Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / Episode #14: What If Someone Dies Unsaved? Part 2

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Episode #14: What If Someone Dies Unsaved? Part 2 · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, it is the Deep Grace Diving Podcast, episode number 14, believe it or not.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: What if someone dies unsaved, part two.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I am Tim Wright, along with...
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Terry Summers.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Terry Summers.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's good to have you, Terry.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: So last week,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: we were looking at a question from one of our listeners that is taking us on a
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: two-part tour,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: and then it will lead to at least two more parts as we try to come to terms with
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: hell and grace and all of those really important things.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: So read us the question again, if you would.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: I sure will.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's an awesome question.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was always taught that we must decide to accept Christ before we breathe our last
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: breath or we will end up in hell forever.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know we can find scriptures to support this view,
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: but are there also scriptures that support the view that Christ will continue to
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: pursue unbelievers after death?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I love this question because it really is at the heart of much of our understanding
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: of Christianity today.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: I sort of teased out last week as we were leaving the podcast that when Jesus came,
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: he came bringing a message that heaven has come to earth,
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: the kingdom of God,
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: the rule of God has come to earth.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus has begun the work of restoring the world,
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: through acts of grace that continues to this day,
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: culminating in his death and resurrection.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: What he didn't talk about a lot was that he came to save our souls from hell to go to heaven.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Some of that is a misinterpretation.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Some of that,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: as we said last week,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: and we'll see more in a couple of weeks,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: is about certain people in religious power trying to manipulate and hang on to power.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: You have a lot of power as a religious leader.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: When you say to your congregation, if you give more money,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: you'll spend less time in purgatory.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that was a lot more frightening back 500, 600 years ago than maybe it is today for some people.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: But that's a power play.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a grace play.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so because religious leaders can be human,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes they get caught up in the wrong kinds of things as well.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we're trying to, as I said, till this really hard soil, this soil that's been hardened by...
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: a certain belief about the Bible,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: till it up and see if there's another way to look at the Bible,
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: to look at God's grace.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so in the next couple of weeks, we'll talk more about, we'll end up in hell forever.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, I know we can find scriptures to support that view.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to suggest that maybe we can't find as many scriptures to support that view as we think.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: But today we're going to talk about what happens, specifically the question, what happens if
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Someone we love dies without having accepted Jesus as their Savior.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Does that mean that they're going to hell?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I know you were raised with this.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you were raised Baptist.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Southern Baptist initially and just Baptist in the broad sense.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And did you go to churches where they had the weekly altar call?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I grew up with that.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: and we've talked about this before,
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: if my salvation is based on my decision,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: then I keep going forward at those altar calls because I'm never quite sure,
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: did I really pray the prayer right?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Did I really mean it?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't seem I meant it much this week.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's never really this assurance that,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: and I,
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: I have talked to so many people over the years who went to churches like that and said,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I went up to the altar six or seven times in my life.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I never really knew.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's kind of an insurance plan, you know, just in case.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Just in case.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than living in certainty of God's grace, we live in the uncertainty of our decisions.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a challenge.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my dogs are barking again.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: They like to make an appearance every podcast.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things we talked about last week was this verse from 1 Timothy 2.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: This will help set the context, and then we'll look at some verses.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: I won't read the whole passage,
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: but it says,
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  SPEAKER_01: This is right and acceptable before God our Savior,
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: All right?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Who desires everyone...
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so the question we posed last week is, is there anything stronger than God's will or God's desire?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something that can keep God's desire from happening?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: I.e.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: my decision not to believe, for example.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is my free will, however we define that, stronger than God's grace in the end?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul goes on to say, there is one God.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's also one mediator between God and humankind.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself a ransom for all.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: For all.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to talk about that word all today.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And what does the Bible mean by all?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Does it mean all?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Does it mean all who believe?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: What does the Bible mean by all?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, in this verse, God desires everyone to be saved and who gave himself a ransom for all.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't say just for saved people, gave him life as a ransom for all.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: However,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: you can still argue that verse and say,
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus died for all people,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: but not all people believe in him.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, some will go to hell.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I understand that argument.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: So let's look at a few verses that maybe suggest to answer this writer's questions.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Are there scriptures that might possibly suggest that in the end,
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: somehow in some way,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it means,
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: God's grace is going to have the final word in the life of every single person God
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: ever created?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And for those who are right away, the alarm bells are going off because we talked about this last week.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: When the amygdala is faced with contradictory information, it starts going to fight or flight.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: For those of you who are already panicked because you're hearing in what I'm saying
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: the word universalism,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: let me assure you that,
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: that's what I'm saying.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not saying universalism.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying Christian universalism.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a difference.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Christian universalism is the belief that Jesus,
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: that all people will be saved through Jesus,
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: through his death and resurrection.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Universalism simply believes everybody will be saved because they're good or whatever.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Christian universalism says there's something unique about that Jesus moment on the
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: cross and that that's the moment when God was able to finally reconcile the whole
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: world to himself.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let me share a couple of verses and as you feel moved, you can chime in.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: So this is from Romans 15.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: It says, in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: For since death came through a human, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: For as all die,
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: in Adam so all will be made alive in Christ so it's important to understand what
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: it's saying here it's not giving a way out here it's saying everybody shares in the
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: death of Adam and everybody shares in the life of Christ
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is one of those verses where you can't say,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: all are made alive in Christ as long as they believe in him.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not giving us that.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can't say,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: everybody dies in Adam unless you don't believe in him,
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: and then you don't die in Adam.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that argument doesn't make any sense.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: So what Paul is saying here is that just as all die in Adam, everybody, so all
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: will be made alive in Christ.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is Romans 15?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Romans 15, yep, verses 20 through 22.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: So what does all mean there?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: All means all.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: All.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then again in Romans 5, let me read a few verses.
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  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin...
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so death spread to all because all have sinned.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think all of us would agree the word all there means all.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Not some have sinned.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Not a few have sinned.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
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  SPEAKER_01: All.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's verse 12 of chapter 5.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then you move down to verse 18.
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  SPEAKER_01: Therefore,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all,
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification in life for just a couple.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, all?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: All?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what it says, Terry?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: It says all.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: For justice through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners...
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to come to this in a minute.
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  SPEAKER_01: So through the one man's disobedience, the many will be made righteous.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so what's Paul doing here?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because some people look at this verse and they say, see, the many, the many will be saved.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Not all, the many.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: But you have to take it within the context of what he's writing here.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: He just said all have been condemned in Adam and all will be justified through Jesus.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then he says the same thing over again, but he uses the phrase the many.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: we have to interpret that in light of all because it wasn't just some people who
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: were condemned to death through Adam.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: All people were.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: So in this particular verse, even though he changes the word from all to many, he means the same thing.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: He's just trying to mix up his words a little bit to give it a little extra push to it.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: But we would never say, well, many people...
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: died under Adam, we'd say all people died under Adam.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Just as he said in verse 18.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so verses 18 and 19 are saying the same thing, even though he uses the word all or the word many.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: They are synonymous at this point.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And he makes that pretty clear.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: So there's another verse where it suggests,
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: anyway,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: that all,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: as an A-L-L,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: will eventually experience life through Jesus.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Another one.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: This one comes from Colossians chapter 1.
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  SPEAKER_01: For in Jesus, all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And through Jesus,
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things,
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: whether on earth or in heaven,
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: by making peace through the blood of his cross.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: So again, we have to let Paul interpret Paul
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: if all of the fullness of God dwells in Jesus and he says that all things are
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: reconciled to God through Jesus,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: then both alls have to mean the same thing.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: We don't say some of God dwelled in Jesus.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Some people will be reconciled.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: All of God dwelled in Jesus and therefore all people, all things, not just all people, all things
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: will be reconciled to God through the cross of Jesus.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: One more and then we'll take a little time to come up for some air because we are
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: deep grace diving after all.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: 2 Corinthians 5, 17 to 19.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Everything old is passed away.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Look, new things have come into being.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: All this is from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: and has given us the ministry of reconciliation.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: That is,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: in Christ,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: God was reconciling the world to himself,
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: not counting their trespasses against them,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: So this isn't just saying that God isn't counting trespasses against believers.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: It says, God in Christ was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think when you say the world, that kind of means all.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So there are some verses there that talk about all people together.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: being saved.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: So now there's nothing in here yet about, well, what if people die without believing in Jesus?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think it's important for us to hear that the Bible did not shy away from a
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: universal message of God's grace.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Most of us, you and I included, were raised with an exclusive view of God's grace.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: that only those who believe in Jesus will be saved.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: The gift is offered to everybody, but only those who believe will actually go to heaven.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: The Bible here says something a little broader than that and suggests that all
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: people will eventually hear the message of grace and experience the life that Jesus
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: has for them.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm tickled and taking it all in.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Tickled in that, tickled up my grandma used to say.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my mind's just reeling.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I wish people were seeing the video because I can actually see the gears going on
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: in your mind,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully a lot of our listeners are wrestling with that stuff too, because it is so...
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: contrary to what we've been taught.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it's right there.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And because I'm going to come up probably shy with literal examples of say,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: can we turn to like you're so able to do?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So what do we do then?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Wait a minute.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let me get my thought here.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do we do with, I won't say the things that are
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: misinterpreted because I can't speak for everyone but the things that we would
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: gather we the ones that have lived on this side of the fence or that side of the
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: fence that we would gather that would be about differentiating
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Salvation from what grace offers us right now,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: like the things that would indicate that there's something that we are to do that
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: really aren't necessarily saying that.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: But yet is still instructing us like like things that fall underneath the umbrella
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: of obedience and things that are suggested of the greater good.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: people the all you know what i mean but aren't salvation oriented do you get what
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: i'm saying like like um what are we responsible for if anything okay so a lot of
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: christianity that believes that those who believe in jesus go to heaven those who
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: don't believe in jesus will go to hell have sort of been laser focused on one task
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: and the task
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: of Christians is to make sure that everybody believes in Jesus.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that is go make disciples of all people.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I was just listening to a book the other day and there was a guy who's a Christian universalist.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, if we really believed that our friends and our neighbors were going to hell,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Most of us would be living in absolute panic.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: We'd be quitting our jobs.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: We'd be wetting our pants.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: My word's not his.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: To get out and make sure as many people as possible believe in Jesus, which is true in many ways.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, some people have done that.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And there are those who say,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: if we believe everybody's saved,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: what's the point of believing in Jesus at all?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: the point of believing in Jesus and the point of following Jesus is that Jesus came
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: to bring the kingdom of God.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And our call as Christians,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: because we don't have to worry about being saved anymore,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: that's been taken care of.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Our call as Christians is to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And to love our neighbors means that we are supporting them.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're being kind to them.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: We're caring for them.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we take a stand against anything and everything that robs people of their humanity,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: their dignity,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: and their freedom.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we should be fighting against poverty.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: We should be fighting against racism and anti-Semitism and hate.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And even if we're joining with people who aren't Christians...
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's not really the point.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: The point is that we're living out God's desire.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is that if there are non-Christians who are fighting for a better world,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: they are in line with God's will.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if there are Christian people who are not fighting for a better world,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: they're out of line with God's will.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: They're out of alignment.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so the call of Christians is to love God.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly we hope that in the process,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: as people see us living out the Christian life and bringing grace to the world in
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: tangible ways,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: that people say,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: why are you doing this?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: What's going on?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of evidence throughout history that for all the bad things people
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: often accuse Christians of doing,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: The world is a better place because of Christianity in many ways.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: The hospital movement, for example.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: The education movement, for example.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: These are all movements that came out of Christianity.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that came out of Christianity that we forget,
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Christianity and Judaism,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: is the understanding that all people are deserving of human dignity.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: That was a radical concept 2,000 years ago,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: except for the Jews,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: and then Jesus took it to the next level.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so now it's embedded into our constitution.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's embedded into our belief as Americans.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we think it's an American creation.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was a distinct Christian Jewish idea of human dignity and human value and human liberty.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a lot of what Christianity brings to the world.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the kingdom of God looks like.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: When people are brought into a new relationship,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: a healthy relationship with each other,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: with the world,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: and then ultimately with the creator.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: So when Paul talks about living out the Christian life,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: it's always about living out the story of Jesus in practical ways.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: How do we love people and do it in tangible ways?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Does that help get at your question?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it opens a window just in hearing you speak about a Christian and a non-Christian.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Where is the definition there?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because the definition from my rearing was decision-based on something I did that then qualified.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you're still speaking of Christian and non-Christian.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Could you flesh that out?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sure,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus and follows the teachings of Jesus and
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: believes that Jesus is Lord of heaven and earth.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And however we come to that belief,
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: and I say it's an act of grace,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: not my decision,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: but however we come to that belief,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so my agenda is shaped by Jesus or should be shaped by Jesus.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Where someone else might have an agenda shaped by something else.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's in line with God's will, we're all in.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And what we stand against,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Christian and non-Christian,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: is anything that's not in alignment with God's will for people to experience
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: dignity and life and freedom and so on.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: But we also need to remember Jesus came to give us life now.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've come that you might have life and have it to the full.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: He meant right now, a quality of life.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we want people to experience that.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: There is something about knowing that God walks with you through all of life,
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: that God's love sustains you,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: that a lot of people just don't experience.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have that.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we at least want them to hear about this God that loves them.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I that's like one of the first thresholds that I crossed over,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: when I met you and and heard so much speaking about grace that was contrary or I
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: won't say contrary,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: but in addition,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: like hidden from me.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: the idea to think about right now,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: because my rearing was all about salvation and the purse,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: go into all the world,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: preaching.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it was, it was a get out there now, come on team, get out there.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't mean disrespect,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: that was the cheerleading thing that we had to do and never was there really much
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: mention about,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: today, you know, for who I am today.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then like,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to ask you too,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: and you've kind of already answered it in,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: in fleshing some of this out,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: but about how is grace pertinent beyond
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: the deep question of whether we're saved, you know?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So how is it pertinent?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I were to say, and I haven't, but if I were to say, well, you know, I didn't,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: I did accept Jesus as my Lord and savior when I was sick,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was six and I went down and I did the things.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm in because of that.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Even if I don't know if I'm in, but if I didn't do it, but at least I'm in, I'm like double in.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: So why is grace important for me beyond that thing?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, again, grace isn't first and foremost about saving Terry to go to heaven.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus hardly talked about that at all.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: What Jesus talked about was,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: let's use some of that saving language,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: saving us so that we could help save the world.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus cares about the world right now,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: about the people who are depressed,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: the people who are hungry,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: the people who are sold into slavery,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: the people who just,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: they live in a political system,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: even here in the United States,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: where it doesn't matter what they do,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: they just can't get ahead in life.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus cares about people in other countries, by the way.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: He cares about people not being able to afford health care.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: These are all political issues, but these are human issues.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what grace is meant to propel us into, to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the danger comes of just focusing the Christian message on getting to heaven.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you focus the message on getting to heaven, it becomes a
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not good news message, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of a browbeating message.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: You either get saved or you're going to hell.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: The real gospel is that God loves people.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Did you know this?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know you might have heard or maybe you feel that God's abandoned you,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: but let me tell you something about God,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: about Jesus,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: that he loves you passionately.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: He really cares about you.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: You may not feel like, but he really cares about you.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to prove it to you.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to care for you.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the gospel story is about.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, we're going to get back to that.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get back.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: This was good stuff, though, because this is kind of the heart of it, right?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: What's the point of the gospel?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Let me give a couple other verses here.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Again,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Greg is asking,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: are there verses that say that there's an opportunity for repentance life after
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: death or salvation life after death?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: And while these verses have not said that specifically, they do say that God will save all people.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there must be something that happens at some point.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to come back to a verse that you mentioned last week and pair it with another.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: You said, you quoted Romans 10, 9.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: God raised him from the dead,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: you will be saved.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say that's the criteria for being saved.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: So Paul says this in Philippians.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, God highly exalted him.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: and gave him the name that is above every other name,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: that at the name of Jesus,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: every knee should bend in heaven on earth and under the earth,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: So what Paul is saying here is that at some point,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to bend the knee before Jesus,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: and we're all going to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: there are going to be some who try to qualify that confession,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: say,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: they're being forced to confess that and they're going to be sent to hell.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what Paul is saying here.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Paul is saying that someday every knee will bow,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of the glory of the Father.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: And there are verses in the Old Testament, by the way, that talk about everyone, the world being saved.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let me give you two others that are in there.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're really kind of weird things.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: things but they're at least worth considering this is from peter for christ also
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: suffered for sins once for all the righteous for the unrighteous in order to bring
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: you to god he was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: he also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison now this is what he's
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: saying is he's dead yeah
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then he went while he was dead and spoke to the spirits in prison,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: which we would assume he means dead people,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: who in former times did not obey.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: When God waited patiently in the days of Noah during the building of the ark,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: in which a few,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: that is,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: eight lives were saved through water.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't build a whole theology on that verse,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: but it is intriguing that Jesus,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: according to Peter here,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: descended to the place of the dead,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: or let's call it hell,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: although the Bible doesn't,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: and preached the gospel to those dead people who hadn't up to that point obeyed God.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And here's another one from 1 Peter 4.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: For this reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: so that though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: they might live in the Spirit as God does.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a strange one.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Probably don't hear a lot of sermons about that because I don't think any of us
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: really quite understand,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: but let's take it for what it says.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: For this reason, the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, huh.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, we talked last week about how we're all dead in trespasses and sin anyway.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it also speaks to us who are living, who are dead in our sins.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: so a couple more quotes, God forbid, this is from Martin Luther.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life in
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: the depth of the divine mercy.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: There may be opportunity to win it in the future.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: a couple more verses or a verse and then something from our good friend Maltman,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: who I quoted Juergen Maltman,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I quoted last week.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: For I am convinced,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Romans 8,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: that neither death nor life,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: neither angels nor rulers,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: nor things present nor things to come,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: nor powers nor height nor depth,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing, nothing, nothing means nothing.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing means nothing.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then here's Maltman.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: We quoted him last week, theologian.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Does God's love preserve our free will?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or does it free our enslaved will, which has become unfree through the power of prayer?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: We quoted this last week.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Does God free men and women?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or does he seek men and women who have become lost?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And is God constrained by time and space in seeking out lost people?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's at least enough hints in the New Testament to suggest that it's
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: at least a possibility.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: um and it all comes down to what you want to believe about what you believe about
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: god as seen let's say in the death and resurrection of jesus if god will go to the
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: death for us do you think god is going to let anything stop god from ultimately
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: drawing us to himself that is really powerful those those scriptures that you
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: quoted or will you put those in any of your um
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: written communications or is there or just heads up buttercup write them down from
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: this podcast no i i will uh because i thank you for mentioning this i do uh do
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: writing once a week on substack and people can join tim right or reckless
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: grace.substack.com reckless grace.substack.com and they can sign up for free they
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: get a free writing every week and then this podcast
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm going to follow up some of these podcasts now with some of this stuff as time goes on.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it will be there because it's one thing to listen to it.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's another thing to have it written down.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we will, I will get this stuff.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to get some of this stuff on podcasts first and then go a little deeper in the writing.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if people haven't subscribed, recklessgrace.substack.com and you can get all this stuff for free.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Terry, our heads are bursting once again.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: We need to let our amygdalas rest a bit.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to do, I think next time around, we'll probably start moseying our way to hell.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: All right?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: So put on your asbestos underwear.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to get hot in the nether regions.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to get hot in the nether regions.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Tim.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to take health seriously.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: As seriously as it needs to be.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you, Terry.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you everyone for listening.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, please subscribe.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Please tell your friends, share this with your friends.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: If it's helpful for you, we'll be back with you next time.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: A little Morse code to take you out and remind you that you are graced.