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Faith, Law, and Mercy: Navigating Obergefell, Beggars, and Grace · Relish: a Christian podcast

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  Relish pleasing or zestful flavor a quantity
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  just sufficient to flavor to be pleased or
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  gratified by enjoy we are hoping that what we bring to your table today might
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  add some spice to your life ladies and gentlemen welcome back to another episode
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  of relish i'm roan miller this is don patterson don how are you doing better i think yeah,
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  Oh, dear. I think we recovered from the last episode. Let's hope so. Yes, I hope so, too. Yes.
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  All right. Well, we're back to the question and answer format.
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  So I bring the questions. It's a much more comfortable format. I bet it is.
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  I bring the questions from you guys, from friends, family, church.
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  And I look at them myself without any preparation ahead of time and believe
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  it or not I'm more comfortable with that yeah I mean you've been filming so
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  many of these this yeah it's like home for you just yeah it's used to it I agree
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  I agree gotten quite good at it I would say well,
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  yeah like anything there's room for improvement but we're trying all right well
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  first one here Interesting question, but can you describe what heaven is like and what hell is like?
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  I can describe it by what I've seen scripture talk about.
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  I guess I would go from the, like Lazarus, the story that Jesus gives of Lazarus
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  and how the, he's in the bosom of Abraham.
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  Lazarus is in the bosom of Abraham, well taken care of, beautiful place.
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  And on the other side, the rich man whose gate Lazarus was at,
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  then is in hell and torment and just wanting at least some drink because it's so, so hot.
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  Then we go to the revelation. Yeah, just drop of water is all he wanted.
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  And that would have been a break for him. He didn't think he was asking for
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  too much. And then we go to...
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  Revelation, and we realize that it's a fiery lake of burning sulfur.
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  Well, that don't sound comfortable. Not at all.
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  And it's the lake of fire, verse 14 of chapter 20.
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  It is the second death. So as if the first one wasn't enough,
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  this is a second death. Can you imagine feeling death every day?
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  Constant every day. No, that doesn't sound good.
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  So anyone's name that was not written in the book of life, he throws into the lake of fire.
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  Well, that sounds like maybe I don't want to go that route.
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  On the contrast then, if you go into like chapter four of Revelation,
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  it's beautiful place, five, you go, heaven is a beautiful place.
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  I really, if I would characterize heaven, I'd rather go to chapter 21 and talk
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  about heaven being the new Jerusalem.
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  And you get a lot of aspects of the building, 12 foundations,
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  and each foundation was precious stone, pearls for gates.
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  It's a lavish spot. And if we move from John 14 to Revelation 21,
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  we realize that God's creating a space for us.
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  Jesus creates a space for us in that new heaven.
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  So I, yeah, I'm, I'm looking for a new real estate update.
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  Yeah. Streets of gold.
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  Don't have to worry about darkness. Clear and snow in the winter.
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  Yeah. I won't have to get the Steiner out to move snow. Yeah.
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  That is heaven. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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  So that's how, those are the images that come to my mind when we start talking about heaven.
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  I think that's all we need to know to know where we want to be.
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  Given the contrast, I think given the contrast, I want to go the higher ground. Yeah.
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  Yeah. So we have some Some
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  current day topic here It's the
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  Supreme Court is They could consider overturning The Obergefell Versus Hodges
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  Which was the court ruling The Supreme Court ruling that legalized gay marriage
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  In 2015 So As like Christians And Mennonites We.
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  Like we see that And historically, biblically,
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  gay marriage is not okay, I'll just say.
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  And so as Christians and Mennonites, what stance should we have on this?
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  Should we hope that they overturn it, which would still leave it up to the states?
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  So it wouldn't be illegal everywhere? but politically i think it should be left
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  in the hands of the state okay because when you start,
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  the this is sort of micro dealing with moral issues and you're going to end
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  up with a lot of back and forth on a national level it could be better handled
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  on a state level than nationally,
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  And so I think handing it back to states is the right thing to do.
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  Morally, the sin issue... Okay, so...
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  It might be easier if I say this, is should we like let our religious morals
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  kind of like push us into the politics of it or should we just try to stay out
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  of it or what's the step there?
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  Part of it is what will people do with our conversation?
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  So if we take a political stance, what are they going to do with that stance?
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  Are they going to twist it around for their own agenda? I know an evangelist
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  that's been trying to get into Canada, and because of the rhetoric around that evangelist,
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  he couldn't get a permit.
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  They charged a fine to the church that was going to sponsor them.
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  So they went ahead and had the meeting in a strawberry field so that they wouldn't
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  fit in those other things.
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  Then. And so they had gotten all this, that it was Hamas that was trying to do this.
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  And this guy, this evangelist was from Hamas and he was going to make them under
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  the, what is that? Shakira law.
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  They were going to invoke Shakira law. And so all this false information had come out.
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  And then somebody who had heard all this rhetoric wanted to infiltrate the meeting
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  and find out what it was all about.
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  And they came out of the meeting saying, what? They preached Jesus.
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  They sang worship songs. They prayed.
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  And not once did any of this other political agenda come out from this evangelist.
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  And so the question came is, how come all this rhetoric came out to blacklist,
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  if you will, this Christian evangelist?
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  So when we move our rhetoric, our talk into the political arena,
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  then we start to gain the...
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  The negative of the other side's agenda. Okay. So it has less to do with Christ.
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  It has more to do with, well, you don't want me to do what I want to do.
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  Yeah. Well, people are going to push back if you tell them you can't do that anymore.
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  We, yeah, I don't agree with gay marriage and I believe we have to live in to
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  a different way than the gay lifestyle.
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  That being said, why do we separate that from gossip?
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  Or some of the other things that are on this list that impurity,
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  debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage.
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  Selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, orgies.
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  We don't have a, I mean, there's certain statutes on the books.
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  Most of them are local, but we're not nationally working with those.
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  Yeah. And so you can't legislate morality.
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  You can't legislate a relationship with Jesus Christ.
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  But what we can do as Christians is live into our Christ-likeness to such an
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  extent that we bring a sense of there's something more.
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  There's something more in this life than to live this we've currently lived.
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  And we can do it together for Jesus.
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  So, I'd rather have discussion come back to the States.
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  I'd rather have it dealt more by calm voices and spiritual background than on
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  the national stage that gets such craziness going. Yeah.
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  Sort of like they did with that evangelist. That was crazy. So, kind of…,
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  staying out of some political stuff and like not being so direct with them kind of to protect the,
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  like our actual faith and our religious rights and stuff like that. Okay.
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  Interesting. And I think my, my point is how do we make sure there's clarity in the message?
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  Because we get on the national stage, the clarity will go away.
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  Yeah. In the conversation between you and I, we can get some clarity.
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  Whereas we do it in Facebook and other venues, social media,
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  there's not the clarity. We're not doing it face-to-face.
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  And nobody, fewer people are wanting to do that because social media is so much easier. Yeah.
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  Well, and like, but you were just saying there, I remember in our history class at Hillcrest,
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  we were talking about how like the presidential debates used to be the nominees
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  would go speak for 45 minutes straight. The next one go up to the same thing.
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  And then they'd each have like a rebuttal after that.
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  And now it's like they have a clock for three minutes or something.
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  And then, but they never actually answer the question because they're just insulting
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  the other. Oh yeah, mudslinging.
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  Yeah, so that's where it, the national level, it kind of just muddies it up
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  rather than actual conversation or information.
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  Yeah, because if you actually take a stance, then you've got to defend the stance. Yeah.
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  And then that defending that stance will naturally polarize the conversation. So now what?
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  Yeah. I think it's interesting. We have no moderates. Yeah, no moderates in the conversation.
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  We've got two extremes that are out there getting plenty of notoriety,
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  but there's no moderates.
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  Jesus was not a moderate.
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  But he knew exactly what he stood for. Yeah. And he lived exactly for what he
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  stood, put his life on the line for what he stood for.
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  I think he asks us to do the same thing. I'm not sure we do it well,
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  but I think we could do it well.
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  And to start out with your original question, I'd back it up and I say,
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  we could probably do it better on the state level than the government level,
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  because I don't think we're ever going to get a clear stance and a forum for a clear voice.
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  Because it'll always have that other tagging along.
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  Do you remember what it was like when the Supreme Court first legalized gay
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  marriage in 2015? Do you remember? Yes.
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  Yeah, I do. And of course, our church was polarized at that time as well. Yeah.
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  Yeah, it was a painful time. mm-hmm i
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  i some churches would not
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  allow gays in the building yeah and that hurts i mean that's like those are
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  the people that well really need him like when we start saying the sanctuary
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  isn't a sanctuary a safe place to bring sinners including ourselves in to hear the word that,
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  How are we going to have a spot where we can actually allow the spirit to move
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  to change lives, including my own? Yeah.
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  I mean, no sin is worse than the other. No sin is worse than the other.
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  They're all sin. They all have fallen short of the glory of God.
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  And here we've heightened this one to the point that it has become divisive.
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  I mean, gossip. We don't heighten gossip to that level. Yeah.
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  And, of course, then we want to say that this is so much worse because it's
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  sexual. Well, orgies are sexual. I mean, premarital sex is sexual.
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  We don't have any, we're not doing that stuff like we once did.
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  But for some reason, this has gained notoriety.
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  And so many in the gay community come with a heart wound that needs healed.
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  And we're not being in the church and healing those wounds.
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  Yeah. So we need to step up. so i
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  think when it comes back to the states we have a better chance of
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  actually making that happen maybe more
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  lives will be touched with the gospel yeah what
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  should we do about beggars when we see a beggar when we see a homeless person
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  like do we do we give to them kind of i mean it seems like and we kind of know
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  oftentimes it doesn't actually go to what go to food or go to water,
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  like kind of what they need, but how do we handle that?
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  I have this little way I handle it. I don't know. So you can criticize it if you want.
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  I sort of say, okay, Lord, if so, how much?
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  If you want me to give, how much? And through that, there's been times I give and I give.
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  Well, in my thinking substantially. And there's times that I won't give it all.
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  Because it seems like that's not to happen. And so I have a conversation and
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  ask the Holy Spirit, ask God, do I give in this time or don't I?
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  And it's actually served quite well because a lot of times there'll come a conversation
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  and you find out that it's a legitimate need.
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  And then there's other times where you sort of realize that this guy is a professional beggar. Yeah.
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  And maybe in a system of professional beggars.
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  And so they, you know, vie for certain street corners and go home with more than you and I make.
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  So I let the Spirit inform my giving.
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  Yeah. It just seems to work better for me. I don't walk away feeling guilty then.
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  I've asked the Lord what He wants and I comply with His wishes.
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  Sort of like when John, in the Gospel of John, we see Jesus every once in a
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  while saying, I am doing what I see the Father doing. Yeah.
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  And going that route. So that's the way I operate. Doesn't mean you have to
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  operate that way, but that's how I operate with those.
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  There's some legitimate needs out there.
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  Jesus could do a little more than we can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he is much more capable than we are.
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  Yeah. for sure alright I believe that is all I think I'm empty.
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  I think I'm tapped out how do we tap out of this,
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  alright well thank you guys for joining us feel free to subscribe,
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  like it, share it follow it any of those whatever your platform says you can
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  do it will help us reach more people So that's all we want from it.
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  And thank you guys for sending in questions. If you have, feel free to send
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  them in, reach out to me or me or Alex. Don't reach out to me.
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  Otherwise I'll know the question ahead of time and that won't serve well.
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  Yeah. Yeah. If you want Don to prepare, to prepare a longer episode then,
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  or for something. We can preach on just about everything. Yeah.
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  Believe me. Yeah. But. Yeah. Thank you guys for joining us and we will see you next time.
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  Thank you for joining us for this podcast. Feel free to become part of this
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  ministry by sharing with others.
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  Our goal is to help each other grow deeper in our understanding of who God is
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  and is calling to us in our daily lives.
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  Thank you again for joining us and may God bless your day.