Latest / California Frontier / 053: Beyond the Devil's Road Part 2: Dr. Jeremy Beer

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053: Beyond the Devil's Road Part 2: Dr. Jeremy Beer · California Frontier

• 0:05
  Damian Bacich: ​In part two of my interview with Jeremy beer, about his new book beyond the devils road, Fransisco got SIS in the Spanish encounter with the American Southwest.
• 0:15
  Damian Bacich: We're going to learn more about who Garces was and what made him unique and interesting.
• 0:22
  Damian Bacich: One of the things that Jeremy's book does so well is to give us insight into the motivations.
• 0:28
  Damian Bacich: And the situations, the different people in groups.
• 0:32
  Damian Bacich: That came into contact and often conflict.
• 0:36
  Damian Bacich: In this time.
• 0:37
  Damian Bacich: That in some senses it's very different from our own.
• 0:41
  Damian Bacich: But from a standpoint of humanity, nothing really has changed in the 200 years intervening.
• 0:49
  Damian Bacich: So.
• 0:50
  Damian Bacich: I think that you're going to be drawn in and that you're really gonna like what we talk about.
• 0:55
  Damian Bacich: So without further ado, let's get into the second and final part of my interview with author Jeremy beer Welcome to California Frontier, the show about the often overlooked and unexpected early history of the place we call California.
• 1:16
  Damian Bacich: I'm your host, Damian Basich.
• 1:25
  Damian Bacich: So the title itself, is Beyond the Devil's Road, right?
• 1:29
  Damian Bacich: So why, this name Devil's Road today?
• 1:34
  Damian Bacich: and why does it figure so prominently in the story?
• 1:37
  Jeremy Beer: It's a great name, first of all, right?
• 1:39
  Jeremy Beer: I mean, uh, you can't, it's hard to come up with a better name for a road than the Devil's Road.
• 1:43
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: the juxtaposition is great.
• 1:44
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: You're talking about this Franciscan friar,
• 1:46
  Jeremy Beer: yeah,
• 1:47
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: the Devil's Road.
• 1:48
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: I mean, that hooks you in right
• 1:50
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Exactly.
• 1:52
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Yeah, that's, so that's, it's good, works well for a title.
• 1:54
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, as I said, it really was the, it wasn't called, they had no name at the time.
• 2:03
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: El Camino del Diablo is still there today.
• 2:05
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: You're still warned against traveling it.
• 2:07
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Do you have to get permission from the military to cross part of it?
• 2:10
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Cause it goes across the, um, Goldwater Air Force range.
• 2:14
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It goes, um, it's pretty dangerous.
• 2:17
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, and it was dangerous to them.
• 2:20
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, and it was also the, the Northern limit.
• 2:24
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: essentially, of what was known to Spain geographically, um, not just in terms of landscape but in terms of peoplescape, you know, was not known what's a, what lies north of there, not really.
• 2:42
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Only a couple of other Spaniards had ever been to the Colorado River north of its mouth, I mean a handful, to the Gila River in that area and then beyond that junction.
• 2:58
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So it functions symbolically and metaphorically like that to show what was unique about the word.
• 3:05
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Garcés, what his contribution was, was to, um, spearhead sort of the Spanish, um, penetration beyond that point.
• 3:15
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And then it, it leads to the question like, well, and what was that like?
• 3:19
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: You know?
• 3:20
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, I think, you know, as things turn out, Spain never really made an advance beyond Yuma, uh, and we can get to that part of the story, but if you wanted to have one, if they had, Garcés probably laid the groundwork better for a, um, successful advance.
• 3:39
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Better than almost anyone could have because of the way in which he comported himself, uh, his ability to connect with native peoples in a positive way.
• 3:50
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, his.
• 3:51
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Affection and, and, uh, and, um, tolerance, it's an overused word.
• 4:00
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I think it's the right word here for those he met, um, that almost transcended his time, I would say, and anticipated a different way of doing missionary work.
• 4:10
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, so he's important in that regard.
• 4:12
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It turns out he didn't lay the groundwork for anything much bigger, um, because of what happened in 1781.
• 4:18
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: But, um, but it, it was a promising start.
• 4:23
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: in 1781 was the, was the massacre or, um, in which he lost his life, right?
• 4:29
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Of the, um, of the Spanish colony at, um, Yuma, or what has been called the Yuma Massacre.
• 4:36
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: I don't know if that's the best description of it, but Yeah.
• 4:40
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Um.
• 4:41
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Can you talk a little bit about that?
• 4:42
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: And then, then I want to go back to talk a little bit about Garces and how, um, unique he was.
• 4:48
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So yeah, just to tie a bow on, on the, the, um, revolt, we might say at Yuma, um, after Leon's expeditions have gone through, even before then, it's, it's become very clear to these Spaniards that if we're going to um, Maintain this overland route to California.
• 5:07
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: We have to have a presence at the junction of the Gila and Colorado rivers, which is where today's Yuma is.
• 5:16
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And we have to have friendly relations with the Quetchin people who control that junction.
• 5:22
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: In fact, the Quetchins were the most powerful tribe in that area by a long shot.
• 5:29
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, and they were disposed to be friendly.
• 5:33
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, primarily because of the, their leader at that time, Salvador Palma and leadership was very fluid, of course, as we know among these sorts of groups, but he, he was pretty clearly, um, the, the, the leader at this time and was disposed to be friendly for all sorts of reasons we can guess at, but we know for sure.
• 5:56
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, certainly because of the sorts of things you got when you got a mission, which, uh, and, uh, um, access to, to the world.
• 6:03
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Spanners, which is goods and food and guns and well, you're not supposed to have guns, but um, you know, uh, all material Things that's that's certainly part of it.
• 6:15
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Yeah,
• 6:16
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: his good disposition toward the Spanish was key in allowing the, the second hands expedition to, to get across the desert in the first place and the first right?
• 6:26
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: that's that's right Yeah, and the first when garces met him in 1771 um, yeah, he he guided garces, uh, It's really funny garces thought he kept trying to trick him because he didn't realize he was on the colorado river He kept asking to be taken to colorado He's like, no, he thought it was the helix.
• 6:47
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: He had totally missed the junction.
• 6:48
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, there was flooding at the time.
• 6:50
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, and so it wasn't obvious that this was a new river.
• 6:53
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So it's, it's kind of a humorous, uh, story, but they, they, they hit it off.
• 6:59
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It seems like, I mean, they certainly had a sort of, um, very friendly alliance.
• 7:05
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Yes, Paul, if he were not well disposed, as the questions had not been previously in history when a Jesuit named Father Jacobo Settlemeyer had gone there, I think, in the 1730s, and there had been violence, and then that was it for a generation or more.
• 7:23
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Yeah, if they hadn't been well disposed, I mean, That's it.
• 7:25
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I mean, the truth is the Spanish were almost always outnumbered on the frontier.
• 7:29
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, even if they had slightly higher technology when it comes to the sort of means of warfare.
• 7:35
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, so being well disposed is very, very important.
• 7:39
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So anyway, uh, that lasted for quite a while, but the, the Spaniards, um, on, I think it's fair to say unintentionally and unwittingly broke the limit of that patience among the questions.
• 7:53
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, there's, it's an entire, it's a very tragic situation.
• 7:56
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Palma goes to Mexico city.
• 7:59
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: When Anza comes through, he says, I wanna, I wanna go to Mexico City.
• 8:03
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I want, I want to see.
• 8:05
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And, are you sure?
• 8:07
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Yes, I'm sure.
• 8:09
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: He goes.
• 8:10
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: He's baptized in Mexico City with Anza standing as his godfather.
• 8:15
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: He's showered with gifts and attention by the church.
• 8:18
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, the vice, uh, viceroy on the, in the, in his court and is treated as a celebrity.
• 8:25
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: He writes a, uh, or allegedly dictates a, um, statement, uh, that we can read, uh, today, that's very fascinating.
• 8:34
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And it's not, it's kind of hard to know how much of that is Palma and how much is Anza or others, but anyway.
• 8:39
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, so it's all going great, but the problem is it really raises Palma's sights and expectations.
• 8:44
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And he's made very, made a lot of promises by the Spaniards.
• 8:48
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, that, that weren't kept in terms of, um, goods and when missions would be placed among his people and so forth.
• 8:55
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So things are deteriorating.
• 8:57
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Garcés is sent there in 1779 and a couple of other Spanish friars, uh, or Franciscan friars as well to settle things down, ultimately two small new colonies kind of formed on a new, um, uh, new model are, are planted there.
• 9:14
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: But, uh, the, the goods, the material stuff just never really arrives.
• 9:19
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And then the last straw in 1781, uh, this is happening in June and July.
• 9:25
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, the, uh, there's another round of, uh, uh, settlers coming through.
• 9:31
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, they're actually on their way to settle, um, to found Los Angeles, what becomes Los Angeles and just hundreds of livestock trampling, question, uh, crops, eating precious seeds and so forth.
• 9:45
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And it's just the last straw.
• 9:46
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And Palma has lost all of his prestige at this point, or almost all of it.
• 9:50
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And, um, new, uh, younger, uh, settlers.
• 9:53
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Men, uh, who are itching for a, a more of a confrontational attitude rise up and they slaughter, uh, the Spanish, uh, in, in July of 1781.
• 10:06
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And, uh, take a lot of captives as well in terms of women and children and garce in three other friars lose their lives in that, in that, uh, uprising.
• 10:16
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So that's sort of how it ends, and that's a thumb naked.
• 10:19
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: That's the quick thumbnail.
• 10:20
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: There's a lots of drama involved in all that, as you might imagine, but that really ends not only for Garcés, but really for the Spanish in that part of the world.
• 10:29
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: They, they really never establish a foothold there again.
• 10:33
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: And you do a good job of sort of describing the tension that's being built up, you know, uh, among the, the native people there expecting that sooner or later they're going to, uh, to be sort of showered with supplies and gifts and resources as, as the Spanish seem to have, you know, promised.
• 10:56
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: And then yes, uh, Palma sort of losing his, his grip and, and and things going, going awry.
• 11:04
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: But one of the things that I appreciate about how you wrote this book is you definitely give a lot of layers, right?
• 11:15
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: You, you provide a lot of context and nuance to the, the, the really complex relationships between the missionaries, the Native people and, and their leaders and the out, the alliances, the, um, and non alliances between the different Native groups.
• 11:37
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: And then, um, you know, the, the Spanish, Military leaders, the Spanish, uh, Viceroy down in Mexico City.
• 11:48
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: There's so many There's such a web of relationships and misunderstandings and everything that, that I think that you do a very good job of trying to see things from the perspective of the different players in this big game of risk, let's say, you know, and I think that's to be commended.
• 12:12
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: It must have been hard to try and do that.
• 12:16
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It's really hard, and I'm sure I could have done better.
• 12:19
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, it's really hard, and, you know, one of the things that makes it hard is, so we, we, It's not that hard to, um, get into the missionary perspective.
• 12:30
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It's not that hard to get into the Spanish crowns.
• 12:33
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: a kind of perspective.
• 12:35
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It's not that hard to get into, um, ranchers and miners, you know, lay people on the frontier, although there weren't that many of them's perspective.
• 12:44
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It's, it's hard if not impossible for us really to get into the native people's perspective, right?
• 12:50
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Because, um, among other things, we don't have written records from them.
• 12:55
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, and so, uh, it's, That's where you have to try to be really careful and without importing our own anachronisms, right?
• 13:06
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So one, I think, thing many people may not have their minds around is there is no sort of pan native sense of like collective identity.
• 13:16
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: That doesn't come about for a long, long time.
• 13:19
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: 20th century, arguably, right?
• 13:21
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, so as you point out, there is constant, Violence and warfare on the frontier Spanish there or not.
• 13:31
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: The questions have their own Alliance with various other groups.
• 13:35
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: They're sort of the leaders of this Alliance.
• 13:37
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: The Pimas have their own Alliance with various other groups and they're kind of the leaders in that Alliance.
• 13:43
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: The Apaches are yet a third.
• 13:45
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Group that's not allied with either one or might be shifting back and forth.
• 13:50
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, the Hopi play a role here.
• 13:52
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I mean, it's not, it is not like there were the native Americans and there were the Spaniards and that's the truth.
• 13:57
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: That's not what this was.
• 13:59
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And then within the Spanish group, same thing.
• 14:01
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: The missionaries have their own, uh, goals.
• 14:03
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: The crown has its own goals.
• 14:05
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: The military has its own goals and they're not always on the same page far from it.
• 14:09
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So yeah, it gets complicated.
• 14:12
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I wish it were easier to give the native perspective on this.
• 14:16
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, and that's, this is the one thing you just have to live with the, the paucity of, uh, sources and evidence.
• 14:24
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It's, it's just makes it very difficult.
• 14:27
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: But I think you're part of a, of a growing group of authors who are trying to do that, right?
• 14:33
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: And, and, but at the same time, also trying to tease out the different, as you mentioned, tease out the different motivations and, and standpoints of, of the Spanish as well.
• 14:44
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: You know, um, it made me think about the fact that you, you take this, um, this biography of this Spanish friar Garcés and, and, You're clearly sympathetic to him.
• 14:59
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Uh, and he, in some ways, as you mentioned, is unique in his approach, or at least, um, he sort of goes against the mainstream in his approach to trying to spread Christianity among, uh, Native people, among the Indians of the Southwest.
• 15:18
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: What was it about his approach that you would say is different to, say, his, Most of the other missionaries operating in that space at that time.
• 15:30
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Yeah.
• 15:31
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, I mean, I've mentioned his courage, which was, um, definitely sets him apart.
• 15:37
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It's, that's the most extraordinary fact about him, I think.
• 15:42
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: There was a, he doesn't have a theory.
• 15:44
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So there was no like, I'm going, I have a new theory of how I'm going to do missiology.
• 15:48
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Is that, you know, and that's not, that's not him, but he has intuitions, I think.
• 15:54
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, and again, because he's not a great writer, he doesn't necessarily articulate these very well, but intuitions on how to, what the best way is to, um, to evangelize, which is his goal, right?
• 16:09
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, and it's, it's this really deep sympathetic identification as much as, Anybody could have possibly hoped for at that time, uh, from, from this perspective.
• 16:19
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: A pretty deep sympathetic identification with those he's, um, dealing with.
• 16:24
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So, uh, Font, a chronicler of the, uh, second Anza expedition, Franciscan friar himself, you know, he, he has a very famous passage in his diary or the journal of the expedition.
• 16:36
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It says, uh, Garces, uh, Garces is, uh, Incredible.
• 16:41
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I mean, he's like an Indian himself.
• 16:42
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: He'll sit around the fire all night with them and talk or just sit in silence.
• 16:47
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And, um, he, what's with this guy?
• 16:51
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: That's sort of, that's sort of the implicit sort of thing that font says.
• 16:55
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And they, and everyone, um, Seemed to recognize that.
• 17:00
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And that's what he was always called on to, um, that's why he was sent to Yuma, right?
• 17:06
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It could only be him.
• 17:07
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Only Garcés could maybe rescue the situation, uh, because of his ability to connect.
• 17:14
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So I don't know what that was.
• 17:18
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, I'd say there's a kind of simplicity to it.
• 17:21
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: A kind of artlessness is another way he's described once by one of his contemporaries.
• 17:25
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, no guile in him, uh, and, uh, also no, uh, pretense, no snobbery.
• 17:31
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: at all.
• 17:33
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, he was just, yeah, sympathetic.
• 17:37
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: The only Native Americans, the only Native group he ever had any tension with until the very end, of course, at Yuma with the questions, which wasn't his fault, um, were the Hopi.
• 17:52
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And that seems to have, Again, factors not related to him.
• 17:58
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, so yeah, I don't know if that answers the question, but that he's just unique in his, uh, he also just was not, um, he wasn't an administrator.
• 18:07
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: He wasn't a builder.
• 18:08
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: He did not have any of those talents.
• 18:10
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And a part that also kind of insulates him from having to do any of the hard stuff that you have to do if you're, if you're in this position, right?
• 18:17
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Like he didn't exercise discipline very often on his charges, if ever.
• 18:23
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: San Javier del Bach, he just sort of let things go there.
• 18:26
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I don't, there's not much evidence that he put a lot of effort into trying to build that mission.
• 18:31
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And, um, he just wasn't attracted to, maybe just didn't have the stomach for the kinds of, uh, paternalistic discipline that was expected of a Spanish, you know, missionary, a pastor, a mission.
• 18:47
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, and so, That's probably good in the end, right?
• 18:52
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: He just doesn't have that, that allowed him to connect and not, and not have that, uh, other aspect for, for, uh, to his character for people to think about.
• 19:05
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Well, one of the things that, that struck me about your book is that you don't shy away from talking about the problems and the abuses that took place, um, by not just soldiers and settlers, but by missionaries themselves.
• 19:25
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Um, and that sort of, in a lot of ways helped create some of the bad blood among Native people against the Spanish and against the church itself, but at the same time, you're not, um, dismissing it all either.
• 19:42
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: You're, you actually mention that, that, that you have, here, back to this word sympathy, that you have a certain sympathy for the people, the Spanish people, the Native people, but, um, that, that you, you also highlight, um, This person like, like Garcés, etc.
• 20:03
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: I guess I'm trying to ask is, yeah, how do you balance that without becoming, once again, manichean, black and white, uh, Recognizing the bad things that happened.
• 20:13
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Um, you also describe in detail the, the the things that Native people did as well to each other and to the Spanish.
• 20:22
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: So how do you, how do you thread that needle or how did, what was your, um, your thought process in talking about all these things?
• 20:30
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Yeah.
• 20:30
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And I don't, I don't know how well I threaded the needle.
• 20:33
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I certainly try to and I appreciate that.
• 20:34
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, just try to proceed from some basic principles that don't seem to me that controversial.
• 20:41
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: For instance, like no cartoons.
• 20:43
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: People aren't cartoons.
• 20:44
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Yeah.
• 20:44
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, I have no ideological lens I'm bringing to this at all, like pre set, like, this is how, there's no theory undergirding this, just really trying to be true to the sources.
• 20:56
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And then, um, I guess the one theory I do have is like, we're all human.
• 21:01
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Everybody's human, and humans are a mix of bad and good.
• 21:05
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And that will come out in different ways, different times, in different contexts.
• 21:10
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And, uh, that keeps you usually from having cartoon heroes or cartoon villains.
• 21:15
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, and to recognize when people are going, you know, I think for me, figures are worthy of sympathy when they are, um, managed to be better than the average run of people at their time and in that context, not just when they live up to whatever our own ideals are today.
• 21:32
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I mean, that's, that's just impossible.
• 21:35
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, it's asking too much.
• 21:36
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And so I think somebody like Palma, for instance, Salvador Palma, um, uh, I will not try to say his Alicotequiebe or something like that.
• 21:45
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It would be his, uh, his question name, by the way, but he, he himself desired to go by Palma, it seems like in the sources.
• 21:51
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So I think we can call him that.
• 21:53
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, I think he's one of those people.
• 21:54
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I think he is, I have a lot of, Um, sympathy and admiration, uh, for him.
• 22:00
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I think he was trying to, um, uh, really do well by, by his people and in a kind of a pretty noble and big hearted way.
• 22:11
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, and Garcés similarly, and there are certain people who don't, who don't reach that standard, but I think you just have to have very reasonable standards.
• 22:21
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So for example, there's, um, uh, I give examples of priests, missionaries mistreating various groups.
• 22:31
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I already mentioned the German speaking Jesuits on the frontier who have some guilts on their hands that way.
• 22:36
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: There were Franciscan friars in Hopi land who also had committed terrible, heinous crimes against them.
• 22:49
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: But then you have two, you know, um People like Garcés and others, uh, speaking out against slavery on the frontier, calling it an abomination, speaking out against mistreatment.
• 23:02
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, you know, uh, Garcés himself liberated two slave girls, uh, traded some much needed supplies for them.
• 23:11
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, as he was starting his 1775, 76 expedition and ends up encountering them back with their family and their, and their people, uh, I think they were Houshodoma girls on the Colorado river later and took a lot of pleasure in that.
• 23:25
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I mean, that's.
• 23:27
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It's hard for me to not see that as pretty laudable, even as it, we know there are the unintended consequences of like, well, you're perpetuating a trade, but, but what are you supposed to do if you're in this situation, you know, um, and someone like him was acting to, um, achieve the good as he saw it.
• 23:45
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: as best as he could.
• 23:46
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And I think that's, um, uh, you don't have to agree, uh, with him, um, on, on what that good, if it was good, necessarily, but, um, I think that the, the motivation's pretty clearly laudable.
• 24:03
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: What would you say, if you had to sum it up briefly, what would you say Garcés legacy is, especially for us, uh, who live in the American West, uh, Southwest, uh, the, the area that, that he, that he traveled through?
• 24:24
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Yeah, um, I think two things for sure.
• 24:30
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I think it came out, If he doesn't find that route to, a usable route to, to Alta California and then, um, you know, help make that Anza expedition, the first expedition of 1774 happen, it was very much because of him that it did.
• 24:47
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, who knows when San Francisco is founded, um, what happens there, and then everything cascades after that LA.
• 24:55
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So I think he's a significant figure in the settlement, the Spanish, uh, settlements are moved into.
• 25:02
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, and I think things could have been a lot different historically, were it not for his, um, pathfinding and alliance making and friend making there at Yuma with the questions.
• 25:16
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, he also, and there's a, uh, a man named Peter Whiteley, who's at work on a book on this, which I'm really looking forward to.
• 25:24
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: His diaries are a source of, uh, really significant ethnological data.
• 25:31
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Some groups on the lower Colorado, the only real data we have is from Garcés.
• 25:37
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I say data, I mean anything, you know, um, not just numbers, but like, um, um, uh, information about how they lived and so forth.
• 25:46
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So I think he's, he left an ethnological legacy, even though he's certainly not a scholar and, uh, uh, someone who is a better writer might've left, uh, uh, more useful.
• 25:59
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: writing for us, but then again, they never would have been where he was probably on his own doing what he was doing.
• 26:04
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, and then the third really is from the perspective of, um, his work as a missionary.
• 26:11
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I think he anticipated a different way of doing missionary work, uh, that would, you would, we would see not that there's a direct line from what he did to what came about later in the 19th and 20th centuries.
• 26:24
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, Up till today, but he certainly is somebody you could look back on and saying he, um, here's someone who anticipated a different and better model.
• 26:35
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: It was a more patient and understanding and, uh, model that relied and it privileged or foregrounded the need for sympathetic identification more than, um, you know, a, uh, an approach that didn't do that.
• 26:52
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So I think that would be his
• 26:53
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 26:55
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: I think that, um, I think we need more, more stories, more knowledge of people like him, uh, who, who who communicate a not only heroism, courage, but also a bridge between different, different peoples, different cultures, different, even different groups with different aspirations, right?
• 27:18
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Um, I think that that's, that's really, really interesting.
• 27:22
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Um, so.
• 27:26
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Another curious question, but you live in Arizona.
• 27:30
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Did the fact, um, did the fact of where you live have something to do with this interest in Garcés and the fact that he spent plenty of time there in what's today Arizona?
• 27:45
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Oh,
• 27:48
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I only picked up, it was Robert Kittel's book, Franciscan Frontiersman, that led me to this.
• 27:53
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And I only picked that up because I saw, um, I was looking for things about Arizona's past.
• 27:59
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I've been here for 16 years.
• 28:00
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I like to know the history of where I am.
• 28:03
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And a search for great stories in those places.
• 28:07
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So, uh, yeah, absolutely.
• 28:09
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I was looking for an Arizona book to write.
• 28:13
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Uh, and this just happened to be what sort of came out of that search.
• 28:19
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I, he's not known Garcés in Arizona any more than he is anywhere else.
• 28:23
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: As far as I can tell, uh, there is a.
• 28:26
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: There are two statues of him that I know of in the world.
• 28:29
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: One is in a traffic circle in Bakersfield.
• 28:32
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Um, yeah, yeah, which is, it's a really, um, kind of an art deco period, um, modernist statue.
• 28:42
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: There's a picture in the book.
• 28:43
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Yeah, it's very interesting.
• 28:45
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: But, uh, not, I wouldn't say it's the most prominent place in Bakersfield or anywhere else for a statue.
• 28:52
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And then there's also one of him also done around the same time at the St.
• 28:58
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Thomas Indian Mission, which is located exactly where Garcés mission was of the Immaculate Conception in 1779 to 1781, just across the Colorado River from Yuma.
• 29:15
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: And so there's a statue of him in front of the church there.
• 29:20
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So that's kind of But, to my point though, nobody in Arizona, um, thinks about him or knows about him to my, you know, you see his name on a couple of things here or there, like a Knights of Columbus, you know, parish council or something, but not, not well known.
• 29:38
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: So it was a way to make him more known to Arizonans was definitely something I wanted to
• 29:43
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: All right.
• 29:45
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Well, um, when is the book out?
• 29:48
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Is it out already or is it out soon?
• 29:52
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: September 17th, So I don't know when this is coming out, Damian, but that's the official release date and you can order it already on Amazon and places
• 29:59
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Okay, so when this airs, it should be out already.
• 30:03
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: That's great.
• 30:04
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: Uh, Beyond the Devil's Road, Francisco Garcés and the Spanish Encounter with the American Southwest.
• 30:11
  damian-bacich_1_09-06-2024_093519: And this is part of the, uh, Before Gold series of the University of Oklahoma Press,
• 30:18
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: Thank you, Damian.
• 30:19
  jeremy_1_09-06-2024_093520: I really appreciate it.
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