Latest / NaturallyScott / E84 Lynne Trulio – Burrowing Owls: Underground Homes, Rattlesnake Tricks & the Fight to Survive 🦉

Transcript

E84 Lynne Trulio – Burrowing Owls: Underground Homes, Rattlesnake Tricks & the Fight to Survive 🦉 · NaturallyScott

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Batcoy Scott, our weekly podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Scott Harris.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's my pleasure for me to be able to host this overweek.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to it and work yet.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if you are familiar with them, you're going to learn more than you thought that there was to work.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: They are fascinating little creatures.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely love them.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Living on the East Coast, I get to see them most often down in Florida.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I do get to see them in California and Arizona and different places as well.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: And Lynn is going to be sharing some of her stories today with us.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Lynn, welcome to the show.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much for having me, Scott.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Happy to be here to talk about burrowing owls.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we are looking forward to it.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you're a Marin, a Maryland gal, and if memory serves from a previous conversation, a barn owl was your first owl.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I would say that was the first owl that I spent some time studying.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um I knew barred owls uh from Maryland and also barn owls, which of course are are very common um throughout Maryland and really the world.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: They're a very widely distributed owl.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: But um I got to know bard owls um fairly well.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: And they are uh excuse my French, but they're a bit of a badass owl.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Bard owls and great they don't it's it's they are it's not really their fault, okay?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, um they are the basically eastern equivalent of the northern spotted owls.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: And they're in the same genus, they're closely related to northern spotted owls.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but they were geographically separated from spotted owls for a very long time.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: However, umred owls are very flexible and they basically have followed humans across, well, white people, across uh North America, and um, and so have expanded their range into where spotted owls are now.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is probably what you're referring to.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that's a whole different thing.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: We actually have a gentleman coming on the next couple weeks to talk specifically about the barred and spotted owls.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's we will look forward to that.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: But your journey from Maryland took you out to UC Davis in California.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: And your path to burrowing owls started with squirrels.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's right.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: My my path to burrowing owls started with California ground squirrels and um ground squirrels, California ground squirrels, if you're from the East Coast, you you and haven't been west, you you haven't seen a ground squirrel.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: They're closely related to prairie dogs, and so they occur, you know, throughout you know, these these um colonial rodents, which dig burrows and live in colonies, are found, you know, throughout the the west.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the California ground squirrel is a very um common squirrel here in California, and as I said, closely related to uh to prairie dogs.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: And burrowing owls live in burrows, they take over burrows dug by other animals, such as these colonial rodents, uh, such as prairie dogs and ground squirrels.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So they live with prairie dogs and ground squirrels in their colonies.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was studying California ground squirrels as part of my for my PhD, and I learned a lot about them, and as a result, I got to learn and got to know burrowing owls, which are colony cohabitants with the ground squirrels.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And this was literally on the UC Davis campus.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: This was on the UC Davis campus.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: That that's right.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh which is pretty convenient.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: And and very sort of unexpected.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I really didn't know anything about burrowing owls until I started to see them on campus with the ground squirrels.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was looking at ground squirrels and then there are these owls living with them.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: And um and that is because one would not see burrowing owls on the west on the east coast unless you're in Florida, because there is a subspecies of burrowing owl in Florida, the Florida burrowing owl, which Scott, you you have gotten to see, and they're actually very famous.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: There are this the bird of Cape Coral, I believe it is.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: And Cape Coral takes their burrowing owls very seriously, and they do really they have a burrowing owl festival every year, and they do a lot to protect their burrowing owls, and that that is that is really fantastic.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so that's the only place you'd really see them on the East Coast.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an amazing thing, too, um, to watch them in Cape Coral because they're completely habituated to humans.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so the town has a policy where when there's a burrowing owl burrow, they take these little two-inch PVC pipes and they pound out about a 10-foot square.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that is where humans are supposed to stay back, photographers and children and enthusiasts.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the burrows, you know, they're fine.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: They let people walk right up to the end.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I've been down there quite a few times.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: I've never seen anybody um intrude on that little, on that little square.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: They they seem to really respect.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, my favorite place to watch them in all of Cape Coral is at the Pelican baseball fields.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: They live just outside of center and left field, um, in a little grassy area between attractive homes and an active baseball field.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And there are burrowing owls.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for those of us that chase owls, normally that's not an easy thing to do.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And no, it isn't.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and they are very they are an extremely unusual owl.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so the first very unusual thing, which we've mentioned, is that they live in burrows.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: They they nest in burrows, they use burrows to escape from predators.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: They're the only owl in the world that lives and nests underground.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: So that's amazing.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Another amazing thing about them is they can become, they they will use a wide range of habitats.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: So they're actually a bird of the prairie where you have short grass, they don't want any trees.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: So what they're looking for is a good view, all right?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: So that baseball field provides a great view because they want to be able to see predators coming in.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: So burrowing owls are a predator, they're a raptor, they're a bird of prey, but they're also eaten by larger birds of prey.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: So they want to have a good view.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: For example, red-tailed hawks, very dangerous, very, very dangerous.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, also they will they can get dug out by skunks or or or um uh coyotes.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Mostly I would say birds of prey, such as the red-tailed hawk, are some of their most dangerous predators.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So to the barns at Great Horn predate the burrowing owls?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, they they would.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, so uh the hawks during the day, the larger owls at night.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'll never forget one time I was calling, I was in an area looking for owls.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was using a call looking for burrowing owls.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: I was using a caller, I was in my car, using a caller, calling that you was um transmitting the owl's primary call.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's called the cuckoo call.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: And they go cuckoo, cuckoo, like this.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: So that they're I was transmitting this call, and I didn't get a burrowing owl, but I got a great horned owl coming in to swooping in thinking it was gonna grab a burrowing owl.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: I know that was pretty exciting.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: So they they do need a good a good view, and while they are a bird of the prairie, that's where that's their natural habitat, and I'll talk a little more about that in a minute, but they will adapt to human altered environments, as you have seen in Cape Coral.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: They will live on um golf courses, they'll live on you you mentioned the baseball field.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's an excellent place because they have a great view, there's no trees there, you know, and so it's it's a kind of place so long as they have burrows and enough food and they can get habituated to people, but as long as there's not so much disturbance that they're constantly disturbed and you know, having to fly or whatever, you know, they they can adapt to a wide range of habitats.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: So in places where they are found throughout the West, you can find them on golf courses, they're on a number of military bases, which actually are pretty good places for them because like there's no trees, there's short grass, and there's no uh recreation, no, no people.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: The public is not allowed.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's kind of a nice place for but so you'll see them on military bases, uh and and so and also they are one of the few birds of prey that will do well in some agricultural settings.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: So we see them in the Imperial Valley of California.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: That is in fact the largest population of burrowing owls in California and probably in the U.S.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's Olag.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's all agricultural, and they are really what's the attraction to the agricultural habitat for the burrowing?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they they are able to do well in what are called flood-irrigated types of agriculture, and the attraction is this in the Imperial Valley, which is actually very dry, but water comes in in channels.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Those channels are have berms, and in those berms are a lot of ground squirrels.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: These are round tailed ground squirrels down there, so there's a lot of burrows for the owls to use.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And when the floods are when the fields are flooded, that brings up insects and and rodents, and those are the primary foods of burrowing owls large insects, small rodents.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so that type of agriculture can support burrowing owls.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Other types of agriculture, no.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: So we found like soybeans.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: They don't they don't like soybeans.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: They certainly don't like I don't either.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Scott, they're good for you.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's usually a sign that I won't like it.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh dear.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, and unfortunately, um, they also don't do well in orchards or in vineyards.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: So there's only certain types of agriculture.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Alfalfa, the great place.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now, backing up a little bit, we were talking about Florida and we'll call them West Coast Brewing Owls.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're the Florida Brewing Owl.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, as as you've as you've explained to me in the in the past, I believe this is true, that the West, the West Coast brewing owls take over existing burrows from prairie dogs and ground squirrels.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: But the Florida um brewing owls are capable of digging their own burrows.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, they are, and that's a bit of a unique quality of the Florida burrowing owl that might happen with some other subspecies too, but mostly those subspecies I'm thinking of take over burrows dug by other animals.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: But in Florida, they do dig their own burrows, and I do think it's uh has to do a lot with with the soil conditions.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's quite easy to dig, you know, it's kind of sandy, uh very and so that is a kind of unique feature.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think they will certainly take over burrows that somebody has dug for them.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, they do extremely well in artificial burrows, where we create burrows for them using pipes and a little nest chamber.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: They do great with that.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: But in the in the West, squirrel they they they depend on squirrels, they depend so they'll use burrows dug by squirrels, desert tortoise, badgers, uh prairie dogs, of course, so and I've never seen one dig its own burrow out out west.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: They certainly do in Florida.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And do they live in the burrows year-round, or is that just during breeding season?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: And we certainly have found that they they you know during the breeding season, they'll start the breeding season by finding a burrow.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: A pair will find a burrow, they will then lay their eggs underground, the chicks will stay underground for about three weeks to, you know, little or so.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: They will come up out of the burrow.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: They will use the burrow to protect the chicks.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: They they want satellite burrows where the parents can get away from the chicks for a while, and the chicks can also start to spread out.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, certainly during the breeding season, but we have found during the winter they also are attached to a burrow.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Might not be the burrow where they nested, they might move out of that for a while.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Which and will the ground squirrels or the prairie dogs go back to a burrow that a burrowing owl has used?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: They will.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: They will go back in the in the winter in the non-breeding season when the owls event, you know, move out of the burrow.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: The squirrels will the owls are incredibly messy.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: They there's all kinds of stuff out in front of it.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's preyed remains and feathers and pellets.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they like all owls, they condense their food and kick out pellets.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: The squirrels will move in in the winter time, clean out the burrows, clean it all out, make it all nice and neat, and then in the spring, the owls will come back, kick out the squirrels, and move back in.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Will the owls actually kick out the squirrels?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't think it's quite.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: I that's a great question, Scott.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: I've never seen it in action.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's quite that um aggressive.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: What I do think happens most likely is this the squirrel is using a burrow that the owls used last year.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, the owls want to come back to the same burrow they nested in last year, especially if they were successful.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: So the squirrels are using this burrow.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's springtime, the owls want their burrow back.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: The squirrels, they go out and forage all day.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're they're out away from their burrow.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I believe what probably happens is during the day, squirrels away from the burrow.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Owls come back to the burrow and go, yep, this is the one.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is great.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then the squirrels come back in the late afternoon, and there are a couple of owls there, and the owls are like, no, you can't have this burrow.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: And squirrels just go off to one of the other 80 or 100 burrows they dug that day.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I know, and it's it's really I've never, like I say, I've never seen it in action, but I just knowing the behavior of squirrels and the behavior of owls, I think it's probably something like that.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: How how deep are the burrows and and how big is the nesting cavity at the bottom?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well, this is a question I have investigated, and years ago I did a study with one of my research partners, uh Dan Rosenberg from Oregon State.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: We were collecting eggs to see how see if see with if the owls were uh bioaccumulating um toxins in particular uh herbicides and and and pesticides in their bodies.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can test eggs for that.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we dug out a number of burrows.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: They tend to be about two to three, go down about two to three feet below the surface.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: They certainly go back around at least the squirrels, they will dig very intricate burrows, uh, but the owls will tend to use burrows that are you know four, six, eight feet tunneled long.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's a chamber in the back, it's not very big.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not very big, it's a little bit bigger than the than the tunnel itself, which tends to be about four to six inches in diameter, so it's not too big.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it's very interesting, it's not that big, but yet they will lay up to eleven eggs or so, and a lot of them will hatch and they'll all be crammed in there, but that's okay.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: I guess they're staying warm in there.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, I guess so.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now you mentioned earlier in our conversation that um skunks or coyotes will uh dig these burrows out.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: They will try.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's pretty it's pretty far for them to dig, but um they they're more likely maybe to try and dig and grab a very small chick or something like that that might be in the tunnel.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um not sure they can really dig all the way out, but they they certainly will give it a try.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um Okay.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um you had explained to me that the the chicks have a a neat um acoustic mimic uh uh to help in their survival rate.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us about that.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I'm glad you brought that up.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a a really fascinating behavior.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: The chicks do a very excellent rattlesnake mimic, and it is quite effective at keeping away predators and also researchers from putting their hands in into into the burrows.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's that's why you have interns.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we have students, that's right.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it it's one of the few acoustic mimics.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: We know of many, you know, visual mimics, right?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like the viceroy that mimics the monarch, the monarch's poisonous, the viceroy is not.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: But the owls, this is an acoustic mimic.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: And uh one of my one of the grad students I went to Davis with, Matt Rowe, characterized that that sound and showed that it was acoustically incredibly similar to a rattlesnake shaking its tail.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it is a great way for the chicks to protect themselves.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: It also shows the long evolutionary relationship that burrowing owls have had with prairie species.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: So rattlesnakes, you know, they're found in the west.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: They're and I don't you know, western burrowing owls make this sound.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: I've I don't know if people looked at it in the Florida burrowing owl, actually.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: That would be fascinating.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: I bet they don't, but maybe the maybe they I that's a really interesting question.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: But certainly the western burrowing owl subspecies um has evolved with prairie dogs and rattlesnakes, and because they have such a long relationship with them, they have evolved this mimic over time.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's quite I never heard the adults do it, but all these I was gonna say, do the do the chicks lose that as they grow into adulthood?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: It appears that they do, that they uh they don't use it when they get to be adults.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Which seems odd.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: It would be just as I imagine just as valuable for an adult down in a burrow.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh to determine the adults are they they defend themselves other ways.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: The chicks are pretty defenseless, you know.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, w what are the other ways?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: How does a how does a burrowing owl defend itself if there's a a red-tailed hawk or a skunk or a coyote in the area?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: What what does a burrowing owl do?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's a lovely question.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: What do they do?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they are very small.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: They only weigh about a quarter of a pound.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: They're quite they're quite little.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so their primary defense is to is to get into the burrow as quickly as possible.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so they have alarm calls.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: They have an alarm call, uh, several alarm calls, actually, which they will use in the breeding season to alert their young to get into the burrows, and maybe their other, you know, other uh relatives, you know, maybe their mate to get into the burrow.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: So there's they're always males in particular during the breeding season are always out there looking around, scanning the skies, looking for predators, like those hawks.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: And when they see one, they'll alarm call and dash into the burrow.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Another way they defend themselves.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Same as ground squirrels and prairie dogs, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Same as ground squirrels and prairie dogs, yes.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so another way they defend themselves is to listen for and the ground squirrels and prairie dogs also have a wide range of alarm calls.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: A wide range of alarm calls.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And why is that?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Why would you need more than one that just says get in the hole?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first of all, they have alarm calls because they live in in social units and they're related to a lot of the other uh prairie dogs or ground squirrels around them.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: So they want to protect their relatives, which of course is protecting their genetic heritage, right?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you need different alarm calls?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I spent so much time watching ground squirrels that I could tell when a ground squirrel was calling at a terrestrial predator versus an aerial predator.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: You be out I can.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't recommend watching them.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: For that long, but yes, you I I could tell when they were you know an aerial predator, the alarm call from a ground squirrel is a lot sharper, a lot quicker, like get the heck underground.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Terrestrial predators because it's it comes in it comes in very quickly.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Terrestrial predators take longer to get in, so it would be it'd be a different type of alarm call.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so when the owls are living with prairie dogs or ground squirrels, they will listen to the alarm calls of their squirrel buddies.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: And when they hear the alarm calls, they will respond to the squirrel alarm calls and go underground.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Does it work the other way?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do squirrels react to a burrowing owl alarm call?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, you know, I had a student who looked into this, Lisa Henderson, and she um did quantified the response of burrowing owls to squirrel alarm calls and squirrels to owl alarm calls.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the owls really benefit.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: I was the owls really benefit from the squirrels.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: They get the burrows from them, they get the burrows cleaned out by the squirrels, they get the squirrel alarm calls.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: What are the squirrels getting out of this?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I was really hoping they were gonna get the alarm calling from the owls, but they don't respond to the owl alarm calls.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Apparently, they only trust other squirrels.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: They don't respond to the owl alarm calls.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: So the squirrels so far, as far as I can tell, aren't getting a whole lot out of this.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um this is a pretty one-way relationship.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of a one-way relationship, but it's called a commensal relationship where one benefits and the other is like, eh, meh, doesn't really matter whether they're here or not.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: So if a squirrel went into therapy, the therapist would say, Look, you're this is not an equal relationship you've got going on with this owl.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: What are you getting out of this?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Come on.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: It should be a two-way street.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: But the squirrel would say, well, you know, there aren't that many of them.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Why waste time on them?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Who cares?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there you go.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in the years that you've been studying burrowing owls, how is the population doing?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Up, down, how is it reacting to climate change?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Are more of them overwintering?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: What are what are we seeing now that we didn't see 25 years ago?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: That last question is is very interesting.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give that a little thought.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: But the first, how are they doing?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, we have two subspecies in the U.S., so I'll just talk about those.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: The Florida Burrowing Owl, which you mentioned, and the Western Burrowing owl, which occurs west of the Mississippi, uh into prairie provinces, um, all the way out to the Pacific Coast, up into southern uh uh Canada, and down into northern Mexico.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's the range of the western Burrowing Owl.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: And throughout their range, uh the Western Burrowing owl is not doing well at all.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's been declining um really for decades.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's been declining for decades, and that is as a result of a number of factors.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: One is our war on prairie dogs and ground squirrels.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: When white people encountered prairie dogs, there were well, since white people encounter prairie dogs, we have reduced the population of prairie dogs by 98%.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: 908%.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: They really should be listed.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: They should be listed.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, they're not gonna list they're considered the pests, so they're not gonna be listed.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so as a result, and the same with ground squirrels, as a result, the owls are losing the species they depend on.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Also, we've converted lots and lots of owl habitat into agriculture, which not they can use some of, but not a lot of it, and of course, urban development.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: So in California, that's a huge problem for burrowing owls.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: And um and so also the poisoning of rodents, owls will be secondarily poisoned when they eat a rodent, it's had been poisoned by the road.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, huge issue.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Rosenticide is and you'll the spotted owl person who will talk about this, a huge issue for birds of prey.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Huge, terrible issue for birds.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: So so they haven't been doing well.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um their populations have been declining, and as a result, the burrowing owl um there are probably more burrowing owls in California than other any other western state, although we don't have great numbers on uh we don't have accurate numbers for a lot of the western states.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: But in California we had quite a few, but um just recently, uh two years ago, actually, the California Department of Fish and Wildlife, uh commission uh has recommended the Burrung Albi uh it's now a candidate species for listing as either threatened or endangered in California under state listing.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it should be listed?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: We tried twenty years ago and it should have been listed.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Then do you think it will be?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that is a decision for the agencies.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I all I can say is the California uh Department of Fish and Wildlife reviewed the data and recommended it for listing.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so as a candidate species, I don't know when that will happen, I don't know, but as a candidate species, it now has more protections than it did before when it was just a species of special concern.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's also the go ahead, go ahead.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, you go ahead, please.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: I was just gonna say the Florida burrowing owl is also uh had been doing quite well as a result of conversion of wetlands into uplands, which they were using, but now these uplands are being developed, and so their populations are declining.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: So in in Florida they were listed as uh a threatened species in in that state.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if we've if we've eliminated ninety-eight percent of the prairie dogs, have we eliminated ninety-eight percent of the brewing owls from their high point population?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we don't know what the population was in the history you know, pre pre-Columbian time, you know, be you know, before you know, in their historic condition.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: We don't really know.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we certainly have eliminated them from many much of their a lot of their range.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so their range is contracted as a result.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna talk about their range in a second, but uh and um you mentioned what's different today than twenty-five years ago.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so they have their range historically has contracted, but because the burrowing owl will colonize areas that are um human-altered, right?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Their population actually increased in some places where you not might not expect it.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, like in the Imperial Valley, there were never seventy percent of California's ground squirrels live in the Imperial Valley in this highly altered agricultural setting.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: There certainly weren't that many historically before we altered it.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so what what are how do numbers relate now to before we for instance you know, eliminated all the parry dogs?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: I really don't know.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: But certainly their range is contracted, and certainly in places where they're where they lived with parry dogs, there are far fewer of them.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: But there might be a little better density in some of the areas now.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: There there's more density in some areas, yes.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but in areas.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have enough historical data to know where we are.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not really as far as a hundred years ago with burrowing owls to today.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a great expert on the historical data.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's many indications that people felt that the early early naturals felt that burrowing owls were quite abundant and saw them in many, many places.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: So how that relates to today I I I don't I don't really know.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: One thing I want to think about about a difference between 25 years ago and now is that um twenty-five years ago we were altering lots of habitats and in some ways making them better for burrowing owls, but now we're developing a lot of those habitats and therefore eliminating owls from many places that they had been.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: On the other hand, we're continuing to alter habitats.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: So for instance, I mentioned the Imperial Valley, it used to be a desert, it's now an ag area with lots of owls.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: In northern Mexico, they have done something similar where there was a desert um environment, it's been altered.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure where they're getting their water, but it's been altered for agriculture, and now there are a lot more burrowing house down there.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: So although climate change is making our environment hotter, longer.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: And many species are moving north, right?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: If they can.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: We're actually finding burrowing elves, at least western burrowing elves, are moving south.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so they're we're losing them in Canada.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the Canadians are beside themselves about that.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: They're doing all kinds of things to try and keep burrowing elves in Canada.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but we're getting more of them in places that we're altering in in the south.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's because we're altering those habitats, not because it's warmer and they're they're liking it, but they're very capable of living in very hot, dry conditions.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've found them in the middle of the desert in Arizona, and I'm thinking I don't even like driving through this area, and there they'll be these burns just sitting outside doing brewing owl stuff.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what I'm gonna throw my email up here, which is Scott at naturally scott.com.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you've got questions or follow-up for me, um uh critiques on the on the show or questions about the show, please send them to me.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: I always answer.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've got questions for Lynn, send them to me.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: I will forward them to her.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you can learn more about burrowing owls.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Lynn, do me a favor, one last thing, if you would.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us something surprising or unusual about burrowing owls that you would like the audience to know.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I have I have two top ones, so let me try and get them both in there.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: We can let them both in there.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: The first one is that in in California, most of the burrowing breeding burrowing owls we have are resident.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: They stay here year-round and they don't migrate.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: But we do find, um, through research that I did with my colleagues, including my colleagues at Colorado State in the lab of Christian Ruy, um, that we get a lot of migratory burrowing owls in California from other parts of the range, in particular from British Columbia, Washington, and Oregon State.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: And they come here and they winter in California.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And we find them in all kinds of places where you couldn't couldn't find breeding owls, but they also winter with the breeding owls too.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then in this in the springtime, they go back north and breed in their breeding habitat.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I we we didn't know this about their migratory behavior that we were getting all these migratory birds.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: We suspected, but we did genomics on them and found out yes, we have migratory birds, we have resident birds.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the great things that we found is that sometimes some of those migratory birds will go, you know, it's pretty nice here.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm not gonna migrate.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: And they will stay with the breeding birds and breed with our resident birds.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so our genomics, and let me just say, genomics, there's so many technologies that are changing the face of wildlife.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Genomics have shown that some of those migratory birds have stayed, bred with the resident birds, and there are a lot of these hybrids between the migrants and the residents, which I thought is incredibly cool.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: That is very cool.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: That is super, super cool.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the other thing I wanted to mention is that burrowing owls are resident burrowing owls, and and again, I'm speaking from my research on western burrowing owls, they are highly attached to their breeding sites.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mentioned before that they will leave their breeding burrow in the winter, but they want to come back to the same burrow or right in the same area where they bred before, especially if they were successful.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Not only that, they want to come back with the same mate.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: They live around five to eight years, eight if they're really lucky.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and they want to stay with the same mate at the same site year after year, and the longer they stay at the same site, the same mate, the more successful they are with bringing off chips.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I just thought that's a great story.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: That is really cool.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: They're very good parents, and this just shows that we need to protect burrowing owl burrows where they are.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of like, can we move them here or move them there?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: Quite honestly, if you move them, you're sending them back to square one again with breeding.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, so it's very important that we keep burrows and burrowing owls in the places where they have bred with their with their mates.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well we will uh we'll see what we can do.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: We'll let some people know through this podcast.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I wanna I I wanna ask uh the audience, uh, you're you're watching this on Apple or Spotify or maybe on YouTube, if you are watching on YouTube, do me a favor and hit subscribe.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Every time you do, uh YouTube pushes a video out to more people.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: More people that tell the story and hear about habitat loss or death aside, some of these issues that aren't just pro and owl specific, but run the gamut.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's a better thing.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have ads on the show.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a money-making proposition, it's just uh for people who are interested in all things natural.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could do that, and maybe drop a comment or hit like, it'd be much appreciated.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Especially when we've had such a charming guest like Lynn.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: We definitely want to take advantage of that.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Lynn, thank you so much for being with us today.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate this.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not gonna be out for a couple of years, but uh, for those of you that are watching, I'm working on a book called Why We Love Owls.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've got 52 guests in there.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: And Lynn was gracious enough to be one of the guests, which is how we initially met.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um I hope that I'm able to meet you in person when I come on out to California.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for being with us.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: I would really love that.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Scott, for inviting me and for for all your great work, you know, in promoting the preservation of our beautiful natural world.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're very kind, thank you.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: I close every show the same way.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: I encourage everybody to get outside as often as you can.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Every time you do, you're gonna see something that is interesting or fascinating or calming um or different.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: And when you do get outside, make sure that you stay safe and stay curious.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Lynn, thank you for being here.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that you all have a spectacular day and tune in again next week.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Scott Harris.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: This is Naturally Scott.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: See you later.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: You've been listening to Naturally Scott with Scott Harris.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Naturally Scott is hosted by Scott Harris, produced by Justin Harris, directed and edited by Frank Sierra.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Follow us on our YouTube channel at Naturally Scott and Instagram at naturally Scott Harris.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: If this conversation resonated with you, please follow the show, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs to hear it.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Naturally Scott thanks you for viewing and listening to this podcast.