Latest / Difference Makers Podcast / Mark Scully on compassion, masking, and changing how firms manage people

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Mark Scully on compassion, masking, and changing how firms manage people · Difference Makers Podcast

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone and welcome from wherever in the world you are tuning in to this difference makers discuss episode.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I am really excited about today's episode, and it's a treat because I've got a Charged Count's Ireland member, so we're actually face to face in the same room, which is amazing.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, what am I looking forward to?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I am talking today to Mark Scully.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Mark is a member of Charged Accountants Ireland.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: He trained in a big four firm, but is currently the founder of Braver.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: And Braver is a coaching and consulting um firm that specializes in the neurodiverse landscape.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm gonna say no more.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: I am going to turn it over to Mark to fill in the gaps there from when you maybe thought about accounting and to where you are today.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: You're very welcome, Mark.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so thanks a lot, Sinead.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm absolutely delighted to be here.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose at the outset I should say I didn't actually train in accounting.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually uh trained in law, studied law in college, qualified as a barrister, uh, but then I immediately pivoted and joined the tax graduate program in KPMG back in 2011 and did my three and a half year training contract there and qualified as a retired accountant and as a tired tax advisor as well.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then went to did law for a couple of years.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: I joined a law firm as a tax associate, tax lawyer there, before coming back to KPMG uh as a manager in 2016.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then I stayed there until 2023, uh, until I left the firm uh as a tax director to set up uh Braver.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose you look at that and you can't like how okay, how did you get from there to there?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose if you looked at my LinkedIn, you wouldn't see that there was anything, you know, to know what I had a career progression hit all my milestones as you'd expect.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't hide that, you know, I I hid significant struggles um uh in the workplace.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Academically, I did really well.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think uh I don't want to say the conclusion to all this is that I am autistic and I was diagnosed as autistic in 2021.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: But uh academically that didn't impact me because the academic environment, study, exams, um I excelled in.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it was only when I got to the workplace and I joined uh KPM Gene did the training contract that the areas in which I struggled really manifested.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So navigating the unwritten rules of the office, navigating uh social relationships with my managers, with my clients, uh, I I just had this sense of I'm not getting it.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't understand why I'm not getting it.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was looking around at my colleagues and I was like, John is able to do this, he's able to get on with the client so easily.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Mary's able to get on with the her boss so well.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't I just do that?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I was really, really, really kicking myself.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was relying on a lot of the coping strategies I built up over time, which was uh I would say yes to everything.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: I said yes to every work that came my way because I was like, if I just say yes to everything, uh that is how I will get by, that is how I will be able to get along with people.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I said yes to everything.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I worked longer, I worked harder, uh, I did uh because I was so afraid to let people know that I was having issues.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was struggling.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I just hid it all away uh until that manifested and I ended up having to seek uh mental health support, and that was about 2013.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I was really, really, really struggling that transition from an academic world to the world of work.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um that transition I found extremely interesting.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, Mark, to interrupt there, but had you any of these um did you observe any of this in school or in college, or was it very much the work environment where it kind of became triggered?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: I would I would say is that I always had mental health difficulties growing up and with social relationships.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to understand, Sinead, you'll know this, you know, a young man in Ireland having mental health difficulties was pretty par for the course.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it it wasn't it wasn't seen as anything, you know, uh out of total completely out of the usual.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing was was that I was still excelling in my exams, so I was hitting there was nothing wrong.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So so so it was it was only when it got to the world of work then that the areas in which I had issues in, those really got exposed in a big way.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I really needed to go out and seek help.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I got mental health support, and I have to say, you know, that helped me out massively.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and was that in the firm?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: That was external at the time.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but that introduced me to okay, you know, asking for help for your mental health, and I became a huge mental health advocate after that was that is so important.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we talk about neurodiversity, you can't talk about neurodiversity without talking about mental health, they are inextricably linked.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that was fine.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: I left the firm and then I came back in as a manager, and again, that was also a massive transition, okay.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is something that doesn't get talked about in the profession, whether you're in uh the professional services.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: That transition to manager is such a massive jump.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and I don't know um to what extent we are equipping our people to take that jump and to be effective managers, but I found that extremely difficult.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Again, went through a period of uh uh working longer, working harder, and I eventually burnt out.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now at this point, the firm did get me help.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: They got me, they uh referred me on to the EAP, which I found to be uh employee assistance program, which again I was able to use confidential service, got counselling there, and I also got coaching.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: So they arranged a coach for me.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it was in the context of the counselling that the counsellor said to me after a number of sessions, has anyone mentioned autism to you?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I was kind of taken aback and I was like, I said, No, why would they why would anyone say autism to me?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: I know what autism looks like and I can't be autistic.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and he was said, No, look, just we did a kind of a short screener tool indicated it was something that you may want to look into further.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I did look into it further.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I I was taken aback.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, wow, this explains so much about the issues I have been facing.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I went off anyway, and I got a professional assessment and uh I was diagnosed as autistic back in 2021.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to say that that just changed everything for me.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, there is loads I want to ask.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna hang on and put things into compartments so I don't forget.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: I want to come back to the manager piece because I think that's really critical for the profession.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I want to dig into the diagnosis.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you say it changed everything for you.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: How?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, did it did it permit you to to become comfortable with yourself?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Did it permit others to or not permit, did it mean that others treated you differently?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and would that have been a good or a bad thing?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: The biggest change was certainly within myself.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think so.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when you get a diagnosed letters autism or ADHD, or then this particularly a point for late diagnosed people, it just allowed me to reframe my experiences in the past and to adopt a kind of a more compassionate stance for myself going forward.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I had kicked the crap out of myself for not being as good as everyone else because I said there's something wrong in me.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because and the narrative I had built up was I'm just ill-disciplined, I'm just not working hard enough, I just need to work longer and harder, and then uh I can be as good as everyone else.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to finally say I'm it's not because of that, it's actually just because I'm different.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, there's some areas I need a bit of help in, and it's okay to ask for that help.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I finally gave myself that permission and a compassion to stop you know beating myself down.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So did it give you a little bit of confidence?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I would say no, the compassion it gave myself, the confidence then came from the coaching, and there was kind of two parallel tracks.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: And dealing with the coaching then, I was finally able to understand wow, all of these negative coping strategies that I built up over time.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Understanding now in the context of I was autistic, for instance, they're saying yes to everyone.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: My my default when dealing with people was I don't understand what they want from me.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm not reading the social cues, I'm not understanding the underlying social context in which the situation arises or the social context in which we're operating within the workplace environment.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: What's the safest default here?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just say yes to everything.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then work it out in your own time and then work how how the how to do it.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and and that meant, you know, I was burning myself.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was putting everyone else before myself.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it was through the coaching then I was actually able to say, no, I need to actually figure out what's sustainable for me in the long term.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And learning to say no actually was one of the biggest lessons I ever learned.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And saying it not in a an obstructive way, but in a way of we need to find a sustainable way of moving forward here.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: I also learned how to say I don't know.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Being because I had a fear of like not knowing the answer, how that would look to other people, because I thought the expectations upon me that I inferred in my mind were totally different to what the real expectations were in me from the firm and from my colleagues and from my bosses.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And once I learned what those expectations were, by actually communicating with my bosses and asking them, you know, what what are the expectations here?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was failing able to understand, wow, what I thought the expectations were versus what the expectations actually are were totally different.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that allowed me then to work uh better because I was able to work more sustainably.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: I worked less hours, but I my work improved.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I the funny thing is that once I started implementing all these changes in work, I had been getting a two rating throughout my entire career in KPMG.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: A two, it's a one to five, one being the highest, five being the lowest.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I got into two career uh two throughout my career.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it was only once I started implementing the changes.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the funny thing is that work I implemented these changes well, work knowing I was autistic, I hadn't disclosed.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, interesting.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I implemented these changes, and then I got a one rating, and then after that, I disclosed.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: And there and it was an interesting conversation.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: My boss said to me, He's like, Okay, well, what adjustments are what do you need any supports?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: What do we need to do?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, It's okay, you've put them in place already.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: I asked for them and you gave them.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I didn't have to disclose to access them in this case.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: I just said, here's some ways I think I've uh I would work better.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, would you guys be willing to do that?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they very much said, you know, if you think it's gonna make you work better and it's gonna make you more productive, absolutely go for it.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this is a really difficult chat because you're throwing so much at me that I've got loads of questions and I'm trying to not forget them.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: First thing, um, a lot of the things you described there, I think 99% of accountants would have felt all those things you've said.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: But 99% of accountants are not neurodivergent.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, really, a lot of things you've said there I think applied to the entire population.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: However, which aspects do you think were amplified by the diagnosis, if this all makes sense?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then the follow-on question to that is the coaching you got.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Was that specific neurodivergent coaching?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Which then leads me on to my third question of why have you set up Braver?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is was there a need in the market for for this?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so one, two, three.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I've probably given too much there, have I?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have to.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've lost you, I've forgotten what number one is.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Number one was the lot of the things you uh discussed or or or highlighted there.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the majority of trainee accountants or managers or anyone in professional services firms may have experienced.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the coping mechanisms that you dealt with, uh I'm gonna challenge you.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Are they specific to a neurodivergent person?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, in no way, shape, or form.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is something now that I've noticed in the narrative when you look at the the commentary on neurodiversity online, the discourse about neurodiversity online.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Neurodivergent people are people.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's not a monolith.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Every neurodivergent person is different from every other neurodivergent person.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Ergo every person is different from every other person.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it there is no experience that is wholly unique to neurodivergent people.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: For instance, the topic of masking, masking is the concept of you know, a neurodivergent person masking their neurodivergent traits in order to quote unquote appear normal to fit in the office.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: This can have a massive emotional toll on neurodivergent people because masking, doing it to that extent over such a long period of time can take such a massive uh impact on mental health.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, Mark, that is fascinating what you've said.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: As I was listening to you, I was thinking though, I'm guessing all of those thoughts are things that training accountants, managers, and professional service firms, they're all things that everybody feels.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, what was the difference for you with the autism diagnosis?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it that everybody has these things to deal with?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: I would say it's that we frame this in a way of these are somehow uniquely autistic problems, or some of these are uh uniquely neurodivergent problems.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: We need to take a step back here and understand that neurodiversity is the recognition that everybody's brains are different.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, there is no problem or behavior or trait that is going to be wholly unique to any one population, whether it's autistic people, people with uh ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, you will find any of those individual traits across any individual in in the population that it is possible.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to understand here I've lost it.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, don't worry, don't worry, don't worry, don't worry.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um will I frame the question differently, or will I not do that question?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: The it's more so it's more to try to bring in, I think what I might frame it in is that these are to me, these are potentially issues that everyone might feel.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: But what is important is that we look at this from a total neurodiverse environment.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: So is that better?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and what is maybe the the the the the do do neurodivergent people have have more increased challenges?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say, yeah, and I would say you might say many people feel instead of everyone who feels like perfect.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: So Mark, fascinating what you've said there, and and all of those things that you have said as challenges.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I suspect that there's a lot of people in the professional services arena and and indeed generally that fe felt or feel a lot of those things you do, you did feel.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is there, however, a difference in the way we need to look at it for neurodivergent individuals and and and for non-neurodivergent, so so the entire neurodiverse community.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something we need to be aware of?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think there needs to be a recognition here that there is no challenges that are completely wholly unique to neurodivergent people.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Many neurodivergent people, and I say this in the context of examining who's in the workplace right now, there's three categories of neurodivergent people in the workplace.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's the neurodivergent people who are neurodivergent and they don't even know they're neurodivergent.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's neurodivergent people who are neurodivergent, they know it and they're afraid to ask for help.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's neurodivergent people who know it and are confident to ask for help.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been all three of those over the course of my career.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And now going into coaching people and coaching individuals in the workplace, I'm I'm satisfied that there is no problem.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is why unique to neurodivergent people.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: How do we help neurodivergent people though?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is we need to move them from that first category, which is people who may be neurodivergent and don't know it.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we do that through awareness, into the second category, which is neurodivergent, maybe afraid to ask for help.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: How do we do that?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: We normalize uh neurodiversity in the workplace, we normalize it, we have the conversation around it, uh, and we normalize that different ways of working are achievable.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that gets us into the third bracket.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the thing that benefits everyone.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, completely.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Completely benefits everyone.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, and it comes back to an earlier point as well, which I said was mental health and neurodiversity are inextricably interlinked, and many of the topics I've talked about have been the impact of mental health upon me.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Neurodivergent people are statistically significantly more likely to encounter mental health issues through the course of their career.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: That may be, is it because they're neurodevelopmentally different and they're more prone to it, or is it the impact of masking, compensation, camouflaging their neurodivergent traits to appear quote unquote more normal in the workplace and the emotional, mental, physical impact that takes over the course of time?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a bit of both.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So neurodivergent people do experience these issues, they're more likely to experience these issues, but as regards if you look at those issues, are they wholly unique to them?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you look at, let's say, um people coming in from a different cultural or ethnic background, they mask.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Women, they mask, you know.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So so all of these things are applicable to the wider population of workers here, which is why I always am of the view that neurodiversity and embracing the ability to work with people who think differently, and that's what neurodiversity is.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's how do I work with somebody who thinks differently to me?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: That is applicable to all aspects of work, not just working with someone who has uh ADHD or who is autistic.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what I'm hearing is that, and if I look at this now through the lens of an organization or a a uh you know a workplace there is not much specifically that a workplace needs to do to cater for a neurodivergent employee.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's more about the holistic, how do they go about catering for their entire community?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um correct me if I'm right wrong.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but and is that how and why did you set up Braver?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is that part of your messaging?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's two important parts there, and I will push back on you a little bit more.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do push back, please.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Which is one is we need to actually normalize this and have the conversation in the workplace.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: So going back to that point, I said we have three categories of neurodivergent person in the workplace.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know I was neurodivergent and I was truly miserable.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: The diagnosis and why the diagnosis is important to me, it allowed me to then build the self-awareness in myself and understand here's the things I'm good at, here's the things I need help on.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: For me, that was the autism diagnosis and getting coaching.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: For other people, they may get that self-awareness from something else entirely.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's, you know, reflecting on your experience through the lens of neurodiversity or building that self-awareness in some other way, whether it's counseling, coaching, mentoring, for instance, that is always beneficial.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: In order to do that, we need to have the conversation.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say we need to normalize that conversation in the workplace and find ways of crystallizing that conversation in the workplace, whether it's bringing in training, whether it's allowing the space for uh employees to set up neurodiversity networks, ERGs, just finding some way to create a nucleus in the in the organization around which a conversation can occur.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one aspect.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: The second aspect then is what organizations are doing.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a big push for me is training managers.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I find, and this is something I find in the accounting profession, just in professional services in general, it's very process-focused.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: We have a way of working here, this is the way we do things.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And if you cannot do things the way we've set up the process for, you're the problem.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's process-focused management, and it's the way we've been doing things for a very long time.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Neurodiversity is more about person-centered management and it's more outcome-focused, which is okay, appreciate.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a different way of working here that would actually suit the way that you think, suit the way that you communicate?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Are we able to incorporate that flexibility into the way we work here that will actually achieve the work outcome that we need from this person and is a way of working that actually works for you?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: That is something that we as a profession and not just accountants, professional services as a whole, need to get much better at.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the where we need to move into.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: So being better managers, adaptable managers, flexible managers, that is uh, I think the key area to get in.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: You've hitten something that's really um close to my heart because I think, as you know, I was in practice for for many years, and I saw that people would get promoted to manager a lot, largely based on their output, their delivery of work and as you say, process.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: But suddenly they're put into a role where they they suddenly need to be people experts and they need to be empathetic, they need to be compassionate, they need to have the time to listen to people, and and we don't arm them for that at all.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a little bit of what you're saying as well, is that as a profession, we need to arm them with those people skills.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I would say people skills and the not just people skills, but the the ability and wherewithal to say there's more than one way of doing things, and being open to that, and also being open to a narrative if they do encounter issues in the workplace, and let's say, and I always come back to this is that humans don't like open loops.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: When we see something that we don't understand, we always want to try to close that loop based on a narrative of what we already have.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And for often people, let's say if somebody's missed a deadline or something like that, you you'd say, Well, why did they miss that deadline?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you'd say, if you don't have an awareness of neurodiversity and the impact you know it can have on a person, you may close that loop based on your preconceived notion of oh, they're just not working hard enough, they're lazy.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, neurodiversity and that narrative and understanding of wow, that person, they may just have an issue with executive function, they may have uh that issue with prioritization that comes from maybe ADHD.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you don't say that specifically to the person, but it it opens an ability to have compassion for that person of okay, what supports maybe that person needs in order to do the job.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, different ways of getting things done.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and and it's what supports may that person need.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's you're going to that conversation from a place of compassion rather than from a place of blame and frustration, which can, if you're going to conversations like that, and I see this in coaching all the time, it completely sets a tone for that relationship that can lead into a vicious cycle of blame on one side, blame on the other, and resentment, and you end up damaging that relationship.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I fundamentally believe going to these relationships from a view of how do I work with somebody who thinks differently to me and acknowledging I can change the way I work with people to factor in that difference opens up ways and conversations that are much more compassionate and productive and sustainable in the long term.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: You've used the word compassion an awful lot there, and then you also touched on, I liked the phrase open loop.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think as accountants, we always like to try to like things are black or white, things are right or wrong, and things are open or closed.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's where we are struggling as a profession that we always need to have an answer for something or a solution for something.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas I think, you know, sometimes we we need to accept that that mightn't be the best way, and we'll get there eventually, but not necessarily immediately.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would love to be able to come here today and say, here's a here's a checklist of policies and procedures that you can implement in your organization now today, and you will be neuroinclusive and you're going to be absolutely fine.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and organizations would love that as well.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Organizations would love that as well, yeah.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: But there isn't.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And like it's when I go in, so what does Braver do?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: We go in and we're basically preaching the message of, you know, you don't have to be the experts in autism, you don't have to be the experts in ADHD.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Neurodiversity isn't just about, you know, how do you work with people who are coming from these neurodiverse communities?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's about how do you work with people who think and experience the world differently than you?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: How do you get people who think differently working together effectively?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I do.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: I go in and build the awareness to start the conversation, to allow that normalization of those differences and talking about those differences.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: We deliver HR training and management training in order to open people's minds and give them tools and techniques to actually work in different ways and in flexible ways to accommodate the differences that people have.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Mark, I'm gonna I wanna I wanna throw something at you.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know through the work that charge counters worldwide have done in in this space, and charge countants are done in this space, there's circa 15 to 20 percent of the general population are neurodivergent.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: About 1 to 3% are autistic.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: There is a perception and a belief that the profession actually attracts more neurodivergent people than other professions.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: However, and you know that I had a specific personal reason a few weeks ago from a talent perspective to look for somebody senior in the profession that was openly autistic.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and between a number of us, we we couldn't actually come up with anyone.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Is there an issue in the profession that we're we're we're not open to this?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something we need to do differently?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think there is an issue in business more generally, and this is the question that's come up time and again from other business leaders saying, Do you know of anyone or how do we get senior leadership to openly acknowledge they are neurodivergent?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it, there's such there's still such a fear and stigma out there, and it's very it's very difficult.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what you have to do is you just have to keep the conversation going the more kind of bottom bottom up and top down.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a groundswell of people within organizations who are trying to make this happen.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: You have graduates coming through, students uh and the people coming into the profession now, they're much more open to conversations around neurodiversity just because it's been normalized from a younger age.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that pressure's coming up from the bottom.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: From the top, then all you can do is you can just keep asking.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I would just say this to anyone out there who may be a senior leader who's neurodivergent and says, Oh, if I said something, would it really make a difference?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: It makes a huge difference.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I listened to a webinar back in, I think it was 2022.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't openly disclosed to anyone that I was autistic or anyone beyond a very, very, very close circle.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was afraid of the reaction I get.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was afraid I was afraid they won't believe me, or or maybe they will believe me, they think I'm an incompetent.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I also just couldn't relate to people out there.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't relate to uh I couldn't see anyone in the professional space in Ireland that I could really relate and say, okay, they're like me.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And a senior lawyer in a law firm in Ireland uh uh came out and she's and she said she was autistic and she was successful and she had uh married and she had kids, and I was like, oh my god, there's someone I can relate to.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, and it validated my experience so much, and I finally felt more comfortable to be more open.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that had such a huge impact on me, and really bar that happening, I don't know if Braver would have happened.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, for me to be comfortable to say this out loud.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are a senior leader out there and you're wondering, and you don't have to, you don't owe anything to anybody, but if it is something you're thinking, will this help?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: It absolutely will help, it will help so many people out there for you to you know tell people your experience, I think, because there are people out there watching who will get such comfort in that and understanding and say, I can relate to that person that I can be that person someday, I can be a neurodivergent leader within the professional community, the business community, the accounting profession.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a bit of a call to action.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you are a senior leader and you think it would help, I'm letting you know it absolutely would help.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I think that's a superb message, and I completely endorse that.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: If I can take that messaging and take it a step back, because you you initially said there was three steps or three categories in a professional, there was neurodivergent people who didn't have a diagnosis and didn't know the neurodivergent people that did have a diagnosis but weren't open about it.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're talking about the people who maybe have the diagnosis and try to be brave, not brave, um, transparent about that diagnosis.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: If there's senior leaders or people in the profession who maybe think like you did.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: So many years ago is is is I'm struggling.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something something's not right?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: The message is that the diagnosis helped you personally.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: So because a lot of people might be thinking, why would I bother?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why would I bother going to get a diagnosis at this stage in my career or life?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I I have to say, it's I I I'm not here to tell people that you absolutely have to get a diagnosis.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: The diagnosis helped me because it allowed me to reframe my experience and have that compassion for myself and open the door to, you know, neurodiversity and looking into oh newer there's neuroaffirmative and neuroinclusive ways of working.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: It gave me self-awareness, self-compassion, and a framework by which I can then uh explore ways of personal development, professional development.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if you or self-identify as neurodivergent, and that gives you what you need in order to, you know, go on that path to betterment and you know, personally, professionally, whatever the case may be, go for it.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Fill in your boots.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's it.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not here to tell people that you absolutely have to go off and get a diagnosis.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: I am here to let people know that whatever allows you to understand yourself better, understand your strengths, understand the areas in which you have challenged, understand that it's okay to ask for help.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm advocating.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: And whether that's through neurodiversity, whether it's coaching, counseling, mentoring, talking with friends, family, just meditation, whatever gets you to that space, that I think is important.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: That and that's the that's the the key message, okay.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: This neurodiversity helped me, and neuroinclusion and the diagnosis helped me to get to that space.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it may help others, but but whatever helps you is personal to you, and I just go find it.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing, amazing.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Mark, you have done your own outro there.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna try and cap that or or or better that because that that is an amazing message.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: I want to thank you for being so open, honest, transparent.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think you will have helped an awful lot of people out there in the profession.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, I I I wish you well in everything you do and everything that Braver does.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, thank you very much tonight.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you to you, the listeners who have tuned in to watch today's episode.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is a huge amount of takeaways.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And look, I know Charters Countons Worldwide would be delighted to hear any comments, questions, um, anything in this space because it is a a passion of Charter County Worldwide to ensure that we get um inclusity, diversity, and um awareness of of mental health and a neurodiverse population out there.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.