Latest / Fractional Frequency / Guard Your Humanness: Leading Consciously Through the AI Shift with Kim-Elisha Proctor
Transcript
- Amy Crook: Hello? Erin Todus: Hello? Amy Crook: How is everybody doing today? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Good. Erin Todus: Fantastic. Amy Crook: Excellent, excellent. I'm so excited to have ⁓ my friend ⁓ Kim Alicia joining us today. ⁓ I've had the pleasure of working with Kim Alicia in the past. ⁓ she's a very strategic and thoughtful HR leader who helps companies navigate growth, transformation, anything that's high stakes change and has worked in multiple global tech environments. Predominantly her background has been supporting IT and engineering teams. And she brings a uniquely operational approach to people leadership that I've always really admired. She's advised executives at companies like eBay, PayPal, and Glassdoor. Her expertise spans organizational design, talent strategy, executive coaching, and people operations across teams, across the world. And lately she's been at the forefront of ⁓ deploying AI into human work, serving as a thought leader and advocate for the balance between efficiency, speed, and authentic human ingenuity. So welcome, Kimelisha. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Thanks, Amy. Nice to be here. Amy Crook: Good, I'm so excited. And the funny thing is, ⁓ Kim Alicia and I ⁓ at different times ⁓ both went through the same ⁓ MIT business school course. you're still going through it, right, actually? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Today was the last day. I just turned on my last homework, so I'm done. Amy Crook: Okay. Congrats, that's awesome. ⁓ so we've been swapping stories ⁓ on the learnings that we had there and ⁓ even though we've been in and around technical teams for a long time, ⁓ some of the more like core principles of how technology works, what data it needs to be effective, was so interesting for me personally, and I'm sure we'll go into that a little bit more later in the conversation. But I guess I wanted to start ⁓ With you, Kimelisha, talking about what HR leaders need to think through as they're implementing AI. And I would love to hear from you, like what was the moment that you realized that this conversation needs to start with a little bit of self-reflection? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah, thanks, Amy. You know, ⁓ it was probably two and a half years ago, just coming off of some big projects at Glassdoor. And I remember sitting on the leadership team meeting for the people team and learning that ⁓ our VP of iTunes Security was gonna come in and talk to us about Chat GPT. And at the time I was just like, ⁓ you know, this is my internal dialogue. Amy Crook: Hmm. Yeah. ⁓ Kim-Elisha Proctor: Another tool that I have to learn, like, you know, it's kind of like when you're introducing a new tool. Let's say, like in the HR team, you're learning workday for the first time. It's like, okay, I have to learn this new tool. And so at the time, it's like, okay, I'm gonna learn this thing called Chat GPT. It's another tool I'm gonna have to use. I'm gonna be asked, how am I gonna use this in my work? Like da-da-da-da. Same thing that happens with every new tool that comes along. And so I remember sitting in that call. And learning about Chat GPT for the first time and feeling my own kind of like interesting and lean enough, like nervousness about it. And it wasn't like the nervousness of, ⁓ I have to learn a new tool, I'm gonna mess up, but more this question of like, wow, what this isn't a tool. This is really something else. And ⁓ that was the first time that it kind of prompted me that there was something different that was going to happen here. and it was gonna call for something different from our leaders. and the question is, are we going to rise up and meet that challenge and that question? Or is it gonna be just another tool that we implement? That's each age our leaders and companies choice. Amy Crook: Yeah. Yeah, it's such a great point because I think for the longest time, ⁓ rightly or wrongly, companies have valued employees based on their output. And now you have a tool that can weigh surpass the output of a human. ⁓ so how And and we're now looking at those like critical thinking and behavioral skills, which some would argue, ⁓ and some do argue all the time that they have always been as important. that you are if you're in a position of leadership, you're in a position of like decision making and thinking. ⁓ but with this very heavy output tool ⁓ and how we've been used to thinking about people's productivity. How is that all shaping what leaders feel about the AI movement and the implementation that's taking place into different organizations? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah, I mean I'm hearing several different levels of the conversation. You know, there's the top level of how am I going to use AI in my work? How am I going to lead my team through it? There's the ⁓ company level of how am I going to implement AI for my products and for my customers. Those are the conversations I hear a lot, but there's a subtext that I hear underneath most of those conversations. And it's one I think of fear. and it comes back to ⁓ I had was recently on a coaching call, over a hundred coaches, different companies. And the thing that really stood out to me is the question of what is my human value now? Right. We hear about so many companies that are letting go of thousands of people because of AI. And I think there it's stirring up this existential fear of what does it mean for me as human, as a leader, to be valuable, especially in capitalism and in the companies we lead, it are we're usually looking at profit. That's our you know, ibitata is the the golden standard, right? And it just it has me thinking about this existential fear, I think that is under these conversations. Of are we stopping to really understand before we get into strategy and how we use this tool? Are we really thinking about what is human, uniquely human, that adds context to our work, to our company? Right? If I look at a company like Glassdoor, where we were both at most recently, I think a lot of that human texture was around the values that we had and how we worked together. Amy Crook: Mm. Kim-Elisha Proctor: There's something very real of walking into an office and seeing your company's colors and values and how people are sitted, are seating together that really forms kind of that human texture. And so I think it was interesting for us as leaders is before we jump into these conversations, what does it mean to be human at your company? What is that human texture you're not going to sacrifice? So that when you are still leading for profit and hopefully positive societal impact, we're also thinking about our employees and customers and the the human impact and legacy we want to have as leaders at a company. Amy Crook: I think that's such a great point. How how do you advise the leaders that you speak with to guard that humanness at a time where measurement metrics don't seem to factor that in? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah. I think it starts with, I think, you know, there's the the philosophical question that gets batted around of like what does it mean to be human, right? How do you know it's human ⁓ or you pass a Turing test, right? Like the the age-old question. ⁓ I have a different approach to this. I think each of us as leaders needs to decide what does it mean for me to be human? Amy Crook: Mm. Kim-Elisha Proctor: I think there's such a trap that I know I've fallen into, especially being a woman, being raised in the West, that, you know, my value is based on my title, on how much money I make, ⁓ you know, what is the size of the house I have or the car I have, right? And I think now is an interesting time for us to separate what is our value as a human being. It's not the productivity we have, but what is it I bring to my own work? What is, what do I enjoy about being human, about my work? Right. For me, ⁓ being an executive coach, I still remember the day that I had ⁓ a just a really great one-on-one coaching conversation. And it wasn't even framed as coaching. And it's like that was juicy to me. Like if I could live my life at work and have those conversations every hour, I would be so pumped up and excited to go to work. Right. So I know for me, being human, I want to have those deep, rich conversations at work to think about those complex problems. And that's what's important to me. The other thing which is oddly important to me is like I need variety in my work. So sometimes I don't mind sitting down at an Excel spreadsheet. And doing a really mundane data entry. I actually think I'm with AI. If you take that away from me, I'm gonna have to find a new outlet. Right. Like I still it would be something AI could do better, but I still want to do it because I enjoy it, right? So that's for me what is being human and really enjoying and understanding what do I, what's the value I want to give at work, right? So changing that equation. Amy Crook: Yeah. Erin Todus: you Kim-Elisha Proctor: And us thinking about ⁓ what do we enjoy about our work and what ⁓ enjoyment do we want to make sure we still maintain as we go through AI transformations. Erin Todus: I think I love the bit about just the human ingenuity because at its core, these AI platforms are pulling from the base of knowledge that's already published and already exists. It is not coming up with new ideas. And I think that new ideas can come from some of the most mundane or quiet little moments to your point. I think about doing data analysis myself in the past and sometimes the little sparks happen in the midst of that. And so there's certainly a balance to be had ⁓ without losing the opportunity for that. And I want to shift the conversation a little bit to the crucial and kind of critical conversations that we have in HR. And we were talking earlier about there are a few conversations that are critical or a few types of conversations that are critical for HR to initiate in this time. Will you tell us a little bit about what those are? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah, I was I was thinking about again, going back to I think most of the conversations I hear or the topics are, you know, AI strategy and AI implementation. ⁓ how is this going to impact our work or the products we offer? And so I was thinking about this. ⁓ for me, ⁓ I think this is an interesting time for HR leaders to step into a new space. ⁓ to not just think about the employees or the people. But for us to care about the work and the workforce and how it gets done. And I think this is a space where AI is going to be deeply and richly needed. ⁓ But to do that, I think there are three conversations I would encourage teams to have. One, let's talk about the existential fear in the room and what do we believe about human worth? And what are we do willing to defend? under profit pressure? Like what are the the values that we will stand up for ⁓ no matter what? The second one is how are we going to lead? this is a time for us as leaders to create psychological safety in our organizations to stand up ⁓ to have the vulnerable conversations. So that would be second. And then third, what are we going to build as a team, as a company, that we're willing to answer for as humans? ⁓ and that at the end of the day, we feel like we are doing something that elevates human potential and doesn't decrease it. So those three conversations. What do we believe? How are we going to lead through this? And what are we going to build? Erin Todus: Yeah, that first one is just so powerful to me to address the fear in the room. I have not seen that done in practice. I'm so it's I'm so sick of the at this time, we don't anticipate a need to reduce headcount as a part of this implementation. Like you just you hear that and it's empty, empty words falling on ⁓ on on worried ears. And I think that's a an amazing suggestion, recommendation, call to action. Kimalisha, what does it look like in your research or studies? What do you think great looks like in designing for both humans and AI to coexist at work? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah, so ⁓ in my MIT program, I learned this great term called empathy engineering. And I just I love this. ⁓ I think it it marries the technical and the relational piece of being a leader. So let's think about it this way. ⁓ let's say, you know, TA acquisition, right? ⁓ you are moving candidates through a funnel. And so I'm I'm sure both of you in your sleep can write the process diagram of what it's like to open a funnel, get someone through final offer. You know those steps, right? ⁓ Write it in your sleep. That is the technical process, right? I need to contact this candidate within five days, let them know it's the technical piece of how do you actually do the work. So that's the engineering. What happens if you add empathy to that? And what I mean is, how what is happening to the employee, the recruiter, and to the interviewer on the other side? What do they need in this process? How are they being impacted? And if you look at this through AI, Okay, great. So we add AI to sort through resumes to get the top five. What is the impact of that to the recruiter? What skills are we increasing for them? What skills are we decreasing for them? What are we giving them more time to do? What are we giving them less time to do? So it's really understanding as we go through this AI transformation and AI does more work. How do we design for the human in the loop and the impact of that work to human beings? ⁓ Are we giving them more potential or are we decreasing their potential? So I think that's one of the most valuable things that I learned through this MIT program is thinking about both sides as we go through AI of like, what's the human in the loop and what's the AI? Erin Todus: And there's so much logic to that when I think about the concept of human productivity. People are more productive when they feel engaged, valued, supported. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah. Erin Todus: And you mentioned earlier, Kim Elisha, about psychological safety. I want to spend a little bit more time on that. What are some practical ways that you think leaders can build psychological safety and upskilling pathways that keep their people engaged rather than threatened by AI? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah. ⁓ so the term psychological safety, just to so people know, it was termed by ⁓ Amy and Edmondson. and it's this shared belief among team members that ⁓ we create spaces for interpersonal risks to be taken. ⁓ it's safe to speak up, it's safe to ask questions, to report mistakes, ⁓ to propose new ideas and not to be scared. That you're going to be punished for it, like you're not going to get promoted or you're going to be humiliated afterwards, right? ⁓ so I think about psychological safety in this time of AI, especially as leaders. we can't promise that we're not gonna lay off roles, right? Work changes. So we can't promise job safety. ⁓ I think no longer can we promise even job comfort. There's just too much that is changing, both personally, I think, for people in this day and age. And then on the world context and locally, I mean, each nation has their own troubles they're going through, and then on the world stage. So in this context, what as we as human beings, how can we create safety for one another? ⁓ and I think As leaders, we can do this by one acknowledging that it is unsafe. And where we can being able to share and communicate, how are we doing? ⁓ being willing as a leader to say, hey, I did this thing with AI and I screwed up. It didn't give me what I wanted, right? I created this process ⁓ and I was hoping it would give me five times the better candidates, and I designed something incomplete and it. didn't work out the way I wanted to. It was a mistake. But I've learned and this is what I'm going to do differently. Right. I think that's one of the biggest ways that leaders can show up is share, share this journey because honestly, we do not know the answers right now. Right. Like, and that's, I think that's one of the traps of being a leader is we're often looked at, you have the answers, you know where we're going. And like if we look back, just what? Amy Crook: Far to it. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Six, seven years ago at COVID, we didn't know, but we figured it out. And I think it's the same thing for AI transformation now. We don't know, but we're gonna figure it out. But can we be vulnerable as we do it? And at least share what we can with employees. I think another way of psychological safety is how much transparency are you willing to share with your team about what's going on. If there is an AI transformation, are you willing to even have a share that it's happening? Or is it something that's happening in a closed room somewhere and there's conversations happening, right? I think employees are sensitive to those types of conversations. So I think creating psychological safety is probably different every company, but it does come down to what are you willing to acknowledge is going on as far as existential fear in your workforce? And are you willing to at least talk about it and not sweep it under the rug and just talk about AI strategy? Erin Todus: Yeah. Amy Crook: I think that's so valuable and sorry, I'll just have a quick thought that popped into my head that I wanted to get your perspective on. So I am a big fan of transparency. You know, if if things are changing or things are in the works, I believe, you know, there's a level of ⁓ honesty that we owe our employee population to prepare them one and you know, help them ⁓ understand the bigger picture. Like I think that's just important in general. Now when the conversation is, okay, so as an organization, this particular leadership team are looking to decrease headcount by implementing AI to take ⁓ some of these tasks ⁓ off of a human. the what I'm sensing is that the nervousness around sharing that is that we don't want to upset somebody. ⁓ or we don't want them to leave before we're ready to push them out ⁓ or whatever that might be. And I kind of I get it and I think it's very I think it's I think either way is okay, right? Because like every company is different and they're gonna decide the level of transparency that they want. I'm curious what you think, because I personally feel like the honest approach and being transparent around look, this is our goal as an organization. You know, rather than the goal being we're going to implement AI, so generic, like what for what? Like what what's the business goal? You know, so if they were truly honest, like okay, our goal Is I mean, and I think most people are smart enough to realize that the goal is increase your profits. But what does that mean in the in the organization that you're in? Should they so this is a very long way of asking you this question, should they give them that level of transparency? Is that the right thing to do from a human approach, or is it so unknown and risky that saying nothing is actually A plan and not an avoidance tactic. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah, okay, a lot to unpack there, Amy. I love it. I think you hit on it in your own opening of the question. When I hear we need to decrease headcount, I pause in in my internal dialogue as I'm listening and I think, okay, we're approaching AI as a tool. Right? AI really ⁓ it If a company wants to use this correctly, it's a transformation. But what is it in service to? What is the goal? Right? If I'm implementing AI as a tool to decrease headcount, that's not a company that is going to get the true transformation and really understand AI for the long term. Right? It's more about what are the problems that we're solving? What are the new capabilities that we're That are possible now. Right. I was talking to an engineer who ⁓ just got for the first time the power of AI, and that he was able to code something so much quicker. It allowed him to step back and have more time to really think about what is the intent and the architecture. How do I test this? And ⁓ I saw the joy on his face. when he talked about like I get to be an architect now because that's what he really wants to do. Like he enjoys coding, but having that time to really think about like what am I building? And so I would I would say the same things to leaders like if you hear like decrease headcount stop, what are we trying to accomplish? Let's start there first with the story because you're leading with the fear and not with the possibility. Maybe it still is, like the answer is we can decrease headcount. But one of the things, and this ⁓ this may be me as a fantasy HR leader, I get you know a little soft and squishy. ⁓ before we decrease the headcount, is there something else we can do with that headcount? Like are there people there that are critical talent or have promising ideas that we can unleash them in a new way and give them new opportunities? Right. Like, for example, if you go back in my career, I started out in IT and then I moved into engineering. And I had a great leader, a couple of great leaders who saw me and I moved from engineering into HR. Right. So can we as leaders be aware of our talent and look at possibilities of retraining them or giving them new opportunities? Right. I think it's just really important to understand, like again. What are we trying to accomplish? What is success? And what are we willing not ⁓ to give up as leaders? So before we say decrease headcount, what are we really trying to accomplish? Erin Todus: think it's a good reminder about ask yourself not how much money can we save, but what is possible potentially in aspirational revenue growth as a result of the new ideas, new ingenuity that could come out of creating this space. It's a strategic way to think about it. And I love the way that you framed that. And so I'm going to dive into the next piece of the conversation, Kimelisha, you. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah. One piece on that, Erin, that I think you brought up that I think is really important. A lot of the conversations around AI are about how do I implement AI in my product? How do we streamline this workflow process? It's about efficiency and productivity. I'm not hearing as much about how do I use AI to be creative and to do something different. So I love that. And I think that if we as HR leaders can Prompt more of that thinking, I think it can really change the game for AI and our organizations. So great questions. Erin Todus: It's the next phase in our own internal conversations at Strativis. It's all about how can we leverage this to scale, not how do we leverage this just to go faster at what we're already doing today. That's a given. You're not already doing that. You're behind in any context, But Kimelisha, you are working on a piece that is Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah, that's great. Erin Todus: is scheduled to be released soon. And it includes a manifesto entitled the conscious AI adaptation, which is positioned to be sort of a mirror for leaders as they interact with it. Tell us a little bit about that. And also, what do you hope that leaders see in the mirror? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah. ⁓ so I just I'm finishing this MIT program that's all about ⁓ driving business value for AI. And we had a great module that talked about human in the loop and it really got me thinking about and it it quo coincided the same time as this ⁓ coaching conversation and just a lot of fear in the room about AI. And it had me start to think about how do we use this time as a disruptor to no longer ⁓ define our personal value with the value we give at work, to change that value conversation. What is the value I want to give? Not versus the what is the value that's given to me. ⁓ And I started to think of also about the conscious company movement. and I started to think about if I was, and this is again, I do this sometime, if I was in an ideal world and I was able to, how would I want to use this time to introduce and to use AI to really transform the workplace? Consciously. ⁓ I started to think about the times that we as human beings create such beautiful work. ⁓ But then because of our own goals of it, it gets twisted. ⁓ Most recently I've been thinking about ⁓ social media and the internet. You know, if you go back to the 1980s, the internet was a bulletin board system where people would dial up. And connect with others about a topic they were interested in, right? 10-15 years later, we have Facebook, which started with connection, but then they figured out a way to monetize connection. And the like button was born. And now we have this whole era of ⁓ social media content creators as a work title influencer, right? Just thinking about that evolution and what's happened. So there's something beautiful about connecting on a bulletin board, that human texture, and now where Facebook is. And realizing that there are leaders in rooms right now that are the very early conversations that are navigating the same questions. I would imagine Facebook leaders did at one point. And so I created a manifesto that was on the structure of what do we believe? ⁓ how are we going to lead, and what are we going to create, as almost a provocation for leaders to think about what they will hold to for their own legacy as they lead at companies. ⁓ so the manifesto is high, it's challenging. and The important part isn't that ⁓ someone signs up for the manifesto. The important part is that we as leaders do our own thinking first and come up with our own manifesto about how we want to show up at this time. I think it's a really pivotal, pivotal ⁓ and amazing time to be an HR leader. And if we come to terms with our own fear and safety, that we can really stand up and lead something new and beautiful. Erin Todus: We were in a recent recording with another guest and talking about just the intention or the purpose that you bring to your life and what's at risk if you allow yourself to sort of float through your life without being intentional about that. And it comes to mind here in this moment in that your call to action, it sounds like is almost, you for people to kind of pick their heads up and to stop just pacing along with what the whatever's on the AI roadmap, right? And whatever they're getting maybe rewarded for in the moment, small productivity gains or however we're measuring this and to think about their impact long-term and the choices that they're making. It's bigger than I think people maybe realize in their own seats. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Exactly. Exactly, Erin. I I mean, yeah, using this as an opportunity to really define the next chapter and not just be a project or a tool and to think about it with intention about how do you want to leave, what do you want to create, what's the legacy and the impact of your company going to be. Yeah. Erin Todus: Yeah. So especially for HR teams, I would love your perspective on that. What does leading consciously actually look like and feel like in practice? Kim-Elisha Proctor: I would love for HR leaders right now to stand up and ⁓ have the hard conversations. Right. for example, just going back to this, the the meeting that I was in with the 100 coaches. What if every coach stopped the conversation? What if every HR leader stopped the conversation? When there is fear in the room and talked about the elephant in the room. Right? what if we consciously take responsibility and accountability for that fear and make different decisions? I mean, have most of us come to understand our own fear of AI and be comfortable with that before we rush off and do something. Right? And so I think the possibility for leaders right now ⁓ for us to really stop. What is the legacy of the company we're creating? What is the impact we want on our customers, on our employees? And how do we want to lead today? Let's have the conversation about what do we believe? What are we willing to sacrifice or not? ⁓ How are we going to lead through this? Are we going to be transparent? How can we create psychological safety? Let's talk about how we're not creating psychological safety. And then last, what we're building, will we stand up and be responsible and accountable for it? And just having those hard conversations. I don't know that these conversations would take a lot of time, but it's stopping to have that along the way, making sure that What we're building, we can defend. Right? one of my concerns about AI is we as human beings are creating it. We're creating our own mirror and we're training AI. So what are we training? Are we training AI? This is gonna be mundane, but like that red is beautiful and black is ugly, right? Or that coffee is better than tea. being very mundane about this, but like you know, we we have the responsibility as we build the process, what is the governance in the end? How are we going to test that this process actually delivered us more diverse candidates versus more candidates that just look like me? And so I think HR leaders as we're going through this, having those questions in mind and really tuning to the governance and the responsibility and accountability of what we're building. Erin Todus: There's so much context that I don't know if you could ever download all of it, every possible shred of context into a model. Yeah, I think about ⁓ my mom is now retired, but she used to teach at a medical school. And I remember her telling me once that one of the character screening questions that they would screen student applicants with was, would you ever steal a loaf of bread? And they wouldn't give any more context. Amy Crook: That's what you mean. Erin Todus: and they would just sort of watch to see where the candidate would take the conversation, how they would reason through it. And I think about scenario, that's such to your point, it's such a mundane or basic abstract thought, but, you know, scenarios that require context, how could we possibly replace a human in all of those? Kim-Elisha Proctor: I think that goes back to empathy engineering is really understanding where do we value the human in this process? What's that? I come back to this word, I love these words. What's the human texture? ⁓ there is a book I read in graduate school that I've been coming back to recently. ⁓ it's by ⁓ Peter Block, and the book title is Answer to How is Yes. And he says in the book that. We as leaders get to the question of like, how are we going to do this? Like, that's like we hear something, it's like, okay, how am I going to implement AI? And he says in the book, we skip over the question, is this worth doing? Does this matter? And I think ⁓ that's something we as HR leaders and all leaders can ask: is like, before we get to the question of like, how are we going to implement AI? It's like, Amy Crook: Mm. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Is this worth doing? Does this really matter to what we're doing? Amy Crook: Yeah, it's such it's such a basic but oftentimes missing question. ⁓ I've definitely seen people build an AI ⁓ solution that made the process longer than just what it was before. And like, yes, I get it. Okay, like you've weaved an AI step into the process, but Why? Like just to say that you like let's remember what we do here. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah, it's it goes back to what are you trying to accomplish with that process? Right. Yeah. Erin Todus: And so AI adoption, Kinley, should I want to shift gears maybe one more time here, can easily map onto existing inequalities. And you alluded to this a couple of times earlier in the conversation. What would you say are some of the new hierarchies or risks that leaders need to be watching? Kim-Elisha Proctor: I think it goes back to this: is what is success? what are we measuring as success? Right. So ⁓ in my course there was an example that Was it ⁓ a tenant? They were screening tenants to figure out the best tenant to say yes to for an opening. Well, in that, if I'm screening tenants, I'm probably gonna wanna get the highest salary. You know, what are all those heuristics, right? is that what you're really screening for as success? Then you're gonna filter out. a large portion of the population. You know, maybe someone missed their rent payment once in the last year. How long are you looking at the payment ⁓ that's been made? Like it's just even thinking about as candidates go through an interview funnel, right? What are you looking for? Are we want more, are you going to look at give me all the candidates who have MBAs? Because that's my heuristic for success for this role. Right? Then you're gonna filter out a lot of people who've never gotten MBAs. Well, who were those people who have never gotten MBAs? Right? If we statistically look at who is an MBA student, you're gonna filter out the rest. So I think what's important is we build these processes being multi-gold as far as what are we trying to accomplish? Like, yes, we're trying to get the best candidate. But who are we willing not to sacrifice along the way? ⁓ so maybe there's multiple goals of not just ⁓ what you accomplish, but there's the other side of the coin. ⁓ I'm not willing for more than 30% of the people who fall out of this profile to be diverse, right? So I think there's we've we've got to. Erin Todus: Yeah. Kim-Elisha Proctor: open our minds to look at success and measure it in different ways now. ⁓ and even we can ask AI as we're going through this if I'm trying to be a conscious leader and be a diverse leader and bring on diverse ideas, how do I make sure I do this in this process? Right. Amy Crook: Yeah. It it's a really important part of s about, you know, the the equality of it all, you know? Like it's a big it's a big unknown, I think, at this precise moment in time. And I I wonder from your perspective, Kimelisha, what are the implications on workforce divides when you think about knowledge workers as is the the framing now and ⁓ more frontline workers. Like what's the split there and what do we possibly think the implications could be? Kim-Elisha Proctor: I think there's a choice. It's easy to say. I think it's stand back and say, okay, in my workforce, of course, engineers are gonna need AI. They can buy code now, right? of course, with sales, we can use AI to automate these funnels and to do first callbacks and customer contacts. And then when you need a human to call, we'll have a human call. ⁓ so what if we don't make those generalizations and decide that across the workforce, no matter the role, that we're gonna teach artificial general intelligence and be able to give that skill to everyone and show them examples, invite them in to see. Amy Crook: Mm. Kim-Elisha Proctor: How AI could change their role. Right. And maybe help them find those own solutions to work with their managers. No, where are the where are the places that I do this repetitive thing over and over? So being willing to look at new possibilities for all people, no matter what they're doing, not just the obvious cases. Amy Crook: that. I like that a lot. Yeah. And even the point around working together to figure out what the what the adoption looks like in your particular role. I think that just creates much more buy-in from the employee because they're part of the conversation all the way along rather than they're being told. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yes. And you get to build their skills with them and create that safety that they feel ready for what's coming versus something is being done to them. Amy Crook: Yeah. Yeah, or this isn't for your type of role. How do you know? How do you know? Like what what what extensive research and thought process have you gone through to decide that this wouldn't add any value? You don't know because there's that very beginning step around getting clear on where things lay currently, processes do Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah. Yeah. Amy Crook: improve but do they also need to change significantly and what does that look like? ⁓ so pulling people into that conversation, I love that. So that it's a it's a we're in this together to to come up with how what this means for our company and how we're going to best best make use of this technology versus yeah it's just a directive coming from above and No one really feels like they know it. In fact, this would be a good poll to do. In fact, I'm gonna do it. How many people could clearly articulate today what their company's AI philosophy and policy is? What is it? Erin Todus: I would like to know. Amy Crook: I would too. Everyone's talking about it, but it's just a lot of words. Like, okay, like, but what the but what's the goal? What like we the very first thing you said, what's the goal? I think if you lead any conversation with a clear business objective, and then you're like, and this is what's gonna help us get there, and here's some of the ways that we've been trying it out, it's such a better conversation than Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah. ⁓ Erin Todus: Yeah. Amy Crook: AI is coming for you. That's right. And then and the employee population's like, but what does that mean? And then silence. Erin Todus: you Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah. What's that one? Amy Crook: We don't know! Kim-Elisha Proctor: Know and I I think there's also part of this of like sharing more of the stories of AI and what's possible, right? yeah, and again, leaders might not know what this means yet, right? They think they're at the beginning of their AI transformation and they're tinkering. Then be honest, like we're at the beginning and we're tinkering and we're gonna bring you along as we figure this out. We're gonna make mistakes. Amy Crook: So thank you. Kim-Elisha Proctor: And we're gonna learn it may not work, right? But we're gonna we're gonna see what this AI is about and how this can impact our customers and impact the lives of our employees. ⁓ and I really think that as you involve people at all levels in all different roles, they're gonna have different ideas, right? ⁓ they know their work and what they do more than we do. Or their manager does. So if we can get them involved and to have these great new ideas, ⁓ AI really opens up new possibilities. And I think that's that's the conversation I want to start to hear in workforces and workplaces is what is the possibility of AI versus I'm scared of AI? I think that will make the difference. Amy Crook: Yeah. It's so funny because the the question I wanted to wrap up with. This is very on brand for you, Kamalaesha. You just basically answered without me even asking it. and it you know, I just but I think it bears repeating. So the the the question framing is around what HR leaders should prioritize to ⁓ make sure that their AI adoption goes from experimentation to like real operational. ⁓ deployment that benefits the organization. And you know, I'm hearing from you, and you feel free to add to this, but I'm hearing from you open conversations, talk about the elephant in the room, and consider everything. Nothing's off the table right now. ⁓ and so Yeah, like how how I I think that's real I think it's very valuable. I think bringing everybody along with you is key to being successful. ⁓ is there anything else, just on that very brief wrap up ⁓ that I gave that you would add for for HR leaders to be thinking about right now? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah, I would say the parting advice I have for HR leaders, ⁓ and leaders in general, right? I think we often like we feel the weight of the responsibility that we hold. ⁓ how do we hold that responsibility but without the fear? ⁓ another person I've been drawn to recently is Pema Chojran. She's a Tibetan Buddhist. And ⁓ Amy Crook: Mm. Kim-Elisha Proctor: She has ⁓ a lot that she talks about about being comfortable with the feeling of uncertainty. And that in uncertainty, we look for certainty, we look for ground, we look for something that keeps us comfortable. And I think I finally got it in my life. Of this, I hate this phrase, the only constant is change. Of like, okay, I'm getting it, it's gonna change. We had COVID. Amy Crook: Yeah. Kim-Elisha Proctor: We had extreme workforce changes, and now we have AI. So in this time of uncertainty, you're not gonna find ground of certainty right now. So even in the midst of that uncertainty, tend to your own fear, to your own concerns, so you can really show up for your team. And ⁓ I think it's more authenti it's more important to be authentic and integrity than to have the forced answers right now and to walk and talk you don't believe. Amy Crook: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm so excited to read your pieces that are coming out, Kimmelisha. You're a beautiful character. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Thanks. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation. Amy Crook: Yeah, same here, same here. And so we know you have your ⁓ manifesto coming out. and ⁓ it actually w it will be out by the time we put this out. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Well, so it's I have a three-piece series. ⁓ the first piece will talk about the importance of a leader understanding where they are, locating their own fear. ⁓ second introduces this framework about ⁓ what we believe, how we're gonna lead and what we're gonna build. And then the third piece is the manifesto. I think what was really important to me is I wanted people to think about ⁓ where they are and their own three conversations. before I introduce the manifesto and some provocative ideas. So yeah, we'll come out over three weeks. Amy Crook: All right. I can't wait to read it. And if people want to connect with you, Himalisha, what's the best way for them to do that? Kim-Elisha Proctor: Yeah, ⁓ they can find me ⁓ on Substack at solstice group or they can ⁓ also email me at Kimelisha at solstice.group. Amy Crook: Perfect. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. And I look forward to reading your manifesto when it comes out. Kim-Elisha Proctor: Thanks so much, Amy. Thank you, Erin. It was a great conversation. Erin Todus: Thanks, Kamalisha. Take care.