Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Let Them Work: Temple Grandin on Real Healing for Autism & Anxiety | Ep 34 Equine Assisted World

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Let Them Work: Temple Grandin on Real Healing for Autism & Anxiety | Ep 34 Equine Assisted World · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
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author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
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Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
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thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
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I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
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It really helps us get this work done.
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As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
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And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
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equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
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If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
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com.
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So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
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Big Drum Roll.
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I've got Temple Grand in here with us.
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This is somebody we all need to be mentored by.
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Those of you who know Horse Boy Method, movement Method our
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programs, it all started with me seeking out mentorship from Temple.
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Why did I do that?
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Because I'm not autistic.
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So when my son showed up with autism, I realized that if I went
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to anybody else for help who didn't have autism, well what I'd get would
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be an opinion, not lived experience.
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And I needed to find somebody who had started life as severe
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as my son, IE, nonverbal, et cetera, and who'd kind of made it.
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And who's that person?
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Of course that person is Temple Grandin.
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So.
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20 years ago, I sat in a office with you, temple, and I asked
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you, how does my son become you?
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And you told me to do three things and I've done the, I did those
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three things and everything worked.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:39
And what were the three
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Rupert Isaacson: things?
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The three things you told me to do were, number one, follow the child,
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which in itself was three things.
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He said, you have to follow the child.
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Physically like obser observation because the kid's not gonna tell you if
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they're nonverbal, what they wanna do.
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You have to sit, you have to follow them.
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So you see the patterns of what they wanna do.
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Two, you said you have to follow them emotionally, which means sensory.
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Really.
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You have to see what's in the environment when they're melting down and what's
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in the environment when they're happy.
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And again, because you're observing them, eliminate the
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bad sensory triggers, which are.
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Generally manmade.
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And you gave me Yeah.
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Some good ones to go with, and that way the kid will build resilience for
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when they have to deal with that stuff.
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That's, and then you said the third thing.
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I had to follow the child intellectually.
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And this was a bit of a, a, a puzzle for me because I was like, well,
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I'm got a non-verbal three-year-old.
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I'm not having conversations.
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And you pointed out, you said, ah, but Rupert, it's in
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the obsessions, it's in the.
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It's in the obsessive interests.
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Yeah.
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And it's also in the patterns of the stemming, if it's repetitive banging, if
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it's right angles of lining things up, that could point to a math, science brain.
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If it's elliptical lining things up and sensory type exploratory
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stemming, you could be looking at art, an art storytelling brain,
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or you could be looking at both.
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And these things completely made sense to me.
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And then you said, okay, you've also gotta do your stuff outside.
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Mostly because there's fewer bad sensory triggers in nature
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because we're just organisms.
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That's where we're supposed to be.
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And let him move because people on the spectrum, indeed, most people are
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primarily kinetic, kinesthetic learners.
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And I followed that advice and that's what led us to Betsy.
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And then that's what led us to the horse, and that's what led us to horse
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boy method and him becoming verbal.
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So the, so just a, a thing to listeners before we, we give over to Temple.
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Seek advice if you are in the neurocognitive field from the
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population that you serve, be mentored by them because they are the ones who
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actually understand the condition.
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And then if you do that, you're going to be probably getting rational advice.
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Okay.
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So Temple, thank you so much for coming on.
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I've rambled.
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Tell us what you are working on at the moment and what do you think in
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the neurocognitive field, particularly for the equine practitioners, what
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should we be most aware of now?
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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Well, I have found that there's kind of three ways that
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autistic kids react to animals.
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Love 'em at first sight.
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The second kind, afraid of 'em at first.
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But then if you introduce 'em slowly and carefully, then they love them.
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And then there's a few kids where they're probably not appropriate.
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Like, they don't like to smell of the animal or, or something, or the
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they're afraid the horse might Winnie.
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That's kind of a patterns I've seen.
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And I've had parents tell me their kids said their first words on a horse, and
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I think this has to do with rhythm and balancing going on at the same time.
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I just got back in the ICAN conference and there was a PET scan shown there
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that showed that the cerebellum was underactive and rhythm and balance
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stimulates the vestibular system.
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Those OTs have found years ago that that kind of stuff is helpful and we gotta
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get these kids out doing things because Katie Peters, our specialist at, at CSU
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did a study and she compared horses.
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With taking the child out in a beautiful garden park that
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we own and weightless control.
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And the horses were the best, but the garden had some efficacy.
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So I wanna emphasize we don't have access to horses.
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Just getting 'em out in nature, getting 'em out in a park and,
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and looking at plants and talking to 'em that has some efficacy.
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I think that's important.
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Rupert Isaacson: And presumably we want to combine these things, right?
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We don't just wanna Absolutely.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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Yeah.
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It would be best if you combine, put kids in isolation and
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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Totally agree.
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The best thing to do be to combine them.
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Mm-hmm.
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And, and the other problem I'm running into now is with getting three year olds
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that are nonverbal onto your wait lists.
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Hmm.
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That's absolutely unacceptable.
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And there's some parts of the US where that's going on right now, so the worst
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thing you could do is let 'em zone out on the phone for for two years.
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No, that's what you don't wanna have 'em doing.
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And one of the things that was a big.
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Factor in my therapy was when I was really little, when I was
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two and a half, was lots of turn.
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Taking games, learning how to wait and take turns at games, all kinds of little
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games, spinning a coin, we're gonna take turns, spinning the coin, you know,
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learn to throw a ball back and forth.
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Just do little interactive games.
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And what I suggested in a lot of situations here, they're not
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gonna have access to horses.
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Well, let's start church play and library play and let's tap into the retirees.
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And there's lots of retirees right now they are using, it's a generational
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Rupert Isaacson: contact.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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And.
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And get them to come in and work for these little kids.
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And we're gonna call it library play for legal reasons.
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We can't say we're doing therapy even though we are
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Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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It's church play and library play.
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Rupert Isaacson: But we've got also, I prefer the word play because I have
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never yet met a kid that wanted therapy.
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I've met plenty of kids that would like to play, but I never yet met
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a kid that woke up in the morning, said, Hey, you know what I want?
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I want some therapy.
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Yeah, no,
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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no.
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But they, they, we've got to do something.
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And these are places I've been to within the last year.
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This is right now, right now.
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Not something 10 years ago.
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It's now the last 12 months.
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And we've got to start working with 'em and we've gotta just
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tap into whatever resources we've got there in the neighborhood.
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Rupert Isaacson: So when you say church play and library play, what,
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can you describe what that entails?
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What does it look like?
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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Well, a good teacher, I've watched them just knows how, how to.
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Push just enough to get into the kids' world to interact.
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Mm-hmm.
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So you might start out taking turns if he's flapping something, take turns
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flapping it, it's something that basic take turns spinning a single coin on.
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Some of this is somewhat done in the Sunrise program in an old, old book called
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The Hidden Child emphasized on on getting in an interaction, going with the kid
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where there's some kind of an interaction.
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And what I have found is some teachers have the knack to do this and some don't,
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Rupert Isaacson: but teachers that don't, some
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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people just instinctively can engage these kids,
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Rupert Isaacson: but the, for the pe, the people that don't, and let's
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face it, a lot of horse people are.
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A little bit too horse focused.
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What's your advice for how to enter into the world of an autistic child?
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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Well, you might just he flaps you flap.
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Rupert Isaacson: So some, some degree of imitation.
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It might be that simple.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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Or let's say we're in a library and or church basement or someplace like
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that and the good teacher might just start doing something like that.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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And then gradually get it into where we take turns doing something.
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Okay.
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And is that building what they call theory of mind, a turn taking activity?
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And I've watched these teachers that just have the knack.
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Some people have it, some don't.
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And we've got so many retirees and I just read an article the other
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day, cruises and golfers are not all what it's cracked up to be.
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They'd probably rather be having, doing something worthwhile
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working with these kids.
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Yes.
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And I don't, I don't know what else we can do.
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They, the only resources they've got are their church or their library and just, or
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neighborhood group, something like that.
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And this is something that, you know, real low income communities could do this.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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That's not trying.
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The worst thing
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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you can do is nothing.
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Yeah.
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That's the worst thing you can do.
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Let them, let them watch TV all day or play with phones all day.
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That's exactly what they should not be doing.
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Rupert Isaacson: Now once you've got some interaction going and presumably
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some theory of mind beginning to form I've heard you often say, we've gotta
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get these kids out there doing things.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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Yes, absolutely.
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Rupert Isaacson: When, when kids are at this, that fragile state where they're
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just beginning to come out of their shell, but they're still having trouble
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understanding top-down instruction and, you know, it could be so easy to.
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Kill their confidence and knock them backwards.
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Yeah.
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What's your advice on beginning to help them to do tasks?
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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Well, first of all, I just gotta interact with 'em before
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I can start working on talking.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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I've got to just get interacting with 'em.
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My therapy had a huge amount of emphasis on taking turns at games.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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And then you broaden the games that you play, you know, and Bill
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Gates and I both had a lot of card games, a lot of board games.
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That's when we got older and we were talking.
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Mm-hmm.
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Rupert Isaacson: Because what
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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I think this did is it helps you to inhibit a response.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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Got to wait your turn.
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That's something really, really important.
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And then just, I can remember being taken out for walks and
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we'd go identify plants and.
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We had maple trees and you, you know, they, we call them maple
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keys, the thing seed things, and you could throw 'em up in the air and
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they'd spin like little helicopters.
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I can remember doing that when I was very young.
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You could also pull 'em apart, stick 'em on your nose.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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Another thing that we did, now other parts of the world won't have that type
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of tree, but that's something that we had.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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But that basic interaction with nature, sort of sensory, exploratory, it's
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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interaction.
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That's right.
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It's interaction.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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And I remember making daisy chains as a kid.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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You know, sitting in the middle of a field doing that.
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These are things that didn't, you know, cost anything to do.
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Rupert Isaacson: I think that's one that you just getting me out doing things
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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and then a little later on.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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would had snow where I lived and so I, would it be one sled?
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My sister and I had to take turns going on the sled going down the
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hill, learn how to take turns.
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Another just in all sorts of activities.
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Rupert Isaacson: The daisy chain is interesting to me because
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the daisy chain is a task.
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But it's a task that one can do meditatively and also without
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too much top down instruction.
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'cause one can observe how somebody else does it.
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Well you just
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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show them how to do it.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But I
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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remember making daisy chains as a kid.
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I can remember looking for four leaf clovers.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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And that's another thing we used to do.
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'cause we had a lot of clover where I lived too.
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And you know, then we'd go for drive.
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So it was a game where you spot different things when you're out for a drive.
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Can you spot a white horse?
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Can you spot a sign for a particular type of gas station?
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Mm-hmm.
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And it was a game that, you know, we played on car trips.
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Make car trips less boring.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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And I could see how even that the I spy stuff is actually a task.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
13:25
It's 'cause you have a mission.
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It's, I would now remember you know, it was a little cards that we got and I
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remember what we did find a white horse.
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You had to find a certain sign for certain brand of gasoline.
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Mm-hmm.
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Certain types of cars you looked for.
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And that gave, I remember doing this and it gave us you know, made
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a two hour trip, a lot less boring.
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Rupert Isaacson: And of course, one can do that stuff on the back of a horse.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
13:51
Well the, yeah.
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And the other thing I wanna talk about is high expectations with accommodations.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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Tell us about that.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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I'm hearing, I'm hearing a lot more problems right now with
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opposition, oppositional defiant, and all that kind of stuff.
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Mm-hmm.
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And there were certain things I was expected to do.
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Also wanna let you know, there's a new book out by Bill Gates.
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It's official.
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He's autistic called Source Code.
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And what's interesting is the way he was brought up was very similar to me.
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You know, when we were fully verbal, we had to sell candy for charity
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to learn how to talk to people.
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When we were eight years old, I, we had to dress up in good clothes.
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And when the parents had a party talk to the guests.
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Now I'm realizing just how important that was teaching me on how to go
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up to people, Melissa, about high expectations with accommodations.
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And he had just the right amount of pressure to do things with some support
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and, and when we went on vacation, we had to go on one of these ferries
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where you drive onto it, the cars.
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And this boat had a horrible loud horn.
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And when we were sitting up on the deck and the horn went up, I found
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myself on the deck and I screamed.
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Now, they did not make me sit under that horn.
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They let me ride in the cabin below.
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That was the accommodation.
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But we are going on that verity.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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But we will make an accommodation.
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You can sit in the cabin below.
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Okay.
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Today it'd be noise canceling headsets that did not exist in the fifties.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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But that was the accommodation, you know.
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Then we'd have Sunday dinner at Granny's or at my aunt's house, and
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I had a place where I could exercise.
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There was a hall I was allowed to run up and down, and that helped
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to, you know, keep me calmer.
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Then there was some rules.
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You had to sit at the family table for 20 minutes, and then if I asked
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to be excused and dessert, dessert hadn't served, didn't get any.
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So if I wanted dessert, I had to stay at the table longer.
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Also, always some choices on, on doing things.
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You know, there's things you gotta do.
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We're going to go on that ferry, but you don't have to sit under the horn.
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You can sit in the cabin under the deck.
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And that's where I went.
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Rupert Isaacson: When we get to the point where we now want to think about actual
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meaningful tasks, so for example, you, you were describing selling cookies.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
16:32
Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: To learn to, you were describing learning how to talk to people
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graciously at a dinner par, you know, at a party when people are being welcomed in.
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One of the things I feel that is a really sometimes missed opportunity
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in the equine field is that the kids can do so much around the farm.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
16:53
Exactly.
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Clean the salt and the best
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Rupert Isaacson: programs I see are the ones where the kids are, or adults
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too, are fully involved to whatever degree they can be in everything from
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cleaning the poo to landscaping, to looking after the chickens to Right.
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And also particularly learning about tools.
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Yeah.
17:17
Talk to us about that because I, well, I
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
17:20
can remember weeding the garden when I was really young.
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You know, we had some landscaping and I can remember taking weeds out of that.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Dr. Temple Grandin:
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I was doing that as a really young child.
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Yeah.
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Kids need to get involved with this sort of stuff.
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Rupert Isaacson: I remember when I, I think Rowan was, he's now
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23, when he was about 14 I began to worry that he didn't have.
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A work ethic, even though he was growing up on a ranch and we'd
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made all sorts of accommodations and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
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And he was doing all his homeschooling, but I was thinking, oh man, you
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know, this is his time to build technical skills and also physical
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strength, and how do I do this?
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How do I do this?
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And so one day I was going out trail trail clearing, and I had a, a machete
18:10
and I had big clippers to open up a trail.
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And I knew he'd be really scared of that.
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And so I said to him, would you just, he was talking to me about something and I
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said, what you're saying is fascinating, but I have to go and clear this trail.
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Would you please come and talk to me while I do this so I
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don't miss what you're saying?
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And immediately he smelled a rat, you know, he was like, oh, dad's gonna make
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me do something I don't want to do.
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So I said, don't worry, I'm not gonna make you, you know, use these tools, but
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I do need, I do wanna hear what you say.
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So I wanted him to observe me using them.
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And then somewhere into that day I said.
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Do you want to have a go and cut like one branch?
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And he is like, no.
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He is totally afraid of failure of the blade of everything.
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And I said, okay, here's my challenge.
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Can you touch it with the tip of your finger for one second?
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Just one second.
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Can you touch it like that?
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And I made a big joke out of it.
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I touched it myself and they went, oh my God, you're really hot.
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So I was burning and I fell on the floor and I pretended
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to, you know, make a big deal.
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He laughed, he thought, found that funny.
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And he did touch it for that one second.
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And then the next day he touched it for two seconds.
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And by the third day he had a go to clip.
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One thing, fast forward two weeks later we were in the middle of a
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thicket, Texas heat, mosquitoes, insects, itching, thorns, scratching.
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And we were hacking and slashing our way through this and clipping and
19:37
clipping talking about something.
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And I realized that not two weeks before he'd had.
19:42
Complete fear and resistance.
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And I now had amnesia that that had ever happened.
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And a sort of penny drop for me about the need for tools and technical
19:51
skills, but coming into them gradually.
19:54
I've heard you talk quite a lot about the need for particularly people
19:57
on the spectrum to establish these hands-on technical tool-based skills.
20:05
Can you talk about why that's so important?
20:09
Dr. Temple Grandin:
20:09
Well, just learning how to, how to do things.
20:12
I can remember in second grade I was using screwdriver, pliers, and hammer,
20:17
and I had these little parachutes and I wanted to design a mechanism
20:21
to make them open more quickly.
20:23
And so I learned how to take the pliers and cut coat hangers and bend
20:29
like the end so I could make a cross beam like this, tie the strings
20:33
to, and it wasn't strong enough to just clip it, but I'd make a dent.
20:38
The coat hanger, and then I'd go like this and, and break it.
20:40
I remember doing that.
20:41
Rupert Isaacson: Did someone show you how to do that?
20:43
Dr. Temple Grandin:
20:43
Yeah, somebody, yeah, they they showed me how to use the pliers,
20:47
but I wasn't strong enough.
20:48
I was in second grade to just cut it.
20:50
I, I made a dent and then I bend it like this and then, then I
20:53
could take the ends of the wire and bend it and tie the string on.
20:56
I used to tinker for hours.
20:58
With stuff like this, did you have any
21:01
Rupert Isaacson: point where you were afraid of the tools
21:03
Dr. Temple Grandin:
21:03
and Yeah.
21:04
In the beginning, yeah.
21:05
I was kind of afraid of the tool, you know, and then you learn how to use it.
21:09
Okay.
21:09
Hammering nails with a hammer.
21:12
Rupert Isaacson: Do you remember the process by which you lost your fear?
21:16
Dr. Temple Grandin:
21:16
Lost what?
21:17
Rupert Isaacson: You lost the process by which you lost your fear.
21:19
It started
21:19
Dr. Temple Grandin:
21:19
gradually, just gradually using it.
21:22
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
21:23
Dr. Temple Grandin:
21:23
You know, I think that I, you know, someone had to show
21:26
me how to use it and then.
21:31
Just get me using it.
21:33
Rupert Isaacson: And I presume too, people were using these
21:35
tools around you all the time too.
21:36
Yeah, that's right.
21:37
Dr. Temple Grandin:
21:37
Yeah.
21:37
Yeah.
21:38
Then you, you see it.
21:40
You see we've got kids growing up today where they're just
21:43
totally removed from the, the world of all the practical things,
21:51
and I think that's a big problem.
21:54
Think it's a really big problem.
21:57
Rupert Isaacson: What do you see as the biggest problem with that?
21:59
Because as you know, up until quite recently, a lot of people have put their
22:04
faith in tech and said, well, you know, don't worry about that because all these
22:08
young autistic kids, they're all gonna grow up to be techies, so they don't
22:11
need to learn these hands on skills.
22:13
I've heard that.
22:13
I think it's
22:14
Dr. Temple Grandin:
22:14
ridiculous.
22:14
I think it's ridiculous.
22:16
We've got to get them out just doing things and then showing them how to do it.
22:21
I can remember walking on the beach and getting, picking up shells, and then we'd
22:26
make mosaics and we glue them shells to.
22:29
Cardboard and make artwork.
22:32
And I was shown how to use the glue in, stick the shells on the cardboard.
22:37
I remember making a turtle that had shells for its, you know, made the
22:42
shell, the turtle out of shells.
22:46
But someone, you know, someone shows you how to do it.
22:49
And then I really liked doing those things.
22:54
Rupert Isaacson: What's the neuroscience more or less of
22:58
learning how to use these tools?
23:00
Like what does it do to your brain?
23:01
Why is it important?
23:03
Dr. Temple Grandin:
23:03
Well, I give another, my sister and I outside rock collections and one
23:06
of the things we love to do is take a hammer and bust a rock in half
23:10
to see what it looked like inside.
23:12
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
23:13
Dr. Temple Grandin:
23:13
And we did quite a bit of that on, see what happened today.
23:19
Like their apartment buildings right near where I live.
23:22
You never even know that kids live in those buildings.
23:25
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
23:25
Dr. Temple Grandin:
23:25
Except I see the school bus unloading them and loading them.
23:29
That's the only way I would know that, you know, five year olds, six year
23:34
olds, seven year olds, you know, fairly little kids living in that building.
23:37
Even though it has a nice fenced in playground, I never see the kids on it.
23:42
I think that's a, a shame.
23:44
And there's a lot of controversy now about problems with social media being bad.
23:48
We just gotta get 'em, limit the screens.
23:51
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
23:52
Dr. Temple Grandin:
23:52
And get them out doing real stuff.
23:54
All kinds of real stuff.
23:56
Rupert Isaacson: Again,
23:57
Dr. Temple Grandin:
23:57
what And choices.
23:58
And this was done with Bill Gates on his mother, put him in Cub
24:01
Scouts, get him out doing things.
24:07
You know, when we went away for the summer, there was a neighborhood
24:10
children's group where we'd play softball and different organized games with
24:14
maybe, you know, seven or eight kids and.
24:19
That got me out out of my room doing things.
24:23
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
24:23
Mm-hmm.
24:23
Dr. Temple Grandin:
24:23
We've gotta get 'em out doing things.
24:24
And if you have horses, a available great.
24:27
And then the kids should be helping to clean the stalls
24:29
and take care of the horses.
24:34
Rupert Isaacson: What back, I think it, it's helpful for people to actually
24:38
sort of understand a little bit what goes on in the brain if kids do do
24:43
this stuff and what doesn't go on in the brain if they don't do this stuff.
24:48
Do you have any insights there?
24:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
24:50
Well
24:53
see, just getting out and doing the motor stuff.
24:55
I mean, the occupational therapist all the time talking about heavy
24:58
work and exercise is calming.
25:01
Mm-hmm.
25:01
But I worked with people that owned big machine shops that
25:06
were definitely autistic.
25:07
Mm-hmm.
25:07
You know, and they just grew up with tools.
25:09
They took shop class when I was in, in high school.
25:11
I think one of the worst things the schools have done.
25:14
Taking out the hands-on classes.
25:16
Right.
25:16
When I was in elementary school I did shop class in fifth grade.
25:20
I was sewing with a to toy sewing machine that actually sewed
25:23
in fourth grade, first grade.
25:25
We did all kinds of clay projects, and of course in my generation we made ashtrays.
25:29
That would never happen now.
25:31
But our school had all of these hands-on activities and I, and
25:39
we can't do everything online.
25:41
Rupert Isaacson: No.
25:44
A again, if we, I mean,
25:45
Dr. Temple Grandin:
25:45
I think we need to be, be I, we were limited to one hour of television a day.
25:49
Mm-hmm.
25:49
Rupert Isaacson: Period
25:51
Dr. Temple Grandin:
25:51
wasn't banned.
25:53
And mother had to approve the shows.
25:54
You know, Lassie was definitely approved also on the news.
25:59
You didn't see some of the stuff you're seeing now.
26:02
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
26:03
Dr. Temple Grandin:
26:03
The news was just talking heads and kind of boring.
26:05
I didn't wanna watch that in the fifties.
26:07
Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm mm.
26:10
If you don't cultivate these motor skills,
26:15
what is the cost to the brain?
26:20
What does not happen that should happen?
26:25
Dr. Temple Grandin:
26:25
I think there's just one thing that calms the kids down.
26:28
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
26:28
Doing
26:29
Dr. Temple Grandin:
26:29
these things.
26:30
Also, I look at things very career oriented.
26:33
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
26:33
These are,
26:34
Dr. Temple Grandin:
26:34
this can lead to careers.
26:36
Now, let's say you have a kid that, that's good at math.
26:39
Now that's not gonna show up in a 3-year-old, but let's say around
26:42
age six, seven, really good at math.
26:44
You need to move ahead in math.
26:46
Don't do baby boring math.
26:49
Move ahead.
26:50
That's not being done.
26:52
See, there's kind of a philosophy in a lot of our schools that kids are just all
26:57
the same and they're not all the same.
27:04
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
27:06
Dr. Temple Grandin:
27:06
We need to be building on strengths.
27:07
I mean, my art ability was encouraged and I was encouraged to draw lots and
27:12
lots of different kinds of things.
27:17
Rupert Isaacson: So these days, or until recently anyway, there has been, like
27:23
I said, I had this great faith in tech.
27:25
And because so many techies are on the spectrum, I think there's been
27:31
perhaps a bit of a skewed perspective that, well, it doesn't matter if these
27:36
kids grew up with practical skills because they're gonna go on and become
27:41
techies working in the tech industry.
27:43
Dr. Temple Grandin:
27:43
Well, I think you, what do you think about
27:45
Rupert Isaacson: that?
27:46
Dr. Temple Grandin:
27:46
Well, yeah, I go ahead and work in the tech industry, but you still
27:49
need to be doing practical things.
27:51
Mm-hmm.
27:51
And let's look at Steve Chops.
27:54
He was playing around with tools in his next door neighbor's garage.
27:58
Mm-hmm.
27:59
What Steve Chops was doing.
28:03
Rupert Isaacson: Because one, I know he
28:04
Dr. Temple Grandin:
28:04
wasn't, it wasn't just all devices.
28:08
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
28:08
And it, it seems to me that with AI coming in so fast, a lot of the
28:14
tech jobs of the last 20 years, oh, we're, we're will change.
28:17
Right?
28:17
We're not
28:17
Dr. Temple Grandin:
28:17
getting the, another reason for teaching skilled trades is they'll
28:21
be laughing all the way to the bank.
28:22
They'll have jobs when other people are getting laid off, low level
28:26
programming's already getting replaced.
28:29
Video game industry just laid off a whole ton of people.
28:32
I've been reading in the Wall Street Journal, this corporate office
28:35
now laid off a bunch of people.
28:36
Some companies do it nicely.
28:38
Some companies do it nasty.
28:40
And, but some of these jobs are gonna be getting replaced with ai
28:46
where things like fixing elevators.
28:49
It's not, and as I travel around, I'm seeing way too many elevators
28:52
that are not being serviced.
28:56
Broken or making really weird ominous noises, like I'm gonna
29:00
get stuck in it right now.
29:01
And I was in the hotels the other day where one of the cars,
29:04
there were six elevators there.
29:05
So that one on the left we're not going in.
29:09
I don't like the way it's acting.
29:10
We'll wait for another one.
29:12
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
29:13
Dr. Temple Grandin:
29:13
Getting stuck in an elevators, not something I wanna do.
29:17
Rupert Isaacson: Now, some people would say that I
29:18
Dr. Temple Grandin:
29:18
don't need to have that experience.
29:20
Rupert Isaacson: Some people would say that, oh, well all those jobs
29:22
are gonna be replaced by robots.
29:23
Dr. Temple Grandin:
29:23
No
29:24
Rupert Isaacson: bs.
29:25
Why?
29:25
Why is that bs?
29:27
Dr. Temple Grandin:
29:27
Well, one of the problems is, is you've got lots of different kinds of elevators.
29:30
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
29:32
Dr. Temple Grandin:
29:32
You've got some so variable.
29:34
And I wanna talk now some about the different kinds of thinkers.
29:37
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
29:38
And
29:38
Dr. Temple Grandin:
29:38
I discussed that in my book.
29:39
Visual thinking.
29:41
And I'm an object visualizer.
29:43
So the kinds of things I'm gonna be good at building things, working
29:47
with animals, 'cause animals that live in a sensory world.
29:50
Photography and art, and then you have your mathematical mind.
29:54
That's totally, you know, interested patterns, music and math go together.
29:59
And then you got the autistic kids, more of a word thinker.
30:02
They, they know all the word facts about their favorite movies or favorite
30:06
type of sports, something like that.
30:09
And,
30:12
and the ones that are object visualizers, like me, we can't do higher math.
30:17
I'm worried that algebra requirements are gonna screen us out.
30:20
But you need us.
30:21
I had a very interesting flight on a plane just about a month ago.
30:25
Talked to a military VE veteran, went in the army and
30:28
she failed algebra in college.
30:30
But she took the mechanical aptitude test for the army, got a super high score.
30:35
They put her to work fixing airplanes.
30:38
Mechanical aptitude is a skill.
30:41
It is, that's definitely merit based.
30:44
And our school system doesn't put any value on that.
30:46
They value mathematical skill and they value language skill,
30:51
but not mechanical aptitude.
30:55
And I think that's a problem.
30:57
Rupert Isaacson: As you say, you know, shop has been taken out
31:00
Dr. Temple Grandin:
31:00
well and what we're doing, we're putting shop back in the community
31:03
colleges, but that's almost too late.
31:06
We need to be hooking kids much earlier on.
31:10
Tools and things like that.
31:11
And I was doing this stuff in, well, in Europe you'd call primary school.
31:15
Mm-hmm.
31:15
We call it elementary school.
31:18
On working on these things really early.
31:23
Rupert Isaacson: Should we, in that case if we're right, if we're equine
31:26
practitioners, should we have a shop, should we have a workshop where,
31:31
Dr. Temple Grandin:
31:31
well, I think we ought to have a workshop
31:33
Rupert Isaacson: because this is often not there.
31:34
You know, it's often, you know, kids come, they're, they're put on a
31:38
horse, they're given their session.
31:42
And then they go home.
31:43
Dr. Temple Grandin:
31:43
Well, I think we need to be, you know, I think get the kids involved with
31:47
everything, with the horse, putting a tack on the horse grooming a horse before
31:52
and after cleaning stalls, feeding them.
31:56
Rupert Isaacson: Does it need to go further than that?
31:57
Do we need to be working, doing the leather work?
31:59
Do we need to be sewing up, you know, boards to build
32:03
new store, the fencing, the,
32:05
Dr. Temple Grandin:
32:05
you know, well, yeah, and I, when I took care of horses when I was in high
32:07
school and the horse kicked a hole in the back of the stall, yeah, I did fix it.
32:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
32:12
Dr. Temple Grandin:
32:12
Something that I did and, and I did do some carpentry, simple
32:17
carpentry work on the barn.
32:18
But I remember one of the horses, I kicked the whole back of the
32:21
stall out and I went and I found these super hard old oak boards.
32:26
It was so hard you couldn't nail nails from and put them up in the back of the
32:31
stall, and he was not able to kick those.
32:35
Rupert Isaacson: So would it be a really good idea?
32:37
For example, let's say you are an overworked person running a
32:40
therapeutic riding program and you are just busy with the whole thing.
32:44
You talked earlier about getting retirees into help.
32:47
Dr. Temple Grandin:
32:47
Well, we need to be getting retirees in.
32:49
And the other thing is, I know that like in a path program they ev
32:53
everyone's very concerned about safety, getting sued and stuff like that.
32:56
Mm-hmm.
32:57
That can get to the point where that can cripple you because I'd like to
33:00
see retired mechanic come in and start teaching some auto shop to some of these.
33:05
Absolutely.
33:05
Not the five year olds, but some of the older kids and, and some of the
33:11
people that are, that are in the tech industry have been extremely successful.
33:15
Weren't just all screens.
33:17
They were out doing all kinds of hands-on stuff.
33:19
Rupert Isaacson: Right?
33:20
Well, yes, the generation that created the tech industry, of course there were
33:23
no screens when they were growing up.
33:25
Well, the
33:26
Dr. Temple Grandin:
33:26
other difference on the video games is that some of the older tech people.
33:31
When video games would crash all the time.
33:33
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
33:33
And
33:33
Dr. Temple Grandin:
33:33
instead of just coming up with a blue screen of death saying the system's
33:36
crashed all this code would show up.
33:39
I call it a computer showing its guts.
33:42
Okay.
33:42
When the old systems crashed, you then got a blue screen full of code.
33:45
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
33:46
Dr. Temple Grandin:
33:46
Well, that would get the kid interested.
33:48
That doesn't happen now.
33:50
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
33:51
Dr. Temple Grandin:
33:51
They just get, it's just off and there's now system error.
33:54
I remember when, when Microsoft crashed and all the airport screens were blue.
34:01
But it doesn't show code.
34:03
The older stuff, when it broke, it showed code.
34:06
Rupert Isaacson: It seems to me what you're really talking
34:07
about here is problem solving.
34:09
Dr. Temple Grandin:
34:09
Yep.
34:09
And then the other thing with some of the older stuff, they were making
34:12
hardware too, actually putting computers components together.
34:18
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
34:19
Dr. Temple Grandin:
34:19
It was much more, much more hands-on.
34:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
34:23
Building motherboards.
34:25
Dr. Temple Grandin:
34:25
Yeah.
34:25
And that's building things.
34:27
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
34:27
Yeah.
34:28
Dr. Temple Grandin:
34:28
And, and now it's just all online.
34:32
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
34:34
Okay.
34:35
So I'm listening to this.
34:36
I'm a therapeutic riding barn owner.
34:39
Let's say, okay, I've, I've heard you.
34:41
So I'm gonna reach out to my local retirement communities.
34:43
I'm gonna find who are the people there who know how to
34:48
have these practical skills.
34:50
I create a workshop, a shop where all this technical stuff is going on in the
34:57
therapeutic riding campus, if you like.
35:00
Dr. Temple Grandin:
35:00
Yeah.
35:00
At broadening it out, you know, and I think horses are very part of, but
35:04
the other thing I did for the horses is I spent hours getting ready for
35:08
junior show English acquisition.
35:11
I also showed in a small open, regular horse show, just
35:16
a little small local show.
35:19
And I would go in the trail class and we had to practice going up and opening a
35:23
mailbox and, but we showed in horse shows open to the public real horse shows.
35:30
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
35:31
Dr. Temple Grandin:
35:31
Myself and my roommate, and we went to the special school.
35:34
I think that was important.
35:35
We went to real horse shows.
35:36
Mm-hmm.
35:37
And we showed in them, and they were either a four H show or a very small
35:43
little local horse show, but it was still an open normal horse show.
35:48
There's
35:49
Rupert Isaacson: a, and then you
35:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
35:50
gotta learn, then you gotta learn all the behaviors you gotta do there.
35:54
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
35:54
Mm-hmm.
35:55
And have to deal with the long day.
35:56
Dr. Temple Grandin:
35:56
And that, that's, I had two parts of horses getting ready for show, going to
36:01
horse shows, and then taking care of 'em.
36:04
Mm-hmm.
36:06
I clean nine stalls every day.
36:09
I fed them.
36:09
I was very responsible.
36:10
When somebody says responsibility, I see this big wooden grain box and
36:15
that Purina lina it and you gotta shut that lid and turn the latch.
36:20
'cause if a horse gets into that, they can die.
36:22
Rupert Isaacson: When I
36:23
Dr. Temple Grandin:
36:23
think of responsibility, I make sure I put the lid down and I turn the latch.
36:28
Rupert Isaacson: Do you remember yourself?
36:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
36:30
I remember that very well and, and they trusted me that I would
36:33
always close that box and, and turn the latch after I fed the horses.
36:41
Rupert Isaacson: What's your memory, personally of when you came from
36:45
sort of non-verbal to verbal?
36:48
Do you have a sense in your memory of like fog clearing or something like that?
36:55
Dr. Temple Grandin:
36:55
No.
36:55
It was more like I could, if grownups talked fast, it went to gibber.
37:00
Hmm.
37:02
If grownups talked slowly, I could understand fact, I thought the
37:06
grownups had their own language.
37:07
I used to call it grownup talk.
37:09
And, and then as I started to get my words, and it came in a few
37:14
stressed words at a time, single words, I was slow to get it out.
37:20
And it was very frustrating.
37:21
I remember when I was five, and by this time I was verbal, I was in kindergarten
37:25
class and we had a little assignment where there were pictures of things
37:30
like a bicycle, a suitcase, a bird bath and other things, and a house.
37:38
And we had to mark all the pictures that began with B as in beautiful.
37:41
So I marked a suitcase for B for bag.
37:45
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, and
37:45
Dr. Temple Grandin:
37:45
the teacher marked it wrong, and I wasn't given time to explain that
37:50
we called suitcases bags, that I did understand the B concept.
37:55
I was five.
37:56
Mm-hmm.
37:56
And it, I, I just couldn't get it out fast enough.
37:59
That was very frustrating.
38:01
I could talk at this point, but it was like a slow computer.
38:05
It took me time to get it out.
38:09
Rupert Isaacson: When did that change and why did that change, do you think?
38:12
Dr. Temple Grandin:
38:12
Well, I think just as I developed, I got better,
38:16
Rupert Isaacson: but not everybody got better
38:17
Dr. Temple Grandin:
38:17
by that time.
38:18
By that time I could, well, I remember a time before I could talk
38:21
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
38:22
Dr. Temple Grandin:
38:22
Getting extremely frustrated, didn't wanna wear a hat, and we were in the driveway.
38:26
We were gonna drive to the little school that the, the teachers taught out in their
38:31
house where it got early intervention.
38:34
So I just thought, I'm gonna scream and throw it on the floor of the car.
38:37
Melissa said, pick it up.
38:38
So then I chucked it out the window on the drive our driveway to made me go get it.
38:45
And then I got the brilliant idea of throwing it out the
38:47
window when we were driving.
38:50
But back in the fifties, cars had crank windows and I wasn't
38:54
strong enough to turn the crank.
38:56
So mother had her window open.
38:58
So I leaned over her and I chucked the hat and that caused it to swerve and, and
39:03
we got sideswiped by a tractor trailer.
39:07
Very lucky we weren't killed.
39:10
But I can remember thinking to myself, I'm gonna scream now.
39:14
This is how I'm gonna say I don't wanna wear the hat.
39:18
I actually thought about that.
39:20
See now I may have been, you know, quite younger than five by five.
39:24
I could talk, but I was slow to get the words out.
39:28
I remember this assignment very clearly with the, when I marked the
39:32
suitcase B for bag and they didn't give me time to explain in our house.
39:41
Those were bags.
39:43
And that began with B.
39:47
Rupert Isaacson: You had then developed where you could compute language
39:52
faster and get it out well, yeah,
39:53
Dr. Temple Grandin:
39:53
I did.
39:54
I got a whole lot better and, but it came slowly.
39:57
I was not an oleic kid.
39:58
Right.
39:59
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely
39:59
Dr. Temple Grandin:
39:59
not the echoic type.
40:01
Rupert Isaacson: You were not echoic, okay.
40:02
Absolutely
40:02
Dr. Temple Grandin:
40:02
not.
40:03
Okay.
40:03
No.
40:03
My speech came in a few stressed words at a time, singing words.
40:09
When you say stressed
40:10
Rupert Isaacson: words, what do you mean by that exactly?
40:12
Well,
40:12
Dr. Temple Grandin:
40:12
I might go B football.
40:14
Rupert Isaacson: I see.
40:15
Dr. Temple Grandin:
40:15
And I didn't hear the the B and the L so my speech did a lot of slow enunciation.
40:23
Like she'd hold up a cup and she'd go cup, and then she'd go cup pa.
40:30
Really put, slowing it down and enunciating those hard constant sounds
40:36
because otherwise I to have, ugh.
40:40
You see, my problem was I've got some auditory processing problems
40:44
and I don't hear consonants, like if you said sat or rat.
40:51
I don't think I've ratted.
40:52
I, you know, rat on a chair.
40:54
I sat on a chair.
40:59
And,
41:02
and I still have to figure out some of those words by context.
41:05
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
41:06
Dr. Temple Grandin:
41:06
I don't think I'd have a pet bat, but I might have a pet cat.
41:12
I just deliberately emphasize.
41:14
Sounds there.
41:17
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
41:17
Dr. Temple Grandin:
41:17
do you, you think I definitely not echoic that.
41:20
Do
41:20
Rupert Isaacson: you think
41:20
Dr. Temple Grandin:
41:20
I had, well I had some auditory processing 'cause when the grownups
41:24
talked too fast, it went to GI British.
41:25
Mm-hmm.
41:25
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
41:28
If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering
41:31
a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
41:34
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
41:39
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41:45
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41:51
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41:54
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41:57
We work in the saddle with younger children.
42:01
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42:07
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42:08
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42:10
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42:12
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
42:16
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42:19
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42:21
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
42:26
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
42:29
when they're not with you.
42:31
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
42:35
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
42:37
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42:41
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
42:46
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
42:50
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
42:54
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
42:58
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
43:02
need, as well as Serving my clients.
43:05
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
43:10
absolutely gives you this.
43:11
And it's interesting 'cause you know, I'm in a position now where I'm having
43:14
to learn a third language later in life.
43:18
And it's exactly like, it's exactly the same.
43:21
So my German is actually quite good if I'm speaking one-to-one.
43:25
Some, you know, lots of grammatical mistakes.
43:27
But I can definitely converse.
43:29
You can communicate.
43:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
43:30
Yeah.
43:30
Rupert Isaacson: But as soon as German true German speakers are
43:34
just like, properly, properly.
43:37
Fast back and forth.
43:38
Yeah.
43:40
You know, I'm lost.
43:40
And I presume that with more and more exposure, it'll get less.
43:46
And it is indeed, oh, it'll
43:47
Dr. Temple Grandin:
43:47
get better.
43:47
That, that's sort of the way I, it, it does give one
43:50
Rupert Isaacson: such empathy for kids that are struggling with speech.
43:53
Do you think, here's a question.
43:56
All of those things that you did so very young in terms of this exposure to
44:01
nature, a lot of these tasks, a lot of the fact that life was quite physical,
44:09
if you had been growing up now and you had been looking at screens a lot, 'cause
44:19
that's just the culture and it's easier.
44:21
And as you say, you, you drive past these apartment buildings where you, you
44:25
don't know that there's kids in there because you don't see exactly that one.
44:28
Dr. Temple Grandin:
44:28
Right.
44:28
Right.
44:29
Rupert Isaacson: If you walk
44:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
44:30
away where I live,
44:31
Rupert Isaacson: let's, let's say that Temple Grandin is a little girl today with
44:36
the same issues, but now being exposed to a lot of screen time, what do you think
44:40
would be, what would've happened to you?
44:43
What would happen to you?
44:44
Dr. Temple Grandin:
44:44
I don't think I would've developed as well.
44:47
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
44:48
Dr. Temple Grandin:
44:48
No.
44:48
You know, you gotta get out and do things.
44:50
And then things I'm realizing how important things like the
44:53
parties, like when we'd had a party
44:56
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
44:56
Dr. Temple Grandin:
44:56
My parents had a party.
44:57
We, when I was like eight or nine years old, all the kids
44:59
in our neighborhood did this.
45:01
It was just a fifties thing.
45:03
But then when I found out Bill Gates did the same thing, and when the
45:07
guests came, you had to greet them at the door and say, good evening, Mr.
45:10
And Mrs.
45:10
Wood, you know, take your coat.
45:13
And we weren't allowed to use their first names.
45:15
Everything was really formal.
45:18
That taught interaction.
45:19
And the other thing is, a lot of autistic kids today, the mom does all the talking.
45:24
They'll come up to me at the book table and the mom will say, my
45:26
son wants to get the book signed.
45:29
Well, the kid needs to be asking to get the book signed.
45:32
The parents do too much for the kid.
45:35
I'm seeing way too many smart teenagers that have never
45:39
gone shopping by themselves.
45:42
These are things I was doing when I was eight, 10 years old by myself.
45:46
Just aren't doing enough stuff.
45:49
There's a big problem, even with normal students when they start to fail a class.
45:53
They don't ask for help soon enough.
45:56
A really serious problem
46:00
Rupert Isaacson: again.
46:00
Why do you think that is?
46:02
Dr. Temple Grandin:
46:02
Well, I think it goes back to these parties.
46:05
You learn how to talk to people and selling stuff for charity.
46:10
Rupert Isaacson: Are we living a much more isolated life?
46:12
Dr. Temple Grandin:
46:12
You've got to talk to the people.
46:14
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
46:15
But do you think that's not happening anymore, do you think?
46:18
No, it's not
46:19
Dr. Temple Grandin:
46:19
happening.
46:19
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
46:20
Dr. Temple Grandin:
46:20
It's not.
46:21
Why do you think
46:21
Rupert Isaacson: it's not happening?
46:22
Why is it not happening?
46:24
Dr. Temple Grandin:
46:24
Well, the mom just does it all for 'em.
46:26
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
46:26
Dr. Temple Grandin:
46:26
Okay.
46:27
Like if I go to the supermarket and there's a girl that's
46:29
selling Girl Scout cookies.
46:31
Mom is right there doing most of the talking.
46:36
The kids, kids should be walking up to the customers and asking them.
46:40
Rupert Isaacson: Now in this day and age, he's not doing
46:42
Dr. Temple Grandin:
46:42
that.
46:42
Rupert Isaacson: Things can be dangerous.
46:43
So mom might need to be there.
46:46
Dr. Temple Grandin:
46:46
Well, what Mrs.
46:47
Gate Safety.
46:47
So what's the, what's the middle line?
46:48
Mrs.
46:49
Gates did?
46:51
She'd drive bill around the neighborhood park in front of the house, and
46:56
Bill would've to go up to the door.
46:57
She's right there.
46:58
She can see it, but he had to go up to the door alone and sell.
47:02
It was mixed nuts is what he was selling.
47:04
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
47:06
I guess perhaps he had established
47:08
Dr. Temple Grandin:
47:08
that.
47:08
Rupert Isaacson: Could we, at therapeutic riding bonds, could
47:10
we, could we simulate these things?
47:12
Like for example, could we say, okay, today is cookie selling day at the barn?
47:19
Yeah,
47:19
Dr. Temple Grandin:
47:19
sure you could.
47:20
Rupert Isaacson: So that's a controlled environment where we can give support,
47:24
we can make sure the child is safe.
47:27
Well, that's right.
47:27
But we can also get 'em to expand their comfort zone a bit.
47:31
Dr. Temple Grandin:
47:31
But we get them.
47:32
But you know, my brother is not autistic.
47:35
He hated the parties.
47:35
Hated them.
47:37
But you know what he admitted, he admitted that it helped him to
47:40
become a senior bank vice president.
47:43
'cause he could talk to older men and his friends weren't able to do that.
47:48
Rupert Isaacson: That's interesting.
47:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
47:50
And so my non-autistic brother was helpful.
47:53
This party thing was something everybody did in the fifties in my neighborhood.
47:59
Yeah.
47:59
So then diplomacy, when it started.
48:01
Put your good clothes on, greet the guests, learn how to talk to 'em.
48:10
And I thought it was interesting that the way Bill Gates was brought
48:12
up was very similar and he had to do the party thing and selling stuff.
48:18
Rupert Isaacson: So, for example, again, let's say we're running
48:20
a therapeutic riding place.
48:21
Would it be a good idea for us to have the kids take turns being
48:26
greeters, let's say we have Yes.
48:28
Yes.
48:28
These families showing up?
48:29
Dr. Temple Grandin:
48:29
Yes.
48:29
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
48:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
48:30
Yes, yes.
48:32
That's, yes.
48:32
That would be kind of the same thing.
48:34
You could do that at therapeutic writing place.
48:36
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
48:37
Dr. Temple Grandin:
48:37
Because a, a lot of these kids, they're too scared to come
48:39
up and just talk to people.
48:41
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
48:43
Dr. Temple Grandin:
48:43
And there's a scene in the HBO movie where I go up to the editor
48:46
of the magazine and I get his card.
48:50
Well, selling stuff made it easy to go up and ask for the card.
48:56
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
48:57
How would you have dealt with rejection though?
48:59
That, and
48:59
Dr. Temple Grandin:
48:59
working for that magazine was very important for getting my career started.
49:03
Very important.
49:03
Rupert Isaacson: No doubt.
49:04
Let's say he'd given you a negative reaction, let's say.
49:07
He'd said, no, go away.
49:08
You are weird.
49:09
I don't wanna talk to you.
49:10
Would that have crushed you or would you have had the resilience to
49:15
Dr. Temple Grandin:
49:15
I think it would have resilience because sometimes he had some customer in the
49:18
neighborhood that told you to go away.
49:19
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
49:21
Dr. Temple Grandin:
49:21
Yeah.
49:21
You see, they didn't wanna buy the candy and we knew which houses were grouchy
49:29
and you still had to go up to 'em.
49:31
Rupert Isaacson: Because when we're dealing with people that have
49:33
overdeveloped, amygdalas, we're dealing with people with a lot of anxiety
49:36
Dr. Temple Grandin:
49:36
and they get scared easily.
49:37
Rupert Isaacson: Rejection is a thing, right?
49:39
It's a big thing.
49:40
Yeah.
49:40
So how do we dance around that?
49:43
Dr. Temple Grandin:
49:43
Well, the other customers didn't reject it.
49:46
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
49:46
Dr. Temple Grandin:
49:46
I remember a time writing an article one time and had a, and somebody wrote
49:50
a really nasty letter to the editor and I was really upset about that.
49:55
And I talked to several my people about it, and they said that you need
50:01
to, you know, it's just one letter.
50:03
Other people liked the article, but I, I was very upset about them.
50:10
Rupert Isaacson: What if we then, let's say we set this program up at a
50:14
therapeutic riding barn where their kids are greeting and the kids are selling.
50:18
Yeah.
50:18
Could we also then set up some situations in which they are rejected or refused in
50:25
a controlled situation where like, Mr.
50:28
And Mrs.
50:29
Grouch come in and we even make like joke out of it or something.
50:32
Dr. Temple Grandin:
50:32
People that kind of play Mr.
50:33
And Mrs.
50:34
Grouch.
50:34
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
50:35
Dr. Temple Grandin:
50:35
And, and they role play.
50:36
They cannot not have 'em do anything really mean or anything, but just
50:38
say, no, I don't wanna buy that today.
50:40
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
50:40
They just, something like that.
50:41
And to gradually build, I don't want cookies.
50:43
I got
50:43
Dr. Temple Grandin:
50:43
enough cookies, you know it, and then just walk off.
50:49
Rupert Isaacson: I could see that.
50:49
I'd
50:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
50:50
like to have a bunch of success first before that happens.
50:53
Rupert Isaacson: Right?
50:53
So yeah, build success, but then gradually have controlled other types of
50:59
Dr. Temple Grandin:
50:59
well, and then other things.
51:01
The other thing I think is important is, is I have a lot of grandparents
51:05
come up to me and they discover their autistic you know, later in life, they
51:11
all have decent careers, good jobs.
51:14
That's because at age 11, they had paper routes.
51:16
Now I know those no longer exist, but we gotta do paper route
51:19
substitutes walking the neighbor's dog, maybe a church volunteer job.
51:24
It's very important that the boss is somebody outside the family.
51:30
It's Mr.
51:31
Jones's dog,
51:34
not your own dog.
51:36
And you have to do it every morning at six o'clock in the morning and be on time
51:39
and take it out for a half an hour walk.
51:45
Rupert Isaacson: Again, this sounds like something we could set up at.
51:49
That's right.
51:50
Good therapeutic things.
51:51
Provided we have the manpower, which might go back to getting retirees and to help.
51:56
Dr. Temple Grandin:
51:56
Well, I think after, when I took a look at the, two weeks ago, I
51:59
took a look at our national budget.
52:01
I looked it up in the business magazines and I just had sort
52:05
of, we gotta tap into retirees.
52:07
They're half our national budget.
52:09
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
52:11
Dr. Temple Grandin:
52:11
We've got to tap into them and a lot of 'em would like to have the
52:16
opportunity to work with the kids so they could really make a difference.
52:20
I'm 77 years old, I'm still working.
52:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
52:25
Dr. Temple Grandin:
52:25
Some of these retirees are 55 or 60, you know, 20 years, 15 years younger than me.
52:30
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
52:33
I wonder what's the best way to go find them?
52:34
I mean, do you just, would one literally just sort of go
52:37
to retirement communities or,
52:39
Dr. Temple Grandin:
52:39
oh, you just have to go to, we have a senior center over here.
52:42
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
52:43
Dr. Temple Grandin:
52:43
Right.
52:43
A few, you know, less than a quarter of a mile from where I live.
52:49
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just writing this down because what I'm doing,
52:51
Dr. Temple Grandin:
52:51
you know, just tapping into the community.
52:53
Yeah.
52:54
And you would do it one person at a time.
52:56
Word of mouth.
52:58
And,
53:02
because the other thing that's a problem in, on the entire developed
53:05
world is funding's drying up.
53:08
Okay.
53:08
Okay.
53:09
I know about research funding in my field in the seventies, money fold, like water.
53:16
I've been in the industry 50 years now.
53:18
Then in the nineties they started shutting labs down.
53:23
Now it's a trend line like this.
53:25
As retirees take more and more of the money.
53:29
Other things went down like this,
53:34
you know, things like funding for the space program.
53:36
I, I gave a talk at the jet Propulsion Lab 10 years ago and I got their annual
53:42
report and I was not very happy what I saw happening to the budget, this is 10
53:47
years ago, it's going down and this is happening in all the developed countries
53:52
Rupert Isaacson: because the population is aging to
53:54
Dr. Temple Grandin:
53:54
happen and we need to tap into the resources we've got in the communities
53:56
and retirees is one of them.
53:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
53:59
Mm-hmm.
54:02
Yeah.
54:02
And it seems to me too, I mean, grow, I, I, growing up as a colonial
54:08
children child of colonial Africans in, in the uk, intergenerational
54:13
life was very much just the norm.
54:17
And I learned so much from older people when I was a kid.
54:22
A bunch of skills because also older people were often very physically
54:25
active and physically able.
54:27
So they would be the ones showing you how to use a tool or
54:31
Dr. Temple Grandin:
54:31
Oh, that's right.
54:31
Yeah.
54:32
They, they retired car mechanics carpenters, you know, like right
54:36
now I've got back problems.
54:37
I can't lift much anymore, but there's a lot of things you still can do.
54:45
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and I would imagine too
54:48
Dr. Temple Grandin:
54:48
that you use that to lift stuff.
54:51
Rupert Isaacson: There has to be an impact on the brain too if, if we don't
54:56
get this intergenerational contact right.
54:59
Because something
55:00
Dr. Temple Grandin:
55:00
that we need to be tapping into because of funding, like when
55:04
you look at funding for science.
55:06
Okay.
55:07
I had a chance to visit the vehicle assembly building where they put
55:10
together the original moon rocket.
55:12
I got a chance to go inside it.
55:15
And I remember standing outside of it and going, oh, this is the
55:21
greatest thing my generation did.
55:22
Then when I went inside it, I'm going, am I hallucinating right now?
55:27
Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing in there that I'm seeing scaffolding
55:30
inside here for multiple rockets?
55:32
Not one rocket, multiple rockets.
55:35
I was seeing scaffolding in there for multiple rockets.
55:38
I was not hallucinating, and I realized, I looked at that they had
55:42
an open bank vault for that project because you look at SpaceX's building,
55:48
it's a modified steel building.
55:50
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
55:52
Dr. Temple Grandin:
55:52
You know, he, he, one thing that SpaceX figured out how to do is, is
55:56
how to make that rocket reusable.
55:59
Make it land on its tail.
56:01
Rupert Isaacson: That saves
56:01
Dr. Temple Grandin:
56:01
half your cost right there, because you're not throwing that
56:03
rocket booster in the ocean.
56:04
Mm-hmm.
56:05
The other thing you learn is commercial available equipment works.
56:10
You don't have to have, you know, regular electronics will work.
56:15
You know.
56:16
I see.
56:16
And that's, but they, when I went in that building, I'm
56:20
going, they had big visions also.
56:22
When you went up on the roof of it, there were big eye beams sticking
56:25
outta the corners of the building.
56:28
And that's so you could build a higher one for even the bigger rocket
56:33
course.
56:33
That never happened.
56:34
Most people don't know that about the I beams.
56:38
No.
56:38
I went up on that flat roof and I put my hands right on 'em.
56:43
Big, I beam this sticking outta the corners of the roof.
56:46
Rupert Isaacson: I think you put your finger on something
56:47
there when you said electronics.
56:49
Again, here am I running a therapeutic riding thing?
56:52
Should I have some retirees coming in, running a sort of electronics shop
56:58
Dr. Temple Grandin:
56:58
where we're maybe fixing videos and stuff?
56:59
Yes.
56:59
That would be great.
57:00
And, and the other thing is fixing computers for people.
57:04
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
57:06
Dr. Temple Grandin:
57:06
And, you know, you, you know, we throw away so much electronics.
57:12
It's just disgusting.
57:14
Hmm.
57:16
Like, for example, monitor like I have now like when a monitor starts
57:20
to go out and it starts to flicker, it means the power supply's failing.
57:27
And I had a monitor that did that, and really nice monitor screen still worked.
57:33
I looked it up on YouTube.
57:34
I found out exactly what was wrong with that monitor.
57:37
It needed new power supply.
57:40
Now that's something I could have done myself.
57:42
I kept it for a whole year.
57:44
Then finally, I had my friend come in and help clean my house and
57:47
well, it ended up in the dumpster.
57:49
I hate to say, but I, I can tell you right now, let's say that monitor
57:54
had existed outta my aunt's ranch.
57:57
They were, they were really low on money.
58:00
Mm-hmm.
58:00
It would've
58:01
Rupert Isaacson: fixed.
58:03
Dr. Temple Grandin:
58:03
If I couldn't get the exact power supply, I have to just
58:05
make sure the output is the same.
58:08
I would've built an external power supply for it, put it in a plastic
58:10
box so I wouldn't get shocked.
58:12
I know how to solder.
58:14
We would've fixed that monitor.
58:18
Can
58:19
Rupert Isaacson: you go ahead?
58:19
Dr. Temple Grandin:
58:19
I felt, you know, this was probably about three years ago, and that
58:23
monitor went in the garbage.
58:25
I, I felt kind of guilty about that.
58:28
But I'm just, you know, just so busy travel and things like that.
58:33
But all that was wrong with it was they put a cheap power supply in it, and you
58:37
have to just put in a new power supply.
58:39
It would've worked.
58:40
No, I, I went online and went on the YouTube.
58:42
I found out exactly what was wrong with it,
58:46
but it would've required taking a thing apart.
58:47
It would've required some soldering, the stuff I actually know how to do.
58:52
Now, if I'd been in a situation where I wouldn't have a monitor otherwise,
58:57
yeah, it would've been fixed.
59:01
Rupert Isaacson: The problem solving sort of sequences that you're describing from
59:07
learning these early turn, taking games through very, very basic tasks, a daisy
59:13
chain to learning how to fix some basic things or at least participate in it to
59:26
go into sort of a higher cognitive process.
59:31
This sounds a lot to me, like BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor.
59:35
Can you, can you talk to us a little bit about that?
59:39
The, the neurotrophins within the brain that seem to rely upon a certain
59:48
amount of physical movement to.
59:51
Create these problem solving abilities.
59:54
Dr. Temple Grandin:
59:54
Well, you have to do it.
59:56
You know, and I, you know, my skills in the paper library transferred right
1:00:02
over to looking things up online.
1:00:07
I was very good.
1:00:07
I'd go to the card catalog and I'd find a bunch of books in, in my subject, and
1:00:12
then I very carefully go through maybe a six foot section, a shelf looking
1:00:17
at table of contents of the books.
1:00:19
And I'd find them.
1:00:20
People would say, well, how do you do that?
1:00:22
Well, I can go on online and start putting keywords in and I can do that.
1:00:26
And you gotta use different keywords.
1:00:28
I tell students, cattle's got different keywords, cows,
1:00:32
bulls, steers, heifers, cattle,
1:00:37
Rupert Isaacson: pine,
1:00:37
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:00:37
You gotta do a separate search with each one of those keywords.
1:00:43
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about your brain.
1:00:45
You've had people study your brain.
1:00:48
What differences did they find Huge.
1:00:51
And what insights did you get from that?
1:00:53
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:00:53
Huge visual thinking circuits.
1:00:56
Huge.
1:00:56
Huge visual thinking circuits, but smaller circuits for speak.
1:01:01
What I see
1:01:03
much smaller circuit for that.
1:01:05
And that would, would explain how speech came in slowly.
1:01:09
I was not one of these echoic kids.
1:01:12
I was yaking out an entire movie script, but doesn't know what it means.
1:01:15
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:01:16
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:01:16
I was definitely not one of those.
1:01:18
Rupert Isaacson: And these visual parts of the brain, it's
1:01:23
these, it's where are they?
1:01:25
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:01:25
Right here in the back, old, back third of the brains involved in vision.
1:01:29
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:01:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:01:30
Very big part of the brain.
1:01:32
And in looking at these PET scans that were showing that the visual cortex was
1:01:37
turned on, cerebellum was about black.
1:01:40
I mean, nothing was going on in cerebellum.
1:01:42
Maybe this explains why activities that stimulate the cerebellum, like horseback
1:01:47
riding, for example, are so beneficial.
1:01:49
Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm
1:01:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:01:50
And the OTs have learned from years ago, do lots of swinging,
1:01:54
lots of balancing activities that these things have a good effect,
1:02:01
you know, and that's been known for years.
1:02:03
Rupert Isaacson: And is your cerebellum still underactive?
1:02:05
Like do you have to do things for MyUM?
1:02:07
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:02:07
My cerebellum is 20% smaller than normal.
1:02:11
Okay.
1:02:12
That's definitely known.
1:02:14
And, and I had PET scans done, but I don't think they sliced, they were this way.
1:02:19
I don't think they sliced down far enough.
1:02:20
I gotta go dig those PET scans out.
1:02:22
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:02:23
But I
1:02:23
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:02:23
don't think they went down far enough to slide.
1:02:27
They didn't do the sagittal section.
1:02:29
They didn't do that.
1:02:30
And the ones that showed it were the sagittal, you know,
1:02:32
were like, cut this way.
1:02:35
Rupert Isaacson: So you're talking about rocking as had or not?
1:02:37
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:02:37
Well, the ones I had, I think only went down about this far and
1:02:40
that wouldn't hit the cerebellum.
1:02:42
So I wouldn't know.
1:02:44
Rupert Isaacson: Do you do things now consciously to work
1:02:47
your cell cerebellum out to do
1:02:51
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:02:51
Well, I've learned, I,
1:02:57
well, one thing I've learned to help back pain is I'm making myself
1:03:00
look at the ceiling of the airport when I walk through the airport.
1:03:03
And I was showing a lady yesterday in the supermarket and she was
1:03:06
complaining about her back hurting.
1:03:07
I said, when you walk through the supermarket, make sure you can
1:03:10
see the steel beams in the ceiling that forces you to stand up.
1:03:16
And you still have to see the floor.
1:03:18
But when I can see the steel beams and the supermarket's brand new
1:03:23
and it, but it's in Abu, like a factory building basically, that's
1:03:27
all open steel beams on the ceiling.
1:03:31
If I, if I way I used to walk, I, I couldn't see the, the, the steel beams.
1:03:37
Rupert Isaacson: How does that help you, Sarah?
1:03:38
Bottom
1:03:38
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:03:38
now, and I'm finding, I'm.
1:03:42
One.
1:03:43
I am, I'm not doing all that much right now,
1:03:48
Rupert Isaacson: but when you're looking, but things like
1:03:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:03:50
riding, you see when you hear where the kid go, the mom will say, he
1:03:53
did his first words on a horse.
1:03:55
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:03:57
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:03:57
Well that's cerebellum.
1:03:58
You're stimulating of vest stimulus system.
1:04:00
You're stimulating the rebell.
1:04:01
Okay.
1:04:02
OTs for years have known that was good and then you had the old Miller
1:04:06
Method from years ago and they'd have kind of contraptions that the
1:04:09
kids would climb on and balance.
1:04:11
But even something as simple as nail a two by four board to the floor and just
1:04:16
have 'em walk the type rope on a board nailed on the floor simple balancing
1:04:21
things like that can sometimes be helpful.
1:04:24
Rupert Isaacson: So as much balancing activity as you can possibly do.
1:04:27
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:04:27
Yeah.
1:04:27
Lots of balancing activity, you see.
1:04:29
And that stimulates the cerebellum and that seems to be good.
1:04:34
And my cerebellum is smaller than normal.
1:04:36
Rupert Isaacson: Now what?
1:04:37
When you are walking through that supermarket and you're looking at the
1:04:40
beams, is that helping your cerebellum?
1:04:43
Because that is that changing the balance back?
1:04:45
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:04:45
I can tell you right now, it's helping my back.
1:04:47
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:04:47
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:04:47
And I have to make myself do it because I tend to lean forward.
1:04:51
And then I realized that I'm, well, it's just like walking through
1:04:56
the jet bridge to go on a plane.
1:04:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:04:58
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:04:58
And now I, now I'm, now I'm now when I think about Jet Bridge, I'm seeing how
1:05:04
the lights are configured in the ceiling.
1:05:06
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:05:06
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:05:06
Until I started doing it, I realized I'd never even looked at the
1:05:08
ceiling of a jet bridge before.
1:05:10
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:05:11
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:05:11
And the same thing with ceiling at the airport.
1:05:13
I discover a Newark airport's got a pigeon in it can fly the
1:05:15
entire concourse full speed.
1:05:18
Rupert Isaacson: Do,
1:05:19
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:05:19
do you I wouldn't noticed that before.
1:05:21
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that when you are looking up now as a 77-year-old
1:05:24
woman and changing that perspective, changing, you're changing your balance.
1:05:28
Right.
1:05:28
You must still be, well stand up.
1:05:29
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:05:29
One of the things it does and I've got, I've got the ladies at the,
1:05:31
at the ticket counter doing it too, because then you gotta find every
1:05:34
stain ceiling tile in that airport.
1:05:39
It's making a difference.
1:05:40
And they said that when I walk up to the ticket counter that they can
1:05:44
see that I'm standing up better.
1:05:46
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:05:48
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:05:48
And it has helped my back.
1:05:49
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm surely that must also stimulate your
1:05:52
vestibular system a bit because you're changing your normal balance.
1:05:56
Right?
1:05:56
You balance well, the other thing I'll do balance.
1:05:58
I got
1:05:58
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:05:58
a big long hotel hallway.
1:06:01
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:06:01
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:06:01
Or a big, long, empty airport corridor.
1:06:03
I go now don't walk like an old lady.
1:06:06
And I will go fast down the terminal.
1:06:08
Now if it's crowded, obviously I don't do that.
1:06:10
And I'll do that in hotel corridor too.
1:06:12
Big long hotel corridor.
1:06:14
I obviously don't do it on uneven ground, but wears the, you know, the
1:06:18
smooth carpet, big long hotel corridor.
1:06:21
I'll go, don't walk like an old lady.
1:06:23
I'll make myself walk fast down it.
1:06:27
Rupert Isaacson: I'm
1:06:27
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:06:27
doing that now.
1:06:29
Rupert Isaacson: Have you had your amygdala looked at?
1:06:32
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:06:32
Yes, I have.
1:06:33
And the right amygdala is bigger than normal.
1:06:36
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:06:36
What do you attribute that to?
1:06:39
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:06:39
Well, that's just the way it was.
1:06:40
And I had horrible problems with anxiety.
1:06:43
And it started puberty when the hormones hit horrible, horrible anxiety that's now
1:06:48
controlled with antidepressant medication.
1:06:51
Another thing that helps controlling it is a burst of hard exercise.
1:06:55
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:06:57
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:06:57
And where I talk about my anxiety issues, I discuss that in my
1:07:00
old book Thinking and Pictures.
1:07:03
Mm.
1:07:03
Which I just did a new forward for this and,
1:07:08
and a burst of hard exercise.
1:07:10
I do 120 old lady pushups every night.
1:07:12
Only the front half comes up and then I'll do a hundred strokes
1:07:16
laying on the floor swimming.
1:07:18
And when I first started doing that, I couldn't get my legs off the ground.
1:07:23
I can now.
1:07:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:07:26
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:07:26
And I find that burst of hard exercise is also very helpful.
1:07:32
Rupert Isaacson: When you're, let's talk about anti-anxiety medications.
1:07:36
As we now know, we are dealing with a, a population that is largely medicated
1:07:45
rather than a population that is in which the minorities in the exceptions of, well,
1:07:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:07:50
one thing is you wanna use a low dose or I take one antidepressant,
1:07:55
low dose, starter dose, or less.
1:07:58
Okay.
1:07:58
Let's say you do, I'm taking one of the old tricyclics 'cause I
1:08:01
started before Prozac existed.
1:08:04
And if you're doing Prozac, it's starter dose or less.
1:08:08
The big mistake that gets made is it follow the label, it's too high, and
1:08:14
then you'll get agitation and insomnia.
1:08:17
It's starter dose or less.
1:08:20
And if you start to feel like you drank 50 cups of coffee, you cut the
1:08:24
dose, don't raise it, cut the dose.
1:08:26
That's all explained in here.
1:08:28
Even though it's old, it's still accurate.
1:08:32
Rupert Isaacson: So when you cut the dose
1:08:34
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:08:34
it just works.
1:08:35
I, I don't, I don't, you go down to like a quarter
1:08:37
Rupert Isaacson: pill or something.
1:08:38
Like what, how would you, how would you cut that dose?
1:08:42
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:08:42
You'd have, you know, one way you get liquid version or you have
1:08:44
to cut the pills, but usually the starter dose will work.
1:08:49
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:08:49
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:08:49
The starter dose size, because I've had parents go, oh, he
1:08:52
was great with a low dose.
1:08:55
We doubled it and it was awful.
1:08:58
And what they should have done is gone back to the low dose and that
1:09:05
most people, the starter dose works.
1:09:07
Rupert Isaacson: Now you and I both know that many parents or people who are
1:09:12
taking anti-anxiety medications are under a lot of pressure often to up the dose.
1:09:17
Not,
1:09:17
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:09:17
no.
1:09:18
There's a point where you don't.
1:09:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:09:20
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:09:20
I have been on the same dose for, since my early thirties.
1:09:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:09:25
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:09:25
Don't, you don't wanna get into an escalating dose.
1:09:30
No, I resisted that.
1:09:32
The other important thing is the exercise also very, very important.
1:09:40
Rupert Isaacson: Did you find yourself under pressure to up your dose?
1:09:45
And if so, how did you resist it?
1:09:46
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:09:46
I knew it would be trouble.
1:09:48
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:09:48
Why did you know it would be trouble?
1:09:51
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:09:51
Well, I, what gave you that
1:09:51
Rupert Isaacson: insight?
1:09:52
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:09:52
Well, you're gonna get poisoned for one thing possibly.
1:09:55
It, it, and the other thing I found is the nerves went in cycles.
1:10:00
And before I took the medication, I, my nerves were going, I have to
1:10:05
use English speed limits for cars.
1:10:07
But this was the analogy.
1:10:09
I was going 200 miles an hour, between 200 miles an hour and a hundred miles an hour.
1:10:16
When I went on the medication, I was going 55 miles an hour to a hundred.
1:10:20
It still cycled.
1:10:23
And I knew that the nerves went in cycles.
1:10:26
So I toughed out the cycle and then that dose still worked and I
1:10:31
knew it'd be in trouble if I kept taking higher and higher doses.
1:10:34
The other thing is you wanna, you wanna avoid the Valium, all the
1:10:37
benzo drugs, you wanna avoid those.
1:10:40
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about why?
1:10:42
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:10:42
Well, you can't get off of them and, and they have to keep upping the dose
1:10:49
Rupert Isaacson: because you build tolerance
1:10:49
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:10:49
antidepressants.
1:10:50
Now you can stay on the same dose.
1:10:52
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:10:54
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:10:54
And also you gotta do the exercise.
1:10:58
Rupert Isaacson: If you don't do the exercise,
1:11:00
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:11:00
that doesn't, you are gonna be
1:11:01
Rupert Isaacson: in trouble.
1:11:01
Okay.
1:11:02
You have to do that.
1:11:03
Talk to us about why, why, why is the exercise so important for, for the mental,
1:11:08
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:11:08
well, I've actually looked up some research and a burst of,
1:11:11
in a burst of heart exercise.
1:11:14
Just walking.
1:11:15
Okay.
1:11:16
I walk a lot in the airport that doesn't do it.
1:11:19
I've got to do the burst of hard exercise where I do those 120
1:11:23
pushups in like five minutes.
1:11:25
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:11:27
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:11:27
And then I swim.
1:11:28
The strokes without stomp whole thing takes just over five minutes.
1:11:32
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:11:33
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:11:33
But that burst of hard ex, there's now some research on this.
1:11:37
Of course, I looked up a lot of this stuff,
1:11:42
but the burst of hard exercise where you'd put the exercise machine on a hard
1:11:46
setting, but you have to work up to that.
1:11:49
I didn't do a hundred strokes swimming on the floor in the beginning.
1:11:53
And then I used to do sit, sit-ups, but then I was, that
1:11:56
started hurting my sciatic nerves.
1:11:57
So I had to stop that.
1:12:00
But I do a hundred sit-ups without stopping.
1:12:02
Rupert Isaacson: Now when you,
1:12:04
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:12:04
but it took a while to work up to that.
1:12:05
You don't do that
1:12:06
Rupert Isaacson: overnight.
1:12:07
You were, you were do.
1:12:11
You were doing some research into these hard, these short bursts of hard exercise.
1:12:16
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:12:16
I did some research on that.
1:12:17
Rupert Isaacson: What did the research say?
1:12:19
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:12:19
Said it worked.
1:12:20
Rupert Isaacson: Did they say why?
1:12:22
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:12:22
No.
1:12:22
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:12:24
Is it endorphins?
1:12:26
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:12:26
Well, it it, the burst of hard exercise.
1:12:28
I just, from my, worked better than quite a lot of walking.
1:12:33
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:12:34
So again, let's say we are equine therapy practitioner, but
1:12:38
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:12:38
on the other hand, you gotta work up to it slowly.
1:12:40
Okay.
1:12:41
I was doing all these sit up.
1:12:43
I didn't start off doing a hundred sit up.
1:12:46
It took me three months to work up to that.
1:12:48
Rupert Isaacson: But to get a bit out of breath.
1:12:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:12:50
Oh yeah.
1:12:51
Yeah.
1:12:51
You have to get a bit out of breath.
1:12:53
Rupert Isaacson: And how many times a day would one need to do this?
1:12:57
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:12:57
Just once.
1:12:58
Rupert Isaacson: Really,
1:12:59
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:12:59
I just do it once.
1:13:00
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
1:13:04
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
1:13:08
bit about the old master system.
1:13:11
of dressage training.
1:13:13
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:13:21
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:13:27
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:13:34
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:13:37
Intrigued?
1:13:38
Like to know more?
1:13:40
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:13:44
Check out the free introduction course.
1:13:46
Take it from there.
1:13:47
What if you're a, what if you're a child or an adolescent?
1:13:50
Do you not need more?
1:13:52
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:13:52
Maybe you do.
1:13:53
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:13:53
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:13:53
Mother used to say, go outside and run the energy out of you.
1:13:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:13:58
I mean it's all the common sense stuff, isn't it?
1:13:59
But it's, it's, it's the stuff one just sees less and less of.
1:14:03
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:14:03
Well, I think way too many drugs are given out to little kids.
1:14:05
Way too many drugs.
1:14:08
I was an adult when I started taking this.
1:14:11
I take one medication, you know, low dose of an antidepressant.
1:14:17
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think ideally we should wait till
1:14:19
someone's an adult before?
1:14:21
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:14:21
Well, I look the medications in general, well I, the way I look
1:14:23
at it is the younger the kid, the more cautious you need to be.
1:14:27
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:14:28
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:14:28
That would be kind of how I'd look at it.
1:14:29
But I'm horrified when I find out there's a 6-year-old on seven drugs, a
1:14:34
lot of 'em heavy duty antipsychotics.
1:14:36
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:14:37
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:14:37
And then when you talk to the parents, no thought went into it.
1:14:40
Every time there was a meltdown, throw another prescription at it.
1:14:44
Yeah.
1:14:45
And that's bad.
1:14:48
And the kid now is obese.
1:14:50
Some of those drugs are appetite stimulants.
1:14:53
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
1:14:53
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:14:53
actually they, things like Abilify and some of that stuff,
1:14:57
Zyprexa is real bad on that.
1:15:01
Rupert Isaacson: Let's say a kid is on those seven medications and it's
1:15:05
having a clear ill effect on that body.
1:15:09
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:15:09
Well, lemme go try to get rid of some of the medications.
1:15:11
Rupert Isaacson: How does one
1:15:13
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:15:13
scale back?
1:15:13
The first thing I wanna do is to try to figure out what, what,
1:15:16
when they first prescribed them, what were they trying to do?
1:15:19
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:15:19
See,
1:15:20
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:15:20
the other mistake that's made is you need to try one thing at a time.
1:15:25
You don't start a diet and a drug at the same time.
1:15:27
You don't start a new school and a drug at the same time, otherwise
1:15:31
you don't know what worked.
1:15:35
And then you, if you're gonna try medication, try one medication at a time.
1:15:38
See what it does.
1:15:42
Take notes on it.
1:15:46
Then some of the kids need to be gotten off of some of this stuff
1:15:48
because there are some kids, young teenagers, and they're horribly fat.
1:15:53
And the antipsychotic drugs are appetite stimulants.
1:15:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:15:57
That's
1:15:57
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:15:57
why they're getting so fat.
1:15:59
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:16:01
Yeah.
1:16:01
And then of course they're at risk from diabetes.
1:16:03
Well
1:16:03
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:16:03
that's the problem.
1:16:04
Yeah.
1:16:04
No, and that's super bad.
1:16:06
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:16:07
I have some kids that come out to me from an international school that are
1:16:11
medicated, and I realized that what they really needed to do above all was range.
1:16:20
These are boys.
1:16:21
So I stopped meeting them at our, at our barn, and I started saying
1:16:28
to the person, bringing them, meet me in the forest at this car park.
1:16:32
I'll be there with the horses at a certain time, and then
1:16:38
let's just go into the forest.
1:16:40
And the horses will be available.
1:16:42
So generally what, and I realized what happened, and these kids are
1:16:47
between seven and 10.
1:16:49
And if you let them, they would range over about 10 kilometers over about five miles.
1:16:55
Yeah.
1:16:55
Of mixed terrain.
1:16:57
And you could help them getting over, you'd need one person to
1:17:01
look after the horse and they would be climbing over logs of course.
1:17:06
Discovering all sorts of things in nature, but really working out
1:17:09
because our terrain's very hilly.
1:17:10
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:17:10
Oh yeah.
1:17:11
There's a lot of, there's a lot, you know, heavy work OTs
1:17:14
for years have talked about.
1:17:15
Right.
1:17:16
But we wouldn't have to tell 'em to do it.
1:17:17
Rupert Isaacson: They would just do it.
1:17:20
Yeah.
1:17:20
And.
1:17:22
Oftentimes the, the people bringing them would say, oh, don't let them, you know,
1:17:26
they're supposed to be like, no, no, no.
1:17:27
Let them.
1:17:28
And when we started really letting them, what was amazing was, as
1:17:32
you say, we started to see these immense behavioral changes.
1:17:36
And then when they were really tired at the end, we might find ourselves three,
1:17:40
three kilometers, you know, a mile and a half or more away from the barn.
1:17:43
Then the horses came into play because then they wanted to ride home.
1:17:48
And then of course all the vestibular stuff would happen on the horse,
1:17:52
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:17:52
but we realized
1:17:52
Rupert Isaacson: we got way more bang for the buck than if we just worked.
1:17:56
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:17:56
But that's, you know, getting 'em out, you know, because today aren't
1:17:59
getting out and doing enough stuff.
1:18:01
And you know, way too many drugs are given out, way too many.
1:18:06
And then on the A DHD drugs, when you try those, you'll know right away whether they
1:18:10
work or not would be obvious, but a drug should have an obvious, beneficial effect.
1:18:16
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:18:16
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:18:16
And.
1:18:17
My health was deteriorating.
1:18:19
So I went through my twenties worse and worse and worse.
1:18:23
Colitis attacks.
1:18:25
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:18:25
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:18:25
Absolutely horrible Colitis attacks.
1:18:28
Rupert Isaacson: Stress induced.
1:18:29
Do you think?
1:18:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:18:30
Oh, when I went on the medication, the colitis was almost cured.
1:18:34
Okay.
1:18:36
You know, almost.
1:18:37
Rupert Isaacson: And do you think the colitis was a, a buildup
1:18:40
of cortisol in your system?
1:18:41
Well,
1:18:41
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:18:41
I, all, all it was, was they, my fear system was ramped up.
1:18:45
Okay.
1:18:46
I got bigger amygdala.
1:18:47
Yeah.
1:18:47
My fear system was just turned on due to a physiological defect.
1:18:51
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:18:52
That
1:18:52
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:18:52
ramped up the fear response when there was nothing to be afraid of.
1:18:55
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:18:56
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:18:56
And way I like to look at what the antidepressant did.
1:19:00
It was like adjusting the idle screw on an old fashioned carburetor.
1:19:04
You'll know what that is.
1:19:05
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:19:06
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:19:06
And so the engine is not racing.
1:19:09
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
1:19:10
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:19:10
I know that's an old fashioned analogy, but I think it's a really good one.
1:19:16
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:19:17
It often seems that whether one is on the spectrum or not, the, the definition of
1:19:24
modern life is that we're going through life with one foot on our internal
1:19:28
accelerator and one foot on our brake.
1:19:30
And
1:19:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:19:30
yeah, that would be a good way of putting it.
1:19:32
And what the Met drug did, it was like turning the idle screw.
1:19:36
So instead of cycling way up here, I'm now cycling down here.
1:19:43
Rupert Isaacson: But you keep the dose very, very, very small.
1:19:46
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:19:46
The dose is starter dose, it's an old drugs dys start
1:19:49
Rupert Isaacson: dose or less old
1:19:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:19:50
drug.
1:19:51
And I take a starter dose.
1:19:53
I am, I've been on it for, since my early thirties.
1:19:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:20:00
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:20:00
Same dose.
1:20:02
Rupert Isaacson: And you haven't built up a resistance to it or
1:20:04
tolerance that makes it have to go up?
1:20:05
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:20:05
Well, because I don't, I resist the urge to take a higher dose and that you
1:20:10
can do this with the antidepressants.
1:20:12
Rupert Isaacson: How do you resist the urge?
1:20:15
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:20:15
I knew as a scientist I'd be in trouble.
1:20:18
Mm.
1:20:18
That I couldn't just be upping and upping and upping the
1:20:21
dose that that would be bad.
1:20:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:20:25
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:20:25
Took some willpower
1:20:26
Rupert Isaacson: and the, the But you weren't seeing a return of your symptoms
1:20:34
or a worsening of your symptoms?
1:20:36
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:20:36
Oh, no.
1:20:36
No.
1:20:36
Right.
1:20:37
No.
1:20:38
So what would've been the temptation to up the dose then?
1:20:40
Well, okay.
1:20:40
Went on the medication.
1:20:41
The intensity of the engine racing was always less.
1:20:46
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:20:47
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:20:47
Always.
1:20:48
And what I recommend, I really recommend, it's okay if it's
1:20:52
the old edition of this book.
1:20:54
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:20:55
Thinking of pictures for those who are listening pictures.
1:20:57
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:20:57
There's a chapter and they're called a believer in biochemistry, and
1:21:00
I'd recommend them reading that.
1:21:02
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:21:03
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:21:03
Even if it's an old edition, the, the, everything I'm telling you is still true.
1:21:08
And Prozac is in here because that was invented in 1988.
1:21:14
Rupert Isaacson: When you I know people
1:21:16
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:21:16
that have gone on a low dose of Prozac where it's worked really well.
1:21:19
Rupert Isaacson: When you say you had to resist temptation not to up
1:21:23
the dose, what was the temptation?
1:21:27
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:21:27
Well just get more and more nervous,
1:21:29
Rupert Isaacson: but, and,
1:21:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:21:30
but I knew in the past that my anxiety would go in cycles.
1:21:35
Rupert Isaacson: I see.
1:21:35
So when you were cycling up And I
1:21:36
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:21:36
knew that from, I knew from the past.
1:21:39
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:21:40
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:21:40
And that then the cycles would pass.
1:21:45
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:21:45
So even when, when you were at the lower level of cycling it, the temptation
1:21:50
came when you were cycling up?
1:21:52
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:21:52
That's right.
1:21:53
Rupert Isaacson: And that was when you had to talk to yourself a little bit?
1:21:56
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:21:56
Yeah.
1:21:56
And then I, to make sure I did the exercise.
1:21:59
Rupert Isaacson: So the exercise, when you're on the upcycle,
1:22:01
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:22:01
I do the exercise every day.
1:22:03
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:22:04
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:22:04
And I'll tell you right now, do I enjoy it?
1:22:05
No, I do not enjoy it.
1:22:07
Okay.
1:22:08
I figure it's something I have to do.
1:22:10
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:22:11
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:22:11
Every night.
1:22:12
If I'm in a hotel room, I put a towel down on the floor and I do it.
1:22:16
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:22:17
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:22:17
And I reason I'd rather do something like that because then
1:22:20
there's no excuse for not doing it.
1:22:23
Rupert Isaacson: It also just keeps, I can always
1:22:24
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:22:24
put a towel down on the floor in a hotel.
1:22:27
Rupert Isaacson: It's it's interesting, you know, my father
1:22:28
who's 91 this year just religiously does his exercise routine.
1:22:35
And well, he's 91, you know, and off to Zimbabwe this year by himself.
1:22:41
Even though, you know, he's not, he's not as strong as he was, obviously.
1:22:45
Well,
1:22:45
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:22:45
obviously, but he will say, tell me I'm 77.
1:22:48
Mm-hmm.
1:22:48
I'll be 78 this summer.
1:22:50
And they say, well, you're a lot more mobile than a lot of other people I
1:22:53
know that are in the early seventies.
1:22:55
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:22:56
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:22:56
Well, because I make myself exercise and then this new thing, you know,
1:23:00
connoisseur of the ceilings I call it.
1:23:03
And then when I'm outside, it's connoisseur of the tops of the lampposts.
1:23:07
Or, well, if I'm walking in this neighborhood here,
1:23:10
there's all two story homes.
1:23:13
I'll look at the bottom edge of the roof,
1:23:15
Rupert Isaacson: right?
1:23:18
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:23:18
And it's something I have to make myself do it.
1:23:21
And it's helped my back.
1:23:24
And I told a lady yesterday, I said, you need to really check out the tru and
1:23:28
steel trusses in our new supermarket.
1:23:31
That's in a factory.
1:23:31
It's in a factory building.
1:23:35
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
1:23:36
So I've been taking some notes.
1:23:37
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:23:37
Black, they painted all the ceiling dresses black, so they, you don't
1:23:41
see them as much, but, but you have to look up to see that.
1:23:45
And what you do is you look up and you can see the ceiling, but
1:23:48
you still have to see the floor.
1:23:50
But you see, I realize that I'd hunch over and that I wasn't ever seeing
1:23:54
the ceiling and have to another way, way doing a restaurant that had some
1:24:00
really interesting stuff on the ceiling.
1:24:02
And she says, oh, I never noticed all that wood stuff they had up on the ceiling.
1:24:06
That's really interesting.
1:24:08
She'd never seen it before.
1:24:11
Rupert Isaacson: It makes me feel another thing that might be a good
1:24:13
idea then as a equine practitioner might be to put some interesting stuff
1:24:18
hanging from the ceiling in the arena and in the other rooms that we use to
1:24:25
encourage different vestibular positions.
1:24:29
Right.
1:24:29
Well, yeah,
1:24:29
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:24:29
maybe it's doing something vestibular, but I found it did a lot for my back.
1:24:34
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:24:34
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:24:34
And just one day I realized all the ceilings that I'd walked
1:24:39
under, I'd never seen them.
1:24:42
Then when I started to look up, I go,
1:24:44
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, there might be a Michelangelo up there.
1:24:45
You just dunno.
1:24:47
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:24:47
Well, no, there's like pigeons up there and stuff like that.
1:24:52
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
1:24:53
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:24:53
but oh boy.
1:24:53
You can sure find a, a, a, a broken ceiling tile.
1:24:56
You'll find it.
1:24:58
Rupert Isaacson: So while you've been talking, I've been taking some notes
1:25:01
and it's really interesting, a structure has evolved, which let you know the
1:25:06
majority of people listening to this particular podcast are going to be
1:25:10
therapeutic writing practitioners.
1:25:12
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:25:12
Yes.
1:25:12
Rupert Isaacson: And so let me take you through, I've got six points on this.
1:25:16
Let me just read them back to you.
1:25:18
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:25:18
Okay.
1:25:19
Rupert Isaacson: And then you tell me if there's anything we should add.
1:25:23
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:25:23
Okay.
1:25:23
So
1:25:23
Rupert Isaacson: number one, get retirees into help.
1:25:27
So you have Yes.
1:25:28
Cross generational.
1:25:30
Yeah, that's right.
1:25:31
Being, yeah.
1:25:32
You know, and then get those retirees to teach those skills.
1:25:36
Often practical skills.
1:25:38
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:25:38
Yep.
1:25:39
Rupert Isaacson: Two, get kids greeting and selling.
1:25:42
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:25:42
Yeah.
1:25:42
The other thing is also want the retirees working with the three-year-olds.
1:25:46
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:25:47
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:25:47
A little nonverbal, three year olds early intervention.
1:25:49
I want retirees working on early intervention.
1:25:51
Rupert Isaacson: Specifically.
1:25:52
Why that population?
1:25:53
Why?
1:25:54
Why?
1:25:54
'cause they get
1:25:55
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:25:55
no services otherwise.
1:25:56
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay.
1:25:58
Okay.
1:25:58
They're on a
1:25:58
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:25:58
two year wait list.
1:26:00
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:26:01
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:26:01
Okay.
1:26:01
That's the reason why.
1:26:03
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:26:04
So get your retirees in partly to do shop and practical skills for your older kids.
1:26:10
Yeah.
1:26:10
But and partly to do stuff with the nonverbals.
1:26:13
'cause the nonverbals are on Wait, little
1:26:14
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:26:14
kids
1:26:15
Rupert Isaacson: got it.
1:26:15
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:26:15
That little kids where they're on wait lists, they're not getting any therapy.
1:26:20
We'll call it horse play
1:26:22
Rupert Isaacson: in Instagram.
1:26:23
Parent basically.
1:26:24
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:26:24
Yeah.
1:26:24
Rupert Isaacson: Okay then which
1:26:26
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:26:26
play library?
1:26:26
Play
1:26:27
Rupert Isaacson: two.
1:26:28
Get kids greeting and selling and Yes.
1:26:30
Set that up at your barn.
1:26:32
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:26:32
Yes'.
1:26:33
Be done in a controlled environment so the kids can be done that.
1:26:35
And that's be done very easily.
1:26:36
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:26:36
Okay.
1:26:37
Three.
1:26:38
Have a garden, have a shop, have a repair shop, and.
1:26:42
Get the kids involved in that, not just the horses and the horse care.
1:26:47
Yes.
1:26:47
What have we got here?
1:26:50
Read my terrible writing here.
1:26:52
Oh, yes.
1:26:53
For a job, a paper round or a dog walk again, because that's all paper rounds.
1:26:58
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:26:58
We don't have many.
1:26:59
Well,
1:26:59
Rupert Isaacson: but one could, one could re
1:27:02
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:27:02
Yeah.
1:27:02
Recreate those.
1:27:03
Well, they see, might call it paper route.
1:27:05
Paper route substitutes.
1:27:06
Correct.
1:27:07
Either dog walking, church, volunteer jobs.
1:27:10
They, because they, they've, the 11 year olds got to learn how to do a task on a
1:27:16
schedule where the boss is not family.
1:27:19
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:27:20
The boss is not, is not family.
1:27:21
So let's say you are the therapeutic riding owner, okay.
1:27:24
You could set up, you could, you could go to five or six neighbors and say, look,
1:27:28
we need the kids to learn how to do this.
1:27:30
We are going to have them deliver these things.
1:27:35
To you?
1:27:35
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:27:35
No, you could do that.
1:27:36
Yeah, you
1:27:37
Rupert Isaacson: could.
1:27:37
Or walk your dog or something or something, so
1:27:39
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:27:39
Oh, yeah.
1:27:39
Yeah.
1:27:39
But they need to be learning.
1:27:41
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:27:41
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:27:41
I've gotta substitute, I mean, all our paper routes now, the ones that are left
1:27:45
are all done by grownups in cars now.
1:27:47
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
1:27:48
So we, but we could, we could set that up and recreate that.
1:27:52
Yeah.
1:27:52
Which leads into the next one which is hard exercise because of course also if
1:27:59
you are having to pound the pavement a bit and if you are having to dog hard
1:28:03
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:28:03
exercise and what the OTs call heavy work.
1:28:07
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:28:07
Which
1:28:07
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:28:07
would be using the wheelbarrow to clean stalls.
1:28:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.
1:28:12
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:28:12
And then when you put the horse poop in there, the wheel a little bit heavier,
1:28:15
the thing pushing and you gotta take it somewhere, you gotta dump it.
1:28:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.
1:28:18
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:28:18
And that's heavy work.
1:28:20
OTs call that heavy work.
1:28:21
Rupert Isaacson: And perhaps you've got to navigate those wooden
1:28:24
planks that you don't fall into squishy bits on outside and doing
1:28:28
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:28:28
some things that are heavy work.
1:28:30
Okay.
1:28:30
Heavy work pay bales.
1:28:32
Some of the old, older individuals.
1:28:35
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:28:35
And again, our retirees could be helping with this.
1:28:38
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:28:38
Yeah.
1:28:38
They could be helping assist it,
1:28:40
Rupert Isaacson: which, which would, and
1:28:40
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:28:40
they don't have to do the lifting and the kids do the lifting,
1:28:43
Rupert Isaacson: but they can assist
1:28:44
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:28:44
in, I, right now in my way of my back is I cannot lift a bail
1:28:47
Rupert Isaacson: hay.
1:28:47
Right.
1:28:48
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:28:48
That's something I cannot do.
1:28:49
Rupert Isaacson: And then,
1:28:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:28:50
and I can't, I can't pick up an entire box of books.
1:28:52
I've got a thing that wanted me bring a box of books, but I can't
1:28:56
carry it in from the parking lot.
1:28:58
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:29:00
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:29:00
I can bring in like three or four books, but pick up a box of books that's, no.
1:29:05
I had to give up this heavy briefcase.
1:29:07
I was carrying around.
1:29:08
Well now I just leave it home and put my wallet out with a leather string
1:29:11
around my shoulder and we don't bring the briefcase in from the parking garage.
1:29:16
Okay.
1:29:17
It's hurting my back.
1:29:17
I had to stop doing that and now I, in the airport, I put it on
1:29:21
the other bag and it rolls now.
1:29:23
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:29:24
I should imagine though that even if it
1:29:26
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:29:26
doesn't have even coming off the plane, I try to have it roll.
1:29:29
I can't always do that, but sometimes, right.
1:29:32
Rupert Isaacson: Just carry on.
1:29:33
I should imagine though, for, for the younger kids that are needing
1:29:36
to learn how to lift and push a wheelbarrow and navigate well
1:29:39
the younger kids, you do this
1:29:40
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:29:40
stuff,
1:29:41
Rupert Isaacson: that's not gonna be a particularly heavy wheelbarrow.
1:29:43
Right.
1:29:43
So no, it gonna feel heavy to the kid, but it's not gonna be that heavy.
1:29:47
So,
1:29:47
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:29:47
no.
1:29:47
And, and, but you see, this is what the occupational therapists call heavy work.
1:29:51
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:29:52
Okay.
1:29:53
And then six if there are meds involved keep them on a starter dose or less.
1:30:00
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:30:00
Well the, first of all, the starter dose thing is for the antidepressants.
1:30:05
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:30:07
Okay.
1:30:07
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:30:07
Other drugs, you might have to have more than the starter dose, but for
1:30:10
antidepressants it's starter dose or less that for that particular
1:30:15
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:30:15
Drugs,
1:30:16
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:30:16
Prozac Zoloft.
1:30:18
Okay.
1:30:18
I'm using the old brand names.
1:30:20
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:30:20
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:30:20
Sertraline.
1:30:24
Ine, that's, that isn't a very good drug.
1:30:25
I, we used that one.
1:30:27
Rupert Isaacson: And, but for
1:30:29
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:30:29
antidepressants,
1:30:30
Rupert Isaacson: antidepressants, what?
1:30:33
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:30:33
And other drugs you may have to use the, the dose on the label, like
1:30:36
from some of the stimulants, but antidepressants, it start a dose or less.
1:30:41
But they, the thing I'm seeing it, you know, and I see this with a lot of
1:30:45
nonverbal kids they're like seven drugs.
1:30:49
And when you talk to the parents, no thought went into it.
1:30:52
Mm-hmm.
1:30:52
Mm-hmm.
1:30:54
And then you have some of these kids that got epilepsy, they're gonna
1:30:56
have to take medication for that.
1:30:58
Have to.
1:30:59
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:31:00
But again, one would expect that to be exceptional, not the norm.
1:31:05
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:31:05
Well, yeah, you wanna, basically, my principle is the younger
1:31:09
the child, the more cautious you wanna be about medication.
1:31:14
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:31:14
All right.
1:31:14
But
1:31:14
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:31:14
on the other hand, I can't be against totally against medication
1:31:17
because one little medication.
1:31:19
It changed my life.
1:31:20
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:31:20
And I, this is so, and that,
1:31:22
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:31:22
and this is where as I'd recommend reading this, I'd rather I, not that
1:31:26
I'm not just saying I wanna sell books, but I think it's important
1:31:30
that they read thinking of pictures,
1:31:32
Rupert Isaacson: right.
1:31:32
It, it just seems that there is so little moderation in the drugs.
1:31:38
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:31:38
Well, there's things where there's no thought went into it.
1:31:40
Like, you talk to the parents, I said, why'd you do this drug?
1:31:44
Or they might give out three drugs or two drugs at a time.
1:31:48
You try one thing at a time and see what it does.
1:31:52
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think pediatricians are
1:31:54
giving out so many drugs?
1:31:56
Because they must know the risks.
1:31:58
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:31:58
The, the parents call 'em and they just wish that they'd go away.
1:32:02
And yeah, it's kind of shocking sometimes.
1:32:05
The lack of thought that goes into it.
1:32:09
Mm-hmm.
1:32:09
He's on seven drugs.
1:32:11
Alright.
1:32:11
Why this one?
1:32:12
Why that one?
1:32:13
Yeah.
1:32:17
Okay.
1:32:17
Well, on the other hand, on the other hand you take your antipsychotics in some
1:32:22
cases where there is very, very severe sensory oversensitivity, a very tiny
1:32:28
dose of risperidol risperidol, very tiny dose, way, way under star dose works.
1:32:35
Now let's talk about sensory stuff, like, things that make
1:32:39
noise like a vacuum cleaner.
1:32:42
Mm-hmm.
1:32:42
If the child turns on the thing that makes noise, they can often get to tolerate it,
1:32:48
Rupert Isaacson: Because they have the agency and the choice where
1:32:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:32:50
they control it.
1:32:51
A thing that makes noise beeping a car horn, anything that makes
1:32:56
noise when you turn it on horse clippers, they turn it on,
1:33:02
Rupert Isaacson: the leaf blower.
1:33:04
Right.
1:33:04
Sleeve floor.
1:33:05
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:33:05
That's another example.
1:33:06
Yeah.
1:33:06
Yeah.
1:33:06
And I've seen that go from feared thing to favorite toy.
1:33:10
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:33:14
Okay.
1:33:14
Gonna add that to the list.
1:33:15
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:33:15
Yeah.
1:33:17
Rupert Isaacson: Turning on,
1:33:18
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:33:18
let them turn on the noisy things.
1:33:20
Rupert Isaacson: The noisy thing.
1:33:21
The other
1:33:21
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:33:21
thing is don't wear headphones all the time.
1:33:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:33:25
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:33:25
It'll make sound sensitivity worse.
1:33:26
Mm-hmm.
1:33:27
They can have 'em with them for control.
1:33:29
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:33:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:33:30
But try not to wear them.
1:33:31
You can have 'em with you, but try not to wear 'em.
1:33:35
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:33:35
So we've added seven.
1:33:38
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:33:38
Yeah.
1:33:39
Rupert Isaacson: For sensory stuff.
1:33:39
Let them have control and agency over the noisy, scary stuff.
1:33:43
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:33:43
Yeah.
1:33:43
Where they can turn that noise on and off.
1:33:45
Now obviously they can't turn a horse's Winnie on and off.
1:33:48
Rupert Isaacson: No.
1:33:49
But interestingly we went through that with Rowan, with my son.
1:33:52
Okay.
1:33:52
And you know, where we went through that is was in Mongolia.
1:33:55
So when, of course we were working with the horses at home, the horses
1:33:59
didn't Winnie much because there.
1:34:01
Herd was very close together.
1:34:03
They didn't Yeah.
1:34:03
They don't to call each other.
1:34:05
When we went to Mongolia, the horses wined all the time because they were calling
1:34:11
to each other across big distances, and it really freaked him out to begin with.
1:34:14
And I had to it took me a while to piece this together because
1:34:17
he wa he was semi verbal.
1:34:19
And then when I realized that was what was going on, I, I kept saying this
1:34:22
thing of horses, just horses saying hello, it's just horses saying hello.
1:34:26
After a while, it became fine.
1:34:28
But there was about a 10 day really awkward and difficult period which I had
1:34:36
not seen coming because our horses at home really didn't win any much, you know?
1:34:41
So what's your, but he did, he did absolutely learn to tolerate it.
1:34:46
Yeah.
1:34:46
And then it became not a thing again.
1:34:51
Is it just about small doses?
1:34:53
Doing things, letting things happen in small doses.
1:34:55
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:34:55
Well, and they, they but the one thing that is in a lot of
1:34:58
situations, if they can control it.
1:35:00
Mm-hmm.
1:35:01
Rupert Isaacson: See, another
1:35:01
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:35:01
thing to do is make an audio recording of money.
1:35:03
You can make
1:35:03
Rupert Isaacson: an audio recording.
1:35:04
Right.
1:35:05
And it has to be a high
1:35:05
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:35:05
quality audio recording with all the nasty, high frequencies.
1:35:09
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:35:10
Makes sense.
1:35:12
Okay.
1:35:12
And then the final thing we've got here is number eight is balancing stuff.
1:35:18
So in your playground, in your, just anything you can get that's
1:35:22
balancing for the vestibular system.
1:35:24
For the cerebellum.
1:35:25
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:35:25
Yeah.
1:35:26
Rupert Isaacson: Put that in there.
1:35:27
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:35:27
Yeah.
1:35:27
And you, and of course you're balancing, when you're on a horse, you're
1:35:29
Rupert Isaacson: balancing
1:35:31
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:35:31
mm-hmm.
1:35:31
Mm-hmm.
1:35:31
Absolutely.
1:35:31
You have rhythm and balancing stimulates the cerebellum
1:35:36
Rupert Isaacson: because one of the things I'm often urging equine
1:35:42
practitioners to do is think beyond the horse because the kid may, may
1:35:46
or may not wanna ride today, even if they wanted to ride on Tuesday and.
1:35:51
Even if they love the horse every time they come, what tools are you giving
1:35:55
to the family to take home that they can do in their living room or in a
1:35:59
playground or some other situation?
1:36:01
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:36:01
Well, things like getting, okay, you may not have a vacuum cleaner at the stable,
1:36:05
but then that, but then when they, some other noisy stuff, you let 'em turn
1:36:09
on and all the leaf blower, let's say.
1:36:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:36:12
Then
1:36:12
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:36:12
when they go back home, they can try that with the vacuum cleaner or the hair.
1:36:14
Absolutely.
1:36:15
Two other noisy things.
1:36:18
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things we encourage people to do, and we,
1:36:22
we had great success with this, was hang swings from your ceiling.
1:36:26
Let the kids swing in the room at home.
1:36:28
'cause the weather's often bad.
1:36:30
You may not be outside.
1:36:31
Yeah.
1:36:31
Now
1:36:31
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:36:31
a lot of, a lot of families actually have, have done that.
1:36:33
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:36:34
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:36:34
That's quite common.
1:36:36
Rupert Isaacson: Worked massively for us.
1:36:37
The
1:36:37
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:36:37
thing that that, that I thought was so interesting when I read Bill
1:36:40
Gates's book was the the selling stuff and the party hostess.
1:36:47
Rupert Isaacson: That
1:36:48
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:36:48
we both did the same things.
1:36:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:36:53
And I guess one could so easily do that with like holidays.
1:36:56
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:36:56
And then I had, I went in children's playgroup, organized playgroup in the
1:37:01
summer where they might have, you know, eight or nine kids and we'd, they have
1:37:08
an organized softball game or another time we went on a nature walk, you know?
1:37:13
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:37:15
I I'm just thinking like today's Easter Monday, right?
1:37:18
Easter Sunday, actually.
1:37:19
Yeah.
1:37:19
You know, one could so easily do themed parties at one's barn.
1:37:24
A lot of people do your Easter thing, your Halloween thing, your 4th of
1:37:27
July thing, your Christmas thing.
1:37:30
This is the kids can't be the greeters and Yeah.
1:37:33
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:37:33
Well you see, and I'm realizing how important those parties were
1:37:38
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
1:37:38
Where
1:37:38
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:37:38
you had to greet people.
1:37:39
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:37:40
You
1:37:40
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:37:40
had, we, we were taught Say please and thank you.
1:37:42
Like if it was in the store, you were checking out.
1:37:45
Mother would say, you forgot to say thank you.
1:37:49
She'd say, when we were getting ready to leave, you forgot to
1:37:52
say, and then I'd go, thank you.
1:37:55
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:37:55
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:37:55
But you see that's fifties upbringing and, and I think we need
1:37:59
to be doing more of that kind of
1:38:01
Rupert Isaacson: stuff.
1:38:01
I, I couldn't agree more.
1:38:02
And it's not
1:38:02
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:38:02
difficult stuff to do.
1:38:04
Rupert Isaacson: No, it's not.
1:38:05
But it has to be done without shame, so it doesn't become a fear thing.
1:38:08
I remember when Rowan was verbal, becoming really verbal, and of course,
1:38:13
you know, you go through that fa phase where you're like, oh my gosh,
1:38:16
there's, you know, I'll take anything even if it's grouchy and negative.
1:38:20
And then I realized at a certain point oh gosh, he needs to learn courtesy.
1:38:26
How do I do that?
1:38:27
And I came up with this thing where I said, Tim, hey do you
1:38:30
wanna learn a word of power?
1:38:32
It's actually three words.
1:38:33
If you say this pretty much.
1:38:35
No one will be able to say no to you over most things.
1:38:38
And he said, whoa, whoa, what's that?
1:38:39
And I said, it's this, it's, could you possibly?
1:38:43
And I said, look, I'll prove it to you.
1:38:45
And I turned to his teacher.
1:38:47
We were homeschooling, but we were doing it in a team.
1:38:49
So his main teacher, Jenny, and I said Jenny stand on your head and do a fart
1:38:53
because we always use toilet humor, right?
1:38:55
And Jenny went, no, I don't wanna do that.
1:38:57
And I said, okay, Jenny, please stand on your head and do a fart.
1:39:01
She said, no, Rupert, I, I've told you I don't wanna do that.
1:39:04
I said, I looked at Ron.
1:39:05
I said, now watch this.
1:39:06
I said, Jenny, could you possibly stand on your head and do a fart, please?
1:39:10
And she went, well, if you put it like that.
1:39:12
And of course, she went up against the wall and made a noise.
1:39:15
We did things like this for about two weeks and about.
1:39:19
Bang on two weeks.
1:39:20
He came downstairs one morning and said, dad, could you
1:39:23
possibly get me a glass of water?
1:39:25
And it stayed.
1:39:26
And he kind of learned this courtly way of going through the world.
1:39:30
He
1:39:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:39:30
learn it and you see in these things we were taught, we were
1:39:33
taught please, and thank you.
1:39:34
Mm-hmm.
1:39:35
And and, and, and then the party hostess thing, that's something that
1:39:39
in the fifties and see Bill Gates is eight years younger than me, so that
1:39:43
would've been very early sixties.
1:39:46
Mm.
1:39:47
These things were done.
1:39:48
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:39:50
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:39:50
And, and then there's that scene where I go up and I ask the editor for his card,
1:39:54
well, all that party hostess stuff I had to do, I wasn't afraid to go up and ask
1:39:59
for the card and ask for it really nicely.
1:40:01
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:40:02
Mm-hmm.
1:40:02
Like
1:40:03
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:40:03
I was taught to greet people at the parties.
1:40:05
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:40:06
Yes.
1:40:07
And if we could, and
1:40:07
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:40:07
realizing just how important that was
1:40:10
Rupert Isaacson: and if we could set up a sort of play, Mr.
1:40:13
And Mrs.
1:40:13
Grouch role play.
1:40:16
Maybe that's again, our retirees were helping us out.
1:40:18
Yeah.
1:40:19
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:40:19
After the, all the nice people and Right once in while Get a garage.
1:40:22
Well, yeah.
1:40:23
You'd go up to house and they weren't interested and they'd shut the door.
1:40:26
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
1:40:28
Sort of a safe way to
1:40:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:40:30
and develop.
1:40:31
And he walked around the neighborhood and then she'd take him to other
1:40:34
neighborhoods and she'd stop out in the street and he'd go up to the house.
1:40:38
She's right there.
1:40:39
She can see the door.
1:40:40
Yeah.
1:40:41
Yeah.
1:40:41
But he has to go up there.
1:40:43
Bill Gates had to go up there and ask the, you know, the people
1:40:47
wanted to buy the mixed nuts or not.
1:40:49
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:40:50
Yeah.
1:40:51
No.
1:40:51
And we can do so much of this stuff.
1:40:53
It up therapeutic riding barn because, and
1:40:55
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:40:55
it's simple stuff to do.
1:40:56
We, we can set
1:40:56
Rupert Isaacson: these situations up.
1:40:57
Yeah, we can.
1:40:58
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:40:58
Oh, and I think that would be really, really good.
1:41:01
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:41:03
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:41:03
I think that'd be really, really good.
1:41:05
Well, we've now been al we're coming up on two hours now.
1:41:08
Rupert Isaacson: We are.
1:41:10
Is there anything you'd like to add or do you feel we've covered it this time?
1:41:13
No, I think we've
1:41:13
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:41:13
talked about a lot of good things.
1:41:16
And, and these are things that helped me.
1:41:20
Mm.
1:41:20
And, and I, you know, you've got things that maybe some of your therapeutic
1:41:24
writing places can start doing some of these things, but I think it's been
1:41:27
really important to tap into the retirees
1:41:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:41:30
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:41:30
For the little kids.
1:41:32
And then teaching older kids skills.
1:41:35
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:41:35
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:41:35
I think a lot of retirees would really enjoy doing this.
1:41:39
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
1:41:40
I so agree.
1:41:41
And it's so interesting.
1:41:42
You know, we, we've, we've talked here about the good effects of the horse,
1:41:45
obviously the vestibular system.
1:41:47
What happens in the brain, what happens in the body, great.
1:41:50
But most of what we've talked about is actually not with the horse.
1:41:55
That there needs to be this whole other universe around what's going on.
1:41:59
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:41:59
Well you see the other thing, when I took care of the horses,
1:42:02
there's a responsibility.
1:42:03
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:42:04
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:42:04
I had to make sure I fed each horse the correct amount of feed.
1:42:07
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:42:08
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:42:08
And this horse got one scoop, this one got one and a half scoops.
1:42:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:42:12
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:42:12
And.
1:42:13
And I had to do that.
1:42:14
Right.
1:42:15
I had to put them in and out of the barn and clean the stalls.
1:42:21
Rupert Isaacson: At what age were you when you were given
1:42:23
that level of responsibility?
1:42:25
15.
1:42:25
15.
1:42:26
15?
1:42:26
Yeah.
1:42:26
Yeah.
1:42:27
I
1:42:27
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:42:27
was 15.
1:42:27
Rupert Isaacson: I wouldn't be doing that with my little ones at this
1:42:29
point, but what I do do is I was
1:42:31
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:42:31
15 right.
1:42:32
When I was doing that.
1:42:33
Yeah.
1:42:34
Now I watched some kids come up to our riding center and they
1:42:37
were maybe third and fourth grade and just pick up some horse poop.
1:42:40
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.
1:42:40
Totally
1:42:41
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:42:41
supervised and they were having a time.
1:42:43
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:42:44
I, I have totally
1:42:44
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:42:44
told them what the level of responsibility.
1:42:46
I know I was 15,
1:42:47
Rupert Isaacson: but there still is, even for the little ones, a
1:42:50
small level of responsibility.
1:42:52
Right.
1:42:52
One has to start young, but just within the range of what's reasonable.
1:42:57
Yeah.
1:42:58
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:42:58
Well, and then I made me a little nervous because they, the kids going Right.
1:43:01
Too close to the horse's feet.
1:43:02
I said, let's take the horse out of the pen when we do
1:43:04
Rupert Isaacson: this.
1:43:04
Yes.
1:43:05
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:43:05
I, I suggested that to them.
1:43:07
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:43:08
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:43:08
Let's just take the horse out.
1:43:10
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
1:43:10
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:43:10
And these were not stalls.
1:43:12
They were like run pens.
1:43:15
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
1:43:16
Which is what we have.
1:43:17
Yeah.
1:43:17
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:43:17
Yeah.
1:43:17
And I said, let's just remove the horse from the pen.
1:43:20
Absolutely.
1:43:20
Because these were little kids, they were like third grade
1:43:22
Rupert Isaacson: and then they'll get run over.
1:43:23
Absolutely.
1:43:24
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:43:24
8-year-old kids.
1:43:27
Rupert Isaacson: Cool.
1:43:28
Well, listen Temple as ever, it's been, you know, an honor and also just
1:43:34
massively useful to be mentored by you.
1:43:37
Dr. Temple Grandin:
1:43:37
Alright, that's fine.
1:43:38
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.
1:43:39
I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
1:43:43
If you like what we're doing here, please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.
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And if you're looking for a way to spend time until the next podcast, you might
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Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.
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Join us for the adventure.