Latest / UK Column Radio / We Need Empathy in the Information War | Jerm Warfare

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We Need Empathy in the Information War | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

0:30
Speaker 1: My name is Jim. This is Germ Warfare, the Battle
0:33
Speaker 1: of ideas. So I was just telling you before I
0:36
Speaker 1: hit the record button. I was having breakfast with my
0:39
Speaker 1: wife and son, and I'm bringing this up because he
0:44
Speaker 1: was having Kito Jenny breakfast, sausage and egg and so on.
0:49
Speaker 1: And I love talking about diet and nutrition. Mike. I
0:52
Speaker 1: think you and I chatted about this a few times
0:54
Speaker 1: in the past. I'm a very very big fan of
0:56
Speaker 1: waking up, you know, on the right side of the
0:58
Speaker 1: bed with enough steep, you know, being able to think clearly,
1:01
Speaker 1: and obviously diet plays a huge role in that. And
1:06
Speaker 1: I was just sitting there with them, and I was thinking.
1:09
Speaker 1: One of the things that the independent space I think
1:12
Speaker 1: lacks a lot is exactly this kind of dialogue. A
1:15
Speaker 1: lot of it is just very centered around certain topics,
1:18
Speaker 1: and that's okay, but I would love personally to see
1:22
Speaker 1: a much bigger variety of these sorts of talking points
1:27
Speaker 1: that enhance not just the world around us, but our
1:31
Speaker 1: personal lives. I was accused recently of what's what's the
1:35
Speaker 1: phrase that was used by somebody flooding the zone. I
1:38
Speaker 1: covered too many topics, but that's for me. What makes
1:43
Speaker 1: the puzzle easier to understand. You know, when you put
1:47
Speaker 1: when you have lots and lots of different pieces and
1:48
Speaker 1: you start putting them all together and you start realizing
1:51
Speaker 1: that they're actually they're not flooding the zone. These these
1:54
Speaker 1: all of these things matter in their own way. I mean,
1:57
Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll agree with that, right.
1:59
Speaker 2: Well, I mean with my first comment on that would be, uh,
2:02
Speaker 2: people don't have to watch every single episode of durerm Warfare.
2:05
Speaker 2: I mean, I can understand why they would want to,
2:07
Speaker 2: but they don't have to. So if they feel like
2:09
Speaker 2: the zone's being flooded, you know, turn it off for
2:11
Speaker 2: a couple of days and come back to a topic
2:13
Speaker 2: that But I'm just going to challenge you a little.
2:16
Speaker 2: So you're claiming that this was a ketogenic, ketogenic breakfast,
2:20
Speaker 2: and then you mentioned the word sausage. Now I'm going
2:22
Speaker 2: to suggest that depending on sage, this could be less information.
2:29
Speaker 2: But anyway, look, look on the topic of diet and
2:33
Speaker 2: so on. The one thing that I have noticed, particularly
2:37
Speaker 2: when we start talking keto versus whatever other particular diet
2:43
Speaker 2: people might be thinking about, is that that people get
2:46
Speaker 2: very very ideological about it. They get very bought into
2:51
Speaker 2: one thing is the only way, and therefore it becomes
2:55
Speaker 2: very difficult to get any kind of objective truth on
3:00
Speaker 2: this kind of topic. And so you know, I don't
3:06
Speaker 2: know how that gets dealt with. But but what I
3:08
Speaker 2: find about protectly diet is that that the people that
3:13
Speaker 2: are promoting a particular type of diet, well, that may
3:17
Speaker 2: have worked for them. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's
3:20
Speaker 2: going to work for everybody, but of course they presented
3:23
Speaker 2: as if it will work for everybody. And so that's
3:25
Speaker 2: where we need to just be a little bit careful. Perhaps.
3:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean when I say ketogenic, I don't mean
3:30
Speaker 1: that from an ideological I just simply am describing the
3:33
Speaker 1: kind of food that that that that I'm talking about,
3:36
Speaker 1: which is generally low carbohydrate. So in other its, you know,
3:39
Speaker 1: egg and sausage would be obviously high protein, high fat.
3:43
Speaker 1: But you're quite right, I mean, what's what goes in
3:45
Speaker 1: the sausage does matter, and of course how it's cooked, yes,
3:51
Speaker 1: but that's not what we're discussing. I'm simply talking talking
3:54
Speaker 1: about the the overarching point of of of of starting
3:58
Speaker 1: off the week with something fam orientated and something that's
4:02
Speaker 1: genuinely nutritious and I think healthy, and I I really
4:06
Speaker 1: wish that more more people in my extended circles also
4:11
Speaker 1: thought about these things and didn't only wake up thinking
4:14
Speaker 1: about Gaza. I don't mean that in a derogatory way,
4:17
Speaker 1: or I'm not trying to minimize it, but I'm saying
4:19
Speaker 1: that there are many many facets to to the world
4:24
Speaker 1: around us. It's a very big place, and there are
4:27
Speaker 1: a lot of puzzle pieces, and you can't fight battles
4:31
Speaker 1: if you're you know, tired, or if you are overweight,
4:34
Speaker 1: or you diabetic cordever. You know, you've got to also
4:36
Speaker 1: get some of those basics, right.
4:39
Speaker 2: I think this this, this comes back to to a
4:42
Speaker 2: conversation we've had many times, and that is what is
4:44
Speaker 2: what is what is it to resist? What is resistance?
4:47
Speaker 2: And it is a multifaceted thing. It is finding every
4:53
Speaker 2: opportunity And and you know I've mentioned before that you know,
4:58
Speaker 2: whenever the lockdown period was was on, one act of
5:03
Speaker 2: resistance was to get out of the house and get
5:07
Speaker 2: away from the computer screen and go for a walk.
5:09
Speaker 2: And and and I've said before I welcome that returning
5:14
Speaker 2: because it was a motivation that perhaps you know, there
5:18
Speaker 2: are other priorities again, that that seemed to push that
5:22
Speaker 2: sort of more looking after yourself aspect of life back
5:30
Speaker 2: into the background again, and that that really we shouldn't
5:33
Speaker 2: be allowing that to happen.
5:35
Speaker 1: I mean, that's exactly right. We started off with the
5:39
Speaker 1: walk because we stay on a farm. I think Charles,
5:41
Speaker 1: you also stay on some sort of farm. I haven't
5:43
Speaker 1: been to your place. I don't know what the cloud is,
5:45
Speaker 1: but when it's early morning and it's cold, it's very
5:50
Speaker 1: very what's the word, it revitalizes you, like immediately that christness.
5:56
Speaker 1: You know, it's just it's just there's something very special
5:58
Speaker 1: about that which I don't think you do you get
6:00
Speaker 1: in the city center.
6:05
Speaker 3: Well, I suppose it depends where in the city center.
6:09
Speaker 3: I mean I think London's a good example. London has
6:13
Speaker 3: huge parks which are actually really pretty wild. Certainly if
6:19
Speaker 3: you go. I was just to take great pleasure of
6:21
Speaker 3: walking back through Hyde Park, Kenston Gardens sort of in
6:26
Speaker 3: the middle of the night, and you'd always see fox,
6:30
Speaker 3: you'd see ourls, you'd see all sorts of wildlife, really fascinating.
6:35
Speaker 3: So I think you can experience and actually again London,
6:37
Speaker 3: you know, swimming in a certain time it's pretty cold,
6:41
Speaker 3: so all of this stuff can be done. Plymouth again
6:44
Speaker 3: a good, great example, swimming in the sea, absolute joy,
6:48
Speaker 3: and people do do it, but not very many. And
6:53
Speaker 3: I think there's always something so yeah, it's easy to say, oh,
6:57
Speaker 3: well I can't do it because I'm not in the countryside.
6:59
Speaker 3: I don't think that's really true. I think every city
7:02
Speaker 3: I've ever lived in, okay it's not that many, but
7:05
Speaker 3: but enough to know that there's always a there is
7:07
Speaker 3: always a way that you can experience that. But now
7:10
Speaker 3: I think the cold, specifically the early morning air bath
7:15
Speaker 3: as it's correctly referred to, which is when you spend
7:18
Speaker 3: some time outdoors wearing either nothing at all or just
7:22
Speaker 3: a pair of shorts. And I think that is a
7:27
Speaker 3: very very good thing to do every day of the year,
7:30
Speaker 3: especially when it's you.
7:31
Speaker 1: Got outside naked.
7:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, yeah, come on, I mean, okay, I'm sorry,
7:37
Speaker 3: I'm not I'm now now not in the city context.
7:43
Speaker 1: I was still thinking about the box since Interra London.
7:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, well, I mean people do do that, but
7:50
Speaker 3: it's it's frowned upon a bit more these days than
7:52
Speaker 3: perhaps it was. Yeah, the exposing yourself to cold again Okay,
7:57
Speaker 3: this is the what works for you, and I would
8:01
Speaker 3: not in any way try to impress this upon anyone
8:05
Speaker 3: who doesn't think that it works for them in the
8:07
Speaker 3: same way that the diet. It's got to work for you.
8:10
Speaker 3: But in my experience and in the people that do
8:15
Speaker 3: similar things, experience cold experienced cold, cold air, cold water
8:22
Speaker 3: has enormous benefit. But yeah, so, but I think also
8:27
Speaker 3: mostly at the start of the day, just the psychological
8:31
Speaker 3: benefit of just having that interface with the environment, with
8:38
Speaker 3: the elements. It's just it's exhilarating. So yeah, that's my
8:43
Speaker 3: that's my morning start the day.
8:46
Speaker 1: I mean, someone listening to this might go, well, this
8:48
Speaker 1: is such a shallow conversation, but that's exactly the point
8:51
Speaker 1: I'm trying to make that it's not. You know, when
8:55
Speaker 1: we talk about resistance, Mike, we are talking about going
9:01
Speaker 1: back to the things that are wholesome, that are good,
9:04
Speaker 1: the things that are not part of all these sort
9:08
Speaker 1: of poly wars. The family, I mean, so we had
9:11
Speaker 1: friends over on Saturday and we were so his wife
9:15
Speaker 1: is pregnant, like my wife is due around the same time,
9:19
Speaker 1: and he's exhausted. He's absolutely exhausted, and his child hasn't
9:25
Speaker 1: even been born yet, and and we were just chatting
9:28
Speaker 1: about how to how to break that cycle of exhaustion.
9:32
Speaker 1: And when you are like that, you become fairly useless.
9:36
Speaker 1: You don't become highly functional. And then how can you
9:41
Speaker 1: expect a soldier on the front line to fight any
9:45
Speaker 1: war if he's exhausted, you know what I mean. It's
9:49
Speaker 1: always comes back to you being sort of fully charged
9:56
Speaker 1: before you can take on anything else. And I find
9:59
Speaker 1: that so many people get so distracted by so many things,
10:01
Speaker 1: and I think that's by design, as it's like the
10:03
Speaker 1: distraction economy.
10:06
Speaker 2: But this issue of feeling is exhausted all the time
10:10
Speaker 2: is an absolutely real thing. And you know, I hear
10:15
Speaker 2: friends and family talking about their work colleagues just constantly
10:18
Speaker 2: being exhausted, or you know, they're constantly off on the
10:23
Speaker 2: sick or whatever it happens to be. This is this
10:25
Speaker 2: is a combination of you know, people's lifestyles, diets, but
10:31
Speaker 2: it's also the fact that they are generally finding themselves
10:35
Speaker 2: in employment which offers them absolutely nothing in terms of
10:39
Speaker 2: motivation to get up in the morning or any kind
10:42
Speaker 2: of real sort of sense of achievement or sense of
10:46
Speaker 2: actually doing something useful for society or for themselves. And inevitably,
10:53
Speaker 2: these days, people are being underpaid for what they're doing,
10:56
Speaker 2: and so so as a result, the motivation isn't there. People.
11:02
Speaker 2: But you know this, this might seem really anecdotal and
11:06
Speaker 2: actually quite silly in some ways, but but my observation
11:10
Speaker 2: of life is that you know, if if you need
11:14
Speaker 2: the energy for a particular task, the energy will appear.
11:18
Speaker 2: It's it's it's not it's a lot of it's psychological
11:21
Speaker 2: and and and actually having the motivation to do the
11:24
Speaker 2: thing that you're intending to do. And if you're getting
11:26
Speaker 2: up in the morning and the only thing you're you're
11:29
Speaker 2: dying for is time to pass till the Friday night
11:31
Speaker 2: so you can go and have another six pints of beer,
11:34
Speaker 2: then what's the point of living? And and this is
11:37
Speaker 2: the position that lots and lots of people are finding
11:39
Speaker 2: themselves in and and as a result, they are just
11:44
Speaker 2: constantly feeling exhausted and and.
11:48
Speaker 1: Well exactly, I mean, so some of the guests that
11:51
Speaker 1: I've had on my show are remarkably smart. You know,
11:55
Speaker 1: I've got huge amounts of knowledge. And then I see
11:58
Speaker 1: some of the comments that I get via email or whatever,
12:01
Speaker 1: or in my telegram channel or UK column X forums
12:05
Speaker 1: or whatever, okay, or the comment section.
12:07
Speaker 2: And.
12:09
Speaker 1: There are huge risks of becoming blackboard when you focus
12:15
Speaker 1: only on some of these these macro topics, which is
12:18
Speaker 1: why I like to talk about these things that are
12:20
Speaker 1: actually things that we can change, because then it gives
12:23
Speaker 1: you motivation and it's uplifting again, because when you only
12:26
Speaker 1: focus on the big stuff that you don't have much
12:29
Speaker 1: influence over, you very very quickly can can fall into
12:32
Speaker 1: into that cycle of depression and nihilism and not wanting
12:36
Speaker 1: to do anything because what's the point. And and I
12:41
Speaker 1: find that that, ironically, I find that quite depressing because
12:45
Speaker 1: then then you think, oh, come on, really, you know,
12:48
Speaker 1: we go through all this effort to try and figure
12:50
Speaker 1: things out, to try and resist, and then you you
12:54
Speaker 1: become defeatist and it's exactly what you What you said
12:58
Speaker 1: there is also very psychological.
13:03
Speaker 3: I think we need to be careful not to be
13:05
Speaker 3: too unfair or hard upon people that do find themselves there,
13:10
Speaker 3: because I think for a lot of people it's not
13:12
Speaker 3: it's not deliberate. And I think we are exactly like
13:17
Speaker 3: with diet, with sleep patterns, with lifestyle, we are we
13:20
Speaker 3: are as a species I think very much out of
13:23
Speaker 3: kilter with our senses. We don't we don't really know
13:27
Speaker 3: what it is we need when we need it, which
13:29
Speaker 3: is why people do get in terrible trouble with particularly diet.
13:35
Speaker 3: But I think what we shouldn't understate is the psychological effect,
13:42
Speaker 3: or rather the stress that is manifested by the psychological
13:47
Speaker 3: pressure of considering that there are elements of your life
13:52
Speaker 3: that are not as you would like them, and that that.
13:56
Speaker 2: Will take its toll.
13:57
Speaker 3: So this going back to the idea of exhaustion that
14:01
Speaker 3: can be that that can be to do with much
14:05
Speaker 3: more than just say a poor diet or not making
14:10
Speaker 3: great choices around sleep. That there could be a load
14:13
Speaker 3: of other factors. And I think for people who have
14:16
Speaker 3: got into something of a downward spiral by considering that
14:20
Speaker 3: the forces that they can't control, so essentially the sort
14:26
Speaker 3: of let's say, the state and the wider reaching tentacles
14:32
Speaker 3: and all that stuff. If you perceive that you can't
14:35
Speaker 3: control that, there's a feeling of helplessness and that that
14:38
Speaker 3: then can lead into a bit of a diamond spar
14:41
Speaker 3: But I think what in learning about that. I think
14:44
Speaker 3: a lot of people think that they are consciously evaluating
14:48
Speaker 3: that against their own life, against their consciousness. But I
14:53
Speaker 3: don't believe that's really the case. I think there's a
14:55
Speaker 3: lot going on in the subconscious and there is a
14:59
Speaker 3: there is a in which the psychological stress takes over,
15:03
Speaker 3: and that I think can be a massive I have
15:07
Speaker 3: a sort of considerable undoing effect, and to get yourself
15:10
Speaker 3: buck up out of that it is difficult, but to
15:13
Speaker 3: go back to your breakfast. And I think what Mike
15:16
Speaker 3: is has been driving out which we which we have
15:19
Speaker 3: not actually articulated, is the rusk content in a sausage.
15:24
Speaker 3: And of course it's not it's not necessary. So and
15:29
Speaker 3: I would hope in South Africa you could, you really
15:32
Speaker 3: should be making sausages that have all the right things
15:34
Speaker 3: in them. But the point is it can be a
15:36
Speaker 3: very very simple thing to undo. So so you make
15:38
Speaker 3: one positive step within the orbit that you do control.
15:44
Speaker 3: So it is up to you what you have for breakfast.
15:47
Speaker 3: For most people, therefore, you make that choice, and that
15:51
Speaker 3: produces the upward spiral because you're you're regaining control. Then
15:57
Speaker 3: you begin to see the benefits of the choices you've made,
16:00
Speaker 3: and so on and so forth. So it is the
16:02
Speaker 3: simple things that lead to profound changes. But as I say,
16:05
Speaker 3: I think the thing that we mustn't underestimate or belittle
16:10
Speaker 3: is the psychological stress of finding yourself in this position,
16:13
Speaker 3: especially if you're to an extent isolated, either because you're
16:17
Speaker 3: isolated in your work because your job is doing what
16:21
Speaker 3: it does in the way that might describes, or because
16:24
Speaker 3: you have what appear to be ideological differences about the
16:27
Speaker 3: world with those closely around you, and that can be really,
16:31
Speaker 3: really problematic. So if that is combined with the other factors,
16:37
Speaker 3: that's really tricky.
16:40
Speaker 1: Well, I mean the point that you make as well
16:41
Speaker 1: made Peterbriggan during the COVID years. I came onto my
16:45
Speaker 1: show a few times and he was making the point,
16:48
Speaker 1: I mean, anybody doesn't know his history is probably one
16:52
Speaker 1: of the most prolific I think psychiatrists in US history.
16:57
Speaker 1: And he said a number of times that we need
17:00
Speaker 1: to show a sense of sympathy or understanding of people
17:06
Speaker 1: who were getting themselves caught up in, you know, cycles
17:09
Speaker 1: of anxiety and depression because of all these things that
17:13
Speaker 1: have been going on, rather than getting angry and frustrated.
17:17
Speaker 1: But the problem is the problem is you do get
17:19
Speaker 1: angry and frustrated when you when you feel like you're
17:22
Speaker 1: repeating yourself, but that in itself is arrogant also, so
17:25
Speaker 1: it's it's a horrible kind of balancing act because I
17:30
Speaker 1: do get frustrated a lot because you feel like you're
17:34
Speaker 1: saying the same thing for year on year on year,
17:38
Speaker 1: and and some people just go nah, and what is
17:42
Speaker 1: what is the reason for that? You know?
17:44
Speaker 2: Why?
17:45
Speaker 1: Why are they not willing to reconsider their position? And
17:52
Speaker 1: that the problem there is that it's a cycle of
17:54
Speaker 1: of hubris because it makes me come off as if
17:58
Speaker 1: I'm superior in my journey, and of course that's not
18:03
Speaker 1: true because we all have you know, we've all got
18:06
Speaker 1: a journey in front of us.
18:08
Speaker 2: I don't really know why I'm going with it.
18:09
Speaker 3: I think, well, I'll help you out then, because I
18:12
Speaker 3: think that is I think that is a sign of
18:18
Speaker 3: call it what you will, vulnerability and lack of confidence, weakness.
18:24
Speaker 3: When you're in a position of strength, either physically or mentally,
18:28
Speaker 3: you are absolutely prepared to accept anything in front of you.
18:33
Speaker 3: You can then decide whether or not you want to
18:35
Speaker 3: take it. And you know the physical thing would be
18:37
Speaker 3: right when you look up a tree or a rock
18:40
Speaker 3: face or whatever, and you think that you can climb it,
18:43
Speaker 3: but you then decide, well, is that going to be
18:45
Speaker 3: the best thing to climb? Or do I go round
18:47
Speaker 3: or whatever?
18:47
Speaker 2: It is.
18:48
Speaker 3: So, but you're in a position of physical strength and
18:51
Speaker 3: you can decide to do that. And I think mentally again,
18:54
Speaker 3: if you're in that place mentally where you are confident,
18:58
Speaker 3: you are sure of yourself, then it's not threatening to
19:01
Speaker 3: hear somebody else's point of view and you can take
19:04
Speaker 3: it and you can evaluate it on its own merits.
19:06
Speaker 3: You can have a sensible discussion with that person and
19:08
Speaker 3: you can either decide that yes, it has merit and
19:12
Speaker 3: you will add it to your learning or to your knowledge,
19:17
Speaker 3: or you will debate it and you can reject it.
19:21
Speaker 3: But I think when you're not in that position of
19:26
Speaker 3: mental stability and feeling that you are in control, then
19:33
Speaker 3: it is very very damaging or potentially damaging to hear
19:38
Speaker 3: anything that might threaten you. That's the way I perceive it,
19:42
Speaker 3: because it looks like somebody else is trying to insert
19:47
Speaker 3: an element of control over your life, which is not
19:51
Speaker 3: you know, certainly shouldn't be what anyone else tries to do.
19:53
Speaker 3: If you do, if you do think that bringing something
19:56
Speaker 3: to somebody's attention is worthwhile, or it shouldn't be done
20:01
Speaker 3: in a sort of you know, you have to know
20:04
Speaker 3: and do this. It's well, look, this information might help you.
20:09
Speaker 3: I mean, I that's my reading on it, and that's
20:12
Speaker 3: I think that's borne out by experience. The people that
20:14
Speaker 3: react badly to stuff are generally not in a position
20:20
Speaker 3: of or of sufficient control over their own lives, I think.
20:27
Speaker 2: But from just to add to that, jerm, you know,
20:30
Speaker 2: if you're feeling frustration about some of the responses that
20:35
Speaker 2: you're getting, well you shouldn't be, because first of all,
20:39
Speaker 2: you know, it's not it's not any of our jobs
20:42
Speaker 2: to tell people what to think. We can only present
20:46
Speaker 2: the information and that's to other people to choose what
20:51
Speaker 2: to decide about that. But as well as that, it's
20:54
Speaker 2: easy to be convinced that that people are responding in
20:59
Speaker 2: a particular way based on a set of comments might
21:02
Speaker 2: appear under a video or or an article. But those
21:09
Speaker 2: comments are created by the people that are most motivated
21:14
Speaker 2: to comment, and so they're not necessarily the view of
21:17
Speaker 2: the majority of people that have watched the watched the thing.
21:21
Speaker 2: And also or bots, well that's possible too, but even
21:26
Speaker 2: if we take it on face value and say that
21:28
Speaker 2: this is this is what people are thinking, you know
21:31
Speaker 2: that that's those those opinions are are equally valid. You know,
21:37
Speaker 2: I might not agree with with all of them or
21:40
Speaker 2: any of them, but but those are those are what
21:42
Speaker 2: people think. But you know, that doesn't mean that we
21:45
Speaker 2: have to we have to immediately assume that that the
21:50
Speaker 2: the interview or whatever fell on completely deaf ears or
21:54
Speaker 2: was completely rejected. Most the vast majority of people, you know,
21:58
Speaker 2: well over ninety percent of people don't aren't interested in commenting,
22:03
Speaker 2: and just don't comment at all.
22:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not really talking about videos as such that
22:07
Speaker 1: I think. I'm just talking about, you know, discourse in general.
22:10
Speaker 1: Having said that, the the upshot is that, I mean,
22:15
Speaker 1: his friend of mine is a doctor and we were
22:18
Speaker 1: chatting about vaccines. Now he's very much still in the establishment,
22:24
Speaker 1: and he actually said to me, well, he's been thinking
22:27
Speaker 1: about some of these these these talking points and what
22:31
Speaker 1: he had studied and in his own you know, clinical work,
22:36
Speaker 1: he sees inconsistencies that don't make sense to him, and
22:40
Speaker 1: it's forcing him to to to to look into some
22:43
Speaker 1: of these matters just on a personal basis. But of
22:46
Speaker 1: course he has to be careful because when you do that,
22:48
Speaker 1: you you run the risk of being pulled in front
22:51
Speaker 1: of the medical board kind of thing. But it's great
22:55
Speaker 1: to see that also, and and and that came about
22:58
Speaker 1: from his from within himself. Nobody forced him to, you know,
23:02
Speaker 1: to to rethink things or to or to reconsider.
23:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's your key point right there, because that's the
23:08
Speaker 2: only way it can ever happen. That you can't. You
23:12
Speaker 2: cannot bludgeon people over the head with information and say
23:15
Speaker 2: you will believe this. Now, that's that's not how it works.
23:17
Speaker 2: It only ever comes as somebody welcoming that information in
23:22
Speaker 2: because they're asking questions if something's happened to them in
23:25
Speaker 2: their own lives, so that has caused them to ask
23:27
Speaker 2: questions or diet what they've been told up to that point.
23:30
Speaker 2: And at that point then they're they're they're you know,
23:34
Speaker 2: open to the possibility that somebody else might have a
23:37
Speaker 2: perspective worth listening to. So you know, this, this is
23:42
Speaker 2: a misunderstanding that that many of us hold that we can,
23:46
Speaker 2: that we can and and you know, all through the
23:49
Speaker 2: COVID years when people were out there trying to convince
23:54
Speaker 2: people of why they shouldn't be standing on the street
23:57
Speaker 2: every Thursday evening at seven thirty banging pot together. There
24:02
Speaker 2: was naturally trying to tell people that that that they
24:07
Speaker 2: are wrong and that the you're right, that's that's never
24:10
Speaker 2: gonna that's never going to fly with anybody. People have
24:14
Speaker 2: to be open to to to the information. And so,
24:19
Speaker 2: you know, we shouldn't be worrying about rejected. You know,
24:23
Speaker 2: if something that we've said is being rejected by someone,
24:26
Speaker 2: which just move on to the next person and see
24:28
Speaker 2: whether they're ready to have a conversation about it or not.
24:32
Speaker 1: Well, another example of that is we took our little
24:35
Speaker 1: boy to the pediatrician a week ago for the for
24:38
Speaker 1: the very first time. And the reason why we did
24:40
Speaker 1: that is because he he fell on his face off
24:44
Speaker 1: the off the side of the couch and we've got
24:45
Speaker 1: a concrete floor and so he hit himself sort of
24:50
Speaker 1: face first, and so he ended up with this little
24:51
Speaker 1: lump on his on his on his lip and it's fine,
24:56
Speaker 1: but it hasn't gone away because he keeps biting it
24:59
Speaker 1: and playing with it, so it stays there. But it's
25:02
Speaker 1: it's it's you know, it's completely what's the word, there's
25:08
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with it. It's just a lump on his
25:10
Speaker 1: lip that's in the way. So we took him to
25:12
Speaker 1: the petrition to ask if we should have it removed
25:16
Speaker 1: or if it will go away naturally because it's been
25:17
Speaker 1: there for months. And so he said, okay, hold on,
25:20
Speaker 1: before we do that, let me go through all my checks.
25:23
Speaker 1: And he did all do these checks that he would
25:25
Speaker 1: normally do on kids, and he said, so, has he
25:28
Speaker 1: had any antibotics. No, he hasn't any antibiotics. Vaccines, No,
25:33
Speaker 1: no vaccines. And the more he went through these checks,
25:37
Speaker 1: the more surprised he became. He said, that your kid
25:39
Speaker 1: is unbelievably healthy. I can't believe he's never been to
25:42
Speaker 1: a doctor at antibiotics or anything. And the only issue
25:46
Speaker 1: is this little thing on his lip and that's that.
25:48
Speaker 1: And he said, he says, I'm really really impressed.
25:52
Speaker 2: Now.
25:52
Speaker 1: That for me is that's a great story because that
25:57
Speaker 1: shows that that the puzzle pieces that I've been putting
26:01
Speaker 1: together and my wife been putting together are fitting and
26:05
Speaker 1: and so that they now suggests to me that that
26:08
Speaker 1: that that that I'm on the right path and so
26:10
Speaker 1: is my wife, you know what I mean, And and
26:13
Speaker 1: that that there is the upshot. That's the opposite now
26:16
Speaker 1: to the frustrations that I get from talking to other people.
26:21
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean that that is obviously you know that
26:24
Speaker 3: that's very positive in that god. I mean, the other
26:26
Speaker 3: thing that it does demonstrate is how somebody, a pediatrician
26:31
Speaker 3: who I'm from, the way you describe, would you say
26:34
Speaker 3: it was him or her? Him?
26:37
Speaker 1: Him, him, and you're very much in the system.
26:39
Speaker 3: Okay, but but you know, it sounds like he's a
26:42
Speaker 3: nice bloke, he's trying to do the right thing, and
26:44
Speaker 3: and he has he's he's led a life and a
26:47
Speaker 3: professional career that tells him. That reinforces the belief system
26:52
Speaker 3: that in order to be healthy you need to have this,
26:55
Speaker 3: that and the other. And you know, if you get ill,
26:57
Speaker 3: you have antibiotics and they go and so just it
27:02
Speaker 3: shows how incredibly ingrained that is, to the point where
27:07
Speaker 3: he obviously sincerely believes that if you don't have that,
27:10
Speaker 3: if you're not exposed to pharmaceutical products, especially vaccines, that
27:15
Speaker 3: it would follow that your health would actually deteriorate. You know,
27:20
Speaker 3: it's incredible that people can believe that when for as
27:25
Speaker 3: long as creatures have been around until very recently, that
27:30
Speaker 3: was the only way that people could live. So it
27:33
Speaker 3: is remarkable. And again that's not just to go back
27:39
Speaker 3: to what we were talking about as to whether knowledge
27:42
Speaker 3: can in a way be sort of foisted upon you
27:44
Speaker 3: or forced upon you. You know, this is what is
27:47
Speaker 3: so terribly clever about the mainstream paradigm because the way
27:51
Speaker 3: that everything is presented is it's like a sort of
27:57
Speaker 3: high fence. It's already there in order that you can't
28:02
Speaker 3: look beyond and and you think of you, I mean,
28:06
Speaker 3: what's that? The obvious phrase is Russia's full scale what
28:10
Speaker 3: is it? Dearly full scale.
28:12
Speaker 2: Leading skill in vision? If you create a full.
28:14
Speaker 3: Scale invasion of you, Yeah, Sorr, I get confused, but
28:17
Speaker 3: but but that's it. So anyone reading anything about Russia
28:22
Speaker 3: or Ukraine gets whacked in the face with that. And
28:25
Speaker 3: it's not that it's but it's it's sort of it's
28:28
Speaker 3: passive because you're you know, you're reading it, but it
28:31
Speaker 3: but it absolutely creates that fence that means, right, well,
28:35
Speaker 3: you're never going to consider now that the Russia might
28:40
Speaker 3: not necessarily be x Y and Z. Yeah, anyway, fascinating,
28:44
Speaker 3: interesting exchange, but positive and you know, let's let's let's
28:48
Speaker 3: hope that he would have gone away and had a
28:50
Speaker 3: bit of think.
28:51
Speaker 1: But that's what we spoke about on the car after leaving.
28:56
Speaker 1: Why was he surprised? You know, and and and that's
29:00
Speaker 1: that's where that frustration can creep and you're thinking, oh,
29:02
Speaker 1: my goodness, all right.
29:06
Speaker 2: But you see, you're you know, you're you're fortunate that
29:09
Speaker 2: that he is what he is. Because when my kids
29:12
Speaker 2: were young, we were living in France, I don't know
29:16
Speaker 2: what age, they were three four something like that, and
29:19
Speaker 2: they both got measles and boy did we get a
29:24
Speaker 2: serious dressing down by the doctor for not having them vaccine.
29:28
Speaker 2: It that I mean, we we uh you know, and
29:30
Speaker 2: and another circumstances, uh, you know, I can see that
29:34
Speaker 2: some people would be uh, you know, would be getting
29:38
Speaker 2: referred to social services, you know, in extreme circus circumstances
29:43
Speaker 2: for not having their children vaccinated. And so you know,
29:47
Speaker 2: it's it's very much a lottery what kind of response
29:49
Speaker 2: you get to these types of issues.
29:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, I'm sorry. Just just just the vaccine logic,
29:58
Speaker 3: the sort of the the wrathful indignation of vaccine logic
30:03
Speaker 3: is absolutely mind blowing, which is that if if you've
30:08
Speaker 3: had if you've had a vaccination against supposedly against a
30:13
Speaker 3: particular thing, and then you get that particular thing. It's
30:17
Speaker 3: fine because you've had the vaccination, so everyone says, oh,
30:22
Speaker 3: that's fine. Then, but if you have not had the
30:24
Speaker 3: vaccination and you get the thing, apparently you get the thing,
30:28
Speaker 3: which is basically the result is the same. You've got
30:31
Speaker 3: you know, you get measles or you get whatever it is,
30:33
Speaker 3: and of course in recent times you get the COVID.
30:37
Speaker 3: It's amazing people have this. You know, there's the path
30:41
Speaker 3: forks in the mind. Either you're absolutely furious with the
30:44
Speaker 3: person because they're ill and they didn't have a vaccine,
30:48
Speaker 3: or you have heartfelt sympathy because they're ill and they
30:52
Speaker 3: did have the vaccine. It is so it's so remarkable
30:56
Speaker 3: that people can think like that.
31:00
Speaker 2: But again, what any point is asked whether the vaccine
31:02
Speaker 2: worked or not. Yeah, exactly, yes, yes, exactly.
31:07
Speaker 1: But also this brings me back to why I enjoy
31:09
Speaker 1: what I do, and this is why UK column exists.
31:13
Speaker 1: It's to challenge some of the propaganda and to try
31:17
Speaker 1: and figure out, you know, actually what is true, regardless
31:22
Speaker 1: of ideology. Because the same doctor friend I was chatting
31:24
Speaker 1: to was saying, we were talking about vaccines because these
31:29
Speaker 1: kids on the way, and and and he said, he said,
31:34
Speaker 1: he said to me, but you know the purpose of
31:37
Speaker 1: a vaccine is actually just to reduce the severity of
31:42
Speaker 1: the illness. And I my stomach dropped, because that is
31:47
Speaker 1: exactly what propaganda does. Firstly, that wasn't the definition of
31:52
Speaker 1: a vaccine. It changed. It used to be about immunity.
31:56
Speaker 1: Now it's about severity. And and that just is how
32:00
Speaker 1: the how the system manufactures. Unfortunately, you know, the the
32:06
Speaker 1: very well meaning doctors and scientists, et cetera. But it's
32:10
Speaker 1: so frustrating because you you now have to now argue
32:13
Speaker 1: and now you have to now challenge him on that point.
32:16
Speaker 1: Now it's not about severity because they've changed the definition.
32:19
Speaker 1: It's so now you get a vaccine so that you
32:22
Speaker 1: don't get a six because so my response was okay,
32:24
Speaker 1: but hold on, wouldn't wouldn't being healthy actually reduce severity
32:30
Speaker 1: of the disease? He says, Well, that's exactly right, he says,
32:33
Speaker 1: And and that's a good point. So it comes all
32:37
Speaker 1: the way back to health and diet before before worrying
32:41
Speaker 1: about injecting you know, your child in the arm.
32:47
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's the basis of terrain, isn't it that
32:49
Speaker 2: that's the whole point? And uh, that's what one of
32:52
Speaker 2: the reasons is a little frustrating that there's just quite
32:55
Speaker 2: the fight between the vaccine no vaccine cried because because
32:59
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, what the evidence absolutely
33:02
Speaker 2: shows is that when you improve terrain, not just externally
33:08
Speaker 2: but internally as well, the outcomes are massively better. And
33:13
Speaker 2: then both sides of that argument can possibly agree that
33:18
Speaker 2: vaccination is not necessary.
33:20
Speaker 1: But I mean, that's that's why I get frustrated because
33:22
Speaker 1: I had a discussion last week with somebody else and
33:24
Speaker 1: they were talking about, but you know, vaccine is what
33:28
Speaker 1: you really want to give your child, and I said,
33:30
Speaker 1: but hold on, at what point are we first going
33:32
Speaker 1: to discuss how healthy the child is? Because if you're healthy,
33:36
Speaker 1: by default, you're not unhealthy. That's generally the binary, right,
33:40
Speaker 1: And of course it's levels. So the health theer you are,
33:44
Speaker 1: then the less likely you are to be unhealthier, right,
33:49
Speaker 1: That's I think pretty obvious. So in order for your
33:53
Speaker 1: child to be healthier, feed your child, you know, better food,
33:59
Speaker 1: and get him outside and get him running around and
34:02
Speaker 1: do all the stuff that that that you know, would
34:06
Speaker 1: be healthy. You know what our grandparents told us, rather
34:11
Speaker 1: than focusing on things that are bought in boxes, you know,
34:15
Speaker 1: for them to eat, and it says, you know, with
34:17
Speaker 1: extra added vitamins or whatever like, just ignore that stuff
34:21
Speaker 1: and stop worrying about vaccines first. That that's the lost thing.
34:27
Speaker 2: You see. Uh, there's two. There's two as usual with
34:31
Speaker 2: this this kind of conversation. There's two sort of aspects this.
34:35
Speaker 2: We've got this sort of western first world situation with vaccination.
34:41
Speaker 2: We've also got the global size, developing world situation with
34:47
Speaker 2: vaccines and vaccines and in that situation, to my mind,
34:51
Speaker 2: are just another expression of the imperilous brutality that we've
34:56
Speaker 2: seen over several hundred years. So where we're basically saying,
34:59
Speaker 2: particularly an Africa, for example, well, your mineral resources are ours,
35:04
Speaker 2: and therefore we will keep you in abject poverty, barely
35:08
Speaker 2: able to feed yourselves, certainly not able to have a
35:11
Speaker 2: healthy environment, will make sure that your water maintains a
35:17
Speaker 2: certain level of danger and so on. But don't worry.
35:20
Speaker 2: We'll come along and we will vaccinate you, and that
35:23
Speaker 2: will solve all of these problems that we refuse to
35:27
Speaker 2: allow you to deal with. So you know, we maintain
35:31
Speaker 2: countries at a level of poverty that guarantees that they're
35:35
Speaker 2: the terrain there having to exist in is basically unhealthy.
35:40
Speaker 2: And then we come in with the pharmaceuticals, which you know,
35:46
Speaker 2: first world tax payers are paying for, and we vaccinated
35:51
Speaker 2: the hell out of everybody. I'm not sure how that
35:53
Speaker 2: isn't just adding in salt injury.
35:58
Speaker 1: And it also is economically ineffective. I mean Pfiser and Moderna,
36:06
Speaker 1: et cetera. These are not movements. These are multi billion
36:12
Speaker 1: dollar corporations that don't give these things out for free.
36:15
Speaker 1: Somebody's paying for them, and that's coming from the taxpayers.
36:19
Speaker 1: And across the African continent where there's a lot of poverty,
36:23
Speaker 1: you're making everybody poorer by using their money to pay
36:26
Speaker 1: for these things.
36:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's our money too. It's not just their money.
36:31
Speaker 2: Because their money, they don't have enough money to make
36:34
Speaker 2: any major difference to the corporate profits of Pfiser and
36:37
Speaker 2: Madonna and these types of companies. This is our tax
36:42
Speaker 2: payer money which is being used to brutalize these people,
36:47
Speaker 2: and that that makes it our problem as well.
36:53
Speaker 1: Because I mean, if Bill Gates says, well, we're going
36:55
Speaker 1: to go hand sorry not hand out. Well, yeah, same thing.
36:57
Speaker 1: We're going to go and distribute this and no cost
37:00
Speaker 1: to the Africans. Right, that's coming from somewhere. That money,
37:04
Speaker 1: it's coming from somewhere. And he does that, by the way,
37:09
Speaker 1: not just not just Gabby, but other organizations. They'll they'll
37:12
Speaker 1: come and say, well, you know, we care about the Africans,
37:15
Speaker 1: so we're not going to charge them, but somebody's being charged.
37:17
Speaker 2: Mike, Yeah, exactly.
37:22
Speaker 1: The thing as a free lunch, there isn't.
37:26
Speaker 3: I went to a Earth Sorry, I think I have
37:29
Speaker 3: mentioned this before, either the largest or one of the
37:33
Speaker 3: largest syringe manufacturers in Africa a couple of years ago,
37:37
Speaker 3: Revital just north of Mombassa and Kenya, and it was
37:43
Speaker 3: it was. It was absolutely fascinating because again exactly like
37:48
Speaker 3: you're pediatrician. They it was a family firm they had
37:53
Speaker 3: they been going for I mean, it was a very
37:55
Speaker 3: it was a very very well run business and from
37:58
Speaker 3: manufacturing point of view, it is fascinating to watch. It
38:00
Speaker 3: was very very well done. And actually also interestingly they
38:06
Speaker 3: had covered all of their warehouses and factory buildings in
38:11
Speaker 3: solar panels and so you know. I asked about that, said, right,
38:16
Speaker 3: so what is this you knows anything to do with
38:20
Speaker 3: net zero climate change? And he just laughed and said,
38:23
Speaker 3: it be ridiculous. For in Kenya there's no power. We
38:27
Speaker 3: need our own power and you know, and so they
38:30
Speaker 3: sorted it out and they had their own supply power. Anyway,
38:32
Speaker 3: that's that's a bit of an aside. What was so
38:35
Speaker 3: fascinating though, was that, like you're pediatrician, completely well intentioned.
38:39
Speaker 3: They they thought that they were part of a machine,
38:46
Speaker 3: a wider operation that enabled healthcare across the continent. And
38:53
Speaker 3: it was only when we got onto the COVID JAB
38:57
Speaker 3: that there was a sort of a glitch in the
39:01
Speaker 3: conversation because it was totally fascinating. The young chap I
39:04
Speaker 3: spoke to, who was very very nice and very open,
39:08
Speaker 3: did absolutely talk about friends of his that he knew
39:12
Speaker 3: had been harmed by the JAB. Because my question was,
39:15
Speaker 3: so what, not really so much in liability, but just
39:19
Speaker 3: in terms of your thoughts on the matter. You know,
39:22
Speaker 3: what happens if your products, your syringes, are used for
39:27
Speaker 3: a drug that subsequently turns out to be very harmful.
39:30
Speaker 3: That was the line of conversation, and he did of
39:34
Speaker 3: course speak about the COVID jab having harmed friends. So
39:38
Speaker 3: it's a very odd thing to listen to from somebody
39:41
Speaker 3: who is completely facilitating all that. But exactly like you say,
39:48
Speaker 3: the money side of it, and when you talk about
39:52
Speaker 3: Bill Gates or whoever it is pushing this stuff out,
39:55
Speaker 3: this was exactly what they were at the front end
39:58
Speaker 3: of doing, coordinating teams in partnership with the government in
40:04
Speaker 3: order that they would go out into the regions and
40:08
Speaker 3: they would start to you know, diagnose people who've never
40:11
Speaker 3: seen a medic before with something that they didn't know
40:15
Speaker 3: they had brackets, they don't have close brackets, and then
40:21
Speaker 3: to say, oh, you know, this will this will finish
40:24
Speaker 3: you off, but but don't worry, I've got just the drug.
40:27
Speaker 3: And that's how it starts. And so, yes, you're right
40:32
Speaker 3: that that these people are not paying in the first instance,
40:36
Speaker 3: but it's absolutely bringing them into a system where if
40:40
Speaker 3: they do ever generate income, they will absolutely be paying
40:43
Speaker 3: for it. And otherwise we are, of course paying for it.
40:48
Speaker 3: But it's it's very disturbing and I think with modern
40:52
Speaker 3: communications being what they are and the ability to digitize
40:56
Speaker 3: and keep records in a way that wasn't previously possible,
41:00
Speaker 3: you know, runs alongside the push for identity and all
41:04
Speaker 3: that kind of thing. Again that the line is, you know,
41:07
Speaker 3: because it's empowering because otherwise, you know, your your life
41:11
Speaker 3: is not worth anything if you can't demonstrate who you are,
41:14
Speaker 3: and you think, well, why do you actually, if you've
41:18
Speaker 3: lived for generations without needing to do that, why do
41:21
Speaker 3: you need to do it? So yeah, it's it is
41:25
Speaker 3: very much happening, and there is a huge amount of
41:27
Speaker 3: money involved, but as you say, not their money, but
41:30
Speaker 3: our money.
41:32
Speaker 1: Having said that, and I don't know if I've told
41:35
Speaker 1: you this particular story. I have spoken about this a
41:38
Speaker 1: couple of times on my show over the years. But
41:40
Speaker 1: about twenty minutes away from my house, during COVID they
41:46
Speaker 1: built a huge, absolutely massive pharmaceutical manufacturing warehouse or something.
41:54
Speaker 1: I don't quite know exactly what it was because they
41:56
Speaker 1: didn't label it, but how I knew it was that
42:00
Speaker 1: it's because the mayor went and they had that big
42:02
Speaker 1: opening ceremony with a ribbon and you cut it with
42:05
Speaker 1: us big scissors and all that sort of nonsense, and
42:09
Speaker 1: then he made a talk about, you know, we're bringing
42:12
Speaker 1: COVID vaccines cheaply to our people of South Africa. As
42:18
Speaker 1: you know, South African's overwhelmingly rejected the vaccine, and I
42:22
Speaker 1: think the uptake was like less than one percent. It
42:26
Speaker 1: was very very low. Well within I think a year,
42:30
Speaker 1: that entire building had been sold off and now it's
42:34
Speaker 1: being used for something else. I mean a multi million
42:38
Speaker 1: US dollar operation that just fell because the people just said, nah,
42:43
Speaker 1: not interested. And that's one of the things I love
42:45
Speaker 1: about about living here. And I think this extends across
42:49
Speaker 1: you know, subs are on Africa, there's a very healthy
42:53
Speaker 1: suspicion and skepticism towards authority structures. And I think in
43:02
Speaker 1: the West or First War countries, I guess they're kind
43:05
Speaker 1: of interlinked, but genuinely there's a lot more compliance. I mean,
43:09
Speaker 1: countries are supposed like your own, and I don't mean
43:12
Speaker 1: that in a horrible way, but I think people generally
43:13
Speaker 1: are more compliant and and and less less sort of
43:18
Speaker 1: middle finger. And I'm not quite sure why it's like that.
43:21
Speaker 1: Perhaps it's just historical, I don't know, but I was.
43:24
Speaker 1: It's just a story that that that you reminded me
43:26
Speaker 1: now to tell you.
43:28
Speaker 2: About well, I mean, I don't mean Charles is going
43:33
Speaker 2: to be answered this better than I can't. I don't know.
43:36
Speaker 2: I haven't had I haven't been to Africa at all,
43:38
Speaker 2: and my life unfortunately tod it, so I can't really
43:42
Speaker 2: say what kind of in many of these countries. Yeah,
43:48
Speaker 2: but but you see South Africa, though, isn't you know,
43:51
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that that is quite the same thing
43:55
Speaker 2: as you can maybe yeah, yeah, no, no, But but
44:01
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just thinking, you know, how much because
44:04
Speaker 2: because of the the the nature of living in a
44:08
Speaker 2: so called first world country where we're just constantly bombarded
44:12
Speaker 2: with media and and so on, you know, the the
44:16
Speaker 2: psychological impact of that is much stronger. And also the
44:22
Speaker 2: fact that we are subject to, you know, a jurisprudence
44:29
Speaker 2: system that that you know, with with the idea that
44:33
Speaker 2: that we we have abandoned the idea of innoc until
44:37
Speaker 2: proven guilty for so many so called smaller offenses like
44:40
Speaker 2: driving offenses and so on, that that we have been
44:44
Speaker 2: beaten into submission in many ways.
44:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think suspected.
44:50
Speaker 2: I suspected that many African countries or or developments are
44:54
Speaker 2: called developing nations, are are not subject to that same
44:58
Speaker 2: kind of psychological control.
45:01
Speaker 1: But I think I think I think it's it's it's
45:06
Speaker 1: six of one and a half a dozen of the
45:07
Speaker 1: other that each come at their own cost without getting sidetracked.
45:14
Speaker 1: But I mean, for example, in perhaps in the UK
45:17
Speaker 1: or in Canada, whatever, there's a much better infrastructural network
45:22
Speaker 1: of everything, you know, in terms of reliability, things working,
45:25
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. The cost of what I'm talking
45:29
Speaker 1: about is generally, if you have a healthy suspicion of
45:31
Speaker 1: the state, it's probably because the state is remarkably corrupt
45:35
Speaker 1: and broken and inept and useless, and that comes at
45:39
Speaker 1: at further costs, like you have broken infrastructures.
45:41
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't I don't think. I don't
45:43
Speaker 2: think that's quite because I think if you ask the
45:46
Speaker 2: average potent person in the UK what they think of
45:49
Speaker 2: the state, they would probably say exactly those things. So
45:53
Speaker 2: I don't think it's I don't think it's quite that
45:55
Speaker 2: because even though there's a recognition that the state is
45:58
Speaker 2: utterly broken and corrupted so on, still there's a high
46:01
Speaker 2: degree of compliance because of the of the way that
46:05
Speaker 2: the state interacts with individuals and and you know, it
46:09
Speaker 2: slaps finds on them and for this behavior and so on.
46:12
Speaker 2: You know, we're talking about we're talking about a social
46:15
Speaker 2: credit system. It's absolutely here and and and people behave
46:21
Speaker 2: in a particular way as a response to that and
46:24
Speaker 2: and that kind of infrastructure. I suspect it is not
46:27
Speaker 2: the same. And on the African continent.
46:31
Speaker 1: It's a very yeah. I mean, that's an interesting point because,
46:35
Speaker 1: at the risk of mentioning China again, which I often do,
46:38
Speaker 1: but there you have a very compliant society, but you
46:42
Speaker 1: have you actually have a state that appears to work
46:46
Speaker 1: very effectively for the people, if that makes sense. I mean,
46:49
Speaker 1: the cops don't even have guns, they don't need to,
46:52
Speaker 1: whereas here they do. They are heavily armed here because
46:56
Speaker 1: people really don't respect authority here, so the of have
47:00
Speaker 1: to get almost physically beaten into submission on a daily basis.
47:05
Speaker 1: It's a bit more wild West, yeah, than what it
47:09
Speaker 1: is it. I'm wondering if there's a cultural aspect of
47:11
Speaker 1: this also, I don't know. I'm just asking. I don't
47:15
Speaker 1: know the answer. I've thought about this a lot and
47:18
Speaker 1: I have no no, even I don't even have a
47:22
Speaker 1: remotely close conclusion to what could be an answer.
47:26
Speaker 3: It's an interesting one. I think it's quite chicken an
47:28
Speaker 3: egg on the cultural front with regard to violence. I mean,
47:33
Speaker 3: I think one way in the in the United Kingdom,
47:40
Speaker 3: for example, there are we do have armed police, but
47:44
Speaker 3: not very many, and typically they don't do anything with
47:49
Speaker 3: their firearms, so they on average eighteen and let me
47:56
Speaker 3: get this right, six thousand, about six thousand firearms officers
48:01
Speaker 3: in the United Kingdom on average will discharge about ten
48:05
Speaker 3: rounds in When I say in anger, I'm I'm afraid
48:09
Speaker 3: to say, I think some of those accidental or negligent discharges.
48:12
Speaker 3: But either way, in the line of duty, about ten
48:16
Speaker 3: rounds a year discharged and so therefore they're basically pointless. However,
48:22
Speaker 3: did you sorry, did you say ten rounds? Ten rounds? Yeah,
48:25
Speaker 3: So the statistics are amazing. There six thousand firearms officers
48:32
Speaker 3: who have about eighteen thousand firearms deployments per year. So basically,
48:36
Speaker 3: if you were a firearms officer, then on average, you
48:39
Speaker 3: would be deployed three times a year in the whole
48:42
Speaker 3: of the year to what's described as a firearms incident.
48:45
Speaker 3: So it becomes a firearms incident where that either is
48:48
Speaker 3: a firearm involved or reckoned to be involved, or the
48:53
Speaker 3: level of violence is such that you think you need
48:55
Speaker 3: a firearms presence, otherwise they're just filling in doing all
48:58
Speaker 3: sorts of other stuff in Over the course of eighteen
49:01
Speaker 3: thousand incidents that they respond to about ten ten rounds
49:05
Speaker 3: of discharge. Yeah, so so yes, as I say, statistically pointless.
49:12
Speaker 3: But but in the in the instances where they have
49:16
Speaker 3: shot at or shot somebody, the response to that is
49:22
Speaker 3: I mean, the one that springs to mind was was London,
49:26
Speaker 3: I forget his first name, Duggan, and there was tremendous
49:31
Speaker 3: violence as a result of that. So so therefore what
49:35
Speaker 3: I'm my point is that if police went around the
49:37
Speaker 3: place blatting more rounds off and shooting more people, then
49:42
Speaker 3: I think it would follow that the population would become
49:44
Speaker 3: more violent. I think I think that's an upward spiral.
49:48
Speaker 3: How you down with that spiral, No one seems to
49:50
Speaker 3: quite worked out. But that so that that I would
49:53
Speaker 3: say is one thing I think on the on why
49:56
Speaker 3: Africa appears to be different. I do think, yes, I
50:00
Speaker 3: think culture might have something to do with it, But
50:03
Speaker 3: then again that's that's a little bit nebulous.
50:07
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a huge continent exactly.
50:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, So to pin that down is tricky. However, I
50:16
Speaker 3: think there are two things. I think there is a
50:18
Speaker 3: totally well founded suspicion of the outsider, so I would
50:22
Speaker 3: say that the state does fall into that. You know,
50:26
Speaker 3: these these great, big fat men in their huge, great
50:29
Speaker 3: cars are quite clearly outsiders. They're not there in some
50:34
Speaker 3: of them do will pretend to be from still from
50:37
Speaker 3: whichever tribe, it's quite clear that that they're not. They
50:40
Speaker 3: don't really share any identity. You could say the same
50:42
Speaker 3: in the West as well. But I think the difference
50:45
Speaker 3: there is more stark. And by outside I mean I
50:48
Speaker 3: do I do also mean the white man. I don't mean,
50:50
Speaker 3: I don't mean the race element, but just the difference.
50:52
Speaker 3: It's somebody who's very obviously different, and therefore you mistrust
50:57
Speaker 3: is the default and I think that served people well time.
51:00
Speaker 3: And then the other one, exactly like Mike says, in fact,
51:03
Speaker 3: is the technical infrastructure. And just just to substantiate this
51:08
Speaker 3: with an anecdote, okay, silly, but I was pulled over
51:11
Speaker 3: once on I think it was the Nairabi Mombassa road
51:15
Speaker 3: in Kenya, apparently for speeding. And the guy what he had,
51:19
Speaker 3: he had his little hair dryer speed gun thing, and
51:22
Speaker 3: he walked up to me to my window and showed me,
51:25
Speaker 3: I kid you, not a children's exercise book, to a
51:30
Speaker 3: paper exercise book with my speed written in it in
51:37
Speaker 3: a column, and that was his that was his evidence.
51:40
Speaker 3: So it didn't the gun hadn't actually recorded. I mean,
51:44
Speaker 3: he couldn't show me on the gun that I'd gone
51:46
Speaker 3: that fast. So I simply said, well, you know, that
51:50
Speaker 3: looks great, and if my card did go that fast,
51:53
Speaker 3: I'd be delighted, but unfortunately it doesn't. So we had
51:57
Speaker 3: a huge laugh about it, and on I went. Basically
52:00
Speaker 3: what I was actually saying was I'm definitely not going
52:02
Speaker 3: to pay you a bribe, and I know that all
52:04
Speaker 3: you've got is an exercise book. So I think we're
52:07
Speaker 3: done here, aren't we. So we just we parted friends
52:09
Speaker 3: because he knew that I'd called his bluff and that
52:13
Speaker 3: was it. But here suddenly in the United Kingdom, tediously,
52:19
Speaker 3: for everybody concerned, we are several steps beyond that. We
52:23
Speaker 3: do have a NPR and recording. You know, we do
52:26
Speaker 3: have an audit trail for all this stuff, which means
52:29
Speaker 3: that the paperwork, you know, it is there, and then
52:33
Speaker 3: it is linked to this, that and the other, and
52:35
Speaker 3: it's you know, going back to the social credit thing.
52:37
Speaker 3: So if you do decide right, well, yeah, okay, I've
52:41
Speaker 3: had a letter through about speeding, but I'm not going
52:42
Speaker 3: to do anything about it. The problem with that is
52:45
Speaker 3: that there may be a consequence that does in fact
52:49
Speaker 3: have an impact on your life in a way that
52:52
Speaker 3: I think in lots of places where there isn't that
52:54
Speaker 3: degree of technocracy, it's the consequences and not yet the same.
52:59
Speaker 3: So I'm in the obviously the fear for Africans or
53:04
Speaker 3: you know, people that are not yet under this kind
53:06
Speaker 3: of a yoke, because that that situation will developed because
53:10
Speaker 3: technology continues to pervade, so that I'd say that those
53:13
Speaker 3: are the sort of more straightforward reasons for it.
53:15
Speaker 2: I think, yes.
53:17
Speaker 1: I mean that's a very interesting talking point there, which
53:19
Speaker 1: we can have on a different day, because I think
53:20
Speaker 1: there's an entire discussion that one can have about the
53:25
Speaker 1: chronology of a society's growth running in parallel with technological growth.
53:31
Speaker 1: Let me try and explain that. So South Africa, for example,
53:33
Speaker 1: and like many subs are in African countries, have very
53:39
Speaker 1: broken infrastructure and when it's working, it's only working in
53:43
Speaker 1: little areas here and there, but technology kind of circumvence that,
53:49
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. So we've got a very very
53:52
Speaker 1: intricate tech sector in South Africa and it's quite advanced.
53:58
Speaker 1: We don't need trains and and and decent roads and
54:03
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff for the tech to work
54:05
Speaker 1: because the tech goes you know, through the through the airwaves,
54:09
Speaker 1: and there's a very interesting dynamic that occurs as a result.
54:13
Speaker 1: I mean, I think every South African has got a
54:14
Speaker 1: cell phone, you know what I mean. They can access YouTube,
54:18
Speaker 1: but they might not be able to take a train.
54:21
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I don't know what that means
54:24
Speaker 1: for the future, but it's it certainly can tie into
54:29
Speaker 1: technocracy that you just mentioned.
54:31
Speaker 2: Well, what what it means for the whole of Africa
54:34
Speaker 2: is that it's being used as a as a pilot
54:37
Speaker 2: scheme for many of the digital money systems that are
54:41
Speaker 2: eventually going to be ruled out in other countries, and
54:44
Speaker 2: that that's problematic.
54:49
Speaker 1: It's definitely problematic because somehow the technology leapfrogged infrastructural development. So,
54:57
Speaker 1: like I said, it's not it's not chronological. You know,
54:59
Speaker 1: we we're not behind in everything. We are on par
55:03
Speaker 1: with other things. And it's it's a very it's just
55:06
Speaker 1: a very strange dichotomy to to to witness because the
55:11
Speaker 1: President of South Africa just two weeks ago announced that
55:16
Speaker 1: the government is now discussing the development of infrastructure for
55:22
Speaker 1: digital idea. He said this on TV. So there it is.
55:26
Speaker 1: It's now open and it is coming. But I don't
55:29
Speaker 1: know how it will occur because because of the broken infrastructure,
55:34
Speaker 1: I don't know how how the uptake will be. But
55:37
Speaker 1: it will be interesting to observe in the you know,
55:39
Speaker 1: in the coming years. But that's not that far behind
55:43
Speaker 1: you know what's going on in perhaps the UK or
55:48
Speaker 1: the US.
55:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's it's enormously regretsible that that can
55:54
Speaker 3: be done without that needing to be any of the
55:57
Speaker 3: other things that you mentioned. And I think this is
56:00
Speaker 3: this has happened across the board. We are we are
56:05
Speaker 3: in a mess. I mean infrastructure. I think even in
56:08
Speaker 3: many supposedly developed or civilized countries or advanced or however
56:13
Speaker 3: you want to say it, there aren't that many where
56:15
Speaker 3: everything works, I would say certainly in the in Western Europe.
56:19
Speaker 3: I think again, United Kingdom is an absolutely brilliant example having
56:23
Speaker 3: set up a I think it's fair to say a
56:28
Speaker 3: very good system of transport, both for passengers and freight
56:35
Speaker 3: via canals, via railways and then roads, that the whole
56:41
Speaker 3: thing has become completely out of kilter because you've had
56:44
Speaker 3: developments I think roads in particular, and then too many cars,
56:49
Speaker 3: not repairing the roads, taking away many of the railways,
56:53
Speaker 3: doing crazy things with flights and airports, and now the
56:56
Speaker 3: result is that the entire thing is complete mess. And
56:59
Speaker 3: so with that being case, it should I don't think
57:03
Speaker 3: it should follow that you should be able to plunker
57:06
Speaker 3: a sort of digital architecture at the top of it
57:08
Speaker 3: and say, yeah, they go that that that all works.
57:11
Speaker 3: It to me, that would only follow if everything else
57:15
Speaker 3: was in place and running as it's supposed to, because
57:19
Speaker 3: the problem is that when you when you do put
57:21
Speaker 3: that the digital layer in, then the rest of it
57:24
Speaker 3: just gets forgotten about, doesn't you know, there's no there's
57:28
Speaker 3: no need for it to be to be pulled up
57:30
Speaker 3: to sort of meet that in effect, And I think
57:34
Speaker 3: we're you know, everybody suffers doubly because of it. So
57:38
Speaker 3: I don't know, I'm not I'm not sure what the
57:40
Speaker 3: answer is there with the with the with the sort
57:43
Speaker 3: of hard infrastructure.
57:45
Speaker 1: And I will say this that a lot of this
57:48
Speaker 1: digital infrastructure that is being builty in South Africa is
57:52
Speaker 1: not Chinese. That's going to have site a few a
57:55
Speaker 1: few folks because apparently I'm a chine maxer. But it
57:58
Speaker 1: appears that that a lot of this tech is not
58:01
Speaker 1: coming from from the East. It is coming from from
58:05
Speaker 1: from uh A Western fintech. Yes.
58:11
Speaker 2: And and you know, in terms of the digital ID
58:14
Speaker 2: roll out in Africa, GERM, the unfortunate thing is that
58:19
Speaker 2: a lot of payments in in Africa right across the
58:22
Speaker 2: consonant are digital lonely. And of course if you simply
58:26
Speaker 2: then say to somebody, well you can't make payments anymore
58:29
Speaker 2: unless you've also have this extra layer in place, then
58:33
Speaker 2: that guarantees the rollout because because currency is difficult mm hm.
58:41
Speaker 1: And Swift is not Chinese or Asian. I think Swift
58:43
Speaker 1: is Western, isn't it nowadays?
58:46
Speaker 2: That's that's why that's part of the the justification for
58:53
Speaker 2: Russia and China to go their own way with with
58:56
Speaker 2: clearing systems, and and that that's certainly been part of
59:00
Speaker 2: the drive for them to implement some kind of CBDC
59:05
Speaker 2: if they're of their own at a whole so called
59:09
Speaker 2: wholesale level, in order to try to manage some of
59:12
Speaker 2: these international payments.
59:16
Speaker 1: By the way, CBDC is a term that we apparently
59:19
Speaker 1: shouldn't be using any modern if Katheryne Austin Fitz has
59:22
Speaker 1: made us clear enough. But she's been making the argument
59:25
Speaker 1: now that the language is changing because it's not only
59:28
Speaker 1: cbdc's that are programmable. So she says we must say
59:31
Speaker 1: programmable money because it covers a broader spectrum.
59:35
Speaker 2: That's a very I think that's a very valid point,
59:37
Speaker 2: and particularly in the United States at the moment where
59:40
Speaker 2: where the Federal Reserve has been banned from pursuing CBDC
59:45
Speaker 2: for another for ten years or whatever it is, because
59:49
Speaker 2: because you know, Trump wants to create this privatized equivalent,
59:54
Speaker 2: and so it matter whether it's yeah, but it's it's
59:59
Speaker 2: it's the same thing, jam, you know, So it doesn't
1:00:02
Speaker 2: really make any difference whether whether it's you know, coming
1:00:07
Speaker 2: from an effectively privatized central banking system or private corporations.
1:00:14
Speaker 2: It's it's the same kind of thing. So I think
1:00:15
Speaker 2: I think your points absolutely valid. All right.
1:00:20
Speaker 1: I see times against us, and we had a very
1:00:22
Speaker 1: stream of consciousness banter session, which of course is my favorite.
1:00:26
Speaker 1: I I like that we covered a lot of ground
1:00:28
Speaker 1: and also in menu respects no ground. But gentlemen, thank
1:00:34
Speaker 1: you so much. I'll catch up with you next week.
1:01:06
Speaker 1: My name is jerm. This is Scherm Warfare, the Battle
1:01:09
Speaker 1: of Ideas.