Latest / Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas / Breaking Boundaries: Gender, Identity & Authenticity ft. Aroh Akunth

Transcript

Breaking Boundaries: Gender, Identity & Authenticity ft. Aroh Akunth · Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Who are you outside of who you've been told you
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: should be from birth? We're bombarded with messages about who
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: we are and how we are to behave based on gender,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: long before we have the ability to think about these
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: questions for ourselves. I'm Lisa Mangeldas and this is Love Matters,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: and today we're going to be talking about gender and
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: identity with Aarro akund our very special guest whose work
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: has been focused on addressing and unpacking these topics. So Aarro,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. I want to introduce
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: you briefly, but I'd also love for you to introduce yourself.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: So Arro is a transfeminine writer, researcher, artist, one of
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: the most articulate people I've ever had the privilege of
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: speaking to. Some so excited to talk today. Our is
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: also the founder of the Valid Queer Project and the
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Art Archives. But Aro, since we're talking about identity today,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I really think.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: You are to take I'll ask how you see r
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I definitely see myself beyond identity right And I mean,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: first of all, thanks for having me and being so
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: generous in talking about my work. But I definitely see
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: not only myself. I hope everybody sees themselves beyond identity, right.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: The history of identity in the legacy that, for example,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: some of us would talk about identity comes from Combahi
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: River collective coining identity politics, right, And.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: They were mostly like.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Black queer women talking about their experiences and trying to
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: say that we don't talk about lived experiences enough and
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: so on. That's where it is coming from. And I think, unfortunately,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: this is a common mistake with identity that we tend
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: to get focused on the label the taxonomy, right. And
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: I think that is a problem because nobody has ever
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: talked about identity or shouldn't without connecting it to the world,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: the lived world one comes from, or that rich experience.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: So I think for people who might be interesting in
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: knowing me, it should be enough that they can put
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: a name to my face and know that I'm living.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: I think that's a good thing. That's a good way
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: to know people. Actually, we mostly know people, you know,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: when they're living, so that we share spaces with them
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: and memories with them, you know. And I mean you
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: also mentioned me as a writer, so I think, you know,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: that's kind of like a posthumous honor that writers get
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: that we are even ready when we are not there,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: and you don't have to necessarily share spaces with us.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: But that's how I think is a good way to
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: know and interact with me.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I love that. I think that labels, while perhaps for
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: some can be a sort of helpful in explaining and
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: understanding oneself, they can also constrain and confine just as
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: they define. Right. I think about the identity markers that
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I've been attached to or was taught that I should
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: be attached to, such as women, heterosexual, and I think
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: to some extent, that's the most elaborate form of drag.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: You know, life itself is a performance, right, Like what
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: is gender or what is gender?
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't know.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: I mean like, we know that enough people have said
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: that it's cooped up. We know that it is so
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: potent that it defines our life choices, the way we move,
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: the way we see ourselves. But I'm not sure if
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: that is a true or complete way of living or
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: that should be. And the thing is, unfortunately that gender
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: doesn't come alone, right, Like in the very beginning you
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: said that gender is the thing that is assigned to
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: your birth. But it's not just gender, it's also your
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: cast it's also your race. It's also a lot of
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: times your socio economic background. And those are really hard things,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: and they interact with each other and they can decide
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: your whole life trajectory. And we can always say that, oh,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: if you work hard enough, or you know whatever, the
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: reasons one gives to actually obfuscate power, right, Rather than
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: realizing that most of the people are going to be
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: like that that's going to dictate their whole life and
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: so on, we tend to hyper focus on exceptions, you know,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: to the rule, but not the exceptions which make us
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: renegotiate our resumptions, exceptions which allow us to reinforce power.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: But this kind of assigning you social identities from your
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: birth puts you at conflict with yourself from the get go.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: And I think a lot of thinkers are now trying
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: to wrestle with this, like what this means?
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Are there any identity markers that bring you a sense
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: of meaning or joy? Like I see you're wearing a
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: sarry for example, when Violin does indian Ness for example,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: is that something you do like to stay defined by.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: I'm just I've been thinking about this for myself.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: I'm just yeah, the reason I am so exhilarated by
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: this is because I really hope people don't look at
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: me and think Indian, because Sadi is not just Indian,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: right like it's also about glad Ishie. It's also Sri Lankan.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: I really hope they don't assign me to a nationality
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: when they see me wearing a sari. And as for
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: the joy in claiming certain identities, if one is using
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: their identity to let people in and organize around it,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: and in some ways, you know, identity can also be
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: oppositional practice, Like it brings me immense joy to foreclose
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: that my ancestors were unto tables and that I, by
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: the rigid systems of caste am considered an untouchable in
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: the South Asian context um, and it allows me to
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: build allyship and bridges with other people who have been
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: subjected to this kind of in humanity. My transness allows me,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: gives me all the logics and the right to experiment
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: with myself and my body, gives me autonomy and empowerment,
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: which is unprecedented without this language, at least in my journey.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: And I think those are important things. And as for
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: the Sadi and how I.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: Get this sardi.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: It's a friend sari, you know, like I feel it's
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: a friend's mother's. Sorry to be precise, Um, when my
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: grandmother dresses me and her sari and sends me out
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: of the door, she knows the violence I would be
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: subjected to, But her dressing me up in her sary
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: and providing me that sari is support enough, because we
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: are never really alone, if you think.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: About it, right, We walk with the love that we
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: have been given.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: And similarly, this friend's mother passed away and they provided
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: their saris to their friends who might be trans who
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: might not have those sais, who might not get it
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: like you know, for example, I know many people who
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: are not lucky enough to have grandmothers.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: Who passed down the sais to them and so on.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: And it's just a way of my expression. But it's
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: not specific to me. Right Like in our part of
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: the world, people have always worn saris and it didn't
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: matter what they had between their legs two for them
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: to have the right.
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: To wear it. It was never a question historically speaking.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: So I think there is definitely joy, more respect, a
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: better aspiration for living that can be attached to identities. Yeah,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: but I'm not sure if identities unto themselves are a solution.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: How do you think family plays into identity. When we
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: talked before this conversation, we talked of how family citizenship,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: like these things that we need can also be very stifling. Yeah,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: but what sort of relationship has your family played in
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: shaping how you think of identity?
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: What need is stifling? This is quite established.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Like anybody who can have an honest conversation with themselves
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: will tell you that when you need something, you feel vulnerable, and.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: That's not a very nice position to be in.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: It can make you insecure, It can make you fearful,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: It can make you act in a way.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: Which is not the best I think.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Then one needs to question is that, yes, you need it,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: and you might need it to survive at times, you
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: might also be able to survive without it. There are many,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: very many people who are able to survive without it
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: and outside it. But maybe it's not a very central
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: idea around which you should live your life, because it's
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: both give and take, and like, as long as you
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: know that there's a given take, you'd be in a
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: better position to, you know, reconcile yourself with that truth
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: and complexity. But if you don't even know that it's
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: actually a given. Take, it's not just I have a
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: need and the need is being met. When the need
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: is being met, it is costing you something. And yeah,
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: I hope people think more about the cost.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: I think often when it comes to expressing one's gender
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: and sexuality, particularly in the South Asian context, family can
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: present a massive obstacle, you know, in terms of how
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: what is sort of the respectable and honorable way to
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: be as for your family versus perhaps who you see
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: yourself as or wish to be. Is that something that
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: you had to navigate or I mean, as an unmarried
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: thirty four year old woman who talks about sex on
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: the internet, I feel like, even though it's quite basic,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: like really not so radical, I feel like I have
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: to navigate some of that. And I'd love to hear
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: what your journey has been like in that.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Regard, right, I think two paths too, Like I wouldn't
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: like to answer your question in two parts. First thing is, yes,
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: sometimes the focus on us and what we are doing
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: we should.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: We all know this as artists and creators, because.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: People can't trace our original sources, because people can't trace
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: the archives of people who have lived like us and
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: done things like us.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: We just become what we become right in the public eye.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: But for example, I have known very many women pre
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: independent woman, working woman, single woman, talking about sex, because
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: that is the generation of my grandmother's and I have
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: been raised by them, and I'm very proud to be
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: raised by these grandmothers, many of them choosing to live
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: with friends, many of them choosing to live with their
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: female lovers. And just because their archives are not available
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: popularly doesn't mean they don't exist. And just because archives
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: are similarly people like me might not be accessible. They
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: might only know aruwakunt and that's what shows up, doesn't
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: mean that that's the only reality. So I think that's
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: one thing definitely to be careful of. And like I
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: feel like, yeah, given the context we are in, it's
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: very difficult to be radical because the demand for radicalness
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: and what is needed for things to actually change is
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: that much high in an unequal, brutal kind of system.
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: You would have to remind me what the first part
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: of your question was.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: I think I was trying to get at whether a
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: family was ever an obstacle in navigating or expressing identity
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: for you.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: I think that's where I think we become a bit exceptionalist,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: because family is an obstacle all across the world. And
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: I could tell you how respect is also tied to
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: cast and respect is a lot of times for children
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: of migrants related to assimilating well.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: And so on. Right, it's tied to race.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: It's not just about generine sexuality, as has been the
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: conversation from the get go. And the families do create obstacle,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: as I said, like they come with violence. So I
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: think that's more or less answered. But I do want
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: to talk about it in a different way, in the
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: way that as societies, are we empowering our families to
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: accept their children, what are we providing for these very
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: many families. Most of the families in the world live
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: quite poor, ma just make it by still, And this
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: is just the reality. Everything from their health care to
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: their education, everything that one needs to survive is up
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: for question. There's very very few people, even in West,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: even in developed countries, so as to say who don't
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: struggle with these things. If this is the society we
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: have built, If this is the societies we have built,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: then it's but natural that on that family as a
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: microcosm of society, there will be violence.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: So I think that violence doesn't surprise me.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: I don't have more expectation of my family than I
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: have of this state or government and so on. But
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: that said, it is very hard because often in interpersonal relationships,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: and especially in family, which is mostly like a group dynamic.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Even though I have lived in a family where it
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: was just me and my single mother and now it's
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: again me and my widowed grandmother, so I've lived in
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: families of two also, but generally it's a group dynamic,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: and there it can be a lot of trauma and
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: you know, feeling of loss of power and being subjected
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: to violence for other people who hold the most close to.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: And live with.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: And so I would reframe the thing that there are
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: challenges and families can be obstacle, but to even be
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: a family has a lot of obstacles, and we should
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: not lose sight of that.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: That's true. Gosh, You've made me think of so many
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: things that I want to bring things back to gender
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: since that's the focus of the episode today. You know,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people who are not as
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: immersed in discourse around gender and rights and identity politics
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: and things, the terminology is alienating, and so instead of
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: inviting people in the conversations end up facing some resistance
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: because it's just like the language only is like too
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: much for them to consent. I mean, I think it's
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: unfortunate people have to do the labor after being on
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: the receiving end of the lack of that understanding already.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: But here we are, So can we perhaps explain that
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: people who might be less familiar. You know, when I
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: asked you what is gender? I think a lot of
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: people assume that gender is determined by what's between your legs, right,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: There's this conflation of biological sex with gender, and I
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: think it might be helpful for some to understand why
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: that isn't accurate. And also perhaps we can talk about
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: the socially constructed element of how we see gender. You know,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: so omnipresent that it seems like it's natural, but it isn't.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's definitely not natural. Everything that
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: we say is natural. See, natural is one way to
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: support a kind of like science fiction. So whatever anybody
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: thinks that they say is natural, they need to think
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: like one hundred times about whether it is. For example,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: you said biological sex, right, they're not talking about biological
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: sex when they even say that they're talking about biological
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: sex because they're talking about male and female, which are
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: again like constructed kind of sex identifications, which means that
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: there are of course, you know, like you are called
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: male and female based on xxxy chromosomes. Now chromosomes can
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: have variations, and there's so many intersex activists and.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: Lives and.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Literature by and for intersex people which talks about this.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: So they're talking about like a sex binary kind of
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: which is not scientific, it's science fiction.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think language truly is inadequate, and it's almost
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: like we're playing badminton, right trying to trying to talk
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: about gender in a way that doesn't rely on jargon.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Like there's all this jargon around identity and activism that
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: actually can can sometimes limit the expansiveness that that is
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: actually contained within the possibility of identity. Right Like as
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: soon as let's say you you know in your introduction
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: or when you google you online and the things the
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: terms associated with with anybody, right, the internet reduces. So
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: it's like transfeminine, non binary right now, most people are
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: going to hold on to those two terms and be like, oh,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: what does that mean? You know, what does it mean
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: to be both transfeminine and non binary? As if now
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: that those two words are attached to your identity, you
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: must somehow justify you know, or that that's it then,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: or that you can either be one or the other.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Where even though man and women are very reductive, that's
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: the gender binary such at In fact, all labels to
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: some extent are trying to contain something that's infinite in
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: some sort of small package.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Right, But I think labels are not trying to do that,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: and labels shouldn't do that.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: But individuals are that, and individuals should have that kind
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: of self respecting relationship with themselves.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: I think I now have gathered some of your earlier question,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: which was that this idea that men or women operate
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: in any way is not consistent in any society. In
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: any society, there are many many what we call ethnic
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: gender minorities in South Asia which grow in their specific
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: linguistic social context. We have the Nupi man Bees, we
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: have the Tiru Nangas, so we have the Hydra Kothi's,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: we have the Quaja Sarahs and so on. And yet
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: I think for a person like me who's passed off
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: as trans women.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: And non minority whatever. I am aware of that.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Tradition and as of now, I'm living outside that tradition, right,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: And that is also means something because there are certain
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: kind of supports through which I'm able to live a
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: life like this.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: I don't I.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Want to be a bit of a turncoat and say
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: I don't have problem with the conversations we are having.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: I think they're great conversations, and I think activists.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Are amazing, and I think all these people who know
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: this dragon are also very important and essential to how
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: the world works. I think they're on the right side
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: of history and the right side of what needs to
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: be done.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: So I wouldn't.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Blame the jargon on those who are trying to tip
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: the structure towards fairness. Absolutely, But in my observation, there
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: are limitations to language in the way that language cannot
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: change human apathy and indifference. It has never happened in
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: any context. It's not happened in the context of war, genocide, hunger,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: poverty not happened. You can't talk to your way out
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: of oppression. Unfortunately, that is what the history tells us.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: And the other thing is because you know, I also
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: take classes, I teach university students and so on. And
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: also the communities I live in, I do work there
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: also because it's reparative and it needs to be done.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Intention is very important. Commitment is very important because it's
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: through commitment through which you realize your self esteem. Even
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: people who grow up having nice self esteems, having everything
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: struggle after a point to maintain it. Because that's the fact.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: We need to bide time. You know, we all are
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: in touch with our mortality, and we must do work
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: and work that we're proud of. Work we see ourselves
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: in work that makes us feel nice to build our
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: self esteem, and in the classroom, outside the classroom, on
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: the road, whatever we call kindness, compassion. You know, it's
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: the intention that matters, and committing to that intention that matters.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: And I think, yes, it's true that language can alienate,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: but that cannot be the reason for somebody to not
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: have intentions or to not thought about those intentions. That
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: cannot be the reason for them to be committed. Because
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: I would any day work with a committed labor unionist
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: who doesn't know the heed she there of trance, but
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: is doing good work because that work.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: Needs to be done.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: I would any day work with somebody who's bringing down
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: the rents from the real estate market any day. You know,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: we don't all have to know everything about everything. That's
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: never been there's never been a demand, you know, the
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: demand has always been to reorganize and reorient.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I think so often on social media and these like
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: fish bowls, you know where unfortunately often there's sort of
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: sometimes discussions between people on the same team, like we're
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: on the same team. We don't have to outwook each other,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: you know, we're on the same team. And I think
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: sometimes we can do with that reminder, like if you
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: don't quite know your way around a very anglicized vocabulary
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: of various terms to do with gender and justice, it
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily belie a lack of intention, especially in our
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: part of the world, where language is also something that's
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: not everybody doesn't have access to the same anglicized vocabulary,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: and it would be wonderful also if we could learn
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: our own, as you were saying, there's a history in
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: our part of the world also, instead of only borrowing
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: from the language of Western feminism. Right, but let's also
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about sexuality and gender in our relationships,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: and how sort of our lived experiences perhaps end up
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: either s throwing up challenges or even new discoveries around
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: our own perception of an experience of gender. You know,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Like I just I'm curious whether in navigating romantic relationships,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: for example, do you have to explain yourself. I find
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: myself having to explain myself to so much more than
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I wish I had to. You know, I think when
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: you this idea of conformity, right, and the idea of
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: anybody who's not easy to put into a box as
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: a misfit or someone you have to sort of like
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: put in an extra effort to understand what they want.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Like let's say I don't want marriage in kids. Now,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: this seems like why do I have to explain why
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: that's the thing?
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: But as a woman who's thirty four, I am constantly
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: having to explain this to the man I am interested
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: in dating, or to my family or whatever.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: So I think there's elements of my gender that or
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: the expectations around it, that factor into how the world
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: thinks I should operate in my private life. What has
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: that been like for you?
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Okay?
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: I think this is where my response might get into
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: the territory of annoying, because but this is also not
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: knowing me, you know, like this is how just I think,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: and I am in my every day and me and
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: my therapist constantly try to think about why, but we
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: haven't found an answer yet. But basically, I'm going to
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: answer this in a social way, right. The thing is
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: we have to explain because we are placing a demand
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: right in very of what you're saying. A woman who
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: doesn't want you, for example, reproduce, there's a unfortunately, a
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: non conformance, and it's the cost of non conferments that unfortunately,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: not only women and queer people have to pay.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: Everybody has to pay, right like men who have shrill.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Voices, men who have long hair in the South Asian context,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: men who are not probably very muscular and very you know,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: like able bodied, and so on, men who are just
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: outrightly not considered good looking by beauty standards and so on. Right,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: all of them are having to pay those costs in
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: their own ways. And before this you talked a bit
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: about like social media and what terms appear on internet
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: for me and so on, And I think that's an
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: interesting intersection of where like language and media together come together,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: then it's just not language, you know.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: I think many of.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: These perceptions that we are talking about are true and
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: not true at the same time. But the thing is
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: that so many queer people who live in India, who
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: are my communities and so on, and I have lived
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: majority of my life in.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: India and so on, didn't grow up thinking trance.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: We grew up being called chukha heija, you know, like kothi,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: like these were the slurs we knew, and so it
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: would be a bit bizarre and also not real for
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: us to say suddenly trans you know, because we know
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: the names we have been called by. We know that
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: identities also pass off as slurs, right And I think
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: the other thing is that on social media, if you
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: see two people squabbling somehow, it becomes about sea wokes
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: to this sea cancel culture does this. But this is
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: social media is also a reflection of a reality. It's
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: not that before social media people were not doing this.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: It's not that people who don't use social media don't
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: do this. We often do this. We are often at
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: odds with the people who want the same thing. And
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: that is fine, because we just said that you are
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: only doing this because you have that expectation and demand. Right,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: it's a cost of non conformity. It's not a bad
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: cost to pay. It only becomes a cost because you
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: have confirmity.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: Place. Cruising is amazing. Have you engaged with cruising at all? Lisa, No,
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: I have not.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: So cruising is this whole thing in queer culture where
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: you just go and have sex with random people you
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: don't know. You don't have to ask their names, you
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: don't have to ask their gender, you don't have to
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: ask whether they like to do. And it happens everywhere.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: It happens in Berlin, it happens in Delhi, it happens
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: in Bombay, it happens in Goa. Of course, the scenery
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: changes and go ats the beaches.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: In Berlin and Deli and Bombait.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: It's the parks sometimes some cinema halls and so on.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: And I think that's such an exciting place, right because generally,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: if you go to say, for example, imagine a sex
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: club or like a high end orgy or whatever, you
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: have to get an invite, you have to pay an
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: entry fee, you need to have the right partner, the
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: right dress.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: But nobody's asking this of you. At a public urinal, you.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Know, everybody can come there, everybody can do their business.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Some people are just going to use the washroom and leave,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: but it's fine if somebody these having some fun in
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: the stall, right, And that's where it is. That is
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: the very human need to make these connections. And I
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: think that's also a moving space, right, I've already said
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: it's a moving space in the way of the affordability
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: of it. And who goes to these spaces?
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: All kinds of people go to these spaces. Sex workers
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: go to these spaces. Queer people go to these spaces.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Queer people of all ages, races, backgrounds go to these places.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: Heterosexuals go to these places. Bisexuals go to these places.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Right, And that's where I think the most interesting things happen.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Like I know so many cisterterosexual women who have been
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: who say that they have been raised by queer culture,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: which means that in these spaces, in a dive bar
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: or in a cruising park, they learned a thing or
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: two about sex, you know, like for example, I don't
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: know scissoring, which is more associated with lesbian I have
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: enjoyed it with my cism.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: And partner also, and that's possible.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: You know, that's the place of possibility, and there is
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: a certain kind of fluidity of gender there because it's
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: act specific. It's about that sexual that particular way of
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: interacting with that sex, which is then can also be
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: a way of enjoying for many, can all be can
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: also be a way of pleasure for many, of achieving pleasure.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: And I think that's how I would want to answer
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: this question.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: That just throw yourself into the social throw yourself into
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: everyday life, you know, like why would you want to
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: hide behind a screen or an app or like, you know,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: having those Like I also feel like sometimes this kind
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: of like consent discourse gets so many things so wrong,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Like for example, there was this condem packaging with both
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: partners who'ld open only when they both press from both ends,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: you Like, I definitely wouldn't want my condom to be
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: so protected or like having this kind of like fully
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: signatures and so on, and like both ends, I definitely
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: wouldn't want my condom to be so protected or like
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: having this kind of like fully signatures and so on,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: and like, you know, yeah, almost like a pillion now, Yeah,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: I mean I feel like it's good to discuss those
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: things and have a safe word and have a safe
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: gesture if you can't use your mouth right, or like
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: figuring out what safety means.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: That's very important.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: But I think that everything can have excesses, and I
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: think these are some of the excesses which I definitely
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: don't want in my bedroom as a person who's very
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: vehemently pro consent and so on.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing all of that.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: I think that the term when we when we talk
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: about gender non conforming, we suggest that people who don't
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: identify as such are conforming, right, which indicates within itself
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: the artifice of that conformity. Right. It's a funny as
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: versus them type of situation where cist gender and heterosexual
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: people tend to see queer people as the other. But actually,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: by being on board with the term gender nonconforming, you
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: admit that you are simply conforming, which is itself a performance, right.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: And yet even people who you know have decided whatever
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: that they would at least outwardly like to be seen
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: a certain way, et cetera, et cetera. To the line,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: do try and look for outlets like what you've said earlier,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: whether it's the exclusive orgy for only rich people, or
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: whether it's a you know, a club that has address
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: code and et cetera, et cetera. But what that points
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: do in a way is that the respectability politics of
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: what is your marriage and sex between a man and
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: a woman in missionary to have a child and like,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: that is not how the vast majority of people actually
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: want to experience their private lives, right, And yet we pretend,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: we must pretend in respectable society that the majority you know,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: are man and woman and in straight relationships and only
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: want to have a family and want to be monogamous,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: and like, there's so much pretending.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that the regimes of respectability politics,
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: and this is a good thing, have never been absolute.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: Everybody has known. Everybody who does.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Even practice respectability politics knows that they're a hypocrite.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: You know, there's a been called out though.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: I mean yes, because they know that they're using a
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: discourse of power and whenever.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: You question power, no power likes to be questioned.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: But when you use respectability politics logics, you can only
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: use it them in certain spaces.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: You can't actually govern it.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: As of now, with the technologies that we have and
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: how we are organized as societies to actually enforce them
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: in a totalitarian way.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: It's very very difficult task.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: And in that sense, these so called people who are confirming,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: we might say that they're performing, but actually they're not performing.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: They're performing terribly, you know once I mean I also
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: used to dance once upon it, and I hate uncoordinated performances.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Like that's something where I'm a confirmist, right, Like I
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: hate and coordinate performances. I think like all these cetero
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: sexuals are like a really badly organized flash mob. You know,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: one hand is going there, one hand is going there,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: like nobody knows what is happening. And so all these
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: people who call themselves confirming are not confirming.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: For example, live in.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Relation people heterosexuals and live in relationships have problems accessing
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: housing as married couples in many parts.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: Of the world.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Women who appear as this heterosexual woman who appear as
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: a bit butch do often get comments about it, and
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: so on.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: A lot of them.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Want threesomes, a lot of them wants want co colding,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: and so on, like these are not something which the
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: queers did and queers made happen. And I think this
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: is where we now democratize the queer theory for your audience,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: that queer is not just identity, right, like the queer
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: theories coming from this idea that if you were given
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: these ten things to follow, even if you're saying you're
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: a ceterosexual, you just won't be able to.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: So it's a myth.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: And I think it would be incorrect to say that
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: most people are living like this. It would be more
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: correct to say that more people don't talk about the
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: conditions that they are living in.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: You know, they just don't talk about this condition. So
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: then it's very.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Difficult to confirm to these ten things that you have
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: been given as a cetero sexual right. And I think
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: it's interesting that you also mixed respectability with this kind
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: of like sis cetero sexual identifying, because it's not just them, right,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: it's also the homosexual. So it's also many other identities
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: which try to do this kind of respectability politics. For example,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: three seventy seven is read down. It becomes the big
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: moment right for queer rights in India. But the reasoning
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: for it being read down is a right to privacy
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: judgment which comes before that. Now the thing is what
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: is privacy and who can afford privacy? Definitely, all these
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: people who cruise cannot afford privacy. Definitely, transsex workers can't
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: afford privacy. And there also there's the thing that at
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: the same time, in three seventy seven is read down,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: begging is criminalized. In that point in history, trans families
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: are being criminalized, you know, chosen family and so on.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: So as long as you are not in the purview
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: of law, there are so many more liberties to be.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Lived which you can't if.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Very kind of regressive politics makes you their subject, which
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: I think, unfortunately has now happened for transfer people, you know,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: across the world. But historically this has happened for women's rights, right,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: This has also happened for rights.
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: Of workers and so on.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Once you are the subject of regressive politics, it's very
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: difficult to come out of it. And I think that's
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: where the respectability politics derives its power.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: You know, think of it this way. If there is
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: no state in law to.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Back it, it's going to be a funny opinion. Nobody's
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: gonna follow it, nobody's gonna enforce it. But in India
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: we don't only have legal and state mechanisms, but we
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: have community mechanisms and paralegal entities or not even legal entities,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: for example, the krpentats and in the urban cases, in
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: the urban cities it's the resident's welfare association and whatnot,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: which you know, govern our lives. This is supposed to
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: be self governance, but it's a misleading term to say
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: the least.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think in so many ways, all of
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: the structures, right, the big structures of society that the
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: structural principles family, government, religion, work, you know, capitalism, technology,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: all of these things kind of seek to control and
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: surveil and sort of confine, right, And so I think
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: that it would be wonderful if, as we sort of
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: wrap up this conversation, if we could perhaps draw from
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: lived experiences as well as perhaps lessons from you know,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: whatever one might have been through or studied so far.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: For anyone who's grappling with these types of questions around
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: their own identity or not able to bridge that dissonance
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: between who they're expected to be and who they know
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: themselves to be because of circumstance or family or whatever
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: it is, like, you know, how can we perhaps attempt
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: to be true to ourselves, you know, while still remaining safe.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: I definitely can't tell this two people, and I definitely
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: don't have the answer for that. I think that's a
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: very good question. But I think there's also this tendency
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: in our societies. Very recently, somebody was asking me, can
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: you give me a self help book on how.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: To build community? I said, first of all, I.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Don't know what books are being produced and who's producing them,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: and like what their interests are, But there's no book
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: possibly that is going to tell you how to build
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: a community. You just have to build community. And I
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: think my role could be even though many very many
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: people a lot of times reflect this to me that
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever, something helped, like having a conversation with
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: me helped. But I don't take the onus of those
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: seeking themselves and make it my own.
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: It can't be.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I can only be a person they can be in
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: conversation with and sort their thoughts out.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: Maybe hearing me makes them feel better and so on.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Right, But people who are doing this work, whether for
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: gender or not, they're any way doing it, and I
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: hope they continue to do it because that's what you
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: need to live. And I hope a lot of your
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: listeners are those kinds of people.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: That's what I for. And uh, yeah, I don't.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Think this question is something so easily answered or definitely
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: should be answered by somebody other than yourself.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, not by me for sure, not no other
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: than like other than oneself one self. That no one
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: can do. You mean that it is not something you
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: can prescribe. Yeah, one person cannot really tell another person
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: how to be.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, freedom is not formulaic.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: That's true. Freedom is not formulaic. I suppose one can
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: perhaps share what one's own experience has been without it
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: being prescriptive.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: Right, I was quite lucky.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: I had a lucky start. I never felt that I'm
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: without love in my life. I never felt that life
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: is not worth living. And when we say never, right,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: it's a it's a poetic emphasis. You know, your brain
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: obviously goes everywhere, you think, obviously everything. But this is
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: when I say never, I mean, this is the result
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: I arrived at. And I think that was the reason,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: was that a lot of my birth families and chosen
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: families and communities I do believe genuinely care about human beings,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: you know, be it them calling themselves you know, left
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: socialists arguing for education, healthcare reparations, be it themselves, calling
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: themselves somebody who wants to see a world without caste
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: or without racial stratification, or without gendered lives. It's the
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: lofty idea to live your life around, but I don't
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: know any other idea one would want to live their
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: life around as well.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, thanks so much for joining us. It's been such
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: a pleasure talking to you, and you've left me with
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: so much to think about. Freedom is not formulaic. Thank you,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you so so much. This has been such a pleasure.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: I am really grateful that you joined us on Love Matters.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Thank you, and thank you so much for tuning in.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this episode. Love Matters is produced
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: by b W, Jeremy's International Broadcaster and The Indian Express,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: and if you have any feedback or a question for us,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: you can write to us at Lovematters at BW dot com.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: We'd love it if you.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Share this podcast, rate and review it wherever you're listening.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: As always, I believe Love Matters