Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / 20yrs prison- helps rebuild community with policy changes - Tony Gant

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20yrs prison- helps rebuild community with policy changes - Tony Gant · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when he works here? Becomes your reality.
0:04
Hi. I'm Brian Cassidy.
0:05
Welcome to the nightmare. Success in and out podcast,
0:08
where we explore a, how to overcome your fears.
0:11
And Nightmares is set yourself free.
0:13
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:15
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
0:20
These stories can be inspiring. Sometimes sad, there's some
0:24
humor but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something
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that will help you knock down some of the prisons.
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You Built up in your own mind. All right.
0:36
Nightmare success and out listeners.
0:37
We are back and I've got a treat for you guys.
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So I got what I've got to get a shout-out to Marvin cotton jr.
0:45
For those who've listened to this program, he's as an
0:49
incredible story, wrongly accused of murder finally gets
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out after 20 years. Doing incredible things.
0:57
He's a he's a fancy author. Now March and all over the place
1:01
with better not broken. So anyway, Marvin Talk
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frequently and he's, oh, Brittany said, you've got to
1:08
talk. You've got to talk to Tony,
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Gant, he said he's doing big things in Michigan.
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He's working and advocating for formerly.
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Incarcerated I said, oh my gosh. Yeah, Marv anybody?
1:20
That Marvin gives me? I'm like, yes, let's go.
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So give you a little background on Tony here.
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Tony was incarcerated. Michigan Department of
1:31
Corrections for 20 years from 95 to 2015.
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He's organized successful campaigns around housing
1:38
employment for directly impacted people.
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Tony is 2021 Elite leading with conviction, fellow with Justice
1:47
leadership, USA. He's a father he's an author
1:51
midnight Whispers go check that out.
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He's also an owner of a lawn care service.
1:56
Gant law. Care at Gant lock lawn care.
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So, Tony is also the director of policy and programs operations.
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Is that Nation outside a nonprofit organization that
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advocates for the rights of formerly?
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Incarcerated, persons can't wait to jump into all this Tony and I
2:14
were talking just a little bit before this.
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from Nightmare success since you, okay?
3:11
Folks, let's get into this Tony, Gant, welcome in Thank you.
3:17
Thank you so much and good morning to everybody and I
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appreciate your time, Brent. I'm excited, right?
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Let's have a great conversation. Well, I am too.
3:28
I am too. I don't know what they're doing
3:30
in Michigan, but everybody that I have talked to, from Marvin to
3:35
Darryl. Now you you guys, you don't let
3:38
any grass grow under your feet, you take the hits and get back
3:42
up and keep making changes. And you really like, you and I
3:48
were talking about Tony one of the things that I want to get
3:52
into today. We'll get into it, but we were
3:55
talking about all the great things that you're doing now.
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But you said, hey Brent, it wasn't easy and, and getting in
4:01
wasn't easy. And getting out was an easy.
4:05
Let's talk, let's go back a little ways.
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Let's, let's get people introduce Tony into because you
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basically said you kind of grew up in prison So before prison
4:18
Tony Gant growing up as a kid, what was that?
4:22
Like I grew up in a small town called Albion Michigan in.
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My grandmother raised me. So that was my father's mother.
4:38
So I had you know, why we grew up poor?
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There was a lot of love, I had a lot of love, my grandmother was
4:48
my angel and so we grew, I grew up in some housing.
4:53
X's in the 70s. It was fun.
4:57
Right? We were all young and primarily
5:01
black. But, you know, we had a lot of
5:04
fun. We went out to play every day
5:06
and that was my grandmother's. Mantra often go outside to play,
5:10
go outside. Absolutely, absolutely.
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And so, I transition some to some time with my father and
5:20
lived in Chicago, and my mother lived.
5:23
Jackson, Who primarily I was with my grandmother and
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helpless. So your grandmother was just a
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big player in your life and absolutely simple.
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Sibley's wise, Tony brothers, sisters, Absalom of the side
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there are seven of us in total. Well, I'm the old one.
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Yep, seven of us in total. I have a sister that's over,
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didn't he? And then there's me and
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everybody else's under me though.
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So there are three, boys, and four.
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Girls. That's a huge.
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That's a good good says family. So so as you got into the world
6:01
of being a kid going to school, what was your school life?
6:06
How did that all interplay with you?
6:09
Yeah. School was it was fine.
6:12
I wouldn't say school was a huge problem.
6:18
I ultimately graduated in 1991, but I couldn't walk because I
6:24
was in the county jail at that time for a drug charge is a gun
6:28
charge. So I couldn't, I did not
6:30
actually walk the stage but I did actually graduated in 91.
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I think beginning high school was was pretty typical.
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I started, you know, really focused on my academics, a lot
6:47
of college by all classes, but that waned, as I got an
6:51
opportunity to learn what it was, Like to sell drugs, right?
6:54
That was that was feeling of having some power and some
7:00
notoriety that, you know, I was kind of invisible before.
7:04
They're so Tony. Let's talk let's talk about that
7:06
a little bit because as you know you talking about Grandma saying
7:10
hey go out play. When you went out to play did it
7:14
become just really natural for you to fall into that world of
7:19
the neighborhood people that were they Did you fall into
7:23
people that were doing that and became very easy for you to get
7:26
involved in that? Or how did that come to you?
7:31
Well that we kind of all grew up together.
7:32
I'll be there is a small town. Yeah.
7:34
It is pretty close-knit and as some of my early childhood
7:39
friend began to I remember a friend and I was still very
7:45
dedicated to school at this point dropped out of high school
7:49
and I was like, you know, talking to him.
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We grew up together and I'm like, bro, what are you doing?
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Yeah, we're dropping out of school and he told me bluntly
7:58
like already know. How to count.
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I don't need school anymore. I can count and he was doing
8:04
really well selling drugs. Yeah.
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And so yeah. Well that would think that
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that's a big deal to somebody starts selling drugs and they're
8:11
making money when when the round the group doesn't really have
8:15
that much money that I mean. Absolutely that stands out.
8:19
I mean, how does it, how do you miss that?
8:21
Yeah yeah. So as time goes, you've had a
8:25
little bit of experience with the law. if I remember your
8:33
After High School that transition between that time
8:37
period, that you get the sentence to that what's going on
8:39
in your world, So fun story, right?
8:46
So I as I mentioned, I graduated in 91.
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I was accepted to Western, but I never went, okay.
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I hadn't been rolling in another College in outside of Chicago,
9:01
called The Ride, the right Institute, right?
9:05
So I'm really selling drugs. But, you know that Expectation
9:11
for my grandmother was that I would go to college.
9:13
I would be first generation. All right, so I'm trying to meet
9:16
that expectation while also pursuing this.
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This idea in my mind I'm going to be this huge drug dealer.
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So I probably attended, maybe two classes in total at the
9:27
ride, I had a room and everything and talk to sorority
9:30
people but I was that like was not interesting at all.
9:34
I was constantly on the freeway back to Michigan.
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Yeah, so lead us into The world of when your nightmare fell on
9:43
him, like you're in the world of dealing drugs.
9:46
Do you know that you're in a situation?
9:49
Where do you think you're being investigated?
9:52
How does how does this happen? And how does this go down for
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you Tony? So, As I continued kind of down
10:06
that path, obviously, I just stopped going to school in
10:10
total. There was no need to keep
10:12
driving back over to go to go to class A lot of my I just yeah I
10:18
just got more and more and less than that life and you know drug
10:24
dealing is not, you know what we see on the movies, it happened,
10:30
ups and downs and you know, there were some up Oops.
10:33
And finally, I went back, I caught another drug test on the
10:40
freeway. I end up getting sent to boot
10:45
camp. Okay?
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In Michigan. So I don't do the boot cab and
10:50
get out on Tether, pretty much convinced that it was, it was
10:55
pretty short, stay. It was pretty easy to get
10:57
through papen and do the tether. But if I understand that Tony,
11:02
if I understand You can't because there's a couple people
11:04
that are that have been through the boot camp.
11:06
They they're more or less saying this is going to be hardcore
11:10
military style and you get two or three strikes and you're out.
11:14
And you got to serve the full sentence.
11:16
But if you don't, and you stay with it.
11:18
And, you know, it's like a few months or a year, or whatever,
11:21
and then you've got probation or whatever, is that kind of, what
11:24
what that was about? It was basically a 90-day
11:27
program. Got it to get away from a
11:29
two-year sentence. Got it is honestly, as long as
11:33
you do your 90 90 days. You're compliant.
11:37
You don't get the two years. Yeah, you know.
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Absolutely. So you're released after those
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thinking was 91 days on house on a tether and with a parole
11:51
officer. And so I went through that
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process and you know, I find, you know, supervision is
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interesting thing, right? Being at that point, I was
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required to pay a lot of money every week for the tether, my
12:11
parole officer knew I didn't have any employment but I was
12:14
still able to pay this money every week and there was just
12:18
like a tacit agreement like okay just make sure you pay your
12:20
money without any questions, right?
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And so you know my parole officer will comment often that
12:29
you dress better than me blah blah blah blah.
12:31
It was never was just like, okay.
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Just don't go any further than that, right?
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And so I got off of that tether and you know like went on this
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the case that led me to the 20-year sentence was just in
12:52
that life it was just in that light that disagreement continue
12:58
to spiral to other things and it led to Violent Moment One.
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And yeah, I left and went on a run to Atlanta.
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So I spent a couple months in Atlanta on the run which was
13:15
kind of fun actually came back to Michigan in.
13:21
Absolutely, as soon as I was back in Michigan, I was
13:24
arrested. There was it, did you know that
13:26
Tony wouldn't? Because I've talked to, a couple
13:28
of people, Seth Ferrante, and a couple other people, he was
13:33
actually most most wanted. And so, it was Danny Cox, you
13:36
know, they said they got tired of living or they got really
13:40
loose with living on the Run. Did you, why did you go back?
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So I came back up to do something with a friend, okay.
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He was telling me about this opportunity.
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So I was going to come back up and we will take advantage of
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the opportunity and I was go, go back to Atlanta while I was up
14:01
here in this back in Michigan, really unwise.
14:05
That was really on y. So my part I was, I was
14:07
absolutely arrested. I think it was maybe a third
14:11
day, I was back. So what happened?
14:13
Did they just surround your car or did they?
14:14
How did you get away? They came to the house.
14:17
I was at. I was at my sister's house.
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I'm not sure, like how was that out?
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There were absolutely got out that I was back and no police.
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Absolutely. They were serious and they came.
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And, and that, that was my last day of Freedom until 2015.
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Wow. So going in to this world, this
14:38
I had this has got to feel different to you, Tony, I mean
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this or did it feel different to you?
14:44
Did you know that this was going to be a This isn't a 90-day boot
14:47
camp thing. This is this feels different.
14:49
This is their acting different. I'm looking at more time.
14:54
Was that going through your mind?
14:57
Thanks. I knew it was a severe charge I
15:04
think I was just too young to understand what 20 years is I
15:09
hadn't really been a functional. I had been on my own long enough
15:14
to understand what 20 years was. I didn't know my own a couple of
15:18
years, right living independently.
15:20
So I had no idea what what 20 years was really.
15:24
Like as far as the severity of the charge.
15:27
Absolutely. They they were trying to get
15:30
More time and they were absolutely not interested in any
15:36
plea deals. So it was.
15:38
Yeah, it was absolutely as a very serious situation.
15:41
Did you was it an assault charge or what you said?
15:44
It was a violent charge? What do they actually charge?
15:47
You, they charged me with assault with attempt to commit
15:50
murder. Okay, so so they were serious.
15:53
Yeah, they're really trying to get you down to serving big
15:56
time. I can't, I can't imagine And you
16:01
know, you and I talked a little bit about this Tony before we
16:03
got on because, you know, I think everybody when you get
16:08
sentenced like to me getting a five-year sentence I couldn't
16:13
imagine going going any more time than I did you getting.
16:17
And from 95 to 2015, I just stop.
16:20
And think about what in the world changed from 95 to 2015?
16:26
Almost like the whole world changed, you know, there really
16:29
was an internet. That there really wasn't much
16:31
cell phones. I mean, what changed from 95 to
16:35
2015 in the world of technology and how we live?
16:38
I can't even imagine. So you going in at whatever,
16:42
that your young age of 20, something basically growing up
16:45
in there, walking into that world Tony And understanding
16:52
that this was going to be your life for a while.
16:58
Did you walk in thinking anything?
17:00
What like what was your first day?
17:01
Like going in there in Michigan you when you're young, your
17:09
first, let's see. Did I go to Riverside?
17:14
According to your mail, went to Riverside for quarantine and
17:17
then I went to Mr. Which was the Michigan.
17:21
Reformatory was a prison for young people that were easy.
17:26
These are serving long. Has the time or who had gotten a
17:31
lot of trouble another facility. So they were, they were also
17:35
there so prison, as a young person at Mr. Was was, was, was
17:42
interesting because you had a lot of young folks, early,
17:47
teens, early twenties with basketball, score senses or life
17:52
without the possibility of parole.
17:55
And so that was a different environment.
17:58
One I had to get used to it. Get used to quickly.
18:02
Yeah, in. So that I'll say one of the
18:07
things that I think maybe a couple of years in people used
18:11
to come in from the yard and I wouldn't, you know, there was a
18:15
saying back. Then I want to say it was like,
18:18
all day all day, because everybody will servant so much
18:22
time. Yeah.
18:24
And in young, the young men there with me.
18:27
Met that that time, when this test of bravado, because I think
18:33
it was again, it was just too much to wrap their head around,
18:36
right? So, how did you talked about?
18:42
As going in there, that is some point because I sure your your
18:47
mind was trying to wrap around. Okay, I'm in here.
18:50
You basically been alive for 20 years now.
18:52
They're going to give you 20 years but you became a reader at
18:56
some point. Right.
18:58
Also, how far into the to your prison world?
19:02
Did that start for you? I'm still a pretty early on
19:08
write that. As I mentioned I would say one
19:14
of the last things because I bought a typewriter and all that
19:18
other stuff there are. When you go to prison, all these
19:20
things back then that you wanted to have and TV was last on my
19:25
list. And so, because TV was last, my
19:28
list, I was more concerned with my case and that was one of the
19:31
ways. I wrap my mind around that 20
19:34
years since It was that there was an opportunity to get this
19:38
reversal and go back to court. Yeah, get your sentence reduced.
19:42
Just all those things help. Those years probably end up your
19:47
time, focusing on that right to stand on that appeal.
19:51
Really trying to learn the law. Yeah.
19:54
And so that benefited in a lot of other ways so later on.
19:58
Yeah, did you have any mentors in there?
20:01
Tony the, like people that That you sought out like, how they
20:07
were doing their time. Or did you just decide?
20:09
This is how I'm doing my time and this became Tony's time.
20:13
Absolutely, you. Develop you grow up with people,
20:17
you be able to build really strong relationships and bonds.
20:22
You become like family and for a lot of us that were at Mr. In
20:27
those early 90s still holds today, right?
20:32
We learned the law together, talk about our cases together
20:36
and what was going on in family, and that's how that that was
20:41
absolutely. A family and still violent.
20:45
And as far as mentors I think for my experience and I'm not
20:51
saying this is probably pretty unique.
20:54
I did have a number of people that saw a lot of potential in
20:59
me and, you know, they poured into me in a lot of different
21:03
ways. What about your prison work?
21:08
You have prison job that I'm sure you've probably had a lot
21:11
of different prison jobs. So yeah, my one of my first year
21:17
so I'm coming in with a high school diploma with some college
21:20
experience. So my first job I believe in
21:24
prison was as a tutor. Yeah.
21:26
So I'm trying to teach people the skills, they need to get a
21:30
GED from there, I became a clerk and then after becoming a clerk,
21:35
I basically spent the rest of my time doing lawn work.
21:40
Yeah. But other people, which would
21:43
then Then a very sought-after thing in prison.
21:46
Somebody that knows the law little bit and it can help them
21:49
with some or you know, file a motion or any of those things
21:52
that's like gold in prison which also which also earns you
21:56
respect to Tony that, you know, one of the things that, you
22:00
know, it's a primitive environment prison.
22:02
But there is that, that level of respect and if you're one of
22:05
those person, you're a person that walks with that type of
22:09
respect prison. Is not as bad as those people
22:15
don't have that respect because if you don't have that respect
22:18
in prison, you can I think live some dark hours?
22:22
Definitely, definitely in prison.
22:25
Let me not I don't want to talk about prison through any type of
22:29
rose-colored glasses. My first years in my sauce to a
22:35
pretty horrific stabbings never sauce that was before.
22:39
Yeah but yeah something pretty terrific staff.
22:42
Some pretty brutal stuff and you learn just how violent person
22:48
can be from living there. Yeah, I mean, it's the talking
22:55
about, you know, stabbings I mean you you live in that world.
23:00
So you have to figure out how do I live in this world, when this
23:03
is actually what's going on in this world and it sounds like to
23:06
me that you kind of carved out an area for yourself, Tony of
23:10
things that you You knew and you could help with whether it be
23:15
tutoring or helping people file things.
23:19
When was it that you found out that you weren't going to get
23:22
out with with your emotions? How far along?
23:26
Did you go with that? Wow, that's a great question
23:30
bridge. I think I fought Let's see.
23:36
I think a DPA came out in what year was that 96?
23:46
And that put a limit on the amount of time.
23:50
You had to file your habeas petition, from your state court
23:54
conviction, and I want to stay with 96, didn't make, it may
23:57
have been 98. It was somewhere in there.
24:00
And so, when I left Mr. I went to Jackson and Jackson is
24:05
notorious and Michigan, as a prison system.
24:08
So, I left him are on the toria's prison for young people.
24:11
And with this prison, that was Notorious For adult people and I
24:18
ended up getting a job. Another job is is what they call
24:22
a legal writer. So I worked in the law library
24:24
in Jackson. And again, I'm still helping
24:27
people with their cases, still trying to work on my eventually.
24:32
I lost I filed my habeas petition.
24:36
I think I'm not a deadline but obviously I was denied by the
24:42
district court and when I went to the sixth circuit on my nose
24:46
to appeal and they deny, they found my certiorari, they denied
24:50
it and that was pretty much the end of the road because I
24:52
already filed a collateral petition in State Court.
24:56
There were no other options for me and so I kind of accepted
25:02
that yeah, in this world. Then we see, probably 2001 2002.
25:09
It was like, yeah, this is pretty much it.
25:12
So, how did that affect your time and mindset?
25:15
Because I mean, I can't, you know, I would assume Tony that
25:19
that time that you had from 95 to 2000. 12 is your you're all
25:24
geared and that's you know, you go to bed thinking, okay?
25:26
I got this or go wake up thinking.
25:28
I'm going to work on this. That's over.
25:31
Did you? You have a hard time With that
25:34
adjustment of. Okay, now I'm just doing time,
25:39
how did you readjust that? Because I, I'm a big believer
25:43
that you can't do time looking at 10 or 15 years, or for me, it
25:47
was, you know, two or three years.
25:49
You have to do it one day at a time.
25:51
You know, try to get through that, find something good.
25:53
Move to the next day. And that.
25:54
Now you've got a new season now. It's spring.
25:56
Now it's some, it's really weird how you count time and and in
26:00
prison because he thought I only got one more winner or whatever.
26:04
You do but absolute for you Tony that had to because you still
26:10
looking at a lot of time, did you or did you readjust
26:14
yourself? Strategy-wise mindset wise, did
26:17
you go down? Did you get depressed?
26:19
I mean, I can't imagine really kind of what that that turn was
26:23
for you. There.
26:25
So at that point, I really embraced doing the bit, right?
26:32
And I know that made you a terminology that people aren't
26:35
really familiar with but I really transition into just with
26:40
light years in prison. Yeah, when I talk to young
26:45
people in like jails and talk to them about, you know, their
26:48
faces serious time, I talk to them about things that you just
26:52
kind of fall into as you're doing your time.
26:54
Time whether or not you're you're as I was doing you know,
26:58
long work and exercising and my sport.
27:02
Yeah. And and you know there's a sport
27:05
basically for every season. Yeah.
27:08
And you get really like just into that bit into those
27:12
habitual days and official season and my big went.
27:17
Yeah. You know it's funny because I
27:19
was I was just re-watching Shawshank Redemption which I
27:22
also saw that when I was Prison, which was weird but Morgan
27:27
Freeman. There's so many different lines
27:29
in that movie but one that really sticks out to me is that
27:33
he's talking to Andy when he first gets there.
27:35
And he says, you know, you look at these walls, you look around.
27:39
And when you first get here you look at them as it there to keep
27:43
you in and he said the longer you're here.
27:45
They're like the arms give you comfort to stay yet.
27:49
And it's, you know, I, I see what you're saying Tony about.
27:54
That you know, fallen into your bit because you can really fall
27:59
into all the sports things. All the work out things, you
28:02
know all the different things that happened because it happens
28:06
on schedule. You know, everybody walks at the
28:09
same time Everybody Eats at the same spot everybody shout you
28:13
shower at this, you know it's you get into these weird
28:17
routines and I think some of the routines are for you believing
28:23
Personally that you are in control of something when you
28:26
really not, but you are, it's your schedule, you know, the
28:30
only thing that knocks the hell out of that schedule is when
28:32
they lock you down and ruins the whole day.
28:35
And you, you know, right. Realize you can't watch the
28:37
world series on TV or whatever it is, you realize that that
28:41
schedule that you think you own? All of a sudden, you know, the
28:44
siren goes off a lockdown and there you are but let's talk
28:49
about you getting close to the Or to your freedom, what?
28:56
Because, I think I forgot to ask you Tony, with, with the family
29:01
that you had, was such a large family.
29:03
Did you stay connected into that world?
29:05
Or were you into only the prison world and became unconnected
29:09
from the outside? Yeah.
29:12
So I had during my incarceration.
29:17
Pretty good family support. Can I have a had a sister that
29:23
was, she's a twin and she was, you know, pretty much there as
29:29
much as she could be there my grandmother, obviously, after
29:32
she passed away, was there as much as she could be.
29:35
And I had an aunt and some cousins.
29:38
So I had a pretty good family support.
29:42
A lot of people don't, absolutely absolutely.
29:45
Absolutely. Yep.
29:47
During much of much of that incarceration period because I
29:51
think Tony what I always thought was is, I was very lucky on, on
29:55
visits, and that and I always felt like that visit Almost was
30:02
like, you kind of almost straddle the fence to be able to
30:05
touch the outside because you know, you were hearing things
30:09
and you know it was just it felt different than being inside
30:12
prison and and then when that visit was over you you know you
30:16
got sucked back into the prison world.
30:18
But I do think there's something about that to have that visit
30:23
and that connection that you feel like your when you make
30:27
that adjustment to the outside you've had some contacts.
30:30
So you're not totally a in capsulized, into The the world
30:36
of prison? Yeah, I've never really thought
30:40
deeply about. Wow, I think is great and I
30:45
think it's important that people keep connections with their
30:48
family for the purposes of ultimately becoming a better
30:53
person as far as the biz's. I don't know.
30:57
They were always such weird things in the more you get of
31:00
them and then just to return, the prison was always child.
31:04
So you go back to the Relate back to the Block.
31:07
It's like I'm back. I mean yeah.
31:09
Yeah. A real Downer.
31:12
Yeah. Real Downer and some people
31:14
decided they didn't want that. You know that I know two or
31:19
three guys that said it was just too tough and want to just not
31:22
to be just want to do their time and be done and and they'd
31:26
figure it out later because they didn't, they it was too tough
31:31
for them to see the people that they loved and There's a lot
31:36
there's a lot that goes on there.
31:37
I mean there's a lot that that happens in that world.
31:41
Yeah, I remember visit towards the end of my time and my
31:47
grandmother passed away a year before I was released.
31:51
And so that has to be so tough, Tony somebody that will die and
31:56
while you're in prison and somebody like that because that
32:00
was my mother, right? Yeah.
32:02
That's what they people passed away.
32:05
I'm doing that 20 years obviously but nobody got close.
32:08
Yeah, and so towards the end, she would my grandmother know,
32:14
never learned to drop, right? So she's got middle school, but
32:19
she was like this amazing woman. So she never learned to drive
32:22
and she would always either my aunt would bring her, or she
32:26
would catch a ride with a friend.
32:28
And so towards the end, she had a cane and it was really hard
32:31
for her to move around, but she's so, so, one day she
32:34
decides Is that she's going to ride up to see me?
32:37
I was in level one in Jackson and she comes and I don't even
32:41
know she's coming. I wish I could have told her not
32:44
to come, but she came and she by herself and she had all these,
32:48
you had to get these prison token.
32:50
So you can get to the vending machine.
32:52
She was the person that she was gonna give me all the stuff out
32:55
of the vending machine, and she was struggling at the vending
32:59
machine, and then in the visiting room as a prisoner, you
33:04
can't get up. Right?
33:06
You're not supposed to get up and go towards no vending
33:08
machines and none of this stuff because they're sure you're
33:11
smuggling drugs. So she's over there smuggling
33:16
I'm talking to the officer in the visiting room like listen
33:19
she's not going to be able to do this without any help and it was
33:22
just it was it was really like on the one hand that was her way
33:26
of saying she loves right. Yeah.
33:29
What she was trying to do but on the other hand it was just so
33:32
stressful. Yeah.
33:34
Yeah. Delaware.
33:35
I mean it's really sweet that she she came there to see you.
33:39
I mean I got and didn't drive so I mean that was just a and yeah,
33:44
absolutely, yeah. Well let's let's go in.
33:48
I want to I want to get the into you getting close to getting out
33:53
and then getting out. So before we do that, let's take
33:55
a break here. Recognize our other sponsor
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35:01
I could have used are Duncan dotnet.
35:04
What? I was going through my stuff.
35:08
A crisis is here. Please come help.
35:12
Please waving my flag, okay? So Tony, you're getting close
35:17
to, you can close the door and you've been in for a while
35:23
longer than most that go into prison and come out, what's
35:29
going through your mind? How are you thinking?
35:31
How like, how am I getting out of here?
35:39
I was again at a level one so I have been to a level one, you
35:45
know before and I had blue it which means I got in trouble.
35:51
If I explain what Allah, you might explain what a level one
35:53
is just for the people listening out there that of what the yep.
35:56
So in Michigan and Michigan, our prisons are classified by
36:01
levels, so it goes one, two five.
36:06
And I think maybe we have one supermax prison in Michigan.
36:09
Only one. So generally is one of the five
36:13
is. So one is generally the lowest
36:15
level. Louis custody levels about
36:17
security and with so one is the laws customs of one Michigan.
36:22
And so the closer you are either to your out date or depending on
36:28
your disciplinary record that decides where you placed in
36:33
prison. And so I had Been an unlevel one
36:36
before. But again, like I said, I was in
36:39
my bit in your bit means a lot of different things, so I end up
36:44
blowing level one at that point in going all the way up to ad
36:49
seg and then have to work my way back down.
36:52
So I'm back at a level one. I'm in college.
36:56
So I'm taking college classes there.
36:58
I really didn't anticipate that. I was getting a parole.
37:02
My first time, I really didn't expect it.
37:06
I remember talking to the cops, my counselor, my unit counselor,
37:10
he was going over my my tickets, my disciplinary record and
37:15
saying yeah this is pretty bad. I'm not sure.
37:19
I don't think you're going to get a parole and I didn't think
37:21
that as well. So I was still like mentally.
37:24
I was just stealing my bit I'm still you know working out I had
37:29
for one. That's cool.
37:31
Yeah. Just I was still doing my bit
37:33
yeah. So So were you thinking when you
37:37
get that parole is it all of a sudden?
37:43
Wow, what am I going to do? Or had you been thinking about
37:46
planning on what's going to happen when I get out?
37:49
Absolutely. So I already started planning
37:54
what I wanted to do once I was with you.
37:56
Okay, I was married. I got married maybe a year
38:02
before. Okay, so I had I was married at
38:05
that point and out. Yeah I was already planning all
38:09
the things I wanted to do. Once I was released, I just
38:12
didn't think this purse, parole was going to happen.
38:15
So I built into my mind. And for Passover or Flop, which
38:23
is them telling me, they'll see me in another year, okay?
38:26
I got to ask you though, Tony, you got married while you were
38:29
in prison. So did you actually have a
38:31
ceremony in prison? Absolutely.
38:34
We had a real ceremony. Not, I wouldn't not a
38:38
traditional ceremony, like, in a church, but absolutely a priest
38:42
and a best man, and all that good stuff was in the person
38:46
that you married had. She been with you through the
38:49
Journey. Any of what you were going
38:50
through. No, she had not been with me for
38:54
the entire bid. She was a friend that would pop
39:00
in and out of my life during incarceration.
39:04
It was a person that I move, like I said before, I was
39:08
incarcerated she and I had the connection that we both were at
39:15
one point involved in a lot of stuff in the street.
39:18
Yeah. And so that that was our
39:22
connection. She had already changed her life
39:24
around and so, yeah. Well, the only reason I bring
39:29
that up, I think that's huge. That you, you got married, she
39:33
turned her life around and to me if I'm you thinking, you know,
39:40
coming out of this world that I've been in over 20 years and
39:45
I've got somebody that I can, you know, Trust and that is
39:51
already gone through chant the life transformation.
39:55
Basically transition to help you kind of transition out, had to
39:59
be kind of a big deal for you, right?
40:02
Absolutely, in, I think, in a lot of ways, some a lot of that
40:11
stability was really helpful in those initial months, when
40:16
everything was kind of falling apart.
40:17
Yeah, let's talk about that Tony because I don't want to skirt
40:20
over the fact that, you know, when people get out and people
40:24
start doing good things, that doesn't just happen you.
40:28
There's a lot of things that you have to swim through and Andy
40:32
eat a lot of shit sandwiches to get to the good stuff of feeling
40:36
like this is me, this is what I want to be doing.
40:40
What? What was it like for you getting
40:44
out and, and plugging yourself back into a society after 20
40:49
years? If a couple different things, I
40:54
think first. I often tell people, I was
40:58
extremely naive as to what life was going to be like
41:04
post-release. I had a lot of ideas on what I
41:08
was going to do. I've done most of those things
41:11
after school. I want to talk about those do.
41:14
Yeah. But but what I'll say is that I
41:21
might buy My now utility was based on the fact that it would
41:27
be easier post-release than it really was.
41:34
Just the ability to get a job was.
41:37
So it was just a little impossible.
41:42
I'll just say that. It was impossible for me to get
41:44
employment when I was released and I tried every way I could,
41:51
what they mostly say to you, Tony.
41:53
Just so people know on the other side, when you go out there, you
41:55
trying to go get a job to tell. You got to go get a job, got to
41:58
have a job and then what happens?
42:02
You apply everywhere, right? You do your applications.
42:06
You get your resume done and you.
42:10
You start applying for jobs when I, obviously, when I left the
42:15
street, there was no internet. So I had to figure out like, you
42:20
can apply online. My parole officer will be
42:22
telling me and get on the web and I had no idea what my parole
42:26
officer was talking about. But he talked to me as though I
42:29
should know all these things. And so I had there was obviously
42:33
this huge learning curve of how to apply online person applying
42:37
in person when I would go to the staff, Disease where I thought I
42:42
would have the biggest opportunities.
42:45
The fact that I was still on parole and I had a violent.
42:47
Conviction, was a huge barrier. And nobody really want to take
42:51
that risk. At least they looked at it as a
42:53
risk, when I got really close, there was one moment.
42:59
I was applying for us. I want to say it wasn't ups, but
43:05
it was another company that is UPS is a company that hires that
43:10
Bones. Yeah, it's so I was applying at
43:16
their airport Division and it was great.
43:21
I had a great interview in. So I had to be there super early
43:26
because the shift started around five something.
43:28
And so my wife at the time and my stepson, my sleep in the car,
43:36
as I went into this interview and this is, you know, I don't
43:40
know. Maybe eight nine, ten interview
43:44
with no results but they're still like, okay, I'll take you
43:48
out and get you there. And so I'm in in this interview,
43:52
my interview with a lady and we're talking about each other
43:56
and it turns out she's a classically trained paralegal
44:00
and so we hit it off right? We can all she's like, oh my
44:04
God, I got to get you, you would be perfect blah, blah, blah.
44:08
And we just got to do this Criminal.
44:10
I'll check after that criminal background.
44:17
Check that didn't pan out at all, which is such a shame
44:23
because a paralegal who had been more, or less trained in the
44:29
prison system would be a wonderful person to have as a
44:32
paralegal in a law firm. And that's what I, you know, I
44:37
one of the things I see Tony, With and I and we've got people
44:42
that I've had on the show where they have had a seat at the
44:44
table. But when you talk about parole
44:46
and you talk about parallels, you talk about somebody that's
44:49
clerking for a judge, it means something.
44:53
If there is somebody there that has a seat at the table that has
44:56
actually experienced a lot of things that they're reviewing
44:59
and absolutely. That's absolutely needs to
45:02
happen more than it doesn't. And it's just such a hard door
45:05
to enter. It is and and not to get off
45:12
track. But we had something just
45:14
recently in Michigan where Supreme Court, Justice hired
45:19
formerly incarcerated person who's doing amazing work, who
45:22
has a Juris doctorate just to clerk with her like just this
45:27
huge blow back where I and, and no one of the judges said, one
45:33
of the judges said something really bad, and I read that
45:36
story. Tony because it when I was
45:38
reading about you that came up in the story because one of the
45:41
things you do is advocate for people have been previously
45:44
incarcerated but he had all the qualifications of everything
45:48
that you would ever want. For somebody that would be in
45:50
that role as a clerk. Except for the fact that he had
45:53
a record, right? And I think, wow, it was
46:00
unfortunate for Pete and for justice, Bolden.
46:03
I think it was a really great. Admit to how far organizing and
46:12
Michigan, how strong Advocates have become in the state of
46:15
Michigan. That there was just like, this
46:18
is the tiniest blowback against the stuff that just as Bernie
46:22
Bernstein said, I think we're getting closer to having some
46:25
real Second Chances, but I think there's still a lot of work to
46:28
be done. Well and I think it happen, Tony
46:31
in that particular situation, the fact that he got that far
46:35
cause the conversation and And you know if he hadn't have been
46:38
able to get that farther when they even been a conversation.
46:40
So he really opened the door for what are we doing?
46:45
Why are we doing this? Why are we limiting these
46:47
people, you know, the number of years that they serve their out
46:50
there supposed to get started as a second chance, new this
46:53
person's very well qualified, mostly more qualified than
46:56
anybody. That could take that job.
46:58
The only reason he wasn't given that job is because they had
47:00
been previously incarcerated. Why do we think that way?
47:04
Is that the way that we really want it to be?
47:06
And Those are the stories and and the conversations that need
47:10
to be had because I don't think people really even think about
47:12
it until you start talking about it.
47:15
Absolutely, I think I thankful in this is the disconnect, I
47:19
think for most people verb, but I'm sorry.
47:24
When you think about most people, think you do, your you
47:28
do the crime. You do your time.
47:29
Yeah, right. That's the really overwhelming
47:33
sentiment of the public, right? And so once we start line,
47:38
Peeling back. The layers of wood is really
47:41
like to do the crime, do the time and then stay in this state
47:46
where you're perpetually punished people.
47:48
The general public is like, Wait, no, that's not the way it
47:52
should be, right? It's people think more of the
47:54
public is getting on board to say, yeah, people should have a
47:58
real second chance. They did their time, let's give
48:02
them opportunity. Okay.
48:03
So let's get into a little bit of that because Tony, you
48:05
started doing that and Art advocating.
48:08
I'm not sure when your book came into play here but I'd like to
48:13
talk about that. Because when did you what did
48:17
you write this book? And and what's the tell me a
48:20
little bit about the book So absolutely it's again so I don't
48:28
it's a fiction book and I know most of my colleagues right
48:31
non-fiction. Yeah and I commend them but like
48:34
I mentioned early on I fell in love with reading midnight
48:38
whistlers by the way midnight Whispers midnight Whispers, it's
48:43
a book. About two young men at grew up
48:46
as best friends. One is named midnight and one.
48:49
That's their nicknames. One is nicknamed midnight.
48:52
And one is nicknamed Whispers. This is really following them to
48:55
Growing Up and growing apart. As you know, one matures and one
49:01
doesn't and I think it's a great story.
49:02
Yeah, I'm going to check it out. I love, you know, reading.
49:08
So I've got this thing. I'm on my bike now because I
49:13
found this trainer that you put your bike on and so I only was
49:16
going to have it on there for the winter time but now that
49:18
I've all set up and I can read on the bike, I just that's how I
49:21
read now. No, but so I'm going to get that
49:24
midnight Whispers, you get it on Amazon.
49:27
Absolutely. Okay, absolutely.
49:28
So let's get back into Tony. So you you're having struggling
49:32
getting to and from and getting all that.
49:34
So, when is, when does something work for you?
49:38
So I actually go, I'm not sure who told me, but I actually go
49:43
to a temp service, it's a day working service called Labor,
49:47
Ready? And what you do is you show up
49:50
there and you sign in and you just wait in the hopes that
49:55
you'll get a job for the day. And so that's what I started
49:59
doing. I did actually try to do some
50:02
plasma but that didn't work out for me.
50:05
And so I would go every morning, too.
50:08
Labor Ready in the hopes of getting a job sometime, I would
50:11
get a one-day job or to day job but eventually it led up to me,
50:16
you know, getting assignments that will last a month or a few
50:20
weeks. And I ended up getting a
50:24
temporary side that and company that offered me another position
50:30
based on the work. I did it start and what you've
50:32
done on your temp service, they didn't give up and they saw the
50:36
no matter what Yeah, I couldn't give up.
50:41
I always felt and I still feel like that.
50:45
I know so many brilliant people that are still incarcerated,
50:49
right? That I'm I feel like I need to
50:52
make a statement as to what we're throwing away as a
50:56
society. Yes.
50:58
So how did you move into the role you're in now?
51:02
So another guy that I used to be, in the street with who went
51:07
to prison, got out and turn it this time around, he became a
51:12
pastor and he was doing. He was doing some nonprofit
51:17
work, he was actually at that time working as the legislative
51:23
director for a State Rep here in Michigan, okay?
51:27
So he tells me he wants me to come and meet him.
51:31
I thought it was about a possible paralegal job so I grew
51:35
up, never been to the capital never been in a lawmakers office
51:42
and here he is the director over there office, right?
51:45
My dad used to be in the street with and so he's talking to me
51:49
and he's telling me he wants to grow this organization out and I
51:52
would be perfect for a branch in Jackson and kind of getting that
51:56
off the ground and so I'm like, okay, sure, yeah sure.
52:01
I'll help ya. And that's where it started,
52:04
right? That's where starting out.
52:06
I want to say that was probably Late 2016, early 2017.
52:13
And I made just because I know because of Darrell woods and and
52:19
Martin Marvin cotton you are a guide that's known as a player
52:24
that's advocating and making change for policy in the world
52:29
of for the previously incarcerated can you kind of
52:31
talk about what you're doing? Absolutely.
52:35
So right now in the state we're focused laser focused on
52:42
addressing housing. We've been working on this for
52:45
probably the last four years growing out a campaign locally
52:51
around the state and different cities, trying to work to get
52:56
cities to address the issues that people will come to
52:59
history, space and access to housing.
53:01
We've had some success. In those cities, on the local
53:05
level. And so this year, using that
53:07
local success were planning to mount the Statewide campaign to
53:11
change the laws across the state to stop the Discrimination that
53:16
people face in accessing. Our I think, is, I think it's
53:19
absurd and I think most people will agree.
53:23
I love it. Tony because I don't think
53:26
people even realize it if you really take it all the way down,
53:30
break it all the way to the studs.
53:33
The Felon is the last of its breed that you can legally
53:37
discriminate against and you can you imagine if you had a box,
53:42
you know, if you're black or white or marry anyone, you can't
53:47
do it, you can't do it, but you can't do it.
53:51
And what you're doing is so important, housing is one of the
53:54
most important things you can ever have for an individual
53:58
who's trying to get anywhere in life and to be able to put your
54:02
voice behind that, because Cuz you've lived it and your, your
54:07
part of it just gives that much more power to be able to effect
54:12
change. And I just love what you're
54:14
doing. I just think it's what we were
54:18
talking about before we got on what I hope out of this Tony is
54:21
that the hard work that you do and the and the policies that
54:26
you change I think the bigger piece of all that is there's so
54:30
many different pieces of ex-felons doing good things
54:32
across the country. They It has some kind of
54:35
umbrella over him to like lock arms and get it all done, you
54:38
know, be one big voice because there's so many good Minds out
54:43
there that are that are making that that step and getting it
54:47
the door open for so many people.
54:48
But it's people like you Tony that you're dedicating yourself
54:52
to making that change. And you along the way what
54:56
you're doing is, inspiring people to.
54:58
And I was telling you that what I love about this program now is
55:02
we're in over 100 prisons. So over a hundreds of thousands
55:08
of tablets that are being listened to as we feed these out
55:13
and stories like yours Tony of doing the 20 years, going
55:18
through the hard work of not giving of telling everybody
55:22
telling you know you making connections out there.
55:25
The guy says you'd be great at this.
55:27
You take it and you take it with a voice and start making change.
55:31
That's the secret sauce. That's the stuff that makes
55:35
things work. Absolutely absolutely.
55:38
And I guess the only thing I would add on to that is that Not
55:44
everybody has that same level of tenacity, right?
55:46
Of a brand or a Tony or Marvin or a Darrell Woods in.
55:52
So the work is really about giving opportunities for those
55:59
people that may not be able to handle.
56:02
Those knows who will probably fail if they can't get a job,
56:08
the first fourth, the fifth time.
56:10
And so I'm really mindful of that that this is this is about
56:14
really getting rid of those barriers that cause people to
56:17
fail, right? And that's really my passion in
56:21
life until we can get all this done.
56:23
That's why I love. And having a good fashion is
56:27
really what I mean? That's, that's the thing that
56:29
fuels you. And once you find that passion
56:31
and makes everything else makes sense, I got a question for you
56:36
Tony. For everybody that's out there.
56:41
You have lived through things that no one could really unless
56:46
you've experienced it and doing 20 years in a prison.
56:50
What do you think? Is your biggest takeaway from
56:52
all of it? In one word is this and I think,
57:05
you know, this being able to adapt having flexibility and I
57:12
think it's funny because it's it kind of flies in with our body
57:17
is well, you know, the older we get the stick through different,
57:21
we tend to get and so, you know, as you lose that flexibility, it
57:26
just makes life difficult. I would encourage people to be
57:30
flexible and not Get locked into an idea of who they think they
57:36
are because they're probably more than that.
57:38
I've had a lot of friends. I've lost this out that home who
57:43
I've been cursed to get into this work, but they were so
57:46
locked into a sense of who they thought they were that they
57:50
couldn't see themselves by becoming something other than
57:53
that. So I would just encourage people
57:56
to embrace flexibility. I'm gonna break the ice and
58:01
Tony. Able to adapt.
58:03
It gives you so much more confidence in you.
58:06
That's what you've done. You know, you, you, you had to
58:09
adapt every step, but the key to that was, is you didn't you
58:13
didn't quit stepping, you know, adapting to you met falling
58:18
forward and and involving and whatever that was, and you've
58:21
done that both in prison. And since you've been out of
58:24
prison, figuring out what steps those are, but you were stepping
58:28
forward with it. That's, that's a key.
58:30
That's a great. I appreciate that.
58:32
I appreciate you saying that, but that's a great takeaway,
58:36
though because people can live by that.
58:39
For those looking for a book out there, looking for midnight,
58:43
Whispers, go to Amazon. I've got a book to it's called
58:47
nightmare success - success. I think also Walmart has it so
59:00
yeah, Tony's got a book midnight.
59:02
Sprint's got a book mid night, a success for all those out there.
59:08
Don't forget to go to Apple when you're on a Apple platform,
59:14
there's three little bars up there, follow the show makes it
59:17
easy while you're on that site goes scroll a little bit down
59:21
and you can leave a review. It really helps really helps to
59:26
leave a review because it pumps up the volume on how they
59:28
promote the show. If you want to leave me a
59:32
message or anything. A, I love talking back and forth
59:34
on Brent Cassie.com, don't forget that.
59:35
I spoke caste wrong spell it with a tyz of a DUI part of the
59:40
cool. Guys are DUIs Sean and David, I
59:42
guess, for those, and in the, and the likes, and the comments
59:48
on social media, love that just keep doing it and I'll follow
59:51
back up and love the back and forth.
59:55
As I used to say when I was typing.
59:57
My own e-mails back and forth from Leavenworth, stay strong
1:00:00
and I'll do the same Tony. Gant thank you for being here
1:00:02
today, man. I appreciate you grant that
1:00:07
diver success in and out. Thanks.
1:00:10
Absolutely.