Latest / How Hard Can It Be? with Diana Maria Riva / Toxic Productivity, the Perfectionism Trap and the Power of Rest with Israa Nasir

Transcript

Toxic Productivity, the Perfectionism Trap and the Power of Rest with Israa Nasir · How Hard Can It Be? with Diana Maria Riva

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Busier is always better, Do more, give more, be more?
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Am I right? Today, my guest and I will be
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: discussing everything from being chronically busy to how to build
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: a sand castle to when productivity causes disconnection? I mean,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: how hard can it be? Welcome to this episode of
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: How Hard Can It Be? I'm your host, Diana madea Reba,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: and we are here navigating midlife's most fantastic bullshit and
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: today we are going to blow your mind with this conversation.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: My next guest is a therapist, a mental health educator,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: and the author of this fabulous read, Toxic Productivity. Reclaim
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: your time and emotional energy in a world that always
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: demanded more. You hear me right? Please help me? Welcome
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: My guest isra Nasi be clap, We've frid. I am
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: thrilled to have you here. You Uh, it's funny because
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: you just asked me if I found you, if I
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: was connected to you through someone else, and I found
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: you myself because there were some reels of you online
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: that captured my total attention. Because just even in this
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: in this title alone, in this title of Toxic productivity,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: reclaiming your time, emotional energy, and emotional energy in a
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: world that always demands more, that's affecting us all. But
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: of course, with my focus being the gen X women
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: who are known as the regents of resourcefulness, like we've
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: taken that to the extreme. This book really resonated with me.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: But I also want my twenty one year old daughter
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: to read this, and I want to know I break
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: the ice typically with asking women, which is a little
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: different this time around. What was there, oh shit? Is
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: this midlife moment? But with you, I felt you dove
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: into the beginning of your book discussing the oh shit,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: do I have too much toxic part with the title
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: that you created toxic productivity in your life, And I'd
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: love for you to share that was it? The moment
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: at the bookstore?
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Was that? The was that that was one of the moments. Okay,
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: but I'll share that bookstore anecdote essentially, you know, I
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: was at a bookshop with a friend and we were
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: just browsing the aisles, trying to like, you know, spend
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: some time together, and I just found that I was
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: I had just like be lined straight into like the
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: personal growth section and it was four thousand weeks by
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: all of our Berkman and I it was on my
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: list and I wanted to read it, and she was
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: in the you know, fiction section, just kind of browsing literature,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: and I just off handedly said to her, you know,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I haven't read like a fiction book in so long
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: as I was picking up four thousand weeks to purchase it.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: And that you know, that conversation with her where she
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: kind of gave me a reality check and this why
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: your girlfriends are so important, absolutely, you know, they really
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: keep you in line. She was like, don't buy this
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: personal development book. Buy a different book, come and buy
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: you know, fiction with me. And I just felt like
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: I couldn't do it. Like I just felt like I
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: was pulled to be like, well, I have a finite
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: amount of time to read, I might as well be
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: using it to maximize and like become better in some way.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: But that incident was like one of many across a
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: year where I found myself, you know, caught in this
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: trap of oh wait, I have a little bit of time,
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: let me make the most of it. You know, how
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: can I optimize my Saturday morning? How can I be
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: more efficient for everything? And over time it really started
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: feeling like this huge disconnect. I just felt like I
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: was like a robot going through the motions, checking things off,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: which I think you know a lot of people contend
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: with in midlife. But prior to midlife, there is something
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: called the quarter life crisis, okay, which technically which technically
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: hits around like twenty six ish. Wow, But because we
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: are a little bit more delayed in our development now,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: because things are happening later, right Like people are graduating later,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: they're getting married later. It's starting to happen in there
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: are people's early thirties, and that's exactly where I was.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: I was in my early thirties and just really didn't
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: know why I was doing it all, but I knew
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: I had to do it the most efficiently amazing.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: And that is I think the thread you take us
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: on this journey of talking to us about what toxic
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: productivity looks like, feels like, can manifest like, show up
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: like mask like, and yet that it can happen at
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: any stage in life. So you come into a simple
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: situation where you realize, I can't even find pick out
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: a book for fun. It has to be action oriented,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: assignment oriented, whatever for those of us four week because
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: this book is something that you really need to get
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: because it does take you through like a workbook with exercises,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: and she really breaks you, really do break it down
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: in a way that the eating is the reading isn't
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: so cerebral that that's a job in and of itself,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: just trying to decipher what you're being told what to
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: do and what not to do. It really is. I
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: feel like I was in therapy with a very trusted
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: therapist that would just just dialogue with me, give us
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: the point blank definition of what toxic productivity is.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Toxic productivity is when it's a mindset where you feel
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: like nothing you do is ever good enough, where you
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: feel like I actually can't take a step back to rest,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: and your sense of self, your self worth, how you
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: value yourself becomes directly connected to what you achieve. And
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: that's like these three things happen together and we kind
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: of fall into this toxic productivity mindset. And the last
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: one is the most important one because that's the one
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: that happens without us noticing. And these achievements can be anything.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: They don't necessarily have to be like grades or your
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: job title. It could be your relationship status. It could
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: be your children, like what they're doing, like you see
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: their success as a reflection of your value. Right, But
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: it becomes so deeply connected that you just don't feel
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: good about yourself unless you're working towards achieving something.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: You talk about how it masks itself and what the
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: different masks can look like. Can you give us some
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: examples of those.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, toxic productivity can mask itself as like high standards
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: and perfectionism. Right, so you might just think, oh, you
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: know what, I'm just a perfectionist. I'm Type A. I
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: like getting things done the way they're supposed to be right.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: But it's really like that standard of that internalized pressure,
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: that standard that you have for yourself that I need
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: to achieve certain things in order to be good. Right,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: And so, like publicly or externally, it feels like, oh,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: this person really has it all together. They're very organized,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: they're perfectionists, they'll always get it done. But internally you're
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: just very confused. You feel scared often that someone's going
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: to figure out that you're not that good because you're
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: struggling to meet the standard that you've put on yourself.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: You know, another thing it can mask itself as is
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: self care. But it's very you know, interesting that is fascinating.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: You think this is self care because you are pursuing
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: your dreams, your desires, wants, and you're being.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Of service exactly. And so I worked with this young
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: woman once who, in the quest of health, wellness and
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: self care, had kind of gotten trapped in this toxic
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: productivity mindset. So she would like push herself to wake
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: up extra early on the weekends, you go to workout,
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: go to the farmer's market, go to get her green juice,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: and then do all of these things. And she watched
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: all of the things that were nutritionally most maximal, right efficient,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: but it was actually causing her a lot of distress.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: She wasn't feeling very connected to the goal of health
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: because it felt like this pressure that she needed to
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: achieve this, and she felt a lot of shame if
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: she slept in But sometimes your body, actually that's all
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: it needs is just sleep. Like no green juice is
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: going to actually supersede the benefits of sleep, right, and
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: so it can. So you know when sometimes people ask
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: me about toxic productivity and they think it's like a
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: thing you do, but it's really like a framework that
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: you can put on anything, anything that could be good
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: and healthy can be transformed by toxic productivity because that
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: achievement mindset kicks in and it takes you away from
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: like the true desire.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: I you know, I love that you bring up something
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: as simple as self care and green juicing because of course,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: like a month ago, I pulled out my juicer that
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: I bought during COVID, you know, twenty twenty, and I
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: think it was the first time or second time I
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: had pulled it out. I'm like, I'm going to juice.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I'm going to juice. Oh my god, the amount of
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: work of you know, first, go get the fresh vegetables,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: which is fine, that's you need to do that for
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: your body. But cleaning the machine, I want to jump
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: off a cliff.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: I was just going to say, it's the cleaning.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: It's so it's too much. Yeah, and now I'm resentful
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: over the machine, and then juicing just falls off, and
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: then I feel like I have failed my body exactly.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: You know, we are in this interesting time, especially for women,
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: because there's suddenly this spotlight on like woman's health right now,
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: especially like perimenopause, menopausal, you know that segment. You know,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: people have understood that this is a market and it's
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: a powerful market with a lot of purchasing power. So
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: like we're starting to see the mechanics of comparison and
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: perfectionism and pressure kind of seep into that. And I
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: personally am feeling really overwhelmed by the number of things
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I have to do to maintain my wellness, and I'm
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: trying to like scale back so that I don't fall
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: into this mindset myself, Like between the macros and the
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: protein and the fiber and the.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Green trologens and the peptile cology.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: I don't even you know, and then the work, the strength,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: the mobility, the sleep, the skincare the red light. Right,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: I have to take a step back and really analyze
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: what it is that will genuinely matter to my life
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: and my chemistry and where I'm at. Because comparison to
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: others triggers toxic productivity woof.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: And we live in a comparison society. Yeah, if I
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: were my kid's age and had this twenty four to
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: seven social media availability of comparing, how and now with AI,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: we don't even know what we're really comparing ourselves to.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know how I would have I would have
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: imploded and I but it's already happening. I don't have
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: to be twenty four to twenty five to be affected
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: by it, and put myself in the equation and see
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: where I fit. Where does my hair fit, Where does
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: my body fit? Where does my cortisol level fit? And
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: it is amazing how quickly because you talk about the
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: emotional needs, it's either satisfy the productivity, the toxic productivity,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: satisfying an emotional need as well feeling, which obviously leads
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: to self worth. But I feel really disappointed in myself
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: that I got so overwhelmed with everything Earmark Priority, because
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: you brought that up in your book, that I stepped
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: away from working out and I love working out. I
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: don't love it, but I do it, and I love heavyweights,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: I love training, and I stepped away from all of
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: that because of what the energy and time that I
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: was putting into my career, my organization, a platform that
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: I co founded, and that all of that time, and
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: so I did not I have not prioritized, but I
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: am answering to the emotional needs of thinking that I
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: need to be there for these people and I need
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: to invest in this now, now, now, now, now. Because
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: I'm fifty something and how long is the career going
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: to wait for me to accomplish it? And because of that,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: I have taken the priority of taking care of my
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: body because of this list and put it down here,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: and I'm really disappointed in myself.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's like an interesting place to be in
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: because you're you're identifying, like disappointment is identifying the thing
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: you desire. So you're actually getting this message from inside
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: that hey, this is actually what's important to you. But
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: what happens is when we spear disappointment, it can make
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: us feel very ashamed, right, and shame is a paralyzing emotion.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Shame actually prevents you from taking action. And so I
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: like to help people like reframe the disappointment into a
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: more action oriented statement. So instead of saying I'm disappointed
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: I didn't prioritize my wellness, you could say it seems
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: like working out is very important for me, and then
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: get curious, how can I prioritize it now? And then
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: we don't get stuck in the place of oh, I
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: didn't do it, to a place of how can I
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: do it? What can I do? What are the small
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: changes I can make? And what you're kind of describing
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: is like the disconnection piece of toxic productivity. So that's
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: what kind of was like. The biggest thing for me
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: is when I started feeling disconnected from the things that
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: actually mattered to me, and I was like so overwhelmed
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: by that, and I was like, why don't these I
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: used to care about this, so I don't I care
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: about it right now? And that's what actually started this
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: exploration into toxic productivity, because disconnection from true desire is
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: the outcome of toxic productivity. It's an alchemy. Don't want right.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: We can call it burnout as well, because that's effectively.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: What but disconnection sounds I actually like, I'm a words person,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: and that piece of vocabulary I think is bigger and
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: more impactful to tell me I'm disconnected from taking care
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: of my body versus I'm burnt out. I'm just like, well,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: I burnt out. I did as much as I could,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: and I burned out. Disconnected from taking care feels like
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I've lost myself and I want to go reclaim myself.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: But sorry, yeah, no, you're totally right. That's why there's
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: the word reclaim in there, because we're trying to get connection.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, and.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: You know when you think about you mentioned this like
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: timeline thing. You were like, well, how long is my
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: career going to? Wait?
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Ye?
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Right, So that's another thing that I mentioned in the
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: book is we are operating in this false sense of urgency.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got right in there. I've got my notes
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: to you guys. Do you guys know me by now?
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: You're my note You're a good student of it, and
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: you know, and I think especially for women, we are
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: constantly told these narratives that are telling us that we
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: have run out of time. Yes, you know, like by
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: the time you hit twenty five, everyone's like, oh my god,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: you're ovaries. They're going to expire, they're going to get backshipe, yes, right.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: And then you hit your thirties and they're like, oh
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: my god, your neck needs sunscreen and right, And so
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: we're constantly like forty, like you know, is like this
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: big number where you're like, what's going to happen now?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: And forty Yeah, you're rolling them up. No, I'm just
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: getting sorried.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: No, but you know what I mean. Like, it's just
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: it's where we are operating under a false sense of
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: urgency at all times, and it's amplified for a woman,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: and that really gets us into a place of scarcity.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: That and that is then fight or flight totally.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, your nerve system is disregulated and then it actually
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: makes you behave in ways that is not reflective of
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: your values. So I talk a lot about values and
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: like value driven work, and that's what healthy productivity is.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: But when you're feeling scarcity, you're operating from fear, and
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: you tend to kind of surpass your values and disregard
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: them because you are you're trying to alleviate and cope
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: with that fear. And then you come to a place
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: where you wake up one day and you're like, wait,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: what did I do? Like do I even like my friends?
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Like did I care about this house?
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: You know, people start getting this existential kind of like
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: questioning around the decisions that they made.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: You mentioned one thing, and I want to talk about
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: a little bit about chronic busyness because for some people
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: it is I don't I wouldn't call it a defect,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: but it is a condition, the chronic business. But you
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: do talk about how if we just stopped and asked
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: ourselves review what did I give of myself or who?
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Or what did I make myself available to this past
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: week and did it? What was the ROI on that?
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Was it worth it? What was that return on investment?
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: And should I create my boundary of not giving of myself?
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: And I have a hard time with that. I know
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: that once I've made that decision of I'm done, I'm
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: so solid done, there's no revisiting for me. However, it'd
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: be better if it weren't so just black and white
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: that I given a give and I give, and I
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: give and I give, and then when I'm afraid and
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I'm done, It'd be better if
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: I called that earlier.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I'm a huge fan of audits, self audits. Yeah,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: self audits like and you know, whenever I see clients,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: when I used to we would do it together. And so,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: like a time energy audit is very helpful in this
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: because it tells you your pattern, and once you understand
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: your pattern, you can actually anticipate what your done line is,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: so you can pull back or you're at the done line.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: And so what time energy audit like, what is that?
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: It's essentially looking at your calendar in the last three
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: weeks and writing down every single thing that you did,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: like everything that you committed to personal life, work, romantic relationship, parents,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: like sister, whatever, and then having a column that says,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: did I have to do this? How did I feel before?
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: How did I feel after? And then you'll start to
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: see patterns emerge that there are some places you go
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: you're kind of feeling low energy, but you left happier.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: And then there's some people you see or some things
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: you do you were low and it made you feel
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: even worse. Okay, yes, and those places you can kind
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: of understand, like, okay, like why do I keep going here?
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Maybe they're your family, right so you can't maybe you
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: can't not see them, but you can still start to
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: plan for emotional protection when you're around those types of people,
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: like it just gives you insight. Yeah, And then once
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: you have the inside before you say yes, you might
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: actually set a boundary. And a boundary doesn't have to
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: just be a hard no. It could be I'll come
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: but for one hour only.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Yes. I was told once a long time ago, make
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: a sandwich. What you're going to do for yourself before
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: this agreement to go do or be with people that
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: you're like you need limited time with. And on the
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: other side of that sandwich. The other piece of bread
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: is what you're going to do for yourself afterwards, so
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: that you know that you have two responsibilities for your
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: your self care before and your self care after. Yeah,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: and you know, make sure that those are the priority.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: And I do think that we can fall into obligations,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: obligations feelings were obligated trying to be supportive and thinking
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: if I'm not there for that person, they're not going
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: to be there for me. Or how about that? How
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: about that lack of return investment when you have invested
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: in these these people, that person, this institution or whatever,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: and when it's your you don't see that being reciprocated.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very frustrating. And the faster you catch those
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: signs and you adjust your behavior, like, the better it is. Well,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: you know, when you are in that situation, I always
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: kind of remind myself that, you know, everything that I
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: have given is a reflection of who I am, and
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: that makes me feel grounded in situations when it's that
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Like who I am and I love that I'm a
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: very giving and loving person.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: But we have to have our limitations, we do.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: We have to love ourselves more than whatever it is
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: that we're giving to just yeah, so that we can
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: be more decisive about whether or not it's worth our time.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: I don't ever want to show up to something resentful,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: and how many of us have done that where we're
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: there and you can see it on your face that
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: you know, be there, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: And resentment is like the first red flag of a
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: boundary violation. And you know a lot of times we
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: are like, oh, the you know, this person doesn't respt
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: my boundary and that person doesn't or but I think
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: for most of us, the first violation is an internal one,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: like we kind of dismiss our boundaries first, yes, and
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: then we don't actually catch that because we are trapped
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: in different narratives like whether it's a toxic productivity narrative
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: that if I don't do it, nobody will, or if
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: it's like the role narrative, Oh, this is what a
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: good you know, roller, mothers, husband, wife, whatever does, And
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: so we're just kind of and we never actually stop
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: to check the things we believe in. And that's one
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: of the core things you do if you're starting therapy
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: is your therapist will essentially try to understand what your
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: beliefs are and then they'll just reflect back the inconsistencies
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: and then say, like, you know, is this really true
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: for you? Is this what you really want? Where did
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: you first learn that a mother has to be X
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: y Z and so we have to update our narratives
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: as we change into different stages of life.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you bring that up with in your book.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: The patient's name was Lauren, and you talk about how
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: and I have friends like this. She comes in and
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: she says, my husband says, I'm just too busy and
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: I do too much, and I'm engaged in too much
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: and the kids and the marriage are not getting that
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: valuable time. And she said, and you told her, tell
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: me about your day, and she's like, well, I do this,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: this is this, and the weekends, I do this.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: This.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: On the weekend, she was up at five. I'm like, girl,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: why are you up at five on the weekends?
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Like at least?
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: But that is either we're sleeping in or we're getting
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: up too early. And she could not hear herself when
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: you repeated back to her her schedule. She could not.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: I was exhausted reading her schedule and the things that
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: she has, But she justified it. First of all, she
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: couldn't hear it. Secondly, she didn't matter. She liked being
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: this person. But you did catch her on something. You
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: made her stop in her tracks because there was something
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: in it that wasn't fulfilling to her, because you asked her, well,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: what is it that, what is it you feel you're
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: getting out of it? Or who told you you needed
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: to accomplish all these things for the house, home, children,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: and husband? And she didn't have an answer. Yeah, it
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: was almost it was almost as if she just said
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: something like, well, because that's what you're supposed to do
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: to be a good wife and.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: A like a good mom, like I'm setting my kids
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: up her success. Yeah, And then I asked her what
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: she valued the most, and she said, I value my
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: family the most, and that there's that big disconnect. Yes,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: you are telling me that you value your family, and
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: yet your behavior is reflecting that you're not actually connecting
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: with them. And so like that was the thing where
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: it's like she was lost in the narrative that if
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: I value my family, my kids have to be highly
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: competitive and you know they need to do this, that
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: and the other. And if I have to be a
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: good partner, like I have to be financially like this,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: that and the other, and I need to. So she
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: had all these like I need and I should, I
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: need and I should, And she had made herself chronically busy.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: So you brought that up a few minutes ago. And
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: so chronically busy means your time is accounted for, but
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: everything that you are doing doesn't actually move the needle
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: towards your values or the goals that you have. You're
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: just slotting in the time. And that's kind of what
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: we did with her. We just took off some of
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: the things that genuinely were not as value aligned. And
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: you know, and sometimes therapy is like a nice bow
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: where she ended up like connecting with her family. But
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: then you have clients like some other people that I
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: spoke about, you know, it doesn't actually fit and they
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: have to continue to do their exploration. And I do
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: think that people have to be sometimes ready to receive
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: the message.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Yea, oh for sure.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's funny because when you say the professional way
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: of saying this is you know, chronically busy or making
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: doing all this action and not moving the needle. I
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: like to call it swirling the toilet. And I am
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: one of those ones. I'm like, we are swirling the
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: toilet wall. People. This is not working, you know. And
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: there's nothing that drives me crazier than that waste of
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: time or when I catch myself in it, and then
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: I'm just like, all right, every flush because we're done here,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: but time and and but by the way, that's ripple
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: effect because then I get anxious, and then that anxiety
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: becomes frustration, and then that frustration can easily become either
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: you know, in menopause, anger or tears. Yeah, and it's depleting,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: and it's gotten me nowhere. You tell I love this
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: story in the book about chronic busyness, the sand Castle story.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Can I tell it? Because I love it so much,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: So I'm gonna tell you your own story. You and
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: your partner decide, let's do a trip to Kawhi, no business,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: no work. How many of you guys have done that
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: where you're like, we're gonna we're not gonna take this stuff,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: no phones, no Instagram except maybe for the Q pig,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: and we're gonna go. And that immediately you're excited. That
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: immediately launches you to scheduling the trip and what's going
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: to happen? Where's the best beach and the hikes and
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: the best restaurants, and so there's that level of anxiety
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: and to do to do, to do, to do.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: Then I love this.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: You're on the beach next to your man and you're like,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: this is the perfect location to write my book. I
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: am going to write a book in Kawhi because that
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: is where it all happens, right, And you're there trying
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: to get inspired to write the book and that's stressing
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: you out. Yeah, And you look over and his ass
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: is snoring.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Totally out, just no cares in the world, just sleeping.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Sand is everywhere on him, does not give.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: He understood the assignment while you're here with your iPad
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: on the beaches of Kawhi, like not knowing where to start.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: But the best and I howled at this and it's
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: such a simple story. Is when he's on the beach
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: and you're in your world swallowing that toilet bowl and
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: you're hearing saying so the botov and you're like, what
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: he says, do you know how to build a sand castle?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: And it made you stop and answer find the answer
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: that you didn't actually know how to build a sand castle,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: and you weren't a child, and the two of you
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: go down and proceed to start to try to build
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: a sand castle, and you're doing it with holes in
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: the wrong place and water's coming and is noogging it over.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: You laughed and you had fun and it was the
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: most You said something like, it was the most present
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: I had been in so long, in something as simple
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: as sitting on a beach and build a sand castle.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: And that it gave me goosebumps, It made me tear up,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: It made me laugh because it's oftentimes that simple.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is in the simple things. And thank you
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: for a retail. You kind of took me back to
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: that moment. No, he took me back because you know,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: I see in my head the beauty that I was
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: surrounded by, but I also see, like in my mind,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: like the swirling anguish I had, Yes, right, And that's
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: kind of what happens. Is when your mind and your
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: body are not in the same place, you will always
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: feel anguish. There will be this sense of despair, of
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: loss of potentiality, what's not in front of you, and
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: then that causes an anxiety reaction in your body. And
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: when we were making the sand castles, I mean, it's
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: such a great metaphor, right, yes, because you make sand
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: castles for them to be swept away. There's no outcome,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: like you can't get an award for it, you can't
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: take it home with you. But I was also just
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: like mind body in the same place while I was
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: doing that, And when we're competing, when we're comparing ourselves,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: when we are trying to be perfect, when we're trying
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: to make sure everything is optimized, we're just not mind
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: body in the same place, and.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Then that spiral effect of disappointment, shame, resentment, anger, it all,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: it all comes, you know. I will tell you this,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: this just story just popped into my head. My first marriage.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: I've been married twice. In my first marriage, I was young,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: and it was the plan, you know, the wedding of
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: the century, and that it was all my friends were
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: getting married, and I busied myself into making it so
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: beautiful and so amazing and so fun to the point where,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: like I remember, this was like in the nineties, and
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: I did I wanted to do a wax seal, you know,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: on my on my on my invitations, and when I
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: went to the post office to deliver all my beautifully
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: hand calligraphied invitations. They said that they were going to
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: run it through the little time stamper thing and it
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: would most likely rip the wax seal off. And they
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: let me sit with one invitation at a time, and
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: they gave me their time stamp and let me stamp
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: one at a time, all two hundred and it was perfect.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: And I was so excited. And then the wedding comes
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: and I get there. The wedding is beautiful to perfect
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: day I'm a princess, Dada da. There was so many
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: little and I did. This was back before, like wedding
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: planners were really a thing. So everything that went a
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: little awry or wrong, and the wedding at the reception
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: just even questions about we ran out of this, should
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: we start the music now? Everybody was coming to me
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: and asking me questions and questions and questions and questions.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: While everybody the band is playing. These people are metangether
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: saw saying that whatever. And I was like this that
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: we drove to our place of our honeymoon and that
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: night I cried. I cried because I said out loud,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: I don't think I enjoyed my wedding. And it was
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: such it like listen, we ended in divorce. But nevertheless,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: it was a party and everybody was having fun and
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: all my loved ones were there, so either way, it
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: didn't matter. For that evening. It was supposed to be
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: a celebration, and I had made it so toxic with
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the productivity of it that I disappointingly did not enjoy
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: it at all.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And that's what happens, And I'm sorry that happened, you know,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: And I think in that moment, you probably thought that
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: you were doing the thing you're supposed to do, that.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: This was going to ensure that it was going to
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: be fantastic.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so you know, our productivity behaviors are also
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: a way for us to cope with like negative emotions,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: and that's why we tend to become busy, because if
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: we are not busy, then we have to confront the
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: emotion that we might be experiencing. And that could be anxiety,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: it could be sadness, it could be fear, fear of failure,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: fear of rejection, fear of being abandoned by the people
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: who you admire, right, And so we kind of make
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: ours it's like an armor. The reason we're pursuing these
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: achievements is because we want this armor around us so
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: that nobody can make us feel bad.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: So you identify it and your book and then you
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: go to moving to deconstruct it, and you talk about
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: how obviously this is mixed in with self worth and
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: the shame, and those cause reactions. There could be a
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: reaction to it with alcohol. There could be a reaction
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: to it with drugs. There could be a reaction to
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: it with overthinking and over preparing, which I thought was
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: really interesting and I would love for you to talk
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: about that, because we're like, oh, sure that drove them
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: to drinking a lot, or oh sure you can see
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: how they spiraled with drugs. But I never thought of,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: oh sure, I can look at her, she's spiraling with overthinking.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: But I do have someone in my life who is
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: working so hard to achieve her goals that the two
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: things that I would pin on her is she overthinks
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: and overprepares, like to the point where it's destructive. And
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: I point out to her lovingly, this overpreparedness is too
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: much and you have to give yourself rest. But I'd
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: love for you to expand on that.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so overthinking is essentially a way for our mind
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: to exercise control in a situation where we feel that
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: we don't have control. So if you're in a if
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: you're going to a presentation, right and you feel anxious
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: about it, one of the reasons you might feel anxious
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: is well, I don't know what people are going to ask.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know how they're going to receive this presentation.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the room's going to be like,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know where the mic will be right. So
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: you have all of these points of uncertainty that give
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: you a feeling like you don't have control. And when
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: you are trapped in the toxic productivity mindset, you want
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: control because control means you will get to your outcome. Right,
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: there's a path, and so by over preparing, your mind
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: is actually trying to exercise control. And what it does
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: is it taps into the what if, what if this happens?
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: What if that had? Like contingency planning now to a
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: limit that is really helpful, And then then a line
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: is crossed where you're actually using it to alleviate the
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: anxiety you're feeling in a very unhealthy way because you
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: start to kind of get trapped in like a rumination cycle.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: The rumination is like thinking about one thing without actually
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: thinking about how to change it. So you're just starting
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: to think about, Okay, well what if, what if? What if?
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: But that gives you a sense of control, so you
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: don't see it as wrong. In fact, it's something that
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: we really value and validate in our culture. Oh, she's
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: so prepared. What a great type A person, right, And
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: people actually people use that as a badge of honor. Oh,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: I'm really type A, Like I'm the type A friend.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: But I often think about people who are overthinkers and
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: type A as like a duck in water. So if
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: you look at a duck in water on the top,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: from the surface, they're so glorious or just floating, but
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: underneath the water, their legs are just the most chaotic,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: unsynchronized flapping, right, And if you've never seen it, go
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: on YouTube and look it up. But it's done so
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: well that it doesn't ripple the water above, and so
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: on the top it just looks, you know, pristine, And
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: that's what's going on. On the top. We're like, wow,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: like you're still prepared and this and that. But on
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: any person I've met and worked with who has this
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: is desperately unhappy. On the inside. And so what is
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: our goal? Is our goal to be perceived as people
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: who have it together? Or is our goal to be happy? Right?
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, and you talk about that you mentioned earlier on
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: in the book. This is not about just sitting things
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: out and letting them unfold. And of course we use
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: the word balance all the time. You gonna needs balance,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: life needs balance, But there's more to it than that.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: But I do think that one of the best pieces
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: of vocabulary and this whole reading is the disconnect is
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: whether or not you are achieving that internal feeling with
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: all this external stuff that you're doing. Like Lauren in
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: your book, your patient finally came to discovering that the
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: people that she was trying to serve the most were
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: the ones who were complaining that they don't have connection
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: to her. Yeah, and that's got.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: To feel, yeah, especially as a mom of young children,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: right like, in that role particularly. But you know what
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: is like the opposite of disconnect is alignment. So what
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: I like to say is like, we don't actually need
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: balance because balance, you can't actually achieve balance for a
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: long term because life changes, roles change, right, Like, there
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: will be seasons of life where you are more busy
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: at work than you are as a parent, or maybe
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: if you have a young child, right, your child was
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: just born, Like, there's not a lot of balance in
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: a new mom's life, right because you are emotionally obligated,
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: but you're also legally obligated to make sure that this
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: baby is alive and is healthy. So there's no balance
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: to be had in that moment. But I think the
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: like the theme that can kind of like be an
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: undercurrent that kind of stays stable is alignment. And you'll
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: go in and out of balance, and you might even
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: have seasons of toxic productivity, but knowing that there's an
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: end to it can actually help us maintain that alignment,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: just kind of like making sure that you understand quarter
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: after quarter or year after year that you're going to
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: time box this. And a good example of this is
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: when this book was coming out eight weeks prior to launch,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Like you are just you are working really really hard, right,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: and I was doing everything in this book that is
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: like a red flag for toxic productivity.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: You do talk about how you were in the trench
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: of this.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: And you know, and I think it's important to acknowledge
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: because we're not looking for some like permanent nirvana, because
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: life doesn't work like that. It's we are constantly in motion.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: But I told myself three weeks after launch, I'm not
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: doing anything for thirty days. And I had that, and
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: I knew that, and so I could sustain it while
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: not losing connection to the things that matter the.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Most, That is, do you have a lot of women
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: going back to the gen X woman? Do you have
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: have you spoken to a lot of women in this
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: generation in this chapter and what their toxic productivity looks like.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: I think that the women I've spoken with are either
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: really wellness oriented, so there's a lot of pressure on weightlifting, creating,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: like all the things, and like the schedules have become
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: really regimented, and it's like kind of like assessing friendships
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: around that. And I'm starting to see that a little bit.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: And again, these things are healthy, but you know, at
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: what cost? Is the thing that I always ask about,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: and the second is optimizing their empty nester time.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, you know. I have said things like
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: May is for me. Last May. We are now at
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: a year where I said May is for me, and
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: I never gave myself that May where I said, Okay,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: I'm going to put this aside, in this acide because
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: I really want to clean out these closets and things
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: that I a cleansing in the house that I needed.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: That May came and went and here we are May
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: of twenty twenty six. I was like, never had that May.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: But I see some of my friends who are really
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: in the midst of still providing for themselves, providing for
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: their older children that are you know, half in, half out,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: one leg, one foot in and out of the nest,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: and then the parents that are aging or ill. And
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: how can someone in that box not feel not be
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: taken down by that toxic productivity.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: I think when you are in this like sandwich generation
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: where the two competing priorities are equally important, It's like
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: your parents and your child, but then your partner and
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: your career as well. Right, there's a lot of competing priorities.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: What becomes the most important is intentional active rest. And
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: when we think about rest, we think about it as
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: this passive activity that you'll do later, that you'll do
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: on the weekend, that you know. But I think what
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: we actually have to think about is how do we
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: operationalize rest to be a part of our life. How
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: do we make rest a part of our routine, not
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: a reward that we get at the end of something.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: And you know, gen X kind of was raised with
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of alcohol culture, and so you do see,
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: especially after the pandemic, certain subset of women who have
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: increased their alcohol intake because so much of alcohol is
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: like wine down, right, like you had a heart and
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: there's no shame in this. But what I win wine
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: o'clock wine moms, Like there's all this march around it, right,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: and that's not bad. Like I'm not saying that we
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: shouldn't do that, but it cannot be the way you rest.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Right, And so by the way, you don't rest, you
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: drink wine and then you're up in the middle of
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: the night anyway.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah, or you're getting anxiety the next day. Right,
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: And again this is this is not a noc to
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: drinking at all. But what I'm trying to say is
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: it is not the way to rest and rejuvenate. It
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: is a social thing that we can do, or it's
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: a thing that we like because it tastes great and
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: we like the craft of wine making or what have you,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: but it cannot be the way you wind down. And
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: because this generation doesn't really have a lot of inherent
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: knowledge because it was just not part of the culture
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: growing up. Right, I see a lot of people struggling
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: to understand how to rest, and so I say, there's
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: two types of rest. There's active and passive rest. So
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: active rest is things that are more action oriented yet
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: still RESTful, so working out, going for a hike, seeing
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: your friends doing a craft. Passive rest is when your
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: body physically needs some downtime, so sleeping in massages, like
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: just kind of relaxing and not being in an activated state.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Knowing the type of rest you need on that specific
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: day is really important. If you really need physical rest,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: going out with your girls might not actually rejuvenate you,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: and so you have to have a lot of understanding
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: about what you need. And then research also shows there's
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: seven types of rest, right, and so we don't always
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: just need to sleep it off. Like I said, there's
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: social rest, there's creative rest, there's emotional rest, spiritual that
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: could be like meditation or religious whatever, And so just
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: thinking about rest in a newer way is very important,
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: and I think that's the path for someone who is
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: feeling trapped. And the biggest myth I hear, is I
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: need to have sixty minutes in order for this to
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: be helpful. No, you can bacon a thirty minute downtime
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: in between, like a nap. Naps are really helpful. A
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: meditation or just chilling. You can start your day with
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: rest fifteen minutes of just drinking your coffee and looking
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: out the window and just kind of you can bake
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: it in and even if you meditate for three minutes,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: that's actually very RESTful for your body.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm always surprised at the power of meditation because
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: I notice that if I just do and I'll do
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: a guided one, if I just do a ten minute
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: one a day, or there are seven minute ones, and
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: if I just commit to doing it the seven minutes
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: a day, somewhere around week one and a half, I
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: start to feel just a completely different energy around me
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: in getting through things and walking through things. And it's
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: magical and I clearly it's a power greater than myself
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: that I can understand and it's meant to be that way.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: But when when I fall off from it, it's always
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: hard for me to get back in it. And then
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: once I do, I really feel it. And you know,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: you talk a lot about rest and you also and
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: you also give these great exercises that are not because
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: it is about actively to citing as well. What am
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: I going to take off my plate? What's really not
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: serving me internally? What's even a prioritization? As you say,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: it's how are you prioritizing yourself with this list of
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: things to do? But there's one exercise in here that
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: you said, keep, stop, start? What do you want to keep?
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: What do you want to stop doing? What do you
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: want to start doing? And I remember when somebody I
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: hired this company to come over and declutter my house,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: like go through all the things. I was a great
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: student because she said throw away, give away, keep. Those
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: were the three piles. So she would present something to
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: me and I would choose whether to throw it away,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: give it away, or keep. But when you when it's
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: organized like that, it's a lot easier to look at
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: it and make a decision. I have one of three
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: and you do it here with keep, stop, start, And
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: I just want to give you an example to our
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: listeners that this is something so simple but can be
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: so effective. So you reflect on your current productivity habits
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: and with the following questions, what will the next thirty
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: days look like for you? Keep? What do you want
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: to keep doing for the next thirty days? Start? What
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: do you want to start doing for the next thirty
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: days that you're not doing right now? And stop? What
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: do you want to stop doing for the next thirty days.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: I read that and I don't feel guilty. Something in
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: the way that is worded tells me I do have
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: those options to keep, stop, or start.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's neutral. A lot of the language we
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: use around like goals and productivity and it's very like moralistic,
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: like good bad, right, and that activates shame and people
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: feel this around drinking, eating, working out, like there's just
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: like a lot of morality around it. I like to
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: really encourage people to come to like a neutral state.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: These are just objective things that you're going to keep,
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: that you're going to start, you're going to stop, and
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: then we'll just kind of revisit thirty days later.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: That's the thing. It's not set in stone. You can
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: do it for thirty days or not do it for
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: thirty days, and just see how it suits you, how
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: it feels, and you could surprise yourself.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: I think like the core message that I want someone
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: to kind of take away from this is you have
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: to be really flexible in how you get to where
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: you want to get. So we get really bogged down
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: by like rules and rituals, and then the shame kicks
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: in the checkbox. Right, It's if you understand what your
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: value is and you can identify like the ideal scenario
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: for yourself. Like, while that can remain the same, how
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: you get there at the different seasons of your life
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: can change and evolve. And the best thing that we
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: can do is meet us at our current capacity, because
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: that's how you're going to move forward. And I think
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: that's something that we kind of forget because we make
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: plans for our ideal self. Oh sure, you know, when
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: I set my plans, I'm like a different person in
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: my head, and like that person wakes up early to
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: work out, right, But that's not who I am. And
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: in this past year, the only reason I have been
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: successful at working out regularly is because I let go
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: of that myth that I need to be the person
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: who works out in the morning, and I just dismantled
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: it and it you know, and I work out in
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: the afternoon and I have not missed I workout.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: It can be something as simple as not holding yourself
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: to the rigidity exactly certain schedules that are in your head.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: So I want to go to a final thought that
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: was towards the very end of your book. As we
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: move through the different stages of life, we can begin
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: to lose parts of ourselves and attempt to replace them
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: with parts that we think others will respect or accept.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: But in that process we become disconnected from ourselves. I
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: invite you to think about the parts that you have
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: lost when your passions were replaced with productivity. Decoupling your
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: self worth from what you do is the first step
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: in coming home to yourself. And I love that.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: Thank I really love that.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: So thank you for having this wonderful conversation with me,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: for coming on and sharing your book with us, because
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: and we will put the link in so you know
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: where to find it, and also your Instagram as well,
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: because those are just great nuggets of take you know,
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: feel good and remind us for the day. But it
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: was really fabulous to have this because it seems in
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: essence it's almost simple, but it's amazing how complicated we
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: make it.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, thank you so much for having me.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: This was such a wonderful conversation. Yes, and you know
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: it made me think about things that I've kind of
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: forgotten about it. So I'm going to leave this discussion
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: with more on my mind.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: I just want you to post a picture of the
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: next san castle you and your man.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Will send it to you.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, Thanks? How hard can it be? With
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: the Annamadea Arriva is a hyphenit media group production in
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: partnership with Iheart'meifultura podcast Network. For more of your favorite shows,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: your podcasts.