Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Adam Bhala Lough - Deepfakes, Bunkers, and Billionaires: Inside The AI Arms Race

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Interview Only w/ Adam Bhala Lough - Deepfakes, Bunkers, and Billionaires: Inside The AI Arms Race · The Chuck ToddCast

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Speaker 1: Many of you know I have said that I think
1:53
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty eighth President's going that one of the
1:56
Speaker 1: leading issues is going to be fear of AI disc
2:00
Speaker 1: placement in general sort of. I think for the most part,
2:05
Speaker 1: there is more of a negative or concern or anxiety
2:08
Speaker 1: about AI at this point. We have a variety of
2:11
Speaker 1: reasons for that. For some people it's just hitting them
2:14
Speaker 1: in the pocket books. That's what we're feeling in Northern Virginia,
2:17
Speaker 1: thanks to these AI power data centers, you've got the
2:21
Speaker 1: fear of AI displacement. The invention of Sora, I think,
2:26
Speaker 1: made social media, which was already assessble, somehow a more
2:30
Speaker 1: tox successful and you can't believe now anything you see.
2:34
Speaker 1: So the idea of fearing AI is something that is understandable,
2:39
Speaker 1: and we're probably collectively all maybe we've all watched one
2:45
Speaker 1: too many dystopian sci fi thrillers. But it is in
2:49
Speaker 1: that spirit that I'm fascinated by a new documentary I
2:55
Speaker 1: watched and the documentarian is here now, and many of
2:58
Speaker 1: you know I'm a huge proponent of documentaries in general.
3:03
Speaker 1: This is a feature length documentary. It's called Deep Faking
3:05
Speaker 1: Sam Altman, and in some ways it's a it's a diary,
3:09
Speaker 1: and I'm we're going to find out whether this was
3:11
Speaker 1: ever the original intent or not. But it's a diary
3:14
Speaker 1: of the filmmaker Adam Balalaalowe, who's joining me now of
3:17
Speaker 1: his journey to try to interview the real Sam Altman
3:21
Speaker 1: of Chat of Open AI and Chat ChiPT fame to
3:26
Speaker 1: just you know. I think my guess is Adam wanted
3:30
Speaker 1: to tackle some of these concerns and fears and anxieties
3:34
Speaker 1: that so many of us have on this and and
3:37
Speaker 1: Sam Altman is, let's just say, proved elusive. I think
3:41
Speaker 1: Michael Moore would be very proud of this movie. Adam,
3:44
Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast.
3:46
Speaker 2: Thanks. I appreciate that. And I've been trying to get
3:50
Speaker 2: Michael Moore's attention, and you know, I still I have
3:52
Speaker 2: not been able to want to I want him, you know,
3:55
Speaker 2: obviously if you look at the poster too, it's a
3:57
Speaker 2: reference to Roger and Me and this, Yeah, this very
4:00
Speaker 2: very early on in the process, I realized, like this
4:04
Speaker 2: is like a weird update on Roger and Me in
4:07
Speaker 2: a way.
4:08
Speaker 1: Well, and you know, it's funny with you know, there's
4:12
Speaker 1: this visual I have now of all of these tech
4:14
Speaker 1: titans that is that they're all like Zuckerberg with this
4:20
Speaker 1: Hawaii Hawaii bunker, right that they're all preparing realizing that
4:24
Speaker 1: the pitchforks are coming for them, so they're going to
4:27
Speaker 1: protect themselves. So I get it right the same way
4:30
Speaker 1: that I think what inspired Michael Moore at the time
4:33
Speaker 1: to go find the chairman of General Motors, Hey, you've
4:36
Speaker 1: destroyed my town. Can I talk about it with you?
4:39
Speaker 1: Will you please talk to me type of mindset, and
4:44
Speaker 1: and so I want to start there because Adam, I
4:47
Speaker 1: don't I don't feel like you entered into this subject
4:54
Speaker 1: matter assuming the worst about AI. Am I right?
5:00
Speaker 2: No, you're right. I've been a fan of AI since
5:02
Speaker 2: I was a little kid, you know, going dating back
5:06
Speaker 2: to The Terminator two era. I saw that movie when
5:11
Speaker 2: I was in second grade. It's part of the reason
5:12
Speaker 2: why I became a filmmaker. It was one of my
5:15
Speaker 2: favorite films of all time. And I remember early on
5:20
Speaker 2: going to the mall and going to the arcade and
5:22
Speaker 2: like those like those early virtual reality headsets you put on.
5:27
Speaker 2: They cost like two dollars to like play this rudimentary
5:31
Speaker 2: virtual reality game. I've always been super interested in technology,
5:35
Speaker 2: and when chat GBT first came out, I was one
5:37
Speaker 2: of the first people to start using it. I think
5:40
Speaker 2: they just found it to be fascinating. So going into this,
5:45
Speaker 2: I definitely had I wouldn't say a rosy view of AI,
5:49
Speaker 2: but I had a positive view of AI. And now
5:53
Speaker 2: I'm just scared to death.
5:57
Speaker 1: So I want to start with something here, which is
6:00
Speaker 1: why we call it AI. And I wonder if you know,
6:05
Speaker 1: I don't think I try really hard to say, it's
6:08
Speaker 1: just it's it's just a probability sample. And I try
6:14
Speaker 1: to tell myself that I'm just this is just a
6:16
Speaker 1: probability sample. This is a ninety nine point five percent
6:20
Speaker 1: probability that the next word is going to be blah
6:23
Speaker 1: right like, and that it's not a real person. That's
6:27
Speaker 1: all this is, is a probability. Do you think if
6:30
Speaker 1: we called it, you know, anything other than artificial intelligence, right,
6:35
Speaker 1: and if it had just a more benign name or
6:39
Speaker 1: something that doesn't feel humanish, we would have this this fear.
6:47
Speaker 2: Probably not. I mean, I think you're right. I think
6:49
Speaker 2: the idea that that we the the the phrase artificial intelligence,
6:55
Speaker 2: I think is is a is a is a great.
6:59
Speaker 2: It's too words together. It's great branding, whoever whoever came
7:04
Speaker 2: up with.
7:04
Speaker 1: It, I guess it is. But I you know, let
7:06
Speaker 1: me ask you this. Do you like to eat artificial beef,
7:10
Speaker 1: artificial chicken, artificial vegetables?
7:14
Speaker 2: I absolutely don't, But my vegetarian mom does.
7:19
Speaker 1: Well. The artificial beef, sure, but not the artificial what
7:22
Speaker 1: I eat artificial vegetables? Right?
7:25
Speaker 2: No, definitely not artificial vegetables. But yeah, I see I
7:27
Speaker 2: see you getting that. I mean, I mean, no, it's
7:30
Speaker 2: it's it's weird. I mean in that to that, to
7:33
Speaker 2: that extent, you know, maybe maybe it shouldn't be as
7:39
Speaker 2: popular it is given the fact that it's like artificial intelligence.
7:42
Speaker 2: What does that mean exactly? That just means like a
7:45
Speaker 2: lesser form of intelligence.
7:48
Speaker 1: Right, which is why it's interesting to me that we
7:50
Speaker 1: we we assume it's superior.
7:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I don't think everybody assumes it's superior.
7:57
Speaker 1: Yeah no, I think I think that it's fair. Let
8:00
Speaker 1: me go back to the premise. So you had a
8:03
Speaker 1: successful documentary, which means that you actually people threw said, hey,
8:08
Speaker 1: we'll throw some money at you if you can do
8:10
Speaker 1: this topic. Was that how this worked going there? Or
8:14
Speaker 1: was it more of you wanted to do AI and
8:16
Speaker 1: you found interest in the topic.
8:21
Speaker 2: So it was a little bit of both. I think
8:23
Speaker 2: that around the time that I started thinking about the documentary,
8:28
Speaker 2: I was on the picket lines because I'm in the
8:30
Speaker 2: Writer's Guild and I was picketing around Netflix. And part
8:33
Speaker 2: of the reason that we were picketing was because of
8:36
Speaker 2: AI concerns, right, you know, we were worried that the
8:40
Speaker 2: studios were going to start using chat, GPT and other
8:45
Speaker 2: llms to create to write screenplays and basically just access
8:48
Speaker 2: out of the conversation entirely. And so we were trying
8:53
Speaker 2: to get some guardrails around that, and that that was
8:57
Speaker 2: a big, big part of the reason for this strike.
9:00
Speaker 2: And so AI was obviously like hugely on my mind,
9:04
Speaker 2: and I wanted I wanted answers to a couple of
9:08
Speaker 2: different different questions. I mean, firstly, like, how is this
9:12
Speaker 2: going to affect my children's future? My son, you know,
9:16
Speaker 2: he has been into coding since he was a little kid.
9:20
Speaker 2: He was he even went to this after school program
9:23
Speaker 2: called Code Ninjas they have in some in some cities
9:27
Speaker 2: where basically they you know, kids who are interested in coding,
9:30
Speaker 2: they teach them. And he was learning how to codet roadblocks,
9:34
Speaker 2: games and stuff like that. And how do I explain
9:37
Speaker 2: to him? I wanted to ask Sam Altman to like,
9:40
Speaker 2: what do I say to my son that he's not
9:41
Speaker 2: going to have be able to have a job coding
9:43
Speaker 2: when he grows up, because you won't, Adam.
9:46
Speaker 1: We just we spent the last thirty years saying, hey,
9:50
Speaker 1: we've got to change our education system so that it
9:54
Speaker 1: prepares folks for the jobs of the twenty first century,
9:57
Speaker 1: so it became STEM STEM SIM right, you know, science, technology,
10:02
Speaker 1: education and all that. Right, it was all about STEM.
10:05
Speaker 1: And now I mean, you know, your son is young
10:09
Speaker 1: enough that there you might be able to pivot in.
10:12
Speaker 1: But this is a useless skill in this day and age.
10:17
Speaker 1: And yet ten years ago it was seen as the goal,
10:21
Speaker 1: you know, the skill to have the number one skill
10:25
Speaker 1: to half that you wanted to be able to say
10:27
Speaker 1: you did. So I'm with you. This is a scary
10:30
Speaker 1: time for parents because how do you know if you're
10:35
Speaker 1: preparing your kid for their adulthood and the speed of
10:40
Speaker 1: technological change is such that we don't know how to
10:44
Speaker 1: do it. And this is why I think we're all
10:46
Speaker 1: sort of confused at even what kind of public education
10:48
Speaker 1: system we need to have.
10:50
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, so that was one of the first things
10:53
Speaker 2: that I wanted to ask Sam Almon, and obviously one
10:57
Speaker 2: of the inspirations for this journey and embarking on this documentary.
11:04
Speaker 2: I talked to a few different whistleblowers from Open AI,
11:07
Speaker 2: people who are on the inside, couple who you see
11:10
Speaker 2: in the film, couple who did not want to be
11:12
Speaker 2: in the film, but I still talk to off the record.
11:16
Speaker 2: They all told me that by the time my son
11:19
Speaker 2: was eighteen, any job that could be done on a
11:23
Speaker 2: computer would be done by AI. A human would no
11:26
Speaker 2: longer have that job. So so to answer your question, like,
11:31
Speaker 2: suddenly education for stuff like plumbing and manual labor type
11:38
Speaker 2: of jobs is seeming a lot more you know, valuable.
11:44
Speaker 1: They Why get these tech bros figure out how to
11:47
Speaker 1: how to improve leaky faucets?
11:49
Speaker 2: That's the thing is, like, I mean they will, we
11:52
Speaker 2: will at some point, but robots are going to be
11:54
Speaker 2: the kind of last thing to happen because they're the hardest,
11:57
Speaker 2: They're they're the most difficult thing to create and have
12:04
Speaker 2: it actually work. So anything anything done on a computer, though,
12:09
Speaker 2: it's like potentially within the next three years even well,
12:15
Speaker 2: that job will be gone. That job will be done
12:17
Speaker 2: by AI entirely.
12:19
Speaker 1: I imagine another question you'd want to do to ask
12:22
Speaker 1: sam As is how do you how are we supposed
12:26
Speaker 1: to teach critical thinking if you just have somebody else
12:28
Speaker 1: do the thinking for you.
12:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, maybe we aren't teaching critical thinking in
12:36
Speaker 2: the future, But then how does that change our brains?
12:39
Speaker 2: How does that change society? That's scary to think about.
12:44
Speaker 2: But these are things that like I think we have
12:47
Speaker 2: to think.
12:47
Speaker 1: About right now, man, the president, my son's at attending SMU,
12:53
Speaker 1: and he used to be the president, the president of
12:55
Speaker 1: the university, used to be the president at UT Austin.
12:58
Speaker 1: And here's theory of the case. He actually thinks that,
13:02
Speaker 1: you know, just as most universities had been shifting away
13:05
Speaker 1: from liberal arts educations, liberal arts majors, like remember, you know,
13:09
Speaker 1: there was this you know, firestorm about five years ago
13:12
Speaker 1: when you had multiple universities saying there's no longer going
13:16
Speaker 1: to be an English department, there's no longer in there
13:18
Speaker 1: going to be majors in that. And now actually he
13:21
Speaker 1: thinks just the opposite, that all of these sides and
13:25
Speaker 1: all the stem that they thought they had to have
13:28
Speaker 1: in order to entice the next generation a student, that
13:31
Speaker 1: actually university and college education will be the classics again,
13:36
Speaker 1: because actually it's the root education that people are going
13:39
Speaker 1: to need in order to know how to prompt your
13:42
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence machine.
13:46
Speaker 2: That definitely assumes a world where humans are still in
13:50
Speaker 2: the equation, you know, because people say, like, well, what
13:55
Speaker 2: you can do right now? You know, the the best
13:59
Speaker 2: way to prepare for this is to prepare for the
14:01
Speaker 2: fact that that it's not going to be AI taking
14:05
Speaker 2: over your job. It's going to be a human who
14:08
Speaker 2: really knows how to use AI well taking over your job.
14:12
Speaker 2: That's one philosophy. I don't know if that's necessarily true.
14:15
Speaker 2: That assumes that humans will still be in the equation
14:19
Speaker 2: in the future. I can't. I can't predict or promise
14:24
Speaker 2: that's even true.
14:26
Speaker 1: I think the one thing, I just think that as
14:28
Speaker 1: we're as a species, we're not going to allow ourselves
14:31
Speaker 1: to be replaced. Now, the question is how do we
14:34
Speaker 1: express that sentiment? You know, at one point, do we
14:40
Speaker 1: feel as if it's actually coming and we have to
14:42
Speaker 1: fight back? Right and and but that's how I have optimism.
14:46
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, we're we're a clever species. We have
14:49
Speaker 1: figured out how to survive a lot in order to
14:52
Speaker 1: to to survive on this planet. I can't imagine we're
14:55
Speaker 1: going to let robots replace this.
14:58
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think. I don't think we're gonna
15:00
Speaker 2: let it happen, but it we may not have a choice.
15:05
Speaker 2: I think that that's part of the You know that
15:08
Speaker 2: there's a few schools of thought on this, right, Like,
15:12
Speaker 2: there's one school of thought is that AI will completely
15:15
Speaker 2: wipe us off the face of the earth. And it
15:17
Speaker 2: won't do it for nefarious reasons, right, it'll do it because,
15:20
Speaker 2: for example, logical you program it to say, like, hey,
15:25
Speaker 2: rid the world of pollution. Well, what's the first thing
15:28
Speaker 2: that we're the worst?
15:29
Speaker 1: Right, We're the number one cause of pollution.
15:31
Speaker 2: You're the polluter. So the first thing logically would be
15:34
Speaker 2: destroy all humans. And you know what it would be,
15:36
Speaker 2: right because we we we don't take care of this,
15:40
Speaker 2: this this earth, So destroy us this.
15:43
Speaker 1: Did you ever watch the sci fi series that Seth
15:47
Speaker 1: MacFarland did called The Orville.
15:49
Speaker 2: No, no, I haven't.
15:51
Speaker 1: He dabbles in this. It's a few years old, but
15:53
Speaker 1: they there's one, you know, it's sort of a Star
15:55
Speaker 1: Trek homage, right, and one of the species he creates
16:01
Speaker 1: is a planet that was taken over by bots for
16:05
Speaker 1: what you just described.
16:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's completely logical. But there is another school of
16:13
Speaker 2: thought that AI will just keep us around because it
16:18
Speaker 2: will find some type of use for us. Then there's
16:23
Speaker 2: a third school of thought where all those are ridiculous
16:27
Speaker 2: and that AI actually has no motivation to destroy us, Like,
16:31
Speaker 2: there's no underlying motivation there, so why would it do that?
16:35
Speaker 2: And anybody who thinks that it would is just really
16:37
Speaker 2: just like a doomsayer.
16:39
Speaker 1: Well, in some ways it's the argument over gun regulation.
16:42
Speaker 1: Are guns good or bad? Or the people that use
16:44
Speaker 1: guns good or bad? Right? Is AI good or bad?
16:47
Speaker 1: Or is it a neutral entity? And it's who's using
16:50
Speaker 1: the AI that can use it for good or use
16:52
Speaker 1: it for bad? Right?
16:55
Speaker 2: Speaking of guns, did you know that Sam Alman has
16:58
Speaker 2: a he has a collection of assault rifles. He's a
17:02
Speaker 2: gun nut. He has this giant collection of assault rifles
17:05
Speaker 2: and grenades and all kinds of crazy stuff in his house,
17:08
Speaker 2: one of his houses in Big sur And he's like
17:12
Speaker 2: a prepper. He's a doomsday press. I thought that was
17:14
Speaker 2: a really interesting fact.
17:16
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's funny. Wealth and doomsday prepping seems
17:20
Speaker 1: to go hand in hand, right, because I guess you,
17:23
Speaker 1: if you have the means right, you do it. It
17:28
Speaker 1: does seem as if it is wealth. I don't I
17:32
Speaker 1: wonder what drives it. It's they have so much money
17:34
Speaker 1: you want to be around to use it. I don't
17:36
Speaker 1: know what it is, but I don't mean to stereotype,
17:39
Speaker 1: but I feel like that goes you hear about this, right,
17:44
Speaker 1: the wealthy people are the ones building the shelters or
17:47
Speaker 1: what we saw was Zuckerberg's compound and Hawai and things
17:50
Speaker 1: like that.
17:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a few years back. I was researching
17:55
Speaker 2: for a potential documentary on the Sea Stetter movement, and
17:59
Speaker 2: you know, it's these it's these this tech elite who
18:03
Speaker 2: want to actually move off to like islands, man made
18:07
Speaker 2: islands in the ocean, like in the middle of the
18:09
Speaker 2: ocean where there's no specific you know, national nation, no
18:14
Speaker 2: nation controls, so that they can create their own sort
18:18
Speaker 2: of islands and unto themselves and do whatever they want
18:22
Speaker 2: to do. I guess it's similar to Musk, like going
18:24
Speaker 2: you know, going to Mars, right, But yeah, I think
18:27
Speaker 2: there's also a certain paranoia to these people, like they're
18:31
Speaker 2: deeply paranoid individuals.
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20:37
Speaker 1: And at the time, he said, it seemed like half
20:39
Speaker 1: of Silicon Valley was obsessed with living forever, and that
20:43
Speaker 1: this wasn't a small percentage that it was literally because
20:46
Speaker 1: they had you know, perhaps it was because they they
20:49
Speaker 1: have more money than lifespan, right, And what's the one
20:52
Speaker 1: thing that's the hardest to buy is time, And so
20:56
Speaker 1: there was this obsession. He said, if a mayor Arkas
21:00
Speaker 1: understood the psyche of Silicon Valley, they wouldn't buy any
21:04
Speaker 1: more electronics. It would scare the Bejesus out of them.
21:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if that's necessarily true.
21:10
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, let's go back to the premise. When
21:17
Speaker 1: did you start filming in a way that you knew
21:22
Speaker 1: this was going to be the premise of the film
21:23
Speaker 1: and that you were going to have to that the
21:26
Speaker 1: journey to get Sam Altman was actually going to be
21:29
Speaker 1: the documentary versus did you start thinking, well, let's put
21:33
Speaker 1: this on tape in case of emergency. Was it always
21:37
Speaker 1: in case of emergency or did you know pretty quick
21:41
Speaker 1: Altman's never sitting down with me. Maybe I'll get him
21:43
Speaker 1: at the very end because of you know, a Keras
21:45
Speaker 1: swish or xt or something like that, but ultimately it's
21:49
Speaker 1: probably not going to happen. Well, when did you know
21:52
Speaker 1: in your brain what you were doing was more than just,
21:56
Speaker 1: you know, just putting something in on tape just in case.
22:01
Speaker 2: I really thought this was going to be a layup
22:04
Speaker 2: getting an interview with him. I didn't think it was
22:06
Speaker 2: going to be that difficult. I guess maybe I was
22:08
Speaker 2: naive in that, but I've but I've I've gotten some
22:12
Speaker 2: pretty difficult interview I mean, I interviewed Juliana Sanche in
22:15
Speaker 2: the in the in the embassy, and and.
22:18
Speaker 1: And everybody of everybody, right, so.
22:22
Speaker 2: I've gotten some I've gotten some really hard interviews because
22:25
Speaker 2: I'd never give up, and so I thought this would
22:27
Speaker 2: be an easy one. I had, we had friends in common, right,
22:30
Speaker 2: like I had a cell phone number, like I didn't
22:34
Speaker 2: think they're and then coming off with the success of
22:36
Speaker 2: of of my series Telemarketers, I thought that this, this
22:40
Speaker 2: would be a perfect opportunity. And strangely, it just didn't happen.
22:47
Speaker 2: It never happened. I still haven't even heard from him,
22:50
Speaker 2: like even even.
22:52
Speaker 1: Even have you heard from people who've heard from him. No, yeah,
22:58
Speaker 1: not even a secondhand.
22:59
Speaker 2: Not been a secondhand, like you know, not even.
23:03
Speaker 1: His lawyer suing you to not do this, Like not
23:05
Speaker 1: even not even a legal outreach, huh.
23:08
Speaker 2: Not a lawyer, not not a publicist, not nobody, absolutely
23:15
Speaker 2: no one connected to him in any way, shape or form.
23:19
Speaker 2: I expect though I will at some point, Like this
23:22
Speaker 2: movie just came out right and and in theaters in
23:26
Speaker 2: New York last week, and then it'll be in d
23:29
Speaker 2: C this weekend, so as it as it starts to
23:34
Speaker 2: roll out nationwide and gain more steam, I feel like
23:37
Speaker 2: at some point he's gonna have to say something, He's
23:39
Speaker 2: gonna have to comment on it. We actually called him.
23:43
Speaker 2: We called his cell phone during the Q and A
23:46
Speaker 2: on Saturday at the at the at the Quad in
23:50
Speaker 2: New York, Me and and Benny Saftie called it, called
23:54
Speaker 2: his cell phone and left a message. So he got them.
23:57
Speaker 2: He got the message that the movie is premiering, and
23:59
Speaker 2: I invited him to the screening in LA so we'll see.
24:02
Speaker 2: I don't think he's going to show.
24:04
Speaker 1: What what's interesting here and what to me is different
24:09
Speaker 1: from Roger and Me? Is that again? I go back
24:11
Speaker 1: to look, I think you're definitely a skeptic coming into this,
24:17
Speaker 1: but you I don't feel like you have a score
24:20
Speaker 1: to settle, Like did you have any history? I mean,
24:23
Speaker 1: am I missing something here? I'm just trying to figure
24:25
Speaker 1: out how what made you so threatening?
24:29
Speaker 2: Right? That's the key difference I think, you know, with
24:32
Speaker 2: Roger and Me, Michael Moore had a score to settle
24:35
Speaker 2: in terms of like and him and his friends were
24:38
Speaker 2: all fired, right.
24:40
Speaker 1: And in a weird way. I could see the PR
24:42
Speaker 1: team going, oh man, just no, there's no good that
24:44
Speaker 1: comes from that. Like I could picture the core way
24:47
Speaker 1: corporate communications work, the way legal counsels work, you know,
24:51
Speaker 1: you know, even if Roger Smith wanted to have talking no, no, no, right,
24:55
Speaker 1: don't do it like this a company that's desperate to
24:59
Speaker 1: say not here to know, we're not scary, we're we're okay.
25:05
Speaker 1: He has done some semi revealing interviews already. So it
25:11
Speaker 1: was a strange. It's just strange to me that you
25:16
Speaker 1: struggled with this.
25:17
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, for me, it was very different from from
25:24
Speaker 2: Michael Moore. And and to your point, it seems like
25:26
Speaker 2: he would want to he would want to answer questions like, hey,
25:31
Speaker 2: what how will this affect my son when he grows up? Hey,
25:35
Speaker 2: how how will this affect me as as a filmmaker?
25:39
Speaker 2: And you have this like interest in Hollywood all of
25:43
Speaker 2: a sudden, like he was sending his people to his
25:45
Speaker 2: minions down from Sora to meet with a lot of
25:48
Speaker 2: my filmmaking friends and try to court them right, And
25:52
Speaker 2: a lot of my director friends were like having these
25:55
Speaker 2: like lunch meetings with Sora where they were like, oh,
25:58
Speaker 2: we want you to use our technic, you know, And
26:01
Speaker 2: of course everybody was like, you know, screw your technology,
26:04
Speaker 2: like we want nothing to do with this with this technology.
26:08
Speaker 2: But it does seem odd like what and I always wondered,
26:12
Speaker 2: like what does he have to hide. I don't think
26:16
Speaker 2: any of the interviews he did were because I've seen
26:19
Speaker 2: pretty much all of them. I don't think any of
26:21
Speaker 2: them were very revealing at all. I don't think he
26:23
Speaker 2: answers questions from the heart. I think everything is completely
26:28
Speaker 2: pr manipulated, and I and I and I guarantee you
26:32
Speaker 2: he already has an answer for the question about my movie,
26:37
Speaker 2: like he's already been trained on what to say about that.
26:40
Speaker 2: The other funny thing is, uh, his We have this
26:43
Speaker 2: friend in common who gave me a cell phone number
26:45
Speaker 2: who will remain nameless, told me he has AI read
26:49
Speaker 2: all his emails and text messages and summarize them back
26:52
Speaker 2: to him. He never he doesn't actually read any of them.
26:57
Speaker 1: Well, that's just a strange, you know. And I think
27:00
Speaker 1: this gets back to who's building these technologies, and what
27:04
Speaker 1: is their life experience and how many you know. One
27:08
Speaker 1: of my favorite Kerash swisherisms where she gets she can
27:11
Speaker 1: be a little snarky, shockingly and I say this with love,
27:15
Speaker 1: she's a good friend, is when she sort of implied,
27:19
Speaker 1: you know, Mark Zuckerberg, you know, nineteen year old at
27:22
Speaker 1: Harvard didn't know how to talk to girls in person,
27:24
Speaker 1: So he came up with a hack to try to
27:27
Speaker 1: get a date. YadA, YadA, YadA. We had Facebook, you know,
27:34
Speaker 1: and so many of these sort of tech developments have
27:40
Speaker 1: come to fruition based on, you know, a desire. Hey,
27:45
Speaker 1: these were lonely kids, so they wanted to create artificial friends,
27:48
Speaker 1: right like, rather than thinking how does the average person
27:52
Speaker 1: live life? And you often wonder with some of these
27:56
Speaker 1: tech bros, are they fixing problems that were more unique
28:02
Speaker 1: because they were their problems, not are not society's problems, right?
28:08
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I think that's a that that's
28:13
Speaker 2: a minority of them. Sadly, I think most of them
28:17
Speaker 2: are just trying to get rich. And I've I've talked
28:20
Speaker 2: to plenty of them who were or even people who
28:23
Speaker 2: worked for certain tech titans, who were just working on
28:27
Speaker 2: products that they knew had no reason to even exist
28:31
Speaker 2: in the world other than to just get some get
28:33
Speaker 2: a few people rich.
28:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean social media. I think the initial idea
28:41
Speaker 1: of social media wasn't about money making, and then it
28:45
Speaker 1: became a perverted money making operation and obviously it's now
28:49
Speaker 1: the mess that it is today.
28:51
Speaker 2: Right social media. You know, I've had these discussions recently
28:57
Speaker 2: similar discussions about AI that that we have about social media.
29:02
Speaker 2: There was a woman who came to one of my
29:05
Speaker 2: screenings who runs an organization I wish I could remember
29:09
Speaker 2: the name now, but it's a it's like sort of
29:11
Speaker 2: like mothers, like Mother's against drunk driving, but it's like
29:15
Speaker 2: mothers against social media.
29:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, no, it's called Mama. I interviewed her
29:19
Speaker 1: Mother's against Media Addiction. I think she calls it, Yes,
29:23
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken.
29:23
Speaker 2: So she came to my screening, loved the film Lovely
29:28
Speaker 2: person and and I and I and I I so
29:33
Speaker 2: I respect what her mission I have. I have a son,
29:36
Speaker 2: and and you know, I want the best for him.
29:40
Speaker 2: But I also I'm wary about wholesale like uh, wiping
29:47
Speaker 2: these these technologies off the face of the earth, because
29:49
Speaker 2: then I'm also always reminded of social media, and I'm
29:53
Speaker 2: always reminded of the Arab Spring, and we quickly forget that. Yes,
30:00
Speaker 2: these things can cause problems and trauma on you know,
30:05
Speaker 2: privileged kids in the first world, but they can also
30:09
Speaker 2: completely change like the entire trajectory of a country overseas.
30:19
Speaker 2: And so it's it's.
30:21
Speaker 1: Abou Yeah, but what was The real lesson of the
30:23
Speaker 1: Arab Spring is that totalitarian countries realized, oh, screw this,
30:28
Speaker 1: We're going to weaponize it. And so now in some
30:31
Speaker 1: cases I take your point there, and I think, look,
30:33
Speaker 1: we all bought. I bought the good of the Arab
30:37
Speaker 1: Spring at the time, you thought, Okay, this is what
30:39
Speaker 1: it was about. This really is democratizing the ability to
30:43
Speaker 1: speak out and democratizing all of this, and then governments
30:47
Speaker 1: figured out how to weaponize it, and then we got
30:50
Speaker 1: what the world we live in right now, you know,
30:53
Speaker 1: arguably between twenty sixteen and today.
30:58
Speaker 2: Sure it know. In regards to AI, this is another
31:03
Speaker 2: thing that I that that I think I spoke about
31:06
Speaker 2: recently at at at a q and a was. I
31:09
Speaker 2: read this article about this, this young female documentary filmmaker
31:14
Speaker 2: in China who was using AI to tell her stories
31:21
Speaker 2: about the government and about life there that she would
31:26
Speaker 2: no never be able to tell uh without because for
31:31
Speaker 2: various reasons, obviously because she'd be arrested or because of
31:34
Speaker 2: the government, but also because she didn't have the resources,
31:37
Speaker 2: a camera or anything to actually film. So there there
31:41
Speaker 2: will be I think benefits, There will be interesting things
31:44
Speaker 2: that come out of this. And again I'm I'm all
31:48
Speaker 2: for for for strong regulation, but I'm not for just
31:53
Speaker 2: like wholesale discounting a technology. And so it's it was
31:58
Speaker 2: an interesting it was interesting talking to her about AI,
32:02
Speaker 2: and I feel like her viewpoint on AI was very
32:04
Speaker 2: much like, we need to shut this effing thing down completely.
32:10
Speaker 2: And a few people have come to me with that
32:12
Speaker 2: at Q and A's and been a little bit upset
32:14
Speaker 2: with me because I'm not that person. I'm not saying that.
32:18
Speaker 1: How would we just erase the technology? I just don't
32:21
Speaker 1: buy When have we ever done that in the history
32:24
Speaker 1: of civilization?
32:26
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, it's it's largely impossible.
32:30
Speaker 1: Let's let's blow up the Gutenberg, you know, let's get
32:34
Speaker 1: rid of the printing press. Yeah, this is causing educating
32:37
Speaker 1: too many people, the serfs what too many are spreading
32:40
Speaker 1: too many ideas.
32:43
Speaker 2: So on the flip side, the reason sam Almon has
32:45
Speaker 2: become so powerful is the is the one of the argument,
32:51
Speaker 2: and I'm now I'm going to argue against myself.
32:53
Speaker 1: Right.
32:54
Speaker 2: One of his things is this fear based tactic where
32:57
Speaker 2: he came to d C and he met with all
32:59
Speaker 2: the general and he met with all he met with
33:01
Speaker 2: all the weapons people and he said, look, if China
33:03
Speaker 2: beats us at this, we're dead. So he put the
33:07
Speaker 2: fear of God and all these people that we in
33:10
Speaker 2: DC that we need to start spending money, money, money, money,
33:13
Speaker 2: because we have to beat China, because it's like some
33:16
Speaker 2: crazy arms race that like.
33:19
Speaker 1: Well, how do you why did we get why did
33:21
Speaker 1: we go to the moon?
33:23
Speaker 2: I mean, did we go to the moon? It's just kidding,
33:25
Speaker 2: but yeah, yeah, exactly. It was to beat the Soviets.
33:28
Speaker 2: If there's no Cold War, we don't go to the moon. Yeah.
33:31
Speaker 2: And that's why altman's so smart too, because he completely
33:35
Speaker 2: sees that, and he's using that playbook now to make
33:37
Speaker 2: himself incredibly rich. You know, Opening Eye was a nonprofit
33:41
Speaker 2: when I started this film. Halfway through production, overnight he
33:46
Speaker 2: created he turned it into a for profit company and
33:48
Speaker 2: made himself what was it, seven or nine billion dollars overnight. Right,
33:52
Speaker 2: Like he's just he's a super villain.
33:56
Speaker 1: That's an interesting Are you sure he's a bad act?
34:01
Speaker 2: I am? I am now. I wasn't when I went
34:03
Speaker 2: into this, and I wanted to give him the benefit
34:05
Speaker 2: of the doubt. But every move that he's made since
34:09
Speaker 2: then has shown me that he is a Marvel level
34:13
Speaker 2: super villain.
34:15
Speaker 1: Hm. Wow, that's a I mean, I look the picture
34:19
Speaker 1: you're painting. I I get it. I understand where you're
34:23
Speaker 1: coming from. I mean, I guess Sam Altman or Elon Musk.
34:29
Speaker 1: Which one is your is more marvel like in their
34:33
Speaker 1: villain villain is.
34:34
Speaker 2: Oh, Elon easily, and mainly because Elon at least has
34:38
Speaker 2: a personality, right He's.
34:41
Speaker 1: I joke that if you made the Bond film and
34:43
Speaker 1: you said the villain was named the Bond villain was
34:46
Speaker 1: named Elon Musk, You're like, you wouldn't even change the name.
34:48
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, that's a perfect name.
34:51
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, he I mean he's got he see, al
34:54
Speaker 2: Ben doesn't really have a personality. Elon's is a weird
34:57
Speaker 2: guy who names his kids X three, Jay five and
35:01
Speaker 2: like you know, uh, wants to go to Mars and
35:05
Speaker 2: is and is and spouts off out the craziest stuff
35:10
Speaker 2: you could possibly think of. Allman is very like even keeled.
35:13
Speaker 2: Doesn't make him any any less of a villain though,
35:16
Speaker 2: but he's but he's less interesting in terms of Marvel characteristics.
35:20
Speaker 1: Does he scare you more than the folks at Google? Oh?
35:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, But maybe that's Google's what that's going to be, right,
35:30
Speaker 2: I mean Google is now right, Gemini is overtaken chat
35:35
Speaker 2: TPT and some of the measurement scores, and you know,
35:38
Speaker 2: Google is reminding open ai of what it's like when
35:41
Speaker 2: you have.
35:42
Speaker 1: All the resources that Google has, when they change, when
35:46
Speaker 1: when they sort of focus their efforts. Uh, they've made
35:49
Speaker 1: some big leaps and bounds, and they have you know,
35:51
Speaker 1: all these Android phones running around already that they can
35:54
Speaker 1: immediately sort of embed themselves in. Now Apple got to
35:58
Speaker 1: deal with Google. I mean, you know, so I could
36:00
Speaker 1: argue that that this has been a bad year for
36:03
Speaker 1: Sam Altman because of how Google is in some ways
36:09
Speaker 1: caught up to open AI.
36:12
Speaker 2: So it's an interesting point. And I would also I'll
36:16
Speaker 2: tell you going into this film, I took a chance
36:19
Speaker 2: on Sam Altman, right, like he he could completely disappear
36:24
Speaker 2: off the face of the earth by the end of
36:28
Speaker 2: this year and be sort of like a flash in
36:30
Speaker 2: the pan that nobody remembers his name, or he could
36:35
Speaker 2: be the next Steve Jobs. Making this movie, I took
36:38
Speaker 2: a chance on him that he would be like a
36:41
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs type figure in the future, because obviously, you know,
36:47
Speaker 2: I didn't make this movie for right now. I also
36:50
Speaker 2: made it for the future. I want I wanted this,
36:52
Speaker 2: this movie to be still watched. And all filmmakers do, right,
36:56
Speaker 2: We all want our movies to watched five ten years
36:58
Speaker 2: down the road. So I so in that regard, I
37:02
Speaker 2: agree with you, Like I don't know, I don't, I
37:04
Speaker 2: don't totally you know, but I I know that I gamble.
37:07
Speaker 2: I'm gambling on him in a way that and gambling
37:12
Speaker 2: on open Ai that it will beat Gemini, that it
37:15
Speaker 2: will that it will beat Anthropic and be be the
37:18
Speaker 2: number one, be the Apple, because that will just make
37:21
Speaker 2: my movie more relevant. Right.
37:24
Speaker 1: But taking that away, I mean, are you just gambling
37:26
Speaker 1: on him or or you just believe that because everything
37:30
Speaker 1: you've learned? I mean, do you think he is just unique?
37:32
Speaker 1: Like Jobs? Jobs had a uniqueness to him, right? And
37:36
Speaker 1: you know in some ways that the Walter Isaacs and
37:39
Speaker 1: biography sort of you know, painted a picture. It's like, okay,
37:43
Speaker 1: he was he was so obsessed with what he was
37:47
Speaker 1: doing that you know, wasn't the best father and wasn't
37:49
Speaker 1: the best this, and wasn't the best that is is
37:52
Speaker 1: is there a drive and altment that you think is
37:55
Speaker 1: just superior to whatever Google can do.
37:58
Speaker 2: Again, I don't know too much much about the people
38:01
Speaker 2: that run Google, but I do know a lot about
38:04
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs. I mean he as young as a younger
38:08
Speaker 2: college student that he was a hero of mine. I
38:10
Speaker 2: read Walter Risey's an incredible book seeing all the movies
38:15
Speaker 2: about jobs, and there's a similar thing running through Altman
38:18
Speaker 2: in Jobs. For sure, there's a similar drive that they
38:23
Speaker 2: just don't care who gets hurt along the way. They're
38:28
Speaker 2: just going to plow forward and take over the world.
38:35
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40:19
Speaker 1: to Wosnick about jobs?
40:20
Speaker 2: Have you ever met with those loves to I'm also
40:23
Speaker 2: a huge fan of Was. I would love I would
40:25
Speaker 2: love to talk to him one day, because.
40:27
Speaker 1: You know, there's always been these different theories like what
40:29
Speaker 1: what's an alternative like in the in an alternative universe?
40:32
Speaker 1: What if it? What if jobs? You know, when he
40:34
Speaker 1: leaves Apple, wosnick Is sort of takes over and he's
40:37
Speaker 1: the you know, what would Apple be the same? Would
40:42
Speaker 1: it have been? You know, it's what it's an unanswerable
40:44
Speaker 1: question now. But Woznick was always seen as sort of
40:47
Speaker 1: the moral center for jobs, right, he was sort of
40:50
Speaker 1: the ethical that he would and I think even you know,
40:53
Speaker 1: and he wasn't It didn't seem like wosny CK's motivation
40:57
Speaker 1: was financial.
41:00
Speaker 2: No, I mean I think I think it wouldn't have
41:03
Speaker 2: been the same. And I also I don't think it
41:05
Speaker 2: would have been as successful because just from what I've read,
41:10
Speaker 2: Wa was was just too nice of a guy.
41:12
Speaker 1: Right, So, which, of course, is these dilemmas when you're
41:16
Speaker 1: when you when we deal with these supposed you know,
41:19
Speaker 1: are we supposed to accept that the only successful disruptors
41:25
Speaker 1: to develop technologies that are amazing, you know, have to
41:29
Speaker 1: be assholes?
41:32
Speaker 2: I don't think we have to accept it. I think
41:34
Speaker 2: that we for some reason as a society, we we
41:39
Speaker 2: not only do we let it happen, but but like
41:41
Speaker 2: we we we perpetuate that, like we prop that up.
41:46
Speaker 2: I don't think they have to be I don't. I
41:50
Speaker 2: really don't. I think I think nice guys can can
41:53
Speaker 2: get ahead. But as a society, this is, this is
41:55
Speaker 2: what we've I think we're taught even growing up.
42:00
Speaker 1: Especially the great CEOs. You know, they're they're they're ruthless,
42:04
Speaker 1: and you have to be ruthless to succeed. And then
42:06
Speaker 1: I want to say, have you met the CEO of Costco.
42:11
Speaker 1: You know, he's a pretty successful dude, and his employees
42:14
Speaker 1: love him because he pays her employees pretty well, and
42:17
Speaker 1: he's you know, he's different than the average average bottom
42:21
Speaker 1: line ceo.
42:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's it's a narrative that we buy
42:25
Speaker 2: into and that we teach our kids. And I was
42:27
Speaker 2: believe me, I was taught at and it took me
42:30
Speaker 2: a while, And it took me. It took me following
42:36
Speaker 2: shadowing certain directors that were really genuinely good, nice people
42:41
Speaker 2: like Jim Jarmish to realize you don't have to be
42:44
Speaker 2: an asshole director.
42:46
Speaker 1: Well, by the way, I'm glad you just brought that up, right.
42:49
Speaker 1: Hollywood's riddled with stories about you know, the asshole director
42:54
Speaker 1: that made the great movies versus you know, and and
42:59
Speaker 1: is that even tolerated behavior anymore?
43:02
Speaker 2: It's not tolerated anymore. We we we really did away
43:05
Speaker 2: with it during.
43:07
Speaker 1: The Harvey basically me too in Harvey.
43:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was Harvey. Basically it was definitely tolerated. I
43:15
Speaker 2: witnessed a lot of it at the beginning, you know,
43:17
Speaker 2: because I've been doing this for twenty five years. Like
43:21
Speaker 2: I knew, I knew Brett Rattner, for instance, Like I
43:26
Speaker 2: saw him do terrible, horrible people, horrible things to people.
43:31
Speaker 2: But then on the flip side, you know, I worked
43:34
Speaker 2: with alongside people like Jim Jarmish who couldn't couldn't have
43:37
Speaker 2: been the most complete opposite of a Brett Rattner. But
43:41
Speaker 2: we've largely like disposed of those people. The scary thing
43:47
Speaker 2: is I see them like starting to slowly creep back in.
43:50
Speaker 2: So I think we I think I think we need
43:53
Speaker 2: to like, you know, keep keep up, keep on our tone.
43:56
Speaker 1: Well, I mean this is where political leaders may have
43:58
Speaker 1: offered a permission and selg or bad behavior again exactly exactly.
44:03
Speaker 2: I mean, that's part of it. And unfortunately, like younger
44:06
Speaker 2: generations pick up on that, and you know, bad behavior
44:12
Speaker 2: starts to become in vogue. Again, let me go back.
44:18
Speaker 1: To the to the movie. What do you want people
44:23
Speaker 1: to take away?
44:25
Speaker 2: So to me, there's a lot of anxiety around AI
44:31
Speaker 2: and you know, people are worried. People are worried, is
44:34
Speaker 2: it's going to take my job? Is is this what's
44:38
Speaker 2: going to happen to my to my kids, what's going
44:40
Speaker 2: to happen to humans in general? Like, there's there's a
44:44
Speaker 2: lot of talk, right, and I don't my movie doesn't
44:49
Speaker 2: have any easy answers. But what I would like people
44:53
Speaker 2: to take away. And part of the reason why I'm
44:54
Speaker 2: like going around the country and like doing Q and
44:57
Speaker 2: a's and talking about this film is because I think
45:00
Speaker 2: think one of the best ways to cure anxiety is
45:03
Speaker 2: just to talk about it, right, And so if I
45:06
Speaker 2: could start conversation and get people talking, that's that's all.
45:13
Speaker 2: That's all I want to achieve. Really, that's that's the
45:16
Speaker 2: that's that's the least that I could really do to
45:19
Speaker 2: to just help people, you know, and then entertain them
45:22
Speaker 2: at the same time. It is a comedy. I want
45:24
Speaker 2: people to laugh, I want people to like.
45:26
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that because I felt this was
45:29
Speaker 1: not satire, but you were trying to You weren't trying
45:36
Speaker 1: to be boring, that was for sure. And you weren't
45:40
Speaker 1: and you weren't trying to lecture.
45:42
Speaker 2: Can I put that on the poster, go for it,
45:45
Speaker 2: that he wasn't trying to be boring Chuck tub right.
45:48
Speaker 1: Uh. But and you clearly weren't trying to lecture, right, yeah.
45:51
Speaker 1: And that's why I was curious. What what did you
45:53
Speaker 1: hope to take away? I mean, you know, I I
45:55
Speaker 1: thought it was very clever some of the things you did,
45:58
Speaker 1: which is you know, part of the process of making
46:00
Speaker 1: the film and searching for Sam Altman, and is also
46:04
Speaker 1: you went around and figured out, okay, what's the legal
46:07
Speaker 1: you talk You brought your lawyer on what can I
46:09
Speaker 1: do legally? Which I thought was an InTru you know, look,
46:14
Speaker 1: it was transparent and are you at all concerned about
46:18
Speaker 1: legal exposure on this?
46:20
Speaker 2: By the way, not at all, And I think it's
46:22
Speaker 2: for those reasons, Like I made the process extremely transparent,
46:29
Speaker 2: so no spoilers, this isn't a spoiler, but like we
46:34
Speaker 2: show the guts of like the deep fake and how
46:37
Speaker 2: we make it.
46:38
Speaker 1: Oh exactly, it's the whole process, which I think was
46:41
Speaker 1: a healthy exercise. I you know, I've had people recommend
46:46
Speaker 1: tell me I should make my own chuck bot large
46:49
Speaker 1: language model, and I am, there's I I'm like, why
46:55
Speaker 1: do I want to do that? You know, I don't know.
46:58
Speaker 1: You know, it's like upload my book and upload all that,
47:01
Speaker 1: and you're like, I don't know. I My thinking's evolved
47:05
Speaker 1: over thirty five years. I don't want to always have
47:09
Speaker 1: what I thought twenty years ago be the baseline for
47:13
Speaker 1: what my bot thinks. Anyway, It's it's a but I
47:16
Speaker 1: thought it was a healthy thing to let people know
47:19
Speaker 1: how this is done.
47:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and to be transparent that like, you know,
47:24
Speaker 2: we're not what you're seeing is not supposed to manipulate
47:28
Speaker 2: you or trick you, like, because that is where I
47:32
Speaker 2: draw the line. I think there are ethics around this,
47:34
Speaker 2: and I think when you're trying to manipulate people and
47:36
Speaker 2: trick people through deep fakes or or through AI generated video,
47:42
Speaker 2: that's just that's just wrong. That is unethical. And people
47:47
Speaker 2: ask me, well, what do we what you know, what
47:49
Speaker 2: do you think people should do about it, well, like, yeah,
47:51
Speaker 2: I think I think there should be some type of
47:53
Speaker 2: disclaimer on it in the same way that you know,
47:57
Speaker 2: back in the nineties there were parental advisory logo was
48:00
Speaker 2: on rap music that I would buy, Like you know,
48:03
Speaker 2: it's that simple. Uh, but yeah, it's it's it's a
48:07
Speaker 2: it's a huge it's a huge problem, this idea that
48:11
Speaker 2: we won't be able to tell what's real and what's
48:14
Speaker 2: not and what's AI generated in the very near future.
48:18
Speaker 1: I think sometimes when we're trying to figure out what
48:20
Speaker 1: to regulate, you almost have to go through the process
48:23
Speaker 1: of doing what you did, deep faking of a well
48:27
Speaker 1: known person to then understand what regulate, what a what
48:31
Speaker 1: a pragmatic regulatory structure would look like. So you went
48:35
Speaker 1: through this process. You might have had some idea of
48:38
Speaker 1: what it would look like before, but now that you've
48:40
Speaker 1: done it, what do you think? And now like, hey,
48:43
Speaker 1: and I say this, advise me. What are the questions
48:46
Speaker 1: I should be asking candidates running for office about AI
48:51
Speaker 1: regulation that you now understand in a way that you
48:55
Speaker 1: didn't when you started this film.
48:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I hope that candidate's running for office
49:01
Speaker 2: at at least have because some of these they are
49:04
Speaker 2: just so many dinosaurs who don't even know, like I
49:07
Speaker 2: can't even talk about this kind of stuff, But I
49:10
Speaker 2: would hope that they would, that they would be able
49:12
Speaker 2: to have a conversation and answer questions like what do
49:16
Speaker 2: we what are we going to do about AI generated
49:20
Speaker 2: video in the future, like how are we like, how
49:24
Speaker 2: are we going to differentiate it? How are we going
49:27
Speaker 2: to make sure that that our children and are like
49:30
Speaker 2: grandparents aren't like duped by this kind of stuff? Like
49:35
Speaker 2: how are you how are like how is that going
49:37
Speaker 2: to happen? How are you gonna how are you gonna
49:39
Speaker 2: do this? Like the problem is they have no idea
49:41
Speaker 2: what that even means, most of them.
49:43
Speaker 1: Can I just tell you. I can't tell you how
49:44
Speaker 1: many times I go on social media and I'll follow
49:47
Speaker 1: and somebody will say, well, we'll sort of forward a
49:50
Speaker 1: post and say, well, this is obvious AI slop and
49:53
Speaker 1: I look at at it with my fifty three year
49:56
Speaker 1: old eyes, and I'm like, going, it is I see,
49:59
Speaker 1: I don't see two knees, I don't see six fingers, right,
50:02
Speaker 1: you know, I know that the rudimentary checklist, But as
50:05
Speaker 1: we know, all this stuff gets better, you know, I
50:09
Speaker 1: think it's harder than ever to see the distinction, and
50:12
Speaker 1: yet it does seem as if people with younger eyes
50:16
Speaker 1: like you go through this in the film. Again, I
50:17
Speaker 1: apology for the spoiler, but I remember at one point,
50:20
Speaker 1: the first time you debut your your deep fake, after
50:23
Speaker 1: the whole there's kind of a little bit of a
50:26
Speaker 1: of an escapade of trying to get the Guide to
50:29
Speaker 1: the Caribbean and all that stuff. I don't want to that.
50:31
Speaker 1: I think that's a fun part of the movie. I
50:33
Speaker 1: don't want to spoil that. It's kind of a little
50:35
Speaker 1: humorous part. But I remember I think it was I
50:39
Speaker 1: think it was you or a colleague who said, oh man,
50:43
Speaker 1: my fourteen year old would not believe that that looks
50:46
Speaker 1: like a bad video game character. And I'm like, okay,
50:51
Speaker 1: if you say so, Like I didn't. I felt like,
50:54
Speaker 1: oh no, are my eyes too old to see this?
50:57
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, that was that was being a perfectionist director,
51:01
Speaker 2: I guess, but it did. You're right, some people have
51:05
Speaker 2: seen the deep Fake, and this this is like kind
51:08
Speaker 2: of a spoiler, but like some people have seen the
51:10
Speaker 2: deep Fake when it's finally created in the movie and
51:13
Speaker 2: thought like what are you talking about, Adam? That was
51:15
Speaker 2: actually really good and so yeah, it is, it is,
51:21
Speaker 2: but that to me is even scarier because I feel
51:23
Speaker 2: like then I think about, you know, certain certain members
51:29
Speaker 2: of my family who maybe aren't as like on you know,
51:32
Speaker 2: always on the internet, as as I am right being
51:36
Speaker 2: duped by this getting a getting a call. I mean,
51:40
Speaker 2: the craziest things are going to happen, right, getting a
51:42
Speaker 2: FaceTime from me, like saying like I'm in trouble, I
51:46
Speaker 2: need money, Like right now.
51:47
Speaker 1: Have you come up with the code words with your family?
51:49
Speaker 2: Yet?
51:49
Speaker 1: I keep having people tell me I should and I
51:51
Speaker 1: have it yet.
51:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, that reminds me that I have to as well.
51:56
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, right now, it's it's not so
52:00
Speaker 2: much the video, it's the voice cloning. The voice cloning
52:04
Speaker 2: is pretty.
52:06
Speaker 1: I'm personally petrified to that because of how much of
52:08
Speaker 1: my voice is out there. Yeah right, it's just sitting
52:11
Speaker 1: out there and fair used land, fair use land yet, right,
52:15
Speaker 1: And that is something that has concerned me. I don't
52:18
Speaker 1: know what to do about it. What am I suppos
52:20
Speaker 1: it's a concern? I really have, what I mean, I'm
52:24
Speaker 1: not Matthew McConaughey, who's decided to like trademark is at
52:28
Speaker 1: least some of his sayings, which is maybe he's onto something.
52:32
Speaker 1: I don't know.
52:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he is onto something. I don't think
52:37
Speaker 2: there's much we can do about it other than yeah,
52:39
Speaker 2: like have a safe word. This sounds so crazy to
52:42
Speaker 2: even talk about.
52:43
Speaker 1: It, but like, did you think twenty years ago you'd
52:45
Speaker 1: be having geez, we got to have safe words and
52:49
Speaker 1: it had nothing to do with sex. Yeah, sorry, I mean,
52:52
Speaker 1: I don't mean to go but like, you know, the
52:54
Speaker 1: first time I heard safe words, it's usually associated with that.
52:59
Speaker 2: It's it's crazy to think that we uh have to
53:03
Speaker 2: have a conversation with our kids of like, hey, or
53:07
Speaker 2: our our grandparents are our parents.
53:09
Speaker 1: Are just going to say, it's really our parents I think.
53:11
Speaker 2: Might value and I'm I'm and I'm in trouble asking
53:14
Speaker 2: for money. That might not be me, Like hold on
53:18
Speaker 2: just a second, and you know, text me on the
53:22
Speaker 2: other line because that may not be me. But that's
53:25
Speaker 2: the kind of conversations that we're going to have to
53:27
Speaker 2: have like now, like not not not now, but right now.
53:31
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny, you know, with AI safety, I mean,
53:34
Speaker 1: who should be paying for those public service announcements, like,
53:36
Speaker 1: in some ways, if this is what we have to do,
53:40
Speaker 1: and you know, there's a part of me that wonders
53:43
Speaker 1: if you start doing that as sort of like a PSA,
53:47
Speaker 1: are we accepting the premise that we're all just going
53:49
Speaker 1: to get deep faked? Or do we still want to
53:51
Speaker 1: fight this?
53:53
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think we can fight it. I
53:55
Speaker 2: think we need to accept the head premise. But maybe
53:59
Speaker 2: that's just me. But I also made this movie called
54:03
Speaker 2: Deep Faking Sam Altman.
54:06
Speaker 1: Right, speaking of making that movie, what parts of AI
54:10
Speaker 1: as a movie maker you like, Oh, man, I I
54:13
Speaker 1: I you know, I walk that picket line this or that.
54:17
Speaker 1: But boy, that's kind of nice that I could do
54:21
Speaker 1: this and this short of time. Is there some tools
54:24
Speaker 1: that you just like definitely guilty, guilty that you feel
54:28
Speaker 1: guilty about how great they are?
54:29
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, Like so I'm a documentary filmmaker. I do
54:35
Speaker 2: make more traditional documentary films. This one is is definitely
54:39
Speaker 2: a weird or more narrative hybrid one. But you know
54:42
Speaker 2: I did that the alt right documentary about Charlottesville riot.
54:46
Speaker 2: And so the ability to create, to generate archival footage,
54:53
Speaker 2: to not have to go spend.
54:56
Speaker 1: The amount of time, right to get archival footage like
54:59
Speaker 1: that that could in some ways take more time than
55:01
Speaker 1: just shooting what you're shooting, right.
55:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, like going out and hunting down a piece of
55:07
Speaker 2: archival like taking hours and hours and hours in costing
55:11
Speaker 2: maybe costing like you know, uh, tens tens of thousands
55:15
Speaker 2: of dollars to license. To be able to just sit
55:17
Speaker 2: down and create it in thirty seconds. Incredible, Like I
55:21
Speaker 2: would love to be able to do that, but we're
55:23
Speaker 2: already shutting that down. Within the documentary world. There's like
55:27
Speaker 2: a code of ethics now around AI that's being kind
55:29
Speaker 2: of passed around, which I get it, I understand, but
55:33
Speaker 2: like part of me is like, oh, man, like I
55:35
Speaker 2: that's that's that's going to make things so much easier.
55:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's what I you know, I think about
55:42
Speaker 1: this when you know, look, there's new technologies always create fear, right,
55:48
Speaker 1: there is a there's a so and and look AI
55:53
Speaker 1: AI optimists talk about this a lot, right, and it's
55:56
Speaker 1: a fair counterpoint that you know, there's we're always stopian
56:00
Speaker 1: about a new technology, but it usually is is more
56:03
Speaker 1: benign than we by the the actual implementation is a
56:07
Speaker 1: lot more benign than ever before. Why isn't that going
56:14
Speaker 1: to be the case with AI?
56:16
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think it. I think it will
56:18
Speaker 2: be the case to a certain extent, right, But the
56:24
Speaker 2: problem is where where where it becomes more dystopian is
56:29
Speaker 2: when you start to when you start to put AI
56:32
Speaker 2: into things like weapons, you know, guns, missiles, bombs, grenades,
56:37
Speaker 2: stuff like that, because it can be used and it
56:43
Speaker 2: is already being used in that degree, and you know,
56:46
Speaker 2: other things like social media not necessarily and I can't
56:49
Speaker 2: necessarily like this. This AI is kind of perfect for defense,
56:55
Speaker 2: and that's where it gets really dark and dystopian.
56:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm speaking of that. I've been wondering why that
57:03
Speaker 1: we haven't seen a reboot of war Games, you know,
57:06
Speaker 1: the whole premise of Wargames, the Matthew Broderick movie, which
57:10
Speaker 1: may have come out before you were born. So I
57:12
Speaker 1: don't have you, do you, So my apologize. I'm forty six,
57:16
Speaker 1: so okay, you're much closer, Okay then you were around
57:19
Speaker 1: when War Games. You know, how have we not rebooted
57:24
Speaker 1: that movie with the with with the with the scary
57:27
Speaker 1: times that were that was a bit far fetched at
57:30
Speaker 1: the time, right, we couldn't really imagine that there wouldn't
57:34
Speaker 1: be human elements to get in the way of that.
57:36
Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, I mean it's a good idea. Maybe I
57:41
Speaker 2: need to get on get on that, get on pitching that.
57:44
Speaker 1: There you go. Yeah, speaking of speaking of that, what
57:49
Speaker 1: is next for you? What are the next topics that
57:52
Speaker 1: that are keeping you up at night that you think
57:54
Speaker 1: deserve deserve the documentary treatment?
57:57
Speaker 2: Oh? Man, I mean, I've got a couple of things
58:01
Speaker 2: that I'm out there pitching right now. I'm pitching. I'm
58:06
Speaker 2: pitching a project that I don't I don't want to.
58:09
Speaker 2: I don't want to reveal exactly what it is because
58:13
Speaker 2: it's such I can't believe nobody has done something on it.
58:18
Speaker 2: But it's in the it's in the world of personal
58:22
Speaker 2: injury law, okay, And I think that is a world
58:27
Speaker 2: that is ripe for documentary treatment, Like we've only really
58:36
Speaker 2: seen it, I think in better call Saul. Like, I
58:38
Speaker 2: can't believe there hasn't been a documentary in that world.
58:42
Speaker 2: It's a fascinating for a couple of reasons. Fascinating people, right,
58:47
Speaker 2: These lawyers are incredible characters.
58:50
Speaker 1: Right I Yeah, Look, I'm a sucker for a good
58:54
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, uh uh these when you
58:58
Speaker 1: there's a few sort of lawyer, but Bok, Scott Turou
59:00
Speaker 1: and all those guys love to write about those lawyers,
59:04
Speaker 1: right the ones that you know, frankly are the working
59:09
Speaker 1: class lawyer. I don't know, let us to call them
59:11
Speaker 1: right where they've got to just make a living one
59:13
Speaker 1: thousand bucks at a time.
59:15
Speaker 2: You know what's really I think interesting and urgent about
59:19
Speaker 2: that topic right now too, is because our healthcare system
59:22
Speaker 2: is so incredibly broken that there are a lot of
59:26
Speaker 2: people who don't have healthcare, and so when the shit
59:32
Speaker 2: hits the fan, when something tragic happens, those are the
59:35
Speaker 2: only people they can go to. Those are their heroes,
59:39
Speaker 2: are like are they're like local heroes.
59:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
59:42
Speaker 2: And so on the one hand, they're seen as like
59:46
Speaker 2: these grifters, they're seen as these like con men. But
59:50
Speaker 2: on the other hand, in this terrible system that we're
59:56
Speaker 2: living in where healthcare is just could not be any worse,
59:59
Speaker 2: I mean it is, it is like it.
1:00:02
Speaker 1: It's well, the system, the healthcare companies, the the system
1:00:05
Speaker 1: is designed to pay the least amount of money that
1:00:08
Speaker 1: they can pay.
1:00:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so these guys come into the fray and
1:00:12
Speaker 2: are like, I'm going to bleed, these healthcare these these
1:00:15
Speaker 2: healthcare companies dry. I'm going to get you your money, right,
1:00:19
Speaker 2: And so there it's it's a great I think topic
1:00:22
Speaker 2: for documentary because.
1:00:23
Speaker 1: No, meanwhile, you know, I don't think meanwhile, a week
1:00:26
Speaker 1: doesn't go by where I don't have some company I
1:00:29
Speaker 1: have a relationship with to say, hey, we've changed our
1:00:32
Speaker 1: terms and conditions to now move to arbitration when there's
1:00:35
Speaker 1: an objection, right, which is like the amount of companies,
1:00:39
Speaker 1: And at some point I have a feeling government's got
1:00:41
Speaker 1: to step in here because the amount of companies that
1:00:44
Speaker 1: now basically don't ever want to have to face the
1:00:47
Speaker 1: judicial system and want to make consumers automatically accept the
1:00:53
Speaker 1: premise that arbitrations are only outlet if something goes wrong.
1:00:59
Speaker 1: Feels a bit coercive.
1:01:01
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean it's criminal. I think I think
1:01:04
Speaker 2: these I think these people are criminals. And so in
1:01:07
Speaker 2: that in that world, like the personal injury lawyer the bill.
1:01:11
Speaker 1: You're one hundred percent right though about the characters, You're
1:01:14
Speaker 1: one hundred percent right on the characters. I'm I'm friendly
1:01:17
Speaker 1: with John Morgan. He's a sponsor at times of this podcast.
1:01:20
Speaker 1: He's sort of there the characters in this world make
1:01:25
Speaker 1: would make a good movie, Yeah, really would.
1:01:29
Speaker 2: I've been talking to Ross Sealino of Selino and Barnes.
1:01:33
Speaker 2: He's kind of like the Lebron James of the industry.
1:01:36
Speaker 2: And then I've been talking to three guys named the
1:01:40
Speaker 2: Hammer in three different states. There's three Hammers.
1:01:44
Speaker 1: You know. If it wasn't for personal injury lawyers, there
1:01:47
Speaker 1: would be no no buyers of billboard advertising on interstates,
1:01:52
Speaker 1: right Like that's you know, you go take a road
1:01:54
Speaker 1: trip anywhere around the country, go to Eddie Eddy interstate
1:01:57
Speaker 1: in the country, and there's basic religious groups or personal
1:02:02
Speaker 1: injury lawyers that are now BUCkies that buy the billboard ads.
1:02:06
Speaker 2: Yeah. I talked to a guy called called himself the
1:02:10
Speaker 2: Anti Lawyer. He spends four hundred thousand dollars a month
1:02:14
Speaker 2: on billboards.
1:02:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think you've you've sold me. I can't
1:02:20
Speaker 1: wait to you know you we could pre book the
1:02:23
Speaker 1: podcast right now the day after you premiere that one.
1:02:26
Speaker 1: That that sounds like a lot of fun. What else
1:02:28
Speaker 1: on your radar? Anything more in the tech world.
1:02:32
Speaker 2: I think I'm going to take a little bit of
1:02:33
Speaker 2: a break from the tech world.
1:02:36
Speaker 1: How long did this take of your time. How much
1:02:39
Speaker 1: of this was this an eighteen month two years?
1:02:42
Speaker 2: Eighteen months? Yeah, it was about eighteen months. It was
1:02:45
Speaker 2: a quick turnaround because we knew that, like, there was
1:02:48
Speaker 2: urgency in getting the story out. There's a lot of
1:02:51
Speaker 2: people working on AI documentaries. I think we're pretty much
1:02:55
Speaker 2: the first to come out, and you know, it's an
1:02:59
Speaker 2: urgent that people desperately wanted, want answers to, and want
1:03:03
Speaker 2: to talk about. So so we pushed this thing out
1:03:06
Speaker 2: pretty quickly and premiered at south By Southwest and last March.
1:03:13
Speaker 1: Well, look, I think the best part of this movie
1:03:15
Speaker 1: is just this. It's supposed to spark a conversation. It's
1:03:18
Speaker 1: supposed to spark questions, and you know, if you smoke
1:03:21
Speaker 1: out the leaders to talk about it. I mean I
1:03:24
Speaker 1: feel like, did you talk with Jeffrey Hinton, right, who's
1:03:27
Speaker 1: sort of the godfather of AI, who warns people about AI.
1:03:31
Speaker 2: So I reached out to him. I did get in
1:03:33
Speaker 2: touch with him, and he's overseas taking us about it
1:03:40
Speaker 2: or working on something or other, but he did actually
1:03:42
Speaker 2: his emails online and he actually did respond to me.
1:03:47
Speaker 1: Well, it's congratulations on it, and you know, I hope
1:03:51
Speaker 1: you keep track of the type of Q and a's
1:03:53
Speaker 1: that you have. In some ways there might be I'm
1:03:56
Speaker 1: not saying build a large language model from all of
1:03:58
Speaker 1: the q and as, but the AM I would love
1:04:03
Speaker 1: to see sort of after you've done this the collection,
1:04:08
Speaker 1: because I think you will have a potential resource of
1:04:12
Speaker 1: concerns that maybe our elected leaders should be aware of.
1:04:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good point. I'm definitely filming them all.
1:04:21
Speaker 2: And you know, the question is do our elected leaders
1:04:25
Speaker 2: care enough to even want to hear it?
1:04:30
Speaker 1: You know, I will always say this about the elected leaders.
1:04:32
Speaker 1: They care when their voters.
1:04:34
Speaker 2: Care, right right on.
1:04:36
Speaker 1: So your job is to make the voters care. And look,
1:04:41
Speaker 1: you did what a good educator should do. You also
1:04:44
Speaker 1: figured out how to entertain. Right at the end of
1:04:46
Speaker 1: the day, we're all educators in this media business if
1:04:49
Speaker 1: you're doing it right, and you've got to get people
1:04:51
Speaker 1: to pay attention, and this is an entertaining film and
1:04:54
Speaker 1: you made people pay attention. Congratulations.
1:04:56
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that.
1:04:59
Speaker 1: All right, brother, And you're not a Phillies fan. We
1:05:03
Speaker 1: were talking about this pre pre tape, right am I
1:05:05
Speaker 1: am I supposed to take away that you are a
1:05:07
Speaker 1: Phillies fan or not a Phillies fan, not.
1:05:09
Speaker 2: A Phillies fan, a Dodgers fan. But I'm a collector
1:05:13
Speaker 2: of vintage jerseys, and uh, I figured somebody someone watching
1:05:18
Speaker 2: this podcast will appreciate the the Mike, the Michael Jack
1:05:21
Speaker 2: Schmidt vintage Phillies jersey.
1:05:23
Speaker 1: It's the best of all the all uniforms of the Phillies.
1:05:26
Speaker 1: That when they're doing the powder blue. It's funny how
1:05:29
Speaker 1: much the powder blue, right, it's the best of the
1:05:31
Speaker 1: Chargers uniforms. It's the best. We we that powder blue
1:05:35
Speaker 1: just does well on TV. Dodgers, evil Empire, or just
1:05:39
Speaker 1: smarter than everybody else.
1:05:40
Speaker 2: Oh, definitely smarter than everybody else. I mean there's there's
1:05:44
Speaker 2: also you know, I mean, look, Otani is greatest of
1:05:49
Speaker 2: all time. Sorry, like it's just it's Otani. Look it is.
1:05:56
Speaker 1: It's kind of boring. We don't even get to have
1:05:57
Speaker 1: a debate. It's not even close. Like it's like, oh yeah,
1:06:01
Speaker 1: and okay, next question. Like, you know, the beauty of
1:06:06
Speaker 1: sports is supposed to disagree, and we can't disagree right
1:06:08
Speaker 1: now in baseball, yeah.
1:06:10
Speaker 2: I mean all the evil Empire, money stuff, politics, you know,
1:06:15
Speaker 2: inner baseball politics, none of that. Take that all out
1:06:19
Speaker 2: of the conversation. It's just we have otani. Sorry, like that's.
1:06:23
Speaker 1: It, right, and everything else falls into place. Adam, good
1:06:27
Speaker 1: luck on the tour, be safe out there, and like
1:06:30
Speaker 1: I said, I hope document all your questions because I
1:06:33
Speaker 1: think there's going to be that's going to be a
1:06:35
Speaker 1: rich resource. If you can figure out how to put
1:06:37
Speaker 1: it to.
1:06:38
Speaker 2: Use, we'll do. Thank you all right, my friend appreciate it.