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Senior Editor Noah Schwartzberg on Working with a Traditional Publisher · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider starter kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever dreamed of sitting down with an editor at one of the big New York publishing houses and asking them all your burning questions about the publishing process?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if so, you're in luck because that's exactly what I did on today's episode.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to bring you this conversation with Noah Schwartzberg, senior editor at Portfolio, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House, the biggest publisher in the United States.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Before joining the portfolio team in 2019, Noah brought over a decade of experience as an acquisitions editor for McGraw-Hill, Cambridge University Press, and Fairchild Books.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: His areas of focus include business, economics, finance and investing, and politics.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Noah's authors run the gamut from generals to journalists, economists to entrepreneurs, and he's especially interested in stories that shine a light on critical but overlooked issues at the intersection of business and society.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: In our conversation today, Noah shares his journey in the publishing world.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about what a publisher looks for in a great book concept, the benefits of traditional publishing, and what a day in the life of an editor actually looks like.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: This was a really, really fun and informative conversation, and I want to give my good friend Bridget Kutshall a major shout-out for connecting me with Noah.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you are ready to learn all about the world of traditional publishing, here is my conversation with Noah Schwartzberg.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Noah, I'm so glad you could join me on the Daily Writer podcast today.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love talking about books and publishing and writing and all the millions of things related to that.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad that you could join us today to dive into some of these things.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's great to be here, Ken.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I would start out with asking you about your journey in books and publishing.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always fascinated by how people arrive in certain positions or roles.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you have a great love for books and writing and publishing, but share with us kind of how what was your journey into uh being in the professional book world.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a kind of sideways career trajectory, which is a little unusual.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Publishing can be very hierarchical.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: People start as assistants and they move up to associates and then to editors and then and so on and so forth.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: I got my start.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: I have a fine arts background.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, began, um, was certified as a second language teacher straight out of college, really as an opportunity.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: My parents were both public school teachers, and it was an opportunity to travel and work abroad.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I spent almost five years in Southeast Asia.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I was doing writing and editing at the same time, freelance gigs, while I was working as an administrator at a bilingual school.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And when I eventually came back to the States, I was working with um at NYU and Parsons in the new school, teaching some non-native English speakers enrolled in design in the design program.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of marrying my fine arts background with my second language teaching experience.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very, very challenging to say the least, um, juggling um working as an instructor and being a new parent and having classes at eight o'clock in the morning and eight o'clock in the evening.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And also it really was kind of an accidental profession.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't meant to spend as long as I had in education.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was able to get an in-house job at Fairchild Books overseeing their program of ancillary.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So all the bells and whistles that went with their um textbooks.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the the way that happened was because I had been, because I had spent a lot of time in the classroom, I had experience with curriculum development, and I'd also continued to do writing and editing projects this whole time.
• 4:11
  unknown: Okay.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they saw someone who, you know, who was a good fit.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I came on board, I kind of originated this position for them and built out a program, and from there I went to Cambridge University Press.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I spent a number of years in educational publishing and was able to move sideways through educational publishing, finally into straight trade publishing, um, which isn't which is unusual.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh the bridge in my case was working with practitioners.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: So basically working from aspiring practitioners, working with students, you know, materials for students and materials for teachers, and then increasingly more technical projects that were written by professionals and practitioners in it in their space.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that that's the that's the long story short.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: I also was fortunate at the beginning where I did, because the you know, to be sort of frank about the realities of publishing, it's very hard.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Starting salaries can be quite low.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, being a parent, um, you know, it would not have been tenable to start as an assistant uh and spend however long, you know, grinding my way through the ranks.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So because I started where I did and originated a position in educational publishing, I started at a really at a higher tier.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um and within a context that had more regular hours.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so while educational publishing doesn't have, you know, it doesn't have the fancy parties that trade publishing does, that meant I could be home at six o'clock with my family.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's how I got started.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then gradually my son grew up and I was able to, you know, slowly move and take more opportunities to to have a job which would sort of a more varied social professional life, which is a lot of fun.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I mentioned in our email communications back and forth when we were setting up this conversation that I was a college professor for many years.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I always used almost every semester that I taught, there was at least one class where I was using those ancillary materials from a publisher of one sort or another.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you, from the perspective of a teacher, I absolutely loved those.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh there was one course I taught on public speaking where I forget who the publisher was, but the the textbook itself was really expensive, but it came with all this other stuff like quizzes and teaching materials and just a whole gamut of stuff.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I loved that.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And as a writer as well, I always thought, man, there are some writers who are spending a lot of time thinking through all this stuff to craft these quizzes and this material and the PowerPoint slides and everything.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I just have I have so much appreciation for people who have spent time in educational publishing because man, if you get a great resource, it really makes the teacher's life so much easier.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: So on behalf of the teachers of America, thank you for your time in educational publishing.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I'm with you.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think having taught, it made it, it was, you know, just invaluable.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, I you know, I understood the challenges faced by by teachers.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and so what happened before I came on board, my publisher was spending a lot of time and money with these big packagers who would come in and they'd spend a lot of money on these on these products that people weren't using.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because they were being developed by folks who just didn't have classroom experience.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, they might tick the box of certain curriculum requirements, but they didn't tick the box of like how people actually teach and what goes on in the classroom and just some common sense stuff around like time management and you know, the whole host of things.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And are you saving time for the teacher or are you creating more work for them?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And right ultimately, if if the idea is to create ancillaries that are going to help with course adoptions, and because at the end of the day, the publisher is is creating these materials, not for all true truistic motives, but because they're hoping to lock-in course adoptions, right?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they have to be useful.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: They have to be something that's actually going to be time saving and help, you know, that help that department make the decision to purchase the course.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: It makes a huge, huge difference.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and honestly, as a teacher, once you get locked into a certain textbook, you're kind of locked into it if you think it's really useful.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: You you build your course materials around it.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've you've sunk hundreds of hours in into a course that's baked around, you know, sometimes certain textbooks, and you're really reluctant to change those books.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh once you kind of have a course developed around that for sure.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the hope.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and getting a start working on ancillaries made me really uh pragmatic and not pre, you know, I'm not precious.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I should say I'm obviously you know passionate about my author's writing and having come from that background as opposed to a very literary one with you know with those kinds of, you know, and which isn't to say that we don't value that, but it just made me very, very, you know, prag pragmatic.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, ultimately the books that we're working on are functional objects.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: They they serve a purpose in the world, whether it's to teach, you know, the reader something new or to help them see the world in a new way or do something better, or even just to have a good time.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: They still have some, you know, there's still fun some functional utility to set the book.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: How is how is that different than what you do now with Penguin Random House?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know you're not exclusively you know working with educational products now, but what kinds of things do you typically work with on a day-to-day basis in your role there?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't work with educational books at all, although some of the more square peg business books do have do have an education, do have a component of education in the sense that they're teaching the reader something that may be more more maybe more prescriptive than than than a non-business book uh would would have to offer.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, you know, a book about a book for entrepreneurs or a book uh that has lessons on productivity, we you know, Portfolio has um a very, very wide range of types of books we do, including some very traditional um types of business books.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then I also have the pleasure of working on books which are more like big idea books.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: So books which would appeal to uh maybe a similar audience, but which have a less prescriptive, more conceptual agreement.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how to think or do differently, as opposed to here are here are six steps to do this one thing better.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense, okay.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I also work with journalists on narrative nonfiction projects about a wide range of subjects.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I worked on a really exciting project called Dead in the Water by a pair of Bloomberg Business Week journalists that's all about the hijacking of a Greek super container and the investigation into the murder of a British maritime surveyor.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's a book which is um it's it's it's really a murder mystery at heart.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's a true crime story that explains, on the one hand, how the international shipping industry works and how the insurance industry works, but it's also a book about the cheap cost of the cost of cheap goods.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a real human element and those kinds of stories, which both explain um complicated uh subjects in accessible ways, but also have a real human component uh appeal to me a lot.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: What happens?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just asking this strictly out of curiosity.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've never thought about this before, but since you're here on the show, what happens whenever you're dealing with a an author who's very well established?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got tons of portfolio books here in my office.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um in fact, am I am I correct that uh Ryan Holiday's books are through portfolio?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Ryan Holiday, Simon Sinek, Seth Godin.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Those are some of our any duke, those are some of our big names.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's that's what I thought.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um pretty much whenever Ryan Holiday or Seth Godin put out something, it's like, I'm just gonna buy it.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean it doesn't matter what it is, I'm just gonna buy it because I love other stuff.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: What happens um if you have an author who comes to you with a concept, they're very well established, uh, they've sold a lot of books, they come to you with a concept that the publisher is not really excited about, or that is it's something just wildly different than what you expected.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Does that have to be difficult sometimes in your role where you have to think about, okay, obviously you want to keep authors happy to some degree, but you also have to think about the business side and have other projects that may be in the same vein.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: How do you juggle all those kinds of things at the same time?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: That seems to me that would be really difficult.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question, and that happens all the time.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're we're looking at a host of things.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: We're looking at the market, we're looking at, you know, trends in you know buying habits, and you know, someone might be a fantastic author who sells a lot of books and has a great following, but maybe their idea is not the right book for that following.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes people get so successful they think they can, you know, they're they're experts on everything, and no one person's expert on everything.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um we all have our we all have our blind spots.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so what do you do?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, hopefully you have a longstanding with with a long-standing relationship comes trust and honesty, and you can have an open conversation about, you know, you know, are there ways to to shape it into something that both parties see being really um exciting and accessible and where there's opportunity?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: If they have a great agent, then the agent is also someone who can really be worth their weight in gold when it comes to massaging projects in the direction of something which which all parties see as being um a great fit.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um every so often you reach an impasse.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and there are times when you know an author says, like, for example, I want to do a children's book.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're not a children's book publisher.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, are there exceptions when we might be a good fit for a children's book by one of our authors?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: But there are also instances when it would be a bad fit and where we simply could not do it service.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning, right, given how we sell books into the retail accounts and how we promote books, and you know, the type of engine we have set up just isn't the right engine to superpower that project, no matter how good it might be.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it isn't always the case that it's a bad idea.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: It just might not be the best idea for us.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so these are all things that we consider, and and one of the pleasures of working for a portfolio is that we are a small, kind of bespoke outfit.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not a volume game.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: We spend a lot of time talking about books and really kicking the tires a lot.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's something that our publisher and our editorial director and the whole team really admires.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So even with authors who have a successful track record, it's never the case that one someone from our team can come forward and say, I've got another book by so-and-so, and and someone writes them a blank check.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: We we always sort of turn over every every rock there is to turn over and try to see what might be hiding there.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a challenge, it's also what makes the job fun.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I I certainly enjoy you know those conversations and trying to figure things out together, but it is something that takes um a special kind of attention.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: If if the bigger an author becomes, the the more uh you know careful we we have to be when it comes to um negotiating these types of differences.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because you also don't want them going off on social media and spouting things.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh hopefully most people have the common sense not to do that.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you, but I know anytime you're working with with people, things can things can go south in so many different ways uh in any kind of relationship.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So especially when you're dealing with you know people's egos and creative projects and ideas they've been thinking about for a long time.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that that just that has to be such a complicated web of things that you you have to kind of be a certain personality type to be successful in your kind of role, I would imagine.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, no two so much of our jobs requires a kind of psychological acumen, understanding how people work.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, someone can be no two authors are alike for one thing.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Some people require, want, a lot of hand holding and a lot of support, and other people don't.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And just just like in any job, you know, we're often sort of fighting the last war.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: You come out of one project and you you maybe you overcorrect for for for the last bit of difficulty.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: I never thought someone thought, you know, oh, you know, you know, someone just didn't want notes, and so you dial it back and you're a little bit more economical, and the next person wants them.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you so we I try to do a lot of table setting at the beginning to understand how people work and and to set expectations together so that they have a clear sense of what I can offer.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's a huge challenge, and we can all be our own worst enemies when it comes to creative work because there's so much that can get in the way.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you can be a wonderful editor when it comes to providing you know critical feedback on the page, but if it's not landing or if it's being for for whatever variety of reasons being misread, it's it's if it's not being helpful, ultimately it's not doing its job.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, how do you develop a relationship with someone, which is what it is, that that's a successful working relationship?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Giving constructive critical feedback is only one part of that.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because if they're not going to hear you, then it doesn't matter how you know how closely I'm reading it or how good my ideas or bad my ideas are.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in any way, you know, some people just aren't going to take it regardless.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, you know, like anything, you know, people are better or worse listeners.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So part of part of our job entails kind of being sensitive to the nature uh and personality of people we're working with, and and and also I think giving them a sense of who we are and how we were.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I try to be as honest as possible because I'm I'm not gonna fool anybody.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I can't, I can't be another type of, you know, certainly at this part of my career.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I am who I am and I I work the way I do, and I can I can compromise and I can do a lot to meet people where they need to be met, but I but I also have my habits and quirks and about about ways of doing things and and so I'm upfront about that.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, going back to your point before, when it comes to satisfying um the goals that authors may have and the benefit, you know, particularly now when it is so easy to self-publish, we have the added, you know, burden of explaining not only that they should do the pro a particular project with us in the way that we think would be best, but also that they should publish with us, period.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we say, you know, we're not crazy about this next idea you have, we think that we have, you know, what if you did this instead?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And they say, nope, I'm gonna do that.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't want to do it, I'm just gonna publish it myself.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um authors sign, you know, part of their agreements involve options.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: So usually we're entitled to a follow-up, but that often doesn't cover self-published work.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it may stop them from going to another publisher, but it doesn't necessarily stop them from doing it on their own.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: It you know, it varies.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's no like, but but that that can be the case.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, part of so we have to be very um clear and and honest about what it is we can offer.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think you know, obviously I'm biased, but there's you know, there's a lot that we have to offer.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Everything from the institutional knowledge and the expertise of our team, and and you know, very, very, you know, we have the large, you know, our huge distribution network and amazing sales and publicity and marketing teams, and um authors benefit from you know, our legal departments.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think people who haven't been through the ringer once before probably need more convincing about what we can offer.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think when an author has worked with us, they probably do it, you know, certainly by book two or three, really understand how much they benefit from the sort of back the back room things that happen.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but for a first-time author, say, you know, we're we're talking about a project and they're saying, well, you know, I I just don't see what, you know, I've got a 40,000, 50,000 people on my newsletter and I've got direct access, and and what you know, maybe I should just do this by myself.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the honest answer is, you know, sometimes that is the right answer.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they should.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um because if ultimately what they want is 100% creative control and to do everything themselves and to you know, own and control that up that operation completely, then that probably is the right the right way to go about it.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's so interesting that that you that you kind of mentioned that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a ghostwriter by train and work with a lot of authors who want to self-publish, but also authors who traditionally publish.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I just wrapped up a book for a client uh with HarperCollins and had such a wonderful experience actually with that.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: I loved working with their PR and media people there, the editors who were involved in it.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was like several editors, you know, um and they're really great insights and uh the cover designers and the layout people and it's like man, it's so much fun working with people who are are at the top of their game and they're really, really good at what they do.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: So and I and I understand you know self-publishing can be a great option for many people and it's the right option for for a lot of circumstances.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: But man, there's something really, really cool about working with publishers who are really good at their job and who know how to craft an amazing book.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean I'm with you also like I don't uh I don't want to be right all the time.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not right all the time.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah like yeah like when I when I I mean when I come to work each day I I really I learn from my colleagues.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: I like going into meetings and hashing over covers and hearing from designers and hearing from people who have expertise that's different from my own and I think that's all really valuable.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if if you come to the table thinking I've got it all figured out you know I know I mean everything that's that's a I mean that's that's you're you're probably going you're probably missing out on a lot of interesting yeah points of view and like I I totally understand people's concern about you know having too many cooks in the kitchen.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: I understand people's concern about groupthink that you know if if you're getting cons if you're trying to get consensus with everybody you you may end up watering you know ending up with oatmeal I get that and publishers that are worth their salt know don't do that.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: They know how to get a better version by bringing in people at the right times by asking the right questions by getting feedback from the you know and and iterating and and ending up with something really terrific.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm that's good that's really insightful I love that now as a ghostwriter I'm I'm super curious about this.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: So from a publisher's perspective I've actually never asked this of a publisher before or anybody involved in publishing but you work with a whole variety of authors and I'm sure ghostwriters and all kinds of people what separates the good ghostwriters from the ones that are not your favorite?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I guess what I'm really asking is what are the qualities that a good ghostwriter has from a publishing perspective not necessarily from just the writing but I'm talking about the people who are easy to deal with they are open to just to suggestions to editorial changes what what are those qualities that make really really good ghostwriters from a publisher standpoint?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean at the end of the day selfishly I want anyone working on the project to be additive and to solve problems and if if a ghostwriter or a consultant or someone comes to it who this is like I mean I'll say this in a roundabout way but I I had a job years ago where at a at an office where things were not very functional and a lot of the executive class thought their the way of the way of demonstrating their authority at the job was to basically find problems and what other people were doing.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so you kind of went around in in circles with people marking things up with red pens.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and that wasn't what what happened was that people were then afraid to make mistakes and and because they were afraid to make mistakes they were uh less creative and the work suffered and I think a good ghostwriter is there's trust just like there is with your author.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's good communication just like there is with the author I think that they are someone who is good at problem solving who is honest if there are things that they see not making sense.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: So for example I can give an example of a project I worked on where we were figuring something out with someone who had a really popular blog and newsletter and it was going really well but there was something in the original positioning that just didn't quite click.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the ghostwriter came back and was like and rather than fake it or try to like back the truck up into a parking space that was just two sizes too small she was like you know I I think we can I think this needs to be rethought like everything is working but this one thing isn't working and here's why and so that was someone who was like that's worth its weight in gold you know she she she wasn't being um contrary for the sake of being contrary she wasn't trying to show her her expertise by being difficult for the sake of itself she was really like she was you know bringing bringing something to the table that we hadn't noticed because we hadn't been in the weeds um and then offering a solution and saying okay this doesn't work so what about this or this or this?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that is my very long-winded and roundabout way of saying someone who is really an honest partner and who can offer um you know who is very solutions focused and um and who tags things you know I would say sooner than later.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: So because I I kind of tend to think like on any project you want to get you want to experiment and you want to get that that hard stuff out of the way in the beginning.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to find out eight months into it that something isn't working.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: So early and early and often is the way to experiment is the way just is the way to throw spaghetti on the wall is the time to do it.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then you know then you go off and do your thing.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Does that all make sense?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: It totally makes sense.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah because I think a I can't obviously I'm not going to speak for anybody else but I would assume that many ghostwriters would perceive themselves as hey I'm just the writer I'm just here to kind of work with the author especially if their contract is just with the author and not with the publisher and I assume is that generally true that in most cases or maybe all case in maybe all cases that the the ghostwriter's contract is with the author and not the publisher directly that's a great point.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is not always the case and okay and you're you're right it you know depending on so the now that you mention it the example that I gave I I had contracted the writer and I think that did probably make it easier for her to come to me directly and I interesting and I do appreciate that there must be situations where you know a ghost is working for the writer they see there are issues and the writer's saying no there aren't I mean your boss is telling you it's fine.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're kind of serving two masters and that can be that can be very difficult.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah that's a delicate balance when you have the author who's you know their name is on the book but then you have the writer who's you know working for the author but then if their name's on the book that probably creates maybe some other potential challenges and there's just a whole host of things I'm sure to take into account with all this to make the process go smoothly.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and we do as well as editors I mean at the end of the day if I give feedback so there are certain things which obviously can constitute breach of contract where if if if a manuscript really doesn't meet the mark to such an egregious you know extent we say we're not happy with this you have to make it right we have to make it right.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that that that doesn't often happen.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: But what what does happen more often than anyone wants to admit because it's it's sort of you know embarrassing and we want we we we we want all of our books to be the best books in the world and walk around with huge smiles on our faces.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: But the truth is that you know we're faced with similar situations editorially where we we can only do our best to make suggestions and to offer ideas.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: If something comes in and an author insists on it being a certain way it's their name on the cover it's their name in the spotlight they decide ultimately so um all you can do is make the best is make the best case and and hope for the best I'm curious about kind of switching uh directions a little bit I'm sure that people including myself are curious about this.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: When you are looking at potential authors who you you are signing obviously having a track record is really good but for someone who is new maybe they're a first time author or they're new to to your your company do you have certain metrics you look at in terms of social media following email newsletter subscribers uh past book sales those kinds of things and I and I and I know it's it's always not a hard and fast thing it's a combination of things.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious is there anything you can tell us in terms of here's kind of the baseline of what a what a big four publisher is going to look at in terms of those kind of metrics.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it it varies a lot depending upon the subject area in which you're publishing so obviously if you're publishing into you know one of any number of different literary uh subjects it's entirely different and I'm frankly much less familiar with that.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: But their their metrics have to do with the prestige around certain writing programs and you know the a whole host of other things they just breathe they breathe a different air than we do.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's occasionally crossover and I've you know and I you know we publish with journalists for example who win you know all kinds of prestigious awards for their for their writing but our starting place for the kind of publishing we do isn't isn't the award show right um our starting place tends to be um and again it varies so if it's a straight business book you know what kind what kind of platform the platform matters a lot is it is the platform institutional is it through their organization what kind of reach does it have what kind of support are they going to get how do they demonstrate that so if a CEO comes to us and they say I have a great idea for a book about the 10 things that everyone has to do to be the best CEO in the world okay fine what what is it about their reputation that's going to make some target demographic want to rush out and buy that book and are there enough of them it has to you know we the other the other misapprehension that people often have is that publishers make campaigns from law for the kind of publishing we do that's almost never the case we take an existing platform and we scale it.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we're looking at we're looking at a platform that we can take and make bigger if if someone has a core constituency of many thousand people is there a clear path to get from that core constituency to to larger you know public uh recognition?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is it through speaking?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is it through traditional media do they have those connections already um or do they simply have a large enough social media platform that we might be able to piggyback on that to book sales but a large social media platform in and of itself isn't any indicator of success because it has a lot to do with the subject area.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that we see being meaningful is you know engagement with your audience.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have a million followers on multi TikTok but they're not doing anything but passively watching a video of you juggle oranges there's no reason to think that people are going to go and buy your if you have 40 50 thousand people subscribing paying subscribers to your newsletter people who are posting messages to you and and you know getting on Reddit and debating you know the ideas well that's a really good sign because it means that there is a hardcore group of people who are willing to one pay for this content and two that you're you know you're you're someone people are going to talk about if not over the dinner table over the virtual dinner table with other people who are engaged in this idea set.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: So so those are things that are meaningful.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: If the author is a journalist and if I'm trying to set up a project that's about um uh you know something other than a you know a quote unquote straight business topic maybe it's more newsworthy um is their um is their outlet going to give them um retail space to to you know are like for example if they're at the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Post or the New York Times is this something which is going to get into support and and it often is because these these these magazines these newspapers are are more than happy to have their authors you know publish well received books and they do a lot to they you know usually but not always do a lot to support them.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: What you know what is their media track record you know have they if they've published before how did their other books do?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately given the state of the industry it is much less common than it used to be to stick with people who have modest to poor book sales.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I I I'm I'm often struck I'll read an article about someone who has who's been around forever and you read about how they're they're publishing how stuck with them through their first couple of books which sold in the thousands and like that is amazing and wonderful and allows people to grow and it is you know very very infrequently the case that you can publish a book that bombs and then get another couple of times at bat.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we're looking at um someone's track record if they have previously published and if they haven't then we're trying to look for someone who is similar enough to make a case to our team we we look to comp titles so we say look this person is 80% similar in all the right ways but 20% different in all the right ways.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is why sometimes you you you have the same phenomenon you have with movies where you have a lot of derivative stuff because you know everyone is nervous about making taking a bet.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have to prove to your stakeholders that the bet has a good upside and you do that by showing them other books which have been hits that are not too similar because then no one wants to buy this you know no one wants the same exact thing but similar enough in enough of the right ways to uh convince people to take a bet on it.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes that totally makes sense wow there's a lot of factors there's a lot there's a lot of factors and there's no there's no one thing where if you were an aspiring writer there's no one thing but I would say the best basic piece of advice I can offer is if you are if you're working in an area where you want to publish with a with a publisher like Portfolio the first the first place to start is with your audience and cultivating an audience.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: And if you come to us with a brilliant idea but no kind of audience whatsoever it's going to be very hard to get our attention where and also this is a way of you know road testing your your ideas so why wouldn't you want to build you know why wouldn't you go out and want to speak to people and have a newsletter or have a blog or have some some way of you know starting and developing and evolving a conversation that can scale because if you come to us and have evidence of that then we're immediately going to sit up and pay attention.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Boy this has been fun.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've learned a ton from this conversation this has really really been enlightening so thanks for taking the time to do this Noah I appreciate your expertise and your wisdom on this um there's so much more to this than we have time to go into but um if people want to get in touch with you uh to connect further about any of these things is that okay if they shoot you an email or what what's the best way to connect with you?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely I'm always reachable through my Penguin Random House email which is just uh Anne Schwartzberg at Penguin Random House and then I'm on Twitter at Noah is reading.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh perfect okay I like that.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: So do you give book recommendations or book thoughts any anything like that?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm very very very quiet online um but I do often retweet my author's tweets um I will I will help carry their megaphone.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love that see that to me that's a sign of a of an editor who cares you know not just somebody who's kind of punching a time clock and doing what's required but like you actually really care about this stuff and it's really evident you have a passion for it and you want to see people succeed.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we need more people like you in the publishing world.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks Kent that means a lot to me and yeah it's true obvious I mean we all want to it's I mean it is such a pleasure to as you progress in your career and you get to work on more of the kinds of books that you care about and and are meaningful to you and and also it's it's no really like I think it's it's really important for all of us to remember how how big not only is it a huge commitment in terms of time for our authors but that they're they're putting a huge amount of trust and responsibility in our hands.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously you know as easy it is for anyone to become cynical at their job and to get exhausted at their job and to get frustrated at their job and to bang their head against the wall at their job and still at the end of the day um we have to care about our authors and get and be the best advocate we can be for their for their work and their ideas no matter what.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Wow I love it.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: No thanks again this has been an absolute blast and um hoping we can connect again and chat more about books and publishing and everything because I just I love talking about this stuff and I love the insights that you share today.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks again for doing this has been a blast.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a pleasure Ken take care.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Look forward to keeping in touch well I hope you learned as much in that conversation as I did about the traditional publishing process.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: I want to give Noah a huge shout out for taking the time to be a guest on today's episode.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure and connect with Noah on Twitter and LinkedIn.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Those links will be in the show notes.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know one of the cool things about being an author today is that we have all kinds of options for how we want to get our books added to the world you can do traditional publishing you can do self-publishing you can do hybrid publishing and you can select which avenue you want to go with your books according to whatever your goals are and what you want to do with each particular project.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that this conversation with Noah has given you a lot of really fun and informative insights into the world of traditional publishing.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening and I'll see you tomorrow.