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Inside MOIA: Autonomous Turnkey Solution for Europe · Autonomy Insiders

• Daniel Abreu Marques: Welcome to Autonomy Insider. Today's guest is Rainer Becker, Director of Business Development at MOIA And MOIA is the autonomous mobility arm of the Volkswagen Group and one of the most serious European players working on deploying fully autonomous ride pooling services. In this conversation, we will go deep into MOIA's autonomous strategy and Rainer, I'm really happy to have you on the show today. Today with Rainer Becker. Rainer: Yeah, thank you very much for the warm welcome. I'm happy to be here myself. Thanks a lot for the invitation. Daniel Abreu Marques: Welcome to Autonomy Insiders, the show where global industry leaders in autonomous driving unpack their real-world insights. You're welcome. To kick things off, for listeners who may know Volkswagen but not MOIA in detail, ⁓ do you describe what MOIA is today? Rainer: Well, to discover what MOIA is today, maybe I start with what MOIA to be ⁓ we have changed considerably, but the start is very important for what we offer today. We founded in 2017 ⁓ to up run a right pooling service in Hamburg, Germany. Actually, it was founded in but the first market that we went to was Hamburg. And we started operating this ride pooling service there in 2019. it was extended over that period. By now, we have done 12 million rides. And if you talk about ride pooling, what we mean by this is that it's very similar to ride hailing which you might know from big TNCs from the US. But actually, we don't have a one-on-one attribution of passengers to vehicles. we basically tried to pool rides into one vehicle that have similar routes. So we have a very complex algorithm that tries to enhance the number of people inside the car so that we can perform several rides with one vehicle only, which will ⁓ additional of vehicles on the road. So this service was founded at time. ⁓ We built software to run it. We built a car that makes it very convenient, comfortable for people to use as ride-pooling service. And we started actually operating the service, implementing it in Hamburg. So also the operation is ours. We have an own subsidiary that is running those vehicles in Hamburg based on our platform that employs drivers that are driving those vehicles. And yeah, as I said, we have done 12 million rides in this way today. We are part of the Hamburg public transport system. We actually have a public transport concession from the city of Hamburg. ⁓ And very closely working also with the local Hochbahn public transport company, being a substantial part of Hamburg's transport system. So ⁓ that basically the beginning. So the question always is when you start something, how do you scale it? How do you grow? How did it become more relevant in the world? And our approach to grow rather than to go to another city and build up the same thing again. We said, OK, let's take this technology. Let's take this software. And let's take experience that we have and ⁓ it to someone ⁓ is operating already in this ⁓ city. ⁓ on top of this, this is the, I think, most interesting part of it. We autonomous vehicles to the offer. So basically, we receive an autonomous vehicles from Volkswagen. work together with them to it autonomous. ⁓ we implemented our software, added to our software so that this ride-pooling service can ⁓ run these autonomous vehicles driverless. And this what we're actually doing right now. And ⁓ my actually also to offer this to cities all over the world. And we call it the MOIA Turnkey Solution. It is... ⁓ we call it the MOIA Solution. It has basically three pillars. The first one is the vehicle, autonomous vehicle. Second one is the platform that allows you to manage the vehicle and allows you to manage the mobility as a service ⁓ And the third pillar, we call it operator enablement because if we hand this over to another operator, we want to make sure that this operator knows what they are doing. So we train them, we support them, we consult them, It has basically three pillars. The first one is the vehicle, autonomous vehicle. Second one is the platform that allows you to manage the vehicle and allows you to manage the mobility as a service ⁓ And the third pillar, we call it operator enablement because if we hand this over to another operator, we want to make sure that this operator knows what they are doing. So we train them, we support them, we ⁓ consult them, we have them to set up the service and to run it. very boring things like spare parts, for example, have to be organized, all this kind of stuff so that the operator is always online and can ⁓ operate the system seamlessly. So that's actually what we are doing. We are providing the technology to mobility providers all over the world that are aiming on using autonomous mobility technology for their services. Daniel Abreu Marques: That's really interesting. when you talk about turnkey offer, so where do you draw the boundaries then of what MOIA does what the partner or the city is expected to do? So ⁓ what ⁓ of this turnkey solution then will ⁓ get over the partner? Rainer: Yeah, so roughly you can say everything where you touch the car and where you manage the car, the asset car, will be done by the local operator. So we sell the car to that operator. We give them a license to our software that is connected to the car and that allows you to know going on inside the car, to know what's going on with the car, what status the car is in right now, what it is doing. And we also provide them with all services, operator enablement. The operator basically takes this car, they offer the service in their city, they put their brand on it, they sell the tickets for the rides, it's all their pricing, it's all their that they send at the end to the customer. So basically they provide the local B2C service, a mobility service ⁓ to customers just using our technology. Daniel Abreu Marques: OK. And this turnkey model, then, what implies that for the revenue stream? So is then MOIA really aiming to monetize through the vehicle, the software licensing, and the service kind of contracts, or else, or a mix of it? Rainer: It's a mix. Yeah, yeah. As a product is a mix, also the revenue model is a mix. Of course, a part will be the vehicle. That's when I meet a customer, basically a second or maybe third question always is, how much is a vehicle? And I have to tell them the vehicle is only a part of the system. The vehicle by itself is pretty dumb, actually. It doesn't know what to do. And you can't talk to it, right? So you need to have some software that can talk to it. So, okay, here we go. We already need a software to talk to the vehicle. Then we also want to talk to the people inside the vehicle, for example. So we want to have a connection to the vehicle. You need another software to do that, to understand what's going on inside this vehicle. You need to actually make sure that the operation of the vehicle is safe. In the European regulation, it's very different than in the US. In the US, if you enter Waymo, you as a passenger, you say, okay, this ride is safe. Let's go. I'm ready to go. In Europe, the regulation asks the operator to make sure that each ride is safe. So we need to have technology inside the car that shows you that ⁓ ride is safe, that everybody's buckled up, that there's no cat or dogs running around, that there's no luggage ⁓ the floor. So basically, it's a lot of technology that you need to offer software. then there's, again, the service not to be neglected. mean, at the end, this is a vehicle. It needs to be serviced. It needs to be maintained. sensitive sensors inside this vehicle. They need to be maintained. You need to have certain procedures that are done. this has to be supported. So that's a lot of additional ⁓ that needs to be done. It's not only vehicles. It's also preparation. It's consulting. ⁓ setting you for the service then supporting you throughout your daily operation. Daniel Abreu Marques: Makes sense. you mentioned there are also a lot of sensors and so on ⁓ the vehicle needs. So ⁓ they all factory installed at ⁓ the factory line, or is it more like retrofit? Rainer: They will be. So we are currently in the status where we are still working with prototypes, but very soon we will go into pre-production and we are planning to produce those vehicles from next year in the production line than any other Volkswagen ID Buzz We're actually using the Volkswagen ID Buzz, a commercial vehicle from Volkswagen that is produced always as a series version. You can also buy one as a normal customer in a... be a Volkswagen dealer and the Volkswagen ID Buzz AD will be a special version that is equipped with all the sensors with all the technology and it will be built on the same line and all the other ID Buzz AD. So it's basically everything integrated. So it's not like we take a car from the line and then screw a lot of stuff on top of it. It's really integrated. And I think this is a very important. part of our offer. As we are a subsidiary of an OEM, we have very deep access to the vehicle, to the vehicle software, to the vehicle electronics, and the self-driving system is very deeply embedded into the vehicle and very closely embedded. And it's a very integrated setup that we're also producing as that. Daniel Abreu Marques: That's very interesting. And on the software side, so the virtual driver, the brain of this autonomous solution is then the Mobileye virtual driver. And is this partnership ⁓ of exclusive for your series production, or would you consider also to integrate alternative AV stacks in the future? Rainer: Yeah. Correct. Yeah. So Mobileye has been selected as our self-driving system provider and we are focusing on implementing Mobileye into our current vehicle. So, you know, this is a very new technology. A lot of things are unknown. It's a little bit, and you can't ask a of people, how would you do this or that? I know there's not a lot of experience worldwide on how to implement self-driving vehicle and how to design it. So ⁓ Basically, we really wanted to keep it simple. That's why we took a series vehicle, the ID Buzz. We didn't want to build a new vehicle from scratch that needs another production, that needs another homologation, it needs a lot of effort just to do the vehicle itself. We wanted to take a ready vehicle. We wanted to take, let's say, already successful and known brand to provide the SDS system. And once we know more about this, once we have done this experience, we have homologated our first vehicle as an Daniel Abreu Marques: . Rainer: AD vehicle, we know how to do that. And ⁓ let's see where it goes afterwards. But for now, really, we are focusing on this laser focus on getting this vehicle on the street to homologate it and to scale it. Daniel Abreu Marques: All right. And you already touched on the topic of homologation. And I think I read you were working towards also like the EU type approval for the ID Buzz by 2027, Rainer: Correct. Daniel Abreu Marques: Can you give us a little bit of context how complicated this process is that you work now towards 2027? Rainer: Yeah, I already mentioned that AD vehicles are very new and they're not only new for us, they're also new for the regulation authorities. There's an autonomous driving regulation in Germany that's already, I think, three or four years old. So that's good for Germany. We were very early in understanding that this technology will come and hit us. And that regulation is very new. It has never been applied. To my knowledge, we are the only ones currently who are applying for a type approval in Europe. And so it's also new for authorities. For they would say ⁓ this has to drive 100,000 kilometers without any incident that Then ⁓ the authorities to define, okay, how do I test this? How do I make sure that this vehicle drives 100,000 kilometers without any incident? So do I need to have it driving 500,000 meters, 800,000, 1 million? I don't know. When can I be sure enough that the vehicle is safe? So these kind of things need to be defined right now. We are working with authorities. And this is, of course, one ⁓ the major processes that we are doing right now. ⁓ it's a kind of iterative way together with the authorities who are responsible for homologating the vehicle. But for us, it was always very clear we want to homologate it because homologation is necessary for scale. If you look at any AD project in Europe right now, they are all not type approved. They're all pilot projects based on test certifications, and that is just not scalable. So a lot of confusion sometimes. Some people say we are driving ⁓ Nobody's driving L4 in Europe because ⁓ L4 means safety driver is out. You are allowed to take the safety driver out and this is only with type approval So this is something that is very important for us and we take the complexities because we know it's worth it. Daniel Abreu Marques: Absolutely. And you already touched on projects, I like to continue on that theme. ⁓ So MOIA recently announced ⁓ the shuttle partnership in Oslo with Holo and Ruter ⁓ Can walk us through how this partnership is structured? So basically, who does what operationally and commercially, and why MOIA also chose this specific setup? Rainer: Mm. Yeah. Well, our current projects ⁓ ⁓ &D partnerships where we basically really try our technology. also, they help us to ⁓ towards homologation. If you think about the cities that we are currently testing in, that would be Hamburg and Munich. Munich is our test ⁓ field we do all kinds of off-road tests. We also drive publicly in Munich. We have Austin, Texas. We are already driving in LA where we will scale with Uber in LA. ⁓ also have pilot ⁓ in Berlin and in Oslo. So each of these, as you can see, are different climate zones and different environments, ⁓ wise, weather climate wise, as I said, also geographically, the kind of how people is very different. The road signage is different. So we try to... have been exposed to as versatile or as different various environments as possible. And Oslo, of course, we have very reliable snow in Oslo. These vehicles, you don't want to have them to be good weather vehicles. They are supposed to drive in all kinds of conditions. And this is why we are very happy to be in Oslo, where we can really test our vehicles and when the road is covered with snow or in very heavy snow weather. Daniel Abreu Marques: Okay. Okay. Rainer: that the sensors are still working and so on and so forth. So that's helpful. So how it's set up in Oslo, it's very simple. Holo already had a contract Ruter to perform their autonomous driving pilot. They have very active in this for a long time already. I think about eight years or so. have been active in doing various autonomous projects, which I experienced them as very visionary and very pragmatic. They basically say, ⁓ I certain targets in terms of CO2 emissions in terms of traffic policies that I have to fulfill. And without autonomous ride pooling, I just will not be able to do it. So I have to do it. And I need to find a way out to do it. So they have been experimenting with this for a long time. And they have very ambitious targets on how to scale this technology. And a couple of years ago, they asked, because they don't want to operate this themselves, they don't want to have people who manage those vehicles and who basically survey them the whole day and so on. So they asked someone to do it for them and they asked Holo and Holo jumped in and said, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to run it. So they have the Ruter branding on the vehicles and they are also running on Ruter But at the end, ⁓ people are operating the whole fleet. They are ⁓ checking the data. They clean them. They charge them, and so on and so forth. And now Ruter want to continue this ⁓ a different setup. so we got in touch with Holo. We contracted with them, and are now. Daniel Abreu Marques: . you Rainer: behalf of Ruter and we will even have Ruter customer sitting inside its cars in second half of the year. Daniel Abreu Marques: All right, thank you for this explanation. And you mentioned you have the several kind of locations, so Oslo, Munich, and so on. you clarify large the current fleet of the MOIA vehicles are in these different locations? Rainer: I don't know how many there are today. It's changing every day. I would say about a hundred ⁓ they are spread all over the place. I would say about 13 in Hamburg and altogether 16 Germany and 40 in the US. Also spread to be different locations there. mean, US is Austin and LA. Our LA operation will probably grow in the future because we are ⁓ supposed to. ⁓ really move into service there by the end of the year. So, there's a lot of stuff happening. ⁓ And yeah, again, it's really depending on ⁓ do we get the most test results. I think it's very important to go into ⁓ intensive situations when we have a ride where nothing happens, where everything goes smooth, we don't like it because we don't learn. Yeah. So anyone who tries to start to be happy, that was smooth enough, but for us, we want to have incidents. We want to have things happening so that we can improve the technology. Daniel Abreu Marques: . . Rainer: Of it's always safe. Don't worry. We have a safety driver on board. And I don't remember if we ever had an accident. It's very safe. But really, we want to understand how the vehicle is reacting, what it's doing, to experience more edge cases, and make sure that the vehicle knows how to handle these edge cases. And the more different locations I am, the better for the system to learn. So in different locations, you will have different probabilities of certain edge cases. Daniel Abreu Marques: you . Makes sense. And you mentioned all the US ⁓ test deployments, all with safety drivers currently. And from your perspective, do you have a rough timeline that you estimate when you can pull the safety driver out of those deployments? Rainer: Well, officially we can pull it out once we have the European type approval. that, ⁓ are allowed to take the safety driver out. We definitely make sure that we do it when we feel that it's safe enough. So there might some time ⁓ that we use ⁓ safety drivers. of course, target, and this is also a commercial ⁓ thing, this only sense we don't have drivers anymore in the cars. And ⁓ we, of course, aim do this as soon as possible. Daniel Abreu Marques: All right. And what are the biggest technical or also regular hurdles left before you can move the safety driver out? are there specific scenarios that are especially challenging? Rainer: No, it's not scenarios. mean, basically life is very colorful and when these cars drive through the city, all kinds of things can happen. Yeah. So, you know, we all know what it's like to drive in cities, especially lively cities like Hamburg, where you have people running on the street, people crossing the street when they have a red light. You have who are taking you from the right. Suddenly there's a lot of things that can happen and we want to make sure that these cars are ready to face this kind of traffic. ⁓ This is why we are testing it. We are not waiting for certain things to happen. We are just trying to capture as much of the various situations of life as possible to make sure that the cars are as in their performance and in their behavior as they can be. ⁓ at end of statistics, you need to prove certain mileage without any incidents, without any problems. There's a lot of other KPIs that we are looking at. And all these KPIs together at some point of time will tell us, okay, now we are ready and we will take the... Daniel Abreu Marques: All right. And you now often talked about your LA deployments with Uber, where you announced a strategic partnership to deploy the ID Buzz. And the test already started in late 2025, and you want to launch in 2026 as of the press release. What exactly is then MOIA's role in the setup? If you compare it to, for example, European partnerships, is it the same or is it kind bit different. Rainer: Yeah. So is the same thing. Of course, if look at Uber and compared to someone ⁓ who hasn't done kind of on-demand service before and who doesn't have the technology ready, Uber brings a lot of technology already. I mean, they have the Uber app and the Uber algorithms behind it that match write requests with writers in a very efficient matter, with super optimized ETAs and so on and so forth. So we will basically plug our vehicles into this platform. And ⁓ operational part will still be done via our software. So all the vehicle management, ⁓ knowing what's going on inside the vehicles, there will be a fleet control center that is run by the operators, so in this case by Uber. And they basically will manage the vehicles with our software. The mobility as a service part with matching rides and people ⁓ and vehicles, that will be done. Daniel Abreu Marques: Okay. you Rainer: by the Uber algorithms. If we talk about Europe, we have ⁓ different customers. In Europe, we all know that ⁓ overall traffic organizations are very different. In Europe, we often have public transport companies that are dominant in a certain city versus US, where you have the big ride-hailing companies who are basically providing the public transport in almost every city there. In Europe, we have Daniel Abreu Marques: . you Rainer: mostly talking to public transport companies. There's also more more private initiatives come up where people want to run this, could be coming from, say, a taxi business or they really want to move into the mobility business from scratch. And in this case, including public transport, we often have the chance provide them with a whole software set up, including the Mobility as a Service ⁓ software that we from our Hamburg operation ⁓ That is, of course, very interesting case for us. ⁓ In Uber case, we also learn lot from them. It's also very interesting. everything has its advantages, and we are really trying around. mean, you really have to know it's not only technology that is new. Also, the business is new. So everyone has to find their own ⁓ way in new commercial setup that we have here. We have a whole new disruptive ⁓ industry. ⁓ Daniel Abreu Marques: Okay. you Rainer: that will change a lot in our lives. as also with technology, it's also unknown who will own which part of the value chain, ⁓ will get their revenue from what kind of service or technology. So it's very, yeah, there's a lot of experimentation going on right now. And for us, it's really also very good to try different things and to see which works best for us and for the customer. Daniel Abreu Marques: And you mentioned that you learned something from Uber also in this partnership. Do you have particular interesting learning that you can share with us? Rainer: Yeah, I mean, you just have to imagine that they are doing this already for a while. They have a couple of partners and they are pretty experienced in what they're doing. That's it. mean, they're doing, I mean, we have done 12 million rides in Hamburg. They're probably doing 12 million rides, you know, in two hours or so in the US. So they have a lot of experience how the mechanics of this work. And it's a very fruitful relationship because we bring in our vehicle know-how, we bring in our vehicle management. or software and ⁓ bring in their know-how on how to operate a ride-hailing service. So ⁓ wouldn't say it's anything specific. It's like this kind of complementary kind skill that we both bring in and that we both profit from. Daniel Abreu Marques: And then going back to ⁓ the agencies or cities, what do you look in the city also in a public transport partner if you want to partner with And ⁓ how do you then tailor the solution to fit local needs and infrastructure? Rainer: Yeah, so for us, it's very important that when we go into a project that it's serious. ⁓ serious means ⁓ know why I'm doing it. ⁓ we have a lot of calls from people who have a lot of money and say, OK, I want to have like 1,000 cars from you. Can you just bring them here? want to do this. And then you ask, ⁓ reason do you have to do this? You have maybe drivers your country are not that expensive. ⁓ Cars are not so expensive. So why do you want to replace them with very expensive autonomous technology? And they would just say, oh, don't worry. I have the money. So you feel like, okay, after six months, I will lose my interest. And then they have another toy. I really look for use cases that make sense, right? We have a sustainable interest to run an autonomous mobility system. So I'll give you an example. had, um, last year I had a Japanese insurance sitting in front of me and they said, you know, we have a real problem. Um, in Japan, a lot of old people. Now there's a of old people in Japan and they make a lot of accidents. So we have to find something to replace the mobility for them. So they really have like a really deep reason to do this. Not only because it's fancy or because I've heard of it. I really think, okay, we have an economic problem and we need to solve it. We need to motivate these people to leave their cars and not make that many accidents anymore. so there's a lot of people who, Daniel Abreu Marques: Hmph. Rainer: that reasons and I'm looking for them also in Germany. The other thing is, of course, we need to fund this. So have already spent a lot of money on this to invest into this technology and we are really doing this for commercial reasons. So we need this to be funded. this is, of course, when we look at Public Transport, a big issue. You all know the situation there. And for us, very important that this doesn't lead to situations where we have like a lot of little meaningful projects where everyone has like two or three vehicles running around. And this is maybe the third criteria now is we have an impact. You make an impact. So if you have two or three vehicles running up and down the streets, well, after the journalists have disappeared, nobody probably realizes anymore that something is going on. But if you put 1,000, 2,000 vehicles in a city or in a region, then suddenly everyone realizes, yeah, this is here. This is actually happening and it's worthwhile and it makes sense and I can really use it and it helps me to move around. So we need projects with impact. This is a little bit of habit here, especially in Germany, where we want to give everybody a bit, ⁓ at the end we don't learn from it. We don't make an impact. Everything basically disappears after a while and the subsidy is stopped. We really want something that works that Daniel Abreu Marques: you you Rainer: We just give it a kick and then it will run by itself. And this only happens when you make a real impact and when you can feel that it's there and that it helps you to solve your mobility problems. So this is a little bit of the points over here in Europe. yeah, but we have a lot of interest from this industry. I have to say they're very curious, very open-minded. A lot of them ⁓ are really seriously investigating this. makes me very hopeful for the future in Germany. Daniel Abreu Marques: you mentioned that the cars are quite expensive, and maybe you cannot answer it. But I need to ask, is ⁓ a ballpark number the price the ID Buzz? ⁓ Rainer: Yeah, the cars have a price, but again, you won't get just get the cars. You need to buy the overall turnkey solution because again, the car doesn't know what to do. It can drive, but it doesn't know where to drive, what to do there and so on and where to stop and where to pick you up. And then it doesn't know who's entering the car. All this kind of software is part of it. This is a major part of our pricing. I can't say a pricing, but I can definitely say it's not. ⁓ something you would fall off your chair. So we are talking about series vehicles here that are produced on a production line where thousands of vehicles are produced every month or year. And this is pretty streamlined. It's not something that you build by hand, and that would be very expensive. So that's what I can say. Daniel Abreu Marques: Understood. And also public trust is a critical topic for every new mobility technology. at the IIA 2025, even government ministries or city officials took rights in your MOIA shuttles to experience the technology firsthand. How is MOIA working to build that public acceptance and also the confidence in this autonomous ride pooling solution? Rainer: Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's a very important part, actually, especially in this part of the world. I mean, I lived in China for a long time, for eight years or so. And in China, this is not a problem. People actually, they, they, they fear to miss something out rather than fear of something that, could hurt them or, or their risk. So basically, very opportunity driven. And, ⁓ you come to, to Europe, ⁓ you really feel that people, yeah, they, they, ⁓ kind of skeptical about new things and rather think about how that might hurt them rather than how that might help them in their life. we a lot to help with this. There's a lot of groups inside every city you should address. Let's, for example, talk anyone, first responders, for example, police, fire brigade, ⁓ ambulances. We have a lot workshops these people because the police, of course, they want to know what they do with these vehicles when they're... when they find one. And what is very interesting is people come there with lot of worries and they leave with a lot of smiles. ⁓ you want, you make the whole thing a bit more rational. Yeah. So ⁓ have already a lot of statistics. We have a lot of, ⁓ you really think through it, what ⁓ vehicles can do for you for the safety on our roads. ⁓ a lot of statistics out there, independent statistics from, for example, insurances. They must know it because they enjoy those cars. And they definitely say that If look, example, at Waymo, Waymo has a lot of statistics on that on their website, that those vehicles ⁓ far less accidents per mile driven ⁓ a human driver would do. And this something that really these kind people are impressed by. Once you rationalize the whole thing, take all the emotions out of it, people love it. And the actually very best way ⁓ to ⁓ make ⁓ people of way of moving is ⁓ getting them in of those cars. I do this a lot with our potential customers. don't know, I did like 50 or 60 rides with potential customers in our autonomous vehicles. And it's always interesting. always stop the time, how long it takes until they take out their mobile phone because they are so bored. Because these rides are very, very smooth. So they're very rational. There's no surprises that you would like experience, for example, when you drive in a taxi or in a ride-hailing car. I recently was in the... Daniel Abreu Marques: Okay. Rainer: San Francisco and I took a Uber ride to a Waymo Depot and the Uber ride, you know, I was so happy to be in a Waymo afterwards because these cars are driving very smooth, very rational, very clear. So you basically forget you are in a car. And this is why people after two minutes, they already take their mobile phone out because you know, nothing really is there. No, don't you worry about anything. Nothing is happening. And is exactly what we want. These cars don't drive slow. They really go with traffic. They go 50, 60, whatever is allowed. That's another thing. They never cross any traffic routes. They always keep the rules That can be a bit annoying sometimes. Remember, for example, there's a rule in Germany that you can only overtake a bicycle rider with a distance of 1,50 meters. Of course, nobody in Germany does it. Our cars do it. That can lead to a situation that when you are in a tight road, you have to maybe drive 400 meters or something behind a bicycle rider because you don't find the 1.50 to overtake them. And sometimes people get annoyed about our cars, but actually they're just keeping the traffic rules. That's it. so at the end, it's really about ⁓ showing getting people into the cars that really convinces them ⁓ and being rational about it, ⁓ taking all emotions out. ⁓ Just one last example about the police. ⁓ The police, tell us when they... ⁓ have their blue light on and they're running through Hamburg. They basically never know what's going on in front of them. Some people will break, some people accelerate, some go left, some go right, some follow them. And they say like, I always have to be very careful when I drive because it's very, it's very random how people react to this because they're shocked and don't know what to do. And they say if I have autonomous cars, it would be so easy. Everyone does the same thing. Everybody goes left and right and I just need to go straight and everything would be very easy. I don't have any surprises. So people really realize those cars will do a lot of good and rationalization of our traffic. And a lot of traffic jams actually also come from irrational behavior because people change lanes for no reason and then everything behind them backs up. So all of this will disappear. And this, think, really convince us people. So we do workshops with these people. We do workshops with politicians, with government, also, of course, with the public. We try to explain what we are doing, why we are doing, how we are Daniel Abreu Marques: you Rainer: involved in safety, important safety for us, how we measure it. And think, really the last sentence, the most important thing is you're very transparent about it. Even if you are bad, people want to see an improvement and they want to see that you are transparent about what you do. And once you're transparent, they will trust you. And even if you have an incident, there will be trust at the end. Daniel Abreu Marques: Absolutely. Yeah, transparency is for sure key. Staying maybe in China, because you mentioned you lived in China. It's often said that Europe is a risk lagging behind the US and also in China when it comes to autonomous vehicles. So those countries have companies that have locked tens of millions of driverless miles. And we, as you said earlier, have mostly smaller scale pilots. From your point of view, what is the state of the European AV ecosystem right now? And maybe also what are Europeans European strength more or less and where does Europe need to catch up? Rainer: Mm. Yeah, this is a, can talk, we can make our own podcast about that one. I think, I ⁓ mean, Europe definitely has a chance. There's a lot of companies that are working in this domain of autonomous driving ⁓ and that have very good technology. We always, where we always get trouble is once we want to grow, once the thing gets to certain critical mass. And that has certain that come from our structure, we deal with innovation, but also our financing structure. We don't really have financing structures that can finance large asset-heavy ventures that has an ⁓ result. There's ⁓ not really like, know, as soon as you go beyond 50, 60, 80 million euros, it gets really difficult for a startup to get money because we just don't have those private financing structures that, for example, are existing in the US, where you have all these pension funds, these university funds who really have billions lying around for who like 200, 300 million dollars is not a lot of money. So we lack a little bit of structure to support those kind of companies. ⁓ what I said before, we don't dare to ⁓ on one card. really want to have everyone should have a little bit and ⁓ be really be first be careful and let's try everything. And we don't have that also, I guess, that culture of making mistakes and starting from scratch again. So when I do something, it needs to be right. But if you look at China or at the US, they live a lot from starting again, making a mistake and starting again, making this mistake and starting again. So it's really a lot more try and error. It's ⁓ much more common to try things very early, even they still have caveats, even when they're still not super ⁓ well But this gives them a lot of lessons learned and helps them to learn faster. This is also where we maybe Europe have to catch up. think I mentioned before that we already have a regulation and we didn't have the technology yet. So we like to talk about things that we don't know very well and that we don't know what they will do. For example, if you remember like a couple of years ago, we had a discussion in Germany about how should we regulate these scooters to rent that would come everywhere. number plate should they be able to go on bicycle lanes, should they have light or not, do need a driver license or should they have a speed limit, whatever. They discussed about all kinds of stuff and nobody had ever tried one. There was none of them there. So we'd like to talk a lot about things that might happen, that could happen, we make scenarios, but at the end, the Chinese and the US do, they just try it and they see very different things and they learn from it very fast, improve it, learn from it ⁓ fast, improve it. I think this culture together with the with a very well structured and ⁓ financing background helped these regions to lead this game right now. And in Europe, we still have a chance. mean, we are far. We are the first ones, I guess, who do a type approval in Europe. This is a great for us. ⁓ We play our rules in Europe. We are from Europe. We know very well how things work here. It's also very unique here. We have the different countries with the different... And in Europe, we still have a mean, we are pretty far. We are the first ones, I guess, who will do a type approval in Europe. This is great chance for us. ⁓ We play our rules in Europe. We are from Europe. We know very well things work here. you know, ⁓ environments, political setups, some are, you know, whatever, pure democracy, some are constitutional monarchies, then we have cultures, have, you know, people in the South, people in North, everything is very different in Europe, we can deal with this. And this, think, can make us very successful over here in Europe, and from there also somewhere else, why not? Daniel Abreu Marques: Absolutely. we also see ⁓ more and more Chinese ⁓ entering Europe. Is MOIA I would say afraid maybe a big word, but ⁓ are you concerned that can come to Europe and then use their field tested technology maybe become faster here? ⁓ Rainer: I know, I mean, I think ⁓ is what it is. We need to prove that we are as good as them and then I'm not worried. ⁓ I mean, also, ⁓ I remember I came to China, I had a lot of trouble to get used to their way of doing business, which is very uncommon and unique for Germans. ⁓ You really to get used to it. the same with be the case for them. also will have to get used to our way of doing business. they also will have, I guess they ⁓ lessons learned and I think that they will have to keep up at this stage ⁓ the ⁓ They might a very good mature technology that is proven in China, but on the other hand, they need to understand how to do business here. So I think everybody has their little hiccups and their little difficulties. I'm not so worried. again, we can also learn from them. can look at them. We can learn from each other. we also, at the course, we have to compete with them. I'm not so worried. I actually think that's very good for us because, as I said before, I think... ⁓ About a year ago, nobody would understand. I showed up somewhere and said, OK, we have this autonomous technology. They would look at me as if I just came from Mars. they were, what do you mean, autonomous technology? And within a year, this has changed totally. Customers are now informed. They are interested. They know what they want. And this is also a result of the Chinese running around explaining what they are doing and also showing it. I they already have some showcases in Europe, too. That helps the whole industry. It's always good, you know, when you start something on scratch or on something very disruptive, where people in Europe actually are more afraid of than curious about if someone you to show these people the way and to build the customer base together. Daniel Abreu Marques: Absolutely. And maybe one more question to the ride pooling that came into my mind right now. You mentioned that ride pooling more or less is you try to pool different ⁓ customers that are more or less on the same route. But I would imagine that be able to do that, maybe the ⁓ trip must get a bit longer. So ⁓ you have some ⁓ of metrics or thresholds where you say, the trip can only be x minutes longer than initially planned so that the customer will accept it or what is it? Rainer: Yeah, this is something you can in our software. This is exactly ⁓ our software does. It helps you to configure your service. basically have a, ⁓ you it the service triangle. You have a triangle of three parameters where you have targets that you probably want to achieve with that service. So one is you want to be profitable. The other one is you want to have an ⁓ amazing level, meaning what you just said, you don't want people to drive around for hours just to pick up other people before they arrive at their goal. So you want to have. straightforward and very direct service. And then also sometimes you want to fulfill certain, let's say, political or transportation goals. You want to serve certain areas, for example, the countryside, who doesn't have a lot of public transport. So you want to have the countryside to also be connected to the city, usually is not super, let's it gives you a lot of revenue, but you want to help ⁓ or there's a political goal to this area. So these three targets. have to be put into balance. And you always have to decide, OK, if I want to have a great service and I want to have one car per person, then I need a lot of cars on the street. But then my profitability will suffer. But if I extend it too far into the countryside, then all these vehicles that I put on the street will dilute all over the surface. So there's a lot of optimization that you have to do between those parameters. And we have a very cool team that that knows very well how to deal with this and how to set the parameters in the right way. They will work with you, like, what is exactly your here? What do you want to achieve? Do you rather want ⁓ promote an underserved area, or do you rather want to really make money, or do you really ⁓ want to offer a good service, or to strike a balance between all these trees? And then you can basically set the parameters in the right way so that customers don't feel it too much. I if I use MOIA When I used MOIA in Hamburg, I can't imagine many where I was alone. Last time I even booked a ride for five people and there was six people put into our car. it's quite amazing what this algorithm does. And it works of course, the better the denser the city is because the more probability is there that you find a ride that goes the same direction. It's really the algorithm that does the magic of making people feel it's as direct as possible while still taking up several people during the ride. So that's quite amazing. And I would say it's result of the 12 million rides that we have and the algorithm that has been improved based on this data. Daniel Abreu Marques: And then these parameters are basically completely different for the different cities you're working with. Rainer: Yeah. Yeah. So when we give this product to customers, we will work with them. That's part of this operator enablement, we call it, where we basically tell them, OK, now you get the software, so how do you want to run it? What's your target? What do you want to achieve here? Which area do you want to surface? How many cars? And then we can basically help them to understand how to set the parameters in the right way so that it helps them. So every city might have different. different targets. For example, some passenger transport companies would tell us, OK, I don't want you to offer a ride when there's a Buzz line on same connection. This kind of stuff. So you can do all these kind of things to make sure that this service fits into your existing transportation setup and basically supports that rather than cannibalizing it. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, that's really interesting. Then maybe my last question for you today, which a bit a broader question. So maybe you could also talk a lot about it. But if could change one thing at the European level tomorrow to accelerate autonomous mobility, ⁓ what would be? Rainer: Well, I would take a serious amount of money embedded on two or three cities in Europe and would make two or three projects that have a real impact in these cities, that are visible, that change the way how people move, that change the way how people look at transportation. This is very important. I don't want to have an engine that I want to start all the time. Again, again, I want the engine running by itself. And this you can only achieve once the transportation shows that your offer is meaningful. And for this, would love if the European Union says, OK, let's take some serious money. And is just the case of what it is. It's just a pretty expensive technology to build it. And let's put it into two or three cities. Let's put like two or 3000 vehicles into two or three cities. And then the rest will just follow. I mean, once the cities are working and that the service is working there, people love it. Other cities will come and do the same. So let's really put these lighthouses out there that everybody can see that everybody can feel what it means to have it. And that will kickstart this industry in Europe. Daniel Abreu Marques: That would be great. It would be great if one of those cities would be Stuttgart so that I can also take a ride. Rainer: Yeah, definitely. We would be happy to talk to them. mean, you have no idea. since, I mean, the German government actually has, I mean, if you look at the ⁓ government's coalition contract, they have a target of exactly doing Having two or three, they call it model regions where they seriously want to implement this traffic. And trust me, every there's people coming to us and saying, we want to be one model region. Can you help us? So. ⁓ We are not going to decide this. The government is going to decide this. of course, we are happy to tell everyone what it means to do that, how it work. And we are happy to work. We have done workshops with a couple of cities already where we explain them how it would work, what they would have to do to become a model region in Germany. But at the end, not us. We don't decide this. So we can just tell them this is what it would look like. think about yourself if you want to do it or not ⁓ and everything else is up to you. You need to do all your best to become. Daniel Abreu Marques: Amazing. So Rainer, this was it from my end. Thank you really much for this interesting episode, for this interesting conversation and your experiences shared ⁓ MOIA. Really great that MOIA is ⁓ one of the leading European players and has tried to bring this technology to European cities, but also US cities for sure. Rainer: Hmm. Daniel Abreu Marques: Hopefully, I see you soon here in the podcast again with a lot of updates and success stories from MOIA. And thanks again that you took the time today to share your experience with us. Rainer: Yeah. Thanks a lot. Happy to be here. Happy to come back. There's a lot on the plate for this year. So you will probably be amazed. So yeah, it will be a great year. Thank you. Daniel Abreu Marques: Thank you.