Latest / Doug Has Questions / Episode 35: Craig Parry; Kissing Frogs For Copper And Finding Epidote

Transcript

Episode 35: Craig Parry; Kissing Frogs For Copper And Finding Epidote · Doug Has Questions

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to this edition of Doug Has Questions.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Today, my guest is all the way from Australia, Craig Perry, president of Vistla Copper, and I think a few other companies as well.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: A few others in the Hidden.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Good night, Doug.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, welcome.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Haynes, Craig.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean to put a lot of pressure on you here, but I've got something new that I've been handing out.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a Doug has questions mug, but on the back it says that, and I had answers.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's going to put you on the on the spot now that you need to come up with answers during the show.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'll keep this as a reminder here that I've got to come up with a couple.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're going to have to have answers here as we go through this.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Just a little small token of appreciation for having you on here.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, I appreciate the opportunity.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've I've been watching a few of your podcasts and videos here over the last few days.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's some beauties in there with um Sean Dog.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I he's doing some work with us.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh Nick from Sebra, guys that I've met and spent a bit of time with now.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, no, thrilled to be on.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Good deal.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well I'm not sure.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: I should say I think it's you know it's a wonderful initiative.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've been talking to a few community members who who listen to it regularly.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so good work.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Appreciate that.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get into the Craig Perry story.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Growing up in where where in Australia did you grow up?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was born in Glen Glen Annis Local Hospital in uh 1973.
• 1:27
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And Glen Ennis, tiny country, well, a small country town of about sort of six thousand people.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I think since I left when I was eighteen, um, you'd stayed around that level the whole time.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh born to my mum was a bookkeeper, uh, dad was a sheep shearer at the time.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, sort of, you know, we we lived in town for a part of that.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think when I was a bit older we moved out out of town a bit and um more on the land.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but yeah, dad dad was a sheep shearer and sort of in an interesting part of the world, I suppose, beautiful part of the world, New England.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: I actually live in Vancouver now and uh Gleniness has similar weather to to Vancouver, you know.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: We get a little bit of snow every year, it's often often pretty wet.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: See that when I think of sheep shearer, I give that's being done like a couple times a year.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Am I wrong on that?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: No, well you when you're saying your dad's a sheep shearer, it's like, man, it's like twice a year they're shearing these things.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: What's he do the rest of the time, or is it more involved with that?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, more involved.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, wool wool wool farmers gr uh and and and breeders, they you know typically shear once a year and there and there is a season.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh and often that's a hot part of the year, so you're working in shearing sheds at sort of 120, 110, 120 degrees.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's a pretty rough and and tough business to be in.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I I sort of, you know, it it it's piecework and it's seasonal, um, but it it back in those days, you know, they we used to say that Australia rode on the sheep's back, um, and Australia's biggest export earner, I think, sort of through the middle part of last century were uh was wool exports.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a big part of the Aussie industry and um yeah, so Dad was a a a part of that.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: He uh it actually you know it's it's funny, I was sort of reflecting on some of this.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: My grandfather, you know, he was an artisanal tin miner.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um these people would dirt poor.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh but anyway, managed to work with their their way out of poverty and do pretty well.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, the the sort of the the bus the family business, I didn't really want to go into it because I saw what it did to my father.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: He got a terrible case of hydadids, which is a a fluke assist, uh in uh I think I was uh it must have been 76 or 77, so oh no, no, I was a bit older, four or five, and uh and that nearly killed him.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's got this huge scar, they had to open his chest up in the middle.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Is that is that something from just being around the sheep from yeah in the wall or in the gun?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you actually get it from its transmission from sheep to dogs, and then he had you know working cattle, cattle dogs and sheep dogs, and uh and so he got that off them uh handling the dogs.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, he spent nine months in Sydney in hospital, so I remember that was the first time.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: My introduction to the big smoke.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um I always thought I wanted to spend a bit more time in City and and had to because of my job and career over time.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I prefer country.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: You're five or six years old when this when he's in the hospital for nine months.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and I remember it was terrifying and a lot of tears and you know, Christmas without dad there and things.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So so that was awful.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that was enough to scare me off uh offshore.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: You were that was a good enough push there at a young age that you wanted to do something else.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And uh but dad, you know, he then went on, he he started a sort of uh a number of smaller businesses.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um he now he's he's eighty-three and he still goes to his office every day.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: He's got a storage complex, you know, little storage units, and he sits down there and collects rump rent collects rent and hides from mum.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: She'll watch this, but mum was a wonderful mother.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: She was a bookkeeper and uh she's got a long to-do list for him to do like that.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they set up a local real estate agency there, but um, yeah, so and and one of my favourite things actually, I just got married a month ago.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Hide and Nora, my lovely wife.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and mum was over, and I've sort of m the you know taking more and more time to to ask mum and dad and uh and all of my relatives just a bit more about their story and history.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, she was telling me about my grandfather.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I knew he was an artisanal tin miner, but what I didn't know is that he'd he dug, hand dug a uh a channel for 14 miles to move water around the hill to his sluosh boxes where he'd where he'd shovel the tin in by hand and then pan it, put it in bags and sell that.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: He he he hand dug by himself?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Fourteen miles.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Incredible, yeah.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you start up at the the creek and then bring it all around the mountain to the little tin deposit that he had and the claims he had.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, r really So that was a that was kind of a plaster mining.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very small scale, one man with a shovel.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, uh and but uh what I didn't realise, like I did know that mum used to she used to ride her bike about ten miles to get to the school bus to to go another sort of thirty miles into the the the town.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they had kerosene.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they didn't have electricity, so they they survived on kerosene until she was about sixteen and they moved to town.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they had a pretty sort of tough existence.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Dad tells stories of shooting rabbits when he was nine to help feed the family and things.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, we we sort of uh from hillbilly country up there.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's I I think it's just uh not necessarily hillbilly, but just the they did what they needed to to survive.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, for sure.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that was the job that was in front of them, and they they did what they could.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, you supplement with that with wild game or whatever else you can get, uh make sure there's enough to eat.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And they managed to drag themselves out of you know pretty basic existence to having, you know, reasonable sort of middle class existence in a little country town, which yeah, yeah, I'm very proud of.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And dad always had a bit of an entrepreneurial bent.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: He started a real estate business, which was his main business for the sort of last 20 or 30 years of his career.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So and that had an impression on me as well, the sort of entrepreneur on his entrepreneurial spirit.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: So did you, when you were growing up, were you thinking you you at a young age, before you even go into school, you're like, I'm not getting into the sheep business.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: So were what what were some of the things going through your head then on what what you wanted to do or be?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh look, I'd I was always sort of interested in in finance and you know, I'd I did read the papers as a kid, and I wasn't not the most sporty of fellas, but I'd I'd always read the business pages and see what was going on there.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I always liked that.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I when I when I left school, actually, and and you know, I joined the army after leaving school, and Australia had this very good thing there, they called the Ready Reserve Program.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was just after the first Gulf War.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think I finished school in 91, so 92 I joined the army, and you do a year full-time and then five years part-time behind that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh so I joined the infantry, I was a grunt, uh, and that just gave me you know fantastic training, you know, discipline, uh a bit of money, which helped me get going at uni and um uh and a you know a bunch of lifelong friends, so so that was a tremendous experience.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: But um uh and then I actually went to university and did started a financing and accounting degree and uh very quick quickly realised that was gonna bore me to tears.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh yeah, I don't I've always been a bit outdoorsy, so I should have known that I'd wanted a job to you know an outdoors sort of focused job.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: So is everybody is it mandatory military service in Australia?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, it it wasn't, and I think that they brought that in as a sort of way of bolstering the the military there in Australia post that first Gulf War.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um but no, no, no, no conscription.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think in Vietnam we had conscription, but that was the last time conscription conscription was I know there's some countries that it's once you turn 18 or 19 or whatever, you got a certain period of time that you you got your one or two years that you serve.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so so what now you you you don't go to finance, so you go is that when you go into geology at the University of the United States?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, so what I did what I did, I test my memory banks here, but I so I I did about a year of that and then realised okay, I'm uh I'm not doing too well here and I'm not enjoying it.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I'd been reading about the opening up of China.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I started, I bought a a a a Chinese lesson book, uh a Mandarin lesson book, and started teaching myself Mandarin because what I wanted to do was go and start a genes retailer in China in 1993.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Had no clue how to do that.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I uh I spoke to Dad and I said, Look, I'm gonna need some capital pretty quickly.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: What should I do?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Where where can I make some money?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, uh over in Kalgooli in the eastern gold fields in Western Australia, I know a fellow there that's got a geological service business.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And um so I quit uni and packed up and moved to Kalgooli and and lived in the bush working on drilling programs and exploration and just fell in love with the rocks actually.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh the exp mineral exploration business.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now you know, we talk about mining, but we don't a lot of us don't actually do that much of mining.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm more in defining the things.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh yeah, I realized well okay, this sort of exploration business is a crazy treasure hunt, global treasure hunt.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: So so that captured my imagination, and then I actually just fell in love with geology, you know, the rocks.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was fascinated by plate tectonics and um and mineralogy and you know how you use sort of uh geological concepts in exploration to find mineral deposits and things like that.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: That just captivated me.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: But in the meantime, I um I'd never despite growing up in a place that gets like a foot of snow a year type of thing, had never skied.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: But the company that I work for had a very good year.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the my first mentor in the business is a fellow called Rick Yates, and uh he had a good year.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: So he flew the whole company to New Zealand skiing, and I fell in love with skiing and three months later sort of abandoned any plan to go and build uh build a jeans retailer in China.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: I went skiing for a year and came over to Canada.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, landed in San Francisco and then then went up and did a ski season in Canada.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: I drove uh my girlfriend and and I at the time, we drove all the way through Nome, we drove uh sorry, not Nome, um Fairbanks up to the Arctic Circle.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think we started in San Francisco, the whole uh west coast, and then we drove down into Montana and all the way across the US, down the south, and then back.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think we covered about 35,000 miles in six months, and I think we went through 36 states.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I fell in love with Canada and I really fell in love with America and what I hadn't realized, like I was always a bit of a an Amerophile, like you know, my my Bruce Springsteen's more of a religion to me than than a musician.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh, you know, and and Don McLean's song.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I always wanted to drive a sh a Chevy to the levee and find out it was dry.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so and and I just fell in love with America and and and the thing that I hadn't really appreciated was the vast and diverse natural beauty, and you know, coming up here for the first time back in March, I was blown away.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's an astonishing, beautiful place, and um I reckon I'll I'll be we'll be spending a bit more time in this neck of the woods.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh and the people, man, oh man, Americans, you you're all so welcoming and inviting.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, some of you like to beat yourselves up a bit of but uh we you know people would invite you into their houses and feed you.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, so I just I just fell in love with America and you know the the upshot of all of that is I finally found the love of my life and she was a girl from Montana.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I married uh an American, so I'm I'm thrilled about all of that.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: But uh so we did that uh and and drove across uh and then backpacked around Europe and and then I finally went back to university and did geology a little bit later.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think I didn't finish geology till I was 26 or 27, and uh yeah, been at that ever since.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, so it's it's it's been an interesting journey.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so uh now that you got your gap year out of the way where you explore you did your skiing, exploring, yep.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: Went back, got geology.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: What's your first job out of school?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was very fortunate.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh you know, the mining businesses exploration and mining businesses, um you know it's a wonderful business in a way, but it's very cyclical and so it can be very, very tough.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, and when I came out of uni in 99, there were very few jobs.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it was a massive sort of global downturn in the sector.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I was very fortunate I like I worked, you know, I I'd found my passion.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: So when I went back to uni, I you know I was failing pretty badly at finance and accounting, but when I went back into geology I did pretty well, worked very hard.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and fortunate to get a job with Rio Tinto, who, you know, second biggest mining company in the world.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that resulted in um oh when did I start that?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that was you know 99, 2000.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: I did two years in in uh Western Australia, based in Perth, but but you know, on on programs exploring for diamonds and iron ore and the Pilbara and the Kimberley, and then they moved me to Chile and I lived in Annafagasta in the Atacama Desert for a couple of years, where I learned about porphyry copper exploration.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then that resulted in a role sort of heading up our copper exploration uh initiatives in China, and then and then Mongolia, uh, and then lastly, sort of I had a Globaline Ore project generation role out of Melbourne.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I was sort of starting, you know, I did that entrepreneurial bent, you know, the gene was was was getting a bit bored.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: So and I'd always had it in the back of my mind that I'd go out and start companies myself.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: So in about 2008 I joined a a pretty success, well, a very successful uh group of mining entrepreneurs there, you know, at a company called Oxiana.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and they've got Owen Heggerty and Tony Manini, David Forsyth who became great mentors, mates, and business partners of mine.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they they'd done it all before, you know, they'd taken you know, Oxiana started out, I think in 99, it was like a six million dollar company.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: They took it all the way to a you know, I think by the time we left it was a six or seven billion dollar company.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, I had gotten really good mentors there that that showed me, you know, I'd gone from you know being a geologist in the field, taking samples, buddy, mapping, um uh sitting on draw rigs, that sort of thing, to to you know, how do you start a company, how do you finance a company?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, where do you go from there?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that that was very, very helpful, and uh, you know, that I I owe those guys a massive debt.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we you know, together we started a number of companies that have been pretty successful over the years, yeah.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: So go going back to your years with Rio Tinto when you're in the field, you you touched on it just briefly there, you know, panning or drilling.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: And was was that like you're going in camping and I I would say I always think when somebody's prospecting, I think of uh the the gold miners going up to Dawson and everything, and they've got their hardtack and flour, whatever, and some bacon and hauling all their stuff in there.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm sure you had helicopters dropping you off or something like that.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: But are you just out out in the middle of nowhere and pretty hammering on rocks with a chisel before you bring the drill rigs in?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or pretty what level were you at?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, look, you we you know you start at the lowest of levels.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think um oh like uh when I was in Kalgooli working as a field assistant, there was a lot of just walking, taking samples, you know.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um probably my favourite job was doing geophysical surveys there.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: You put a you know box, a magnetometer on your back, and it's got a mass that with a the magnet you know magnetometer sensor at the top of that, and then a hip chain and a compass.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd try and walk about sort of twenty to twenty five miles a day, and I was getting paid by the meter.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: So just walk up, walk fifty yards that way and go, you know, another that way for five miles and take take uh uh a map gives you a magnetic map of of of that part of the earth's surface.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: So things like that.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: So what what do they use what are they looking for iron ore or what are what are they getting in the room?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: So so most of those geophysical techniques give you um give you a a bit of a view of the substrate, what what's below the soil there.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, for example example, a basaltic rock might be quite magnetic, it's got quite a lot of iron in it, um, whereas a granite will have a lot less on it.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it very good uh mapping tool if you like.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and also you can pick structures like faults and folds and things out in some of the the data there.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: So useful for that.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, so it was and it was went the my kids are a bit uh they're funny.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like we we we had a trailer and during COVID we um around that time when you could travel, we'd we we did a couple of laps at British Columbia, but my kids were always amused that I sort of reluctant these go days to go camping.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like lads, yeah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: I spent the bloody first 15 years of my career in a tent and not not in in a place you want to be, like having a bloody Atacama desert with dust and and sit getting wind uh sand blown the whole time.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you know, I'd never how much how much does that pack weigh?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh that one oh that wasn't too bad.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it was probably about oh, it would have been 30, 35 pounds or something.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you'd be doing 25 miles a day with 35, 40 pound pack.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was highly motivated because once I got above about I think it was six you know, I'm trying to convert from kilometres to miles, but after about seven kilometres I got paid X dollars per so I was you know making good money as if I got above that.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: The more you did, the higher the financial incentive.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it was wild, like I'm out there in the you know, somewhere I haven't been before, I've got a map and a compass and a hip chain to to to um that triggers the you know the sampling of the magnetometer every ten yards or so.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I'd be moving along as quick as I could to cover as much ground, and then you you you know you'd see a snake and just have to jump on over the snake and keep running and I'm out there by myself, so you certainly didn't want to get bitten by a snake in the middle of the desert.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a machete or an axe or anything like that if you had to take out a snake?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: No, not really, I just trusted my feet.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think I would now.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: So fit so 15 years just basically camping out in the wilderness looking for as you progress up that from so so you're no longer hiking with the magnetometer.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Are you overseeing drill rigs then?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to that that program, and that's um, you know, when I was in Chile, I spent a lot of time sort of organizing drill programs, managing drill programs.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I did didn't mind that sort of managerial aspect of it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, the thing I love is project generation, coming up with a concept or idea or model and a target, and then testing that target and see what you what what you get.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of yeah, it's fun.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Much better than uh than uh well, I enjoyed my time in the army, but um I don't think I I would have been cut out for a long-term career in that.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: So when you get yeah, the geology, you're still in geology, but you start going into the business side of this, you said you took that six million dollar company to a six billion dollar company.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: That was my party, so I that was my company.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't involved in that either that one there.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: So what how did your role change from magnetometer to working on it managing drill rigs?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're on the financial side of it.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: How does that shift and what are your duties shifting into on that?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Is it more knocking on doors trying to raise funds for the guy that's managing the drill rig now?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of that.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose it's sort of a natural transition you move into management, of course, um, which I enjoy.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Probably the favorite my My favourite thing these days is you know mentoring my team and the the people around me and and and you know spending time with them and watching them grow and learn and um yeah I really enjoy that aspect of it, particularly when you get some high potential people like here and Haynes um Nicole Dean who's running our our project up there at Palmer, uh the the exploration part of the project and the logistics, she is tremendous, super high uh potential person, and she's doing a fantastic job and you know for her having the budget now to go and do what she does best is you know I love that, giving giving that sort of being able to be involved and giving that sort of opportunity to the you know brilliant young people.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um that fills me up more than anything.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: But um Yeah, I sort of went from you know to the management side of things and then very, very quickly um yeah, went out and you know, sort of with with Owen Heggerty particularly as my mentor, showed me the ropes around, you know, how do you talk to bankers, you know, if you're doing a deal personally, what to look for, what sort of things to do, um, you know, uh where to go to look for capital.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that all sort of um uh came on pretty quickly for me.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think we started our first first company after I left Rio Tinto in about 2008.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and just been doing that ever since.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:23
  unknown: Yeah.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so the just for the the people like me that don't understand how a lot of this works, the companies that you're working with, like Vissla Copper now, you're out there, you're you're raising money, yep, and then you're looking for opportunities that somebody else has either found or slightly developed, and there's enough potential there for you to jump in, do more work, bring it to the next stage.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that correct?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Although we do, you know, at our sort of group company uh that that that is sits over the top of uh things a bit, um it's uh we we we tend to we we we sort of cover like if you look at the spectrum of of the business, you know, it's all the way from pro when it comes to the mineral deposit at least, like there's so many different parts of it, you know.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's sort of permitting, there's a legal, there's the government relations bit, and you know, I I can say we just we we flew down and um Governor Dunlevy was was kind enough to spend an hour with us today, or 45 minutes with us today, which was absolutely fantastic.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there's all those different bits of it.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: For a geologist, you know, you the bit that I see is the the project generation you know going, where are we gonna go to find this type of mineral deposit?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: All the way through to you know, testing that idea, you know, if you make a discovery resource drill out and and beyond into you know potentially development.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Although I think you know, my understanding there is that about one in ten thousand projects that are generated.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is a you know data that I I we sort of got at Rio Tinto, one in ten thousand projects that are generated might turn into a mine.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: One in ten thousand.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: One in ten thousand, so you have to kiss a lot of frogs, like you you you never never know really.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there's sort of um yeah, l a lot of frog kissing goes on in this business.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of wasted capital.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pretty inefficient business for for use of capital in that sense.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's a good idea.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And is is that in return?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so this I've been reading a book, a friend gave me a book on the on the Juneau gold field.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Back in the late 1800s and 1900s, I think it was Redmond was the author of it.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: But he catalogued all of the mine all the mines in Juneau at that time.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: And reading that because they'll somebody will find gold, and all these guys stake it, and they'll do a two they you know, with hand drills and dynamite, they'll do like 2,000-foot tunnel or 6,000-foot tunnel, and they're doing kind of the same thing your grandpa's doing.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Running the irrigation and everything to get water to things, and then it doesn't pan out.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: What the heck?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yeah, yeah.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: How do people keep when you keep knocking on doors when it's one in ten thousand, it's like, hey, we think we've got a winner here, and they're like, Well, you know, last 400 haven't worked out.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's and and look, there's it's gotta be hard to keep that's a yeah, it's a tough business.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, you've got to be passionate, I think, to to do it because it can because it not only do you have those, you know, l a lot of geologists will go through their life and never find a thing, you know.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be soul destroying in a way.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then the business is cyclical as well.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: So when I joined Rio Tinto, you I I think Rio Tinto the years before were typically employing 40-50 geologists straight out of university into the company.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was the one geologist that was lucky to get a role with them that year.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it was fantastic in that, you know, they moved me around the world.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I got to work with an extraordinary group of uh of people, some of the most, you know, brilliant geological minds, guys like Paul Agnew there in Melbourne, who, you know, best exploration geochemist I've ever come across.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, I got got to meet all of those people.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was a c a company at the time that, you know, had a good sense of camaraderie, fraternity.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that you know, it was a good and and they moved me around.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I I think, you know, today I've worked in over 70 countries.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: So so that, you know, I it's been like my life's been a little bit of a boy's own adventure, uh, and I love that.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and then the cyclical nature of the business, I suppose um 2000 to 2011, good period, of course.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: The global financial crisis mud muddied that up a little bit in between, but um that was a good time for metal prices and a great time to raise capital.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then 2012-13 came along and everything fell off a cliff.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, really, our industry's just been so hamstrung.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one of the issues we've got right at the moment that's emerged from the the depth and scale of this downturn we've been through um has has been uh quite devastating for the industry in a way.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're starting to see much higher metal prices, but we're gonna see much, much higher metal prices because we haven't been able to fund and do all of that work.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, to take a project from project generation initial drilling to development in Canada typically takes 17 years now, so you have to be able to survive through the cycles.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's a brutal business in that sense.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's pretty tough, so you've got to be passionate about it to stick it out.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: So do you think is is it with the one in 10,000 figure, is a lot of that because the initial thought on it when we f they somebody finds us and then it's like it just doesn't it just doesn't play out that there's not enough minerals there?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's does it get to a point where permitting's too onerous?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: What are the major to me it looked like that there's not enough ore or it's not as much as they thought, so the cost of recovery is too high, permitting is permitting is too onerous and it doesn't justify the cost that they might be extracting off of it, it's too remote or it's too environmentally sensitive area.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: Are there other other things that are missing on that?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or too deep or the grades too low, um the ore body might be too complex, uh you you know, those sort of um, you know, there's you you've got the technical, the commercial, and then the sort of logistical and and permitting government government uh government sort of side of things.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it can be any one of those things, but I think right at the front, you know, you come up with a concept and test a target.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we're you know, I I I would say probably ten percent of those turn into technical successes.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you find what you're looking for, like if you're looking for a porphyry copper deposit, which you know the bulk of the world's copper is produced on.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's a few big ones over the way here in in British Columbia and of course up in in in the the uh out of the panhandle in Alaska.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so if you find one of those that's great, but then it won't have anything in it.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I found a few of those.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, when I was kicking around Chile, I there was a thing there.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: The the world's I think biggest, oh second biggest copper mine, Chukikamata.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I worked at the end of that week at Rio Tinto had some ground and we drilled some holes.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we found a porphyry system, no worries about that.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Porphyry rocks, you know, intrusive um type rocks, but no copper.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of epidite, so I found a world-class epidite deposit.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm guessing the epidite value is not nearly as high as copper.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Precisely zero.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: So as you're moving forward, because you're you're in Haynes because Vistla Copper this last winter bought the rates for the Palmer Project.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Or did you bought Constantine or under a bunch of different names, and so Dow was with a partner with Constantine and they backed out.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now Vissla Copper is Yeah, so so we bought, yeah, and that's right.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think we bought Constantine, the entity that owns the project.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so that that was good.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: We've got some other projects in British Columbia as well.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're drilling down there at the moment.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, so we and and uh we we've been looking at the project for a couple of years.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: We've we've sort of, you know, there are there is a lot to like about it in terms of, you know, it's I the the my the average mined grade of copper around the world is about 0.5% copper.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Palmer project's sort of uh between three and four percent, you know, some of it.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you you're almost an order of magnitude higher grade than the mines.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that the than the other mines around the average of the other mines around the planet.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that you know that that makes your ears prick up.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this is an interesting looking project.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, so so we we went ahead, we raised 44 million dollars back in uh December there.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: So um and uh yeah, yeah, we're moving ahead to it's still early days, you know.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's a an advanced exploration project.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: We know that there's a deposit there, but what is it?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: How you know what does it look like?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got a lot of work to do.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um quite a bit of drilling and a lot of analysis and things to do there before you know we know what we've got, whether it, you know, it may never be a mine type of thing.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: It might it might be.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um if if if things play out the right way, but it it may never, and so that sort of gets back to that, you know, one in ten thousand become a mine.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, it's a tricky, tricky business in that sense.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: So for a non-geologist, non-miner, they've been pretty regular since what about 2009 working on that's right, yeah.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of 2009 that they update its like Meryl Palmer found it in the late 60s, early 70s, didn't he?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: That was a while ago, but they've first started doing stuff.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Seems like you guys are the not you, but everybody up to this point drilled a lot of holes up there.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like there's a lot of footage of holes being drilled.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: How what what percentage of the way do you think you are to having a good understanding of what's there?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, look, I I think you know, there's a deposit there, there's lenses have been found and defined.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's a lot more to f to find there, I think.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't really know, you know, what it is, how big it could be.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it looks like there's been a lot of drilling there, but it's not enough.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: One of the challenges here, of course, is the very short um.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you only got a few months.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, through the water.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking beforehand snow it was snowing up there.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that's right.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you you know, that is a major constraint and um you know it's sort of impossible to manage in a way.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is all this is what you can work with.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: So so you you you deal the hand you're given in on in that sense, I think, and and make a go of it.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, I'm excited.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're we're out there drilling at the moment.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've got um we've we've got some fantastic targets.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: I you you're always hopeful of making a discovery.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's an interesting aspect of the business, you know.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've been very fortunate to have been involved in a few discoveries, and when I I think about a couple of them, you know, it makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck when you when you sort of um you have a bit of success in that treasure hunt that the business is.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, so you talk about a discovery here.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know there's a deposit there.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: What what would you term a discovery that would raise the hair in the back of your necks up here?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is that just a a pocket of really high concentration or something in an area that you didn't expect it?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: How does that end up being exactly, exactly, and and I suppose you know it's a big area up there.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of but you can see it's interesting when you drive around here, you can see alteration.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you sort of sort of see if you've got a grey body of rock and you've got some colouring in there, yellow, red types of things, that's often alteration associated with the mineralogy and the metal, odd the metal that's in the rock, um, you know, often rusting out sort of thing.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: And there you see it everywhere.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot going on there, but um, yeah, I think we've got quite a bit of work to do before we really know what we've got there.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and then, you know, that then guides you as to how you advance the project or whether you advance the project.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of a lot of hurdles we have to see the project get through before we um before anything else happens other than just sort of uh simple exploration work at this point in time.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but always, you know, you'd you'd like to think that that you will discover enough there that will become an economic project.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh um we're not there yet, but uh but who knows, you know, we we'll give it a go.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: So how the the people the the the question I think a lot of people in Haynes, yeah, how long does that take?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well yeah, that's and it's I know I'm putting I know I know there's no way for you to physic to actually answer well, this we're gonna know in five years or six years.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it's because it's it seems like people it's been going on for a long time.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: It keeps people like, well, it's gonna be ten years, it's gonna be ten years, and each year it's ten years, it's ten years, ten to fifteen years kind of keeps getting to be the time frame.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and again, you know, I think part of the trouble is that the Constantine um, you know, they did very, very good technical work, but uh they really acquired the project and we're trying to advance it during this terrible downturn we've been through.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it just wasn't capital available.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and we see a lot of projects like that.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of our projects, the Wood Jam Project in British Columbia.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: A big porfry system, there's about two uh two billion pounds of copper there, nearly a million ounces of gold proven up, you know, much lower grade than we see here, down at sort of about 0.4% copper equivalent.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um project that's had up until 2013 had about a hundred million dollars spent on it, and then the following years it had like a you know, maybe two hundred thousand dollars each year spent on it.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: They might have drilled one or two holes.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that really slows you up um that sort of downturn.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that you know it's it's things like that that have issues.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the you know, I wouldn't speak specifically about this, the the Palmer project and how long that would take to advance into production and permitting.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, generally these days, um, going from a project that has a resource but more drilling work to do, more targets to test, more exploration potential, that's that will take you one to five years, I suppose.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um but if you if if you can do that relatively quickly, well then you you go into the study phases and you do a what's called a preliminary economic assessment, a PEA.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um that will be a sort of year-long process.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: That will often lead into a pre-feasibility study, um, and that's more like a one to two year process, and the full feasibility study comes out of that, so that's another year on top of that.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: All the way along you're doing permitting.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think in this day and age, um, you know, in in most jurisdictions, it's going to take you at least from the stage we're at to produ or to development, five to ten years, and then production, you know, development of projects.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: A two-year pro two year timeline.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you're a long way away from yeah, that that's right.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you've got to, you know, of course, um you need to order um all the various sort of components of the project, the capital components of the project, like you know, mills and steel and and uh trucks and diggers and loaders and those sorts of things.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: So all of that takes time.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a le if you yeah, it's sort of um I think you know, guys like investors that people really respect, like Warren Buffett and the like, won't have anything to do with investing in the industry because you can you your returns are very um can be very lumpy or non-existent.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of uh yeah, it's a it's a different i the closest thing that I can compare our business to, particularly the exploration side of things, is probably like pharmaceutical research and development.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you you know, they're the they're taking putting in capital, putting in a concept, testing a a drug, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know very rarely are they big hit drugs like Ozampic or the like, and and that's the same in this business.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: So looking at it on the financial aspect, if the hit rate is so low and the cost of investment to find out on a lot of these is so high, when they hit you when when you go for when you go forward, there needs to be a significant return that that's on that.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and there are we we talk about in our business, there's you can Google something called the La Sonde curve.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, although my m my friend Peter Brown likes to say that he came up with it first, so we'll call it the Brown or Brown LaSonde curve.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Peter, hello and and so you you know it's the value curve of the mining sector, and from left going from left to right, you you you've got you know the early days when there's no value from a project, then you make a discovery and it jumps up very quickly.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that you know great fortunes have been made at that point of discovery, and then it curves up as you advance the the project through exploration um uh and and beyond and prove that you've got a a project of value, the value of that project hopefully grows, and then you go into that um the studies and permitting phase, and often that can be a very value um uh destroying phase because you're spending a lot of money um on very expensive things, you know, you know, metallurgists and engineers and the like like to charge an arm and a leg.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh you know, you've got the all of that that can be very, very uh expensive, and then the permitting, you've got the uncertainty around that, and so often the value of the project will drop then until it's back into development and in production, and then you see that hopefully if the project's worthy, and this is something that we get wrong as an industry pretty regularly, will reach its maximum value at that point in time.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's probably out beyond ten years from when you start to start the process.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's a yeah, it's a funny sort of business, fascinating sort of business.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I I've sort of focused my career just being a geologist and an exploration geologist.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've been very you know, I love that element of it.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: I like coming up with an idea and going out and t you know, raising some capital and going testing that thesis and hopefully making a discovery.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh but you you know we've we've now built up in our within our business under Simon Smerlich and Mike Connet, my partners.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, Simon's probably you know one of the most successful mine builders of all time.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've we've got the capability to do that very well now as well.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but but I I much prefer the the sort of boots on the ground exploration side of things, it's um it's uh it's yeah it's more fun.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: So with with the when you were looking at the the Palmer project with Constantine, you originally said you'd you'd looked at the the percentage of copper and uh stuff like that.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: Was it was there any factor in there on where it was in the in the from discovery to permitting aspect?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: Did that play?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: Or was it just like man, this is three.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think when you look at those things from that perspective, it's probably the intersection of of price and opportunity.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, the there um we were happy to pay that price because we saw the potential of the project, but um but now you've got to you know you you have to spend a lot of money and a lot of time figuring it out and and advancing it, um, and that's an expensive process.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there they're I suppose the price was right.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: We were happy to pay what we paid.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, you're always assessing the risks, the the balance of the potential risks and rewards, so we thought that uh that equation wasn't too bad in that case.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: But um and we, you know, up to this point, oh god, since um since about 2010 we've we've looked at a desktop scale at least at pretty much every copper project on the planet, over 5,000 of them as a team.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh what the things that we've learned from from that are that there aren't many good ones out there, and and that will translate eventually to much higher copper prices.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh and high grade projects this in this day and age very, very rare.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so you you know ideally you want to focus on those, but they're pretty hard to come by.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think Alaska's a great place to explore as well.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: We are looking at other things uh across Alaska and uh we're pla seeing plenty of you know untapped potential or or or or or things that have been found or identified that haven't been fully followed up.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the things this downturn uh we've been through uh means is that there's a lot of good work done back in sort of 2000 to 2013, and then the industry just stopped, it it died almost completely.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone comes.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see that on an uptick now that there's starting to be more investment in in minerals?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, and and you're seeing that that it translates.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: Is that due to is that due to prices or what what what's changed?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh for sure, for sure.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and and it's taken, you know, you you've seen gold hit all-time highs, silver hit all-time highs, copper's sitting up pretty close to its all-time high at the moment.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that meant, you know, investors are enthused again, they're starting to get good returns, although the market still looks to me to be very uh very, very undervalued.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that this bull market that we're in at the moment will go for a very long time.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, a lot of sort of mining executives will tell you all about the demand side.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I don't really know much about it.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you you know, we're having serious grid challenges around the world, data center um development and demand for copper.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I should say, you know, for copper, for example, uh in my mind it is the most important metal on the planet.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like the lights don't humans essentially can't live without copper.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the lights come on, they don't come on, you know, it it affects everything, so it's the the most important conductive metal uh in the world.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so um and we've been through a phase where there hasn't been capital.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um permitting projects is much more onerous or and rigorous uh than it than h historically.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the mines around the world, um the bigger producing mines, have been going for a very long time.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: They're long in the tooth.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: They they went through expansions during that last boomer phase of the market and they're starting to trail off.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that we we are in a uh a heck of a lot of trouble as a society um because we haven't been able to advance these projects and find that and deliver that metal to those customers.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think at the back end of this decade we're we're gonna be in a very difficult position where there simply isn't enough metal out there and you'll that will result in extraordinarily high prices.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: And as Rick Rule, our you know legendary mining investor Rick Rule says, um the cure for high prices is high prices eventually people stop paying and their substitution comes in.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: But um I think we're in for a very interesting time in the sector because of you know no one's done that work for the past 15 years.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing that's emerging that I find interesting as well is that because of the cyclical nature of the business, what you know often what companies do will is you know they'll keep a lot of grey haired people for their corporate memory, um, but but sack that gut that middle tier of management and even some of the junior people.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean so what what's emerging now is a y you know, not enough people to run projects, run very, very hard to find a driller these days, um very hard to find uh you know mine operators and the like.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them are retiring now.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know that's a real opportunity for kids that in this day and age.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know, you know, talking to my kids there, you know, I've got a boy Riley who's 19 and Darcy's 16.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: And they're you know, we talk a lot about AI, and I think there seems to be a bit of a quite a bit of fear amongst kids in this day and age about the impacts of AI and you know what that will mean for the job market.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: But what I can tell you is there's no substitute for boots on the ground geology.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: You need engineers, you need mining engineers, you need miners, you need drillers.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I think that that um and you need metal, and certainly this data centres and EV revolution is driving further metal demand.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, it's not a bad place for a kid to look for a a job these these days, and it you know, particularly if you don't mind living in pretty unusual places and traveling a lot.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: So as you as you develop the Palmer Project going forward, got a lot more drilling to go.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Is there still plans for because a few years ago the plan was to put a tunnel underground so you could be doing exploration year-round?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: Is that still part of the plan?
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's look, it's definitely in the thinking.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: We hit we've certainly not committed to anything, um, and I think we've got a ways to go before we would uh decide to to go down that route.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if this drill program proves up proves successful and we find more pods of that mineralization, then perhaps we'll look at that.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, I think we're a long way away from you know, at least a year away from making any sort of decision like that.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: And if say everything turns out like you want it to, and it's like feasibility, you get your permit, you're moving forward with a mine.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of what kind of tonnage of ore on a weekly or monthly basis are you producing that you're going to be shipping out of Haynes?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not holding you to that, that this is just shooting off the cuff.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then I think you know the reason I'm asking is because a lot of people with LouTac Doc, we need this place for an ore transfer facility and things like that.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: To have a better idea for people knowing how much stuff's getting shipped out of here.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: What's what's that looking like?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and the answer is who knows?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: Look, y you know, what I can say is that um we like that's what we're trying to answer now.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well we what does this project actually look like?
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: What's the what does the ore body or what do the ore bodies um look like?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that that will inform us.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: There was a PEA done on the project uh back in about 2018-19.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: I take that with a grain of salt, because you know, they still didn't know what the ore body looked like at that point in time.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that that was done way too early.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: But you you know, if you if you look at um a good example of a a small scale successful, and I think I flew over it twice today, um well-run mine is the Kensington mine just down there on the way to Juneau, you know, and that's a modest scale mine.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so do you see the Palmer Project closer in scale to Kensington or Green Street?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's it's never gonna be a big mine.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more even if it even if Kensington even if it becomes a mine, it's never gonna be a big mine, yeah.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's all it always gonna be small.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the way of the future, I think, you know.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um like I think a lot of people think that mining, you know, people put posters up and things of um huge open pit mines in Brazil or Australia in the Western Australia that move, you know, I think Rio Tinto moves about four hundred million tonnes of iron ore in Western Australia a year.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: 400 million tons.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: The trains they have there are the biggest trains on the planet, multiple locomotives, they're up to four miles long, hauling huge amounts.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's that type of mining.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Is this that's open pit?
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: Open pit mining.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: How long are they how how big a hole do they have?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh there's one there, um oh god, probably ten miles long by actually the biggest pit that I've been to is Chukikamata, the big copper mine in Chile there.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's about now twelve miles long by about a mile deep and and a mile and a half wide, sort of thing.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: So my gosh.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know I I I think like that's great bulk mining if you need big tons and China needs big tons.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: 400 million tons.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll the majority of that's all going to China from Chile and Australia.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that's that's right, that's right, yeah, for sure.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of that copper around Chile goes to to Japan.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: These are very big things.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's a better way, I think, and it's about building smaller.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: The mine of the future, small scale, and I I look I don't know too much about Kensington, but the little bit I've seen I've been very, very impressed.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, the mine of the future, underground, very small footprint.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like that that mine is is basically three pods that are each the size size of a modest industrial park, you know, that you might see down here.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I I think that that's the way of the future is to to to do these things in a much more sustainable way in a smaller scale way, where you're very, very tight environmental um monitoring parameters and and and advancing that way.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: So to give you the context, so Rio Tinto is actually shipping 400,000 tonnes of metal a year.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well Palmer's only uh 400 million tonnes, sorry.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um the whole Palmer resource is 18 million tonnes at the moment.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's uh you know, the whole deposit is is is so much smaller than that.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you can build, you know, you can you you can build a much better outcome, I think, for everyone involved by taking that approach and looking at those sorts of projects.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: So there's advantage there.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and part of that too is that I want to get into one of the concerns of people in the community is that there's going to be these ore trucks that are going to be going to the dock that, like up at Red Dog, where they don't have a cover on them, you get the ore dust alongside the roads and everything.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: And when I've when I've talked to people at Kensington before, that the way they ship it is at the mine, they put it in the the Super Saks, the one-ton Super Saks, they put it in an enclosed container, and then they bring it down and put it on the barge.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a is that with the ore body that you're talking about and the size, does that sound like an a way?
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not holding you into anything, I'm not gonna tell you no, and again, I can I can speak more generally about it, but the what I what I can tell you is that red dog today would not get permit permitted that way.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you you have to do things in a way that that you know will get you your permit, and that you know that's simply not gonna be the case to do that.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: So containerizing, concentrating the like is is uh you know, that is the way of the future.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: You have to do it.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: So in the you started in mining in 2009, right?
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: 2008, 2009, you started you started doing the uh or was it my own things, yeah.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: They started in 99.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, so starting 99 is a bit before.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: Looking at the permitting and the way these mines are operating compared to 27 years ago to now, what are the biggest changes you're seeing in how this is being what you have to do to be permitted in just in the last 27 years, not not to mention 50, 60 years ago what things were being permitted?
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good good good question.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: And because it seems so many things over time you get better at doing things.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_02: Totally, totally.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and look rightly so, like I you you know, the mining industry gets singled out because we have had some um over the years some terrible outcomes, but what industry hasn't?
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I think the mining industry's done a very good job of it was a a very dangerous industry.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and you've got to sort of differentiate this is one of the the the issues I have is that you know we outsource a lot of our uh sourcing of metal, our metal production, to places where there aren't stringent standards.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so you you you know, if our phones have got cobalt that have been mined by children in the Congo, there's no getting away from that.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: Do I think we should do that?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's disgraceful.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we we we we must do better on on that front.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so in terms of permitting, look yeah, the every element of it has become more stringent, um, you know, particularly around consultation, uh, groundwater management, um, tailings management.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at Greens Creek, for example, they've moved to dry stack tailings.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're looking more and more at pace fill and putting that material back underground, so you you end up with a very highly remediated site.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and of course the science is evolving all the time as well, whether it be you know, particularly environmental science and and and and biological sciences and so you know we're much better uh uh aware of the issues that we should be addressing.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll come back to that safety point, you know.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you go back to when I started out as a field assistant in Western Australia in 1993, you know, there was we we had a uh geologist there that used to wear flip-flops around a drill rig.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, these days we pride ourselves on very, very stringent and flip-flops.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: Flip flops.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: Flip-sop.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: We call them thongs in Australia.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and so yeah, you know, and uh the industry sort of you know was always perceived, particularly underground mining, as a very, very dangerous sector, and it doesn't need to be that way, and so we've made massive strides in the last 30 and 40 years to become a much safer industry, and now we look at the timber and construction industries and go, pick your game up, guys.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you're well aware, the main pushback to the mine, the a potential mine at the Palmer Project, yeah, is it is sitting right next to the Chilcat River, where you've got a large concentration of eagles, you've got five species of salmon coming up in that.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: And how are we how are we making sure that we're not gonna destroy that that process or that that abundance of of natural resources that feeds not only our community, but also we sell that to other people, and a lot of people make a m make a living off of that.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: I know totally.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and so that's that's the question you're gonna get hit with all the time, and it's important to so some people raise it more, but I I think it's important to all of us that live here that if this goes through, we want to make sure that this is being done at the highest level.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's right, and that's why you you you you know we have regulations now and very stringent regulations.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: We have consultation, you you know, so um but you know, as I say, projects like this, if you go down and look at Kensington, modest scale, very well managed, um you you can deliver strong outcomes.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um Heckler's Greens Creek down there, of course, a big employer in this this region, huge contributor economically, socially, um uh, you know, very you know, well-run projects.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: So um you can manage all those things and you have to.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: You have to.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: We you can't advance a project without having uh the the work done, you know, the the data gathered, the analysis, the the you know, the response to those findings around your project, you're never gonna get it built, you're never gonna move ahead with it.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you have to manage it right.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a you know, it's it's on us as an industry and as managers um to do that, or otherwise, there are serious consequences.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: So la last month Peter made a presentation of the Alaska Miners Association, the Haynes branch, and I was up at that and listening to him.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that I hadn't heard before that he was mentioning is the idea of because you've got your acid rock drainage, that's what every that's what everybody's most worried about.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_02: That you take these tailings out, that with the climate we have around here, there's a lot of precipitation, whether in liquid form or snow form in the winter time.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then if there's if there's an issue with that, that that's going to be the contamination that gets into the water source and and and harms that.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_02: But he was talking about looking at a way to grade that, the the waste material, the the tailings, and the stuff that's the that would be the most susceptible to the asteroid draining, prioritize that going back in as a fill before the other.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: I hadn't yet heard that before.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I say does that work, yeah, when well and when I say the science has evolved, that's right.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can schedule those sorts of things and un and and and work that out.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you you you start with the project, you drill it out, and this is why you need so many drill holes.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: You need all of that data.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: Not only are you taking assays for the metal, but you're also logging logging um uh the rock types, the structures, so you're building up a picture of what's under the ground, a 3D model of what's under the ground, the different rock types, the different structures, and and how they will all impact things.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: So you know you know, Pete wasn't speaking specifically about this project.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's always worth remind reminding everyone, it's not a mine.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: It might be one day, you know, but um, but we're a long way away from that.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um Kensington and Greens Creek, of course, are mines, uh, and there's been a lot of you know historic mining here in in the region.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, that's what sort of opened up the region, I suppose.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so um you know there's also an environmental cleanup aspect to to what we do as well.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you go back into an old mine that's been poorly managed, you know, you have to do the remediation.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, part of this going back to old projects that have been formal or past producing mines gives you gives you an opportunity to do that.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm you know, I'm I'm uh very proud of you know some of the projects I've been involved with in that we're doing all of that and working with First Nations um uh communities and and nations themselves to to deliver good outcomes.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you you know you've got to do that work, you've got to build up your knowledge of the project, you've got to do all of that scientific work before before you you work that out.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, there are processes and ways of doing that for sure.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: And because and and part of that, and the reason I asked you about the the changes over the last 27 years, yeah, is because if you've got another roughly 10 years before this could be a mine, probably at the earliest, yeah, you know, you're seven, maybe you're seven to fifteen years out.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_02: If there's been some significant changes in the last twenty-seven, there's the potential for more improvements over the next 10 years.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's true.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_02: 15 years to how I I think the there's some reasons the mining industry gets a bad rap, and some of it's well deserved because there's things in the past that totally unacceptable shouldn't be done.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think a a lot of mining doesn't get the credit for the changes that they've made.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I think to do it better as well.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_02: That you get beat up for the bad stuff that was done 60 years ago, and you've changed the the regulations have changed, the mining procedures have changed.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that's right.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's that's a uh you know a fair thing to say for sure.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know Yeah, we can do it better, and we are starting well we have we have been doing these things much better.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think we're on the right track, at least in the US, in Canada, in Australia.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh but yeah, I I can tell you the places that aren't doing it well, if you go to the Congo, if you go to parts of China, um you know, their practices are still you know not up to stuff.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: So so in a way I suppose we export some of our problems to to other countries by getting that metal from you.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: That example of um cobalt um being mined by children in the Congo is a terrible outcome for the planet as far as I'm concerned.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um but that you know that's my personal perspective.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it it n you know the the the the the regulatory framework here I think in Alaska and the US is is very stringent.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so um you know you're simply not going to get a project permitted unless you can guarantee that you do those things right.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if you get it wrong it's a disaster.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you will pay and your shareholders will pay and everyone pays.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we we we've we've come a long way as an industry.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's still a ways to go, but you know, we've made massive inroads in road.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I think like if you compare us to some of the some other industries, like I mentioned, logging, um a modest mind is not going to have as much an impact on the the the um the landscape as as as as logging, you know.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh urban environments, the construction industry, I think that they've come a long way as well, but there's always improvements to made and be made in every everything you do for sure.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now as as with Vissla Copper, you don't operate mines.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: You just you just develop the you you go in develop the resource that's been found or find a resource, develop to a certain stage, and then you'll at what stage are you looking for a buyer to come in and and mine that or how do how does that process work?
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: We we do like to if if the project meets our investment criteria, we do like to build them ourselves and we've been doing that on a few other a few other projects around the world recently.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and I should say, look, in in the in the example of Viesla Copper, what I'm trying to do there, or what we're trying to do, is build up a pipeline of projects.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um now, you know, we're Palmer's there, we are working at any given time on a number of other acquisitions.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, usually they a bit like expiration fail.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um because it's often a competitive process or something goes wrong with it, and you know, the vendors' um price expectations are so too high.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we are but we've got a great pipeline of of of very good projects.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um we'd love to add to that because you never know uh what's going to happen with a project.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's always risks around it.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you you know having having that uh ability to choose and and focus on a particular project that that might might sort of uh emerge as a much better candidate for a development project uh is is where I sort of want to head.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we continue to kick the tires on a lot of projects around the world.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're looking at at things um uh in particularly in the Americas.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we we continue down that path.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one way of us managing our risk as well for our shareholders.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_02: So you s depends on what happens on I mean, does this go do you go to the feasibility stage with this and then try and get it to somebody that mines it and keep a sh keep a a pr share of it, or how does when you when you go to the next step, how does that work for Miss Laker?
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody comes in and says, here's a check, chiching, or do you keep a percentage going forward so you get some of the profits off of it as they're mining?
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a sort of hard question to answer in a way because it's you you know it's a sort of horses for courses type of thing in it.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um like sometimes being a publicly listed company, if someone comes over and makes a takeover bid, we'll resist that um because we want to continue with our strategy of advancing our projects, but sometimes they don't give you an option.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're not there yet, you know, we're not seeing you know aggressive uh uh action.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um but no, my my vision at the moment is that uh like I would love to buy a producing copper mine.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and um you know that gets us a part of the way there to to to you know, a little personal mission I've got is to to try and build a mid-tier copper producer.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_01: I've been successful in exploration thankfully, um on uranium, uh, gold, silver.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I've never never never had any any luck in building a copper business.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd like to find a producing asset.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's this could be it.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well yeah, but see that sort of you know, you go back to that, well, this could be, you know, eight to twenty years before it's in production.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that doesn't really scratch that itch for me.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, we we are out there looking at uh at other areas as well.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it's the I guess the point I was making is this might not be the first, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that you guys take this into the mining phase.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no that that that's you know that that would be um you know that's certainly an objective, but again, we don't know what we've got.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: We've got all that drilling to do and all of that that that um you know data collection and analysis before we really we really know.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and I suppose, you know, what I'm highlighting there is that there are risks at every stage, and so you know it goes back to that sort of wanting ten thousand becoming mine.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_02: So how how this is your second trip to Haynes?
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_01: It is, yeah, only my second, as I say, I drove through Alaska here um in 1996, all across Alaska, uh and and loved it, although back then I was a bit more terrified of bears and giant mosquitoes.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh yeah, yeah, so we came up You're not terrified of bears now?
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh less so they still scare me.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_02: I've been here for a long time.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's a healthy regard for them, uh if anyone It's a scary hump humpback brown ones around here that absolutely terrify me.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, being Australian, I've I'm less scared of snakes and pretty scared of bears.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: But um um sorry, what we're moving.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_02: I guess this is your second trip.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you guys are you own the project.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Are we gonna see a lot of Craig in town?
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_02: Is that gonna be part of the are is it still Peter that's gonna be meeting with people, explaining the objectives, trying to build a little more community uh buy-in on this, or is Craig gonna be part of that?
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Some of the other partners gonna be coming here for part of that?
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's a yeah, that's a good question.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: The um, you know, we've got such a fantastic team here, Pete and Nicole, and you know, all the all the other people that work with this, like Sean Dog and Nick from Sieve has sort of helped us, and you know, so we um so I'm I'm very comfortable with with Pete and Nicole and the team leading the charge there, and they'll you know they they're more the the regular face of the company here, certainly.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: But gee, I came up here with my wife and uh her brother back in March.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_01: We were sponsored, we're trying to do a lot in the community or as much as we can with the the the money we've got and the time and um being selective about opportunities.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've sort of helped um with some funding for the the swimming pool and we're looking at potentially helping with the the the bus out to 30 uh 32, 33 mile.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we're looking at all those sorts of opportunities and and and and where we can you know be a more engaged and more sort of um uh beneficial immediate member of the community.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know I I I don't I think we've got about 35 employees out there at the moment on the project.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_01: So they've all got you know um well-paying, safe, and interesting jobs there at the moment.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that that's that's great.
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, we're always looking for sort of new opportunities to to sort of get get more involved in that front.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose when I came up here in March, we were here we we were sp a modest sponsor of the the um uh the the skiing, the free ride, free ride world tour.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um interestingly enough, a friend of mine, Dave Gokin, his son Marcus, is uh a competitor in that he won last year.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh really?
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, he won last year.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he didn't do so well up there this year, but um uh and and being in Aussie who learned to ski at twenty-two, I'm an enthusiastic but not a great skier.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um but anyway, I I do I f I fell in love with skiing thanks to that original mentor, Rick Gates, and um giving us that opportunity to go skiing in New Zealand.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we came up and we you know I really wanted to see the project, so we spent a a bit of time up there.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, the weather then closed into us, so we got a good fly around and a good look at the project and some of the elements of it.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then the weather closed in and it didn't stop snowing for for the ten days we were here.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Doug, I've I've got to I've got to confess and apologize, I didn't get to down here and visit your incredible store.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I w I wish I had, but we'll be regular customers now.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're welcome at any time.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome at any time.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, look I we fell in love with the place.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's just a stunningly beautiful place that people have been nothing but lovely, tremendous, yeah, welcoming and and warm.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I don't know, I uh yeah, Nora and I are seriously thinking about you know spending a good chunk of our time up here perhaps buying a place.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you can see with what you're talking about and how stunning it is and how it's that people that have lived here a long time, how protective they are of it, and why you're getting the pushback that you are, that they want to make sure that what's being done, yeah.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_02: We we we highly value the the air, the land, the water, the fish.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many people with a subsistence lifetime with the berries, the the salmon, the moose meat, and everything, and and that that's it it's extremely important to the whole community.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that love of this place is is why you have the the the pushback that you have on the project is yeah, they care.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting you say pushback, because I suppose you know I've talked to a lot of people and I I I I get the impression that a lot of people are screaming out for opportunity and and and for employees.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's both.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you sort of, you know, um I I I guess um Kensington looks to me like I don't know enough about the history to really comment, but I I you know I think that that looks to be a project that's well integrated with the community and the area it's in.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Both Kensington and Greenscreek have quite a number of employees from Haynes that go down.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Is that right?
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, both of them, yeah.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_02: A few years ago, I think the number between both of them was was around 50.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a significant amount of revenue that comes off of the mining in into Haynes to just not write in Haynes.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, gotcha.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's between Kensington and Greenscreek.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_02: And those numbers could have fluctuated, it might be less, it might be more.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_02: I know a few people in the last few years have have left Haynes um that work they still work at the mines.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but it was easier for them to get to Juneau from uh Texas or Florida than from Haynes.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because when it starts for 10 days, the fair doesn't always work, right?
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so they're like, Well, if I'm gonna be missing days, I'd rather spend the time with my family instead of in a hotel in Juneau and not being able to get home to Haynes.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so they've gone other other places.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, gotcha.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think there's a from my conversations with friends and people that come in the store, uh there's people that are adamantly against the mine, potential mine at any cost.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_02: There's others that don't care.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, they just want a job in town.
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I and I think there's a blend in the middle that they're looking for the employment opportunities.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_02: That would be that would be great.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_02: But they also have concerns not over not only environmental, but social concerns that if this if you have a huge influx of people, is that gonna be a huge influx for five years, for 10 years?
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because at some point the ore body's gonna be.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's just isn't something that keeps going.
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you know, Greens Creek originally I thought that was gonna be 10 years, and it's been what 40 years that it's been running, then they've still got 10 years of reserves.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't you don't know what that's gonna be, but there's an uncertainty with people about do we what if we build up a bunch of instruct infrastructure, build a new school, and two years and two years later the mine closes could run out of ore.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's that uncertainty that I think the majority of people fit into that uncertainty of how is this going to affect our current way of life.
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Look, and and in business, that's of course always the way.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like you, you know, if something else came along, like you, you know, the tourism industry, you know, grew exponential very rapidly.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've got to be able to do that.
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing, a lot of people don't want it to go that big.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the fear, the fear of the unknown.
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_02: You don't know how it's gonna, and and that's with just about everything in life.
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's some people that are more adverse to risk than others.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Some people want to push that envelope a little bit, yeah.
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_02: And there's others that are like, I know my life right now.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_02: And if it feels really good, this could make it better, but it might not.
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to, I don't want to does that.
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Does that track it all?
• 1:19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_01: I sort of take it, you know, I c I can I come at it from a little bit of a personal perspective.
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like the town I grew up in, Glen Ennis, of course, um, you know, the the rural sector is is another sort of bit of not as mm boom bust as the mining sector, but certainly a very cyclical uh business.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you um you know, I look at Glen Ennis's sort of most young people leave now to go and get jobs elsewhere.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's just not opportunity there.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I know they'd they'd welcome any project or any opportunity with with open arms, they're just screaming out, you know, people want to stay.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I, you know, I haven't lived anywhere near my parents for 40 years because of the nature of of my business.
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um would I want to live in Glen Annis forever?
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not, but gee, it'd be good to have that as an option, and it simply really wasn't if you if you wanted to sort of get ahead at all or or be able to feed a family.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I I take a personal sort of view of that that you you know it's better to have opportunity, but um, but yeah, you you you have to appreciate that there's always a sort of trade-off there, I guess.
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the other thing, like y you know, when you build a mining project, I mean I'm very proud of our industry because we go to places that have no opportunity and no future.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and kids are leaving, or you know, even even worse, they're sort of poverty-stricken places and provide opportunity uh in in places.
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if you look at you know, parts of um, for example, the the the the Taltan nation over in British Columbia, well they've they've really flourished and they're they're their their family units can stay in those communities like Iskot and Dees Lake and flourish there with a lot of opportunity.
• 1:21:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, I'm proud of the business for the industry for for doing that.
• 1:21:42
  SPEAKER_01: But to go back to your point about you know sustainability, longer term of projects, one of the things that we've sort of provide prided ourselves on over the years is knowing that projects, uh mining projects generally will have a finite life, there's opportunity to encourage um advancement of further sectors.
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll give you a very good example.
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_01: So in Laos, my my business partners, I wasn't involved in it, I was at Rio Tinto at the time, but Rio Tinto sold a project called Seppon to to the guy who became my guys who became my business partner, Owen Heggerty, um Tony Manini and David Forsyth.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_01: But they sold that project, uh sorry, they bought that project off Rio Tinto, 20 different communities around that area, um, and and all basically subsistent subsistence living in Southern Lau.
• 1:22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um they built the project, but along the way they were very careful to foster um sustainable businesses around the project and around so uh and that included training in not only project-specific things but business courses, providing scholarships.
• 1:22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we NextGen's a company that I started uh in Saskatchewan, and over there we've now I think we've uh we've given about 10 scholarships to First Nations kids.
• 1:23:00
  SPEAKER_01: The the the the the um Clearwater Dene Nation, there, you know, a lot of the community members are there.
• 1:23:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've we've provided something of the order of 80,000 breakfasts to the kids in the communities in those impoverished areas through the Breakfast Club of Canada.
• 1:23:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we we're sort of you you know taking that um that that approach.
• 1:23:21
  SPEAKER_01: But the the Lowation example there at CEPON um one of the things they provided loans to, particularly uh mothers, uh was for the the the creation of their own silk growing businesses.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's become one of the the most important silk uh producing areas on the planet, and that will go on for centuries after the mine shut down.
• 1:23:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there's ways of managing things so that everyone uh benefits sustainably longer term, and that's you know that that's that's something.
• 1:23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's on us as a community to make sure that it it's it's not always on it's not a hundred percent on whoever's running a mine, but us as a community realizing as well that this is a short-term opportunity and that what investments are we making, knowing that it's a short-term environ uh opportunity, what investments are we making to make sure that we're an incubator for other businesses that are going to be more sustainable and going to carry on after that as well.
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, that's right.
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, your store is a fantastic example.
• 1:24:30
  SPEAKER_01: You you know, you certainly you'll you'll benefit from from uh increased business flow, but you know perhaps then you start to expand and franchise with it with that new cash flow.
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there's opportunity.
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking more retirement retire.
• 1:24:50
  SPEAKER_02: The time frame that you're looking at before that that happens, it's it's more in the retirement age for me rather than my my nephews or somebody younger might have to go beyond that.
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I was gonna say it sounds more like the retirement time for me.
• 1:25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say you're way too young to retire.
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm older than you are.
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_00: You don't see enough sun.
• 1:25:13
  SPEAKER_00: You've all got good skin.
• 1:25:19
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of sun and a lot of moose meat and salmon.
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're right.
• 1:25:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we're protective of the river and the environment up there.
• 1:25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 1:25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Keeps us looking, you keeps us healthy.
• 1:25:28
  SPEAKER_02: We we need to make sure that stays that way.
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 1:25:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:25:31
  SPEAKER_00: We will definitely do that.
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_02: So you're you're living in Prince Rupert now.
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, no, I live in Vancouver.
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Vancouver.
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's been there for uh 11 years, yeah.
• 1:25:43
  SPEAKER_02: That Vancouver seems to be like the hub of Canadian mining.
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_02: Is it just West Coast Canadian mining?
• 1:25:49
  SPEAKER_02: Or it just seems like there's a lot of that activity in the Vancouver area.
• 1:25:54
  SPEAKER_02: Or it just seems like everybody that comes up to work in Constantine is from Vancouver.
• 1:25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Except for Peter you brought him from the UC.
• 1:26:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, it is, it's there's probably like three, three sort of key hubs around the world.
• 1:26:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Aussie hubs, Perth, Mel, Melbourne, Sydney.
• 1:26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um in Canada, you've got Toronto and Vancouver.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And for I think I think, you know, it's it's because of the size of the continental mass and the prospectivity of those countries.
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's worth sort of remembering that this area opened up because of, you know, the access to the Yukon and mining.
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there's sort of long traditions of mining um in these regions.
• 1:26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was telling you about that book with the Juno Goldfields.
• 1:26:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh they were they're talking then of the Juwalin and Kensington and and Comet and that that whole Kensington area where they were doing plaster mining, they're doing some of the original tunnels into that area back in the early 9 1890s, 1900s when they were they were out there digging in that area.
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that yeah, that whole area over to Greens Creek, all through Juneau, uh, this whole area is and going up into uh into British Columbia to Windy Craiggy.
• 1:27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, that's mineralization in this whole area.
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Geologically, this is fascinating.
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's crazy the amount of resources in the area.
• 1:27:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's incredible, and and then you know, you look at what's happening in the w in the Yukon at the moment.
• 1:27:23
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't, you know, I've been doing this for 30 or well, 30 years now, and I've never seen better geology, you know.
• 1:27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the discoveries that are being made to the north of us at the moment are you know fabulous things, potentially world-class things.
• 1:27:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um yeah, it's an interesting time.
• 1:27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and this is certainly, you know, a very interesting geological terrain.
• 1:27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm flying up from Juneau there the this afternoon and taking photos, and you can see a lot of the structures and the rivers sitting on structures, and yeah, it's fascinating, fascinating part of the world.
• 1:27:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thinking you want to get out and do some hiking and go starting on some rocks.
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 1:28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Although you know, just th the the hiking would enter entertain me enough here.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh and maybe one day some skiing.
• 1:28:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's bound to be some days that are that you can get up with the chopper and do some skiing.
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:28:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, we we we we will do that and um I don't know, so to go back to your question, yeah.
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh I we'll be up here a lot more.
• 1:28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, potentially look at sort of spending a month in winter and a month in summer up here.
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just yeah, find a fabulous place, but um I've still got the youngest fella in school, so that's a bit of a constraint, but uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Correspondence.
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_02: They found out during COVID they can teach over a lot of people.
• 1:28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but that's a good that's a good point too.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
• 1:28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well they I don't want to get in trouble, mom here and there.
• 1:28:54
  SPEAKER_02: She's she might be putting a kibach on that, just throwing out ideas for you.
• 1:28:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know Darcy would love to do that.
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_00: How old is he?
• 1:29:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's uh Darcy 16.
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_01: He's in Japan at the moment on a on a um sort of summer school trip.
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Nice uh leadership program.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh that's good.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_01: He's doing well.
• 1:29:13
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, no, I love it up here.
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I just fascinating.
• 1:29:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm s uh sort of uh met a lot of people and he has some real characters, it's a fantastic idea.
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes you are.
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_01: The uh yeah, Sean Dog, I'm I'm looking forward to listening to the rest of his his interview.
• 1:29:29
  SPEAKER_02: We had fun with Sean.
• 1:29:31
  SPEAKER_01: He's got a problem up there at the moment, he's got a porcupine problem, so we we had to get some salt licks and try and figure out a way to trap a porcupine.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully he's going okay at that.
• 1:29:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, yep.
• 1:29:43
  SPEAKER_02: So what what's what can people expect the rest of the summer out at the project there?
• 1:29:49
  SPEAKER_02: Is it just mainly the the drilling going on?
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, I think so.
• 1:29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, really that is very much the focus.
• 1:29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, get get some more holes in there, look at these higher grade zones, understand those a bit better.
• 1:30:05
  SPEAKER_01: We've got, you know, some interesting things there in the deposit that haven't been worked out.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've seen evidence of gallium and germanium, which are those?
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Supercritical rare earth minerals.
• 1:30:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I won't pretend to say that I know much about them other than I think, you know, uh gallium is used heavily in uh what what am I trying to say?
• 1:30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Radar technology and things like that.
• 1:30:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at an F-35 fighter jet, you know, it's basically a flying flying uh uh periodic element table.
• 1:30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, so there's interesting things we're finding there.
• 1:30:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's barite in that system as well, of course.
• 1:30:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, bearite's um the we know what one use is for very high purity berite is for for medical milkshakes and the the the fun that that brings.
• 1:30:55
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also its main use is in the drilling muds, and at the moment the US gets 85% of its uh drilling mud um from from external sources.
• 1:31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you know we see opportunities there.
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_01: But for the most part, it's really about understanding your bodies.
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps we'll make another discovery or something that will, you know, grow the resource in the your body.
• 1:31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then and that's it.
• 1:31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we're starting again some of that environmental baseline work.
• 1:31:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're looking at sort of you know uh all elements of the project to to to understand what we've got and and figure out where we go with it for from here.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_02: So some some people have talked about with like the with the bear right that it's not a high economic value to it.
• 1:31:40
  SPEAKER_02: But is that m my read on that is with having the bear right, even if it's not a huge profit deal, whatever tonnage is less that you would have to less that you're putting into tailings and makes it easier to get as much as possible back in into the if you're disposing it back into your shafts or whatever.
• 1:32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:32:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, so you're removing more of that that material.
• 1:32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it it has an economic a solid price in this day and age.
• 1:32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so there there's opportunities there.
• 1:32:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're looking at all of those things.
• 1:32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, just just just moving forward with the the the the drill at the moment is is the the intention.
• 1:32:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we spend a lot of time talking to the government and community and and the like, so that's always an ongoing body of work.
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're also drilling down in British Columbia at the moment.
• 1:32:32
  SPEAKER_01: We've got two rigs turning down there, so we've got a lot of a lot going on, you know, all around.
• 1:32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And for people in Haynes that want to reach out, want information, want to is just go to the website.
• 1:32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Go to our website office and what's the what's the website?
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Our office um just up from Alaska Rods there, next to the motel.
• 1:32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh the the the website, so vislacopper uh.ca uh and we have a second website um Palma Project AK.
• 1:33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Palmerproject AK.com, I believe.
• 1:33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or Google that anyway.
• 1:33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, no, the the Viesla Copper website has contact details if anyone wants to talk to us.
• 1:33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, as you mentioned, Pete's um uh been been talking a bit more at at conferences and the like here and community meetings and um yeah, and and uh you know if anyone wants to chat to me and when I'm on the street, please please come up and say good day.
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_01: I you know I've been very, very impressed with um really enjoying talking to everyone around here.
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely community, and I think you know what you're doing, Doug, is um a tremendous initiative.
• 1:33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and Sam there behind the camera, um a tremendous initiative, and I I can see that that really sort of you know fosters an understanding in a community that you otherwise might not have.
• 1:33:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's yeah, you you'd be congratulated.
• 1:33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well done.
• 1:33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you.
• 1:33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Appreciate that.
• 1:33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, appreciate you joining us, and I hope as we move forward with this um that we can have you back again.
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'd like to do that.
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_02: And have some have some more updates and kind of where things are going and what you've been up to.
• 1:34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, for sure.
• 1:34:12
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe we can get Pete and Nicole on here, love to tell their stories as well.
• 1:34:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure, for sure.
• 1:34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Pete's a fanatic, fascinating black.
• 1:34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and Nicole, she's she's uh she hasn't got sort of um many years of experience, but wow, what a weapon she is for just a a tremendous lady and and does uh uh and a tremendous professional, man.
• 1:34:32
  SPEAKER_01: She she does a fabulous job for us there.
• 1:34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh incredibly impressed.
• 1:34:36
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it'd be worth having a chat to them for sure.
• 1:34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:34:39
  SPEAKER_01: But uh yeah, yeah, I'll be around.
• 1:34:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna spend as much time up here as I can.
• 1:34:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we look forward to seeing more of you and and uh any what what did we miss?
• 1:34:49
  SPEAKER_02: What what part of the story here, whether it's with Vicela Copper, about your life before that, about your business part, what stuff about your kids, about your wife?
• 1:35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Any any any and I don't want you telling stories that are you're gonna get you in trouble with your wife.
• 1:35:05
  SPEAKER_02: No, no.
• 1:35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um she I guess she's she's from Montana.
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_00: She's from Montana.
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Where in Montana?
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, she grew up on Coal Pit Road, um in uh just outside of Butte, but but now the family's in uh Bozeman.
• 1:35:21
  SPEAKER_02: I got uh I got a nephew in that lives in Bozeman with his wife and daughter, and my niece and her fiance just moved back from Bozeman.
• 1:35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.
• 1:35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 1:35:31
  SPEAKER_02: I love Bozeman.
• 1:35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's fabulous.
• 1:35:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's a beautiful town.
• 1:35:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a fabulous place.
• 1:35:33
  SPEAKER_01: And she's from a wonderful family.
• 1:35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Her dad was uh he's a a a uh a pediatrician doctor professor at the at one of the universities there, and um and was one of the sort of key heads of uh of AIDS research in in the US in the 80s and the 30s.
• 1:35:51
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, fascinating family um to talk about.
• 1:35:54
  SPEAKER_01: How'd you meet her?
• 1:35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh she's in the business.
• 1:35:57
  SPEAKER_01: She she was um she was a lawyer at Dorsey Whitney there in uh in Utah for many, many years, and then she moved into the funds management side of things.
• 1:36:06
  SPEAKER_01: She's a she's a fund manager.
• 1:36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so yeah, yeah, we look to give you a I don't I don't see you winning many arguments at home with you if you've got a lawyer for a wife.
• 1:36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well she's she's a lot smarter than me too, so I don't have to bother.
• 1:36:20
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I gotta tell you, we we we um you know we got married uh there a month ago and and we had the the wedding in uh mine museum, the Britannia Mine Museum, Britannia Beach, just north of Vancouver, in the mill building.
• 1:36:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, going back to your point about you know legacy from mining, well there you go, you that's now we were the first wedding they've ever had there, so hopefully we've shown them a bit of a business model, but as an opportunity there.
• 1:36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I took some some I bought some gold from uh one of the traders down there in Juneau back uh when I was here in um January and and salted the gold panning at the music.
• 1:37:01
  SPEAKER_01: So kids, you know, the one kid there got I think it was a hundred bucks worth of gold out of the salt panning.
• 1:37:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that was fun.
• 1:37:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then we uh and my family were over from Australia and um so which was great, but then uh we decided well we don't really have time for a proper honeymoon.
• 1:37:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we just went for a drive through British Columbia.
• 1:37:18
  SPEAKER_01: We sort of got to a fork in the road and Nora said, Well, what's what's up that way?
• 1:37:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, that's the rest of British Columbia.
• 1:37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but what's up there?
• 1:37:26
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Well, we're drilling at our wood jam project three hours north of here.
• 1:37:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we went and checked out the drill rig for our honeymoon and then went down and saw a very big copper mine.
• 1:37:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um something that I sort of kind of contemplate the sky, the size of down at Highland Valley, uh, which is owned by Tech down there in uh in in uh southern BC.
• 1:37:46
  SPEAKER_01: So so we we sort of kept the copper mining, the copper exploration mining theme going on.
• 1:37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Mining theme through the whole wedding and other moon here.
• 1:37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's uh she's uh she's the only one that'd have me.
• 1:38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well it's uh it's it's it's good for all of us to find one that'll have us.
• 1:38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I could use a bit of help.
• 1:38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well yeah, this has been a real pleasure, hasn't it?
• 1:38:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm looking kind to have a look around the shop too here.
• 1:38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well it takes us a little bit to put everything away, so you're more than welcome to look around while we're putting everything away if you like.
• 1:38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic, love that.
• 1:38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks again.
• 1:38:25
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it, Craig.
• 1:38:26
  SPEAKER_02: Great to meet you.
• 1:38:27
  SPEAKER_01: A real pleasure.
• 1:38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Conversation.
• 1:38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Look forward to more in the future.
• 1:38:31
  SPEAKER_01: We better say thank you to the man behind the camera there, Sam.
• 1:38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well done.
• 1:38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Sam bails me out.
• 1:38:36
  SPEAKER_02: I this techno the technology part of it, especially with the new cameras.
• 1:38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um he's like, oh no, no, you got this.
• 1:38:44
  SPEAKER_02: This is the reason we got this.
• 1:38:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then I didn't think he was gonna be back until tomorrow.
• 1:38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 1:38:49
  SPEAKER_02: And he texted me this weekend, he said, Hey, I'm gonna be back Monday night, you got this?
• 1:38:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Tuesday.
• 1:38:57
  SPEAKER_02: Incredible.
• 1:38:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've done a few sort of interviews and podcasts over the years, but this is one of the best setups I've ever seen.
• 1:39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Very professional.
• 1:39:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you.
• 1:39:06
  SPEAKER_02: We just kind of put things together with what we had laying around and making it work.
• 1:39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's come and look at those pistols.