Speaker 1: other worlds that we're creating with our minds.
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  Speaker 5: No, absolutely, I think the writings of Taihard de Chardan,
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  Speaker 5: and I've seen some of your postings on that we
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  Speaker 5: need to talk about this because it's an area that's
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  Speaker 5: fascinated me for years as well. And of course the
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  Speaker 5: idea of the new sphere, the idea that you know
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  Speaker 5: that we're moving towards some kind of collective evolution for
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  Speaker 5: want of a better term, and it seems that the
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  Speaker 5: world is getting faster and faster. I find it extraordinary
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  Speaker 5: how quickly the ideas that we have been talking about
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  Speaker 5: for many, many years are now coming to fruition. I mean,
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  Speaker 5: one of the other members of the group referenced about
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  Speaker 5: dimethyl trip to mean and the way in which eggrigaws
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  Speaker 5: are being created by dimethyl trip to mean trips. And
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  Speaker 5: of course, Sarah, you and I have a number of
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  Speaker 5: mutual friends that have been involved in this research for many,
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  Speaker 5: many years, and of course some of the results they're
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  Speaker 5: now getting are incredible. So one could argue that particularly
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  Speaker 5: your point about the zero point field, because if the
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  Speaker 5: zero point field exists as particularly I wrote a book
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  Speaker 5: a few years ago with a professor Irvan Laslow, and
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  Speaker 5: Laslow and I in that book were discussing about his
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  Speaker 5: concept of the akashak field, the concept that the concept
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  Speaker 5: the old Vedic idea of the Akasha can be interpreted
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  Speaker 5: as being effectively the zero point field, which is a
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  Speaker 5: source of limitless energy that exists just at the point
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  Speaker 5: of absolute zero. And it seems to us that there
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  Speaker 5: is something within this world that our minds don't allow
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  Speaker 5: us necessarily access to there's a broader informational field. And
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  Speaker 5: I've argued in my books that the depending upon your
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  Speaker 5: position on what I call the Huxley and spectrum, is
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  Speaker 5: how open you are to the information field. And I
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  Speaker 5: argue that people like myself who are classic migrainers can
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  Speaker 5: appreciate more of it. People who have temple over epilepsy,
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: people who experience autism, people who experience schizophrenia. All these
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  Speaker 5: individuals their doors of perception. As described by Aldus Huxley
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  Speaker 5: in nineteen fifty four, the doors of perception are getting
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  Speaker 5: wider and wider, and it seems that it's almost like
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  Speaker 5: a collective evolution now. And there is a fair argument
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  Speaker 5: to say that we are co creating this reality. We
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  Speaker 5: are collapsing the informational field around us from our anticipations
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  Speaker 5: of what's going to become. This doesn't mean I'm advocating
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  Speaker 5: necessarily the law of attraction, but there are elements of
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  Speaker 5: the law of attraction that can be applied to quantum
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  Speaker 5: mechanics and does seem to make sense.
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  Speaker 1: Great, thank you. Let's let's move on to some more
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  Speaker 1: kind of hametic Ancient traditional views of the equa goal,
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  Speaker 1: ike Lee, do you want to answer to that, I'll.
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  Speaker 6: Give it a smack.
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  Speaker 7: Well, I think it's very interesting just to comment on
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  Speaker 7: what Anthony was saying. Very interesting that the zero point
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  Speaker 7: field and the it being sort of synonymous with the
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  Speaker 7: Akashak field. I think that's really important thing because in
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  Speaker 7: effectively in ceremonial magic. And I wrote a book about
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  Speaker 7: this called Etheric Magic, and it meant to sort of
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  Speaker 7: give it a more westernized vernacular for the practicing esotericists
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  Speaker 7: rather than somebody that's purely interested in quantum physics. This
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  Speaker 7: is what we're working with in order. The goal is
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  Speaker 7: to draw things out, whether they be energies, whether they
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  Speaker 7: be disembodied intelligences that we then interface with through these
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  Speaker 7: what we call gateway images, just to read upon forms
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  Speaker 7: so that you can interact and interface with something that
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  Speaker 7: you have drawn out or attracted out of the zero
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  Speaker 7: point field. That could be an energy again as well.
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  Speaker 7: You know, this is what it means to do an
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  Speaker 7: invocation of elemental Earth, elemental fire, so on and so forth.
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  Speaker 7: And I think certainly it's it's extremely relevant to what
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  Speaker 7: we're going to talk about today. I do want to
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  Speaker 7: kind of go back a little bit, and because in
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  Speaker 7: discussions of aggrigors, you usually see one of two things happening.
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  Speaker 7: You see people never addressing the original sort of connotation
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  Speaker 7: and and etymological meaning of the word, or you see
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  Speaker 7: people that are kind of nitpicking and saying, well, the
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  Speaker 7: modern you know, the as Anthony referred to it before
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  Speaker 7: the accepted term, the contemporary accepted term is bunk, because
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  Speaker 7: it didn't always mean this. I don't believe that to
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  Speaker 7: be true. I think it's just we've applied a name
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  Speaker 7: for something to some thing that we have experientially come
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  Speaker 7: to understand. It's come within our sphere of awareness, perhaps
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  Speaker 7: as we open up to these things again, as Anthony
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  Speaker 7: was saying, but initially we get this word e grigore
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  Speaker 7: from the septuagen translation of Daniel. I think is the
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  Speaker 7: first time you really see it on the historical record
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  Speaker 7: in this context as well as the Uh. I believe
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  Speaker 7: the text is actually in Geese, it's like a Southern
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  Speaker 7: Semitic language. But the obviously the Book of Enoch, right,
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  Speaker 7: I mean, the parts of that are called Book the
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  Speaker 7: Book of Enoch the Watchers, and that's what this word means.
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  Speaker 7: It's a It's a Greek word that means wakefulness to
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  Speaker 7: watch in Daniel, they serve as kind of this avenging
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  Speaker 7: force against king nebud Kadnezer. Right, they're delivering divine justice.
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  Speaker 7: It says something to the effect of by decree of
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  Speaker 7: the watchers, by decree of the igrigory uh in knock right.
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  Speaker 7: I think most people here are probably familiar with that story.
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  Speaker 7: They are angels that we're supposed to, I guess protect,
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  Speaker 7: but go down and mate with human females, and they
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  Speaker 7: create a race, hybrid race that we refer to as
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  Speaker 7: the nephiline, which commonly gets translated as the giants. That
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  Speaker 7: again comes from a Semitic root in the fel It
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  Speaker 7: just means the fallen, those who have fallen. So around
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  Speaker 7: the nineteenth century, maybe early twentieth century, but certainly the
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  Speaker 7: nineteenth century, you have people like Elifas Levi, right, the
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  Speaker 7: French occultist and author writing about this stuff, talking about
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  Speaker 7: this using these discrete terms in this new context, in
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  Speaker 7: this what is now quote unquote occult, perhaps even magical,
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  Speaker 7: you know, to use a cliched term in that context,
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  Speaker 7: and he's applying it there. Levy, however, he refers to
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  Speaker 7: these things as a great cosmic forces of the universe
• 13:02
  Speaker 7: that are intelligent. They're kind of he writes about in
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  Speaker 7: a posthumously published work called The Great Secret for anybody
• 13:09
  Speaker 7: that's interested in getting like a PDF or something or
• 13:11
  Speaker 7: buying that book. He talks about them as these cosmic
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  Speaker 7: forces of antagonism, similar to the Titans. Actually the way
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  Speaker 7: he describes them very similar to the Titans of.
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  Speaker 6: Ancient Greek mythology.
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  Speaker 7: And then contemporaneously you have people like Blavatski weighing in
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  Speaker 7: saying things like they're the shadows of higher planetary powers
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  Speaker 7: which are made of light. And finally you get Renee
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  Speaker 7: Guenon who his work is coming more back into fashion
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  Speaker 7: concepts like counterinitiation or really fascinating to people like me,
• 13:44
  Speaker 7: but he starts talking about Edgar Gore's specifically in the
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  Speaker 7: context of they are the collective manifestations of or the
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  Speaker 7: psychic manifestations energetic manifestations of the collective psyche. And then
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  Speaker 7: from there, obviously, as as Anthony pointed out, Israel Regorty,
• 14:09
  Speaker 7: Dion Fortune right who who actually yeah, she Dolores Ashcroftnwicki
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  Speaker 7: learned lots from from from Denfortune's work. We all have
• 14:19
  Speaker 7: h She talks about it in a book called Psychic
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  Speaker 7: Self Defense in a really fascinating way. But effectively, it
• 14:25
  Speaker 7: becomes this, It becomes this psychic phenomenon that is working
• 14:32
  Speaker 7: on this theory, and the theory is the way she
• 14:35
  Speaker 7: conceives of it as astral etheric, meaning that astral in
• 14:41
  Speaker 7: the term in the way she's using the term having
• 14:43
  Speaker 7: to do with the imagination and deeper parts of the
• 14:46
  Speaker 7: psyche and the etheric being what something similar to what
• 14:51
  Speaker 7: Anthony was talking about the zero point field. There's this
• 14:54
  Speaker 7: marriage of the two. It's kind of like it's almost
• 14:57
  Speaker 7: as if I think of it this way, because I'm
• 14:59
  Speaker 7: very visual. You know how they wind cotton candy around
• 15:04
  Speaker 7: the cone. It's like a spool and it just grows.
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  Speaker 7: It sort of weaves almost like a blanket around this thing.
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  Speaker 7: That gravitational mass of the psychic energy somehow creates something
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  Speaker 7: that appears to be autonomous and its substance is etheric.
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  Speaker 8: And so the.
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  Speaker 7: Question then is, you know, you talk about Tulpa's so
• 15:28
  Speaker 7: on and so forth, does this have objective or autonomous existence?
• 15:34
  Speaker 7: I believe it has objective existence. I've experienced them as well,
• 15:38
  Speaker 7: But you know you said to bring it back to
• 15:43
  Speaker 7: hermetic sources. I mean, what better of an example than
• 15:47
  Speaker 7: Iamblicus of Kyle kees right, the third and fourth century Neoplatonic,
• 15:53
  Speaker 7: really hermetic philosopher who wrote all about theogy and developed
• 15:59
  Speaker 7: these sophisticated hierarchies of spiritual taxonomy. He talks about something,
• 16:04
  Speaker 7: He addresses a criticism that another philosopher, porphyryposits, and he says, listen,
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  Speaker 7: the soul meaning our psyche, right, that's the Greek word
• 16:15
  Speaker 7: c keys, the etymological root of that word psychology psyche.
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  Speaker 7: The soul cannot create anything. Autonomous spirits cannot be made
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  Speaker 7: by human beings because we cannot create the way that
• 16:30
  Speaker 7: gods create. We can't even really behave in the way
• 16:35
  Speaker 7: that's something like a diamon, you know, an intermediary spirit.
• 16:40
  Speaker 7: We can't do those things in embodiment. So the question
• 16:44
  Speaker 7: then becomes, and I throw it back to maybe somebody
• 16:47
  Speaker 7: else on the panel. Once these leave us, how long
• 16:53
  Speaker 7: do they survive? Do they then become immortal? Is it
• 16:57
  Speaker 7: an indefinite period of time? And one of the key
• 16:59
  Speaker 7: things Sarah would remind people about what we say about
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  Speaker 7: agregors is that they need constant sources of energy and
• 17:08
  Speaker 7: thought and emotion, so it's almost like we create a
• 17:11
  Speaker 7: parasite like narcissists.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, I wonder if greg you would like to say
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: something to this, because you're the Aamblicus expert here.
• 17:24
  Speaker 9: Well, yeah, I was listening to Aiken. It's always interesting
• 17:28
  Speaker 9: to listen to it because I know so much about
• 17:30
  Speaker 9: so many different things. I don't recall that Aamblicus ever
• 17:33
  Speaker 9: addresses a gregors as by not by that term, right,
• 17:39
  Speaker 9: So I don't know quite what to say about a
• 17:42
  Speaker 9: Gregor's any Amblicus. And the reason I came to this
• 17:46
  Speaker 9: is because I'm not really sure what people mean when
• 17:49
  Speaker 9: they're talking about a greg Wors. I'm listening to a
• 17:53
  Speaker 9: few people say a couple of different things, and it's
• 17:56
  Speaker 9: somewhere in the not quite physical but psychologically real domain.
• 18:02
  Speaker 9: But I don't know quite what we're talking about. And
• 18:05
  Speaker 9: I don't necessarily know if Gregor's is supposed to be
• 18:09
  Speaker 9: kind of a negative presence or neutral. And I was
• 18:15
  Speaker 9: introduced to the term by Bleovotsky, so, but beyond what
• 18:20
  Speaker 9: Blvoski said, I don't really know what to think gregors are.
• 18:25
  Speaker 9: And that's why I came. I wanted to find out
• 18:27
  Speaker 9: if somebody could help me understand what we're talking about
• 18:30
  Speaker 9: when we mentioned A. Gregors, and so that's why I'm here.
• 18:34
  Speaker 9: And I don't think a Amblicus mentions them. That's that's
• 18:38
  Speaker 9: my only knowledge about amplicas, and A. Gregors has nothing
• 18:41
  Speaker 9: to say.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: I guess like my feeling was this idea of it
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: being a thought form, it being, like you've said, a intangible,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: immaterial thought form that's created by psychic activity of human
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: beings or maybe other animals as well. I don't know,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: But does anyone think they can answer Greg's question?
• 19:07
  Speaker 10: I think yeah, I think I can have a go. Yes.
• 19:12
  Speaker 10: So basically, in certain ancient traditions, in certain initiatic passages
• 19:20
  Speaker 10: and so on, you do get these issues being addressed
• 19:25
  Speaker 10: more directly. And so, for example, I've always felt that
• 19:32
  Speaker 10: even though etymologically the word aggregor is not necessarily attached
• 19:39
  Speaker 10: to or has any relation with the word aggregate, I
• 19:43
  Speaker 10: think it's one of the best ways of bringing it together,
• 19:47
  Speaker 10: because that's very much how I see it. Like, for example,
• 19:51
  Speaker 10: you have the couple, if you're just in a couple,
• 19:54
  Speaker 10: or if you're a relationship with one direct person, you
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  Speaker 10: kind of form, something begins to grow between you. You you form
• 20:01
  Speaker 10: your own bubble, and within that bubble, it's almost as
• 20:05
  Speaker 10: if there's a there's a one being is created from that,
• 20:09
  Speaker 10: from that union or from that relationship. If we bring
• 20:15
  Speaker 10: the term watch foot, watchfulness or awakeness into this, then
• 20:21
  Speaker 10: we begin to understand that maybe what what's being created there.
• 20:25
  Speaker 10: Even though everybody else may see, may say that that
• 20:28
  Speaker 10: couple is in their own bubble, what's happening is there's
• 20:30
  Speaker 10: a there's a heightening of awareness of certain of certain realities,
• 20:35
  Speaker 10: of certain factors. So it kind of exists within that
• 20:41
  Speaker 10: small sphere, within that small relationship, and then it sort
• 20:44
  Speaker 10: of grows larger. It then turns into the family. So
• 20:48
  Speaker 10: I know that this is going to sound a little
• 20:50
  Speaker 10: bit like we're going into morphic fields here and that
• 20:53
  Speaker 10: whole sort of thing you know to do with morphic fields.
• 20:56
  Speaker 10: But I do feel that there's a very strong relationship
• 21:00
  Speaker 10: it here between the idea of specific forms that are created.
• 21:05
  Speaker 10: And I know it was mentioned also about symbols being
• 21:08
  Speaker 10: a type of aggrigor. Yes, they could be, but I
• 21:12
  Speaker 10: I perhaps see them as being more trigger points or
• 21:17
  Speaker 10: points of focus. So I wouldn't say that the agregor
• 21:21
  Speaker 10: or the concept of the aggregor is either positive or negative.
• 21:25
  Speaker 10: I would say that it's actually just a function of
• 21:27
  Speaker 10: consciousness itself and how consciousness begins to it begins to operate.
• 21:36
  Speaker 10: So we could we could even go even further and
• 21:38
  Speaker 10: say certain aggregates or certain regions of the brain work
• 21:42
  Speaker 10: as aggregors, and then they have communicative relationships between other
• 21:48
  Speaker 10: aspects or parts of the brain. Again, AI, you know this,
• 21:53
  Speaker 10: this has a direct relationship to how these things may
• 21:55
  Speaker 10: begin to function and evolve. But beyond and the family,
• 22:00
  Speaker 10: you know, you get a certain agregor within the family.
• 22:03
  Speaker 10: I'm talking about normal, profane, external manifestations of what I
• 22:08
  Speaker 10: understand the agrigor to be. Then you have the agrigor
• 22:10
  Speaker 10: of the village. Then you have the agrigora of the town.
• 22:14
  Speaker 10: On a larger sense, then you have the agrigora of
• 22:16
  Speaker 10: the country. Then you have the agrigor of the region
• 22:22
  Speaker 10: in the region, in the country, then the country. Then
• 22:25
  Speaker 10: then you have the world zone, the eastern against the
• 22:29
  Speaker 10: western agrigora and all of this sort of thing, and
• 22:32
  Speaker 10: then you have the agrigor of the planet itself. So
• 22:36
  Speaker 10: it's not a positive thing, it's not a negative thing.
• 22:38
  Speaker 10: But going back into the thing about the objective and
• 22:41
  Speaker 10: the subjective, as I say, I see it as an
• 22:44
  Speaker 10: aspect of consciousness itself. An idea or something from the
• 22:49
  Speaker 10: new sphere can then end up influencing and becoming an
• 22:54
  Speaker 10: objective reality. So I would say it's all of these things. Yeah,
• 23:02
  Speaker 10: I think that's all I have to say at the moment.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, great, thank you very much. Lee You when you
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: was talking, it just reminded me of I was reading
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: an article recently about how it's been discovered that spiders
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: have this extended consciousness that they think with their web,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: and I think that that's also another way that I
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: consider the ego go to be this projection of consciousness
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: into the outside world. And I think generally speaking, we
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: do have the capability for extended consciousness. Anyway, I just
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: want to get to everybody else who's got their hand up.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: So Vasilios, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: I'm delighted to see you here.
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm really happy to to be this company.
• 23:47
  Speaker 11: Then.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: Thanks is a term. I mean, as far as I
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: know from the Ambly Who's the term has not been
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: used in the hermetic tradition of Alexandria or or the
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: earlier Greek thing. Other than parathetically, what was created as
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: a term that we're using today is by Elipha's levee
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: and form or whatever. So it's Elipha's levee mind of
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: mindset that is involved by this term. And the other
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: thing is that being yes, they are also as a physicist,
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: I have to protest about the liberal use of quantum mechanics.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: What we're doing here is is far beyond quantum mechanics
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: is something that is not described in our physics, and
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: it is a quest for the new kind of the
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: new science of questions to incorporate that quantum mechanics is
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: very mechanical in a sense as we practice it now,
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: it's just you know, a tool of computing stuff, but
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: it has a very good connection with mysticate. Addition, that's
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: something that we I set aside because I'd like to
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: emphasize the difference between the agent hive mind and the
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: eggregor The emerging hive mind is associated with a super
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: organism like the bees or the ants, or cities London
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: and the spirit of the city, which is usually associated
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: with the spirit spirit of a great river in all
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: big cities in the world. So you have this idea
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: that there is a you know, a collective mind which
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: is emerging or constructed by all the little minds that
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: constitute this community. And Agregor is an independent existence and
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: usually not embodied. It is using some kind of symbols
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: in order to express itself. And it's I would go
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: with the term that it is aware in in in
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: my mind, is aware of what? Is it aware only
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: of the of it of its creator? Is it aware
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: of the environment? Is it aware of other things? So
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: this is my quick no more about the stuff, and
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: that's not for the moment.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Great, I think that they are really good points. So
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: are you recognizing it as being human created or created
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: by beings of some sort, or that it can have
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: its own independent volition like a god or a demon.
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: My personal feeling is more Brunei and like Jordano Bruno
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: was putting forward this idea of the bonding. So it
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: is it is it is a relationship because that becomes independent.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, So like I, like I was mentioning, there's this
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: idea that it requires our thought in order to succeed.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Can it go on to have its own life?
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: Afterwards, yes, and it and it requires and and and
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: in between medium between two consciousness or two monarchs or
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: two tables. So the bonding that is happening between the
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: one monard in the brilliant sense and another one creates
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: some intermediate expression which has its own characteristic. It does
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: not belong either to one or to the other one.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: And well they're codependent, but they don't belong. They don't
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: can be, they cannot be reduced to one another something different.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: And this is the sacred act of bonding. And the
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: greatest bonding is love. According to.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much, becaus.
• 28:02
  Speaker 12: Hello, I thought I might give a modern take on
• 28:05
  Speaker 12: the idea of the could Gore. I'm a DJ. So
• 28:10
  Speaker 12: when I'm djaing to my crowd, they're first a bunch
• 28:13
  Speaker 12: of individuals. And when I play in the right music
• 28:16
  Speaker 12: and the right sequence of music, at some point these
• 28:19
  Speaker 12: individuals become a crowd. And now I can lead the
• 28:22
  Speaker 12: crowd in a particular way which you know, it has
• 28:26
  Speaker 12: its own energy. I can say, oh, the crowd was
• 28:29
  Speaker 12: really up for it, or the crowd was a bit
• 28:31
  Speaker 12: slow to night. I can treat it like one organism,
• 28:35
  Speaker 12: and you know, an answer to the question of you know,
• 28:39
  Speaker 12: can it how long can it exist? And you know,
• 28:42
  Speaker 12: these deeper questions about it. It is my feeling that
• 28:46
  Speaker 12: if you go from the perspective that there is a
• 28:49
  Speaker 12: all being, one consciousness like Brahman, you know, the everything everywhere,
• 28:56
  Speaker 12: all at once, the oneness, and that here on this
• 29:00
  Speaker 12: reality we're living in a you know, a maya, a duality.
• 29:05
  Speaker 12: So the zero point field is another word I think
• 29:09
  Speaker 12: for singularity, and here we are in duality. So they'll
• 29:15
  Speaker 12: be the collective consciousness can be tapped into by any
• 29:19
  Speaker 12: any group of people or animals or beings or whatever.
• 29:25
  Speaker 12: It's almost like just getting closer to that, to that oneness.
• 29:30
  Speaker 12: You know, you see with like starlings murmurrations of birds.
• 29:35
  Speaker 12: Is there is there you know, one person one bird
• 29:39
  Speaker 12: leading that or is this this kind of collective intelligence
• 29:42
  Speaker 12: of these birds that follow each other that create this
• 29:45
  Speaker 12: beautiful harmony. Another thing that I reference in my paper
• 29:49
  Speaker 12: is the pendulums in the clocks. That you put a
• 29:53
  Speaker 12: bunch of clocks in a room together, the pendulum pendulums
• 29:57
  Speaker 12: will all start swinging in say think, so there is
• 30:01
  Speaker 12: some kind of like vibration transfer that's happening, that's creating
• 30:06
  Speaker 12: this unity. So I think there's many ways that you
• 30:11
  Speaker 12: can look at it, but ultimately it is a collective
• 30:15
  Speaker 12: consciousness that emerges from the thoughts, the beliefs, the energies
• 30:21
  Speaker 12: of all the participants, even if they don't consciously realize it.
• 30:26
  Speaker 12: And once it has been created, it will affect those
• 30:29
  Speaker 12: that are within it again, whether they know about it
• 30:32
  Speaker 12: or not. And you know, if you do believe that
• 30:36
  Speaker 12: at some level everything is consciousness, it makes it not
• 30:40
  Speaker 12: that difficult to understand why something like this could emerge.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks Caz iPhone twenty one. Danny, can you
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: hear me? Yep?
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Oh right, okay, hello, Yeah, that's my new name. Yeah,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: I'm there's no book by Mark Davis on this, and
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: he kind of covers both of those ideas. What Greatgregor
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: is Either it's either it's the collective thing which is
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: made by everyone in a group, or it's the portal
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: that's made by a group which then lets something in.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Someone asked a moment ago about whether it's evil or not.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Tomburg reckons Yes, he says they're all evil. I'm not
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: sure i'd totally agree with that, but one thing that
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: is does seem to be common to Gregor's is that
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: they demand sacrifice, right. They For example, if it's your workplace,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: it's going to demand that you spend time there when
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: you're not spending with your family would be one example.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: But it can also demand more harsh sacrifices. They Yeah,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: so they don't necessarily have to be sinister, but they
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: generally are. I think the thing about it its awareness
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: or it's intelligence. I think you see that quite a
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: lot in what looks like grand conspiracies. I think when
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: a group gets together united by something, let's say it's greed,
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: it might do things which seem to be coordinated, as
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: if there's some kind of they behind it, and it's
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: I don't know, selling this thing at a certain time
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: when this thing is also going on, and it does
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: seem that an a greg Gore. I feel that a
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Gregor will will move the individual actions of a particular
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: person in that group in a way that harmonizes with
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: other people in that group to extract something out of everybody.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: And I think the last thing I want to say is, uh,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: it's I don't think it is collective intelligence. I think
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: it's something which always will nearly always appears when intelligent
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: intelligence collectivizes in the same way that when you build
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: a bridge, you also create a habitat for a troll
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: under the bridge. And I think that's actually what it is,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: because the way I believe that the way you kill
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: a troll is by you bring it out into the light.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they don't like the light, do they.
• 33:28
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: So when it starts becoming clear that you know, back
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: to that example of your of your business, you know,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: your corporation or something, if it's demanding that you uh,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know, work on weekends but actually don't want to.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: If you can raise that in a collective and say, well,
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: what is this that's demanding that, then maybe you know,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: you can kind of shine some light of intelligence onto
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: something which is actually which is actually sucking your blood. Tomberg,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: by the way, he was a Catholic theologian. He was
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: the favorite taro reader of one of the popes, and
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: he wrote a massive book on meditations and the Tarot.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: So that's the kind of perspective who was coming from
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: who were saying that the Catholic Church has has a
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: good a good spirits, and everything else has an a
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: gregor which is evil.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: M Yeah, it's interesting. That makes me think of cults
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: quite a lot, and how a cult can develop an
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: aggregor and then it's directing its members. That seems to happen.
• 34:24
  Speaker 9: Quite a lot.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, finally he would. He also gave an
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: instruction on how to get rid of it, and it's
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: very easy. You just turned three times to the left
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: and recite the first line of one of the psalms.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Hmm, that does sound quite easy. Maybe we could all
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: do that afterwards.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: I'll dig it up so I can work at which
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: one is it?
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: No, that's you sactrifice your left hand.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Danny. Let me just Danny's got quite a
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: lot of background sounds, so I'm going to mute Danny.
• 35:03
  Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, going back to Greg's question and wondering,
• 35:13
  Speaker 6: you know, how do we define this? And I think
• 35:20
  Speaker 6: I think, even though we don't see it addressed in Iamblicus,
• 35:24
  Speaker 6: I really think Greg, you you probably are more familiar
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: with this concept than you realize, because it's really difficult
• 35:34
  Speaker 6: to understand the concept of an aggrigor without going back
• 35:40
  Speaker 6: to like Li said, this aggregate. So let's think about
• 35:46
  Speaker 6: it in terms of the the animated statues that are
• 35:55
  Speaker 6: insold right when we talk about spiritus loci, you know,
• 36:06
  Speaker 6: the genius of a place. A modern observer, if he
• 36:14
  Speaker 6: were to walk into a place and see, for instance,
• 36:19
  Speaker 6: in a tree or in a rock, the very clear
• 36:25
  Speaker 6: delineation of what appears to be a face of a being.
• 36:30
  Speaker 6: You know, the modern tendency would be to say that's paradolia,
• 36:37
  Speaker 6: that we're hardwired to find meaning to see faces. It's
• 36:43
  Speaker 6: a survival mechanism, and there's a great deal of truth
• 36:47
  Speaker 6: to that. But on the other hand, what is it
• 36:51
  Speaker 6: behind the substrate of material existence that causes faces beings
• 37:01
  Speaker 6: to appear as they do? What? You know, like we
• 37:07
  Speaker 6: say that the daemon with the daemons, they they make
• 37:11
  Speaker 6: the chips fall where they do in our world by
• 37:14
  Speaker 6: decree of the gods. But it's because there's this inherent
• 37:19
  Speaker 6: underlie meaning. You know, why do and I hate to
• 37:23
  Speaker 6: borrow terms from from physics, but you know, why do
• 37:31
  Speaker 6: the atoms arrange themselves around this locus of being that
• 37:37
  Speaker 6: each of us are? Why does it arrange itself in
• 37:40
  Speaker 6: such a way that we recognize a face? Why do
• 37:43
  Speaker 6: we have a face? And you know this this was
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: this was a question that the Stoics wrestled with for instance,
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: with their with their logo. You know, these these seed
• 37:56
  Speaker 6: forms that inform each being, give each being its own
• 38:01
  Speaker 6: kind of appearance. But in terms of these entities appearing
• 38:11
  Speaker 6: and becoming conscious, like I said a moment ago, I
• 38:16
  Speaker 6: think the question of whether or not there they are
• 38:19
  Speaker 6: objectively real or not becomes a moot point when we
• 38:23
  Speaker 6: reconsider the definition of reality. Excuse me, the definition of
• 38:29
  Speaker 6: something being real as what is its capacity to affect
• 38:35
  Speaker 6: real change. Because when we look at it that way,
• 38:40
  Speaker 6: let's say that you're being chased by, you know, a
• 38:44
  Speaker 6: pack of wolves. You're running from them only you can
• 38:48
  Speaker 6: see them, but you're running from and you run off
• 38:50
  Speaker 6: a cliff. The end result is the same. The equation changes,
• 38:54
  Speaker 6: but the product, the sum, is the same. You have
• 38:57
  Speaker 6: fallen off a cliff. Real change has taken place. So
• 39:05
  Speaker 6: I think, I think this is a lot closer to
• 39:07
  Speaker 6: home than a lot of us realize. And while this
• 39:12
  Speaker 6: isn't necessarily hermetic, it's certainly platonic uh and and and
• 39:20
  Speaker 6: has precedent within Greek philosophy as a whole. A good
• 39:26
  Speaker 6: example is vasari At at his home in Araso. He
• 39:32
  Speaker 6: painted this fresco and immortalized this, this scene, this event
• 39:40
  Speaker 6: that da Vinci commented on. Botticelli commented on it, but
• 39:44
  Speaker 6: it was in reference to protogenies. The painter and he
• 39:51
  Speaker 6: was obsessed with being able to articulate detail in his work,
• 39:57
  Speaker 6: and he wanted to paint foam around this dog's mouth
• 40:03
  Speaker 6: in one of his paintings, but he couldn't do it,
• 40:05
  Speaker 6: and in a fit of rage, he takes his sponge
• 40:08
  Speaker 6: that he's been painting with and he throws it at
• 40:11
  Speaker 6: the painting, and all of a sudden he sees that
• 40:16
  Speaker 6: it causes the perfect foam effect he was trying to
• 40:22
  Speaker 6: arrive at manually, but he did it through throwing the
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: sponge right, so it essentially for the historical imagination, it
• 40:34
  Speaker 6: uncovers the paradolia effect, and eventually this is rediscovered. There
• 40:46
  Speaker 6: was a poet, Justinus Kerner, and he had very poor eyesight,
• 40:51
  Speaker 6: and he would write his poetry and his ink would
• 40:57
  Speaker 6: drip onto the paper, and he would fold these papers up,
• 41:01
  Speaker 6: and when he'd unfold them, there would be images that
• 41:05
  Speaker 6: would appear. He called this clexography. But it's the same
• 41:10
  Speaker 6: effect that was eventually rediscovered once again by the psychiatrist
• 41:16
  Speaker 6: uh Rorshak. What we know is a rorshack test, you know,
• 41:20
  Speaker 6: So looking at this these ink blots that that have
• 41:24
  Speaker 6: this this symmetry to them, that produce images that aren't
• 41:31
  Speaker 6: necessarily there, but we find them there. And once we
• 41:37
  Speaker 6: do the real question again, the we it's hard to
• 41:45
  Speaker 6: discuss it without making recourse to something like Young, you know,
• 41:50
  Speaker 6: and and I have mown problems with Young, especially his
• 41:53
  Speaker 6: interpretations of alchemy, but his his overall grand kind of
• 41:58
  Speaker 6: project I'm on board with, and which is basically the
• 42:04
  Speaker 6: idea that we we encounter ourselves in the world. We
• 42:11
  Speaker 6: don't know who we are what we are until we
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: encounter something that shows ourselves to us. So we experience
• 42:17
  Speaker 6: self as others. So the moment paradolia, which again I
• 42:22
  Speaker 6: think is just a word that doesn't explain anything, It
• 42:24
  Speaker 6: just explains it a way, the moment that kicks in
• 42:29
  Speaker 6: and we start perceiving a being an entity in a
• 42:34
  Speaker 6: specific space. You know, Are we encountering the soul? Are
• 42:44
  Speaker 6: we encountering the self? Can we distinguish the soul from
• 42:49
  Speaker 6: an insould statue, from uh an apparent being, and from
• 42:55
  Speaker 6: an from an aggregor I think all of these questions
• 42:59
  Speaker 6: are or wrapped up in the same problem and again, really, Greg,
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: you know when I when you first posed your question
• 43:14
  Speaker 6: the problem here, this is what immediately jumped to my mind,
• 43:20
  Speaker 6: because I think all of these ideas are really inseparable
• 43:25
  Speaker 6: if we're going to tease them out and treat it
• 43:28
  Speaker 6: for what it is.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Thank you, PD, that you really reminded me actually of
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: when I was. I remember being really small and not
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: really associating with being an individual at all, and looking
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: in the mirror and seeing an Italian apartment block, and
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: my tongue was an angry Italian man, and I could
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: look in my mouth and move my tongue around and
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: make weird noises, and I could just live in this
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: other world. So I think that part of our development
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: and our idea of self is survival. That we have
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: to survive in this cosmosque, and in order to navigate
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: the world that we live on, we have to kind
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: of refine and calibrate our perceptions to be able to
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: not go mad or just survive. So I think part
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: of the creation of self is just pure survival mechanism.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: And obviously, depending on what you're born into, that can
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: be more or less difficult. Bike.
• 44:26
  Speaker 7: Hi, so fascinating stuff from everybody. I wanted to just
• 44:33
  Speaker 7: comment because I didn't mean to create any confusion about
• 44:37
  Speaker 7: there being the discrete term eggregor in on the mysteries.
• 44:42
  Speaker 7: But I agree with pd in that this territory is
• 44:45
  Speaker 7: certainly not far from home for somebody like Greg Shaw.
• 44:49
  Speaker 7: I want to just read the part that I was
• 44:51
  Speaker 7: talking about just a couple of sentences. It's not talking
• 44:54
  Speaker 7: about talking about the same thing we are talking about,
• 44:57
  Speaker 7: which is the creation of an autonomous being from the
• 45:01
  Speaker 7: power of the soul, and what he has to say
• 45:03
  Speaker 7: about it. Even though he's using the term diamond right,
• 45:07
  Speaker 7: because that was it occupied a specific space in the
• 45:12
  Speaker 7: you know, spiritual hierarchy, but it was a generic term
• 45:15
  Speaker 7: for several different types of spirits. There are punitive diamonds
• 45:18
  Speaker 7: or a vengeance diamonds. There are personal or familiar diamonds,
• 45:23
  Speaker 7: there are elemental diamonds. So it's it works in the
• 45:27
  Speaker 7: context they're talking about. And my point is to show
• 45:31
  Speaker 7: that well, basically say I agree with the Amblicus on
• 45:34
  Speaker 7: the point and then talk a little bit about that.
• 45:37
  Speaker 7: Perhaps the group could go a little further into it.
• 45:40
  Speaker 7: But he says, now he's talking to Porphyry. You say
• 45:43
  Speaker 7: then that the soul by means of its inherent powers,
• 45:46
  Speaker 7: shapes the products derived from matter into daemons, especially when
• 45:51
  Speaker 7: the matter is taking from living beings.
• 45:54
  Speaker 9: This is the.
• 45:55
  Speaker 7: Definition modernly, the accepted definition basically what an egrigor is.
• 46:00
  Speaker 7: The Amlicus then responds to poriphemy, and he says, these
• 46:03
  Speaker 7: views seem to me to display an appalling disregard for
• 46:07
  Speaker 7: all theology and for theoregic activity. For one, absurdity appears
• 46:11
  Speaker 7: from the outset if deamonds are deemed to be created imperishable,
• 46:15
  Speaker 7: and another even more appalling absurdity is if they are created.
• 46:20
  Speaker 7: He goes on to say, moreover, how is it possible
• 46:22
  Speaker 7: that the activities of a divisible soul held fast in
• 46:26
  Speaker 7: a body that's ours could be transformed into essence and
• 46:30
  Speaker 7: exist separately by themselves outside of soul. So he is
• 46:35
  Speaker 7: dealing with the concept of an eggregor. It's just not
• 46:39
  Speaker 7: called that in this particular section. And my point is
• 46:43
  Speaker 7: is to agree with the Amlicus in that my experience
• 46:46
  Speaker 7: of things that we could quintessentially define as an aggrigor
• 46:51
  Speaker 7: seem to be parasitic or vampiric because they in a
• 46:55
  Speaker 7: way similar. What Danny was saying was very interesting about
• 46:58
  Speaker 7: this idea that the sacris don't have to be blood sacrifices.
• 47:02
  Speaker 7: It's you giving your time right, which is like your
• 47:04
  Speaker 7: only non recoupable resource. But the point is that they
• 47:08
  Speaker 7: can't really they depend on us for survival because they
• 47:11
  Speaker 7: cannot have autonomous existence. And that concept is supported by
• 47:16
  Speaker 7: what the Amblicus says in De Mysteries.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Ike, just batman before we get to you,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: greg do you want to say anything to that? Do
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: you feel more satisfied? You're mute, by the way, so
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: you need to ummute yourself.
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:34
  Speaker 9: I'm just holding on to try to figure out this distinction.
• 47:37
  Speaker 9: It seems like we're playing around, and I don't mean
• 47:40
  Speaker 9: that in a disparaging way, but we're playing around with
• 47:44
  Speaker 9: trying to determine whether these gregor has have independent existence
• 47:48
  Speaker 9: or they're created by us. And with regard to diamonds,
• 47:52
  Speaker 9: the Amblicus clearly says that they are not created by us,
• 47:55
  Speaker 9: they have independent existence. And perhaps I wasn't listening closely
• 48:00
  Speaker 9: enough to what Ike was saying and he might have
• 48:02
  Speaker 9: just made the distinction that I'm looking for. But so far,
• 48:07
  Speaker 9: it seems as if like who was it?
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: That was it?
• 48:09
  Speaker 9: Kaz the DJ. Where's Kaz there? Yeah, I understood what
• 48:14
  Speaker 9: she was saying about. When she's working with a group
• 48:17
  Speaker 9: and the group tends to have its own mind kind
• 48:20
  Speaker 9: of functioning, do we create that or how much of
• 48:26
  Speaker 9: let's say, Kaz is the DJ finding herself in sync
• 48:29
  Speaker 9: with the group mind, as if it has its own
• 48:32
  Speaker 9: kind of entity quality to itself that she's engaging and
• 48:37
  Speaker 9: perhaps working with.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: That.
• 48:40
  Speaker 9: I understand that energetically. I'm not quite sure whether I
• 48:44
  Speaker 9: understand whether it has an independent existence or not. And
• 48:49
  Speaker 9: I'm not even sure that it makes any difference practically.
• 48:52
  Speaker 9: But I don't really have any answers here. I'm groping
• 48:57
  Speaker 9: to understand how we make sense of the Greg word.
• 49:01
  Speaker 9: But maybe I bungled up what Ike was just saying.
• 49:06
  Speaker 9: But I'm just trying to make sense of it.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, thanks Greg, thank's that's what we're all doing. That's one.
• 49:18
  Speaker 13: Hello everybody. I'm well, First of all, what an incredible
• 49:21
  Speaker 13: a meeting. I am batoa vintage. I was one of
• 49:25
  Speaker 13: the volunteers in the DMT research at Imperial College. So
• 49:29
  Speaker 13: I received a huge DMT injection and my brain was scanned.
• 49:33
  Speaker 13: And this was ten years ago. And ever since then,
• 49:35
  Speaker 13: I've had several other DMC experiences where I met several
• 49:39
  Speaker 13: seeming the intelligent entities. So and I'm currently running a
• 49:42
  Speaker 13: d MT webinars where we talk about other world intelligences
• 49:47
  Speaker 13: that people meet under infilms of d MT. And Greg,
• 49:50
  Speaker 13: thank you for bringing up bringing that back about Kas
• 49:54
  Speaker 13: because and what Cas said really reminded me of something
• 49:56
  Speaker 13: that I experienced so in ice peak at festivals, and
• 50:01
  Speaker 13: one of the festivals that I go to is Boom
• 50:03
  Speaker 13: Festival in Portugal, which is the world's largest psychedelic gathering.
• 50:07
  Speaker 13: In twenty twenty three, after I delivered my talk, I
• 50:11
  Speaker 13: remember we danced for over forty eight hours NonStop. And
• 50:16
  Speaker 13: then at the Boom Festival, like you have twenty four
• 50:19
  Speaker 13: hours music and the beat in the background, and that
• 50:22
  Speaker 13: eighty thousand people are dancing to the same beat NonStop,
• 50:25
  Speaker 13: you know, so it does something to your consciousness, you know,
• 50:28
  Speaker 13: you feel one with everybody. As like what Kas was saying.
• 50:32
  Speaker 13: I remember on a Sunday morning, look Monday morning, like
• 50:36
  Speaker 13: around six seven am, and we were watching the sunrise
• 50:39
  Speaker 13: and I was at the front of the stitch, in
• 50:41
  Speaker 13: front of the the DJ and had they have this
• 50:45
  Speaker 13: incredible sub buffor that was like facing and like pumping
• 50:48
  Speaker 13: bass to the dance floor, and I remember I like
• 50:52
  Speaker 13: literally stood in front of it, and I turned around
• 50:55
  Speaker 13: and I looked at thousands of people dancing to the
• 50:58
  Speaker 13: same rhythm, and I started questioning, like, no one knows
• 51:02
  Speaker 13: each other here, but it feels like we're one big family,
• 51:05
  Speaker 13: like you know, like I feel like I know the
• 51:07
  Speaker 13: guy next to me. Like I would literally like you know, experience,
• 51:10
  Speaker 13: you know, you would just look into someone's anes just
• 51:13
  Speaker 13: like give each other hug. Because I could feel the
• 51:16
  Speaker 13: vibrations like going through the dance floor and like we
• 51:20
  Speaker 13: were all vibrating into the same rhythm. And at that moment,
• 51:23
  Speaker 13: I had a close I had a close eyes vision
• 51:25
  Speaker 13: and I saw Shiva and he was performing Nataraja. And
• 51:30
  Speaker 13: then I started seeing that, you know, the entire collective
• 51:33
  Speaker 13: mind here was like experience in Natarajia and coming back
• 51:37
  Speaker 13: to you know what we've been discussing here. And I
• 51:39
  Speaker 13: started like questioning, like are we channeling in Nataraja, like
• 51:44
  Speaker 13: and Shiva is connecting to us or we are actually
• 51:47
  Speaker 13: creating this and Shiva needs us to you know, tap
• 51:50
  Speaker 13: into this vibration and that's what Indians also have, you know,
• 51:53
  Speaker 13: experience back in the days, and then they named it
• 51:56
  Speaker 13: as Shiva Nataraja, but it's actually you know, a form
• 51:59
  Speaker 13: of consciousness that is available to everybody to to experience.
• 52:03
  Speaker 13: But it was just, you know, one of the most
• 52:05
  Speaker 13: mind expanding experiences that I've ever had. And I will
• 52:09
  Speaker 13: never forget that another experience that I had, you know,
• 52:11
  Speaker 13: on the same dance floor. I will literally see entities
• 52:15
  Speaker 13: dancing around it with us, because you know, when you
• 52:18
  Speaker 13: when you look at it from you know, from a
• 52:20
  Speaker 13: top down view, like imagine like you are other world
• 52:24
  Speaker 13: intelligences watching thousands of people dancing to this rhythmic and
• 52:28
  Speaker 13: then you know, and then just becoming one consciousness. So
• 52:32
  Speaker 13: that this is just what I wanted to share. And
• 52:34
  Speaker 13: then thanks kas for bringing that up. You know, that
• 52:36
  Speaker 13: was that really really reminded me of the experience.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Batwan. That reminds me as well of I
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: met an ethno musicologist. I was doing some research to
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: make an opera about the Descent of Banana a few
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: years back, and we talked to an ethno musicologist called
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: Richard Dumbrill, and he specializes in Mesopotamian music, and he
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: talked about how the silver liar that they discovered in
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: the Royal Cemetery of Earth, they used a descending scale,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: so every string on the liar as well, each each
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: note was a resonance that was associated with a particular
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: God in a particular stage of the descent. So the
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: music itself was invoking the essence of that journey. And
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: I think that, you know, what that makes me think
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: is how that state that like that frequency, that vibration
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: of a state, whether that's elation or fear, that gets
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: transmitted to people. People pick up on it. If you
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: get a group and you get a few of people
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: start to feel really scared, then the rest of the
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: group start to feel really scared, and likewise, so I
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: think there is something about you know, Anthony said he
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: didn't want to talk about law of attraction, but that
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: concept of attraction where like feeling state kind of multiplies
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: and develops, and you just got to look at what
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: happened during Corona vibes. Well, I wonder sometimes how much
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: the fierce day influenced the impact of the COVID itself,
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: you know, because the condition that we're in, the state
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: of fear that we're in obviously compromises our immune system.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: Fear is something that compromises your immune system simply, but
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: it also spreads. It's very infectious. Thank you Beat Siri.
• 54:24
  Speaker 14: Yeah, hi everyone, thank you again for hosting this. I
• 54:28
  Speaker 14: think it's an extremely interesting discussion in the current climate.
• 54:32
  Speaker 14: So I want to offer a couple of things tying
• 54:36
  Speaker 14: in maybe to some of what people have been saying before.
• 54:42
  Speaker 14: And I want to want to offer a perspective as
• 54:45
  Speaker 14: a kind of hobby egyptologist practicing as a terroicist and
• 54:48
  Speaker 14: literary scholar all at the same time. So I tend
• 54:53
  Speaker 14: to think of Egregor's in structurally as rizomatic. So you know,
• 55:00
  Speaker 14: if you think of the web of consciousness as like
• 55:02
  Speaker 14: a riisomatic web, that where you can infuse kind of
• 55:06
  Speaker 14: nodes into that web, meaning like points of contact that
• 55:10
  Speaker 14: can grow or you and you and you travel these
• 55:12
  Speaker 14: neural pathways continuously, right, so you know you can the
• 55:17
  Speaker 14: more you feed into that neural pathway or that thought,
• 55:22
  Speaker 14: then the more that node grows, and the more the
• 55:24
  Speaker 14: more you kind of understand that something kind of emerges.
• 55:28
  Speaker 14: Now there's an idea of of r risomatic structures ties
• 55:36
  Speaker 14: back to Eric Hornang's concept of heino theism in ancient
• 55:42
  Speaker 14: Egyptian religion, where the idea is not that you have
• 55:48
  Speaker 14: a kind of hierarchy, a given hierarchy of God's necessarily,
• 55:51
  Speaker 14: but what you have is like particular diamonds or genus
• 55:55
  Speaker 14: loci that you can feed energy into. There are examples
• 55:59
  Speaker 14: in Egyptian religion, and for example where a rather local
• 56:02
  Speaker 14: deity gets fed, gets kind of gets a cult, you know,
• 56:07
  Speaker 14: a cult center built for it, and then becomes a
• 56:12
  Speaker 14: large deity, the god a moon and is an example
• 56:15
  Speaker 14: of this, right, how that changes throughout Egyptian history. So
• 56:19
  Speaker 14: this idea of the kind of henotheistic every god can
• 56:22
  Speaker 14: be the greatest God in the context of what you're
• 56:25
  Speaker 14: talking about at the time. So when you are worshiping
• 56:28
  Speaker 14: a certain deity or connecting with a certain deity, you
• 56:31
  Speaker 14: will very often titulate them as such, and many of
• 56:34
  Speaker 14: them can have these different kinds of epithets. And I
• 56:39
  Speaker 14: think it's also interesting this idea of the watchers and
• 56:41
  Speaker 14: the kind of agrigor as a watchful spirit or or
• 56:45
  Speaker 14: has something watchful over it. So to tie this into
• 56:50
  Speaker 14: something a little bit more concrete, person.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, you've just meeted yourself, Sarah I.
• 56:58
  Speaker 14: Was actually going to just enter something in the chat.
• 57:00
  Speaker 14: Let's see if I can do that. So there is
• 57:02
  Speaker 14: a there is an interesting hieroglyph that relates to this.
• 57:06
  Speaker 14: It's Gardener's number twelve. And this might explain why you
• 57:11
  Speaker 14: don't see these this kind of concept in these yeah
• 57:17
  Speaker 14: lineo platonic texts. So there is the hieroglyph is it's
• 57:22
  Speaker 14: actually a depiction of a lotus with its stem and
• 57:28
  Speaker 14: its rhizome underneath it spells hah or hah as harsh
• 57:34
  Speaker 14: kind of age sound, and then the R and it
• 57:38
  Speaker 14: refers to a thousand. So it has to do with
• 57:40
  Speaker 14: number and measurement, but it also is used in lots
• 57:44
  Speaker 14: of words that have to do with memory, with thought
• 57:48
  Speaker 14: and also with this idea of a herdsman watching over
• 57:51
  Speaker 14: something or a field of something. And so the idea
• 57:54
  Speaker 14: also of the lotus, right where you have something that
• 57:58
  Speaker 14: kind of comes out of a rhizo matter root grows
• 58:02
  Speaker 14: up and opens up and gives birth to let's say
• 58:06
  Speaker 14: the rath for example, or a thought form. So there's
• 58:09
  Speaker 14: something in that mythology, that mythology of the lotus, and
• 58:14
  Speaker 14: it's in its ability to give birth to a thought
• 58:19
  Speaker 14: form that's it's quite interesting. So, and I noticed when
• 58:23
  Speaker 14: I was rereading parts of the Harmtica recently that there
• 58:26
  Speaker 14: are mentions them.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't read Greek, so.
• 58:30
  Speaker 14: Forgive me for for just using the Copenhavior translation, but
• 58:34
  Speaker 14: there are mentions of this concept of of herdsman's and overseers,
• 58:39
  Speaker 14: and those terms would have been spelt with this particular
• 58:43
  Speaker 14: hieroglyph of the of the plant, right, So it does
• 58:47
  Speaker 14: refer to plants, and it's often used to denote organic growth,
• 58:51
  Speaker 14: but it also refers to these ideas of being an
• 58:54
  Speaker 14: overseer of h and also relates to memory. And I
• 58:58
  Speaker 14: think that's an interesting way of conceptualizing. So those of
• 59:00
  Speaker 14: you who know much more about how young blockers might
• 59:04
  Speaker 14: write about this, or how any of the other kind
• 59:07
  Speaker 14: of neoplatonic philosophers might write about this before the term
• 59:12
  Speaker 14: comes into the agragor comes into you, so you might
• 59:14
  Speaker 14: kind of be able to see that then in this
• 59:17
  Speaker 14: idea of overseer or herdsman, if that might relate better. Yeah,
• 59:24
  Speaker 14: and I do have IF feeling into the agrigors as well.
• 59:28
  Speaker 14: And yeah, I think they can be both good, good
• 59:32
  Speaker 14: or bad depending on what you feed them, Like thoughts
• 59:36
  Speaker 14: can be good or bad. I don't I don't think
• 59:39
  Speaker 14: they are necessarily yeah one or the other.
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: Thank you, sirih Kas.
• 59:48
  Speaker 12: You said you've got You've got to go now, Yeah,
• 59:50
  Speaker 12: I've got to go and to really so, just very quickly,
• 59:53
  Speaker 12: I was just smiling so hard hearing about this description
• 59:57
  Speaker 12: of Bruturn's party for forty eight hours, and just a
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 12: couple of points about that. Quite specifically, what happens when
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 12: you're in a party like that is mirror neurons are
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 12: sinking together, and that's what's creating, you know, on a
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 12: biological level, this harmony. But I think one way of
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 12: thinking about it is starting off by asking yourself, like,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 12: what is a human anyway?
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: What are we?
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 12: And I tend to think of the way I look
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 12: at it is that there's greater consciousness. There's consciousness everywhere,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 12: and our humanity is like a coat we put on
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 12: that gives us form and shape within this massive, endless,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 12: infinite consciousness. And so you know, if you think about it,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 12: here's another way of looking at it. Imagine that there's
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 12: a light everywhere, and in that light there are boxes,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 12: and the boxes have different shapes cut out of them,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 12: so all these different boxes are expressing the light in
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 12: many different ways, but if you were to remove the box,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 12: you would just have all the light again.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: So an egg.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 12: Grigore is really a sort of a loosening of these
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 12: box shapes and making a new one from the conscious,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 12: like from the amalgamation of everybody's shapes. I don't know
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 12: if that makes sense, but that's kind of how I
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 12: see it. Like, you know, consciousness is everything and everywhere,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 12: and my personality and the way that I'm seeing through
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 12: this little little box. You know, it'll disappear one day.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 12: It's not the be all and end all, and I'll
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 12: go back to this, you know, endless soup of everything.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 12: So yeah, there's so many more things I could say
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 12: about this, but I've got to run.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 10: So that wasn't tea confusing.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Caz, have fancy later. By iPhone twenty one. Oh
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: that's me.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: I had a question for Kaz.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: She has she gone, I'm going now, I'm still I'm
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: still don't cant with it.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 8: Quick, Okay, I'll be quick.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: Like when I first got into magic, someone said to
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: me something like this, said, be very careful with group work,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: because with when you're doing group work, you can raise
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: a whole lot more energy than when you're doing stuff
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: on your own. And the first time I did do that,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: I ended up with this like migrame, which lasted a
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: day and I was quite sick. Something happened. A friend
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: of mine was a medicine festival a couple of years ago,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: and he was looking after the fire and he had
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: to pull someone out of the fire. Oh God, yeah,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: and like and there was another one at Medaphals festival
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: where a guy climbed up on a tent and started
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: kind of getting busy with the sharp objects. And I
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: remember a zora.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: There was a gazora.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: Someone jumped into the fire, and someone jumped into the toilet.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: I was already bring all this up. What it feels
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: like when I've been in in kind of group works,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: and I've done a lot of group works. I used
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: to run sessions back in the day. We always used
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: to start with candles, which is a kind of sacrifice.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: We always used to sacrifice something. And I wonder if
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: Batterhan Has and anyone else has some perspectives on why
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: it is that at those events, which I'm not trying
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: to be down on them, I really like those kind
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: of parties, but it happened to burning man as well.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: Do you think that people jumping into the fire is
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: in some way you can see that as the eggregor
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: demanding a sacrifice.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 12: If I could just say something very quickly about that,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 12: I don't think that egrigors are good or bad. I
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 12: think that they they inevitably emerge wherever there is a
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 12: group of people, So it's going to happen. And you know,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 12: I heard about that. It's really really tragic that those
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 12: things occur. But I think that we can't escape egridgrees.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 12: I think they're inevitable sort of, you know, like so
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 12: it's the collective group energy and not you know, all
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 12: our energy are not the same, and so you know,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 12: maybe that person who jumped into the fire was in
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 12: was having an ecstatic moment and somebody should have been
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 12: there to make sure that that wasn't going to happen.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 12: Whether I see it as a sacrifice. In duality, everything
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 12: has its price, that's more how I look at it. Like,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 12: you know, everything has a cause and everything has an effect,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 12: Everything has its has a price to pay. So everything
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 12: has a positive and a negative, and that's just kind
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 12: of how it plays out here. So perhaps that's the
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 12: balance of this existence.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: I guess the reason I'm bringing up here because there are,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: like traditionally, there are ways of you know, feeding those
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: things before they take feeding, you know, because they're hungry anyway,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: you know. I wonder if we could kind of broaden
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: our perspective out a little bit and you know, drop
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: some tobacco in a hole quietly or.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 12: Yeah, because you're you're you're really giving the personality in
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 12: a way that is demanding something. I think that's one
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 12: way of looking at it, and astrally, if we had
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 12: time to talk about that, that definitely is very true.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 12: But yeah, possibly possibly, But then again, that's just the
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 12: energies that you're putting into it. So if you're putting
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 12: humbleness and you know, asking for safety and sacrifice, and
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 12: you're putting that energy and you're already balancing the energies
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 12: in a particular way, whether the a gurgor is actually
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 12: some sort of like demons that's demanding it, I think
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 12: that's just the way of looking at it. I'm not
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 12: sure if you could put it exactly those terms, but
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 12: that's my opinion on it.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: I've got a run. Sorry, Thanks Kaz, Thanks Danny Pamela. Yeah.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm wondering if in this discussion it seems like
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: we're maybe drifting a little bit and talking about thought
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: forms collective consciousness, and to me, aggrigor is a well
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: the the you know. I think it's legitimate whether the
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: aggrigor arises out of thought forms or collective behavior. I
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: this goes back to the idea of the aggregor as
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: a day in mine or something. But I think that
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: these are different things that a thought form. While an
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: aggregor may be the arise our thought form, our general
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: sort of experience of collective consciousness and collective energy, does
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: not necessarily create an aggrigre. When I think the definitions
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: I've heard that comes closest to my own understanding of
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: the aggregre is that of Henre Corbin. When he in
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: talking about the resurrection of Templar orders. He makes a
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: comment that if the spirit of the templars was ever
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: a real thing, then that that energy exists and can
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: be revived. And I think that's kind of important when
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: we look at like reviving initiatic orders, which is something
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: I'm really interested, and I think we're kind of spreading
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: out our idea of thought form a bit in this
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: I mean a bit of eggregre a bit in this discussion.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Pamela. Anyone want to answer to that with
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: regards to a more kind of definite kind of peter,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: I've got failing. You're you're going to be good for
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: this one.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 11: You're a mute, Okay, I'm off now, right, yeah, okay,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 11: just my personal experience, very briefly with a very very
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 11: energized meditation, and I found myself in a Masonic lodge
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 11: room with a coffin to my right in which I
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 11: was lying, had all the kind of tangibility of a
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 11: real place. And I turned kind of the other way,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 11: and I entered a tunnel and it ascended very rapidly
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 11: into a pool of blinding light, in which I was
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 11: embraced by the most loving and accepting presences that I've
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 11: ever experienced in my life. And so I have nothing
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 11: to do with masonry in this life. So that was
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 11: curious that I should have entered this mystical experience. I
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 11: don't know how else to describe it through this particular avenue,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 11: but they were clearly connected. There was a sense in
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 11: which the aspiration that had built the third gree lodge
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 11: was connected to a higher order of meaning and significance.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 11: And there is a side note to this. My partner,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 11: who was also doing this meditation, reported arriving in the
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 11: same space, but she encountered a kind of speaker's platform
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 11: from which a.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 9: Large tongue unrolled.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 11: So she's completely in the symbolic domain here, like a
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 11: red carpet and a booming voice, said a well hung tongue.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 11: And for weeks after she harassed me for the meaning
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 11: of this, which of course I had.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 4: No idea what it meant.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: She's not English, is no, you know nothing to do.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 11: But I happened to be reading Andrew Sinclair's The Sword
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 11: in the Grail, which is kind of about his ancestral
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 11: connection to Oslin and the Templars, and sure enough, in
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 11: there there's a snippet of I think sixteenth century Masonic
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 11: question and answer in the Scottish form, in which the
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 11: question is what is the key.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: Of the lodge?
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: I think?
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 11: And the answer is a well hung tongue. So this
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 11: extraordinarily constellation of symbolic imagery and mystical significance occurred autonomously
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 11: to me through a highly energized meditation and a higher aspiration.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 11: So I just throw that in there as perhaps amplifying
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 11: a little what Pamela was trying to open as another
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 11: way of viewing the aggregor as perhaps a portal to
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 11: our highest aspirations.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: Thanks Peter. Talking of well hung tongues, Pascal, is your
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: tongue still numb? Pascal? I don't know.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 8: Is my tongue still numb? Can you can you hear me?
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 9: Okay?
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they still look a bit numb. You can see.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 15: Okay, I see, you can see the numbness. But at
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 15: least I'm I'm audible and understandable. Yeah, just avoid looking
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 15: for this part of I just had a tooth tooth extraction.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 15: Everybody's apologies for that, but I still I still couldn't
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 15: miss the event toothless or otherwise. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 15: so there's there's lots like we'd love to say about this,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 15: but I'm trying to be sort of Sucteus about it.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 15: I guess everyone's coming from this, this this kind of yeah, magical, Hametic,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 15: the Amblican, you know, these other Western esoterical cult kind
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 15: of ideas and things. But I like, I've got my
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 15: background in neuroscience, right, and cognitive psychology and stuff. So
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 15: obviously these this idea of ag regards was fascinating to
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 15: me from that perspective. But like always, you know, I'm
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 15: always trying to reconcile the all of the above, you know,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 15: So I mean just thinking about regorless kind of like
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 15: archetypes and these archetypal type structures just just types of
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 15: agents or concept that many people can experience, right, And
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 15: there's this concept of neuroonostic structures which was by Newberg
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 15: and Achille who sort of determined this idea trying to
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 15: like neuralize the idea of architect so, you know, and
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 15: that could be like an evolutionary thing. It's obviously adaptable
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 15: for a whole organism to identify things which may which
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 15: have been encountered many many times in fundamental ideas and
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 15: things and kind of through the germ line. And that's
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 15: something that can be kind of newly resurrected in certain
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 15: instances in order to for an individual to experience that.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 15: And Steven Zara, who identified the hallucinogenic properties of d MT,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 15: he himself said that he presupposes that these entities who
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 15: are always encounter may well be because these higher order
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 15: structures are dismantled and then they allow for these very
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 15: deep ingrained He didn't use the word neurinostic structures, but
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 15: he was referring to the same idea to be kind
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 15: of liberated and then that can enter into our into
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 15: our consciousness. All right, But obviously the interesting thing, the
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 15: most interesting thing is if if you know, these things
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 15: that people experience are you know, can be beyond simply
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 15: these evolutionary archetypes can be beyond what I'll sort of
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 15: say speak more to in a second in terms of
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 15: just collective expectation which and then inform kind of hallucinatory
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 15: per sets basically. And what can be beyond that is
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 15: if we have like concrete examples, some of which have
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 15: kind of been.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 8: Alluded to throughout but not really focused on.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 15: Which I think is super important to make this differentiation,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 15: is if these per septs that people are experiencing are
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 15: autonomous in some way, like there's actually some kind of
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 15: evidentiality for that, or the very least, you know, autonomous
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 15: or experienced by people who have no direct access or
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 15: even indirect access to to these original ideas. You know,
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 15: if it's totally alien to them, as it were, and
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 15: yet they're still experiencing it. But even if it's not that,
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 15: even if the very content of what they're experiencing not
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 15: just the general way in which these ideas or agents
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 15: can be expressed, but very very specific maners in which
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 15: they can be expressive, they're also encountering it in that way,
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 15: it becomes much more interesting and therefore we can try
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 15: to invoke ideas given that obviously we don't have all
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 15: of the answers to the actual relationship between the brain
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 15: and consciousness. And you know, we understand there is interesting
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 15: evidentiality from things like telepathy or shared visions, even if
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 15: it's not fully you know, confirmed, and that there can
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 15: be some kind of distributed nature to consciousness itself between brains. Essentially,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 15: these agents could potentially operate in a kind of between
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 15: brain kind of manner, and just just philosophically as well,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 15: before I just finish on the kind of the more
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 15: cognitive neuroscience thing and predictive processing philosophically, those a side
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 15: of hyper objects, right, and you're like, you can think
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 15: of any anything, So it's very relevant for the equagor
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 15: concept like something like McDonald's is often like a classic example,
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 15: it's it's this organization it's this institution and it has
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 15: very very many levels within increasing orders of abstraction, and
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 15: eventually the thing in and of itself that he's McDonald's.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 15: It's kind of or that, you know, other less kind
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 15: of mundane concepts. They are essentially sort of beyond classical comprehension.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 15: You know, they can't at that level, they can't be
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 15: exactly defined, and we as human beings whatever, we only
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 15: really see slices of that higher order, like hyper object,
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 15: because that thing is only defined by its constituents. But anyway,
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 15: he so here, this guy James Madden, this philose of
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 15: that he was he wrote Unidentified Flying hyper Objects, so
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 15: he was describing UFOs and UAP as these kinds of
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 15: hyper objects. So they're these kinds of structures which can
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 15: be related to this idea of as I just described.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 15: So yeah, so I mean that's to me, that's especially
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 15: interesting that area upology, the kind of these particular alien
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 15: entities which are encountered like the grays whatever.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 8: So basically coming back to the a gradg idea.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 15: And the commons of neuroscience to finish on that, like
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 15: we there are these very very repeatedly experienced agents, especially
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 15: like these gray kind of beings in that field. And yeah,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 15: I mean there are people like Jack Ballet, John Keel
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 15: and things who sort of described they obviously they didn't
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 15: refer to Eggol's exactly, but they described similar things in
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 15: terms of their theories of what these things are. They're
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 15: kind of these collective intelligences which interface with us as
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 15: human beings in this top down way, but but but
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 15: interact with our wider cultural systems, and there's an almost
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 15: control system going on there, but in this kind of
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 15: bi directional feedback thing. So the last thing I'll say
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 15: on predicted processing is that to me as a neuroscientist,
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 15: basically every every everything about the sort of agregorial concept
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 15: could theoretically be reduced in a more kind of trivial
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 15: way to these these processes, like predictive processes. Ultimately, all
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 15: that is is that the brain works to predicts of
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 15: engine and so you have expect certain beliefs and expectations,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 15: and they're technically referred to as priors, right, But if
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 15: you're in any kind of altered state or specific types
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 15: of auto states of consciousness, then there's basically less top
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 15: down inhibition, okay of the brain, and that releases high Well,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 15: it also means that there's less sensory constraints, so there's
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 15: a liberation of sensory experience. But you simultaneously have high confidence.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 15: Your brain will will assign high confidence to certain cry.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 15: So you're you're experiencing some ambiguous information of stimuli. But
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 15: because of this collective expectation, which you know, kind of
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 15: transmission through like pneumetics and things like this, just a
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 15: sort of subgroup has some kind of knowledge which may
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 15: confer onto this particular ambiguous information it's getting. Then that
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 15: high confidence cry will drive the actual perception in and
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 15: of itself, right, and for instance, in the you know,
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 15: kind of the europological context interested in like suddenly there
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 15: is this kind of perceptual manifestation of the great. So
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 15: everyone has this blueprint for this perceptual construction. But what
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 15: I'm what I would just like to hear from other
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 15: people is how you know, what what this?
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 8: What the other?
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 15: All these other perspectives, what do they have to say
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 15: about the neuroscientific model, But certainly how it can be
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 15: called be reconciled, as I've kind of alluded to. But
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 15: also for concrete examples, like Anthony mentioned about the miracle
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 15: of the sun. And then someone else just mentioned an
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 15: interesting one as all that if there can be like
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 15: more concrete examples of eggs acting this more autonomous way
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 15: outside of subculture knowledge, I'd be especially interested in that.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: Thanks Pascal. That really makes me think about the way
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: dreams function. You know, you have a thought, if you
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: if you can maintain a sense of awareness when you're
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: in the kind of hypnogogic state and you have a thought,
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: an idea or a word or there's some background sound,
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: it manifests instantly as a thing, as a piece of
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: dream content. So it makes me wonder whether there's something
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: very similar with the way that we perceive these entities.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 8: Yeah, sure, thank you pd.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 6: Well, first of all, Pascal, I want to address you know,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 6: you definitely hit the nail on the nail on the head.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 6: That's with the hyper object.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: That's what I was.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 6: Exactly the lines along which I was thinking in the
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 6: group chat here that what we're dealing with, our our
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 6: successive levels a hierarchy of being where each of these
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 6: objects hyper objects have their own domain within which they operate,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 6: but seem to carry some sense of autonomy that we
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 6: as as egos, as humans aren't able to perceive completely.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 6: But something that really jumped out at me was a
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 6: moment ago when Peter, when you mentioned your experience talking
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 6: about the Masonic lodge and a well hung tongue. When
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 6: we look at the old charges of Freemasonry, that language,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 6: that's where that language appears. But it talks about where
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 6: is the key to the lodge held, and it's it's
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 6: held in what they in the text is called a
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 6: bone bone box, and this is an allusion to the teeth,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 6: that the teeth is the box, and that the tongue
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 6: itself is the key to the lodge. So there's there's
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 6: like a kind of ambivalence in the way that they're discussing,
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 6: you know, secrecy, ineffability, and then prudence really knowing when
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 6: to say what what's right to say at what time.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 6: But to bring it back to this discussion we're having
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 6: on aggrigors, we see a clear allusion to the same
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 6: trope in something like the Grimorium Virum, the the True Grimoire,
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 6: which the late Jake Stratton kent. He really gave us
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 6: an incredible gift when he unpacked what's really happening in
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 6: this text. But in the opening. The magician is being
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 6: initiated as a as a child of Solomon, you know,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 6: as a son of Solomon. But Solomon passes this information
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 6: to him in this ivory chest, in that that is
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 6: is directly reflective of this bone bone box, and in
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 6: this chest is the key to this this whole magical
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 6: operation is the ability to do everything that's in this
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 6: text is contained within this bone bone box or ivory chest.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 6: And when we when we look at the text, before
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 6: you can do anything with it, before you can operate
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 6: any of these spells, you have to make contact with
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 6: a being called Skierlin, which is it's been related by
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 6: some scholars to the Holy Guardian Angel and the Abremolin workings,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 6: which is the idea that the Holy Guardian Angel, we
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 6: can think of it as our personal damon, but you're
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 6: making contact with with it, and through that contact he
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 6: becomes this mercurial emissiary that then gives you access to
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 6: all of these other spirits that have the capabilities to
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 6: perform the operations in the rest of the spells. But
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 6: Skerlin is very similar, very much like what we're talking
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 6: about here, as an aggregre. This this this figure that
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 6: that must be conjured up contact with which must be made.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 6: But once that happens, we could we could discuss it
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 6: in psychological or magical terms. We could say, once that happens,
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 6: it mobilizes the contents of the unconscious, and all of
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 6: a sudden we have access to these denizens of beings.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 6: Is uh the ecology of souls to borrow a term
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 6: from McKenna, But yeah, all of this seems very relevant
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 6: and it also for me, you know, I touched on
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 6: this earlier. You know, it's very common, especially today when
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 6: we're talking aboutres to discuss them in contradistinct to gods. Right,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 6: Gods exists whether we feed them or not. They they
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 6: they persist aggrigors. The moment we stop feeding them, they disappear,
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 6: and that's a common trope that we see discussed in
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 6: in contemporary magical mystical circles. But it's really starting to
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 6: look much different for me in that maybe it's not
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 6: so much this this thing that just disappears when we
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 6: stop feeding it, and maybe there is a little bit
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 6: more involving the the the self, you know, putting this
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 6: some skin in the game, right, that we are encountering
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 6: self as other. But once that happens, it kind of
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 6: unlocks this door that allows emissiaries of the unconscious to
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 6: come through and communicate information that consciously we don't have
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 6: access to, almost like designated messengers. We've designated this projection
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 6: unconsciously to bring us something into consciousness. So all of
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 6: this is really making me, really making me reconsider and
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 6: reevaluate the picture of the aggregor, especially as it's being
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 6: treated in our current MILU.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: Thank you, PD Lee. You want to talk about the
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: aggre versus the damon?
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 10: Okay, yes, pull in a couple of other things as well,
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 10: So I won't draw your attention to the fact that
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 10: in the Pythagorean tradition, and especially in the Golden Verses
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 10: of Pythagoras, there have been many translations of the Golden
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 10: Verses of Pythagoras, and so the matter has got a
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 10: little bit confused. But there's a specific part of those
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 10: verses which is quite late on, you know it, and
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 10: it appears when it starts to speak about the turmoil
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 10: and strife that ordinary mortals tend to experience. There's a
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 10: section where it passes on to stating something which comes
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 10: quite well together with I think it was PD Newman
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 10: PD who's put a comment in the chat saying, all
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 10: the gods are present in Zeus, and if we go
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 10: into the Golden Versus, O Father Zeus, you could deliver
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 10: mankind from all their evils or from all their ills,
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 10: if only you could show unto them they're inner iromon.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 10: So at that particular point in the text part it
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 10: specifically brings us to attend to this idea that the
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 10: iomon is something which exists not just beyond or for
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 10: each individual, but within each person. So it's almost like
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 10: has been said the Hga, the Holy Guardian Angel, that
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 10: sort of parable. It's an aspect of the self. And
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 10: if you if you're familiar with the Golden Verses themselves,
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 10: it concludes with the final line, well, the penultimate line
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 10: and then the final line. And having put aside your body,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 10: you will enter the purest Atha and you shall become
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 10: as a god, immortal, incorruptible, and death has no more
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 10: power over you. So that's the aim, that's the goal,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 10: that's the end of that process of the of the
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 10: Golden Versus. Zeus is the one that brings the idea
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 10: to the to the thymon, that which is within the self.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 10: So there's a sort of thing hinted at here that
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 10: implies that the work of each individual is to undertake
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 10: that work, to undertake that work for that specific outcome.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 10: So if you apply that that now to everything we've
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 10: been talking about with regards to the thymon, as I've
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 10: put in the chat earlier, I understand thymon as an
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 10: individual consciousness. So it's almost the ultimate goal of each
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 10: individual is to embody that viomon. You are, you are
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 10: the one who will be the viomon. And so at
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 10: the end of this I'm also looking at that if
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 10: you have a collective of individuals who are undertaking that
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 10: work together, yes, you can say that, then that then
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 10: generates an aggregor. And that aggregor, being linked to the
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 10: original idea of watchfulness, means that the more that the
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 10: consciousness is heightened through the process of people undertaking this work,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 10: you then generate a more powerful battery of watches upon mankind.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 10: So this then generates the idea of the vimon and
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 10: generates the work of the vimon in conjunction with the
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 10: entire concept of an aggregor. I don't think, as we've
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 10: keep saying, I don't think this is a good or
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 10: a bad thing. I think it's a positive thing if
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 10: you frame it within the context of what I'm saying,
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 10: the more of a heightened awareness and consciousness raisers, and
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 10: the duty is that each of those undertaking the great work,
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 10: however you want to call it, end up being watches
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 10: of mankind. You obviously, through that process, have to take
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 10: on board all of the problems of mankind in order
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 10: to do that and be a watch. To be a
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 10: watcher over it means you must be more and more
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 10: aware of the fundamental natures of mankind and the problems
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 10: that we tend to fall into. So I would also
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 10: add to that that an aggregor can also be generated
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 10: through a tradition. An aggregor can be generated through transmission.
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 10: So it exists beyond the collective in that sense, but
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 10: it's also generated generated by the collective. So a tradition
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 10: exists beyond the people inside it. A religion exists beyond
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 10: the people inside it, but it's generated by the people
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 10: inside it because you need to interact with it in
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 10: order for it to have continuity. So in that sense,
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 10: you know, people are consecrated into traditions, people are trans
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 10: have transmission passed through tradition. You might be you know,
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 10: consecrated as a priest, for example, within a tradition. And
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 10: also you have ancestral egrigors. That's another aspect of how
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 10: agrigor is formed through through our ancestral links, and that's
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 10: another type of agrigor. I think that's it really hopefully that's.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: He said you didn't want to get into morphic resonance.
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: But it also reminds me of you know, you have
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: Turing's idea of morphogenetic fields, and then Rupert Sheldrake talking
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: about well he Churing talks about morphogenesis, yes, and then
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: Rubert Sheldrakes talks about morphic resonance. And it's almost like
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: the body and the spirit together, those two kind of concepts,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: I think, but it really makes me think about what
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: a alchemy, which I know you also know a lot about.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: But also the car in Egyptian idea of the soul,
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: that we have this vital essence and it is like
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: that kind of our chemical process of purifying and refining
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: the vital essence so that it has volition in the afterlife,
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: and that car needs to be fed. That car is
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: a hungry spirit. You have to house it in a statue,
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: you have to have an offering table and make your
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: offerings to it. So what do you think about the
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: relationship between that and the car?
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 10: Right, I see the cars as been something of a
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 10: lower nature. It's almost like an intermediary phase of that process.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 10: It's more like it's more like, you know, we keep
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 10: talking about the agrigor as being like a kind of
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 10: almost like a hu has a hungry element to it. Well,
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 10: as I understand it, the car sort of belongs to that,
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 10: that aspect, or that level of it. Hence the reason
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 10: why you know, you you have traditions where you even
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 10: with Father Christmas, you know, you give him a sherry
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 10: and a mince pie. You know, you keep you're keeping
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 10: Father Christmas sort of alive, aren't you?
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 5: By doing that and.
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 10: Feeding feeding almost like the ag agragoric car of the
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 10: idea of Santa. But I think, I think how it
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 10: works is is that is that we move beyond that level,
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 10: we become detached from that level. It's almost like in
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 10: the same way as we we we need to nourish
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 10: our physical body while we're here, the car itself needs nourishment,
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 10: but it reaches a point where it goes beyond. I
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 10: don't know fully answered your question with that now.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: But I suppose one thing I would say then is
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 1: that with egregor creation, you can create an Eggregor by
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: accident or for malevolent purposes, or you could create a
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: nice friendly egregorl like Kasper the friendly ghost or something.
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 10: As I said earlier, I think egregors are just a
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 10: function of consciousness full stop. I think it's a sort
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 10: of It's just the way consciousness interacts with aspects of itself.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 10: Sos are created, you know, thought forms we keep talking about,
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 10: like how something becomes manifest or how something becomes objectively real.
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 10: You mentioned the idea of dreams, you know, how something
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 10: actually manifests inside the dream. And of course, those who
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 10: maybe have been doing magical paths or magical work that
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 10: type of thing might testify to experiences they've had in
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 10: their own lives where things that were just idea is
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 10: end up becoming actual realities. But I think this is
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 10: something we do all the time. I think mankind does
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 10: it all the time. We feed ideas, and ideas do
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 10: indeed become realities very very often, sometimes startling way and
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 10: sometimes in a very subtle way. So I don't think
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 10: there is much of a difference between the objective and
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 10: the subjective on many levels.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, thank you, Lee. Well we've been going for quite
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: a while now, so I reckon, we we'll like wrap
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: it up. It's turning six o'clock here, so maybe seven
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: more minutes. We can always do part two. Who wanted
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: to Pascal? Are you back yet? Now? He went to
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: the toilet, Batuan.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 8: I'm here, I'm here, I'm here.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: Oh it's here, here's here.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 8: Sorry, sorry, sorry.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 15: I really just would love to pick up a little
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 15: bit on what Lee said, or rather actually ask. I
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 15: think there are two, two just questions I'd like to
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 15: ping back and to people, and one of them directed
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 15: at Lee, because I am really desiring for some kind
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 15: of integration of the whole cognitive neuroscience thing and what
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 15: everyone else is saying here because I don't believe them
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 15: usually exclusive. So one thing is the idea of the watchers,
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 15: and how fascinating that is that actually, what I'm saying
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 15: about the predicted grossing model of Ega Gores can very
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 15: easily link back to the very origin point of the
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 15: idea of the which is the Enochian idea of the watchers.
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 8: And and then of course this idea of some of
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 8: this sense, this this perennial human sense of being watched.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 15: And there being other agents, which obviously in a kind
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 15: of an extremist is this is this paranoid, paranoid hallucinatory
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 15: sense that if you feel you're being watched and maybe
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 15: in a climate of you know, cultural oppression or something,
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 15: then it can because it affects the nervous system in
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 15: a way, it's such it become anxious, et cetera. It
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 15: can change it such that you can be predisclosed to
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 15: hallucinitary thing is consistent with the idea. Hence you see eyes,
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 15: you you've beat you sense agents with eyes watching you.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 15: So anyway, I'd love for someone to riff on that,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 15: like maybe the climate of the time of when the
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 15: watchers as developed as an idea in the first place,
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 15: but also the idea of what Lee was talking about
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 15: in terms which was very alluded to, and I wanted
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 15: to expand on it in terms of the the idea
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 15: that the I mean initially you said about the different
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 15: parts or networks of the brain potentially being something which
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 15: can be considered like an aggregorg and how consciousness communicates
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 15: with itself, and so that just obviously alluded to the
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 15: idea of you know, this reconciliation of the brain and
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 15: the idea of the areg the two things.
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 10: Thank you, Okay, would you like me to just quickly
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 10: answer that or input on that. Yeah, okay, So yeah,
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 10: So in terms of what you were saying about regions
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 10: of the brain, I mean, it's like we have synapses,
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 10: we have dendra, we have trees, we have branches, you know.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 10: So each each leaf is an expression, each branch is
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 10: an expression, you know. So and they all but they're
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 10: all into communicative So I think that that's sort of
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 10: what I was meaning by the fact that's certain I
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 10: keep linking this idea of agrigor watcher and aggregate. I mean,
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 10: it sounds similar, you know, etymologically, it's not meant to
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 10: be related, but I've always seen the two concepts as
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 10: being usefully related if you regard those two words aggregate
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 10: and agregor. So you have the idea that patterns and
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 10: even even numbers, even mathematical formula like forms of aggregre
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 10: forms of patterning or bringing or bringing or clustering entire
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 10: things or numerical sequences together. I don't know if I've
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 10: if I've fully expressed that or answered that properly. But
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 10: but the but the idea of of watches, you were
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 10: talking about the the watches, and sometimes you were you
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 10: were seeing it as maybe something negative or something it
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 10: could be something positive as well. So I think there's
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 10: also the concept with the Diomon or in other traditions,
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 10: the holy guardian angel as being something that watches over
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 10: you as well. So you there's also the fact that
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 10: you may be feeling on occasions that you have a
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 10: benevolent watcher or something which saves you from disaster, or
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 10: as I've heard it expressed, you know, tells you exactly
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 10: what not to do, rather than what to do.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 8: This is.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 10: The pushing of the agragoric nature of the self, something
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 10: which is beyond ourselves already on a larger scale, what
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 10: people call even God could be an awareness or a
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 10: conscious awareness of the fact that we are already beyond
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 10: ourselves and we are already watching ourselves. So that's also
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 10: something to think about. Something to keep in mind happens
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 10: both on an individual level. You have an aspect of
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 10: yourself which has already moved beyond yourself. You might even
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 10: call it your immortal self. And there is the aspect
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 10: of humanity which is already beyond itself. I think that
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 10: was kind of alluded to in Bohn's Shiva experience slightly
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 10: as well. So I think I think that's my view,
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 10: and anyway, the questions really.
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you Lee, thank you Pascal. Okay, so we got
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: bat One, Peter and Vasilios bat One, are you still muted?
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 13: That's a really incredible discussion, and thankfully for finishing on
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 13: Shiva because I'm going to give two examples. One of
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 13: them was in my early DMT experiences over ten years ago.
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 13: In my second time with d MT, I went through
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 13: this tunnel and then I saw this figure with an
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 13: elephant head. And by that time, like I I was,
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 13: I was an atheist, didn't believe in anything was raised
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 13: in Islamic culture. I had no idea about Hinduism. He
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 13: had not even heard about what Hinduism was. And following week,
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 13: I had the urge to go to Camden Town and
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 13: then I was walking around, What am I doing here?
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 13: What brought me here? I literally had the calling to
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 13: go to the Camden Town, which is part of London
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 13: where a lot of Indian shops are present. As I
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 13: was passing by one of these Indian shops. I saw
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 13: on its wall a drape with the with the with
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 13: the medit with the with the elephant had it being
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 13: in meditation and then it had six arms. And I
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 13: did see this elephant that being with six arms as well.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 13: I was like, oh my god, that is the thing
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 13: that I saw on DMC. So I ran into the shop,
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 13: asked the guy what this is and then he told
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 13: me that it's called she and Ghanesh. And then I
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 13: started doing research on Ghanesh. I went to d MT
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 13: and extras forums. I started finding out about what Hinduism was,
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 13: and then I found so many trip reports where people
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 13: without having any prior knowledge about, you know, Hinduism, they
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 13: were experiencing these Hindu gods. I was like, how can you,
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 13: how can you explain that?
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 3: That was my.
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 13: Initiation into you know, questioning like these do these gods
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 13: are part of elective imagination because they exist because they
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 13: figure is imagined by tall millions of people across multiple
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 13: thousands of years. Or is it because they actually exist
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 13: and we tap into their dimension? And another experience that
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 13: that was shared on the d MT weven. The last Sunday,
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 13: so I worked with with the Shamani practitioner called Stefano
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 13: from Peru who runs anentiogens Peru and he takes people
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 13: to a lost civilization of ancient Perus and their ritual sites.
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 13: So it literally takes you to these ancient sites and
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 13: then he serves you d MT. And in he he
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 13: showed us two testimonies, out of which one was by
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 13: Graham Hancock, the author of you know, multiple books. Basically
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 13: Peruvians they believed in one of the gods they worshiped
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 13: was called Viracocha, which was this octopus being with tentacles
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 13: known as for you know, healing people with its sentacles,
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 13: and this one specific ancient altar that he took people to. Literally,
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 13: Graham hancocks of this octopus being coming and like and
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 13: fixing his migraines. Graham has been, you know, experiencive magnets
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 13: all all over throughout his life, and he said he
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 13: in this testimony, he says that he's tried everything, but
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 13: this was the only of the code, the most powerful
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 13: healing on his migraines. He literally had didn't have any
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 13: migrants for three months. Not only he saw this octopus
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 13: really med tentacles, but like the octopus been as if
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 13: like it knew exactly what part of his brain was
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 13: causing the migraines, and he was just like healing those parts.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 13: And another person, which this is like I really can't
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 13: get my head around this is this this woman who
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 13: was paralyzed, you know, half of her body like from
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 13: bottom down was paralyzed and she couldn't move for several years.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 13: She came to Stefano's retreat on wheelchair. After twenty five
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 13: days of working and going to that sacred site and
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 13: meeting this octopus being several times, she started walking so
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 13: and and she even today she walks like and for me,
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 13: it's like, you know, it just makes me question, like
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 13: do this do we as humans like have the power
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 13: and collective magic to put this energy to these ancient
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 13: sizes or these ancient size are some sort of like
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 13: gateway into the quantum field that potentially is you know,
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 13: populated by these you know, other worldly intelligences. So that
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 13: is my mom my, you know what I'm really really
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 13: fascinated about. And then since I've heard so many people
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 13: you know, mentioning morphic fields and morphic resonance, so I
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 13: just want.
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 8: To know, share this with you, and I will love
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 8: to hear your thoughts on this. Did these people know
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 8: about Vita Kolcha beforehand?
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 13: Including probably not the one woman didn't know about it,
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 13: but Hankock knew about it. But so that that's like,
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 13: you know what really fascinates me. So yes, you know,
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 13: maybe they might have thought about, you know, Vidra Koca Dan.
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 13: But another example that in my experience, like I had
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 13: no idea about Khan. I had know the only religion
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 13: I was raised with it was Islam, and I didn't
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 13: know anything about like you know, elephant head it being.
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 13: And their example is like again, over a decade ago,
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 13: we had the DMT ceremony in London and then I
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 13: I the room we were in turned into this Aztec
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 13: and Mayan artwork and everything in the room like I
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 13: could feel this was a dimension that Aztecs and mines
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 13: also tapped into. And then they saw this artwork, they
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 13: saw this, these fractals, and then upon their return to
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 13: default mode of consciousness after the substance took sisty in
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 13: the system, they carved these visuals on the temple walls.
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 13: Later on, when in the morning I talked to the
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 13: shaman and then the shaman told him I shared this
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 13: experience with the shaman, and then shaman started smiling and
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 13: I was like, look, why are this man? He was like,
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 13: but we just came back from Mexico and these dmt
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 13: is extracted from the plants we collected on the Aztec
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 13: and Mayan land, and I was like, wow, like they
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 13: do the plants like have some sort of like intelligence.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 13: And then you know they're just like almost like what
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 13: are the chances of like, you know, smoking a DMT
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 13: that comes from dead land and experiencing what those civilizations also,
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 13: you know, expressing their art. If anybody has any thoughts
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 13: on these kind of morphic grisons, I will love to heart.
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: And that's it makes me think of One of the
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 1: women I've worked with on my retreats is called Maria Maragu.
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: She's a Greek scholar who researches ancient Greek etomology and myphology.
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: And she's she's written a book about the Elfsinian mysteries,
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: like everything we know about the Elf Sinian mysteries is
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: thisstic And she mentioned the fact that one of the
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: visitors or one of the participants in the Elfsinian Mysteries
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 1: went into the Telesterion blind and after his encounter with
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 1: the divinities, was healed and walked out of the Telesterian
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 1: been able to see. And obviously this could be propaganda,
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: it might not be true, but one of the things
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: it makes me think of because I'm very interested in
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: how a dream can heal someone, because people do report
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: spontaneous healing events happening in dreams, And one of my
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 1: thoughts about.
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 9: It is that.
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: When we're in a lucid dream in particular, and we
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 1: experience something that feels real, our body responds to it
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: as if it is real. Like there's been evidence to
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: show that athletes, if they practice a particular sport in
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: lucid dream states, that they actually get better at it.
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: And if you think about the condition of lucid dreaming,
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 1: it's where your frontal cortex is activated, where you have
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: all the genes switched on that are implicated in homeostasis,
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: your body's natural self healing mechanisms, and you're experiencing this fantastic,
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: blissful ecstatic scene where someone heals you magically. Your body's
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: in this perfect state to provide a faith healing response.
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 1: And so I think something might be happening in the
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: way that I see it of a really deep in
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: actual experience, like that when you meet a divinity of
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: you almost have a personality split, because I think our
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: personality is like much more fragile than we necessarily and appreciate.
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: And there are cases I think of people that have
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: disassociative identity disorder where one of the personalities will have
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: an allergic response to something, but another personality doesn't have
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 1: the same response. So you can bring that other personality
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 1: to the front and the allergic response in the body
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 1: will go down. So I think that our sense of
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: self is a story, and if we are sufficiently convinced
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: that another story is possible, we can change like that.
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 13: I mean, can I just say something to this, it's
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 13: I mean I love that sense of what was Our
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 13: sense of self is a story?
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is. You're told, you're told the story,
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 1: and you just go along with it. And this is
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: when we have like big transformative experiences, like people have
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: talked about initiation or you know, people go on meditation
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 1: retreat to have the opportunity to have a blank slate.
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: However it's achieved, and it can be through fear or
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 1: can be through ecstasy. I think there does seem to
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: be like a strong emotional necessity to it, you know,
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: like it's it's not just it can't be an intellectual thing.
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 1: It has to be a very very strong emotional thing,
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: I think personally.
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 13: I mean what you said, like, I mean, it's a
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 13: very simple thing. I always questioning, like, you know what,
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 13: because there's like the wet dreams. You know, you have
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 13: an auto dream, you know, and then you wake up
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 13: exactly yeah, you know your body reacted. You're like, how
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 13: is that even possible? You know, how is that even possible? Like, yeah,
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 13: that's it's incredible.
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: Well, also, the very subtle becomes quite intense in dream
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: states as well, because we're always picking up on sensory information.
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: So like a subtle arousal like the sheet rubbing the
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: tip of your helmet could be a fantastic or gasmic
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: experience varience in the dream stept because you're much more sensitive.
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: So I think that's part of it. Anyway, Vasilios, let's
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 1: get to you.
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 4: Hi, and thanks for this fascinating use p these analogy
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 4: with the key in the ivory box. I think that
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 4: the concept of resonance is the most not only morphic resonance,
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 4: but also there is what they call the stracrastications the caltications.
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 4: There have all kinds of resonances that could explain the
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 4: appearance of from different frequencies. So if the frequency organized things,
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 4: which it does, then I think that this is a
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 4: key concept for if if we, if someone gol have
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 4: studied this aggregor phenomenon or concept or whatever, and then
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 4: I don't want to say more because we are out
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 4: of time. I would like to invite you to join
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 4: the Guilia Commission, which is a kind of a neglig
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 4: if in the or a collective hive mind of scientists
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 4: that they go beyond the post but beyond the materialistic
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 4: paradigm and academics, but not only any kinds of studies,
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 4: any kinds of research in this new kind of science
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 4: that is where we are kind of evoking and we
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 4: are serving, not leading or promoting. It will be a
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 4: nice place now, it will be good goods in kinicity
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 4: because in two or three weeks we're going to launch
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 4: this Consciousness Initiative Group web page. You can create your
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 4: own web page and create your own group and go
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 4: there discussactine materials and all that. It's an act of
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 4: service from a scientific medical network and it's not something
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 4: that you have adhere to ideology or or we practice
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 4: or anything. You are free whatever you want. It is
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 4: it really my selim like structure. And like Raisa as
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 4: Sill you put it. So for that and being grateful,
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 4: I salute you, and I hope and we can continue
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 4: this into into this forum that is Sarah knows very well.
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for cilias p D.
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so we've kind of with all of these different
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 6: testimonies observed the emergence of an aggregor in real time
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 6: here and and we really see this. But to harmon,
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 6: you talked about Ganesha and this encounter with this elephant,
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 6: and Peter mentioned the the Masonic qualities and we got
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 6: into ivory and bone bone box. Well, when I went
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 6: through the fourth degree in Scottish Rict Freemasonry, the thing
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 6: you're presented with is a balustrade. This a barrier that
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 6: keeps you from progressing into the sacred. Now, the function
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 6: of Ganesha, right is to overcome obstacles. He helps us
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 6: overcome obstacles. Well, in this Masonic degree, in the fourth degree,
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 6: you're presented with an ivory key right now, Remember Ganesha
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 6: is often depicted with one of his tusks missing. Where
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 6: did that tusk go? We don't know, but we do
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 6: know that we have a key made from ivory that
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 6: opens this balustrade, just like Ganiesha opens the way, just
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 6: like Skierlen opens the way. The holy Guardian Angel opens
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 6: the way. But this, this picture is gradually forming in
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 6: my head of of of an aggrigor. We have quite
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 6: literally evoked here this morning or morning for me, I
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 6: don't know. We're all over the place, but but this
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 6: this ivory key that opens the way to the sacred.
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 4: I think.
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 6: We haven't just been discussing the aggregor. I think we've
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 6: created one.
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 1: And we need to do is turn around three times
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 1: to our left side and say some fifty eight.
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 6: That's right, that's right.
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, great, that's only got a final comment.
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 13: Yes, I just wanted to say, because PD just mentioned
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 13: something incredible, which is like the removal obstacle. What I
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 13: find really interested in my research, I found out that
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 13: people who experienced Ganesh without having any prior experience of Hinduism,
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 13: they always ninety percent of the trip reports were like
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 13: people reported seeing Ghanesh at the beginning of the DMT trip.
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 13: As if you know in DMT where people say like
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 13: breaking through, you know, breaking through the whale to the
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 13: other world, as if like when you see Ghanesh, that's
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 13: an indication that hello, I'm about to take you to
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 13: the other side. I'm lifting the whale, you know. So
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 13: And for me that was like when I found that
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 13: and then found out that thousands of people have experienced
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 13: Ganesh not only in the DMT, but at the beginning
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 13: of the trip, I was like, Okay, Hindus were up
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 13: to something, you know, that's so much thing was psychedelic.
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 13: They have also like you know, discovered these things and
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 13: then called them, you know, the obstacle removal, this is
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 13: the Ganish. Other thing that I found interesting is in
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 13: my experience, I saw Ganesh's trunk going through my body
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 13: and healing me. I then found out so many other
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 13: people who have experienced the same thing, where like the
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 13: trunk goes through your mouth, It went through my mouth
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 13: and people I saw people reporting going through their mouth
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 13: and then sucking the negative energy. The same thing with
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 13: Vidra Koca. Its tentacles go through people's mouth and then
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 13: suck negative energy. And I can't stop but thinking that, like,
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 13: you know, a tentacle and a trunk are very very similar,
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 13: you know, so perhaps what we call its ghanash, you know,
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 13: Indians called it ghanish, Peruvians called it vidra koca. But
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 13: these otherwordly entities, they either exist out there or our
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 13: brain is capable of creating these experiences. In the end,
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 13: you know, it changes your life. That's what I you know,
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 13: focus on.
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: No, that was that reminds me of what Pascal was
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 1: talking about. How you have these kind of models and
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 1: precepts of how we perceive certain things. And I wonder
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 1: whether in a heightened sensitive state you become more aware
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 1: of your hearing and your sense of smell, and your
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: perception spreads out in a tentacle type fashion, and your
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: way of making sense of that is to create an
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: entity that's tenta called or trunked with big ears. And
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: then for Indians at least they had the perfect model
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 1: in their environment of elephants to base something like that.
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I think, I think the most important thing
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: is something feeling positive. And we have to create an
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 1: image to be alchemized, or we have to create a
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 1: form in order for it to have an effect on us.
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: So I guess that's why we create these images and
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 1: these symbols and these archetypes, because we have to project
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 1: our consciousness into something that can have real effects in
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: the world. Be if someone was talking about before, is
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 1: like does it have a real effect, because this is
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 1: the only thing that's required really in order for something
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: to be real. And we are all, you know, as
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 1: we can see right now, people are living in entirely
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 1: different realities and yet somehow still inhabiting the same country,
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: the same street, the same house, but are existing in
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 1: completely different realities. And I guess that's the danger of
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 1: this kind of fracturing media that we have at our
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: fingertips every day now, where we can just go off
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 1: into a rabbit hole and create a whole world for
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: ourselves very easily. And I think there's a real danger
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: actually of projecting our consciousness instead of into the real
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 1: things of nature and other people and relationships, into this
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 1: kind of like void of devices where it's you know,
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 1: we talk about feeding the aegragor it's like that's like
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: an eggra god that we're feeding with our attention constantly.
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 1: Ike talked about attention, and I think that it is
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: a good thing to move away from and have more
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 1: real world engagements oh, thank you so much to everyone
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 1: for coming along this afternoon. It's been wonderful. It's getting
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: a bit dark in Istanbul, so I shall bid you
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 1: all good night, good evening, good day. And I've recorded
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 1: this and I will send everyone or I'll make available
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 1: the the link and you can download it and if
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 1: any of the other panelists want to share it on
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 1: their YouTube channels or wherever you want to share it
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 1: is absolutely fine. Thank you so much. It's been great.
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 10: Thank you, Thank you hyek.
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 8: That awesome