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Never Again Was Never A Guarantee w/Tariq Khan · Hold Your Ground

• joe: What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Hold Your Ground the Podcast, where you get working class culture without the bullshit. Before we get into today's conversation, we want to recognize the passing of Dolores Huerta. As a labor organizer and civil rights activist, she dedicated her life to fighting for working people and standing up for the oppressed. Her legacy reminds us that change doesn't come by asking for it nicely. It comes when people stand together and refuse to back down. Rest in power to Dolores. Today, we're joined by former Yale scholar and author of The Republic Shall Be Kept Clean How Settler Colonial Violence Shaped Anti Left Repression, Tarek Khan. We're going to talk about the rise of fascism both at home and around the world, the history behind it, why it continues to gain ground, and what it means for those of us determined to oppose it. Because understanding how we got here is integral to figuring out where we go next. As Dolores West Tariq Khan (he/him): All right, thanks for having me on. I'm doing fine. Luis: Great. well, let's get right into it. do you think that we're going to vote our way out of fascism next week? Tariq Khan (he/him): if only it were so easy. but I mean, I'm sure you all are aware, right? There are there are limits to what we can achieve through the electoral system. now I'm not one of these people who says, Well, it's all bullshit, so just don't even engage with it. We have to engage with it 'cause it exists and it and it does make real material differences. But when we're talking about fascism, like how are we gonna get out of fascism just by voting for the same representatives of the capitalist class, the same people who sort of stand for genocide? I mean, we're gonna vote for the pro-genocide Democrats to defeat the pro-genocide Republicans. now there are differences between the Democrats and Republicans, but right, like for those of us who can s look sort of at the historical foundations of this system. the the real meat of what we can achieve is gonna be from outside and against the system, from below. Sort of people building power independent of politicians and these major institutions that we're told are the the things that we have to work for to achieve change. joe: With that, you're talking about the the systems, the you know, colleges, economic systems, political systems. What does the and being that you're a former Yale lecturer, I I would like to ask you to that, what does the political attack on teaching race, colonialism, and radical history tell us about the relationship between knowledge and power? And can a university generally defend academic freedom while also making concessions to political pressure and wealthy donors? Tariq Khan (he/him): I've I've been pretty disappointed with how easily some of our major universities have just kinda rolled over to you know, in the face of the Trump administration's attacks. Like they didn't even put up a fight. Columbia University sort of set the tone with just its ultim just total cowardice, in the face of some of these attacks. And I think in the minds of some of these administrators, They thought, well, if we if we cooperate, we give them a little, they'll back off. And that's not how fascists operate. You give them an inch, they say, we can get something from these people. And they push and push more. they don't see like you know, cooperation as a sign of like, they want to be reasonable, let's we'll be reasonable too. They see it as a sign of weakness. And so in the face of these kinds of attacks, universities have to be strong and say no to everything. Don't treat a single one of their demands as reasonable. you know, Yale has been kind of pretending to to sort of be outside of all of that, but you know, we know the Yale leaders have been kind of behind the scenes quietly sort of making compromises, you know, with these with these Trump thugs. they've they've let go of dozens of of lecturers, they they cut services for low income students. and as they're getting rid of lecturers, especially people who teach sort of critical kinds of subjects, who you teach about racism and colonialism and gender and and you know, all of those things that that kind of the right sees as as the evils that are being taught at the university. As they're getting, cutting all of those kinds of things. They are hiring David Brooks, you know, this this right wing clown, and you know, paying him something like a million dollars a year, paying his research assistant something like a hundred thousand dollars a year, you know, spending way more on this guy who's in the Epstein files than than they spend on like any actual like serious scholars. and just to you know remind you all of who David Brooks was, this is a guy who wrote an article saying, we're talking too much about the Epstein Files, we should just stop talking about this, it's a distraction. And a few months later, it comes out that he's in multiple photos in the Epstein files. So here he is preemptively like trying to tell people not to care about this thing that he is part of. You know, he's part of that class of people. And you know I think institutions like Yale are bringing guys on hi like him on to show the administration that look we have what do they call it? intellectual diversity, meaning we have conservatives also and they think that's gonna make them back off, but it's not. It's just gonna make the rights say, Look, what we're doing is working. Let's keep on pushing. But you it's not gonna be the administration that is gonna be our line of defense against that. It's gonna be students, staff and faculty. And in in places where we where you know we have strong student movements where we have unions, labor unions for for staff and and non tenure track faculty, it's harder for administrations to push some of these kinds of like right wing policies. Not to say it's impossible, but there's there's more trouble that they have to put up with to get away with than in a place like Yale where there's no non tenure track faculty union they can get away with a lot more. joe: the the scary thing with that, in my mind when you talk about that is so you know, it's gonna take the the students, the teachers, the faculty to to stand up against that. But as we get more and more of these right wing asshats, for lack of a better term, into positions of academic power, I I think the more and more revisionist history we you know, our young people are taught. So I can see that being this weird slope where we start losing the students because they're not actually learning the past and how it went, you know. I mean a prime example of that reh revisionist history thing was in the United States, we generally learn about fascism as something that happened in Europe during like the 30s and 40s, and that America was the good guys that stepped in and saved the day from old Hitler when, I mean, in reality we had a Nazi party here in the United States. I mean, that was the largest gathering at Madison's Square Gardens ever was, you know, the American Nazi, what I forget exactly what they were called. you know, it's it's it's it's wild to me that the propaganda. For those of us who pay attention to history, we can see that as propaganda, but it is scary as you get more and more radical right wingers into positions, like I said, of academic power, where you start getting that revisionist history. So I guess I don't know, being with your specialty, sorry, I'm trying to like work in the questions that I've written down here and they're kind of flowing good for it, but how did American racism, eugenics, and settler colonialism influence the the development of Eurofascism? And you know, what historical connections should people be aware of and and understand? Tariq Khan (he/him): Mm-hmm. Yeah, that that's a great question. 'cause that that's one of the sort of liberal lies we tell is that fascism was some sort of a break from Western democratic traditions. when it's it's actually anti colonial scholars, especially the black radical tradition, indigenous resistance, have been saying From very early on, as soon as fascism's the word fascism was becoming in use, there were anti colonial thinkers saying that this is an extension of of European imperialism, of Western imperialism, of colonialism. And it wasn't just sort of the critics of fascism who were saying that, but the fascists themselves were telling us that yeah, we're We're getting these ideas. F look at the United States. Look what they did to the indigenous populations. Look what they are doing to the black populations. look at Jim Crow. you know, Hitler himself you know, famously talked about US Jim Crow segregation and eugenics. as inspiring his ideas about what they should be doing in Germany. They're looking to the United States. the the the American Eugenics Society is based right here in in New Haven where I am Yale University was kind of like the center of the global eugenics movement where it had the leading eugenics scholars in the world working from the Institute of Human Relations which is now what what the medical school of medicine is. but if you look at the school of medicine on at the front of it it says the Institute of Human Relations. And that was started by a eugenicist and the psychologist, President Angel who was pres be later became president of Yale. But he his idea was we're gonna bring the leading psychologists and anthropologists, and you know different social scientists. And we're gonna basically do eugenics research and they were using people in Puerto Rico as a labs for their eugenics programs and just totally screwing up people's lives and abusing people, and traumati you know, you know, causing trauma that still exists into the present day. and that, you know, sort of came out of of places like Yale University and Harvard and you know these these institutions that we're told are, the smartest people in the world. but but there's actually letters between the American eugenics society and s and representatives of the Nazi Party and and the Nazis are praising the American eugenicists saying, you know, we we're really inspired by the work you're doing and basically like telling them what a great job they're doing and how much they're learning. th and so it's not just the you have people like Amy Cesare and these scholars who are telling us that this is rooted in in these other institutions that are, long predate fascism. but the fascists themselves are saying, Yeah, we're l we're looking to the United States. Hitler used phrases like he looked at the the s the so called taming of the wild west in the United States and he said, here in Germany we we're gonna tame the Wild East. And he used that kind of language directly drawing from the the y the language of United States settler colonialism and so it's not like Un the United States is n is becoming like the Nazis, but it's that the Nazis were like the United States. It was the other way around. Copy: Yeah. Luis: Yeah, absolutely. I w do you mind if I switch gears a little bit, Joe, for a minute? what's it gonna take for us to win? Like a and and what I mean by that is as Joe and Coppy know, while being an American leftist, I also criticize the American left as short term, not far sighted, not disciplined, and that We pick up causes and then drop them, right? We picked up ICE in two thousand and eighteen. I was a part of that. dropped it. Then we went to trans rights, we dropped that. Then we went to the Gaza and the Palestinian rights, and we saw that that was a marathon and that we were all c you know, guilty of supporting genocide. So we quickly dropped that. And we went back to ICE again and now we're quiet about that again. What's it gonna take for us to win? Tariq Khan (he/him): I I I might have a little bit more charitable view than than you might, although I you know, I've experienced things differently than you. just 'cause I see so many people who are just sincere people who are trying. and and it's just everyone just can't do everything and yet we're in these constant states of emergency where we have to sort of constantly be responding to this and that and like ICE is in this neighborhood, we gotta do that. And then it's like, now we got this politician who's like going after trans kids and we gotta go for that. and and people are sorta just running around like running, you know, running themselves ragged trying to respond to all of these emergencies. and and you know, some and oftentimes we have to respond to those emergencies. We can't just like let ice come into our neighborhood and st you know, and snatch people, So it's it's it's kind of a a hard question, but in terms of, you know, what's it gonna take to win? Like I don't think anybody like has the perfect blueprint for that. In fact I'm very suspicious if you know, any time you have like some socialist party or something that's like this is the way, I'm immediately like feel like you're in a cult. Luis: Yeah, anybody who says Copy: Yeah. Luis: they have the anyone who says they have the answers clearly does not have the answers right now. Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): Right, but but Copy: I'm learning every fucking day. So like that that's the biggest thing is for me it's it's critical thinking skills and if you're gonna sit there and say you have all the answers, no, you stay the fuck over there. Tariq Khan (he/him): Uh-huh. But I but I think things that that we know do work is it's just ordinary, regular working class people just working together. And s if and if we can build s sort of permanent or even just semi permanent in s like local institutions and things like that, th those can also like play a role and become really important like organizing centers and things that. But really it's just ordinary people working together, which is the very sort of broad, it's almost like a cop out answer, but part of that is just 'cause like I don't know. Like Luis: No, Tariq Khan (he/him): I'm I'm also like, you know, sort of running around here and there. Luis: No, i i it's it's it's not a cop out answer at all. It's it it's an honest answer, right? And it's one I appreciate. the three of us, we come from Portland, right? We come from Portland, Oregon. And you know, we come from Little Beirut, so yeah, I I I I appreciate the answer. And yeah, I'm a I'm a little disheartened in my fellow leftists, right? I do believe that Democrats, as we said earlier, that Democrats and Republicans are the same side of the same coin to me, right? As an indigenous human being in this country, they're exactly the same. Minute differences. and so I'm wondering, you know, when are brown girls and brown kids gonna stop being put in cages and sexually assaulted by Leos? When when are is the American left gonna actually For me, care and not be performative. For example, I find no hope and no joy in the No Kings protests, right? I I I I don't even have hope in the American youth like I do in the European youth, because they were educated differently, right? Like, I I don't think I would ever see American kids out in the streets fighting for better schooling. So I'm just kind of wondering, like. I think I'm the I'm the Debbie Downer of the three of us. where w w when Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. Copy: Yeah. Luis: are we gonna start to get some of those blows back? I'm tired of us rope doping for lack of a better phrase. joe: Well, you're not you're not just the Debbie Downer. Sorry, I I just want to jump in on that real quick, right? you're not the Debbie Downer there. The left needs to do better, and we really need to do better with Copy: Yeah. joe: messaging going forward, right? Because it's going to take more than the people who view themselves as the quote unquote left to get out of this. One of the things I've said continually with used two, is that, you know, Donald Trump and this regime, it is a problem. It's not the problem. it it they are a problem. you know, I think the bigger problem here is that society buys into the fact that governments continually classify anti-fascism as being inherently violent, while the violence of the political and economic systems That we oppose are treated as fucking normal. You know what I mean? It's just, that's just water under the bridge. It's all this, you know, fucking brown people being locked up and thrown in cages, fucking dragged off the street. Go on about your life. we're gonna fucking send our tax callers to blow up some brown kids on the other side of the world. is what it is. Luis: But it's not only that, but it's within the move, the the quote unquote movement itself that if you are a person of color and you disagree with your white overlords in this movement, you can get crucified. Right? We've all seen examples of that. I mean, know the three of us have. We come from fucking Portland for Christ's sakes, right? Like we've seen it happen that if you don't get in line and step with the party, you get fucking whatever, whatever. And so I'm just like When are we gonna win? And I think that's a great question that you had, Joe. Y joe: Well, that that's it, right? so long as society judges resistance to oppression harsher than the oppression itself, we're gonna stay in this cycle. There's no coming out Copy: Yeah. joe: of it. Tariq Khan (he/him): Mm. Yeah. No, I was Luis: I often say you g I'm sorry, go ahead. I didn't mean good. Tariq Khan (he/him): just gonna say, th in in terms of like how we organize, how we resist, I I think it's very important not to see sort of like groups in power as sort of our reference group who we're trying to sway. Like we're not trying to change their minds, we're not trying to do something in a way that they would approve of. No matter what we do, no matter how nonviolent it is, they're gonna call it violence. and they're gonna make it out to be extremist. and we just have to not care about that and think in terms of like actually like what builds power. and and also like n like i at least in terms of how I've how I am involved in things, I don't think of in terms of like Okay, who's the left and I'm gonna like these are the leftists, I'm gonna work with the left, to do this stuff, I I think in terms of okay, who who do I work with? Who do I live around? Who is in the same kind of material position that I'm in? and working like on that basis. So for example, like I've been doing a lot of like community defense against ICE. and I I would I would say that like a good number of the folks I'm working with, like they don't probably think of themselves in terms of the left. They just see themselves as regular people who are trying to defend their neighbors. and like so it I've heard, you know, a phrase I certainly didn't come up with this phrase, but you've all probably heard it where it's like look, don't look to the left, look to the class. Shilyn Rodriguez gave a really great talk here in in New Haven, the artist, who's been, you know, attacked relentlessly by the by the right and by the New York Post and stuff like that. But she gave a great talk looking at like these apartment buildings in the Bronx and where you have all of these different sort of like racial and ethnic and national groups sort of living in the same kind of apartment buildings and you might have like this Bangladeshi family and next door to this like African Caribbean family. and and they don't trust each other. and and you know, have this like Latino family down the hall and like people aren't talking to each other or really trust each other, but then something happens like the heat goes out. And now everybody's out in the hall. Like, is your heat working? No, my heat's not working. Now they're talking to each other because they have this shared material experience. And so she talked about like this this common denominator that people organize around. And and I I kind of think of it like that, but not just in the one building, but in terms of like, you know, the for me it's more like the region where I live, but like what's a common denominator? and like I've like there's plenty of like groups that pose as r the sort of a revolutionary left that like I I don't even talk to them 'cause they're not the ones doing The actual on the ground solidarity Luis: Right, yeah. Copy: Right. Tariq Khan (he/him): work. And so it's like who's you know, it's like anyway, thinking in like those terms I guess, rather than like, I gotta work with the li I learned that early on where I was like, you know, like I how the pointlessness of like Trying to connect people who consider themselves to be the left or radicals or revolutionary and then and just instead thinking of who are my actual people who are in my same boat that I live around and work around or play around? Luis: Exactly. I love that message. And yeah, that's that's exactly what it's about right there. I often say that my community are the people that I live around, my apartment building, my small little town, my friends, not this greater leftist community. You know, just as an indigenous man who's looking around and seeing things, I get bummed, right? like I've often said that, you know, the 2020 protests were about COVID and not necessarily black lives, because had they been about black lives and had and if black lives really did matter in the United States, we would be out in the streets right now for a one-year-old baby. Right? We would be out in the streets right now for a man who disappeared on July fourth. Right? But instead we have an attorney general who said that force was appropriate action against the one year old. and we have, well, some other black kid just came up missing. So yeah, I'm a I'm I'm I'm a little heated at this point in the game. because you know, we sa the the Democrats were a week away from everybody celebrating this blue wave. and then in January I saw the Democrats give away my healthcare. Copy: Well, and that's that's Luis: So Copy: one thing that I did notice here. And Luis and I were probably on the without knowing on the on the ground at the same time during the twenty twenty protest. And the one thing I saw a lot of is white motherfuckers like me not listening to the actual people that are being affected and interjecting their own bullshit into the the movement. And I and I despise that that white people won't listen dis this Close their mouth a little bit and listen to the communities that are actually affected and ask them. It's really simple to ask them what you can do for the they what they need for help. Luis: We do live like and Joe says so we just so sir, we live in a very performative place. right? Like Copy: Yeah. Luis: we we we live where white liberal performance politics is at its peak and this is his homeland, right? It it's it emanates here. And as Joe often says, you know, Joe doesn't call himself an ally, he doesn't call himself an accomplice, right? Because He's in the streets and the people in affected communities know who to reach out to. Joe doesn't have to puff himself up like I'm an ally, I'm an accomplice, 'cause we Tariq Khan (he/him): Right. Yeah. Luis: know who to call. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. Yeah, I remember joe: Word. Tariq Khan (he/him): back when what was it, Indigenous Action Media put out that zine, accomplices not allies, as sort of an intervention and this kind of performative kind of allyship sort of thing. And and after that a bunch of people just started calling themselves accomplices, but were doing the exact same thing, just using the word accomplice instead of ally. but i if you're really in solidarity with your with folks that you're not calling yourself anything. You don't have to. They're not calling you anything. Like you know, like I'm not Copy: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. That is joe: Well, that's Copy: a former Yale professor saying that to you folks that want to sit there and fucking hack on us when we say shit like this. Eat shit. Luis: Mm-hmm. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah, and I mean it's it's being you know, whatever you want whatever Copy: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I had to go there. Tariq Khan (he/him): whatever term you want to use, whether like I don't care what term people wanna use, whether you wanna be call it an ally or an accomplice or or being in solidarity or whatever, I don't care what the language is, but like it's something you do. It's not an identity that you are. Luis: It's a verb. joe: So straight up Copy: Ha ha. joe: here's the thing. Whatever the term is, I don't think that it's incumbent upon a person to call themselves that. Right? Like you said, it's action. So like I don't need to go, well, I'm this or I'm that, because like Louise said, the people in my community know that they can call me when they need to for virtually whatever. You know what I mean? Copy: Anything. joe: So like I don't need that title to feel fucking, ooh, I'm important. It's it it's it's weird white knight fucking posturing bullshit, in my opinion. Know it's it's weird. And I do want to touch on what you said earlier when you're talking about some the revolutionary leftists. Being I feel like this plays into it as well, right? you don't even talk to them, I'm not with it either. Because at the end of the day, I view so many people that are predominantly fucking mayonnaise skinned fucking nerds. Sorry, I curse a lot by the way. you know, that Copy: Yeah, so I. joe: are super revolutionary and we're gonna do this and we're gonna, you know, have our civil war and put people On the wall and this, that, and the other. Like you are talking about killing the fucking working man, your fellow working man here. That really, while yes, there are some very misguided notions among the working class. that is who, in my mind, at least the left was here to fucking protect and uphold, is the working class, is the impoverished, is the you know, it just it doesn't make sense to me to sit there and be like, we're gonna kill everybody. And to me, that is no different than the MAGA people who are like, We're having our civil war, and this, that. The other, right? and with that, I want to say too is that it's also very interesting to me that this is predominantly people who have never been in a physical altercation in their lives ever and couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. And as somebody Copy: Yeah. joe: who has grown up a brawler, like I can tell pretty quick off if somebody's about their shit and can throw down, right? And also, I'll say this: like, I've been part of the state problem, right? I was an infantryman in the United States Army who's been. Been deployed for really more time than I would like to fucking remember, so in seeing the atrocities of war firsthand, the innocent lives that are affected and lost, I definitely don't I don't want to see that anywhere, especially in my own home where the people who I love and care about on a daily basis have to experience the fucking horrors. of war and killing people and doing all this shit and this weird idolization of it of well I'm a revolutionary so it's all great like get the fuck out of here just get the fuck out of here sorry Luis: Yeah. Copy: Yeah. Well, anybody that anybody that glorifies war, I myself was in the infantry as well. And the last thing that I ever want to have my family ever have to witness is me turn that switch. And Luis: I I Copy: I don't like that person. It is a it's not something you want to glorify. There there is nothing glorious about ending somebody's life or having your life be threatened or your friends die. And Luis: I Copy: It's it's just a mind blowing thing to watch these gravy seals try to act like they're gonna change Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. Copy: the fucking world by buying body armor and a weapon they have no idea what the fuck to do with. Luis: The three of us come from the hood, right? Whether it's white hoods, brown hoods, we come from the ghetto. And the ghetto has enough violence. You you know what I'm saying? Don't don't get any of us twisted. We're we're all when it's time, it's time. But I don't I I don't wanna hurt anybody. You know, like like my reaction, I've been on video like like I go hurt somebody, I go cry. Like I literally go, like I have to shake that shit out. but I I think the problem that I have with the left, and like we can talk about ice defense for a minute, is that at least here in my community, we haven't learned, right? So I often say the worst thing that I've ever done as an activist was I was part of the Occupy ICE movement. I was I was we'll call myself a an influential person. Whatever, bro, I was behind that shit, okay? And it's The worst thing I've ever done. I got we got people deported. Literally we've got people deported. Nothing came of that except people went to jail and got deported. Right? And it went across the country and some guy ended up I don't believe that that gentleman attacked ICE. I believe that that was a suicide by cop attempt. and I can't even think of his name up in Tacoma right now. 'cause you don't go attack a gas tank. So I'm wondering do Americans in your opinion have to be willing is the next step to start to hide people like the Jews in World War II? Is that is that the next step in in in community defense or because I don't I I've never in my experience I've never seen a deportation stop. I've seen buses temporarily halted. But I'm like, what like even in those situations, what are we thinking? Because if we board those buses, right? You're gonna catch charges, maybe lose your life. You're gonna go to jail for a long time for people you don't know. And then if you happen to get those people off the bus, what do you do with them? Do you just let them go Copy: Yeah. Luis: like animals? Okay, go, you're free. And where do they go to? What's the what's in your opinion, not that what's happening is bad or anything, I'm not but what's our next step? How do we actually stop this? Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah, there's I think there there can be moments and and I I don't know everything that's going on in Portland. I'm I've been on the East Coast. you know, I'm from from the East Coast. I've lived on the East Coast most of my life. So it's a very different kind of situation out here. I have neighbors who are Trump supporters, like it's it's not like the The left isn't the most annoying thing to me. I guess the Trump people who are like I see every day in my everyday interactions are like much more of a pressing concern to me than like some leftists who are are kind of wrong headed in how they're going about things. as opposed to if in a place like Portland where you have a very different sort of social kind of landscape. but there there can sometimes be a tendency of for folks to want to be saviors and we're gonna we're gonna like save these people from ice kind of a thing. And it it's that that's it's it's that's like totally wrong kind of way of going about things. Like the like the resistance to ice has to be led by the people who are targeted by ice. And those of us who aren't targeted by ice, it's we're following their cue and and and approaching things in a very humble a way. I I remember we had a thing back when I was living in in Illinois, and I was targeting this this community, you know, a lot of undocumented people lived in this kind of trailer community. And a bunch of very well-meaning people who were not from that community were like, let's go have a rally in that community, and everybody goes out there. And then of course folks there were like Please don't do like please go. you're Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): bringing a bunch of attention onto our community that we don't want. We know your heart is in the right place, but this is actually gonna bring more heat down on us. Right? So people sometimes Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): are well meaning, but they because they're not listening to the people who they think that they're, you know, because of that savior thing, they're they're not following the lead of the people who are most targeted. And so it has to be an approach with humility. And I think a lot of the the most effective anti ice work that I'm seeing isn't getting to a point where you're facing off against ice officers. When you're at that point, i it it's almost like we've already lost. but it's this very c kinda quiet, humble, kind of behind the scenes stuff that that we're doing because we're following the lead of the people who are most affected and who are most targeted by IC. And like like one of the like most important things I think we're doing in the this moment is just helping people because at least where I live, ICE is the main place they're snatching people is from the around the courthouses. They're just kind of prowling around and trying to basically racially profile people going in and out of court. They're Illin Connecticut has kind of made a law that ICE can't go inside courthouses. Doesn't mean they'll listen to that law, but so far they've been mostly staying outside. but like lot of undocumented people they have a court date. Maybe it's for some something that's not related to immigration, some traffic, minor traffic violation. But going to court, if they don't go to court now they have a warrant out for if they show up to court they could get picked up by ice. And so like sort of this quiet, humble, unassuming. We're not going out there with signs or we don't look like we're even, you know, activists or anything, but we're just helping people get in and out of their court dates without Ice picking up or, know, without even having a confrontation with ice. Luis: That's beautiful. Tariq Khan (he/him): right, like and so you know, I I but I I think a lot of the really important stuff we're gonna do isn't this badass militant, you know, there are moments when we just you gotta fight fascists. like the only thing they listen to is just straight up power and overpowering them and we do have to have the ability to do that. But I I think I think that's a s a small portion of what and of what we need to be doing. And I think the majority of the kind of work that we need to be doing is quiet, humble, behind the scenes. It's nothing that anyone is gonna become a star over or that you're gonna v get some award about or put on your resume or s anything like that. but like that I think is is is where it's at. And and your your question of do we need to be hiding people, I mean that is going on. There are people who actually Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): do have to hide people. We We have that thing happening, but that's not again, that's not the sort of thing that anybody should be like, putting on social media. Here's our underground Copy: Right, yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): railroad network, you just advertising to the Luis: I'm hiding Juan in my basement. Give me money. Copy: Yeah. Yeah. joe: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. But I I think like a a lot of humility. This is one of the biggest pieces of like a lot of times, you know, students would would ask student organizers would, you know, to have me, you know, come and talk and they'd ask for like advice and My biggest piece of advice to students is always just be a person. just be your normal self. Whatever that is. Everyone's normal self is different, but be your normal self. Don't try to be the leader. Don't try to be some superhero or savior. Don't try to push some script that you think is how activists are supposed to talk. Just be your own normal self. Be a person. Be humble. L especially if you're working with a community that isn't you aren't a part of, don't talk a lot. Listen more. And don't try to be like, we should do this and that. But like Luis: Follow the three L's. Look, listen, and learn. Tariq Khan (he/him): Right. You Copy: Well, and Tariq Khan (he/him): know. Copy: I i I've got, there's a my personal opinion when it comes to certain things, l let's take gun violence as is a particular one, you know, take the Ben massacre is what I'm gonna call it. You know, I was involved in a shooting myself in in a high school when I was growing up. And I recently made a video talking about like we shouldn't be making this a politicized thing the day of. We should let the families have some time to grieve and without having Everybody take up the the the lance for them. They don't need that. They need some fucking empathy and compassion. And my stance on it is there we've had too much talk. Like I'm my my shooting was the Thurston High School shooting in 1998. How many school shootings happened before that? And everybody wants, you know, not trying to take away from any school shooting at all, but everybody wants to just talk about Columbine on to present. And it's a it's been a a d fucking problem since God what the seventies, sixties? And we're my per I I don't like having conversations about it anymore. Something needs to be done. We've been having conversations for so fucking long that it's ridiculous at this point that we're still having to have them is why I say that. Luis: I I I I don't know. Yeah, the school shootings were going on when I was growing up in the eighties and nineties. Except here's the Copy: Yeah. Luis: thing. My communities, we got Grammys and Oscars for telling our stories. We didn't get sympathies, bro. Like Copy: Yeah. Luis: a and I and I mean drive bys, right? Like, bro, we got movies. We didn't get therapists. Copy: Yeah. joe: Yeah, boys in the hood, blood in, blood out, colors, if I can name it. Luis: Fucking c we we got Copy: Right. Luis: we got movies, we got therapists, right? We like to the point where now we're now we we celebrate people like ice cube and NWA and I'm not here to take away from them, but those dudes rapped about fucking harming their community, right? That's what fucking society fucking accepted from us. Like people that rapped about harming each other. It's fucking whacked. I'm sorry. joe: So Copy: Yeah, no, I I I definitely agree with that a hundred percent that everybody it it's one of those things that gun violence should be it shouldn't be even a question anymore. And that's across the board. And Luis said it best, there there's so many school shootings in black brown communities that nobody fucking talks about. joe: Word. So I I I do wanna get back to what Tarek was saying here though, when he was talking about having you know, there are times obviously when you need to, you know, oppose fascism with force, but that most of the time it's that unglamorous humanitarian work behind the scenes type shit. I I I appreciate that you brought that up because to me that is showing anti fascism as An organized resistance. with a net positive instead of having it as an aesthetic, which I think is is what so many people view, especially with the rise of anti-fascism. I'm doing air quotes for those of you who aren't watching the video, on social media and whatnot, right? And as goofy as it seems to me as a middle-aged man to talk about social media, I think that it's something that is a tool that has the ability to be used, For a lot of good, but I don't see it being wielded in that way currently, right? I see it where, like you said, people wanna be that star. Everybody wants to be the leader, everybody wants to be that person that's gonna go down in history. And I think that self indulged thought overshadows the actual tenets of being an anti-fascism or an anti-fascist in a in a lot of instances where we have people that are traveling all around the country on their viewers' dime essentially because they're getting paid Copy: Yeah. joe: in g in the forms of donations or from social media clicks. They go, they show up to these protests, they cause a bunch of controversy, they get their clip and they're like, all right, deuces, we're out. You Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. joe: know? we see it happen all the time. I get calls from all over the country. from friends and and activists that are watching this happen and they're going, yo, like I know that you had a presence on like the TikTok, for instance, at one point and that you talk to these fools. What the fuck are they doing? And I'm like, I d I don't know. I can talk to them and see what the fuck they're doing. so I I think that, you Copy: And a contract. joe: know Yeah, I think that it it's it's it's important for people to realize that being an anti fascist and making a difference isn't all about getting your name in a history book, man. Tariq Khan (he/him): Right. joe: It's about making sure that people are safe. Tariq Khan (he/him): Uhhuh. Yeah, and I the the the more you can do without anybody knowing your name that's is mo more often than not, that's probably the better. Luis: Joe and sorry, I was just gonna say Joe and I often say that the greatest activists are the people whose names you will never know. Right? The the the that the people you will never ever assume, think, know, have any knowledge of, those those are some of the greatest people. Copy: Well and that's that's a I sorry, go ahead. Tariq Khan (he/him): Right. Yeah, Well no, please go ahead, copy. Copy: I was gonna say that, you know, that's the thing that, you know, like Joe was saying, everybody wants to be the great hero. What people don't realize is the the heroes that we hear about from World War II, like the Oscar Schindlers, the the I forget the gentleman's name, the British gentleman, like they did that BBC where all the children that he saved, you know, nobody heard about that at the time because they didn't want the fucking attention. It wasn't until After and it was many years after that's when you get to hear about these folks and the stories come out about what they did. It's not in that fucking moment where they're the hero. Tariq Khan (he/him): Uhhuh. And I I think that's one of the things that makes me able to kind of stay hopeful in times like this is just I I'm seeing so many people who are just kind of humbly, quietly doing really good work, building really good solidarity, defending the community and you never see those folks on social media. They you know, you know, I have I have, senior citizens who who, you know, aren't even r on a lot of social media who are out there doing a lot of this work in just really humble kinds of ways. and you know, and Joe and Copia and you both both of you are veterans, and you know, I'm also a veteran. I don't talk about it a lot. But you know, I was I went straight out of high school, you know, into the the air force and was a lot of those experiences is what kind of radicalized me. It wasn't I Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): I I I read Marx or something and I got radical or I went to college and and you know leftist professor radicalized me like that doesn't really happen. But it was just the experience of seeing how messed up this military machine is. That like I came out I immediately got involved in like anti war, and anti imperialist kinds of organizing. and and copy and Joe, you're probably aware like you know, veterans are very like you know, a p politically diverse group. You know, there are guys who are all ate up and like gung ho about stuff still but but I I like I've never hear as much bitter criticism of militarism and and imperialism as I do when I'm among veterans. who've gone through that system and have learned the hard way. l a lot of us from working class backgrounds, we didn't know what we were getting into. But we didn't have the education to understand how the system worked. And it was just like, here's a thing you can do and not have to be on Copy: Well that's Tariq Khan (he/him): the street, you know. sorry, go ahead. Copy: Well, it's because they're predatory. a lot of people don't fucking realize that. Well, especially on the left. Joe and I've had these conversations with people where they assume that we're pro war and all this stuff. And it's like, no, that's not at all. You need to realize that the military, the US government, preys upon the fucking poor. It doesn't matter what the race is. They prey upon the poor with this, here's free college. Well, no, it's not completely free. You gotta pay it. all everybody thinks you get all your free this free shit and it's not free. We still have to pay for it, and we're still fucking Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. Copy: poor working class people. And that's what people need to understand is that there's a lot of us veterans that, like you said, are very, very anti establishment now because of living in it. joe: Well as aside from that Aside from that copy about having to pay for shit and being, still impoverished basically while you're in the military. you know, I I do want to hit on that fact a bit more though, that the military, the United States government, they do, they prey on impoverished and underprivileged communities. It gives people a way out of a circular rut that they're in. where so many people will sit there and watch, like, okay, cool, I got my fucking, you know, this this older generation. I'm watching my boys over here go to prison. I'm watching my boys over here get killed in the fucking street or fucking the shit beat out of them by the cops. Like I don't necessarily want this. Like I would like a way to fucking break out. And for a lot of people, that is the only feasible, seeable way to get out of that situation. And the fucking government knows that, right? Like straight up, this is Capitalism 101. you you can't have capitalism without having oppressed people. And when you have oppressed people, you go, well, let's give them a fucking crumb to get out of here. They can go do our bidding somewhere else and become part of this state violence, right? So like Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. joe: with a lot of people that are coming from impoverished, underprivileged, undereducated societies, communities, that is their fucking way out. and up. And quite frankly, I think the people who criticize that do so from a pre place of privilege where they've never had to fucking worry about that. Right? Tariq Khan (he/him): Mm-hmm. joe: that that's what I seem to see happen so many times. rather not, well, I would never do that. And everybody wants to talk about how it's weird, right? Because amongst the left, it it's like this badge of honor to cosplay who grew up poorer or worse. I come Tariq Khan (he/him): Supposed to joe: from this, that like, nah, dude, I'm sorry. But if you've never had to actually think about maybe I need to join the fucking army to get out of here, like you didn't grow up that fucking poor and impoverished. Straight up. Like I I maybe that's Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah, no. joe: wrong of me to say that. But to what you were saying, Tarek, I appreciate that shit as well when you're saying that you gained your you know your viewpoints from real life experience. I think that means so much more than somebody who did go read some marks and go, I'm this now and you're people who do that theory is great right it's it's fucking great but at the end the day if all you do is read theory and you've done nothing in the real world you're not a revolutionary you're not Billy you're a fucking you're a dweeb with a book club which there's nothing wrong with that there's nothing wrong with that right but you need to recognize that and maybe let the people who have real world experience you know lead the way when it comes time to doing shit in the street when you actually venture out of your fucking house and away from the book and go to do some action. I don't know. I have a traumatic brain injury. Like my brain was shifted Copy: Ha ha ha. joe: inside my skull and my brain goes into weird places. That's why I write so much shit down. Luis: No, dude, you're you're you're not wrong. And it's i it it it Copy: You're right on point. Luis: it's what we talk about all the time, right? You're not wrong. We talk about these cosplaying people all the time. and you know, like I said, I'm trying to get not be poor, bro. I come from poverty. You you you know what I'm saying? I come from a community joe: Yeah. Luis: where fucking I was nine years old with fucking when I first got cuffs put on me. Right, by a police officer. My I my cousin was seven. We got arrested together, right? and and it's like we say, I I'm not here to go back to an Obama period. And that's probably really why I scare people a lot, right? 'Cause I'm here for the ultimate utter destruction of the state. And whoever if you support the state in any way, you're part of it, as far as I'm concerned. Right? Speaking for me for an individual because I'm tired of seeing my people die in the streets. I'm tired of seeing my people in the cages. I'm tired of seeing fucking our people get fucking raped by police officers, right? And nobody gives a shit. Right? That fucking we saw at the beginning of the year, like Renee Good and Alex Pradi rest in peace, right? But fucking These democratic white people came out and said, Please stop shooting white people. And the regime heard them. But they didn't say, stop shooting all of us, right? They didn't say brown lives matter, black lives matter, because we're still getting killed. We're still getting deported. We still live in a country where here in Los Angeles I know that you can be stopped, questioned, and detained indefinitely based on the language that you speak. I I I I I need it all to end. So Joe, you're not being ridiculous because until these cosplayers get the fuck out of the way for some of us, I I'm I'm stuck doing this. Not that this Copy: Yeah. Luis: is bad, but you like we talk about all this the same time, right? I think out of the three of us, two of us are trying to make plans to leave. joe: Yeah. Copy: Yeah. and Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah, and and I'll I'll say like for for folks who you know who really sincerely want to be involved in like solidarity and anti fascist, you know, and and fighting against, you know, this this whole sort of intertwined systems that that we're all sort of living under. it we're not only gonna be working with like people who are like some kind of pure leftist, when I was in Illinois, we were doing a lot with formerly incarcerated people. a lot of a lot of those guys had attitudes that would not play well in a leftist meeting. And Yeah. And it Yeah. And it wasn't Luis: We talk about that all the time, sir. We talk about that all the time. Tariq Khan (he/him): that you ignore it or just you know, it's not like if somebody has some transphobic attitude or something that you'd be like, well it's okay. He comes from, you know, the streets or whatever. Copy: Right. Tariq Khan (he/him): It's like Luis: You educate. Tariq Khan (he/him): We're gonna address it but it's not gonna be in a way that's about shaming someone or or just being like you're not welcome here but it's it's like doing stuff in a way that like is is about bringing us all kind of like to a a sort of higher plane together and and not like having this kind of cult of of purity or something like that. Luis: Th I I I I gotta say I I appreciate what you just said right now because so here's the thing. Joe Copy and I talk a lot about Yo, dude, I come from a community where the word bitch is used and it means something different, right? And Copy: Right. Luis: and and you have to slowly teach and educate, not just fucking condemn, squash, because we push the American left pushes a lot of natural allies with this harshness away, and the right is waiting right there to swoop them up and be like, look, they're fucking all. judgmental and stuff. We don't educate. We don't teach. We are not kind-hearted people. Right? as a like like like Joe. Like Joe. Like Joe, for example. Copy: Yeah. the yeah, they well in the older generation go ahead. Luis: Joe had to get a hold of me once, right? Because he was at he was at a Mayday, a Mayday rally, okay? Marching with the unions. And they were doing their union chants and there was a a group of joe: Mind you, real quick, let me just interrupt real quick. The whole entire purpose of this particular May Day rally, the International Workers Day. Now mind you, I was there representing the labor union that I'm a part of. And our our purpose of the march was organize labor in solidarity with a free Palestine. This fucking comes into play here. Luis: So, you know, they're doing their labor march, and you know, I had, you know, like contacts within the militant world of Portland. And and and this Joe this one kid wanted Joe to yell fucking, what did he want you to yell, bro? Revolution, revolution. I know it was revolution, like infidata revolution, right? And and and joe: Infantata revolution. Which means revolution revolution. Luis: Joe was like, Yeah, no, that's stupid. going on with this. And then that dude ended up throwing a chair or and and hitting Joe in the head. Right. joe: after telling me that unions are an agent of white supremacy and then and then hit me in the face with a chair. Tariq Khan (he/him): Jesus. Luis: Right? And Joe Tariq Khan (he/him): Mm-hmm. Luis: called called me and he's Yo, I need you to fucking find, you know, we need to take care of stuff. So so we anyway, but but that's the ridiculousness of where, like I said, we live. Portland is hyper different than the rest of the country. Right. We've earned we've earned the safety for marginalized people that we had that we've now losing and it's cost a price. But again, we are the homeland for white liberal whatever. So I i again it's we're we're a little hyper of that because of where we come from with that. Y you know what I'm saying? Copy: Right. Well, and and to t just add on to that, I I think Joe's experience, I don't know if you've experienced it, Tark, but the just the pushback you get as a veteran coming into this because they think, you know, you're a you're a wheel of the establishment, what people fail to realize is we also know how they think, know how they operate, and we can counter that and teach people how to do that. But once you start just Fuck you, fuck you. Then you don't I'm I'm still gonna be on the right side of history, but I'm not d I'm not gonna give you anything. I'll just take care of mine and my people. Luis: I I appreciate what you said earlier about humility and about what you said about listening to the communities that are affected. Over here, Joe Copy and I constantly we we we do a TikTok every couple of days together and stuff like that too. And you know, we we talk to people that are like, I'm going here, I'm going there. And we constantly tell people, Great, you're not there to be a savior. You're there to listen to the people who fucking live there. Right? So so listen to them because they know the situation on the ground. They they know what to do. So again, if you're listening, if you're one of our two listeners and you're out there deciding to travel, Copy: Yeah. Luis: listen to the people you're gonna go travel to, because it's super important. Copy: Absolutely. joe: So I have that. Luis: Because our city was made our city was made that violence tourist place. I don't know if you remember, but from two thousand eighteen to two thousand twenty, right wingers and left wingers from outside our community descended on our town for two years and made things a lot fucking worse than they needed to be. Copy: Yeah. Thanks. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah, I I remember I remember some of that. f followed some of that. yeah, it was it was wild the the right just decided that like Portland is where anti Fa like this this you know, terrorist organization is headquartered and we're gonna we're gonna go after Portland, we're gonna go after Berkeley. They had all of these like nonsense ideas about what the left is and and how to stop the left. Luis: But there was the American left that also bought into that, right? That that fucking continued it. I I I'm really like when I look back, I'm like, we made Joey Gibson a star here. Right? and and and we didn't stop anything. We won, we pushed the feds back, but at what cost? Everybody who was part of that that I still talked to, that was out in the streets then. They're blown out years later, weirdly, right? And and I don't know that we have the strength for round two. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. Yeah, it's it's you every every situation is different, but I I I think in a lot of cases it it's n not a good idea to fight the right in sort of the a time and place that they've decided like we're gonna have our right wing rally thing and then the left is all we're gonna go there and like it's like they've just picked the battlefield for us. Like you you're already losing. but like you know, I remember the the Turning point USA tried to pull that shit on us, back in Illinois where they were bringing this right wing grifter anti-immigrant guy to show his his documentary and this was supposed to be their big event for the year. And and they started messaging us posing as leftists. These were turning point USA members posing as leftists. messaging us we gotta go protest this, they wanted the buzz of a big protest at their thing. And we were like, you know, we're not doing that. W instead we're like, we're gonna have a teaching about who like our local fascists are and what kinds of stuff we can do to to like combat that. We're gonna hear stories from people who've been targeted at a completely different place. And we're not even gonna acknowledge their thing. And their thing had literally had less than ten people show up and Luis: Beautiful. Tariq Khan (he/him): and our thing was just a packed thing. Was that a Unitarian Universalist church that opened their doors for us, you know, standing room only. And that was the event of the night and their whole big event for the year that they were hoping to have big protests and generate buzz about look at how the left oppresses us and all of that just fell flat. Copy: Good. Tariq Khan (he/him): Now there are times when you just have to straight up confront the right, and and come out and you can't let them take over the streets and stuff like that. So I'm not saying that that's always the way to go about it, but oftentimes it's like we fight on our terms. We don't let them choose the battlefield and the time and the place, and then we have this contained thing where we're surrounded by cops. We're fighting against our enemies, surrounded by a different group of our enemies. it's strategically it's it's not No, we we gotta think strategically what's actually gonna be effective. And a lot of times it's not this straight Copy: And be fluid. Tariq Khan (he/him): up confrontational kind of stuff. Luis: We do. I I I think the one thing I appreciate about the three of you as veterans, and I know I tell Joe and Copy this a lot, is so I'm a big sports guy, right? like I'm a huge sports guy. And I appreciate that you guys have been in situations where I don't know about you, but I know Coppy and Joe most definitely have been in situations where people that they didn't like could not stand, were on their team. And responsible for keeping them safe and alive. And they had that same responsibility that you guys understand what it takes to make teamwork as as soldiers, as veterans. So I appreciate that because it's not always there is a time to smash and there's not a time to smash. And Joe, I feel like I just cut you off, so go ahead. joe: That's okay. No, it's all right. I was I was gonna ask another question, but that's I mean, let's talk about that. Copy: Yeah. I well, well, joe: Or or not. Okay. Copy: I here, here, I'll go on about it. I seeing the the talking Tariq Khan (he/him): Well joe: Ha ha ha. Copy: about that, I appreciate you bringing that up, Louise, because I it goes into what I was saying about veterans getting pushed out in certain situations. Like I said, you ha we have tactical knowledge and it it you don't have to be a grunt infantry cat in order to have tactical knowledge and the way of thinking. It goes across the military, across the board. They teach us how to think. In the ways of teamwork and unit cohesion. So that also means that you're gonna have to put your fucking ego aside and do the mission, do the job, do the task at hand, and do it to the best of your ability. And that means doing it with people like there's people on the left I don't fucking like. I can't stand them, but I'll work with them in order to, get the movement mo moving forward and continuing Luis: So Copy: that. Luis: Joe often says and I agree with him that that look, not all of the criticisms of the left are necessarily wrong. Right? When we hear that the left has a lot of elitism and no better than I I've seen that. And I think that part of the problem with getting the reason we don't win Is a we haven't learned that we've lost yet, right? In in basketball, there's a term that you have to you have to learn to lose before you can win. We have to admit that we have lost 100%, right? And then what Joe also says that I agree with is that this motherfucker, and I mean the left, is so full of everybody wanting to be generals. Nobody wants to be a soldier, right? And what did What did you say when you first got came when we first started about an hour ago? You said that you're kinda suspect of anyone that says that they have the answers, right? But we have too much of that on the left. We have too much, too many people that have read awesome amazing books, but that's it, right? And they worry like about the language that you use. Like fuck boys. We had the language we use costs us something. we don't need to get into that. We've gotten into that before. But because, you know, we're too judgmental and we think we know better and we're elitists. And I think that's the reason why we don't win. And that's why you don't see a lot of black and brown people from the hood that should be attracted to anti fascism as a political system. They don't because there's a lot of fucking white generals here that know better than the rest of us. joe: Word, at the end of the Tariq Khan (he/him): In joe: day sorry, go ahead, Dart. Tariq Khan (he/him): I was saying that's some of that f frustration I think might be like like specific to certain regions of the country. like I'm not dealing with really annoying leftists where I live hardly at all. but but I have been in places where that is the case. And and I've and I've express as expressed a lot of the same frustrations, Luis that that you have when I was in those kinds of situations. But Luis: No, and I've learned that the East Coast is different, that it's not as the West Coast, you boys know, we are racist as fuck out here, right? Like in San Francisco Copy: Especially Oregon. Luis: in San Francisco at night, you can't go to certain neighborhoods. So don't don't come to the mission unless you're Latino. You know what I'm saying? Like after like say midnight stuff. Like wave. But like joe: I go wherever the fuck I want, Luis: you know what I'm Copy: Right. Luis: saying. But but out here, so like it's it's there's not a lot of black and brown unity out here, right? That th we've bought into the the what the regime has wanted people to buy into. So it is a little di it is a little different out here. And where we the state we do come from was founded as a a a white s a white utopia, Copy: Why you to play? Luis: right? Specifically Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. Luis: the Willamette Valley, in which I live in and copies from. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. Luis: So it so it is a little different, but so when I do hear stories up from the East Coast and I do talk to other people out there, I I I ha I have a little bit more hope than saying where we are. Tariq Khan (he/him): yeah, and when I when I got out of the military I immediately just kinda threw myself into anti war, anti imperialist, anti authoritarian stuff and I got really while I was in the Air Force I got really interested in anarchism. I was reading a lot and it wasn't you know, reading for school, I was just reading stuff on my own. and and when I got involved in like movement organizing it I heard all of this stuff about it's just a bunch of white boy leftists but I'm like it wasn't. It was like a a lot of people of color. It was it was black anarchists, it was indigenous anarchist. the f you know, the first shortly after I got out of the you know, the military and now went to an anarchist conference. It was anarchist people a color conference in in Washington D C, you know, as former Black Panther Party Luis: No. Tariq Khan (he/him): members, former American Indian movement folks, and I'm like and that to me was Was anarchism Luis: And and that and that exists here. And I and I do I do wanna say that that that element exists here on the West Coast and that there are a lot of good, amazing groups that are doing work, right? Like let's I don't even want in the it not everything here is my Debbie E or Downer self. so I just I do wanna point that out that there are a lot of good indigenous groups, there are a lot of good black groups, Latino groups, and even white boy groups, white people groups that are doing good work, right? There are a lot of people. we're just talking about the top we're just talking about like the top layer of the epidermis of of the body of leftist leftism here on the left. Does that make sense? Right. Tariq Khan (he/him): yeah, and it's like joe: Well it's Tariq Khan (he/him): that's what's visible and what we see in the media and stuff like that, right? Luis: As you get as you get deeper and as you get deeper, you see, 'cause there's clearly some reason why the three of us have stayed around, right? so like and and it continued to fight. 'Cause there are really there is some really good stuff. But yeah, as you you you have to you have to be willing to burrow deeper and deeper and deeper and just see it. A and and Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. Luis: keep pushing the minutiae back because one day, maybe not in my day, but we're gonna get liberated. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah, 'cause I and there's this I I I think there's a a false narrative that goes around and and none of you were pushing this narrative but as but there is this kind of narrative of that anti fascism is like a white thing. And like no like in the in the case of the United States, like black people have been the cutting edge of anti fascist movements. And I don't mean that in like a pandering kind of way. I mean just historically speaking. Right, you had, if you look at the the old double V campaigns and and you know, go back to to, you know, Paul Robson and and you had you had like black communists working hand in hand with Italian anarchists in New York City marching against Mussolini. And the they had their language was a little different in terms of the black communists were were using the language of anti colonialism And the Italian, these migrant working class Italian anarchists were using the language of anti fascism, but they were fighting the same thing and they were on the same side and they were being targeted by a lot of the same kinds of repression, including lynchings and things like that. and that's you know, as a as a historian, you know, I think it's really important to like know that history and for especially from an anti fascist, I've I've been, teaching, a a course on anti fascism and stuff like that. And it's one of the things I tried joe: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): to focus on was here's a bunch of examples, historical examples of anti fascism that is either in countries that you don't usually think about as having anti fascist movements in in South Asia, in Africa. right, like even in the present day, like s like some of the the largest and most lively anti fascist movements are in Southeast Asia. You don't hear about that in the United States. you have massive punk scenes in places Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): like Myanmar and Indonesia. and they use the language of anti fascism when they're fighting against things like military dictatorship and patriarchy. Right. Right? Luis: Huge huge skinhead scene. We all we all know, yeah. Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah, and I mean so like, yeah, I mean I was, you know, in even when I was in the military and in I did a little time in South Korea and there was just such a lively punk scene there Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): that was and they were politicized. They were talking about patriarchy and and and homophobia and they're you know and and talking about like you know state violence and stuff like that. but like I think it's important to like when we're when we're learning about anti-fascism, so learn about all of these different examples. And learn about anti-colonial critiques of fascism. Colonized people were the the first sort of the the people who first out of necessity faced fascist violence. And in fact a lot of what became fascist violence was grew directly out of colonialism. You know, Amy Cesaire famously wrote about that in his discourse on colonialism, right, the what he called the boomerang effect and all of that. but like when we're when we're thinking about like what is anti fascism, what is it in the present day, what has it been historically? And it has always been a just a a movement that's as diverse as as the human race. with a lot of groups that we've kind of left out of our main main histories of fascism are actually the ones who were sort of Right there on the cutting edge of of the movement. one of the one of the the good books that I would suggest folks, I don't have anything to do with this book, but I just think it's a good in terms of learning anti fascist history is Mullen and Hope's book, the Black Anti Fascist Tradition. like learn that history. like anyway. Luis: ke Keep going. Yeah. joe: fucking word. Well I na I Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. joe: I do that I w I I have a question being that you just talked about all of that, right? and the fact that you are a historian. and I have this one written down. Imagine that. So, you know, there's a plethora of prominent historians that state that there were many critical warning signs that people failed to take seriously during the rise of Nazi Germany. And like I've said before, that's the reason why I keep bringing up Nazis or Germany is because that is in the United States, that is historically what we're fucking taught, right? We don't see all this shit going on in other parts of the world unless it's something that you've actually taken the time to learn and look into. So for this I'll just I'll keep it at Nazi Germany, right? yeah. There was all sorts of critical warning signs that should have been seen earlier, some of which we're watching the replication of here in the United States. What do you think future historians will look back at at this timeframe and say in regards to overlooked warning signs that are currently allowing American fascism to gain traction? Tariq Khan (he/him): I mean to probably look at a lot of like like mainstream media, you know, Fox News of course and stuff like that, which has played a major role in just normalizing a lot of this stuff. But also the way that sort of fringe neo Nazi type groups and neo Confederate type groups kind of s sneakily became the mainstream of the Republican Party. And I was sort of back I remember in the early two thousands again, this is shortly after I got out of the the Air Force and and in the Washington DC areas where they, you know, guys like Jared Taylor, you know, these guys call themselves race realists or really they're just like white supremacists, would have their you know, every two years they'd have this conference, American Renaissance, where they'd bring the leading racists from around the world, you know, guys from South Africa who were part of the apartheid government, Copy: Whoa. Tariq Khan (he/him): you know, politicians from from the UK. you know they'd bring these people from all these different countries who were like you know prominent white supremacists and have this conference and they had a rule that you have to you for men had to wear a jacket and tie. They didn't want you showing up with your Confederate flag or swastika tattoos showing or any of that. They wanted you to look respectable because they realized that a lot of these neo Nazi, Neo Confederate, Ku Klux Klan talking points could appeal to mainstream conservatives if they change the packaging a little bit. Change Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): the change the way they frame it a little bit, but you're pushing the same policies. And and you know, me and this group of students I was working with and and anti racist folks, you know, we were raising the alarm Copy: Okay. Tariq Khan (he/him): about these American Renaissance conferences and and Back then these liberals were telling us, Why you just ignore them? They don't have any power, like they're nobody. And we're like, No, they're building real alliances with mainstream Republicans and Luis: Our friend Daryl has worked tirelessly to help every year he goes out there. I think they hold it in Tennessee now and he Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah, that that's where I I actually met him back in maybe sh I want to say two thousand four, maybe two thousand six or something like that, at Luis: Yeah, so so Tariq Khan (he/him): at one of these conferences. He was he had come down and was part of the organizing against those things, doing really important work. He had been tracking them for longer than we had. and had been raising the alarm about it for longer than we had. and joe: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): but yeah, people were saying like just ignore him, like You're just giving them oxygen, blah, blah, blah. Now we have Stephen Miller in the White House and during Trump's first term he's sharing American Renaissance articles to all of the White House staff over White House emails. Right? Copy: Yeah. Tariq Khan (he/him): they were very successful with that strategy of of how they sort of made what was a fringe thing become the main view of the of the mainstream Republican Party. And I think that's something historians are gonna look back on how that happens and what could have been done to stop that from happening and how sneakily that happened. Now you went from guys with Nazi skinhead type guys with the swastika tattoos and their their style was always a little off. They never really got the real skinhead style, but they were trying and to imitate it and so Copy: They look like shit. Luis: They look like shit. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. Yeah. They are you know, they always you know their boots would be a little wrong, their suspenders were a little bit wrong. Like they were just off. Yeah. But like but yeah, but I think that that's something Luis: Thick Thick old braces I like my braces thick I like my braces two inches Copy: Lager braces Tariq Khan (he/him): I think. And then when Trump was first coming into power, I I had this argument with so many folks, like people who I respect even And I was calling them a fascist and they were like, Well, it's not really fascism because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And fast forward to today, every single one of them is like, Yeah, this guy's a fascist. And I'm like, I'm glad you came around, but like we needed to have been be it's it's easier to stop fascists before they have power. Right. Luis: Amen. Tariq Khan (he/him): So joe: Word. Tariq Khan (he/him): like being able to see so that's where the hist history comes in and like is being able to see how these patterns work and be able to identify it early on. you you talked about your friend Daryl, he's somebody who's was a has been able to identify a lot of these folks way before they got in power. and Luis: Mm-hmm. Tariq Khan (he/him): been able to do some work to make sure that some of them never did get real power. Although some of those folks like Stephen Miller were able to s kinda slip through the cracks. and but so like that's something. But then also I think something that historians might look back on. is also the role that the like liberals and the Democratic Party and things have played it's it's in neoliberal economic policies. and the role that those have played in laying the sort of larger groundwork for fascism to take root, 'cause it's all of those policies that were pushed, you know, by Republicans and Democrats alike from, you know, you go back to Ronald Reagan and and and Bill Clinton and George W. Bush to Obama, they were all pushing these neoliberal economic policies that exacerbated inequality, that shifted resources away from social welfare towards social control, massive increase in border policing. we saw the largest increase of of ICE under Obama up until this second Trump term. and we also have to look at that because that's what why are why do fascist ideas appeal to some people? Why are some people vulnerable? Even working class people sometimes are vulnerable to to fascist ideas and it's it's that economic inequality and uncertainty and anxiety and social isolation that creates the conditions for fascism to be able to thrive. That I think is the more important part of the story, even more important than extremist groups, but rather these mainstream economic policies. Luis: Yeah, absolutely. joe: Fuck NA. Copy: Yeah, F and A, Cotton. Yeah. joe: Well, so word, that was an am a amazing answer. I I I love that. And we are at an hour and twenty-four minutes here. So we're probably need to be wrapping up. And I I say that, you know, I was so excited to get you on here. when I okay, Copy: Yeah. joe: you're coming today, right? So for the last week I've been like writing questions. I've got them all over the place on sticket notes and on my phone and all over you guys these guys Copy: Yeah. joe: last night, they're we're talking about it, they're like, Do you guys do any research d and get any questions written down? I was like, I have forty nine questions written down that are like multi Copy: Yeah. joe: part questions. You know what I mean? And obviously I can't obviously I can't answer Copy: Well then he comes on this he comes in the studio and he's like waving around his book of questions. joe: Obviously I can't ask them all, right? But like this is something where as much as we've kind of transitioned out of this being a political podcast and made it more about subculture, politics is always somet it's it's gonna be part of it, right? It's part of our lives. It's it's It just it it is, right? We're not apolitical in any means. you know what I mean? But this has shifted off of being just about politics with the podcast. That being said, coming into an episode like this with somebody who is so well versed as yourself, I was super excited, like, I'm gonna ask 9,000 questions, and then realized that we probably shouldn't have a 54-hour episode. So I'll narrow that down a bit, right? but with that, I do have one more question. So So took all those 49 questions and I was like, ooh, I'm gonna get four or five or six that I really wanna ask. I do have one last one that I would really love your your take on, Tarek. And it says, when p when people believe that they are fighting an existential threat, it's easy to justify almost anything in the name of the cause. How do we remain effective without reproducing the authoritarianism, dogmatism, and internal divisions we are opposing? Tariq Khan (he/him): Oof, that's that's a hard question. I I I I don't think I have a clear cut answer for. But I think part of it is like not to be too online. I I think what's going on online exact makes everything feel like a constant crisis. And there are crises going on, but we are not wired to be in this constant crisis mode all the time. But to have like relation Relationships with people in real life where we're talking face to face. I think you know s when we have even disagreements, to talk to each other face to face you see two people argue online, it blows up into something horrible. Whereas if they were face to face, they would have spoken to each other very differently. part of it is like not to be too online, but to be connected to the real world, real people in person. is is is part of that. of staying grounded and just being connected to commun. I think the more isolated we are, then the more that feeling of existential crisis like the the stronger that feeling is. Whereas if w if we're in community with each other then we've it's we support each other and you know, we you know, we Even even just on a a micro example of that, right, we have a an anti fascist reading group here, locally and you know, we're reading some pretty horrific kinds of stuff and and you know, a lot of folks talked about like how glad they were that we could come together in person as a group to talk about this because it was felt so like panicky to read some of the stuff that we were reading. I mean, we were reading like, you know, You parable of the sower and all this kind of stuff and people were like how much comfort it brought to be able to talk about something so heavy in a group of people and we're you know, and we're sharing, you know, we got snacks and we're telling jokes and laughing and you know, that has to also be part of everything can't be serious. We also have to just have just human relationships and laugh together. I was I can't remember who it was. I was somebody was talking about the Black Panther Party and then when the repression got really heavy and things started to kinda go downhill, and and she talked about how like something that she noticed was like people weren't laughing anymore. Everything was so hyper serious. but like you know, so much comes down back to that original piece of advice that I gave students where it's like be a person, but it's like Be people with each other. that I think is how we can kind of sort of deal with these crises without being in a constant state of just anxiety that makes us act in ways that's that is not gonna be helpful to us or anyone else. Copy: Dark humor does save sometimes. It it has its places. Tariq Khan (he/him): Yeah. Luis: Sweet. yeah. So I guess my last question would for you would be, are you hopeful? Tariq Khan (he/him): I I am hopeful simply because I have I have faith in in the power of ordinary just regular people being decent human beings and I see it every day and in in in all kinds of ways where just ordinary people are kinda quietly, humbly behaving in decent ways towards each other and that's where my hope is. Copy: Well, with that, it is time I'd like to give a huge shout out to Tyreek Kahn, former Yale professor and activist and author for coming on and laying it all out for us today. You definitely want to keep it locked up and tune in next time as our guest will be Jeremy Pena from the Bandulus, bringing the energy. But until then, as always, you've been listening to Hold Your Ground, the podcast. Head on over to BMGportland.com to read articles written from Joe, Luis, and myself. And while you're there, pick up a copy of Luis's new book, How the Anti-Fascists Save Christmas, where $5 of each book will go to a queer indigenous youth for whatever care they may need. You also get a special gift from us here on the pod with every order of a book. On behalf of my co-host, Joe and Luis and myself copy, stay frosty, stay fluid, and above all, try not to be a pile of shit human being. Out.