Latest / Beyond the Sermon / Pride: Conversation

Transcript

Pride: Conversation · Beyond the Sermon

• 0:07
  Thanks for joining us, on beyond the sermon.
• 0:09
  The podcast of First Methodist Church in Collingswood New
• 0:12
  Jersey. Our goal is not only to share
• 0:14
  our sermons, but to go beyond the sermon in conversation about
• 0:18
  what we're learning and what God is doing in our lives, and in
• 0:21
  our community, this conversation is inspired by our 2023 sermon
• 0:26
  series for length, seven deadly sins, the power of God to I move
• 0:30
  us from death to New Life. He can find more information
• 0:33
  about our church at fum. See Collingswood, org, thanks
• 0:37
  for joining us for this conversation.
• 0:39
  So, is that tell me how great you are without being prideful?
• 0:45
  I'm not very great. Not at all.
• 0:48
  Why is Christ? I didn't you?
• 0:49
  Well, Jesus is great, but I'm not explain.
• 0:53
  I mean, I don't think that I bring a whole lot to the table,
• 0:59
  especially when it comes. The, you know, thinking about
• 1:02
  what Jesus brings to the table and that's not to the point of
• 1:10
  being like self-deprecating. Like I don't think I'm an awful
• 1:12
  terrible person but, you know, without Jesus, I certainly would
• 1:17
  be prior to feeling called into Ministry.
• 1:21
  I was fairly shy, hated public speaking.
• 1:25
  I would much rather do something digitally, or Or academically
• 1:32
  where I didn't really have to interact with people.
• 1:34
  Yeah, so just all that. I mean, I don't well what about
• 1:37
  all the unique gifts and talents, talents, and passions
• 1:42
  that God gave you that prior to your relationship with Jesus.
• 1:46
  You still had, there's nothing good in there, but if but I
• 1:50
  think if we acknowledge them as God given gifts, then it's still
• 1:54
  not me. We had some missionary friends
• 1:58
  who bad. Habit of saying, you know, I
• 2:01
  believe in Jesus, and you rather than saying, like, I believe in
• 2:04
  you, I believe you can get this done or whatever what makes you
• 2:08
  so great. Jeremy know.
• 2:10
  I think the key thing was both of our answers is that we are
• 2:15
  both at this stage of life good at acknowledging.
• 2:18
  What God has done in the past and how he is working in and
• 2:23
  through us and that acknowledgement helps us in the
• 2:28
  future and how we act and how how we view things and how we
• 2:31
  interact with people because like you said, like you you
• 2:34
  know, that those things came from God, if you didn't
• 2:35
  acknowledge that, then you would right.
• 2:38
  Sure, sure, sure. And so and being open and
• 2:41
  allowing him to steer, you and guide you to preach and do the
• 2:45
  things that you might have not more naturally, gravitated
• 2:47
  towards allowing him to use you. I think that the acknowledgement
• 2:52
  and the faithfulness, not that we've always been faithful in
• 2:55
  every single circumstance, but I think those two things.
• 3:00
  Are where we come into play in this relationship, and, and what
• 3:04
  God is doing in and through us. And so, I would say those two
• 3:08
  things are very important, and not easy.
• 3:12
  Sure. And yet.
• 3:14
  So if other people are struggling in those areas, I
• 3:18
  feel like those two things acknowledging, how God has
• 3:24
  worked and is working and then being open and allowing him to
• 3:28
  guide you and Steve. Are you with the spirit, will
• 3:31
  drastically. Change everything and your life?
• 3:36
  It should at least. It can't those seemingly simple
• 3:40
  may not be the easiest to do especially with the world around
• 3:44
  us or your world, your individual world and what you're
• 3:47
  going through. But those two things I find to
• 3:50
  be very, very helpful and guiding allowing God to do.
• 3:55
  What he does best kind of leaning in to where Jesus had
• 4:00
  His Focus has you're talking about, Jesus honoring
• 4:03
  glorifying, who in your sermon, the Father, the father, and so
• 4:08
  it, sometimes I feel like in Sunday school growing up.
• 4:11
  Its Jesus. God in the Holy Spirit, are all
• 4:14
  one. And so I do, I just imagine
• 4:18
  like, and they are. Yes.
• 4:22
  Sorry about that, obviously, yes, but I imagine them of, oh,
• 4:28
  they all do the same thing. Thing.
• 4:30
  And every time Jesus is doing something, that means the father
• 4:32
  is also doing in. That means the spirit is also
• 4:35
  doing it. And I never either heard or
• 4:38
  focused or noticed that like, Jesus, interacts with the
• 4:42
  father, Yes, a separate part of the Trinity.
• 4:48
  But yeah, I was just thinking specifically about John 17,
• 4:54
  where Jesus is praying, you know, it's often called like his
• 4:59
  high Priestly. Prairies praying for the
• 5:01
  disciples but he starts out and says father the hour has come
• 5:07
  glorify your son that your son may glorify you then he goes on
• 5:13
  to talk about like what that looks like and why.
• 5:16
  But it's a hard thing to wrap. Our minds around to think of
• 5:22
  both the unity of God and the try Unity of God.
• 5:29
  And What does it mean to believe that we serve one God in three
• 5:36
  persons? If anyone thinks they've got
• 5:38
  that figured out. I want to tell you you don't.
• 5:44
  And I don't say that lightly but it's such a mystery that we
• 5:48
  can't really wrap our heads around.
• 5:50
  We can talk about it in analogies but those analogies
• 5:54
  are always going to fall short, you know.
• 5:56
  Like sometimes we'll talk about the egg where you've got the
• 5:59
  shell. And the white and the yolk and
• 6:02
  you know, that's all -. But they each have their
• 6:05
  different parts and roles and it kind of gets us there, but it's
• 6:11
  still a mystery to us if at any point because there are people
• 6:15
  that will try and argue that Christ.
• 6:17
  Never said that. He was God.
• 6:19
  And I just say that those people haven't read the gospels, right?
• 6:23
  It's even right after 17 and 18 when Pontius Pilate is Is
• 6:29
  questioning Jesus. At the end of the chapter.
• 6:32
  Jesus says, I am and he says it twice and regards to who he is.
• 6:39
  He says, are you the king of Jews and Jesus replies twice
• 6:42
  with I am. And I am as a reference back to
• 6:46
  Exodus when Moses says, you know, God, how should I tell
• 6:50
  them that, who sent me? And he says, I am sent you tell
• 6:55
  them that I am has sent you. And so there's just multiple
• 6:58
  times that Christ. People know that who he is but
• 7:01
  if Christ is who we are emulating, and he is the example
• 7:05
  for us and he glorifies an honors God and focuses on God,
• 7:11
  especially with in prayer. Where should our Focus be?
• 7:15
  Hmm, because a lot of times as Christians, we focus, Jesus,
• 7:18
  Jesus, Jesus. But Jesus points us to the
• 7:21
  father, right? And so, are there some send the
• 7:25
  Holy Spirit, glorifies son and Jesus even says, As The Advocate
• 7:30
  is greater than hi. Right, right?
• 7:32
  Right. And it's kind of like this big
• 7:35
  circular dance going on, you know, they they're all pointing
• 7:39
  to each other and are they all just that humble?
• 7:45
  Well and I think that's where the the Unity comes into play is
• 7:51
  in glorifying. The other person's of the
• 7:54
  Trinity. That's what it's supposed to
• 7:56
  look. That's what self giving love
• 7:59
  looks like which If we believe that God in his Essence is Holy
• 8:04
  self, giving love and that's what that's the relationship
• 8:08
  that binds the Trinity together. We'll love is always focused on
• 8:13
  the other, right? It's never about me, it's never
• 8:17
  about my mind. It's about you you you and so
• 8:22
  you think of like a teenager who's in that puppy love Stage,
• 8:29
  not that you have any experience with that working in youth
• 8:31
  ministry Jeremy, but all they do is talk about right there
• 8:37
  constant, if they're not talking to them, they're talking about
• 8:40
  them. And, and I think there's
• 8:43
  something of the Triune life in that except much whole, your
• 8:48
  little perfect. Yes.
• 8:49
  Well, absolutely, that, that that's one of those analogies
• 8:52
  that is going to fall drastically short of the reality
• 8:56
  of God. Yes, I agree.
• 8:58
  It's very much. Intertwined into most of what
• 9:01
  they do throughout the day. Yeah, a ship.
• 9:04
  And so you know we could say well if Jesus is role I'm going
• 9:11
  to use Jesus instead of Christ, because Jesus was his name,
• 9:16
  Christ was his title. He was Christ means Messiah,
• 9:19
  means the anointed one and I don't think we're necessarily
• 9:23
  called to be that same anointed one, but as followers of Jesus,
• 9:28
  Who was God's purest and most clear revelation of himself,
• 9:36
  right? Because God, in our Humanity, if
• 9:40
  Jesus points to God the Father, the naturally be to assume that
• 9:46
  we're supposed to point also to the father.
• 9:48
  And I don't think that's wrong. But I think somehow we're just
• 9:51
  supposed to point to God in all of his fullness and Jesus most
• 9:58
  often Was speaking to these Jewish people who had a concept
• 10:02
  of God. The Father God, as a father,
• 10:04
  even if it wasn't fully developed into trinitarian
• 10:07
  theology, they had that concept. And so I think in some ways
• 10:12
  Jesus was speaking in a language and context, they could
• 10:16
  understand. And so I don't think we're
• 10:19
  supposed to point to God, the Father to the exclusion of Jesus
• 10:24
  or the holy spirit because they're all God, I think our
• 10:31
  call is to point to God and we see God most clearly presented
• 10:36
  in Jesus. I'd recommend a book by Dennis
• 10:41
  kinlaw called. Let's start with Jesus.
• 10:45
  And in that book, he talks about how we should build our theology
• 10:51
  starting from Jesus as that self revelation of God agree, don't
• 10:57
  have to read it to Be with Kim, but I'm going to add that one.
• 11:01
  So my with how long is it short book, hey my kind of 150 Pages,
• 11:06
  maybe awesome, is that readily available to borrow from your
• 11:09
  office, most of the time, but my wife just finished reading it
• 11:13
  and so it's currently at the house, but okay, yeah, yeah,
• 11:17
  yeah. Good to know because they're not
• 11:19
  always want to pay money for a book that I might not even
• 11:22
  continue after like chapter 2, if I'm being sure.
• 11:25
  Yeah. But to know that it's free and
• 11:27
  available at church. Yeah.
• 11:28
  Now I love part of the reason I keep all these books in my
• 11:32
  office is to be able to, to loan them, out to people, and let
• 11:36
  them not. Not just a reference them myself
• 11:39
  again. But if I have something that's
• 11:41
  somebody's interested in Reading, I'd love to be able to
• 11:44
  let them outside. Please, take the books for my
• 11:46
  office, someone needs to read them.
• 11:47
  Yeah, and I mean, if you leave me a note on my desk, I don't
• 11:52
  even necessarily have to be in here.
• 11:53
  Calm? Right?
• 11:54
  Pastor. Scott's office.
• 11:56
  Just leave a notation. Just leave a note.
• 11:58
  This is only available to those who listen to the podcast.
• 12:03
  Talk about emulating Jesus and learning from his teachings.
• 12:07
  Sometimes following those things can become legalistic and we
• 12:12
  become very prideful of oh, I'm being a better Christian than
• 12:16
  this person or oh, that person, you know, in the world is
• 12:20
  horrible because they're not doing all the things I'm doing
• 12:23
  and kind of like that section you read for us yesterday.
• 12:27
  Matthew 6, Six talks about you don't want to be like the
• 12:31
  Hypocrites. You don't want to give so that
• 12:33
  people see how generous you are. You don't want to pray in a way
• 12:39
  that just, you know, is you shouting my Sunday school
• 12:42
  teacher always said like having a megaphone in church and just
• 12:45
  praying into the megaphone. God, thanks that.
• 12:47
  I'm not like these idiots around me and so when can we catch
• 12:53
  ourselves? Hmm, and kind of do a heart
• 12:56
  check of why we're doing. The things and then how do we
• 13:00
  make sure we're not like the Hypocrites.
• 13:02
  Yeah. When I think needs to be just
• 13:05
  about all the time. Mmm because I think Pride among
• 13:10
  the seven deadly sins. I think pride is a uniquely
• 13:14
  Christian Sim in zone in the sense that in our heads.
• 13:20
  We know lust and gluttony and sloth are kind of wrong.
• 13:28
  Yeah. But I think the pride comes up
• 13:31
  in us because of the good things that were doing and the right
• 13:37
  things that were doing and so it's harder to recognize it
• 13:42
  sometimes. So not not a Christian sit in
• 13:44
  the sense that it's okay. But Christensen in the sense
• 13:49
  that I think a lot of Christians, a lot of people are
• 13:52
  trying to follow Jesus fall into it because We get the sense that
• 13:58
  were doing things right or doing things better than that, other
• 14:03
  one. And this can manifest itself in
• 14:07
  denominational ways, like, oh, well, at least, we're not like
• 14:10
  those Catholic. Catholics.
• 14:12
  Are those Presbyterians are the Baptist down the street but it
• 14:16
  can also manifest itself in just very personal.
• 14:20
  He's at least, I'm not like that guy.
• 14:24
  We all know what he was doing last night.
• 14:26
  And he still showed up at church this morning, can you believe
• 14:28
  it? And you're mentioned that that
• 14:31
  megaphone prayer? But I remind you of the time in
• 14:34
  in Luke that Jesus told a parable about two men who went
• 14:37
  up to the temple to pray one was a Pharisee the other was a tax
• 14:41
  collector and the tax collector Stood Beside God.
• 14:44
  Thank you that I'm not an adulterer or a thief student.
• 14:50
  Yes isn't that's not what I said.
• 14:52
  No tax collectors in the back. Yeah all right.
• 14:55
  Let's bend the paper. I see standing up in front of
• 14:57
  everyone and saying God thank you that.
• 14:59
  I'm not like all these terrible people.
• 15:01
  I don't you know, cheat, I don't steal, I do honorable business.
• 15:07
  Thank you that I'm not like this tax collector over here.
• 15:10
  Meanwhile, the tax collector it says won't even look up to
• 15:15
  heaven. He's beating his chest and
• 15:18
  saying, God have mercy on me. I'm a sinner.
• 15:21
  And Jesus said, I tell you this, man, the tax collector, he went
• 15:25
  down to his Home Justified rather than the other, man,
• 15:29
  because he recognized that in relation to God, he fell short
• 15:34
  and he needed to be saved. He needed, he didn't have
• 15:39
  anything to bring to the relationship, he just needed,
• 15:42
  God, as opposed to the self-righteousness on display,
• 15:47
  in the Pharisee. And I look around at a lot of
• 15:50
  the American Church, these days, and I see a lot of Pharisees and
• 15:56
  I don't say that to try to build myself up, you know, I want to
• 15:59
  be careful that I'm not then placing myself over them.
• 16:04
  Now we're finally getting the answer to my first question.
• 16:06
  Tell me how great you are Scott but some days, you know, I'll
• 16:12
  scroll through Twitter and some of the things people are saying
• 16:17
  and tweeting and the way they're putting down other people or
• 16:22
  saying, if you don't believe this, then you're not real.
• 16:26
  Ali, a follower of Jesus. If you do this, if you love
• 16:29
  these people, then there's no way you could actually be a
• 16:35
  Christian just like really, you've got it all figured out.
• 16:39
  I I don't I don't have it all figured out.
• 16:43
  And I think part of the temptation, as a pastor is to
• 16:49
  act like you do, have it all figured out because you're the
• 16:52
  one who is up there. Preaching the message you're
• 16:57
  leading in these congregational or pastoral prayers.
• 17:01
  You're doing Bible studies. You're leading meetings,
• 17:04
  whatever you're supposed to have it all figured out a little
• 17:07
  secret. I don't think I'll cut this got
• 17:12
  here. And I think that's, that's one
• 17:14
  of those things. I like, the more I learn about
• 17:18
  Jesus about following God, about walking in relationship with
• 17:23
  him, the more I realize Sighs. I don't know and that's where it
• 17:29
  should steer. You two things, one I think my
• 17:32
  biggest concern with pride within the church is that
• 17:36
  because it's so natural and because it's not as always, as
• 17:41
  tangible as some of the other sins because it can be the root
• 17:44
  of M&M's all of them. If not, all of them that I feel
• 17:48
  like it's one that we may not. Repent of.
• 17:51
  Yeah, and like intentionally repent of and so I was really
• 17:55
  struggling as you're talking. About being a pastor and
• 17:57
  knowledge and learning and being humbled by the word and humbled
• 18:00
  by God, is that there was a season.
• 18:03
  And when I started working here because I focus a didn't feel
• 18:07
  prepared, don't feel prepared to do this position, especially on
• 18:12
  the like, knowledge of the word side of things, because I never
• 18:17
  went to Seminary and I don't like to read.
• 18:20
  And so I wanted to make up for that and surrounding myself with
• 18:24
  as many resources. And as I could and I got one of
• 18:27
  these commentaries that we've talked about the ivp historical
• 18:31
  cultural context one which I still absolutely love and use
• 18:35
  all the time. But I found myself at solanco
• 18:38
  camp and I had that book with me and I would take it to service
• 18:43
  and as they were like sharing scripture, I opened up the
• 18:47
  commentary and learn more about the scripture so I could, you
• 18:50
  know, better get a history and understanding of it and then I
• 18:54
  found myself like Someone notices, I have this book.
• 18:58
  Like this book is like, as big of a Bible, but it's only the
• 19:02
  New Testament, and it's only the extra stuff.
• 19:05
  It doesn't even have right in there.
• 19:07
  And so, I'm like, even made a comment and they're like, oh
• 19:09
  wow, what you got there? I was like, oh, that's a common,
• 19:12
  all I got in play it off. Like, check out this cool
• 19:14
  commentary. But like, a little piece inside
• 19:16
  of me was, like, I was somebody saw someone noticed that, like,
• 19:21
  you know, I'm learning like and I have some more knowledge in my
• 19:25
  hand now. My head because I don't.
• 19:28
  And so that's where like I had to struggle with.
• 19:30
  You know, the more you learn about God should humble you at
• 19:35
  realizing it a, how much you still don't know.
• 19:39
  But also at how great and vast and amazing.
• 19:42
  He is and how his ways are so far beyond ours as the heavens
• 19:48
  are to the Earth and that we'll never know, like we have what we
• 19:52
  have. And even that is is such a Small
• 19:56
  amount of who God is sure and to let ourselves become prideful
• 20:03
  and our knowledge of God vs. I think for me knowledge is the
• 20:08
  biggest struggle, but prideful and how we live it out because
• 20:12
  pride is against how we live it out.
• 20:14
  Let's hope you're doing it right you know living it out should be
• 20:19
  a the priority but be it's really hard if we're if we're
• 20:23
  doing it right to be prideful. And living out what God is
• 20:27
  calling us to do. And I think it's easy in that
• 20:30
  same vein to slip into a false humility, which is really just
• 20:37
  another picture of cried. Like, there is a while where,
• 20:42
  you know, after I would preach a message or whatever and people
• 20:44
  come back to hell. You did.
• 20:46
  Nice job, you handled that well or whatever.
• 20:49
  My reaction would be to say something.
• 20:50
  Like, well, do it? That's all God.
• 20:52
  It's all God. It trying to verbalize.
• 20:56
  Is my recognition that it's not me but somewhere along the way
• 21:01
  someone of those in a book or a podcast or a blog post or
• 21:07
  something, just the author said like, pastors, just say thank
• 21:13
  you. Like the will?
• 21:15
  Well, no, no, but like it not like recognizing recognizing
• 21:21
  that both things are true. That Yes, it all comes from God
• 21:28
  but you also put some hard work in to prepare a good sermon
• 21:32
  because the reality is if I'm doing it right?
• 21:36
  It's hours of work to write it 20 to 25 minutes ER minute 10 to
• 21:42
  12 minutes or Min from me. Yeah.
• 21:45
  And again, that's not to toot my own horn like that.
• 21:48
  That's the ministry that I'm called to right now and so I
• 21:54
  gladly do that. Seeing that there is you did
• 21:58
  have a my side in it. Yeah.
• 22:01
  And he went on to say, I think, you know, like no one really is
• 22:06
  thanking you entirely like people recognize that because of
• 22:11
  the work you're in and stuff that God plays a role in that.
• 22:17
  And so you don't have to deflect all of their appreciation.
• 22:21
  I agree and I understand I think my Ian is that I've seen pastors
• 22:30
  have their egos inflated because after all those Sunday's of
• 22:35
  having people say you did so great, you did so great.
• 22:38
  You did so great. You did so great.
• 22:40
  They started to get it in their heads that I was so great.
• 22:43
  They brought to the table. Yeah, that was getting
• 22:45
  complimented. And, and I've seen them where
• 22:48
  like, you know, I would say, hey they'd ask me about the sermon
• 22:52
  and I said, well, you know, I really enjoyed these parts, you
• 22:55
  know. Feel like couple these areas or
• 22:58
  in fleshed out, or whatever. The critique might be the on,
• 23:02
  you know, not against preaching or that, maybe it might have led
• 23:07
  to someone to misunderstand the original intentions of the
• 23:11
  scripture that they were talking about and the reply was.
• 23:16
  Well, you know, I had a handful of people say, how much they
• 23:19
  love my sermon. Yeah, on Sunday.
• 23:22
  I'm just like, I don't want to ever get there.
• 23:26
  Sure. And so that's where I think for
• 23:28
  me. It's a protection of me and my
• 23:30
  ego death to make sure that honestly, I think a summary if
• 23:34
  you have been driving while listening to this or doing
• 23:39
  something else and it's all kind of just blurred together, the
• 23:42
  past 15 minutes of the summary to the question of when and how
• 23:47
  do you catch your heart? So that you do not become like a
• 23:51
  hypocrite is, just constantly check yourself before you wreck
• 23:54
  yourself. The kids used to say, 30 years
• 23:57
  ago, is it really that long ago? But sure, yeah for and sometimes
• 24:04
  in the busyness of everything, we don't always check our hearts
• 24:07
  in our intentions. It just becomes a natural flow
• 24:10
  of our daily life. Yeah.
• 24:11
  And that's part of developing that conversational relationship
• 24:14
  with God, right? Like, as you're going about your
• 24:18
  day, just a quick prayer. God is my heart right in this
• 24:23
  got am I doing this for the right reason?
• 24:25
  Because sometimes we're not and the sooner, we can get that
• 24:31
  correction. The, the quicker we can course
• 24:35
  correct and the less damage we end up doing through those
• 24:40
  choices. Speaking of the consequences of
• 24:43
  certain decisions that we make, we've been talking about the
• 24:47
  seven, deadly sins, mmm. And as we close out this series,
• 24:52
  I've been meaning to ask for a while.
• 24:53
  Now the most famous verse that comes to mind is Romans 6:23,
• 24:58
  which says for the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of
• 25:01
  God is eternal. Colonel life in Christ Jesus.
• 25:04
  And so if the wages of sin is death, why are these seven sins,
• 25:09
  deadly? Or more deadly than other
• 25:11
  sounds? And I don't think they really
• 25:14
  are but I think these are as we've talked about in different
• 25:19
  places. Like these are the Chiefs end or
• 25:23
  the root of a lot of the sinful actions that we do all sin
• 25:30
  separates us from God. That's clear in scripture but
• 25:34
  things like gluttony or sloth are going like yesterday.
• 25:40
  I talked a little bit about the image of a tree and if the trunk
• 25:43
  of the tree is pride and the big branches coming out, are these
• 25:49
  seven deadly sins? Then the actual sins we commit
• 25:54
  our the fruit on the end of the branch, right?
• 25:58
  And so it's not that these are More deadly or more serious.
• 26:06
  But I think they are the the things I get to the motivations
• 26:10
  in our hearts that lead us to commit other since I think in
• 26:16
  that sense they're they're deadly and that the roots get
• 26:20
  down in our hearts and we don't recognize them as readily.
• 26:26
  So but this weekend, we're also going to take time to as we go
• 26:30
  through Maundy, Thursday and good.
• 26:32
  Friday and ultimately Easter Sunday, we're going to look at
• 26:37
  what the death and resurrection of Jesus enables for us and that
• 26:42
  in the death of Christ sin and death, lost their power.
• 26:47
  And in his resurrection, they were defeated and so we can now
• 26:52
  live a new life that is fed by Jesus is own life by God's own
• 26:58
  life living in us. Well, that's our conversation
• 27:02
  for today. Day.
• 27:03
  But that doesn't mean the conversation is over.
• 27:05
  We'd love to hear your thoughts on these topics as well.
• 27:08
  To ask a question about anything we've discussed in this episode
• 27:11
  or to join the conversation, you can head over to fum.
• 27:14
  See Collingswood org slash podcast, thanks for being part
• 27:19
  of this conversation.