Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: Multiplicity and Me

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Guest: Multiplicity and Me · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:02
  Our system guest today is the system from Multiplicity and Me. Welcome.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Of course. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. I'm just excited to be a part of the show.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate it. I'm super excited actually, and you'll have to bear with me, like forgive me, I'm not trying at all to be offensive but we are terrible at YouTube!
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Oh no, it's okay, we are too! We so much anyone, we're pretty awful, we just do our little thing and post it out. Yeah, so we don't really get a chance to talk to many, well watch many of the systems online. We
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: don't and I just, I got six outside kids and there's just not time to sit around watching YouTube so I'm grateful that that's a resource for a lot of people I'm not at all trying to be disrespectful but it's not my I
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: just have the bun and I totally agree like where is the time I can't have mash in six.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Oh goodness. Oh goodness. Well, I just I wanted to have you on because you keep showing up on my news feed on Facebook actually and Oh. And so peep when people are talking about it or leaving your links as a resource or something, I just wanted to get to know you. And I thought if you were helping some people, then our listeners would be glad to hear that.
• 2:27
  And then we also had an interesting conversation that I wanna follow-up on a little bit because I actually am going to talk about that at the ISSTD in March and so
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Oh that's so interesting!
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Right? So just a lot of things fell into place so I appreciate you coming on as a guest.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Of course! I'm so pleased just to be here. I appreciate you asking me and what an honor to speak at the ISSTD conference, that is incredible!
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's terrifying! The the pod the podcast is getting an award for them, and so I'm going there for that, but ended up also presenting a poster session. So we're gonna talk about that later. But tell me first for other people who maybe are not as familiar about some of your story or what you're doing, share with us just what you're comfortable with. It's sort of as an introduction to you all.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Sure. So my name is Jess, I run a YouTube channel called Multiplicity and Me, and I set that up after I was diagnosed with DID, and I realized that there was nothing online to say that, I could lead people like me, people like us, could lead a normal functional life, and so I kind of wanted to just make something to say 'hey, it's okay, you can live not a Hollywood stereotype essentially, you can live a normal, a relatively normal life', because I just thought if there's anyone like me that was trying to find a resource and some comfort in something, then I hoped I could be that person for someone else, you know?
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: How did you find out about DID?
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Oh goodness me, it's funny, I've always had people in my head, I didn't really know what they were called, I didn't know anything about it, I just thought that that was quite normal. Know, growing up you kind of realise actually maybe it's not normal. So I was diagnosed after I was at university, and it was kind of like once we got to university my alters just kind of wreaked havoc, you know, we all had our own different things that we wanted to do and it was kind of like, yeah, freedom! And so, because I studied clinical psychology, my tutor at the time, who was a psychologist, was like, 'hey Jess, I think you might need to kind of get seen about this and then the university can support you.' And that's when I was diagnosed.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's interesting. A similar thing happened to us, we sort of had a problem in the middle of psych class when we were triggered significantly and everything sort of fell apart in front of our psychology professor who then referred us out.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Oh amazing, I hope that's such a small world in a way, know, it's great that I guess, you know, people in that education kind of role can support people like us.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Right, it's fascinating to me and I think it's absolutely an underutilized maybe resource for people just getting diagnosed because we talk so often about how the textbooks are not updated and accurate and I know Bethany Brand is a clinician that's working on fixing that and addressing the textbook issues and we can't help what people are taught in school and things like that, but at the same time there are lots of good clinicians out there teaching and lots of good colleges and universities where it is presented and people recognize it and we do get help.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Exactly, we just need more of that, right? We need more people to spread the word and to teach it in class for what it is. I think when I was at uni it was mentioned for about five minutes and that was it, you know, and those are the psychologists of the future, just hearing that little five minute segment on DID and DID definitely cannot be summed up in five minutes.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Right, right. Were you all able to stay in treatment consistently from that time since or have you had sort of a bit of a journey in the therapeutic process?
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we've been in and out of therapy for years, different kinds of therapy, you know, we've done group therapy, specialist therapy, private therapy, NHS therapy, it's just I guess about finding the right person to work with you, and I think to be honest, after the rigmarole of trying to find someone, you just end up doing a lot of self therapy. I don't think that's uncommon amongst sort of people like us that kind of have to adapt, know, psychoeducation is important, and we got to a point really where we kind of felt that, you know what, I think we kind of stabilized at phase one enough, maybe it's time to move on to phase two and dive into that trauma, because we kind of plateaued and we couldn't go any further, so we now sought the advice of the specialist and we see him for our, you know, as our therapist, and yeah, so we're kind of approaching stage two now, it's scary, but you know, we're getting there.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: After uni we had the same therapist for a short time and then sort of ran away from it all as best we could and lived in Australia for a while and in France for a little while, like really ran away, ran away. Oh, you
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: traveled the world, that sounds incredible though.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Well it was I think, a response to sort of being discovered, I guess. We had, what what they would call now a few few experiences. Right. Yep. And it was pretty difficult, but then our parents were our parents passed away and so I went
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: back to time everything
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: kind of fell apart and so it was finally time to start but it's a struggle for some people to find therapists and to get into therapy and be able to participate consistently.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely. And it's like I said, it's always been in and out with us and I think for the first time we're now having stable specialist therapy that's correct for us, you know, and it's a nice but scary feeling.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: And you've got a family as well?
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm not sure what was the link about family did you say?
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Well, I just I know you've mentioned your family or you showed your family or talked about your family or something and I was just saying that because so many survivors feel on their own but sort of like you said about being functional and engaging in life and continuing to participate in life, and so we have a family as well that we've created on our own.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: And you know your family is the family that you make, you can make now, it doesn't have to be the family that you had before you know, that's kind of it really, you know, we have a lovely little baby and we have a lovely husband, you know, we've been with him for twelve years now, and our little girl's 19 old and thriving, and it's just kind of proof in the pudding really, that your life doesn't stop after a diagnosis, it doesn't stop just because you have this disorder.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: How do you navigate all that trying to do therapy and your family as well as advocating for others online?
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean I also work full time as well, so it's a crazy busy life, but I enjoy keeping busy. I find for me in a way that's therapeutic, that keeps me mentally healthy, so it's just about good organization and allocating that time, know, so we you know, I think special therapy is you know an expensive thing, we only have it once a fortnight, but you know we make sure that that time is a time slot just for us, and Gaz, my husband, will have the baby, so I can just have that hour and maybe a little bit after just to kind of recuperate. Know, youtubing then I can only do when baby's in bed from like 08:00, so I kind of do all the editing from 08:00 till bedtime, I film on the weekend just for an hour, but I script kind of in the night, so again I've got a script kind of planned, I can film on the weekend, so it's all very organised and that's kind of the way I like to live really, that's the way I've always been.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: A bit of stability from being organised externally as well as internally.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. What kinds of
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: things do you put on your YouTube channel? What kinds of things are you sharing or teaching about?
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Well, I think most of it really is just general stigma bashing, it's kind of like saying 'hey, these are the alters, this is us, and we're nothing to be frightened of'. I think that's like a major bottom line message of everything that we do. We try and be innovative as well, so we've gotten actors in to represent our alters, we did like a three sixty video project, like a virtual reality project, so it kind of puts somebody at the center of a headspace conversation that we've had, know, we try to keep all the words accurate and verbatim, so when the viewer looks around they see an alter in every direction, it kind of puts somebody who doesn't experience anything like that at the center of what we do. Going forward we're doing an 'Ask the Expert' series, so we're kind of getting people from all walks of life, whether it's somebody with DID and say we've got something lined up with somebody who's got DID in autism, so obviously they can speak about their experiences there, somebody who's an expert dog handler who also has DID and trains people with DID, we're also speaking to one of the diagnostic specialists in The UK, as well as my own specialists, so we've got a good little mixed bag coming along at the moment in terms of things to present going forward, and we just try and keep innovative and come up with different ideas, but the bottom line for us is that we try and be as authentic as possible, and I think that kind of, I don't know, I'd like to think that makes us stand out in terms of the professional field at the moment, we're the only kind of, I say large name YouTuber that's, DID YouTuber, that's kind of recommended by professionals, and that makes us feel really special.
• 12:31
  So we're trying to just keep doing what we're doing really.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: That's amazing! I feel like you just told me so many things I want to know more about!
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: That's amazing, Emma, I'm so pleased!
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, so let me back up just so that I can understand. Tell me about the three sixty project, tell me more about that, how does that work?
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: So, we had a three sixty video camera, so if you watch the video, basically you can move your phone or if you have a VR headset, you can wear a VR headset and look around the room and you've got each of our altars standing around you and you can hear these conversations that are scripted by ourselves, so you know, this took months and months to write up and we kind of cut out what we didn't want to put in, made sure everyone was comfortable with what was being said, made it kind of fit and flow, and then we basically had actors recite the lines that they were given, and they stood and represented the alters that are kind of in our head really. And yeah, so that kind of gives the viewer a really immersive experience as to what goes on in system conversations, and it's light hearted, it's also serious, it covers some light hearted moments where they're kind of all taking the neck out of each other, they're kind of poking fun, and then in the back it's kind of talking about trauma and kind of discussing next steps in therapy, so it's generic stuff that kind of tells the viewer that, again, we're not like the Hollywood stereotypes, we're not talking about a plot to kill someone and things like that, that doesn't happen, so it kind of pokes fun about that as well.
• 14:15
  And yeah, that's it basically.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: What was that like having actors represent different alters?
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Really weird, really weird. You know, it was a funny thing because these, the four out of the- the three out of the four actors, I should say, were selected before for a BBC documentary we did, so they were already in place and we kept in touch and I said 'hey, know, Deep, would you be interested in doing kind of a private work for us?' and they were like 'yeah, why not?' So I met them once already, but to kind of be in a room with them this time where we had, you know, hair and makeup, we had the wardrobe, we did everything, that was so, so surreal, I dissociated terribly during the day, I could barely focus, but they were great, they were really understanding, and they kind of directed themselves in the end, because I was like, I'm so sorry guys,' but they were great, you know, they managed themselves, and we made feel like, a pretty good project.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Where can people watch this? Do you have a specific link?
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: It's on our YouTube, so it is on multiplicity and me, we've got a playlist called 'Actors Representing Alters' and it's in there, or you can search for, it's called a dissociative identity simulation, if you type that in to YouTube or DID three sixty video, it should come up too. Yeah, you'll find it somehow, it's there.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: What was the documentary?
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: So the previous documentary was called the Lives I Lead', and it was a BBC iPlayer special, and that was basically about growing up with the symptoms of DID, so the kind of- it doesn't reveal that I had that until the end, if that makes sense, so I kind of talk about what happened to me growing up and my experiences with that, and then the actors were again talking verbatim from what the alters had sent in to the director about their journey growing up alongside me and alongside each other, so basically the actors kind of played people who knew me quote unquote at school, and then they talked about that, and at the end it kind of revealed actually we're all one person.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: See, now I'm going to have to get on YouTube, because I need to pay attention to this. Where can people see the documentary? Is it still up somewhere?
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: It's still, yeah, it's on my channel again. I've had to, for copyright reasons, had to only upload a two forty pixel vision, but it is on my channel and I believe it is still on the BBC iPlayer site, although I know that anyone outside The UK can't view that on BBC sites, so it has to be through my channel again.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: So how have you handled between the BBC documentary and then your own channel and word getting out about what you're doing, how have you handled that sort of community aspect and the onslaught of Like, I know for us on the podcast, we just sort of started this because there weren't any podcasts that we could find at the time. Mhmm. And we're not, we don't have time to watch YouTube videos, so we thought maybe other people needed something to listen to because they couldn't watch either. And so we just sort of started kind of as a experimental therapy thing because then we can go back and listen to it and sort of all of us learning together. And it has surprised us how much it sped things up in getting communicating internally, but also we were sort of surprised that people started listening and paying attention.
• 17:48
  And so how have you handled that focus on you?
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, think you found totally an amazing niche market, Emma, and I think, again, your podcast has kind of sparked several now. And again, that's the beauty of this, right? You know, we were kind of one of the first to start this YouTube channel and now it's kind of a community thing, and it's amazing to see that your podcast has done exactly the same thing, and it's so amazing. I mean it's a funny thing, because some years ago I actually started the channel, I did a documentary called Diaries of the Broker Mind, and also it was just after I got diagnosed, this is when I started, but the online backlash I received back then was so horrid I deleted my channel, and it was about two years on, and there was still kind of nothing, nobody started anything, and I thought oh, that's such a shame, and then we won an award for the best documentary of the year with MIND, which are a UK mental health charity, and it was like wow, and that was kind of the kick to me to say no, you know what, we were doing something right, let's try this again!' So it's kind of, I felt like in that time the society just moved on just a little bit, and I find, you know, the more that systems speak about it, the more that DID is out there, the less stigma seems to go alongside it, and I think that's a remarkable thing.
• 19:13
  To look back, say, gosh, it must be seven, eight years ago since I originally did my original channel, compared to now it's like day and night, it's incredible how much times have changed just from people like you, like me, like everyone in the community just saying how it is, just stamping out that stigma.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: I think it's been fascinating watching people learn and grow together and obviously when all of us have so many different aspects of trauma that we're dealing with and also trying to function and help others, it can get a bit delicate sometimes to stay healthy and one of the things that we really had to go through was learning about how to discern healthy friends and who were listening and also supportive and also trying hard
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: So with boundaries?
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes and so staying out of the drama of it because I really want to just be healthy and I want to get better it's been a learning process and sometimes I feel like I wish I would have handled this differently or I would have done this or just sort of learning along with everything else, of even just social skills of being able to navigate all that, you know?
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Of course, I mean that's so difficult, I mean hindsight's a wonderful thing, but equally I think that helps us kind of analyse and help us take another stepping stone going forward in life. Know, we can look back and be like, oh I wish I didn't do this, or I could have done this better, and that helps us learn and grow.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: One of the things that we talked about when we were having our conversation before recording the episode was about sort of the plurality concept, and for me I have struggled because mean I'm still getting adjusted to the diagnosis anyway and so I don't have it in me or any desire really to identify as that because for me, from my perspective, it feels like identifying with my trauma and I want to be so much more than that and I want to be greater than that but also I understand having because I do still travel a lot around the world for my work. We do like humanitarian aid work and and things like that. So we're in a lot of hard places. Incredible. There's just so much trauma in the world and so we see that and I've been in places where it's so difficult for people to get help and so I know even in the context of DID there are so many people who are waiting for therapists or who don't have access to services and so they really do sort of identify with that plurality differently because I've learned in a way I didn't understand before that even just having therapy is sort of privileged and, having to face that sort of in my own and wrestling with it.
• 22:11
  So I understand that I have, DID and recognizing that and being able to say that out loud but I also don't want to just, I'm trying to find my words so I can be respectful to myself and other people.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: It's like you want to be more than your label.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Yes yes yes and I want to learn to get to know all of me and to embrace that and to advocate for that and I understand how so many people have even fewer resources than we do in that effort but also I don't want to just identify with what is wrong and I know some of them would say that that's not what is wrong, know, and and use a lot of, sort of even civil rights kinds of language of empowering them and and I appreciate that and I've learned a lot from it but it's hard for me. What is your take on all of this, what is your perspective?
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's really important first and foremost that people identify with how they want to identify. It is not up to anyone else to tell someone who they are or who they're not, and I think that's a huge thing you know, in terms of if we're gonna just talk strictly about say, traumagenic versus endogenic plurality, for want of a better word, you know, I would never ever say to someone, I mean, I don't understand from my perspective endogenic multiplicity, I don't have that, and I totally understand that if that's what somebody's going through, I respect that wholeheartedly. I think just from my perspective, I think we have to be careful to say that multiplicity is not the be all and end all of DID, and whereas I understand that we share a symptom, say, amongst people, say, endogenic plurality, etc, I think it's a very different journey, all in all. I mean, I know one of my alters, Ollie, feels quite strongly about it, and this is his example, so obviously apologies for it being a little bit, I guess, direct, but he kind of feels that it's kind of like people with a cough going into an emphysema form and saying well I have a cough, so we're all the same'.
• 24:34
  But the treatment really for a cough versus someone who's got emphysema and a cough as a symptom is very different, and I think we just have to be aware of that. It's kind of like, yeah, we can understand that we're all multiple, we can understand that we're plural, but in terms of the treatment for both parties, it's dangerous to treat someone without trauma using the DID model, and equally it's dangerous to treat someone without DID, with DID, without the trauma model, if that makes sense. It's kind of, it's not mentally, psychologically wise to kind of mix the two in the treatment aspect.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: I think that's a really important distinction that I didn't have words for, because at first when I was first learning about all of this, I didn't understand it at all and I was like why would you even say that? Like I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Why would how does that happen? But I spent the summer in or part of the summer in Africa with my daughter last year. Mhmm.
• 25:33
  And in some of the rare very, rural places where we were, they had some people who have like, in here in Native American, they sometimes called too spirited or too souled or something. Mhmm. But they had people like that there in Africa. But and then it would so that was my first introduction of understanding, oh, this is something that for them is cultural or for them is spiritual but what I didn't have the piece is what you just told me about the distinction being in regards to treatment and context and so I think that's mean
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: a fascinating introduction, you had to it though, that's remarkable you know, that's such a good life experience to have.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I think what you said is important as well, in that we can't tell other people what their experience is. So in the same way that I don't want my experience judged, have to be careful that even though I don't understand other people's experiences not to sort of condemn them for that or to that either way.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know, and I just say that yeah, I just agree with you wholeheartedly. Think it's just that simple distinction, it's not saying 'hey, what you go through isn't valid', I don't personally believe it, I can never tell someone what goes on in their head, because I don't know at the end of the day, and I would never feel that privileged just to tell someone what is or what isn't real to them, what is and what isn't happening to them. And any good therapist, any good mental health worker would simply work alongside the symptoms and not necessarily the diagnosis, and again that is an important thing to take away. So if somebody who is multiple approaches a therapist and says 'hey, I have multiplicity but I don't have trauma', you know, that's fine, the therapist should be able to kind of help that person make sure they're learning to communicate and cooperate and live their best life, but equally if somebody doesn't want to acknowledge they've got trauma, that is totally okay too, and again that ball is in their court about how they wish to identify. I mean for years and years we didn't want to acknowledge our trauma, but we still always identified as DID, we knew it was there, but we very much focused on the multiplicity aspect, very much focused on the distinction of alters, and some may say that that's not healthy, but at the same time it's part of process, it's part of growing up, it's part of experience, and you've got to be ready for you, not ready for when some stranger online tells you you should be ready to explore your trauma, it is in your hands.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: That's fascinating because we've just gone through an experience where our therapists for three years, we've had to move and so we've had to change therapists and it's been such a difficult thing and I think that we're sort of in that place you just described of. I know that we need to work on trauma and in some ways we're sort of recognizing that we're ready for some deeper work or what you were referencing as phase two work. But at the same time because we had to change therapists we're sort of starting over at safety and it's like I just can't go there again, I can't work that hard again, I can't disclose things again. For now where I'm at, what I want is to be able to be at work on time and to feed my children and to be present when I'm with them and like sort of backtracking at a different level of safety
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I think, you know, let's be honest, in terms of importance, that functionality is the most important, I feel, you know, and if that's your priorities, if those are your goals, then that is what your therapist should be happy to work with you on. Even if it's surface level stuff, that's- it's entirely up to you and it is never down to the therapist in how you want to proceed.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: That really helped me to remember that it's part of the greater context of the process, that that's not- like we've made it enough that we understand we're not starting completely over, but at the same time to take our time with a new person is okay.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely. And you should never ever feel rushed or pressured, and if you do then maybe that therapist, you know, and obviously not just you but if anyone's listening, that maybe that therapist isn't right for you if you feel that way.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: What would you say to someone who has just been diagnosed and is just starting at the very beginning?
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: My gosh, I'd say be kind to yourself, be gentle with yourself, and understand that your diagnosis is not your fault, and your trauma and your history is not your fault, and if you're not ready to acknowledge that trauma and that history, that's fine, and again you just take your time, you may never be ready, and again that's okay. The most important thing is that you're happy in your life with where you're at, and whether that's just working on safety and stabilization and communicating and cooperating with your parts, then so be it. Nobody should ever force you to take the next steps. Well that was lovely! I'm so glad you liked it!
• 30:41
  But you know, that's totally from the bottom of my heart, and that's a life lesson I wish that I kind of learned way back when. I think when you delve as well into the DID community, or even the plurality community wherever you decide to go, it's kind of- I don't think everyone is particularly- say not everyone is always for- I'm trying to word this in the best way I possibly can, but I think some people can be quite like their ideations are the way forward, when actually, like I said, nobody can tell you how to be, nobody knows what goes on in your head, and if it feels right for you, it's right for you. Great to get advice off others, but at the same time nobody should berate you and make you feel like crap for the way you're feeling.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, what you just said, that's so true, that's so true.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: You've got to heal at your own pace, know, you've got to do what you want to do and nobody should tell you otherwise.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: What do you think is something good or like the best thing about having DID? Like we have so many hard days that are so obvious and sometimes we're like flailing about in our own trauma, like just the mess of it. But what is something good and delightful or funny or what do you think is good about DID?
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: I just think it's almost like the sheer amazement of this coping mechanism. It's like, wow, my brain really did all that to protect me, so I wouldn't remember my trauma, or maybe know a percentage of what happened, it's done so much. And I think to me just stepping back and admiring that, like wow, in a way I'm one of the lucky ones, because some children that go through that kind of stuff, they don't end up with DID and they do end up with those memories, and I think it's just- sometimes it's just about remembering to thank my lucky stars, that my life could have been very different without DID. Mean, I don't know what that's like, but I feel like I was lucky in a way to end up with this, and I'm sure there are some people that disagree, but I think my life would be very different if I ended up remembering everything, know, because a part of this disorder again is about helping you function as an ANP part, so it was an apparently normal part to get on with life. And I guess in terms of, I don't know, in terms of funny stuff, there's just so much, whether it's the running commentary you get, either when you're doing grocery shopping or if you're just driving away in the car and you get the jokes and you get the comments and stuff that sometimes just makes you laugh out loud in public.
• 33:21
  Or even if it's just like the cool kind of talents or habits that you might get, and again you have to be like 'wow, that came out of my body? Like that amazing meal that was cooked by someone came from me, I know how to do that somewhere?' That's incredible.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: I feel like the more that we sort of increase communication and are aware of what's going on, the more we discover some of those hidden talents.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that can take, my goodness, that can take years. I mean, like I said, the rest of your life, it can be an ongoing process, but I feel that discovering those little things is a really cool thing, because you have to step back and just be like well, well done us, like well done'.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: And I think other times it's funny how you can sort of mask some of what's going on because of that chaos. Like we have six children outside, outside kids and so sometimes the chaos or the conversations or playing with them and we're just like oh wow you're a really good mom and it's like well I'm four right now. I mean not really, I don't say those words and I would never say that and I wouldn't even be aware when it's happening but in hindsight it's just embarrassing except no one even knows because it's all blended together.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: And that's what I mean again, it's about that amazing coping mechanism, that amazing defense strategy that, like you said, you'll have a little to play with the kids, or for us it's kind of like sometimes if I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed, you've just got that and another else is out to deal with whatever's going on, and that is a saving grace in itself. I'm sure most people in life would love that kind of get out of jail free card, where they could just put a different person in their place and let them finish the job, because sometimes you just need that breather.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I never thought about that as far as cooperating in that way intentionally.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. It's kind of like you've got your own little cheerleaders in a way, you know? I mean, even that passive influence is something that's not talked about regularly I guess enough, but that passive influence where, you know, I have employees at work, I work in a very cool job and sometimes it's about having those difficult conversations and I am terrible, I hate telling people bad news, I hate kind of bringing that stuff up, but one of my alters Ed is pretty good at it and so Jamie is also very calm and it's kind of like I'll have that kind of- know, they won't be out at work because work is my work, work is my job, but they'll kind of assist me to either stay calm or just be more direct. It's kind of like you can, once you get into the routine, you can kind of pinch and pull alters to- well, they'll come and assist you in different ways, even just by being there and giving you that extra strength or giving you that extra assertion or calmness, and it really does help you function.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: I never thought about it like that.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's so underrated, and passive influence is actually more common than switching. And then that's a wild thought for me, when I realized that I was like 'wow', and stuff kind of made sense then. Was like 'wait, okay, that's why I felt like eating, I don't know, jam on toast when I really don't like jam on toast, you know? You just get that little like, yeah, I'm gonna do that.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: I hadn't thought of that. Again, you've given me words for something I didn't understand. You just, I mean, what you just said was really powerful about how passive influence is more common. Is that what you said? Then Yeah.
• 36:49
  Even the switching. So so even when one person when one of us is is responsible for something, even in that moment, we could still communicate and collaborate enough to work together on something.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and the more the dissociative barriers come down, the more that kind of happens and the more that goes ahead.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Well see, maybe we need to stay in
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: therapy because that sounds helpful. Yeah, but you know, I feel that we've kind of done a lot of that ourselves, if that makes sense. And we've gotten to that stage of communication and cooperation simply by psychoeducation and self therapy and learning about ourselves, respecting each other, you know, and now we work like a well oiled machine really, know, that's kind of how we feel, we all kind of jump in, save each other and help each other out, because we realize, we recognize that that benefits us in the long term. You know, when I first started work way back when in 2016, it was kind of like, you know, if you like, there was, like I say, my alter eld was a very difficult person back then, and I was like 'hey, know, if we want to get out of this house, if we want to save, you need to let me work, you need to let me do my job, and so we can take home some money and then we can save it away and then move'. Was kind of like just starting off with the basics and then working from there kind of gives everyone that realization oh yeah, actually if we work together, if we get through this together, then life is so much easier!'
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: I think that's powerful what you've shared and it's really significant for me, thank you.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: No problem, thank you Emma!
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: What else would you like for people to know about or listen to, or what would you like to share, or any other links that people need to know?
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Gosh, I mean there's so many great links, there's like dodresearch.org, there's the positive outcomes for dissociative survivors, there's traumandissociation.com, there's lots of places, but you know, personally I have always preferred more of the qualitative research, which is kind of more of the talk research, and that is really by people sharing their stories, and I think that mental health is one of those things that the stigma is getting less and less all the time, and the more that people talk about it, the better the world understands, the more that we educate. And so really I just say that if, you know, whether you do a little blog online or whether you do a YouTube channel or a podcast, I just and you're sharing your story, I just think you're doing an incredible job, and I feel like to be this big change, we're not just, you know, one person coming at it and talking about it, we're, you know, all drops falling into this ocean of movement, and when I started doing YouTube, that's what I wanted to be. I wanted us to be a community of people that spoke out and shared their stories, and said, hey, you know what?
• 39:44
  We are not the stigma, we are not the stereotype that people believe us to be. I never wanted to be that person in the spotlight, I never wanted to be that person with DID, and it's amazing now to see how many people share their stories, and I just think that's so inspiring, it's so incredible. Well done you!
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: I think it's a powerful thing as well, seeing community. I mean one of the greatest gifts that we have in our time in the universe is being able to connect so easily, even us talking on Skype right now. Mhmm. And to have that support when even in rural places where otherwise we would be very alone and without support. And and when done well, I just think it's such a powerful gift that we have to give to each other.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, that fellowship, that support, I totally, totally agree. And it's never a one person effort, this is a community effort, and even for those who aren't ready to share their stories or don't want to share their stories, I just think you're just as amazing, deal with this every day, and yeah, it's just so powerful.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I think maybe that's a good lesson for the inside as well.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Definitely, absolutely.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Is there anything you would want therapists to learn or to know about what it's like to have DID?
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Oh goodness me, I mean, I think one of the main points is that obviously you need to work at the pace of your client, and another big thing, there's a great article actually from the ISSTD about working with those with dissociative disorders in therapy, and a huge thing, a huge flag that comes up straight away is basically don't talk about integration, don't talk about fusion, because that's quite a scary word to many people, and it's a naturally frightening word that puts a lot of people off, because it is acknowledging trauma and acknowledging that by bringing down those walls completely you could be flooded and remember that trauma, so it's a naturally scary response for someone with DID. So just stay away from those words, work with your client at your client's pace and just, yeah, that's basically what I'd recommend, is just making sure that you have an open and collaborative relationship with your client.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, that was lovely.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: That's okay, and I'm just so grateful, like I said, for everything Emma. Like, it's just been amazing, I feel like I've known you for ages, just talking away as we have been.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, no way, that's funny.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: I know, I'm so sorry I'm like waffled.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: No, it's intense, this is brutal stuff. Do you have any questions for me or for us or anything before you go?
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, like, I would have like so many. I'm so fascinated to hear about your travels and the fact that you have six amazing children and I'd love to know and learn more about your system. I'm so pleased in the way that you haven't seen my YouTube because that makes me feel so much better when I meet other people and I know just as much as them as they know about me, that makes me feel so much better.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: I know nothing. I'm sorry, I'm totally ignorant.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Sorry, honestly like, I prefer that any day, because you know, again, I don't ever want to be like a beacon or anything special, I just want to be one person with DID telling my story as much as anyone else in this community, you know?
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a vulnerable thing when you're sharing what's going on and there are so many times that we have to just stop and take a vote of like are we really gonna release this out into the world? But the thing always comes back to that there are other people struggling with this too and if we we have the choice it feels like either to not just like to address it in therapy or not but also so much at least for us in our background and I will try to say this without triggering but at least for us in our background so much was just like kept silent and for us actually because of our hearing loss in some ways literally of like silence, silence, silence that if we can now put it out there in our own way, in our own power that somehow it gives us our power back of like our therapist said before, they're not our secrets And we don't trauma dump on the podcast, but we do share very, sometimes very vulnerably about the process of it.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: That's incredible, that's so brave of you and you know that's something that we are not ready to do yet and I admire anyone that can kind of, you know, we've started to talk around Josh Romer and kind of sum it up, but I just admire anyone who's kind of at that, because again I kind of feel that we have an online face as well as a real face, you know what I mean? But again, it depends how vulnerable and how exposed you want to be online, and we're just kind of not ready to take that next step yet. So wow, I mean kudos to you, Em, and to the podcast group for kind of discussing those topics, because that's an incredible feat to me.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: We'll see, it might be foolish, the jury's still out. It certainly doesn't always feel safe, have to be really careful. And there's actually not very many of us that participate in the podcast, it's a pretty specific thing and a specific group because for those safety reasons.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Oh I see, that's totally totally understandable, you know, safety is always number one at the end of the day.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Anything else, anything else you wanted to share or ask before you go?
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I mean, I guess in terms of systems speak, I know you said about your podcast that there wasn't anything kind of there before, and this is why that you set it up. I guess, what's the kind of future for the podcast? Do you have any plans for the future, and kind of how does the whole system feel about doing this?
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, fancy questions. One of the things that we do on the podcast is interview clinicians as well and so besides only sharing ours we have had again a privilege in a way, to be able to speak with and interview different clinicians and that's always been interesting because some of them are so very kind and gracious and some of them are are less so. Yeah. There's there's been a few times where I think they were just selling something and only a couple times where we went ahead with an interview we weren't sure about but after it we thought we're just we can't air it. It's just not I just don't feel comfortable airing it.
• 46:38
  And then two times we had a really good interview that we lost because of technology but they are too busy to do it again with us and so it's sad. But that's just the ups and downs and I think it's taught us a lot about discernment that we really do have an intuition about we can keep ourselves safe and talk to other people and people who are willing to be vulnerable and open up and share what they know and teach others that that turns out to be amazing collaborations and we've made really good friends that way. And others who are just selling something, they don't really show up again anyway so it's fine.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I can't believe somebody sells something during these things, that's wow! You
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: know, like they've got books and things and sometimes like the books are really fantastic and I'm happy to share them. Like I
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: think when it becomes like the center of the topic then you kinda know something's up, right?
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's like what you were saying earlier about being authentic. I would love to talk to any clinician whether they were famous or not. Would love to talk to anyone to get their perspective if they wanted to be on the podcast. If they're going to be real and share something that contributes because otherwise it's just bad modeling. We've had all of us as survivors have had people who were unhealthy or mean or or just terrible humans which is really sad but we don't need more of that.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think you guys seem to be doing an amazing job of that and you know I can't wait to check out more of the podcast and listen to those interviews, because I think again that's a huge kind of missing bit in the field really in terms of what's being done online, and I think it's those professional talks, like more of the expert talks, and you know again that's kind of what we're going to follow suit with this year. And I actually think it may have even been something that you guys did. I'm sure again we saw something pop up or something advertised that we were like 'wow, yeah, we need to do more stuff like that'. So yeah, I mean 2020 for us is going to be more of a year of the expert talks, and yeah, we definitely love to get on board with very similar stuff to what you guys do.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: They're pretty amazing, we've learned a lot and what's fascinating is not just talking to those people, but the conversations that people have either on our Facebook page or emailing in questions, the conversations that they have in response to that and what they learn from It's fascinating to watch people grow and learn together.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: That is an amazing experience, right? It's so incredible.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Well thank you so much for talking to us today!
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Oh no, thank you so much for having me! Like I really appreciate it and I know I'm sure the rest of the system does as well, and they've been quite quiet the last couple of days. They were all happy that we were doing something like this, and I know Jake in particular was really excited. So yeah, it's just been an absolute pleasure to be a part of your podcast, and wow, just thank you so much!
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you!
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: I'm just so humbled that we've been on this show, so just thank you so much for having us, it's been amazing. Best of luck, take care then!
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.