Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 062: Seattle. Steven Rinella talks with Brad Brooks of Argali Outdoors, along with Ryan Callaghan of First Lite, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater crew.

Transcript

Ep. 062: Seattle. Steven Rinella talks with Brad Brooks of Argali Outdoors, along with Ryan Callaghan of First Lite, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater crew. · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening Hunt Don't
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Eat podcast. You can't predict anything presented by first light.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Go farther, stay longer. You know, we haven't talked about forever.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Your honest, you do. This is even a This is
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: not a ad. This is just like you do a
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: pitch for the guide books. I feel like you're like,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: we haven't talked about the guide books and so long.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of peopleho don't realize that we have
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: a seven hundred page volume one, Volume two, Complete Guide
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: to Hunting, butcher and Cooking wild Game. Everybody's asking for him. Yeah,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: well we should pitch him. Pretend like you're gonna add
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: And that's like we've been put on the spot here
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: trying to wing a ad for it. Um new to hunting,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: veteran hunter somewhere in between. Guaranteed you'll find something too
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: interesting to read in both volumes. Yeah, it's seven pages long. Now,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: there's no way you know, there's no like, I don't
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: care if you went and asked, uh, yeah, you go
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: asked Daniel Boone. He's got no not gonna know all
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: the ship there because they didn't have tag draws back
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: in Daniel Boone's day, and it explains that stuff. I
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: don't want to act like you or I also know
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: everything that was putting that book. Now. I forgot a
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: lot of what I wrote in that book, right, But
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: we also had a lot of other veteran hunters that
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: are more experienced in um uh certain subsets of hunting
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: that helped us out and wrote you know, short pieces,
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: some of them longer than others to you know the uh,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: just so we could get a little more death in
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: places where we might not have had that from all
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: around the country, way in on various subjects. We even
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: call it that so and so weighs in on various subjects.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: But when we we when we finished the manuscript, it
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: took years to do the books. We finished it. I
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: brought it to my publishers. She's like, books, aren't this
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: You can't do a book this big. You can have
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: a seven d page book. That's when we broke it
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: into volume one and volume two. Volume one is big game,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Volume two small game, everything from squirrels on up to cranes.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: And then you know, Volume one covers all North America's
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: big game animals, and it's got a bunch of cooking stuff,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: sausage making. I'm in the Big Gass book. Do you
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: know those books you're I think you're cal you're in
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: the books. Did you write the books? Uh? Yeah, I
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: was asked to. I'm not sure exactly what you guys use. No, no, no,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: you're in it. Uh in your pictures in it A
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: bunch of times. You guys should know though, every time
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I recommend those did you know? I deal with a
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: lot of a lot of beginners, for sure, And and
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: every time I recommend those, folks don't know they're out there,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: which is amazing, And they always follow up rate like,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: thank you so much, this and this is so helpful.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Now that's an ad. Y'all need to take something peimonial.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: You can see our guests here who I haven't introduced yet,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Brad Brooks from the World Society. You read them. You
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: actually bought one a bottle from my brother. Yeah, I
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: thought he could learn how to hunt better. Did you
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: look at yourself? Of course? What was your first impression?
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Was it like holy ship? There was a lot of
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: I guess it's dance. It's a dance. Book, but it
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: was good, hopefully illustrated. Actually, you know what, there's a
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: section on glassing. I thought it was really useful for
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: most folks, like how to pick a part of landscape.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: You know, most folks don't know how to glass. Probably
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: they don't so um and most people don't recognize that
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: it's a thing you need to learn. Yeah, you don't
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: just like go out and like throw up your knoculars
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: and start seeing like big stuff, you know right away. Yeah,
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: so you're not like, oh, I need to learn Like,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: no one's ever like I need to learn how to
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: find animals with my binoculars. You just think like I'll
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: just start doing it, I'll just see them. Yeah, but
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: it's like a thing you gotta It's like if it's
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: like if you're gonna start, like if I want to
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: start making my own socks, right, I have to go
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: and look that ship up on YouTube. It's like, you
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: should approach glassing like a thing you're gonna learn totally
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: like acquires tricks. And you know, so did you buy
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: this book for the brother that kills bigger stuff than yeah?
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: That one? Yeah, well that's weird. You want him to
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: get even just bigger stuff than you. You know, I
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: figured he's, uh, he might stumble across a big animal
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: every once in a while, but it doesn't necessarily make
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: him a better hunter. So I figured, you know, if
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: we're gonna keep hunting together, you need to learn a
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: few things. And like, he doesn't want to listen to
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: me all the time, so I figure, give him a
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: book I haven't read it, and then you know, then
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: he can decide if he wants to acquire that information
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: or internalize it. But yeah, you just tell him be
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: like I ghost wrote this book. These people to say
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: they wrote this book, did not write this book, called
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: me out right now. This is my brother, Kurtis Miller brother.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: He has shot bigger stuff than me. Not, I'm gonna
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: claim right now, not because he's a better hunter, but
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: because he has more discipline and waiting for passing up animals.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: It's just not a skill that I really have cared
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: to acquire. So if that falls under being a better hunter, no,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: absolutely displine the discipline to wait, so you have to
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: want to wait? Number one? Right, Well, I mean that's
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: what makes a good makes a good hunter, makes a
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: good hunter is passing up animals. Oh yeah, I thought
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: you just meant, like guys in just the patients, just
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: to wait in Hunt the whole day. You got nine
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: days Hunt. You're like the bowl, I'm gonna shoot that ball,
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: and your buddy's like, not me, man, I'm waiting for
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: a giant And then he risks, you know, empty freezer syndrome.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I misunderstood, Um, Cal, what we're gonna get to Brad Bradbert.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: He's gonna we'll get to him. We're gonna cover him thorough.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: But Cal, what's your story lately? Oh? As I have
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: the unusual job title. I do have this extremely unusual
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: up title, the director of Conservation and Public Relations at
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: First Light. So it's so like, uh, is there a
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: lot Are there a lot of apparel companies that have
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: that role? I do not think so. I certain certainly
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: haven't run into any money. As far as I know,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: that's a very unique title. I think there are a
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: lot of people doing what I do, but not with
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: the name. Yeah. Well, and you're like, let's say you,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: I know you work more on this. Let's let's just
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: say it. It It doesn't matter how many hours a week
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: you work, like what percentage your time is spent in
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: those issues? Oh? Man at this point. You know, we're
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: so face forward on um a lot of conservation issues,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: but you know, mainly the public lands uh situation that's
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: going on right now that it it's a huge part
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: of my job, UM, because it also falls into pr
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: when I'm talking to lots of different writers and uh,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: and into our marketing side of things, because we use
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: it throughout our digital marketing and and we're pushing the message.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: You know. I think that's one of the biggest values
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: we uh we have for these conservation groups out there,
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: is we can use our platform to make sure people
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: are at least aware of these issues. So what I'm
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: getting at though, is in your work week, are you
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: only for like you're you're paid by first Light and
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: the most of your work is directed towards conservation issues
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: uh certain times of the year yea, yeah, so stuff
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: comes up, yep, stuff comes up. UM, you know it.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: There's very few people out there doing what we do,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: so it is uh, you know, it's valuable for um,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: you know, writers that have written about the same stuff
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: over and over again to look at things from a
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: different angle because you know, really in the hunting community,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: it's always been very taboo to take a stance on anything. Yeah,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: because you're always you're afraid you're gonna piss someone off. Yeah,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: and it's everybody uses like the you know, it's a
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: small pie. I can't I can't afford to cut anybody
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: else there, you know, offend anybody or pushing anybody out
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: of it because the industry is not that big. But
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: it's just really not the case. And and like you've
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: said in the past, man, you gotta if you don't
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: stand for anything, what do you stand for? Right? I
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: think you think of a country a country and western musician.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: You gotta stand for something. You'll fall for anything. Who
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: is this good one? The top ten country song? At
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: one point in time when I was washing that, I
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: was washing dishes at Steiner's Point twin Lake, Michigan, and
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: it was a song on the radio. Yeah. I used
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: to wash dishes on sometimes on weekends. Yeah. I was
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: in the dish pit quite a bit myself. It gets
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: so greasy. The lower part of your T shirt just
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: gets ruined washing dishes in a bar. Man, I was
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: in the bar and grilled part of the bar or
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: like the was like a kid. It's like the kind
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: of place where people go on a Friday night to
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: get primary of yeah, like that kind of place with
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: a big boiled potato rats and or like a bake
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: potato rats and uh looming hum foil. Yeah, that kind
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: of jointed. Yeah, that was my first job outside of
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: working for my dad. Um. There was a place called
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: me Rancheto and they did not have like a like
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: a hole bart with drop down to where they just
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: runs like a minute cycle. It was three bins just
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: washers today. They don't even know what a three bin
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: sink is. I don't think just washers today. Let me
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: take about diswashers today. Yeah, three bands. So that that
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: was my whole deal. Like super greasy from like the
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: neck up, but just kind of soaked from the neck
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: down in an inexplicably dirty feeling. By the time my
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: first job was running the whole bart when I was thirteen,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I was it wasn't even llegal for me to have
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: a job. And I remember I was thirteen because my
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: brother Danny, he was two years older me, wasn't even
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: able to drive yet, and we would both ride on
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: his Honda moped on a spree to go to camp
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: a summer camp my my area. Wid grew up was
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: full of summer camps. It was like very like rural
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: and cabiney back then. And one of the summer camps
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: is Camp Penned Luan And we'd go down there on
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: his moped and we had to be there at six
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: and do breakfast, would do breakfast, lunch, just washing dishes
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: with a machine. And we're younger than the damn campers
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: because band camps to come in. The kids were older
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: and we were. We didn't mix kool aid in the
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: garbage can and stir it with a canoe paddle. That
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: was one of our responsibilities at pendaluan Um oh man,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: do that ship anymore? Man? But man, oh man, A
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: little bit of like actual work goes a long way.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: And humility, man, big time teaches you humans. A janitor
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: was my first shot. I didn't wash dishes good. I
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: was like in a water park. I used to get
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: paid for hours to scrub gum, scrape gum off the sidewalk.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: You're out there with like some chemical like scraping gum,
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: like yeah, you know what it was like stepped on
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: and like you know, worked into the Really think when
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: you see someone spit their gum out on a sidewalk problem.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: I don't do it. Yeah, I won't do it still
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: to this day, still just eat it rather than spit
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: it out. Absolutely incentive type of janitorial position, like per
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: piece of gum you can find. No, it was, it
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: was out of the perk. The biggest perk of the
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: job was there. It was like a pizza hut in
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: the joint in this water park and uh in Idaho.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: So you know, it's a top quality water park just
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: outside of Boise and uh, you got to uh at
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, they were gonna throw the
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: pizza away and so they would give it out to
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: all of those employees. So so you ended the day
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: with a little pizza. Yeah. That lasted like a week.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: After a week of eating like pizza hut pizza Like,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: I won't. I can't eat that ship again either. It's
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: like I'm over it. You can't do it. I can't
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: stomach it. I imagine not so, I imagine burns you.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: The most interesting job I had as a youngster was
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: peeling logs for log homes. So you had to draw
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: a knife. Oh yeah, that's cool. Yeah, because here's the thing.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: They still do it like that. Yeah, and even when
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: like if it depends what if you cut when they
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: cut the trees. If you cut the trees in the fall, right,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: and the trees freeze in the winter, when the spring
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: thaw comes, the bark falls off. But by then that
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: tree is hard, so there's no bark on it and
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: the outside is hard. But you still had to draw
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: knife the whole damn tree because they want that look. Yeah,
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: the hand peeled look. So you'd think like, oh, it'll
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: be easier now because there's no bark on it. It
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: took you, it was it paid thirty five cents of foot,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: so you get a tree me like forty two ft
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: long cents of foot to strip the bark off with
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: a draw a knife. And if when you were peeling,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: if you're peeling in the spring and it was like
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: old trees that the bar could come off, it was
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: way less money. And it was really hard to get
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: your stroke. It's hard to get your cut to look
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: nice and smooth. Your cut would have this kind of
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: jay get torn look. And then Ed Thompson, who I
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: worked for, I wouldn't like him like that. So the
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: thing to do is just peel fresh. But then you
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: get to the butt end of those things man, that
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: barks like three inches thick, and and you could a
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: good peeler could peel enough to be able to afford
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: leather gloves, because if you were like a ship peeler,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: you'd lose money buying leather gloves. You. I mean, the
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: gloves just don't they take heat shrink tube. It's just
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: like Ed Thompson to make his own draw knights. He'd
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: take three quarter inch rebar, bend it like in a
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: big u, and then put heat shrink tubing on the
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: handles and then weld the blade on there and he'd
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: sharpen them for you, free to charge. So he'd do
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: the sharpening. He just go down there and just start
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: breaking draw a knife in those trees. Man. He had
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: a variety of things work. Yeah, he'd get some stuff
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: from out west, some stuff from Michigan. Yeah, I think
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: they mechanically peel them, but then they almost had to
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: go back and yeah, that's my understanding. And now it
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: was this dude Wendell. It was me sometimes my brothers
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: had peel a little bit, and it was a dude
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: named Barefoot. Yeah. When I was doing the freaking trees, man,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: it was for uh, it was interesting. Guys like, yeah,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna pay you five dollars and fifty cents an hour,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: which was cents more than minimum wage in Montana at
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: the time, because you're a good kid. Stoked about it.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Uh two weeks it was minimum wage. I'm like, oh yeah,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: first job, like you know, on the books job ever,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: and he guys like, ah, yeah, I didn't really know
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: if you're gonna stick around, so I put you at
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: the minimum wayage. We'll talk about this later. I still understand.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Never got paid the promised five fift Oh really good
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: lesson for a kid. And then about halfway through that summer, um,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: I got an offer we'll call it to bust rocks
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: big river rocks in the basement of a building with
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: sledgehammer because they couldn't get to get him out of
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: there so they could expand the basement of this office building.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: So that's what I did. How big are the river rocks? Huge?
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: For hammer all day? It's glacial glacial lake Missoula, big
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: aquifer boulders, like you can't pick them up and carry
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: them now? Really, yeah, that's interesting. Eight bucks an hour
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: And I was just like, whoa eight bucks an hour?
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Give me that hammer, I'll start waling on a rock.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: When I was washing dishes at Steiner's point, um, I
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: remember the owner was a lady named Gretchen, and Steiner
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: was her dog. But what I was trying to do
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: in the daytime then is I was trying to commercially
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: trap snapping turtles, which is a hard business to make
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: money in because I'd get a buck a pound for
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: turtle meat to turtle, I could have the lower shell
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: on the turtle, so you'd like you'd skin the whole turtle,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: leaving everything connected to the lower shell, so gut's head, feet,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: upper shell gone buck a pound. Very hard to make money.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I don't think you do that in Michigan anymore. At
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: the time, you could now all the weight in the
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: upper shell, is that all the way to everywhere else?
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: All your left, I mean you're left with the yield
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: on the turtle is not big, you know, it's like
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: a big game animal that yields like right, the turtle
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: is not even near that ship. I've never attempted, never
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: attempted to cut one open. Yeah, it's a chore. What
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: happened how we got into that line of work, not
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: even the line work, how I got into that attempt.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Is one day we were dipping smelt and did way
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: more smell uh than we really had any use for.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: And you're like, you don't know about restraint when your kids.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Remember me and my brother were out. We went to
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: pent Water and we dipped eight five gallon buckets to
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: smell one night. So tell me a little bit about
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: exactly like you always talk about dipping smell, but I
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: really don't even know like how that works. There's three
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: ways we'd get them, and you don't clean them right, No,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: you're I got a bunch of that freeze because my
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: buddy Michigan sends me bags of smell everywhere. But even
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: for human or human to clean them or not. We
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: would typically take a pair of scissors, cut their head
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: off and got him with scissors. Okay, but you're cleaning
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: buckets full of you know, he freezes him hole and
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: then cleans him before he eats him, or we would
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: now and then just fry the whole damn fish hole
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: and eat it like that. Anyways, So we get them
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: three ways. One always at night, so always in the dark. Uh.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: One way we'd get them isn't a run up stream
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: mouths okay, So you go to a very small stream,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: like one place we used to catch them a fair
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: bit was Duck Lake Channel. So there's a place called
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Duck Lake. Duck Lake has a channel flows out in
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Lake Michigan, and smell are in the Great la well everywhere,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: not everywhere, but this type of smell is an a
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: nadrumous smell. So this smell lives in the big water
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: runs up river to spawn and a spawn like right
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: in the lower sections of the river, not in the
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Great Lakes now, So they would run up and just
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: spawn like and basically in the mouth of a stream.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: They'd come up in the dark and you just stand
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: out there and you could either if it was really
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: good and real high and marty, you dip them blind.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Were you just taking a big net and running that
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: net down current. If it was clear water, we would
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: just hang a land around a post and you'd wait
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: and big schools of them had come by and you
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: dip them up. Or we would go to the places
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: they had break walls, so like pent Water, White Lake Channel,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: me scheg and channeling in these various channels, and we're
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: to smelt or getting ready to go up big water
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: courses and you just sit on the break walls built
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: out into the into Lake Michigan and hang a lantern
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: and you just and they just get they'd hit the wall.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: They'd hit the breake wall. The schools, and I'm talking
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: giant schools. You know, you see like pods of them
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: that were like a car right just dance with thousands
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: of them. They'd hit the brake wall and just go
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: up and down the breake wall trying to figure out
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: what to do. And you have what's called a drop net,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: and they there's certain size, like I believe at the time,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: I think you could have a thirty six inch square
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: drop nets. You have nine square feet to drop net
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: on a pole and you'd lower the drop net down
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: to the bottom and you wanted to be like the
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: color of sand. And as the school drifted over your
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: dropping that, you just lift you dropping net up and
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: that was when you were really like knocking the hell
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: out of him. It was typically like drop nets are
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: very effective. So me and Matt went to Pentwater one night.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: We dipped uh forty gallons with a drop net to
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: drop nets. But we were getting so many you we
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: were filling the bucket like it was a long walk.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: One guy want that I remember that night in particular,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: just to take one bucket up the car and come
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: back and the other the other guy dipping would have
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: his bucket full. So our fishing mentor down the beach.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: You got by the name of John Garry, who passed
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: away some years ago. Um he fished. He lived by
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: himself a fish two d days a year, and I'm
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: not it's like bullshit. Like he would show you he
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: kept track of how many days he fish and what
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: books he read, and he would like pull out of
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: his notebook to be like, here's the days I fished,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: what I fished, what I caught. And it was always
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: like a mystery, like how could John Gary eat as
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: made fish as he caught? But then he tells us
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: what I do. When I get a lot of fishes,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: I sell them down at Captain's Wharf and he'll buy
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: anything that This is illegal, and I was young and stupid,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: but he's like, they'll buy anything that that there is
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: a legal market for us. So there's still like commercial
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: perch fisheries in Canada and other places. So he would
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: buy yellow perch place no questions asked. John Gary said
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: when you're told me, warned me at the time, when
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: you're buying something from him, he has his thumb on
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: the scale, and when you're selling him something, he's got
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: his finger under the scale. But it ain't installed. Don't
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: matter what he told me. So we took all these
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: smelt down there, and I remember the guy gave us
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: forty bucks. He gave us a dollar a gallon for smell.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: And that's how I entered into this illicit relationship with
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: this man at last, from when I was around, you know,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: around that same period when I was scrubbing dishes legally
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: at Steiner's point. Yeah. Notes from the life of of
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: of a former violator. All right, so here's here's a
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: segway for you. Brad Brooks, Brad Books, our guest. Tell
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: us some what's going on? Tell tell what's your ax
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: to grind? That's not a good way that that's not
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: a good way to kick it off. Tell us, tell
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: us what you do. I have a few things I do. Uh.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm Ryan Callahan's handler. When there's media around. You
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: do that keeping making embarrassing himself? Do yeah, I do
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: um make sure he gets his hair cut on time.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: I also have a company called our Galli. Um, it's
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: like a lightweight back country hunting U company. I'll do
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: some filming stuff, um, and then my full time job
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: as I work for the Wilderness Society and I'm the
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Public Lands campaign director also specific within the Wilderness Society. Yeah,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: I mean I've done a bunch of stuff, but that's
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: kind of what I do now is run our Public
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: LANs campaign. Now, so break down the Wilderness Society formula.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: I'm venturing that most like a lot of folks out
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: of the hunting and fishing world are probably not real
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: familiar with the mandate of the Wilderness Society. Yeah. So
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: we have a mission to protect the wilderness and inspire
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Americans careful wild places. I've been around since nine one
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: of the oldest conservation organizations in America, founded by the
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: likes of Bob Marshall Alde Leopold, some of the folks
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: that kind of invented this idea of conservation in America. Uh.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: We are headquartered in d C. We have staff all
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: over the country, um, and we work on a variety
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: of issues, but Public LANs conservation is kind of the
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: core of it. What's your guys, what's your working definition
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: of wilderness, dude, that's that's that's a really a tough
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: question to answer. There's like capital W wilderness, congessionally designated wilderness,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: that's very federally recognized wilderness, federally recognized wilderness. There's a
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: law and a definition, right. I think that is a
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: very small subset of what we consider to be wilderness
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: that we call small W wilderness is really kind of
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: in the eye of beholder. Um so for some people,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: like a park in a city, is their idea of wilderness. Uh,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: that's that's a stretch. But surely for some people that's
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: that is their wilderness experience, like, because they wouldn't be like, hey,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: I'm going into the wilderness and they'll walk into the man,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know, you'd be surprised, Uh, wilderness. Call it
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: like the wilds, the wilds go for a walk in
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: the woods, I think would be fair to say. But
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: this is where I gets like, that's how the woods dude,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: that's a park comfort zone. All yeah, okay, well let
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: me ask you this then, Okay, let's talk. Let's get
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: into this, because like my idea of like a wilderness
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: experience is being dropped off and like the frank or
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: the Frank Church or some wild place. I just I
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: don't really like to see other people when I'm in
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: the wilderness. But that is a very unique perspective of
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: the amount of people, the types people that use wilderness.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: If you go to like the Red Rocks uh n
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: c A outside of Vegas Red Rocks, the Rainbow Canyon wilderness,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: it is just like you think you're in a theme park.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: There's so many people like hiking up and down the
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: trail and I mean it's just like a never ending
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: stream of national park. It is like people got speakers
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: or listening to music. It's like, but it's wilderness. Uh,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: to that designated wilderness, and for some people, they might
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: go like a hundred yards into that area, sit down,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: kind of look at the mountains and be like I
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: love being in the wilderness, Like this is just so
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: much fun, And that's their wilderness experience. So that's why
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: I say it is kind of in the eye beholder,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: like that is not what I would consider to be
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: a wilderness experience. But that's you know, But all right,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: but is the organization? Are you guys involved in all
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: fifty states? No? Uh, most of them, Uh, certainly all
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: the Western States pretty much stays where's pub land, so
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: a heavy presidents in Alaska, all over the West, and
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: then on the East coast, uh, Maine, North Carolina, South Carolina,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: all those beautiful national forests. We do do some work
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: in Michigan Sleeping Bare Dunes. Yeah, yeah, you're familiar with that. Yeah,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: we worked on the rights off there. Man. Okay, um,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: there's a wilderness bill they got designated there. What was
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: that not too long ago? Yeah, I can't remember the year. Um,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: so yeah, so we work on We worked pretty much
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: anywhere there's a public land. Um. And you know, it's
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: not just I know wilderness is in our name, but
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: we work on public lands issues sort of rit large.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: So it's not just we're not my optically focused on
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: just designate wilderness. It's like it's very it's much broader
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: than that. In fact, wilderness campaigns, you know, I worked
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: on a number of them over the years, but that's
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: a very small part of what we do. So what's
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: your guy, I know you like the HUBB, what's your
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: what's the organization's relationship to hunting? Are they adversarial to hunting? No?
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Do you have to like hide the fact that you'd
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: like to go hunting. No, not at all. No, that's
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: a fair question. I get a lot actually. Um, you know,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: I was fortunate when I first started with Willdern Society.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: I got hooked up with them. Out of college. I
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: went and worked. I was on I was on a
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: fish biology crew up the Sawtoos. Lived in the Sawtuo.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: You were born in Idaho? Uh No, I actually wasn't,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: but I moved it at host shortly after I was born.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Um like it's a little kid you got. Yeah, yeah, so,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: uh but I lived in the Sawtoos in the white
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: clouds for a summer. Uh trap or shocking bull trout?
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Looking for new populations of bull trout find any I did? Yeah,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: swarn of secrecy. I can't tell you where they're at,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: but I found some big ones, like you found a
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: population of bull trout that wasn't like on the map.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Several yeah really? Oh yeah. We would go place these
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: uh temperature what the hell they called little temperature sensors.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: We go time zip time to like rocks and brush
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: and little creeks, and then we would go back. If
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: the temperature, the water temperature is a certain and a
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: certain within a certain range, of biologists would send us
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: back to go shock it because they knew you that
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: bull try don't exist. They like to spawn in a
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: certain temperature range. Um. So then we'd go, we'd hike.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: I mean I would hike a car battery and like
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: two pairs like rubber boots, like deep into the wilderness. Um.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: It was some of the most miserable work. I mean
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I've done everything from picking up you know, dog excrement
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: for a living as a young kids, scraping and I'll
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: tell you what, man, when the mosquitoes and the horse
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: flies were like really bad and the ticks were really bad,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: and you're like just trudging through brush all day off trail,
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: some of that thick stuff. It was. It was kind
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: of miserable. Um. At some point in time it sounded
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: like a dream job. When I got the job, I
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: was like, oh man, I'm in heaven. I got to
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: like hike every day and like shot fish. But then
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: like reality of it was like this is work. I
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: want to interject on two points. Yeah, I think I
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: might have talked about both these. But I was in
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: the Philippines and I saw a subsistence fisherman who had
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: homemade shocking fish shocking rigs where they had car batteries.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: They made a backpack out of detergent bottles. So they
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: take a big, huge detergent bottle and cut the top
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: off put a car battery in there. And the shoulder
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: straps are made out of rope, and they had wands,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: and they would go out on the rocks in the
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: river and just run those wands under the rocks. And
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: another guy would be on a rock downstream with a
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: net and they had shock up little shrimp and and
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: then cook him up. The second story is like, I
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: feel like this is sort of a story about a divinity.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Where my brother was shocking fish in the state of
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Pennsylvania when he was I think he might have been
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: in graduate school or doing small jobs on a head
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: of going to graduate school for ecology. He was shocking fish.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: It was walking back from doing a sample on a stream,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: and a bolt of lightning came out of the heavens
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: and struck the ground next to him, and the electricity
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: went up into the sack of fish and shocked his arm.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Now that isn't like big Man saying, hey, taste your
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: old medicine, buddy, just so you know, just so you
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: know I'm watching the challenge of shocking was always like
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: finding the right voltage, right current, because you don't want to,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: like you don't want to. You know, you could smoke
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: a beaver too, Like the bigger it is, the bigger
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: it is more the more it shocks. So you could
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: smoke turtles and beavers on accident, right yeah, oh yeah,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: and I uh, I mean we can go deep into this.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: But it was also like always you know, you are
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: trying to find the right voltage, and then I was
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: always surprised to do what have range but not be lethal. Correct, Yeah,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: you want to stun them, but you don't want to
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: kill him, right, so you want to be able to
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: put them back. Um, we caught a ton of sculping.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: There's like sculping all over those mountain streams if you
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: just don't know about you had no idea they were there,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: so you don't catch them when you're fishing. Yeah, exactly. Um,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: and big ones too. But you also catch some really
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: big fish that I wouldn't have guessed exists up in
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: some of those mountain streams. So like big game fish,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: I mean for like cutthroat, Yeah, I mean big cutthroats
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: for you know you catch it. You have a little
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: stream that's only like that wide and pulled out fourteen
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: inche cut through its And where's that? Where's that? Dude?
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: When I'm fishing? Yeah, I know right, because I'm like
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: catching these little guys. But uh so when I when
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: I I did that, got hooked up the Willers side,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: you know. I mean I've always been um in a
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: hunting So I didn't really like I went to work
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: with the Willers side because I knew what they did,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: but like I didn't have any like I wasn't worried
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: that like, oh man, I wonder if these guys like
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: you know are pro hunting. I knew they were pro hunting,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: but I didn't really have any like Bob Marshall and
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: l Loopold. Yeah, maybe I was just naive. I didn't
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: realize there were folks that kind of had that opinion
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: of the Willdern side that maybe we're we're not a
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: group of sport of hunting. But where did the where
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: did that sense come from? For me? No? No, no,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: if people have it, where did they get it? Oh?
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: You have to ask. It's like a high profile thing.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: It was like what it was like a pissing match
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: about some sort of hunting activities on designated wilderness. Or
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of folks who just think conservation groups
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: in general are some you know, ultra liberal um conspiracy
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: to eventually take away hunting and fishing. Yeah, like that
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: dude that wrote to us suggesting that the Clintons put
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: wolves into Yellowstone as a way to disarm America because
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: the wolves would eat all the game and then no
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: one would have a reason to buy a gun anymore.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: And it was a gun control measure. It's called the
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: long con the long game. Uh yeah, I mean, I
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: don't know, there's a lot of it's probably a lot
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: of reasons. I think Ryan's right. I think that like
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: just folks just generally, it's like you work on conservation,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: you're just kind of suspect in general. Um. Yeah, but
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: it is possible, like it is true that some organizations, okay,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: that maybe they'll maybe they even you know, you know,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: we always had you Honestly, I had this ongoing discussion
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: about who gets to own the term environmentalists, Right, so
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: we have this so for a lots of we had
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: like we have like conservationists, like conservation and it has
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: a connotation or that has a sort of rings in
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: a certain way in people's minds. And it's a term
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: that for many, many many years, uh was you know,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: a term of sort of describing a type of environmentalism,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: um owned by hunters and fishermen. Okay, now you see
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: that like groups that were traditionally what might have identified
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: as environmental groups start to use the term conservation because
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: conservation has a more positive connotation in the America and
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: the popular American mind. People hear the word environmentalists, they
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: think radical. People hear the word conservation, and they think
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: that it's um, it's like more of a business friendly, pragmatic,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: realistic form of environmentalism. And I think there's and this
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: isn't true. I mean it's not true across that it's
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: not true. It's not universally true. But it's like this,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: the sort of wrestling matches has occurred around this word.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: And I think that there are some groups, like I know,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: for instance, like sierra clubs. So they'll do some stuff
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: around like you'll see Sierra club stuff where they'll have
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: a guy doing a little upland bird hunting. Right, You'll
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: be like hunting some pheasants and and and maybe a
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: guy like catches a trout and pokes a hole in
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: its face and lets it go, and that's like they're like, yeah,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: you know, we're kind of cool with that, but you're
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: not gonna go on their website and find something to
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: a bit doing a grip and grind with a dead bull,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: his tongue hanging out of his mouth. It's just they're
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: just not gonna go near it because they want to
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: sort of they want to kind of like not alienate
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: what they would call the hook and bullet crowd, but
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: they don't really want to embrace it either. And then
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: when an issue comes up, um, you'll often find that
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: they're on you know, you'll often find that there maybe
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: a little bit adversarial to state management of wildlife, and
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: they generally tend to side with hands off federalist approach
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: toward wildlife management. And so you'd say to the Sierra
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Club guy, like, hey, are you guys anti hunting? Of
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: course not, we just had a guy holding a trout
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: on our website. But when you look at the mean,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: you know that the average of activities that they've centered
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: themselves around, they haven't generally been friendly toward. Yeah, no,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: and and I have a real I have a strong
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: I have a theory as well on this whole, like
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: environmental versus conservation the term like, how do you self describe?
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Somebody asked you, hey, Steve conservationist, environmentalist, radical conservationist, radical conservationist. Yeah,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: that's a good one. I've thought about that one. I
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: thought about options. Ce uh. You know if you say,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: I mean the term the term environmental environmentalist has been
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: is that sort of a catch all phrase for folks
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: that are in the animal rights camp, to folks that
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: are in the sort of the more left flank of
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: the environmental world. So so, like, I can't tell you
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: how much I cringe when, like I see, like, you know,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: animal rights group A is doing X, Y and z.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: You know that they don't see animal rights. They say
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: the media is like an environmental group, you know, it's
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: you know, doing X, Y and Z. And I'm like,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: they're not an environmental organization. They're animal rights organization. They're
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: focused on individual animals. That's exact really what they do.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: That's all they really are focused on. Clueless about habitat,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: clueless about long term They're like it if it's a
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: little bear and he has a name like pedals. They're
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: like that's who I'm That's what I'm looking out for.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Is that bear? Right, there's life expectancy of about three years.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: And you know you also remember like Willdern Siety, like
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: our constituency are members, like we have a wide array
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: of members, right, so like it's not um, you know,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: like while sportsman's organization might be like we only like
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: we represent like this one segment of the populations, like
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: our our constituency, it's like everybody from hikers, horseback riders,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: you know, hunter fishermen, like mountain bikers, runners, and so
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: we try and be like, um, not trying to be
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: too offensive in our messaging to like uh, and we're
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: cognative like how we present what we do to everybody. UM.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you're probably not gonna see a grip and
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: ground on our homepage. It just has nothing to do
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: with what you're talking about. Yeah, and it's not um,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: but you're not. I canna see a grip and grin
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: out of vacuum cleaner web page here because it's like
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: it's it's not related to the best. Now that that said,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: we have used I have there have been gripping rooms
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: of me and our media work. Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: um on various campaigns. In fact one uh one picture
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: it's like I didn't realize, but my hands were just
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: like I just got it was like a mule deer photo.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: It's like me, it's just like blood kind of just
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: smattered about and like hands blood and I've got like
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: hands on the horns. And that ended up in some
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: of our our communications materials for a while. There's no
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: big blowback. No, I mean I don't see all the mail.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: So as far as that, nobody told me if there was,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: you know, so can I can I a see you
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: about one issue has nothing to do with hunting, Just
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: to get a sense of sort of how you guys
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: look at stuff. Are you familiar with this push that
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: people think that you should be. Let me bring the
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: listeners up to speed and then i'll ask the question
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: the way. So, so wilderness with a capital W like
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: federally designated worlderness areas. Um, you're not allowed to use
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: mechanized equipment and you're not allowed to use wheeled conveyances
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: on the land, so you can hike and use livestock.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: This is generally true, Like it's very difficult you know
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: you can't land helicopters, land airplanes, uh, ride bikes, pull wagons,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: any of the wheels, any of the motor but I
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: know that like mountain bikers are all fired up about
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: that they can't go ripping around on their mountain bikes
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: through a wilderness. Tell me you, guys, what where is
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: your guys stance on that? I got strong opinion on
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: that one. See uh I used to raise mountain bikes.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Still coming from a mountain biker, I don't. Yeah, I
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: mean I self identify as like a recreational mountain biker
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: now for sure. Um and uh yeah, I mean we're
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: strongly opposed to it. Yeah, I mean like guys going
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: twenty five Yeah, a long trails. You're not why like
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: their thing is like, oh we enjoy the area. It's
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: just like just enjoy it somewhere else. Yeah, there's plenty
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: of places to go, real, I asked on wheeled conveyances. Yeah,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: I do not feel like I need to as a
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: mountain breker. I don't feel like you need to be
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: able to take my mountain bike anywhere. You know. I
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: don't feel like you have to feel a ride a
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: motorcycle everywhere. I feel like there's kind of like a
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: everybody has their place in the landscape. You just got
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: to like figure out, you know, where those uses can occur.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: And percent of the country is fairly designated wilderness, uh
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: two two point six percent, So there's a lot of ground.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of ground out there for bike riding.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: You could say there was of the America, Like mountain
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: bikers are like, yeah, I know, like I can ride
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: my bike on nineties seven percent of the American land mask,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: but that's just not enough for me. I gotta have
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: it all, man, I need it. Yeah. Yeah, it dries
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: to be crazy. I can't ride my bike anywhere I want. Yeah, No,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: it's it's a guys. You guys pushing a bit pushed
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: back on that. Yeah, I mean we uh yeah, I
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: mean that is very much a direct like assault on
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: the Wilderness Act. I mean to intent the intent of
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: the wilderness. Well, how do you how do you I
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: mean draw that? I mean, if you know anything about
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: mountain bikes, you know that the line between electronic motorcycle
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: and mountain bikes is incredibly blurry. With these new e
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: bikes assist bikes, um and you can even hide now
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: you can hide like an electronic assist motor in like
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: the tube of your bike. That's what I heard people
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: are doing. Yeah, and so you couldn't you look at
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: it if you're like trying to enforce it's like you
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: look at your likes. Just look like a mountain bike
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: to me. But the guy's got a motor in there, um,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: and you can go I mean a charge, I'll get you.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: I mean you can go back. So you're hunting, you
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: can go back like twelve fifteen miles and your bike
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: no problem, not a ton of effort. Um. So that
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: line is really blurry. So if you allow, like you know,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: mountain bikes, and what's next, you know, like what's the
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: case against like motorcycles a TV. It's like so it
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: kind of just cuts at the core of like why
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: do we even have wilderness. If you're going to start allowing,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: you have to drop it is controversial, but you do
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: have to kind of draw a line somewhere. The line
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: is not that blurry if you're the poor fool that
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: it's got a sixty five pound pack who just uped
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: at fifteen mile back in there and you come some
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: blow hard out of fat tire bike. Yeah, I tell
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: you that's pretty crystal clear. So one thing I'll say
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: about the whole mountain bike and wilderness thing is that,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: you know, just this is my personal view of the
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: whole situation. Is you know, there was a relatively high profile,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: high controversial designation in Idaho around the Bolt of White
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: Clouds Wilderness. Um. I worked on that campaign, and uh
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: it was it was uh an end to a very
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: It was like a four decade long campaign basically, and
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: I did a backpack hunting there with my my older
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: brother and to this one area where there was some
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: controversy around which we you know, leave this trail open
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: or not. And I have to tell you, like I
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: kind of tried to go out with the open mind
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: and just like go to the area and kind of
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: experience it and see, just try and see how it
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: would be with mountain bikes. And I came away with
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: just personally feeling like they just absolutely didn't belong in
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: that area. It was a wild place and if you
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: had you know, guys and gals just ripping down this
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: trail all day long, it would make it feel even
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: though I had to go like whatever, it was like
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: seven miles again back in there, that it would make
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: it feel like I was just like in my backyard, um,
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: because there's just people everywhere. Um. So it's kind of
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: a subjective thing, but just for me personally, it's like
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: there's some places where it's just okay to just walk,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: you know, but it's not. It's not really subjective. We
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: look at what the like they kind of spell out
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: pretty clearly, like what it is. Yeah, oh yeah, there's
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: no room in the wilderness sack form. But they were
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: talking about drawing the boundaries kind of Oh I'm sorry,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: like in that case, yeah, how are you gonna draw it? Yeah,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, the the argument here is is we want
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: people to appreciate these places, and if your preferred means
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: of access is by a mountain bike, you aren't going
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: to go in and and uh uh see these areas
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: and therefore appreciate them and want to I want to
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: be around a long term is uh kind of the
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: flip side of the argument. And all these lands are
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: managed for everybody, um, lots of different user groups out there.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: It's got to be space for everyone. Um so yeah,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: I mean there's a big The mountain bike community around
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: catch Them was certainly up in arms over the fact
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: that um this Germania isn't it. Germania is open still,
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: Germania is open trailers because they're pissed about having lost accident.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: There like a spot that um they used to be
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: able to go and now they can't. Right. Yeah, that
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: rails people up more than the continuation of of a closure. Yeah,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: that's that's kinda I was talking with somebody about this recently.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you and I cal but like
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: that's true just in politics in general. Right, It's like
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: you've got people know when they don't know as much
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: who gives them a benefit, but they sure as he'll
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: remember who takes some away from him. So you take
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: some away from somebody, they're gonna remember you. Politicians know that, right.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: So it's like same thing. It's like I don't know
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: who gave me that mountain bike trail, but like you
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: take it away, like I'm gonna remember who you are.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: So hey, real quick before we get back into what,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: remind to me, Like what's the hike you guys do? Oh?
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: The death hike? Yeah, tell me the death hike? Yeah?
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Are you coming this year? I don't think I am
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: not knock. I'm kno because I'm chicken. I just don't
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: think I am so just various obligates. Yes, I remember
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: when I talked about it. I wasn't it didn't line
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: up with what I had going on. Uh, this is
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: something that Ryan really wants to try and do this
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: year too, right, I was gonna say it. I'm busy.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: I don't believe in the Rand's like, what are you're
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: going hiking? Just to go hike? So spell, what's the walk?
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: It's not my I think it's my My buddy Steve
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: puts it on. It's called the Death Hike, and uh,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: it's essentially like, uh, last year we got dropped off
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: in Chamberlain Base from the Frank and it was like
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: a four. Yeah, we call it the Frank Uh. And
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: we got dropped in Chamberlain Base and was kind of
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: in the middle of the Frank Church and then hiked out.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: It's like dropped off via airplane. It was like a
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: landing strip in there. Eighteen air strips in the Frank Church.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: There were grandfather into that wilderness area. Um really eighteen
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: in the Frank Church or seven seventeen or eighteen. Yeah, yeah,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: I got place is huge, it's massive. Um yeah, it's
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: well you, especially if you can bin it the Sullway
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: in the frank together. It's like the in the Lower
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: forty it's the biggest contiguous wilderness in Lower forty eight.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: So I feel like two places claim that who's that?
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: What's the other one? The um Bob Marshall scapegoat all
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: that they're wrong? Yeah, North Fork as a contiguous I've
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: never heard that the it's not a spotted bear, Bob scapegoat.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Bob Marshall Wilderness complex is contiguous UM two point two
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: million acres total. Yes, yeah, I'm pretty sure that's quite
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: a bit smaller than the ash of the contiguous wilderness AIS.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: We're gonna hash this out later, Ryan, respect to wilderness.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: You bring your stats. I'll bring my stats big as
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: big as you fly in. We got flun in and
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: it was like the whole point is that you just
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: hike out. You know, it's kind of as as quick
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: as you can, and so you just go light, you know,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: bring like a pack, no tens of sleeping bag. And
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: this last year I got pretty uh got pretty western
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: because you know, the first we walked like, I don't know,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: like twenty six miles for which isn't too bad you
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: gotta light pack. And then we camped on this peak,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: and then the next day we had to drop into
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: the south Fork of the Salmon River corridor and then
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: climb back out. Um. Well it's six thousand vertical down
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: to the south Fork of the Salmon and sixty five
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: back up. Um. And if you've never dropped that much
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: and then climb back out that much like, it's a lot.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: And so as you're going down and starts getting hotter
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: and hotter and hotter, the rattlesnakes are coming out. So
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: by the time we get down to the south Fork
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: with the Salmon, we're probably thirty eight miles in. Um.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: A few hours of sleep, and you know, everybody brought
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: just real minimal food. And then a couple of guys
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: um kinda out. Let's see, they thought they were tougher
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: than they were. Think. It's an easy way to say it. Um,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: that's a hard hike if you're coming, especially if you're
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: not used to elevation, right, and guys are starting to
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: fall apart at this point in time. You got blisters,
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: real bad guys. Feet are just getting torn up. Those
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: guys are going down first, um, and then you've got
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: heat exjoshtion is getting real serious and a few guys too.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: You guys are puking. It couldn't hold down water and
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: we still have to climb up out of the canyon.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Um And there really there was two options at that point,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: like one guy, you go down and take a jet
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: boat out or climb back out. And three of us,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: realizing how kind of the general feeling in the group,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: were like, well, the trucks are at the top of
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: this next mountain, so we're we'll go hike to the
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: top and then we'll drive down this ridge and we
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: send everybody else down to this this other spot, which
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: was like shorter distance and not as much climbing, and
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: uh it ended up I think it ended up being
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: forty six or forty seven miles, got out right about dark,
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: and uh it was And how many hours did it
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: take you guys to go forty seven miles? Uh, let's see,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: I can't remember. It was like we got dropped off
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: around like midday, hiked all the way until dark, and
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: then got up early next day and got out of dark.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: What is they like thirty six hours something like that.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: So it's not an incredibly fast pace like a good
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: ultra runner could do that no problem. But um, I
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: think just with a heat distance elevation, everything kind of
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: got to a lot of people. The real the real
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: pisser was though, as we were climbing up out of
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: South Fork Salmon Corridor, I started getting into like nine
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: bark brush country, so brushy under undergrowth, and it was
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: a burn so there's like logs down. Oh that's the
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: other part of the story is like there wasn't really
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: a trail for the last like half the trip, so
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: you're just go crawling over deadfall for like half that mileage,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: which is not fun. And then the snakes, the rattlesnakes
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: started showing up, So I started like almost stepping on
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: rattlesnakes and that nine bark brush and down timber and
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of snakes, and so like that
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: was when I that was not a fun situation for me.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Um almost stepped on two rattlesnakes, came real close to him.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: It's a nice little hike, nice little hike. And uh,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: like a few guys found religion that night. I'm serious.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: There were some guys that were like worshiping a snake gods.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: They were happy to be alive. Like one guy, I
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: thought for sure I was gonna have to go. I
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: thought you might as get met it backed out like
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: he was. How many people started the hike, they were
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: thirteen of us. Last week people finished it just ready
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: to rock. How many people finished four of I think
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: four of us finished that weren't puking, four or five
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: of us and weren't puking or kind of like really struggling.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: So I just want to check on that real quick.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: We're doing it again this year, different hike, different hike though, Yeah,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: when might come to do that? Sometimes that sounds fun.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: So the poisoners, I want to do the rim to
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: rim to rim You you heard of that one? No,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: that sounds pretty all the way down to the bottom,
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: up to this side, turn around, come back and do
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: it again. They probably look at our hike to be like,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: that's cute. We do that for a warm up. There's
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: the thing ends up being forty seven miles and the
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: goal is to do it stub four. That's that's some
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: coyote stuff right there. I mean I felt like we could.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: What I would like to do is just like keep going.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: That's a nice trail. The whole way I mean super
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: it makes a big difference. Yeah, it's like when you don't,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: when you're not, when you have to concentrate on where
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: what's going. That doesn't make it easy. No, no, no,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm saying when you
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: don't have to be like, we're gonna put my foot,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: we're'm gonna put my foot, We're gonna put my foot
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: every time you take a step. It's a lot different
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: when you're crawling, like you know, like dead fall, like
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: stacked on each other, you know. In fact, I saw
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: a monster bowl right about the time I started seeing
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: the snakes, and uh, I knew exactly. I was like,
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: this is a good looking area for elk. I start
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: seeing a lot of elks and saw a huge bowl
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: and this is like what is this July? And I
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: was like, I don't care. I'll never come back here.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: I'll never come back here. It's like not worth it.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: So we covered up. We covered you guys and bikes,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: which wasn't working to top about now talk about you guys.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Here's the main thing I want to talk about, um
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: is is your findings and your work around the federal
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: land transfer debate, which is this ongoing thing that comes
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: up often this digital radio program, and comes up often
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: in American society. You know, it comes up and then
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: goes away and takes a decade off, and it comes
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: back again. And right now we're kind of in the
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: worst of it that we've seen, I think in the
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: in the modern era. Um, the worst of it we've
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: seen since uh Teddy Roosevelt fought tooth and nail to
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: establish our federal land management system. Um, it's the worst
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: like affront to that we've seen, which is going on
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: right now the last few years is unparalleled efforts to
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: force the federal government to dispose of your public land
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: hunting and fishing grounds. UM. And you guys are one
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: of many groups battling this and the thing that I
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: want to talk to you about. They're not just hunging
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: fishing grounds, right, No, that's what I think of them as. Yeah,
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: it's in Corton bird watching grounds. I don't fill in
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: your favorite thing. That's just how I view whatever floats
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: your boat. I'm talking to man that I'm talking to
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: many the kind of Joe blows that that are listening
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: to us. But yeah, federal public, federally managed public, just
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: in case there's someone else. It's like in the bad
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: all right. So if there's someone else, he has no
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: ability to like imagine thinking broad strokes. Yes, Johnny rattle
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: off a list of activities that one might participate in
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: on federally managed public lands. General water sports. Okay, you're
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: federally managed water sports locations. Uh Um. When I say
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: fairly managed, that's important because when people say like federally owned,
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: like the federal everment doesn't own the land, Okay, what
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: it is is the the the American people, right, the
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: citizens of the United States on the land, and their trustee,
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: like the person that we have, you know, dedicated to
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: managing them on our behalf. In many cases multiple use
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: landscapes is the federal garment. So that's why we were
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: saying federally managed public lands. And a big part of
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: this debate like a way that the people who want
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: to ditch federal managed lands um one are generally motivated
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: by they want unfettered access to extract mineral resources. Like
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: if you eliminated if you eliminated the pool of people,
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: the pool of this very small pool a very wealthy
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: and very influential individuals who want less cumbersome a less
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: cumbersome pathway to extracting mineral resources and making boatloads of
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: money off it. If you remove those people, we wouldn't
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: be having this conversation. That's not Brad talking as me talking.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: It's generally what this is about. In a way that
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: they push this agenda is they feel that um, rather
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: than saying we want to privatize it, what they what
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: they say is that we want to hand it over
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: to state management. And they'll do like, oh yeah, because
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: locals no best and so they want to hand over
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: to state management. But states, unlike the federal government, aren't
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: in the large scale land management business, and states oftentimes
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: because of their own constitutions can't uh can't run an
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: unbalanced budget, right, so if they have a deficit, they
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: need to liquidate assets, and what often happens is they
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: liquidate lands. So when people are talking about handing federal
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: land over to the states, it's like code language for
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: the gradual what will become the gradual privatization of land
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: that now belongs to the American people. It's open access,
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: and what they know is whether it goes to the
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: states or whether eventually riinds up being privatized. It will have, Um,
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: it will be a greasier, easier path towards some people
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: monetizing resources on that land. You cool with all that
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: sounds good? All right? A thing people say is they say, no,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: that's not true because the states they'll do a better job.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: All right. Does that sounds like a thing people say
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: it does? Yep? What about Brad like take that take
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: it from that point and explain what you have found
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: as you guys have looked into state versus federal management
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: and is it really just the same thing but a
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: different name when the land goes to the states. Yeah,
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: So it's part of our work. You know. We realized
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: too when we would uh, you know, do some polling
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: on folks like how do you feel about this issue?
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: People would be like, I like land. You know, they
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: don't really understand like the difference between state federal county.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: It's all just land that they can use, right, So
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: to try and really uh help people understand the difference
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: between state and public land. Um, we we've done a
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: series a series of work that kind of shined a
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: light on kind of the difference between state and public land,
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: and uh done a series of reports when we to
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: in Idaho, and focused on state land sales. Just like
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: what's the track record of Western states with managing and
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: selling land? Um And a couple of portant things like
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: you mentioned some of them. There's like the difference in
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: maximum revenue generation that states, all Western states have an
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: obligation by their constitution to abide versus the multiple use
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: mandate a public land federally managed, federally managed public land, yeah,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: um so. And the other thing we found is that
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: you know that you know, states have a long history
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: of selling off their lands, and there is you know,
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: if I was gonna it was another book idea for it.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: You could write a whole book on the corruption about
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: how state lands have been disposed in the West. It
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: is a fascinating tale, as I sort of got in
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: a candidac desert, but about public exactly. Yeah, no, for sure,
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: Like um so, in Idaho, for example, like the state
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: is you know, liquidated its state lands. Um you all
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: know Nevadas like ninety nine point eight percent of its
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: public lands. Back up, back up. A couple of things
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: here of the state land, of the land that the
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: state of Nevada has owned, they have liquidated. It's like
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: it's all but they have three thousand acres of state
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: land left out of the when every state was formed.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have talked about this
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: school trust land school trust but there were other lands too,
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: So the state was given lands for UH public uses,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: so that include hospitals, to benefit hospitals, UH schools. The
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: vast majority of federal lands given to states when they
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: became states was to be used for the benefit of
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: UH schools. They calling down and oftentimes I'm not sure
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: this is universal, but oftentimes would be one set action
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: out of every thirty six. So if you had a
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: six six by six square mile chunk land, one of
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: those one section would be like what what some states
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: would call or in some times, I guess probably in
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: some periods of American history, those parcels were described as
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: school trust lands, and it would be that the state
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: could use revenues from that to finance public education. And
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: some states would just literally they just get it and
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: then sell it and be like they're done. Or some
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: states would use it and lease out grazing rights on
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: it or mining things on it, or some states would
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: do trades swaps and instead of having one loan section
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: out of thirty six. They would do swaps in order
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: to get a contiguous block of a bunch of sections
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: and then do whatever to monetize it. Some states on
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: those lands, like Montana, Um, it's pretty open, like like
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: on state lands, a lot to do certain activities. Other
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: states really curtail the activities you can do on like
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: state lands in Colorado you can't camp overnight. There are
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: some states that don't even allow hunting on state public
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: so their state lands are not public land. No, no,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: I mean you got to. I canna show you pictures
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: from like New Mexico and Idaho, like signs that say
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: you know, property State of Idaho, keep out like they're
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: all over the place. Um so so yeah, no, state
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: land is definitely not public And when you start looking
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: at the history too, so each state was given these lands.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: Some states got a better deal. The must have been
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: better negotiators. Like New Mexico got like I think it's
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: like every like six thirty second. They got more land.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: They like twelve million acres. They were given a statehood.
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: Um what they do all New Mexico is sold off
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: I want to say, like four and a half million
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: acres of their state lands. So they still have some
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: of it sold all theirs vir Texas all together in
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: the West, like their states have disposed of thirty million
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: acres of state land to date, and a lot of
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: states like have as a part of their their management portfolio.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: You remember, their mandated to make money. They have you know,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: real estate, you know investment as a part of that.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: They're what they do, so that includes you know, selling
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: buying land. Um. So we like Utah for example, like
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: Utah has like massive planned communities on state land. I
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: mean I'm talking about massive plan communities too, So you're
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: talking about like that's built already that they are in
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: the process of building. Like they're like in the land
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: development business. Like go to St. George, Like you can
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: find us all on their website too. It's like not
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: hard to find, but you're not a St. George. You
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: have this massive plan community. I'm talking like golf courses,
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: like you know, strip malls, like houses. Like imagine like
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: if you were at your favorite hunting hole and that
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: little like spot of ground outside of St. George and
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: they're like next, you know, come back like two years
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: later and you're like, holy hell, there's a golf course.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: Rather they somehow dug it out and made it that
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: it was a hole in the earth the golf course
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: on of that man. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. O god,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: it's just like yeah, so so those are one out
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: and beating around little balls to be like, oh, mine's
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: close to the whole. If it's even closer to the whole.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, that people like that. I just can't
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: even bring your dog. I can't not understand, like, oh look,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: oh bye bye by the whole. So I tell you're
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: not a golfer gold. I cannot understand it. But nuts
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: and bolts of this issue comes down to um or.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: They say, it always comes down, well, who's going to
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: manage it better? So you know, I have buddies that
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: are state foresters and Montana taking a lot of pride
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: in their work, and they point at the fads and say, oh,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: we're doing a better job than those guys are. Um
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: I think what always always gets lost in the shuffle
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: is the federally managed lands are managed for everyone, and
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: the state managed lands they have typically one objective, which
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: is make us some money. Can up real quick. Just
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: to clarify that my old man was a golfer. My
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: dear bygone father was a golfer. So I don't want
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: to you know, I don't want to speak ill of
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: the dead. Your dad did, so, Like what kind of
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: golfer are we talking about? He remember he had a
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: three He had a three wheeled Harley Davidson golf cart.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: I tell you that that's interesting. Um, anyways, you're talking
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: about the FEDS. No, I think you're right though, it's
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: not that. And the point isn't that state lands are bad.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not like, oh, state lands are bad
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: now they serve a purpose. But the question is like,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: would you want all public land to go over to
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: that bucket where you're taking What you're doing in that
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: bucket has a propensity to tip over and get emptied? Yeah? Clear,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: Like look at the records, Like people are like, no,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: it wouldn't get sold if it looks turns to state
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: And I'm that's why we're doing this. A lot of sporks,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Like people say, who's saying that? Why do I hear
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: that from so many people? Well, because they're like, you know,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: they're I have a I have a way to say it,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: but it's probably not appropriate for your podcast. What is it?
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: I think they're full of ship? Um, I mean it's
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: like no, I mean, they're just I think it's dishonest, right,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: And that's what we try to point out. It's like, um,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: you're saying that the states won't sell it, but then
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: I'm looking over here at the data and the real
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: estate transaction and low and behold, like it's been sold.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: It gets sold every year. Like, so should I believe
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: what you say or what's actually happened over the last
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: you know, a hundred plus year history of state land management.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: What I heard the other day was well, why don't
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: we try something new and just like we transfer them,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: but then we write in this rule that says they
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: can't they're not state trust and they're not gonna be sold,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: they're not there to make money that they should be
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: actually kept as public. Yeah, that's that's where this whole.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: So this issue is kind of like an amba. It's
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: like just shape shifting, Like yeah, it's like oh, the
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: dodging Bullet's like, okay, we don't want to sell you
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: public lands. Well we'll keep public lands public. Let's just
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: like give all the management control to some county officials
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: and like the timber industry and the mining industry, how
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: does that say with you. So it's the same thing
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: in some ways, it's even worse. Right, It's like you're
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: telling me that we're gonna keep public land public, but
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: we're gonna take all the decision making authority out of
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: the public hands. And I mean I'm talking about theoretical bills.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: These are actual bills that are in Congress right now. Um,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: that would seed management authority to a selector for people.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: So it's it's like, yeah, like that. There's like the
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: recent piece, so there was a build, it was dismissed
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: or withdrawn. There was just telling the Department of the Interior,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: um like a mandate to the to the Secretary of
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: Interior that he had to dispose of three million acres.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: And then there was a sort of a cousin or
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: sister piece of legislation to that that would strip away
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: law enforcement capabilities still around. Oh yeah, the strip law
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: enforcement capability is away from federal agencies, so that the
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: BLM didn't have a law enforcement division. And when you
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: get into that stuff, that's just being like, uh I
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: I equated it at one point too. Uh. Me and
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: my wife have an argument about whether or not a
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: dishwasher is good to have or not okay, And I say, like,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: it was less efficient and doesn't work as well is
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: washing it by hand, And my wife'ss no, no, no, no,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: washing it by hand is less efficient and doesn't work
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: as well as the dishwasher. If I were to go
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: in and disable the dishwasher some way, like like screw
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: up the dishwasher in order to make my idea, in
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: order to make my argument more true. Right, That's what
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: when people do this stuff, like the law enforcement thing,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: they're so pissed and blinded buy like hatred of federal
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: land management that they're like, yeah, but it doesn't work
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: this way. It doesn't work this way. And people are like, no,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: it actually works pretty well. If you look at the alternative,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: it's like oh no, no, because wait, when I strip
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: away law enforcement capabilities from these agencies, then you'll see
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: that it doesn't work. See what happens then, Yeah, now
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: I'll tell me it doesn't work because I'm going in
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: and sabotaging the whole system to make what I say true.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: In this way, when there is a bunch of crime
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: on federal land, I can go see, see, you guys
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: don't know how to manage Well, that's what's been going
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: on physical, Oh, it's been going on for years. That
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: might go sabotage my dishwasher and then be like, Hi,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: the dishwasher doesn't work. Told you be careful with that
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: one fire? Uh yeah, no, I mean it's like, uh,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: I think you know, if you just look at the
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: trajectory of this issue, like it is moving away from
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: We're at a point now where where it's becoming less
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: popular to be pro sell off public lands, right because
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: people are like calling truth to the bullshit. Man. Oh yeah,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: they pulled this stuff for a long time, but just
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: people really like woken up to it. Yeah, but now
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: it's becoming issue. It hasn't gone away. I think the
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: folks are pushing has become smarter, more savvy, and they're
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: really pushing this like death of a thousand cuts of
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: public land management. Right. So it's about all right, we're
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: not gonna get there, we're not gonna get the big prize,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: so let's focus on all these other things that can
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: undercut the idea of public lands. It's like what animal
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: rights people due to hunters? Yeah, yeah, for sure, not
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: gonna get a law that there's no hunting, right. But
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: that's like what we probably could ban hunting lions with dogs, right, Yeah,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: we probably couldn't ban some like trapping. Right. So then
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: you got these bills where yeah, it's like bills like
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: uh um reboul laborador or my my congressman has one
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: called Self Sufficient Community Lands Act. It's like up to
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: four million acres of land in any state can be
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: given to it stays public according to the bill. Um,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: but there are like it waves all conservation environmental laws
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: and gives decision making it authority like four people like
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: a county commissioner because somebody from them logging the mining industry,
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: and somebody from the timber industry, and like a motorized
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: recreation person. So in some ways it's you know, I
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: feel that I almost view that as like more insulting. Um.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: So you're like, oh no, we're gonna keep it public,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: but like you have no saying anymore. Motion multiple used
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: to like single use, but this is the same one
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: where the if in the event of a major catastrophe,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: the fed federal government pay us for it. So the people,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, so yeah, we still pay it for like
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: firefighting and everything. So we're like your tax dollars still
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: like footing the bill for like roads, infrastructure and everything.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: So how does that But isn't that what what kind
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: of like what wound up happening with Wyoming? Whereas Wyoming
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: looked at this idea, like because because of the what's
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: being discussed, the state of Wyoming took a look at
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: like what would it mean for us if we were
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: to assume management of the federal land that they're talking about,
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: And they looked at just the firefighting budget alone and decided,
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: you know what, I think we're gonna pass on this
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: one bankrupt And he's I mean a big fire would
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: wipe us out. So yeah, like put the like financial terms, like, uh,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: State of Idaho last this is not loud. This last year,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: the year before budget like fifty million dollars for the
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: state to fight fire. Right, we had one fire in
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: North Idaho called the Camera Complex that like doubled it
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: was at least doubled the amount of money the state
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: had had budgeted. Now when the state like what do
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: you do then? Right, it's like, oh, well the fire
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: was fifty we budget a fifty million dollars. That's much
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: we got and it costs a hundred million dollars. You
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: can't spend more than you have in a state, right,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: Constitutions require you to balance your budget, so you either
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: got to like we always had these emergency school closings
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: and budget. Yeah, it's like there's no there's no buffer,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: there's no hard times buffer. Right. So, like, imagine if
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: like the state had a bunch of public land up there.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: You know, they got a couple of options. One that
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: can start taking money from teachers to pay for firefighting costs, right,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: that's gonna be a real popular move for a politician.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: Or you can start selling some land to pay for
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: your costs. And I think, how well do you understand
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: the Elliott State forest thing, because there's a nice concrete
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: example that people might understand. I understand it like casually.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not super tuned into the Elliott. I mean I
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: know what's going on, but I wouldn't call myself like
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: a subject matter expert in the Elliott. I mean, what
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: do you have there? I can try and explain it.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of a good point where you
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: stay like, here's a piece of ground that the state
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: held and they had reason why they had to dump it. Yeah,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: so the state Elliott state for us like eight two
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: thousand acres roughly in Oregon. UM. It's a piece of
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: ground owned by the state UM and they it has
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: been for various reasons, not making as much money as
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: the state claims it needs to make. And so they
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: are in a position right now trying to sell it
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: off because for no other reason than their constitution mandates
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: that they maximize revenue generation off state ground and this
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: particular piece of ground and I don't know, I don't
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: understand why is not. They don't feel some politicians feel
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: like it is not maximizing revenue for the beneficiaries for
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: the school trust, so they're looking at selling it off
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: before that very reason. It's got people real riled up
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: because a lot of people like to use it for
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: recreationally used hunters, fishermen, I guess, and uh whatever else
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: people do in public land. Hula hoo. It's just but
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: it's still like, it's still like weirdly shortsighted and frivolous
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: when people look at a piece of ground and they
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: go like, well, what's it doing for me right now? Yeah?
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: I know, because we'll sell it and get like a
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: one time payment. I was like, oh, is your state
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: like set to cease to exist at some point in
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: time in the future. The other the other interesting things
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: we found. So we did some We did some digging
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: around in Idaho looking at state land sales and most constitutions.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: Our mind in Idaho two we have there's a cap
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: on when the when the people that formed our state,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: they're like, we're gonna cap the amount of land any
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: one person can buy. Any state land had a hundred
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: three acres and hundred sixty acres back to on our
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: stand that so the folks when they when they formed
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: state of Idaho, they were worried about land barns because
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: the air of the land barn right, timber barons were
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: sort of gobbling up all the land. And so like
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: a single individual who owns vast portions of a certain state,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: that winds up having undue influence on all aspects of
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: the state. And the folks they also when they're like, well,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: we're getting these state parcels from the federal government, but
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: they're meant to benefit schools. What we don't want is
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: some like politician who's in the pocket of like at
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: the time it was a timber industry who was in
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: the pocket of the timber industry to uh decide that
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: it's a good idea to liquidate all these lands, and
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: then you have, you know, the one guy that can
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: afford it coming in and like buying up all the land.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: So they were trying to prevent mass divestiture of state lands,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: so they put these caps on how much land could
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: be sold in any one year in any one individual
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: or business right. And so then I got curious, so
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: I started looking around a little bit and to see
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: whether or not that cap had been violated, because I noticed,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: like a long time ago, companies like Boys Boys of
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: cass Gate and Pilot Chimber Company had bought like tens
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: of thousands of acres of state land, and I was like, huh,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: you can only buy like twenty acres of state land.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: So I started it in the records and just kind
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: of got a curiosity looking, and we found what appeared
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: to be um a fairly serious set of constitutional violations
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: outdas history of people exceeding that captive going back how
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: far and to like the early nineteen hundreds, from like
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: an early nine hundreds to like early seventies, so like
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: long period of time. Most of it happened a long
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: time ago but um, and it's real hard to prove.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: But we you know, I spent months going over this
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: data working with the state to say, am I reading
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: this correctly? Like tell me I'm wrong. Surely you haven't
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: violated the constitution your own constitution and selling more state
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: land and the constitution allows you to do. And they
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: didn't have an explanation. So eventually we kind of went
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: public with some of this stuff and the state is
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: now the State of Idaho is has hired an independent auditor.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: Let's go back and see whether or not the Landboard
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: of the state is violated the state constitution in terms
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: of state lands and how many instances three three hundred separate,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: separate instances, and what would happen is it's really interesting
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: you see, like uh, it's you like um uh, several individuals,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: private individuals all dating the same Satan deeding land to
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: the same company, like on the same day. So we
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: think was happening. My hunch totally, they're sending out like
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: somebody would be like, oh, we're gonna bring it. They'll
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: they'll you know, put it out in the paper higher
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: like twenty people go have them go out by land
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: and then wait a little bit and then have them
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: deed it back to you and that and that is like,
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: it's illegal for sure, but it's hard to It would
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: have been hard at the time to enforce or know
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: that it it was happening. Um, I imagine, but certainly in
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies they should have been able to figure
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: that out. So do you have any sense with the
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: stuff you found? Um, do you have any sense is
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: there will there be any real repercussions from this or
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: wuld it just be more of a soul searching fact
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: finding mission that That's yeah, that's kind of the question.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: Did you are right now? Um? Ultimately, the buck stops
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: with our landboard, which is made up a comprise of
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: our governor, our attorney general, and uh a couple of
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: folks superintendent public schools. I don't know what the ramifications
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: would be. I asked a couple lawyers that most of
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: these transactions happened with folks that are no longer on
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: the landboard. A lot of them are no longer with us,
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: So I don't know the real question is whether or
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: not those people that bought land illegally. Essentially, if you
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: think about it, if it was if these two do
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: turn out to be constitutional violations. There's no statute of
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: limitations on a constitutional violation, right, So if you bought
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: state land, you know, uh illegally violate the constitution, does
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: that land then have to go back to the state.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: That's where I could get really interesting, real fast. And
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: I don't have any interest in like pushing that. Like
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: my whole angle on this is just like, hey, if
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: you think you can trust the state to not sell
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: your public land and follow the law, like here's three
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: d cases where we're not so sure they even could
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: follow then their own constitution. And it's not a unique case.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is not something that thinks unique to
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: Idaho either, So it's something to keep Anyone's just done
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: any digging like that in mont in or not yet,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: but people are on it. So it's it's a lot
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: of work. I mean, this is I mean, this is
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of research and a lot of digging around
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: in old records that it takes a long time. So
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: but I think people are going to start uncovering a
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: lot of stuff. And this is what I mean. It's
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: like the history of you know, lands in general in
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: the West is not any surprise. It's a tale of corruption. Right,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: people are always trying to get their hands on more
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: land and um and that's you know, to me, one
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: of the greatest things about having our public lands stay
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: public is you don't have to worry about like you know,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: Robert Baron is trying to come in and gobble up
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: all the resources like we all own it. Right now,
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: it's working, Okay, you know it's not perfect, not a
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: perfect system. But if you think that you're going to
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: give it to the states transferred to them and that
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: that's just you know, everything's gonna be just the same.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: I want to think twice and just look at the
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: data and the facts. What do you think about all that? Cali,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: I'm constantly amazed by all this stuff that Rabil Elaborator are.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: Thing that should be plenty of an eye opening awakening
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: for everybody in the US. Is a ground that we
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: all own. Uh, this guy is proposing that we seed
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: a chunk of it to the state of Idaho. They
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: can do whatever they want with it right now that
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: they may say, you know, we can go out there
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: and play on it, but really it's for resource extraction.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: But if things don't go well and there's some major catastrophe,
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: everybody in the nation can pay for it. Yeah, it's like,
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: oh gosh, if there's something you know that we're not
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: willing to pay for, then the Feds will come in
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: and pay for it. So if you're in you know,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: New Jersey right now, that's your land to play on.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: But if this were to happen, you probably won't get
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: to be able to play on it, but you're damn
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: sure gonna be able to pay for it through your taxes.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: It's an amazing thing. Can I talk about Zinky real
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: quick too? I think that's interesting. So Zinky Ford voted
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: for that bill as a congressman, and he got absolutely
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: hammered by it by you, some of you folks in Montana. Um,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not Montana. No, I'm looking at yo, Callahan. He
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: still claimed Montana's your I certainly don't give up the
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: phone number no I got. I got a Montana phone
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: over from I had one of the first phone cell
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: phones that I think everyone was produced hard to get
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: rid of. I never changed my phone. I don't like
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: change my email address. Someone was recently trying to give
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: me a change my email address, Like, yeah, it's a
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: lot of work. Yeah, anyhow, So yeah, so, um, I
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: don't know if you want to talk about zinc at all,
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: but like that's really interesting tie to kind of having
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: like Zinki a secretary of interier guy who has a
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: fairly st body record on this issue. Um, I don't
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: think people will really under than like how spotty it
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: is if you go looking back, you mean you mean spotty,
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: and that since since assuming his position now he's articulated
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: a certain viewpoint and you feel that his past record
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: doesn't not reflective. Here's what I think. I think you
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: should evaluate politicians not just politicians. Is a good rule
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: for evaluating people in general. But I'm ready evaluate people
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: by what they do, not what they say. Right, So
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: if you say that, you know, like Ryan Zinkey's got
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: he's been saying the right thing, support keeping public bans public.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: But if you look at how we voted, different story
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: a little bit right, So he voted for this bill
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: to give four million acres in each state to the states. Um, now,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: people can change. I want to give him credit. I
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: want positions change and sort of their mandates change and
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: they get appointed to carry out different missions. Correct, So
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: like I want to give him, like he has an
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: opportunity to prove himself. But I'm just saying, if you
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: look at what he's done versus what he said, I'm
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: not there yet where I'm like, no, I don'd understand
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: where you're coming from. Man, It's like I want to
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: believe him. I'm gonna say, I'm just trying to I'm
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: trying to state very optimistic. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: place to be. I've been doing this too long, man,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: You've lost all all that got beat out of here, right,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: so so so break it down there. He voted for
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: this transferred idahole. No, it was. The bill applies to
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: all states. It's for million acres in any state that
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: wants to do it. Basically, the way that bill reads,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: it's like if you have a governor in a state
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: that has public land, and that governor decides, yes, I
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: want up to four million acres of land, he gets
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: to choose that. It's totally the government. Can we do
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: a side note here? And I don't know if you okay,
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: why is there no push for land transfer in the
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: eastern US? Is it just because because if you look
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: at the Upper Great Lake States, for instance, have a
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: tremendous amount of national force land. It came about a
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: different way, like so much to those national forests in
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: the east, like in my home state law of the
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: National Forests, rather than sort of just like by default
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: belonging to the federal government. All along it was the
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: federal government was buying up chunks of land. It was
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: basically being forfeited by homestead or individuals. So people were
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: getting land defaulting on debt right there, They're like applying
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: for homestead lands, farm parcels. And then economic hard times
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: came about, or all the giant fires that just destroyed
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: the upper Great Legs after the logging boom, people were
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: walking away from land, and the federal garment was bailing
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: people out by basically acquiring it, just burned over scarred land,
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: acquiring it for you know, fractions of its what it
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: would be its value today. And they built up they
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: would designate these they would drop these chunks of ground
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: and be like, hey, we're gonna make this. Everything in
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: here can become part of this national forest. As it
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: comes up for say no one wants it, or if
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: it's abandoned and just has back taxes will assume it
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: and buy it up. And they started patching together these
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: patchwork national forests that that I grew up, you know,
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: point eight miles from one. UM. But why is there
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: never any rhetoric there? There is? Actually like now they'd
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: be like, you know what, no, let's get rid of
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: it there. So there have been so seventeen states have
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: introduced what we would I would characterize anti public lands bills. UM.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: So you know that includes like Tennessee. I think, uh,
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: I have to have a listen from me. With Tennessee.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say like Georgia and like South
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: Carolina some of these co states, um, but you don't.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: It's certainly Western centric issue because that's where most of
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: the public lands in America are located. How also, link
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: the folks that are pushing this issue, they want to
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: they want to compartmentalize that. They want to keep keep
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: it a Western issue because I think that's where folks
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: have the most frustration with federal government, and they want
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: to kind of keep Eastern politicians out of it, like,
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: this is not your issue. This is our issue out here.
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: So I don't want to hear your opinion, you know
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: you guys and East even though they all own it, right,
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: it's everybody's land. It's to the political advantage, I think,
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: to the folks pushing at the rob bishops of the
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: world to keep it sort of um, keep it a
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: Western focused issue. I also think my theory too, is
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: that folks in the East and the West, I don't
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: think they have the level of frustration maybe anger that
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: a lot of folks out west too with public lands,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: just because it's not I don't know Michigan per se,
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: but like you don't have I don't know if many
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: counties in like Midwest and the East where public land
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: counts for like sixty of the of the land of
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: the county. So like the tax base issue, that's a
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: real issue too, you know on the West, like having
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: enough land to be able to uh charge income tax
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: on to pay for teachers, you know, just county services, roads,
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So so there's all these things
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: kind of um. And I also think too that like
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: folks in the East and the Midwest US like because
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: they don't have the much public land, they also like
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: cherish it a little bit more too. I think if
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: you watch Harder Fight, yeah, yeah, I think so. I
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: think so for sure, it's like why would you want
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: to get rid of that? Like in place I take
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: my family camping once a year, kind of like that
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: place you know, um where I was out eating out
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: in the West. It's like, you know, you almost like
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: most people just aren't aware that public land is just
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: it's everywhere around you, so you just take it for granted,
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: Like people don't. I would. I think you probably wouldn't
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: be surprised. But I am often continually surprised that people
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: are not aware that they might be surrounded by public land.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: They might go camping on all the time, fishing, hiking,
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: parked their car, or shoot their gun or whatever, and
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: they just don't even think that's public land. Um, They're
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: just like I just go and use it. That's how
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: we perceived it. We grew up around a lot of
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: public land, and we were aware of it. We thought
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: it fell from the like it was like it fell
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: from the sky manna from heaven. Dude. We had no
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: like notion that it was a thing people like fought for.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah I didn't, And I talked about and tried to
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: create this system that was like this great repudiation of
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: European oppression and then aristocracy. No, he saw it was
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: like a bunch of she go and shoot guns on
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: him right around. Yeah, because on a small levels, like
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: your dad was like, guys, here's the deal. He thought,
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: this is why we're going out. He thought it fell
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: from outer space too. It just was it just what
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: it always was that it was, Yeah, exactly. It's like
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It goes back to that thing, like
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: people don't realize who who gave him a benefit, although
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: I argue most people now seemed to be that are
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: in the public lands world seemed to be aware that
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: tell you Roosevelt is large responsible for giving given public
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: lands to us, but they do know again, who's trying
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: to take that away from him? So everybody knows who
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: Jason Chafitz is now, right, Yeah, nobody know who he was. No, No,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: he's like I'm famous now outside of his own state.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: But that I would like to, like, I would really
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: like to like take a just drive around, like have
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: a burger with Bishop Rob Bishop chaf Jason, because I
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: was like, I honestly want to know, Like I honestly
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: I'm like, what like if you look at a mountain,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: if you look at like a mountain is the non
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: developed non road, does it make you angry? Like do
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: you hate it, like I hate that mountain. I wish
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: it had like his, which is I think they do
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: hate the fact that it's not producing more at the
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: moment for the guys that give them money. Well for
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: I think yet, well yes, but I think they pitch
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: it as in like, well everybody that lives here. I
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: don't know how they would designate like who gets it
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: to get their chunk right, It's like if you live
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: in the county or the state or whatever. But they're
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: just like, well, it's not producing anything. If we did
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: something with it, then we could just like hand out
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: this money or hand out jobs, you know. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: I'm not not even to think that they look at
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: a mountain and hate it, Like I know that that's
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: not true, But I just like wonder, like what, like
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: what is it? You know, what is it? Because I
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: I like, I used to view the world more like
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: there's like evil people and not evil people, But then
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: I realized that it's not really a very constructive, realistic
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: way of viewing it. It's actually a lot more complicated
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: than that. So but I can't know, like without knowing them,
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: without hanging out with him, I can't know, uh, hanging
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: out with so you learn a lot about him in
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: a hurry. Yeah, well, their temperament is going on like
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: a three day backpacking hunt. I don't know if they'd
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: make it, But rumor, I love this shoot. I heard
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: a dog when he when he pulled his piece of legislation,
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: and it was him with a hunting dog. I heard
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: a rumor. Not like I said, I heard a rumor
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: about that dog. I heard a rumor about that dog.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: Let your imagination go where it will. The dog came out. No,
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: I heard a rumor about that dog. I'm not gonna
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: share because it's here safe. I will tell you this. Like,
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time with elected officials and
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: and I sort of gave up on like caring about
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: like their motivations. They just have a lot of a lot.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: Can you say that because I want to know? Like
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: I don't. I just don't think, like I'm never going
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: to accept they're like I was, like good people who
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: care about who love their children, care about their state, patriotic, okay,
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: want the best for for their country. I'm making this assumption.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: So what is it? Why do you hate that ship's
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: so bad? I think you know it's just it's something.
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: They hate it. I think it's just not a priority
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: for them, and they just they have a particular worldview
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: that is very dogmatic. Like if you if you spend
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: I can say this, I don't think Labor is going
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: to listen to your podcast. Maybe he's your biggest fan,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: but let's just assume Raoul. I've spend enough time with
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: Raoul to know that ra Woul has a view of
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: the world that is like, this is the way it is.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: I don't like, I don't care what you think. I
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: don't care what you think. I have my beliefs and
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: like you're wrong, and like I'm right, I don't just
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: that's where that's where it starts. And in so like
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: it's hard if you try, I mean you could. You
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: could spend so much time trying to understand where these
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: guys come from, and it would drive you nuts because
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: the folks that are really I know, I'm not saying
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: Rob Bishop is that way, but I'm saying some of
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: these folks like they come out of from a very
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: black and white view of the world and there isn't
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: room for like, oh, maybe you've got a point there.
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: It's like, no, you're wrong. Steve let me tell you
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: why you're wrong. That mountain right there should be doing
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: more than it's only just sitting there doing nobody any
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: favors up there, you know, giving me the stink guy
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: when we could put a theme park up there, and
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: I think that's better and you're wrong, and I'm right, yeah,
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: because you could have a worldview, you could have a
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: national view that the government is meant to facility, not
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: to stand, not to impede, but it is meant to
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: facilitate and provide a safe environment for business transactions, and
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: to have a guy be like, hey, man, I can
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: come out. I created a hundred jobs for the next
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: three years. I'm gonna gouge that motherfucker out and pull
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: some minerals out of there. I'm ready to write checks.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: And there's someone who would be like, well, it ain't
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: doing nothing. This could put it to use. And my
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: thing I always feel is like oftentimes it becomes a
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: very shortsighted thing. Yeah, for sure, someone says to me, yeah,
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: I noticed you not using that toolbox right now. I'll
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: give you five bucks that toolbox right now. I'm like
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: sold because right now I'm not using that toolbox. And
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: the more i'm like God, damn my toolboxing, my toolbox
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: in the whole damn system. This is an altruistic view,
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: but this is certainly the way I was explained to me,
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: you know on my first government class, when I said,
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: we tyke because these people are there, you know, kind
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: of damn their opinions to a certain degree. They're there
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: to represent the people within their district, and so everybody
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: within that district better want to gouge the ship out
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: of that mountain to or at least the majority, and
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: they can take their opinions what they say to the
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: buddies behind closed doors and sticking up their butt. But
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: there's also like the donor factor because like you remember,
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: this is a very small thing, but it kind of
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: made a national thing where where when so so when uh,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: well Michael Bloomberg left left his he gave up his
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: you know, was done. Turned out on being the mayor
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: of New York. A guy came in the name build
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: a Blasio and became the mayor of New York. One
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: of the first things build the Blasio does. We talked
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: about this yesterday. When the first thing to build the
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: Blasio does is he comes out and says, from now on,
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: no horse, You can't give horse rides in Central Park.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: One of the first things he did, Now, do you
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: think anyone in New York, if you were to poll
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: the eight million or third team or whatever the hell
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: number of people live in New York gives a ship
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: like they look at a lot of horses. Got the job.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: He's well fed, he's got like a great stable, he's
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: got great veterinarian care. Right was seen like it seems
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: to me like if you're gonna be a horse, that's
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: not a bad horse to be so. But one of
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: the first things he does is like, can't have horse
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: rides in central parks? Mean for the horses? Did you
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: know that that was some guy gave that guy some
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: money when he was running and gave him some back
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: and gave him some support. And that was the deal
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: they made. There's a did not come from public opinion,
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: you know, they came A million people called or emailed
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: and said those horses for little kids riding. There's a
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: guy with like Allama Allama carrier business who's like paying
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: him under the tables. Isn't like it's not always it's
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: not always that. This is the rising tide of popular sentiment.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: It sometimes is you make arrangements, and it takes money
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: to win an elected office in this country. You make
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: arrangements with people and then you need to fulfill and
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: make certain deals, right. And that's just it's not like, oh,
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: because my constituents are all when they look at all
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: the problems in New York, the thing that they've isolated
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: as the real pressing issue is horse rides in Central Park.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: We fix. It's just it. It's like a thing. He's like, yeah, okay, okay, okay,
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: I'll do something about it, but you know, you gotta
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: do something for me. That was a third leg was
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: political stool to It's like education, healthcare and horses in
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: Central Part and making yeah, no, like for sure, like
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: money matters. I mean, I guess, I guess. Let me
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: just say this way, like I I learned doing this work,
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: like I could spend an inorder amount of time trying
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: to understand like the motivation of some politicians. Some politicians,
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: I should say, are very open to listening understanding, some
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: are not, and the ones I feel like are not.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: Like I don't feel like it's a productive use of
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: my time to invest in understanding why. I just view
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: it as like this is where they're at and this
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: is what we do. You think there's no moving them
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: some of them, No, absolutely not, And like I'm looking
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: at me like it was like it's got cynical man.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: No no, no, no, it's interesting. It's interesting. So you
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: don't think because because if you're gonna do, I think,
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: if you're gonna persuade, you know what. I think a
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: part of persuading is being don articulate to them their viewpoint.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: So I think what will persuade them is if they
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: see people with similar opinions of them starting to get
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: losing office. That will catch your attention real fast, because
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: that is what you know if you're and then speaking
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: general terms. But it's like you start kicking guys out
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: of office you're anti public lands because of their anti
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: their public land stands. Oh yeah, you better you better
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: watch people just starting to change your opinion real fast.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: But you try and like just convinced them on the merits.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: Some people can be persuaded, you know. I'm not saying
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: it can't, but there are some folks. So I think
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: I think Raoul was one of them. Like if you
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: spend any time with the guy, you'll know what I mean, like,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: you're not going to persuade the guy on your opinion.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: He doesn't. Politicians do get their opinions changed, because just
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: look at we're a hundred days into the Trump administration.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: He felt that Hillary Clinton should be prosecuted, now feels
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: she should not be prosecuted. He felt that we should
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: disalign with NATO, now feels that it's a powerful ally
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: of ours. He thought that enhanced torture or enhanced interrogation
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: techniques were a really good idea, campaigned on it, and
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: then turn around and said that based on further analysis
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: and conversations he's had with experts in the intelligence community,
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: he feels that it might not be the best strategy
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: to extract information from people. That's not because he sees
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: presidents losing elections. Is because he's having conversations with people
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: who are saying, here's all I'm looking at it. Well,
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: they're not all like people are not change their minds absolutely,
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: but they're not all the same either. They're what motivates
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: him is not all the same. I could I think
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: you can make an argument that like someone like Donald Trump,
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: like he can um he can beat influence on some issues,
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: just like everybody, but he has a different way of
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: making up his mind than others. Now, someone like Raoul,
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: just an example like Raoul can change his mind. But
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: I have seen some people I'm not gonna name names
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: r companies, but I have some people that I would
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: consider very much a part of his base, who have
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: a lot of money and a lot of power, unable
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: to move him on issues, very simple issues, because he's like, no,
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: this is what I believe. Yes, and they're big donors
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: and they have so you're saying, not even change in
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: his mind for wealthy people who have influence. Yeah, there's
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: just one. There's an industry. Uh um, Yeah, I probably
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: shouldn't even say toys, you guess, like Wull They're like, hey,
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: we got this issue and we want you to like
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: vote our way. And I only know because I'm friends
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: with this guy in this industry and they are very
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: powerful in the state of Idaho, most powerful industries and
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: you know, rebels like I don't really believe in that. Sorry, Yeah,
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: and that's not I'm not saying that's indicative of like
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: he's unique, but they are not. He's not alone. Almost
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: makes me almost makes me respect him, respect that aspect
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: so yeah, I like that's what you're saying. I like
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: people who It's like, there's two kinds of people, just people.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: I think you can break everybody down into two groups,
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: just people who don't know. It's like, it's like I
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 1: like the guy who can who can hear about something
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: and be like, yeah, that's a good damn point. I
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: changed my mind. I also like the guy who's like, uh, never,
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: I know what I know for sure. Yeah. I kind
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: of like that guy. Yeah yeah, no. So I'm not
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: saying they can't be changed. They can't mind can't be changed.
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is like, if I've got time,
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: if I'm working on an issue and I'm like re
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: wolves on one side and I got I'm like working
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: on the side over here, Like I can invest time
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out the way his mind works, or
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: I can just spend time trying to win. And I'd
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: rather spend my time trying to win. I know you're
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: a curious guy. So you're like, now, I don't want
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: to interrupt anymore. Just I want you to lay out
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: here approach. But why you don't care? Like why no,
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: I know, I want you lay out your approach about
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: why the motivations don't matter. Well, they do, but this
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: is just like you're you're just like my personal opinion
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: of like if you're talking about motivations for public lands,
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: you know what you're saying. No, it's like continue with
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: your thoughts that that you tried to bring up twenty
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: minutes ago, that at a point I don't you're saying
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what he thinks when he looks at
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: a piece of undeveloped ground. Yeah, it's just like that's
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: his opinion, and there are ways to change his opinion.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: But like if I am, let's say, because we you know,
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: run a campaign that's all over the country, right, and
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: we have we're trying to, let's say, try and get
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: ex congressman to vote a certain way at a certain
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: bill um he might have. We know his opinion, we
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: know his voting record, we know what he said in
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: the public and so I don't invest a lot of
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: time into think you to worrying about what he thinks.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: I will get a base if I know he's a
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: guy who cares what other people think. That's important to
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: know because that influences my strategy. If I know that
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: he can't be influenced by you know, his his base
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: or his big donors. Like that's also important to know.
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: And if I realize that, like a guy like rat Woul,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: like no one's gonna get to him. The only way
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: you're gonna get to him is with like you know,
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: hardball politics, it's like, great, that will influence how we
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: approach him. Um, a guy like Chay Fits, who I
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: would argue does care what people think about him a lot.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: It tells me a lot about how I'm an approach
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: guy like that too. Um. It doesn't care much for
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: dogs or good camo. We also know that, right. Uh
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: So that's what I'm saying. It's like, it's not that
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, but I also just like, you know,
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: you could just invest endless amount of time trying to
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: understand why people like think a certain way, and at
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, like, um, I think we
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: should all. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have conversations about
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: like why public about public lands and try and understand
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: each other. That's great. Um, but you know, this public
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: lands issue is a u in many ways. I do
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: think it's a war over like this birthright that we've
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: been given and when you're in a war side situation. Man,
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: you gotta like fight fire with fire sometimes, and that's
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: how you're gonna, you know, win on this issue. So
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: I know that sounds super cynical in some ways out loud.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm like, man, yeah, because I think that,
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: like people have guiding principles. Now, Like I spent a
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: lot of my life, um, studying, practicing, uh, you know, rhetoric. Okay,
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: So just just a native interest in rhetoric? Okay, How
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: how do people give persuasive arguments and be persuaded? Okay,
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of things. There's a lot of issues
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: in my life that I have moved on degrees on
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: same here. Yeah, but I'm telling you, um, when I like,
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: you have guiding principles, okay, and a guiding principal mine, Like,
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: I think a litmus test for me when I look
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: at an issue is I'm always gonna ask myself, Like
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask myself what's uh on land issues, wildlife issues.
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: I'm always ask myself, like what's best for hunters, fishermen
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: and wildlife m and public lands? Like what's best for
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: this entire package? And I'm gonna weigh that out and
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: ask that question. That's gonna be my guiding thing. I
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: cannot picture someone coming up and and I just don't
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: think there's an argument out there that would pull me
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: away from that. Yeah, but you gotta understand too, like
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: you're a you put more thought into how you approach
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: issues than most Americans. I would say people react, tend
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: tend to react to issues emotionally, not logically right, So
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: think of, um, how people react to just to bring
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: up a touchy subject that we talked about last night, wolves,
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: people react to wolves with an emotional response like somewhere right.
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: And the same thing is true with politics. So we
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't think we're gonna win on this
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: public lands issue with like a logical argument like we
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: need to articulate those we need to have an emotional
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: never gonna be like, oh, yeah, what was I What
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: was I talking about? I didn't realize that point. Thank
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: you for pointing it out, Like I changed my mind.
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: Let me go, I'm gonna I'll be back at five.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna withdraw some legislation. Talked about it all that long,
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: and I didn't see that particular graph. Yeah, and then
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: and I feel like that's a shortcoming of like this
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: is a shortcoming of like educated folks in general. It's
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: like we we assume a worldview that's like if we
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: could just talk some sense to these people, they'll get it.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: Like if I, if Ryan and I could just sit
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: across the table and have a beer and just talk
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: it through, like you're gonna come along and see why
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: I'm right eventually here. And it's like you need an
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: emotional like we need to like you, there needs to
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: be a response to like this whole Bundy and not
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: to go down a dark path, but like the Bunny situations,
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: like people were angry, like right there, like pounding the table.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: I am piste off at this situation. Right, that's why
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: they the folks went out to mount here right wrong
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: or indifferent? They felt a certain way, and you can't
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: tell them their their feelings are wrong. Right. That's how
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: I think where we need to approach this public lands issues.
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: You need to strike an emotional cord with people, help
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: them understand emotionally why this matters to them. Um because
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, like that is how
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: because think about it this way too again, It's like
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: public lands have existed so far because theoretically, the American
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: public want them to exist. They will only continue existing
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: into the future to the extent that the American public
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: like them, understand them, appreciate them, and are willing to
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: stand up to fight for them when they're under attack
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: like they are. Now. That is a challenge we have
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: because I can tell you there is a shocking amount
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: of the population that has no idea what public lands are.
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: And if they don't know what they are, why are
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: you going to stand up and protect them when they're threatened?
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: You're not. You should be like, man, I don't even
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: know what those are. Whatever, something going on in the West.
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: You know, I've got my kids to deal with right now. Um,
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: so there has to be you know, again, this is
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: like a bigger picture like foot level. But that's how
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: we've got to approach this public LANs issue. We're gonna
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: went on the long run, and I think it's important
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: to remember it was. It was contentious and divisive at
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: the time. Oh god, the national fourth system. There was
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: like like what what When Ted Roosevelt did like one
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: of his biggest single creations of national forest land, there
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: was legislation coming that was gonna ban him from doing
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: it again, and he knew he couldn't defeat it. He
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: didn't have the votes. He couldn't vetoks. He didn't have
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: the votes to override or they were going to override
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: the veto. He had till midnight on some night. So
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: he sits down, I think, with Gifford Pinchot and some others,
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: and they drew up. Was called the Midnight Forest because
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: they were until midnight declares what do you make like
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: seventeen forests or something forces for service system we know
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: today millions of acres of land. Finalizes that and in
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 1: signs of Bill staying he'll never do it again, crafty
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: move the Midnight Forest. It's a good story if you
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: read the Big Burn, phenomenal story. No, I haven't read
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: that Big Burn. That's good. You read that book about
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: North side of forests and sort of creation the forest
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: service system. Uh, Timmygan is not paying me to plug
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: his book, by the way, but it's a good read
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: and if you read it. We have the politics at
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: the time. You could you could transfer that that time
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: in the early nineteen early so like right now, it's
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: like people are upset about the way you know, land
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: has managed and like people are fighting over resource. It's
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: like it's like going back in time, but it's like
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: exactly the same. But here's my question, why is it
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: so Roosevelt did that? People were pissed? Okay, business interests
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: were all the same, all the same business address, mining, industry, logging, industry. Um.
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 1: Then something happens and we go and carve his image
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: into a giant mountain that gets visited by millions of
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: people every summer. And he has, you know, twenty one
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: whatever number of biographies written about him by some of
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: the most influential historians. If you poll Americans, he's among
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: the top five or top seven most popular presidents of
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: all time. We have kind of decided that that was
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 1: a good move, right. You don't just get your face
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: carved in the damn mountain for nothing. It was this
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: hallmark thing. So we as a nation sit back and
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 1: go some bitch. He was fortunary, visionary, what a trip,
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: what a phenomenal, Like who was this guy? Let's celebrate
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: him and write books about him for a long time,
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: and then uh, we'll start a bunch of ships to
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: undo what he did, Like, how can we occupy both
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 1: of these spaces as an as a nation? I don't know.
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: Every politician in the country would love to be favorably
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 1: compared to Roosevelt. Oh yeah, it's real popular. That's that's
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: what I hear. Is Inky said that all the time.
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: I'm tr Republican's popular. See let's see it, man, Yeah,
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: prove it, let's see it. Yeah. I don't know. That's
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: a good question, dude. It's just it's like, it's like
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 1: it boggles my mind. Well, you get, you get rewarded.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: I think it's a politician for like creating things. Um right,
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: it's like nobody. You don't hear many people say they
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: regret the National park system, right, I don't sore many
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: people like sitting around the coffee table. It's like, god damnit,
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: because you think one right here, there should be a
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: thing called the yellow Stone Supertag. I'm on board this
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 1: stag and it's a lottery draw just for tourists or
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: for animals. No, the yell Stone super Tag Big Game
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: on and then no one could go there at all
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: except for the super Tag holder. You see it's five six,
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: You do a drawing, you get the Yellowstone super Tag
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: Big Game Tag. That's what I think they'll be doing
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: it that part. I can get behind that. You w
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 1: work on that one. Let's take that and see how
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: that happened in a hot spring. And I did call in.
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: I called it a couple of a couple of turkeys
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 1: and Zion a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, just with
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: my mouth, I can actually call m and they they've
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 1: never heard the crack of a shotgun. No, they were
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: pretty tan actually, but I mean they were wild, but
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: they were kind of same. But you know, we're just
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: talking about Yahny, tell about where you're without giving away
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: to me details, explain the the place you're just hunting
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 1: turkeys and sort of the weird the weird collection of
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: critters sharing the ground where you're just hunting turkeys. Yeah,
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: we're getting ready in the mud room of a Fellas cabin,
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: putting our gear on, and uh, he started doing out
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 1: bear spray. I'm like, what turkey on? You, dumb? We're like,
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: I'm like looking at across the green meadow and I
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: can see a few houses around and there's I'm guessing,
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know, three or four acres we might be hunting.
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: The then borders some public land we might be hunting,
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: and uh, horses around and He's like, yeah, right, now,
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: there's probably no place in the lower forty eight where
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: grizzly bears are thicker more. This guy's a grizzly bear researcher. Yeah, no,
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: he deals with you know, beare human interactions. Well, all right,
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: that's interesting. And then, uh, what was the other animal we'reaying, Oh,
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 1: they're Eastern turkeys looking at gobblers that are eating on
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: this h haystack that we couldn't hunt on. I had
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: to wait and come off. And we're lucky. We're like, man,
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: look at those tails. There's like no buff band at all,
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: there's just brown. And we started looking around and sure enough,
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: the Miriams didn't take and so they the next time
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: they try to transplant something did Easterns. So now you
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: got Eastern turkeys, grizzly bears, Eastern turkeys. They're getting preyed
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: on by links, links and grizzly bear couns. Yeah, there's
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: wolverines around around that country. I mean, we're on the
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: edge of the Bob we're looking at it. Um. You know,
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 1: you can look up in the mountains and see, you know,
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: the edge of the Bob Marshall Wilderness. Those turkeys like
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: bring me bags to Missouri. Man, I'd rather I'd rather
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: deal with that. I don't know, Man, I'd probably rather face.
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 1: I'd probably rather get away from coyotes to deal. If
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: I was a turkey, I'd rather be in Lynx Country,
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: Not that there's any shortage of coyotes in that area. Yeah.
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 1: Then to have the U, the um woodsman and good
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: old boys in Missouri chasing after you all, Yeah, that's
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: a different grade. That's a different grade of turkey hunter
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 1: down there, as far far as skill sets go. Many. Yeah,
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: but Montana turkey not to not to dig on the west,
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: but like hunt turkeys in the west, not hunting turkeys
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: in the east. No. And uh, it's like it's the
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: same thing with the squirrels and the rabbits outwest. People
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: are just like, what squirrel out west, he'll hide on
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: the side of the tree. The squirrel in the east
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: is like, no, no, no, no, no no, you hide on
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: top of a fat limb. You don't hide on the
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 1: side of a tree or at the very top of
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: the tree on the last bud that can support me. Yeah,
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: they're like only a squirrel who was high would hide here. Um. Yeah,
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: that's interesting about that spot. I think a guy a
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: few years ago scratched up by a grizz who was
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: hunting pheasants. But I would like to be a turkey
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: hunter who got scratched by a grizz hunting turks. I
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: uh years ago, was calling turkeys and heard a loud
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: exhale like this, like where I thought a dude had
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: come up and was like exhailing as he looked through
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: my backpack, and I my head around and face the
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: face of the bear who come into who was coming
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 1: into the call. But me turning my head around and
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: looking at him freaked him out more than he freaked
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: me out. Man, I think, are both of our hearts collected,
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of bear with it, black bear? But yeah,
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: calling turkeys, I've called in bobcats, coyotes, black bears. My
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: buddy Robert Abernathy was down in New Mexico calling turkeys.
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: He's a South Carolina hunter, but he's in New Mexico
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 1: calling turkeys. And it looks and he's on a two
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 1: track and belly crawling down the grass strip of the
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 1: two tracks a mountain lion whoa coming into the call.
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: I got a good story of scared bears that I
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 1: learned while I was up there a turkey hunting. This
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: fella does a lot of work with camera traps, and uh,
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: we're talking about grouse somehow. He says, yeah, you ever
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 1: had just a rough grouse? Just scared of Jesus out
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: of here? Right. It seems like it's almost like these
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: Montana rough grouse don't flush quite as hard as the
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: ones back in with content recent walk the edge edge
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: of just the forests and like, you know, ten yards aways,
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: like where the corn starts, and you'd be walking there
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 1: and just kind of chilling and daydreaming, and when those
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: grouse would take off at that edge, going into the forest,
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: and you would tell people, oh, yeah, that was a
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 1: bird that just flushed, and they'd be sitting there looking
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 1: at you, why die at their heart beating out, just
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: like that wasn't a bird And you tell how show
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: how big it is, and they're like, no, no, no,
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: it's like a herd of deer that just ran out.
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 1: Just a little bird that flew away, you know, but
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 1: I mean loud. Anyways, he's got a trap set up,
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 1: camera trap, yeah, camera trap, and grizzly bear parting around
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: there doing something at the rub tree or whatever he
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: had it pointed at um. I think it does a
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: lot of points him out a lot of rub trees
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: and they roughie flushes right next to that bear. And
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: he said that that grizzly bear turned inside out. Really,
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: I know how he feels, man, I know how he feels.
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: I got empathy for that bear. Uh all right, So
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: what else, brad Well I want to touch on here?
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what else? How So you're talking like,
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: how do we make like make it like a hot
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 1: but emotional issues so that people fight for right? And
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 1: you're saying how like back east people are like, yeah, whatever, man,
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 1: munch land out west, why do I care? So like, yeah,
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: why why should they care? They do care? Oh no,
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: they care. Someways they care more, it's just not in
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: the way should care. You've been paying for that ship
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 1: your entire life. When you write your tax or do
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: you get you pay federal taxes, so you should hang
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: on to it now and go use it. Well, I
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 1: mean the easy answered that question is like, yeah, like,
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: would you give up you know million acres land you owned? No,
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: you wouldn't give up even if you didn't know you
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: owned it, Like, you wouldn't give it up right. Um,
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: I just don't think it's it's not an issue that's
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: as present in their daily lives. It's not on the
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 1: news as much. It's not like just something they're as
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: aware of. It doesn't mean they don't care. They do care.
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: In fact, folks out of the east, Uh, the idea
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: that they would not have they do care about parks.
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: A lot of folks out to east care about the
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: parks more. Um So like the idea that Yellowstone like,
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: that's what resonation for them. It's like, wait minute, they
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: didn't take what Yellowstone or like Yosemite. That gets in
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: like real real riled up. Um. So it's not that
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: they don't care. I don't want to make it sound
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: like folks folks out that you must have a lot
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 1: of Eastern listeners here. So but that's that's one of
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: the ways. That's one of the ways. And uh and
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: I and I've identified and talk frequently about something I
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: called Yellowstone syndrome, which is like where people like everything
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: they understand about land management and wildlife management the politics
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 1: of wild life is all um framed around because they
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 1: hear so much about Yellowstone and it corrupts their view
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: of every other thing. I was just watching the nat
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: GEO video the other day and it was about elk
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: migrations and it's these elk. They're going, these elk that
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: spend a little bit of their time in the summer.
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: I've seen this. I think they're all way over in Cody,
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: right and they spend a little bit of their time
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 1: and Yellowstone And it's like about the Yellowstone Elk. I'm like, well,
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: why is it about the Cody Yolk? Yeah, I know.
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: It's like like everything becomes it's so, it's just that place.
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 1: It kind of like troubles me in the way that
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: so many people are just have a really hard time
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: understanding that that is a piece of ground laid into
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 1: a much larger piece of ground that that has serious
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: like management issues and wildlife issues that are not just
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 1: center on that little patch of space. People act like, oh,
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 1: if Yellowstone is okay, everything's okay. Yeah. So but like
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 1: here's the no I'm with you on that. Like the
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: flip side of that is like if your only experience
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 1: in public land is like, if you don't have any
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: experience of public land, it's really hard for you to
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 1: understand what it is and why do you care about it.
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 1: But if you've been to Yellowstone and you loved it,
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 1: so you're a city person um somewhere, and like you've
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 1: been to Yellowstone twice or whatever, you do the national
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: park circuit and that's your introduction to public lands, and
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: that's what makes you care about public lands and get
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: angry when somebody tries to take them away. I don't
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 1: think people make the jump. You don't think so. I
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: think they care about Oh that's interesting, that's your theory.
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: I feel that that's the case, and they think. You
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: think that's like people think like all wildlife is like
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 1: a theme park, like it is in Yellowstone, and that's
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 1: like I think. I think it contributes to the thing
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 1: I railed about all the time is people who look
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 1: at wildlife and they view it as a relic of
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: the past. It's like and it's like like a museum.
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 1: It's like yellow Stones, like a little museum where you
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: go to view this like this this remnant relic of
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 1: the past that doesn't really have any implications or pertained
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: to our lives today. Yeah. No, I think that's fair.
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 1: I think. But it also does give you at least
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: a baseline. Then if you were to like, you know,
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 1: be able to circle back around with those people and say, oh, yeah,
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: so you know you're familiar with this thing called Yellowstone,
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: Well guess what, there's also like other millions and on
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: the other side of the road and walk up and
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: it's all the same ship excep. There's no people there,
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 1: right right, yeah, Lee Metcalf. It's it's like your own
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 1: private Yellowstone, right yeah, at least at that point, and
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: they're kind of like, oh okay, really so because then
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: you don't got to ask a park range of permission
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: to look the other direction. Now, I'm gonna be a
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: heretic for saying this as someone works with Wilder and study,
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 1: but like, I'm not like, man, parks are wonderful, um,
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 1: really great, love the parks, but I'm not like someone
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: who when I'm picking a place to go, like picks
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: parks to go and I just like the whole like
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 1: theme park experience is just not my idea of an experience.
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: We were joking we were in Zion that we felt
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: like we should have been getting paid because we were
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 1: doing some climbing and the busses would drive by and
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: you could see us every day, you know, and the
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 1: buses would stop and like, I think tours should get
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 1: out and like take photos of us, Like across the canyon.
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 1: You were an attraction. We were in attraction and we
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 1: went buddy and now were like we should be getting
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 1: paid by the damn park Service to entertain these people
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 1: over here, because they're like looking for us to fall
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: down and die. You know, I feel like climber. Yeah,
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 1: so I was like waiting for like, I was like,
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: I know everyone down there is like I wonder if
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 1: they're gonna fall today. You know, this could be the
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: day everybody, I know, you might just fall. Everybody and
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 1: on your left over here, everybody, get out your cameras.
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: You might be lucky enough to see a climber falling
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 1: from the cliffs over here. So but yeah, they're different. Alright.
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 1: So yeah, concluders low elevation wilderness. Can you talk about
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: what this is your conclud wilderness? Like concluding question? Yeah, yeah,
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: I'm very interesting because in Colorado, especially where I spent
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of time living and uh hunting and enjoying
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: public lands, is like all that wilderness is you know,
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: high elevation. Um, certainly humans do enjoy in the wintertime,
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 1: but you know, not many animals up there in the winter,
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 1: and then they get you know, they come out of there,
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 1: and it's all that like winter range is uh private,
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: and it seems like it'd be nice if we could
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 1: have like a nice balance you know, high elevation low elevation.
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: So is that something that you guys think about, is
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: like trying to get more low elevation wilderness. Was there
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: ever talk of like trading because obviously these mountain bikers
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 1: like man, I just want to rap my bike over
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 1: that fourteen thousand foot peak. Well, so why don't we
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 1: just carve off that and like trade it up for
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: a bunch of stage brush? Are big, like a big
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 1: major riparian area wilderness area, that'd be interesting because it
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: doesn't exist, right. You know, that's a very like like
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 1: cutting question. We talked about a lot you should you
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: should probably have like you could pay you as a
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 1: consultant to like come like just for the big guy,
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 1: do you Yeah, um, yeah, I'll have my guy cow
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 1: call you. We have like you know, we have a
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 1: team of scientists who think about this kind of stuff
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: and yeah, absolutely, like most of the wilderness in the
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: US is rocking that we call rocket eyes that's a
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: relic of if you think of areas that are suitable
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: for wilderness are areas that we're probably either too difficult
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: to get to um for like resource extraction or roads, right,
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 1: and so the steep the rugged country, they don't you know,
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 1: it doesn't produce trees as well, harder to get to.
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 1: Those are the areas that present day are either designated
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: wilderness or we're still suitable for wilderness, which is why
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of high altitude wilderness. Because the elder Leopold,
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 1: when he proposed the first wilderness area, was pointing out
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 1: an area where he said, really it's greatest value and
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: at this time, like its only value is just in
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 1: it being wilderness. There's no other possible better thing for it.
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: And that was kind of like how he sold it.
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: And people are like, oh, yeah, it's got a point
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 1: and i's gonna do ship in there. Let's make it
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: a wilderness. Yeah, that's a lot of as I hear
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 1: people say, it's like it's useless any well, let's just
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: make a wilderness. You know he turned out, Yeah, he
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: took that thinking and manipulated it into wilderness area and
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 1: I did work on right. Hunter Aldo Leopold, he's a
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 1: great owner. Um. Uh. Y Canyon Lands in Idaho worked
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: on that. That's a wilderness area in the desert southern Idaho.
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 1: It's like five thousand acres founder seventeen thousand wizards desert wilderness. Um,
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: big lonely desert too. Um. So there is some elevation wilderness.
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: It's harder because that's also when you look at this historically,
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 1: the places people homesteaded, they didn't homestead where there wasn't
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 1: any water. They homesteaded places where they wanted the land
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: with the water because that was you need to you know,
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 1: for cows, or took out the best timber grounds. So, um,
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: it's harder. There are fewer options for lower eil elevation.
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: But there's quite a bit of like desert suitable wilderness
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 1: in the US, and it's something we think about all
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: the time. It's like, how do we diversify the wilderness
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 1: system so it has a good representation across the boarder. Yeah. Absolutely. Um.
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: Clear Water Country in North Idaho, UM good example. Uh.
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 1: You know, relatively low. It's like inland, temperate forest. I
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 1: don't know if you spend much time in the clear Water,
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 1: but you know, big huge roadless country, lower elevation, a
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: lot of recommended suitable wilderness UF. There would be a
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 1: good addition to the system. And for no other reason
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: then there aren't a lot of other ecosystems that are
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 1: sort of lower elevation kind of that big cedar country, UM,
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: that thick forest. UM. Not a lot of that country
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 1: is designated wilderness. UM. So we do when we're on
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 1: Star Wars. It does. There's some cedar grows up there
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: that blew my mind. I'd never seen like, you know,
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: gigantic cedar trees. Do. I remember driving over from like
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: just crossing over into that stuff where you come over
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: the bit roots to drop down the other side and
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 1: just feel like you like feeling like you drove a
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 1: thousand miles yea when you hit there, saying like, holy shit,
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 1: this is over here. Yeah, just looking at the other
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 1: side of the hill for ten years and had no idea. Man,
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: you know, it feels like you're on the coast. I
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 1: mean there's a lot of coastal species over there too,
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 1: tree species. So yeah, I don't know if I answer
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 1: your question, but like, yes, we think about it, Yes,
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 1: we work on it. Um. It's hard. It's hard. Still
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 1: working on it. Check back in a couple of years
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 1: and maybe I'll have some better news. Cool. Thank you,
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 1: that was good. Um uh boy. I hunt t shirts. Uh,
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 1: preferably one that says animal rights activists, that is a
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: hunting theme shirt. I find myself off and talking about
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 1: the conundrum that I appreciate these animals surely more than
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 1: anyone else. Oh, I got you, taking the old turning
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 1: it around, but occasionally, man, I like to stuff one
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 1: in the freezer, sticking it. Yeah. Man, I support from
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 1: him absolutely, the term from them like they did to us.
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: That's good. What do you think about that? Environmentalist the
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: animal rights activists? There will be a new line sign
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 1: here and it could be like the X on your
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 1: conservation license. Yeah like that. That's good man, that's good thinking,
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 1: thanks Steve. Anything else you can have a bigger including
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: thought than that, I'd categorize that as a joke, offhand joke,
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: not that you need to have a bigger computer. No, yeah,
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: I mean we just kind of gotta keep an open
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: mind on this different types of use and the fact
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 1: that you know, these federally managed lands or managed for everyone.
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 1: And um and I agree with with Brad where it's like,
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 1: we gotta tugget some heart strings and open some minds,
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 1: um and probably vote some folks out of office by
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 1: bringing new folks into office if we're gonna win this
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: public lands battle, because it's it's a legit deal and
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 1: it's um. Certainly where those are public lands are the
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 1: lands that I appreciate the most. You know, let's what
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 1: shaped me. For better words, he has uh has first light?
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 1: Have you guys had has never been like any like
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: big kind of like important kind of blowback for you
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 1: guys being involved in like advocacy for public lands in
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 1: the political sphere, like in your in your guys home
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: state Idaho. There has not been not that one has
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 1: ever said like what in the world you boys doing.
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 1: Nobody knocked on the door and said, oh, yeah, you
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 1: guys forgot to pay these taxes. So you guys have
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 1: never had someone say like, what what's up? What's up
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 1: with this? No, we have not. I mean truthfully, we
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 1: get feedback constantly, I mean every every day saying you know,
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 1: you guys make a great shirt. These guys make a
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 1: great shirt, but about this from you because of what
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 1: you guys do for public lands. So yeah, so yeah,
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: and animal rights and animal rights that's right, um, and
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 1: and I like you you don't do it with all
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: that that sanctimonious goody twissue is UM type activism that
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 1: you associate with Patagonia. Yeah, like the founder is like
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 1: like he's kind of like a half closeted hunter and
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 1: you know, and it's just you guys got a good
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 1: way of doing it. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah, so no,
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: there hasn't UM. You know, we certainly take emails and
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 1: phone calls and stuff to the negative UM seriously and
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 1: and I try to field all that stuff myself. And
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 1: but Jenny Hunters are like, hey, man, like you guys
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 1: are it's cool that you guys are making a stand
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: and yep yeah, and uh yeah, I've had some real
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 1: serious conversations UM with folks, especially UM, you know, just
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 1: my personal media stuff. I spoke up about UM the
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 1: HR and and definitely had had some people say, now
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 1: what exactly do you mean by this? Yeah? Yeah, which
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 1: is great because the thing that I think is dying
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: the most and why I appreciate so much and thank
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 1: you for uh ask me to be on these podcasts
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: on occasion is the conversation and we're losing it. Discourse, Yeah,
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 1: discourses that'll die in thing. I like discourse, and then
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 1: I like the other kind of course. What do you mean, Brad,
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 1: you gotta conclude thought. I'm spent. I got no concluding thoughts.
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 1: Do a pitch for your do a pitch for world
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 1: or society? Man? Tell people, are you do? You do
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 1: whatever you want I do. I'll pitch a much stuff.
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 1: I gotta concluding thoughts, including question, Yeah, you have a
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 1: two year old almost two? Yeah, almost two? You're married? Good? Um, okay,
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 1: go ahead. I like I like to see Mary. I
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 1: like to see fellows married. Man. I love being married people.
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 1: I like to see people. I like to see people married.
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 1: Like to see him have kids. Best thing I ever did.
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 1: People always dogging on marriage, but and like I love.
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 1: If you dog on marriage, you don't know what you're
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 1: talking about. Man, That's what I say. The amount of time,
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 1: it's like people like, oh, it takes so much time.
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 1: It's like it saves you so much bullshit that you
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 1: don't need to be involved in. Besides all besides all
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 1: this stuff about like love and all that, which I'm
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 1: a firm believer in. But just like the noise that
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 1: it takes out of your life just cause benefit analysis. Really,
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 1: He's look, I don't know what I like. I don't
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 1: know what I'm focused on. I know it's important to me,
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 1: and I know all the junk I don't need to do,
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 1: like spending all my money in bars, being all hone
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 1: over all the time, trying to find girlfriends and bars.
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 1: That isn't doing any good. Yeah, you think i'd be
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 1: done with my remodel an extra set hands around. Dude,
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: if you were married, your remodel would have been done
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 1: within a month. Yeah. Yeah, somebody keeping you on the task. Yeah,
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 1: if you're like, oh that's going down with the what's
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 1: his beers I heard about? Yeah, you'd be done with it. Yeah.
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 1: Someone would be pissed at you until you got done
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 1: with it. Motivation, and then they'd be happy forever once
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 1: I was done and you had eternal listen until you died.
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 1: Um alright, so yeah, make tell people what? Tell me
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 1: what what they ought to do? Like, what if they
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 1: want to be curious if they're curious about you guys? Um? Yeah,
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 1: so uh. I would say a couple of things. One
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 1: is like pay attention, don't listen to what your elected
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 1: officials tell you pay attention to how they vote because
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 1: how they vote matters, and if they don't vote, he'll
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 1: be sneaky with votes. It will be sneaky with votes.
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 1: Don't listen to like with coming out of their mouth,
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 1: slick like salesman pitch like, look at their voting record.
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 1: It's not hard to do. Um. And then if public
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 1: lands or something you care about, and you vote for
• 2:09:19
  Speaker 1: somebody that votes against public LANs, you ought to think
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 1: about your values and think long and hard about what's
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 1: important to you. That's my plea to people, if you
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 1: want them. Yeah, I wish hunters were as like I
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 1: wish hunters were like is rigid about that? Is? They
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 1: are about someone who wants like curtail your gun rights. Yeah,
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 1: we'll go after him bad. Right Totally. You should be
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 1: like yep, and if you try to curtail my landownership rights,
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 1: I'm coming. That's what I vote. Yeah. It's like very
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 1: black and white. Simple. How you on public LANs um
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 1: and will learn society? Uh, check us out, check us
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 1: out on a website, um to a fair to reach
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 1: out to me. You can track me down through our
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 1: website if you have any questions about what we do.
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 1: Um or if you need to if you need that
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 1: route from last year's death hike. I got that too, Yeah,
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 1: I got that. Put it asked for the big bullets,
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 1: I am selling that. By the way, those GPS coordinates. Uh,
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure he's safe. Um Can I want to
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: bring up something real quick as I have a conundrum.
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 1: Did you how never mind? I need to find out
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 1: more before I bring it up. I need to find
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: out more about it. I don't know't know if about
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 1: it to bring it upright? H Can I plug? Can
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 1: I plug our golly? Check us out on if you
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 1: want to see what we're doing in my hunting world.
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 1: That name come from our golly. It's uh. I mean
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 1: it's just the name of a species that I like.
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: Um kind of like species of sheep Marco polo. Where
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 1: does it live? Mostly in like Middle East? Um? I
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 1: don't know if I ever get to hunt once on
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 1: my bucket list. Um so, But yeah, I like the
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 1: look of the animal, like the name got nice cadence
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 1: to it. Um So we name the company after a species. Um.
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 1: But you can check us out and uh kind of
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 1: see some of the ore. We have a conservation focused
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 1: mission which I think makes separates us a little bit
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 1: from pretty much everybody else. Like everything we do is
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: in service of conservation of wild public lands. UM. So
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 1: you can check us out our Galley Outdoors dot com
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 1: and see we got going on. As in, like all
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 1: your profits are going towards them. We we we exist
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 1: to serve a conservation focused mission. That means we give money,
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 1: we give our time. But like everything we're doing, I
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 1: view it through the lens of is this furthering our
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 1: mission to protect wild hunting experiences? If it isn't, it's easy.
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 1: It's an easy choice. Now we have like an online
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 1: gear shop, It's like that's a that's where we carry
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 1: products people I think people want to use go back
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 1: and country hunting with. But that is in service of
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 1: the way I look at it, is in service of
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 1: our missions. Oh, that allows us to give money to causes,
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 1: allows me to spend more time working on you know,
• 2:12:05
  Speaker 1: conservation wild hunting experiences. UM. We have like you know,
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 1: featured content, do some films and stuff. All of that
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 1: is in service of both bringing more people helping people
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 1: both care about and understand the value of wild places.
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 1: UM through the lens of hunting. Because I think that's
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: how we're going to get people in the long runs.
• 2:12:22
  Speaker 1: Really stand up for him. Um, so, what's the website
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 1: Our golly outdoors dot com A r G A l
• 2:12:30
  Speaker 1: I Outdoors a r G A l I Outdoings. Yeah, alright, man, Brad,
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 1: thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me, Man, I
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: appreciate I appreciate what you guys do. By the way,
• 2:12:39
  Speaker 1: this is really cool, Glad. You're talking about conservation public
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 1: plans and we'll keep hammering at it. Yeah. Thanks man,
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 1: though I get scratched up by a grizzling turks. Thank you.
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 1: Lsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss