Latest / The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast / Breaking News: A conversation about Cornell

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Breaking News: A conversation about Cornell · The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: The following episode will be discussing themes of sexual assault.
0:03
Speaker 1: If you or anyone you know is a victim of
0:05
Speaker 1: sexual assault or abuse, call RAINN's Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE.
0:12
Speaker 2: That's 1-800-656-4673.
0:13
Speaker 3: Hi, everybody.
0:18
Speaker 2: This is Jen Fessler. Welcome to Dirty Rush. I've got
0:21
Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan with me. Hi, everybody. Hi, and we are
0:26
Speaker 2: here to talk about some breaking news We're going to
0:29
Speaker 2: talk about what's going on at Cornell. We are talking
0:33
Speaker 2: to a couple of reporters, one from NPR, one from CBS.
0:38
Speaker 2: This is extremely difficult and important and information that we
0:44
Speaker 2: are gathering here in real time.
0:46
Speaker 4: And they're going to give us some of the facts.
0:48
Speaker 4: You know, there are a lot of feelings about all
0:50
Speaker 4: of this. And so it's important to get some real
0:53
Speaker 4: specific information, I think.
0:55
Speaker 2: Agreed. And we feel like it's also really important. here
0:59
Speaker 2: at Dirty Rush, since what we do is talk about
1:02
Speaker 2: Greek life. We do a lot of happy stories, happy
1:06
Speaker 2: Greek life stories. This is not one of them, but
1:09
Speaker 2: this is a really important conversation to have. Let's welcome
1:13
Speaker 2: in CBS News correspondent, Lilia Luciano.
1:16
Speaker 4: So for anybody who hasn't, who's just hearing about this
1:20
Speaker 4: Cornell 7 case, which is a troubling name. Can you
1:24
Speaker 4: walk us through what Jane Doe alleges happened that night
1:28
Speaker 4: and how the seven men became connected to the case?
1:32
Speaker 5: Well, we've learned the names of these seven men because
1:35
Speaker 5: of a civil lawsuit that Jane Doe filed earlier this month.
1:40
Speaker 5: In it, she claims that there were seven men at
1:45
Speaker 5: various points of the night within a period of Approximately,
1:49
Speaker 5: it could be anywhere between five and seven hours. It
1:52
Speaker 5: seems she allegedly arrived at the fraternity house at around
1:56
Speaker 5: or after 11 p.m. And that what she's saying were
2:02
Speaker 5: these non-consensual encounters began at around or after 1.40 a.m.
2:08
Speaker 5: At least we know from the timestamp of the Snapchat
2:11
Speaker 5: videos or the Snapchat conversation that were that have a
2:16
Speaker 5: time that's after 1 a.m., after 1.40, and according to
2:21
Speaker 5: the civil complaint, it all ended at around 5.40 a.m.,
2:25
Speaker 5: so anywhere between, you know, seven and five hours. She
2:27
Speaker 5: says that at various times, there were a total of
2:30
Speaker 5: seven men in and out of one room, and that
2:36
Speaker 5: she was in a state that she was so intoxicated,
2:40
Speaker 5: according to the civil lawsuit, that she couldn't possibly give consent,
2:45
Speaker 5: that the men, she doesn't specifically say that she engaged
2:51
Speaker 5: in sexual activities or that she was raped by all seven,
2:55
Speaker 5: but she describes being in the middle of threesomes, even
3:01
Speaker 5: after she at one point said that she just couldn't
3:05
Speaker 5: perform anymore because she was out of it. And also
3:09
Speaker 5: there was one moment where she says that, and this
3:12
Speaker 5: according to the first statement that she gave police after
3:15
Speaker 5: this happened a few weeks after, kind of laying down
3:19
Speaker 5: and a group of men were snorting or doing ketamine
3:23
Speaker 5: off of her body. Her attorney has been very clear
3:27
Speaker 5: in saying, look, even if her initial statements to police
3:34
Speaker 5: even though in the statements to police, she talked about
3:38
Speaker 5: feeling like she was rejecting the advances, you know, that
3:42
Speaker 5: she was swapping away some of the men's hands from
3:47
Speaker 5: her body. The DA interpreted her statement as everything was
3:52
Speaker 5: consensual and I can't find a crime here. Her attorney
3:57
Speaker 5: has been saying, look, in cases of sexual trauma, and
3:59
Speaker 5: this is something that the district attorney acknowledged as well
4:01
Speaker 5: in the interviews I did with him, It takes time
4:04
Speaker 5: to go from, you know, denial, he says to shame,
4:09
Speaker 5: to coming to terms with something that could be considered rape.
4:15
Speaker 5: And what we know is the university Cornell university completed
4:20
Speaker 5: a full investigation that lasted for several months. And after
4:27
Speaker 5: that investigation, they expelled two students. They suspended two students.
4:36
Speaker 5: They found two students not to be responsible for sexual misconduct.
4:41
Speaker 5: And one student did not testify. And I believe he
4:45
Speaker 5: graduated before the proceedings ended. The question that a lot
4:49
Speaker 5: of people have and which I have posed to the
4:51
Speaker 5: district attorney and to the university, but the university is
4:54
Speaker 5: not responsive in a direct way. They just direct us
4:58
Speaker 5: to these statements that they have a line is how
5:01
Speaker 5: can someone find actions actionable in expelling at least two
5:10
Speaker 5: students and not present those findings to a district attorney
5:15
Speaker 5: or to an outside police agent. This is kind of
5:18
Speaker 5: the crux of the story. The university completed its investigation.
5:23
Speaker 6: It took four months.
5:24
Speaker 5: They interviewed more than 30 witnesses, including the respondents or
5:29
Speaker 5: what you would call defendants in a criminal case. And
5:34
Speaker 5: in more than 50 interviews and arrived at these conclusions
5:37
Speaker 5: that we're trying to obtain. But because these were Title
5:41
Speaker 5: IX investigations, they're confidential. They did not present those findings
5:46
Speaker 5: to the district attorney. And the district attorney, the only
5:50
Speaker 5: thing he says that he received after what happened was
5:54
Speaker 5: a police statement that Jane Doe gave to police just
5:57
Speaker 5: weeks after the encounter, which he considered did not show
6:01
Speaker 5: enough evidence to a crime to to present charges, and
6:06
Speaker 5: the Snapchat video with the chat that now everyone has
6:10
Speaker 5: seen or heard about, at least on social media or
6:13
Speaker 5: in news coverage, where some of the men were sending
6:16
Speaker 5: messages inviting others to partake in these sexual activities in
6:22
Speaker 5: a very vulgar and disrespectful and concerning way.
6:29
Speaker 4: How did those text messages get leaked? Did one of
6:32
Speaker 4: the fraternity members actually tell the authorities?
6:34
Speaker 5: So what I understand from speaking with attorneys and with
6:40
Speaker 5: a district attorney, I'm trying to remember.
6:45
Speaker 6: Who reported this first, but basically, I'm.
6:50
Speaker 5: Trying to remember how this came out, but somebody who
6:54
Speaker 5: was in the chat, not sure if it was somebody
6:57
Speaker 5: who was in the room at all or who interacted
7:01
Speaker 5: with Jane Doe that night. But somebody who was in
7:03
Speaker 5: that chat, and there were dozens of frat members in
7:07
Speaker 5: that chat, took a video of the chat and sent
7:11
Speaker 5: it to Jane Doe. So this is something that her
7:14
Speaker 5: attorney had, and I believe she gave that to police.
7:17
Speaker 5: But I'm not 100% sure if that's how. What I
7:21
Speaker 5: do know is that police at that point only interviewed
7:24
Speaker 5: Jane Doe. So all the evidence they had to determine
7:27
Speaker 5: whether there was a crime or not was based on
7:30
Speaker 5: two days of interviews. One day she was interviewed. The
7:32
Speaker 5: second day they drafted a statement for her to review, approve,
7:38
Speaker 5: and sign as a sworn statement. And I've read that
7:42
Speaker 5: statement various times. And that statement in itself is very concerning.
7:48
Speaker 5: I think law enforcement sure has a higher bar and
7:51
Speaker 5: the DA has a higher bar for crime. One thing
7:54
Speaker 5: that the DA explained to me is the rules of
7:57
Speaker 5: the university say that consent means affirmatively saying yes. The
8:02
Speaker 5: rules for the New York legal system is you have
8:05
Speaker 5: to say no or be unconscious. And, you know, somebody
8:11
Speaker 5: violates that and then that constitutes a crime. It seems
8:14
Speaker 5: like an incredibly high bar compared to the university one.
8:18
Speaker 5: But if the university did conduct such a thorough investigation,
8:23
Speaker 5: the question remains, why wouldn't they present that to law enforcement?
8:29
Speaker 2: So, yeah, before we came on, we're talking about, was
8:33
Speaker 2: it a 10-page statement?
8:35
Speaker 6: It was a six-page statement.
8:36
Speaker 2: Six-page, excuse me. But before we came on, I saw
8:39
Speaker 2: a report that there was also a one-page or a
8:43
Speaker 2: two-page statement where she was very clear and said she
8:45
Speaker 2: was raped. When did that happen?
8:48
Speaker 3: Right.
8:48
Speaker 5: So there's a number of places and either healthcare workers
8:57
Speaker 5: or officials or law enforcement who heard from her. She,
9:00
Speaker 5: a couple of days after the incident, went to a clinic.
9:05
Speaker 5: And she went to a clinic to ask for, you know,
9:08
Speaker 5: STD tests and treatment for UTI. And she allegedly, and
9:16
Speaker 5: this according to the investigation from the university, she explained
9:20
Speaker 5: to whoever treated her that this UTI was the result of.
9:25
Speaker 6: Trauma.
9:27
Speaker 5: They did not refer, they said you should talk to somebody,
9:29
Speaker 5: but they did not order a rape kit. They did
9:32
Speaker 5: not seem to question her further or even take this
9:37
Speaker 5: to the police. When she goes and she reports it
9:40
Speaker 5: to police, in the room with her was an investigator
9:44
Speaker 5: or a representative from the university's Title IX investigation or
9:49
Speaker 5: Title IX office. What I understand from what the DA
9:53
Speaker 5: told me is that there is a transcript, which CBS
9:57
Speaker 5: News New York reported first this week, of the interviews
10:03
Speaker 5: that she had with police. And I have not seen
10:07
Speaker 5: that transcript, I want to be clear, but our colleagues
10:10
Speaker 5: at WCBS, CBS New York, read parts of that transcript.
10:13
Speaker 5: So this is a transcript of the interviews she did
10:15
Speaker 5: with police. She did two days of interviews. that transcript
10:18
Speaker 5: may have been gathered by the Title IX investigator or representative,
10:23
Speaker 5: the person who was there with her while she was
10:25
Speaker 5: speaking with Cornell University Police.
10:29
Speaker 6: The discrepancy between a.
10:30
Speaker 5: Statement in that transcript and what ended up in the
10:33
Speaker 5: statement is alarming because according to the transcript, she said,
10:37
Speaker 5: I can say with 100% confidence, I was raped. That
10:41
Speaker 5: did not end up in the statement that the district
10:44
Speaker 5: attorney read to decide whether or not to pursue charges.
10:48
Speaker 5: I asked the district attorney, you know, is this an omission?
10:52
Speaker 6: What does this mean?
10:53
Speaker 5: And if there was a crime, even after the university
10:57
Speaker 5: completed its investigation and had their 12 hearings, and there
11:01
Speaker 5: was something that was omitted or somebody found evidence of
11:04
Speaker 5: a crime and covered it up in any way, could
11:07
Speaker 5: that be prosecutable? I mean, could somebody face charges for that?
11:10
Speaker 5: And he said, absolutely, that they are going to look
11:11
Speaker 5: into everything. How then the university carried out their investigation,
11:15
Speaker 5: how the police gathered their evidence, and why didn't a
11:19
Speaker 5: statement so alarming end up in the sworn statement she gave?
11:26
Speaker 4: I had read that as well, what you... just very
11:30
Speaker 4: eloquently and articulately explained. And I thought, how on.
11:34
Speaker 6: Earth is this possible?
11:37
Speaker 5: And one thing that I think is important to learn
11:39
Speaker 5: from this case as you zoom out is what I
11:44
Speaker 5: have heard from the DA explain it to me, what
11:47
Speaker 5: the university has been saying through their statements is that
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Speaker 5: a Title IX investigation is confidential. Its findings are confidential
11:55
Speaker 5: and that the university is is banned by federal law
12:01
Speaker 5: from sharing those results. I've been consulting legal experts and
12:06
Speaker 5: even within CBS to try and understand, is that true?
12:09
Speaker 5: Is it true that everything that comes out of a
12:11
Speaker 5: Title IX investigation, even if they find a crime, is
12:14
Speaker 5: confidential and the university cannot present its findings? And What
12:18
Speaker 5: I've learned is that they cannot make public identifiable information
12:23
Speaker 5: of the people being investigated. But that does not mean
12:26
Speaker 5: that if they find evidence of something that could rise
12:30
Speaker 5: to the level of a crime that they can't or
12:33
Speaker 5: shouldn't present it to a district attorney. I mean, imagine
12:37
Speaker 5: it's unfathomable.
12:40
Speaker 2: It wasn't presented at all in this case. So the
12:43
Speaker 2: university never had any, there was never crossover between the
12:46
Speaker 2: university and and the district attorney's office?
12:50
Speaker 5: In fact, the district attorney dealt with this case in
12:55
Speaker 5: 2024 after she interviewed with Cornell University Police over a
13:02
Speaker 5: period of two days. Those findings, quote unquote findings, that evidence,
13:07
Speaker 5: which was just the statement and the Snapchat, that is
13:09
Speaker 5: what was given.
13:10
Speaker 6: To the district attorney.
13:11
Speaker 5: At that point, the district attorney tells the university, tell
13:16
Speaker 5: her she can come here and we can speak with
13:19
Speaker 5: her and we can go over why we decided not
13:21
Speaker 5: to pursue charges. The district attorney only learns new information
13:27
Speaker 5: through this civil lawsuit. Yet I reported throughout this week
13:31
Speaker 5: that the university had said, and I took a screenshot
13:34
Speaker 5: of this because I found this alarming as well. In
13:39
Speaker 5: their statements, which they refer us to when we ask
13:43
Speaker 5: for comment, the university posted a statement with a frequently
13:47
Speaker 5: asked questions list. And there's a question that asks, did
13:50
Speaker 5: Cornell police adequately investigate the incident? Why didn't they bring
13:53
Speaker 5: in the Ithaca police? And the first line in the
13:55
Speaker 5: initial statement last week was, The Cornell University Police Department
14:00
Speaker 5: investigated the matter in 2024 and shared all investigatory information
14:04
Speaker 5: with the Tompkins County District Attorney's Office.
14:07
Speaker 6: That was back then.
14:08
Speaker 5: All the investigatory information. We're talking about just the victim's
14:12
Speaker 5: statement a few weeks after what happened and the Snapchat.
14:16
Speaker 5: They just changed their statement online. Now, I just I
14:22
Speaker 5: saw this because NPR reported it and my jaw dropped
14:25
Speaker 5: because I have been I had been reading their initial statements.
14:27
Speaker 5: So I had a very clear in my mind and
14:28
Speaker 5: went and found it. Now they're more specific. The Cornell
14:31
Speaker 5: University Police Department investigated the matter in 2024 and shared
14:35
Speaker 5: the victim's sworn statement and the Snapchat screenshots with the
14:39
Speaker 5: Tompkins County District Attorney's Office, which established protocol. if the
14:43
Speaker 5: department believes that a possible crime has occurred. Well, nobody
14:47
Speaker 5: really investigated. And this is not, you know, the district
14:51
Speaker 5: attorney's not off the hook. I've read the statement too.
14:54
Speaker 5: And there are statements in that statement that she gave
15:00
Speaker 5: to the police that are very concerning. There is one
15:06
Speaker 5: where she says that she felt, and I'm paraphrasing, I'd
15:10
Speaker 5: have to find the text. But there is one where
15:13
Speaker 5: she very clearly says, they should have known that I
15:18
Speaker 5: was not in a position to consent. It's one of
15:21
Speaker 5: the last lines in the statement. She says, she's talking
15:24
Speaker 5: about the last threesome. And she says, I don't remember
15:27
Speaker 5: how that threesome started. But I do remember that two
15:30
Speaker 5: of the men were asking me to have sex so
15:33
Speaker 5: many times that I.
15:34
Speaker 6: Finally gave in. To me, that felt like coercion.
15:40
Speaker 5: Also felt like due to my intoxication, they should have
15:43
Speaker 5: known how intoxicated I was based.
15:45
Speaker 6: On how I was learning my words.
15:47
Speaker 5: When a district attorney reads that, the amount of people
15:51
Speaker 5: that were in and out, that she's pointing fingers to,
15:54
Speaker 5: the Snapchat. I mean, I would expect, and I'm not
15:58
Speaker 5: a parent, but I would expect that they dive deeper,
16:02
Speaker 5: that they investigate on their own, that they at least
16:04
Speaker 5: have the ethic of police become involved. A lot of
16:08
Speaker 5: the claims she makes here And what the district attorney
16:11
Speaker 5: just says is, look, the New York law says if
16:13
Speaker 5: you take drugs voluntarily and because of that, you become
16:17
Speaker 5: impaired to the point that you can't consider that coercion,
16:21
Speaker 5: that's not illegal.
16:22
Speaker 6: Moving on.
16:23
Speaker 4: This sounds like there could be more people could be
16:27
Speaker 4: indicted than just these boys. Then that sounds like there
16:31
Speaker 4: is some misconduct.
16:33
Speaker 5: Well, more a lot more people are facing that civil coercion.
16:38
Speaker 5: that civil suit, the complaint names, everyone from even the
16:42
Speaker 5: bar she went to before. But I wonder, we don't
16:48
Speaker 5: have in our hands the full thousand page or so
16:51
Speaker 5: report that came out of that investigation, how much and
16:57
Speaker 5: who had it. It seems that the Title IX internal
17:01
Speaker 5: nature and confidential nature of that investigation certainly shields the
17:05
Speaker 5: university from having to report the crime. not sure what
17:11
Speaker 5: police knew at the time, but this is all, this
17:13
Speaker 5: is what the district attorney's looking into, what they're diving
17:16
Speaker 5: into to understand who knew what, when, and if anything was, and, and,
17:23
Speaker 5: you know, and I asked the district attorney too, the first,
17:26
Speaker 5: I've interviewed him twice and I've spoken with him a
17:28
Speaker 5: total of three times. The first time we spoke, I said,
17:32
Speaker 5: campus police is as good as a regular police agency?
17:38
Speaker 5: Don't they work for the university? Wouldn't you suspect that
17:41
Speaker 5: there is a conflict of interest there?
17:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:44
Speaker 5: He said they are, they're peace officers, they are trained,
17:48
Speaker 5: they're equipped. In fact, he told me the person who
17:50
Speaker 5: interviewed her has extensive experience in dealing with victims of trauma.
17:55
Speaker 5: He had full trust. And then the transcript story comes
17:59
Speaker 5: out that she allegedly said, I can say with 100%
18:03
Speaker 5: confidence I was raped. And now he's backtracking and saying, well,
18:08
Speaker 5: if that is true, then I am, then we.
18:11
Speaker 6: Will do it.
18:12
Speaker 2: Yeah. Lilia, before we have to let you go, tell
18:16
Speaker 2: me who exactly is being named in the civil law school,
18:21
Speaker 2: the civil lawsuit. Is it just Cornell?
18:24
Speaker 6: There is court. Let me look for the, for the lawsuit.
18:26
Speaker 5: I have it here, but the civil lawsuit includes the
18:29
Speaker 5: seven men, It includes the fraternity leadership within the fraternity.
18:36
Speaker 5: It includes the university. It includes the bar.
18:39
Speaker 6: Here it is.
18:40
Speaker 5: Chi Phi Chapter House Association, Cornell University, other parts of
18:49
Speaker 5: the Greek organizations or corporations. Her fraternity is named here,
18:54
Speaker 5: Tri Delta.
18:55
Speaker 6: Her sorority. I'm sorry, her sorority, the nightclub, the bar
18:59
Speaker 6: and nightclub.
19:00
Speaker 2: Why are they, why are, that's so interesting. I wonder
19:02
Speaker 2: why they're naming names.
19:03
Speaker 5: That she wasn't protected from this situation. And then the
19:08
Speaker 5: seven defendants. And I've spoken with some of their attorneys and,
19:12
Speaker 5: you know, they're really concerned about them being grouped together. There,
19:17
Speaker 5: there seems to be a spectrum of, of, of blame
19:22
Speaker 5: and of possible criminality if it is found eventually that,
19:26
Speaker 5: They're concerned because at least one of the defendants, and
19:30
Speaker 5: I've talked to his attorney several times, he says, look,
19:33
Speaker 5: he did not have any kind of sexual encounter with her.
19:39
Speaker 5: She does not allege that in the lawsuit. At no
19:41
Speaker 5: point does she say that my client even touched her.
19:46
Speaker 5: She just says that he was in the room, especially
19:48
Speaker 5: when the ketamine was being consumed. What she alleges is
19:52
Speaker 5: that he was among those who consumed ketamine. He went
19:56
Speaker 5: through a drug test, a follicle test, those hair tests,
20:00
Speaker 5: and it.
20:01
Speaker 6: Showed no evidence.
20:03
Speaker 5: It showed that he did not consume ketamine within the
20:05
Speaker 5: period that it should appear in his system. So, you know,
20:09
Speaker 5: they're saying he's being grouped. The attorneys are being doxed.
20:13
Speaker 5: They're receiving death threats. He says, you know, if his,
20:18
Speaker 5: he says it's been overwhelming and unfair. And he is
20:22
Speaker 5: among the two students who were not suspended or expelled
20:26
Speaker 5: and were found not to be responsible for any of
20:29
Speaker 5: the sexual misconduct.
20:32
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
20:33
Speaker 4: So does that mean it's possible that he could not
20:35
Speaker 4: be culpable in any way, even though he was there
20:39
Speaker 4: in the room? He has no he's not guilty of anything.
20:45
Speaker 5: What the attorney says is, look, the the Snapchat is
20:49
Speaker 5: is is despicable or disgusting or so. I can't remember
20:53
Speaker 5: his wording. But they're recognizing that this was not okay,
20:58
Speaker 5: but that he.
20:58
Speaker 6: Did not participate.
20:59
Speaker 5: And I specifically asked, did he witness anything non-consensual when
21:03
Speaker 5: he was in that room? Did he see anything? He
21:06
Speaker 5: said he did not witness anything that appeared to him
21:08
Speaker 5: to be non-consensual. So there's a lot to understand, to
21:14
Speaker 5: break down, to get down to the facts. And the
21:18
Speaker 5: fact that all of this was confidential allows for a
21:21
Speaker 5: lot of space for speculation and for condemnation and with reasons.
21:27
Speaker 2: Yeah. And lastly, just tell me, when does this turn
21:31
Speaker 2: into a criminal case? So obviously it's, and does it
21:35
Speaker 2: even have to be filed by her or now is
21:38
Speaker 2: it going to, you know, is the state now going
21:40
Speaker 2: to pursue this criminally?
21:41
Speaker 6: Oh, the state is pursuing it.
21:43
Speaker 5: They are opening an investigation and they will make recommendations
21:47
Speaker 5: at some point. They still haven't spoken with Jane Doe.
21:50
Speaker 5: For some odd reason, Jane Doe's attorney has been extremely
21:54
Speaker 5: hard to reach because he was on vacation. What I
21:57
Speaker 5: heard was that he was on vacation in Ireland or something.
22:00
Speaker 5: So he's been very hard to reach for the media
22:02
Speaker 5: and even for the DA, who was quite frustrated.
22:06
Speaker 6: With not getting through to him.
22:08
Speaker 5: But the last I heard was he was trying to
22:10
Speaker 5: meet with her as early as today, but he was
22:12
Speaker 5: not hearing back from her attorney.
22:14
Speaker 6: At some point, he... he hopes to interview today.
22:17
Speaker 5: He says he hopes to receive, I don't know if he,
22:20
Speaker 5: if it's already in his hands, but he was hoping
22:22
Speaker 5: to receive the conclusions, the full document from the internal
22:26
Speaker 5: investigation from Jane Doe's attorney. And if he doesn't receive
22:30
Speaker 5: it from Jane Doe's attorney, all of those documents of
22:32
Speaker 5: what was found in the internal investigation, he will subpoena
22:35
Speaker 5: the university with everything that's out there. I expect that
22:38
Speaker 5: he will subpoena the university.
22:39
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.
22:41
Speaker 5: And then it's a grand jury and they'll decide whether
22:44
Speaker 5: to pursue charges against, you know, any of the men accused.
22:50
Speaker 2: Where can our listeners go to hear you cover the
22:53
Speaker 2: rest of this?
22:54
Speaker 5: Well, I've been covering, I will continue covering this on
22:58
Speaker 5: CBS News. I mean, we're broadcast, we're streaming, and we're
23:01
Speaker 5: social media, obviously. I'm on TikTok and Instagram on at
23:06
Speaker 5: Lilia Luciano, Lilia Luciano.
23:08
Speaker 3: Lilia.
23:09
Speaker 6: With both accents, just in case.
23:10
Speaker 2: So pretty.
23:12
Speaker 5: We share all the coverage between CBS News platforms and myself,
23:17
Speaker 5: and I'll stay on this.
23:19
Speaker 6: There's a lot more to report.
23:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you for joining us.
23:23
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Lillian.
23:23
Speaker 2: We so appreciate it.
23:24
Speaker 6: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
23:26
Speaker 2: Thank you. We are now being joined by Brian Mann,
23:39
Speaker 2: NPR correspondent. Welcome. Hi, Brian.
23:43
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
23:44
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here. You are on
23:46
Speaker 2: the ground. You're in Ithaca, correct?
23:48
Speaker 7: I'm on Cornell's campus right now talking to students. There's
23:51
Speaker 7: been a big, what they're calling a public hearing held
23:54
Speaker 7: by the student organization, the student government here tonight. And yeah,
24:00
Speaker 7: I'm hearing a lot of grief and anger and frustration.
24:02
Speaker 7: It's been a pretty heavy evening here.
24:05
Speaker 3: Yeah.
24:07
Speaker 2: No doubt. So what specifically have you been hearing? What
24:10
Speaker 2: is this? Is it a rally? Do you know who's
24:12
Speaker 2: speaking at it?
24:13
Speaker 7: Yeah, there were many students, also faculty, who talked about
24:18
Speaker 7: what's happened with this initial incident in 2024, the way
24:23
Speaker 7: that Cornell and the police and the prosecutor handled it.
24:27
Speaker 7: And what I'm hearing is that there is a real
24:28
Speaker 7: loss of trust here. People are concerned and frightened about
24:33
Speaker 7: what they see of a lack of proper sort of
24:36
Speaker 7: systemic response. Through the day today, on this day as
24:40
Speaker 7: we're speaking, there's been growing evidence that when police first
24:45
Speaker 7: interviewed this woman in 2024, she actually described in fairly
24:49
Speaker 7: harrowing detail being sexually assaulted. And some of the details
24:55
Speaker 7: she offered to campus police, the transcript suggests that they
24:59
Speaker 7: were quite intense. But there's now some suggestion that those
25:02
Speaker 7: details were not passed to the prosecutor before he decided
25:06
Speaker 7: to shut down the investigation. People here have real questions
25:09
Speaker 7: about why that happened. And I think there's going to be,
25:12
Speaker 7: you know, a lot of outrage in the days going forward.
25:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just heard literally before we got on, I
25:17
Speaker 2: started to hear that the discrepancy between the six pages
25:23
Speaker 2: and the actual, I guess, one page where she said,
25:27
Speaker 2: I was raped. I mean, that's what you're referring to, yes?
25:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fairly graphic discrepancy.
25:32
Speaker 7: There were moments in her nuanced testimony to the officer
25:37
Speaker 7: and also to Cornell University officials where she described, and
25:42
Speaker 7: I'm paraphrasing her here, but she described feeling trapped. She
25:45
Speaker 7: described feeling coerced into taking more drugs. She was already
25:50
Speaker 7: heavily intoxicated when she arrived at the frat party at
25:54
Speaker 7: the frat house. By her account, she was coerced into
25:58
Speaker 7: taking more drugs. And, you know, what's really relevant at
26:02
Speaker 7: this point is that that information appears to have been
26:04
Speaker 7: provided to investigators, but then was not passed up the
26:09
Speaker 7: chain of command to the district attorney.
26:11
Speaker 3: At least that's what he says. He says he was
26:13
Speaker 3: not privy to that information.
26:15
Speaker 7: I think there are also questions, though, given the gravity
26:18
Speaker 7: of what happened on that night two years ago. why
26:21
Speaker 7: the district attorney didn't go ahead and ask questions. Remember,
26:25
Speaker 7: he shut down this investigation before ever talking to this
26:29
Speaker 7: young woman, never asked additional questions. He relied only on
26:33
Speaker 7: this six-page summary. It was signed by her. And he
26:37
Speaker 7: said that that was, you know, really dispositive, that that
26:41
Speaker 7: settled his mind. But given that she was describing a
26:44
Speaker 7: truly troubling incident, you know, seven men in a room
26:48
Speaker 7: with her. She went to police to say that she
26:51
Speaker 7: felt something criminal had occurred. You know, the fact that
26:54
Speaker 7: there was no follow up, no additional questions, no gathering
26:58
Speaker 7: of phone records or other evidence. I think that there
27:01
Speaker 7: are going to be a lot of questions asked going forward.
27:04
Speaker 7: The governor of New York has called for this independent audit.
27:07
Speaker 7: The state's attorney general, Letitia James, has said she wants answers.
27:12
Speaker 7: And so I think we're seeing just, you know, the
27:15
Speaker 7: first doors opening on this situation now.
27:17
Speaker 3: Yeah.
27:18
Speaker 2: I heard him say that it was the behavior was despicable.
27:22
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm paraphrasing despicable, disgusting, you know, unspeakable. And
27:27
Speaker 2: yet it wasn't. under New York guidelines illegal, right? Is
27:32
Speaker 2: that sort of been his response?
27:34
Speaker 3: That's been his narrative so far.
27:36
Speaker 7: And one thing that is interesting is that almost everyone
27:39
Speaker 7: agrees that what happened that night by the description that
27:42
Speaker 7: we've received was pretty awful. So there is this question then,
27:47
Speaker 7: did it rise to the level of being criminal? And
27:50
Speaker 7: I think as we learn more about what this young
27:54
Speaker 7: woman said, I think that's an open question. And obviously,
27:57
Speaker 7: you know, there's a lot of investigation ahead here now,
28:01
Speaker 7: although it will be very difficult to conduct a proper
28:04
Speaker 7: investigation two years after the fact. You know, a lot
28:07
Speaker 7: of the phone records, the data, the electronic information will
28:11
Speaker 7: be very difficult to collect. you know, physical evidence, uh,
28:15
Speaker 7: will be difficult to collect. Um, and so it's going
28:18
Speaker 7: to be challenging to try to re construct some kind
28:21
Speaker 7: of justice here.
28:23
Speaker 4: What is, what's the biggest difference between what would need
28:26
Speaker 4: to be proven in the civil lawsuit versus a criminal case?
28:30
Speaker 3: Well, that's a profound difference in the civil case.
28:33
Speaker 7: You know, there is a, a much lower standard of
28:37
Speaker 7: evidentiary procedure. A lot more information would be allowed into
28:41
Speaker 7: that trial. This is assuming it all goes forward without
28:43
Speaker 7: some kind of settlement. The standard of proving liability in
28:50
Speaker 7: a civil lawsuit is much lower. In a criminal case,
28:54
Speaker 7: of course, you have to prove that somebody is guilty
28:57
Speaker 7: beyond reasonable doubt. That's always difficult in sex crime cases.
29:02
Speaker 7: Certainly in a case like this, where the evidence has
29:07
Speaker 7: not been passed through the chain of command, according to
29:11
Speaker 7: what we're hearing today in a fluid way, that makes
29:14
Speaker 7: it even harder. So I think the idea of there
29:18
Speaker 7: being a criminal case here, we'll have to see where
29:22
Speaker 7: that goes. But I think what everyone here is expecting
29:25
Speaker 7: is that most of the action will happen in that
29:27
Speaker 7: civil proceeding.
29:28
Speaker 2: Yeah. What about that? What about the president? Where is,
29:32
Speaker 2: you know, has he said anything or she said? I'm
29:34
Speaker 2: not sure. Cornell's president is.
29:36
Speaker 7: It's a man. And what I know is that from
29:41
Speaker 7: their communication with me is that Cornell's leadership has agreed to.
29:46
Speaker 3: At least a somewhat independent investigation.
29:49
Speaker 7: We're really waiting to see who will run that, how
29:52
Speaker 7: it will be structured, how independent it will actually be.
29:56
Speaker 7: And those questions will be sweeping. It will not just
29:59
Speaker 7: be what happened that night. It will also be, is
30:02
Speaker 7: the campus culture safe? How does Greek life fit into,
30:06
Speaker 7: you know, the wider social life here, the safety of
30:10
Speaker 7: the cultural life? I've spoken to so many people here,
30:13
Speaker 7: and this is really interesting. who say they value Greek life.
30:17
Speaker 7: It's a big part of campus culture here. But at
30:21
Speaker 7: the same time, I've spoken to people who say that
30:23
Speaker 7: they often do not feel safe. They feel like there
30:26
Speaker 7: is a power dynamic that often exists around those parties.
30:31
Speaker 3: They tend to be.
30:32
Speaker 7: And I'm recounting descriptions that others have said to me
30:34
Speaker 7: that they are very male dominated, that often the fraternities
30:38
Speaker 7: will structure how the entire party works. They often are
30:42
Speaker 7: able to structure how people arrive, when they're able to leave.
30:46
Speaker 7: And so just some of those very basic dynamics, people
30:49
Speaker 7: are saying, we just, we think there's something here that
30:51
Speaker 7: needs reform and change. And so that's going to be
30:53
Speaker 7: part of this investigation, I think, for sure. Of course,
30:56
Speaker 7: the fraternity that's implicated in this case is no longer
31:01
Speaker 7: on campus. They were banned from campus after the 2024 incident.
31:05
Speaker 4: Tonight and what you're experiencing on campus, is there a
31:08
Speaker 4: gender split or is it men and women that are
31:11
Speaker 4: out there at this? kind of you know event protests
31:15
Speaker 4: right now it's a.
31:16
Speaker 7: Really good question and i did look at that and
31:18
Speaker 7: i have to say it looked pretty balanced to me
31:21
Speaker 7: most of the speakers were women but there were a
31:24
Speaker 7: lot of men there um most of the people i've
31:27
Speaker 7: been speaking to have been women most of my interviews
31:30
Speaker 7: and so most of what i'm recounting to you uh
31:32
Speaker 7: comes from women but there were men who testified and
31:35
Speaker 7: um one of the things i specifically heard from a
31:37
Speaker 7: young man i didn't get his name um is he
31:41
Speaker 7: really spoke about how important it is to keep the
31:44
Speaker 7: focus on the alleged victim in this case, this young
31:48
Speaker 7: woman who has left campus. It does appear that at
31:51
Speaker 7: least some of these men, the seven men involved in
31:54
Speaker 7: this incident are still on campus, are still enrolled as students.
31:59
Speaker 3: She's gone, however.
32:00
Speaker 7: And this young man who spoke tonight said something I
32:03
Speaker 7: heard over and over again, that there's enormous sorrow for her,
32:06
Speaker 7: for her lost opportunity for the moment. You know, when
32:09
Speaker 7: you go back and look at some of the records
32:11
Speaker 7: of the shame that she reportedly felt, you know, this
32:16
Speaker 7: is a young woman who was trying to have fun.
32:19
Speaker 7: She was trying to be, you know, part of campus
32:22
Speaker 7: cultural life and have a celebration with these people. And
32:27
Speaker 7: it ended really horribly that night for her. And so
32:31
Speaker 7: there was real sorrow in that room from men and
32:34
Speaker 7: women for her fate.
32:35
Speaker 2: Did she drop out, Brian? Did she graduate? What happened?
32:40
Speaker 3: No, she withdrew.
32:40
Speaker 7: And my understanding from Cornell officials is that they did
32:46
Speaker 7: refund at least part of her tuition. But that is
32:49
Speaker 7: one of the things that people here. Yeah, that's unclear
32:52
Speaker 7: to me. There's a lot from Cornell that we don't know.
32:55
Speaker 7: But that is one of the things that there's and
32:57
Speaker 7: I just I have to use the word rage. There's
32:59
Speaker 7: a real rage here. People believe and I'm just describing
33:02
Speaker 7: their words to me. They believe that the school has
33:05
Speaker 7: not supported her, that it has not supported victims, that
33:09
Speaker 7: there is not the proper structure. People have the belief
33:13
Speaker 7: that the school is more focused on finances, on its
33:16
Speaker 7: public image, and that when situations like this occur, that
33:22
Speaker 7: there is not enough done for women who experience this.
33:25
Speaker 7: There was a survey done in 2025, released this year,
33:27
Speaker 7: where Women here said one in three of them experienced
33:33
Speaker 7: some kind of coercive sexual experience, some kind of sexual
33:37
Speaker 7: assault during their time at Cornell. And so people are
33:41
Speaker 7: really looking at this incident as horrific as it was
33:44
Speaker 7: in the description. They're really looking at this as something
33:46
Speaker 7: that's kind of symbolic of a wider problem. And people
33:50
Speaker 7: here really want that to change.
33:51
Speaker 2: Has her name been circulating around? I mean, we haven't
33:54
Speaker 2: heard it happily. I think she wants it if she
33:57
Speaker 2: does want to remain anonymous. But there has her name
34:00
Speaker 2: been circulating?
34:01
Speaker 7: I think a lot of students do know her, but
34:06
Speaker 7: it is not being widely spread. Meanwhile, there is an
34:10
Speaker 7: actual public shaming kind of event happening here for the
34:15
Speaker 7: men involved. They're on social media, in public spaces. People
34:19
Speaker 7: are saying their names. They have not, to be clear,
34:21
Speaker 7: been charged with any crimes. They are named in the
34:23
Speaker 7: civil lawsuit. But yes, so she has not been named widely.
34:28
Speaker 7: My understanding is that on social media, some people have
34:31
Speaker 7: been doxing her and essentially trying to out her. But
34:36
Speaker 7: at least here on campus, people are being very protective.
34:49
Speaker 4: Where do you think the bystander effect fits into all
34:52
Speaker 4: of this and are On campus, are they talking about that,
34:55
Speaker 4: the culpability of those that perhaps weren't physically involved but
34:59
Speaker 4: were aware?
35:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really troubling to people.
35:02
Speaker 7: One of the things that's being talked about is how
35:04
Speaker 7: many people were on that Snapchat exchange where the fraternity
35:10
Speaker 7: members were inviting other men to come take part while
35:14
Speaker 7: this woman was in the room. And there were dozens
35:18
Speaker 7: of fraternity members on that exchange. It wasn't just those
35:24
Speaker 7: who spoke up. There were many others who saw that
35:30
Speaker 7: back and forth and the extraordinarily crude jokes. And I
35:35
Speaker 7: think there is dismay that. that there wasn't an intervention,
35:39
Speaker 7: that someone didn't step forward. And that's something that I
35:43
Speaker 7: heard talked about here tonight a lot is the need
35:46
Speaker 7: to really create more culture around the idea that when
35:49
Speaker 7: something like this is happening that, you know, and frankly,
35:52
Speaker 7: something much milder than this, that, you know, there needs
35:55
Speaker 7: to be a culture on college campuses where, you know,
35:57
Speaker 7: it doesn't have to get to this medieval level before
36:01
Speaker 7: men and women say that's unacceptable.
36:04
Speaker 3: Right. That's a vital part of it.
36:07
Speaker 4: Vital, vital.
36:08
Speaker 2: It's hard for us to digest. And I'm over here
36:11
Speaker 2: in New Jersey, and Lisa's in San Francisco.
36:14
Speaker 4: And we're both the mother of daughters. Mine's younger. I
36:17
Speaker 4: have a 14-year-old daughter. All of these things, it's keeping
36:23
Speaker 4: everyone up at night, to say the least.
36:25
Speaker 2: I'm surprised that leadership hasn't said anything.
36:28
Speaker 7: I think right now, Cornell's leadership is clearly... in shock
36:32
Speaker 7: with what's happened here. This escalated very quickly. And some
36:36
Speaker 7: of their steps and their measures have been, you know,
36:39
Speaker 7: very difficult to follow. I'll tell you one thing that
36:41
Speaker 7: our member station here, WSKG found was that earlier in
36:47
Speaker 7: the week, Cornell had posted on their website that their
36:50
Speaker 7: campus police had given all investigatory material to the district attorney,
36:55
Speaker 7: that they'd given everything. And then quietly they removed that
36:59
Speaker 7: claim from their website. And so they're clearly trying to
37:03
Speaker 7: find their narrative here. This is a firestorm. It doesn't
37:07
Speaker 7: get any bigger than this. And so it's gonna be interesting,
37:11
Speaker 7: but I will say coming to the point here of
37:13
Speaker 7: tonight's session, these students want a clear statement.
37:17
Speaker 3: They want leadership.
37:18
Speaker 7: They want, you know, one of the things that I heard,
37:20
Speaker 7: this was heartbreaking. I'm a dad and I had one
37:24
Speaker 7: young woman, her name's Anna. She said, you know, we're
37:27
Speaker 7: really kids. You know, she said, I'm 20 and I
37:31
Speaker 7: want adults to be figuring out how this should work
37:35
Speaker 7: and how we can be kept safe.
37:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was such a powerful statement.
37:38
Speaker 6: She's exactly right.
37:40
Speaker 3: She's exactly right.
37:41
Speaker 7: And I think, you know, I think that Cornell is
37:45
Speaker 7: under enormous pressure, but I think the clock is really
37:47
Speaker 7: ticking for them.
37:48
Speaker 3: You know, I've been asking parents.
37:50
Speaker 7: Hourly, practically, for an interview, for someone to sit down
37:53
Speaker 7: and ask fair, nuanced, balanced questions.
37:58
Speaker 3: And so far, they've declined.
38:00
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't even imagine what leadership does now
38:05
Speaker 2: to try to come back from this. Do you think
38:06
Speaker 2: there's any coming back from this? I can't imagine that
38:10
Speaker 2: their admission is going to be up this year.
38:13
Speaker 7: It's a really interesting question. As a reporter, my job
38:17
Speaker 7: is to watch what happens and talk about it. So
38:19
Speaker 7: I'm not going to predict what's going to happen to
38:21
Speaker 7: Cornell's leadership. I will say this. I do, again, think
38:25
Speaker 7: the window of opportunity for them to find their voice,
38:28
Speaker 7: to give a clear plan for where this is going
38:30
Speaker 7: to go, to come forward and speak in interviews. I
38:35
Speaker 7: think that window is narrow at this point. People really
38:38
Speaker 7: want to hear what they have to say. And it's
38:39
Speaker 7: not just students, it's alumni, it's donors. You know, the
38:44
Speaker 7: local newspaper here on campus, this wonderful student-led newspaper, The
38:50
Speaker 7: Daily Sun, they reported that Nancy Pelosi canceled a trip
38:54
Speaker 7: here because she's outraged by this. And you know, so
38:57
Speaker 7: these are, these are wounds for sure. And the school
39:00
Speaker 7: is going to have to hustle now to, to get
39:02
Speaker 7: ahead of this. But so far that has not happened.
39:06
Speaker 2: Wow. I have friends and friends, kids who graduated Cornell.
39:12
Speaker 2: Some that are actually there right now. And you do too.
39:15
Speaker 2: It's are just in mourning right now.
39:17
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's an opportunity to be
39:22
Speaker 4: That's what leadership is in my mind, is to be
39:24
Speaker 4: accountable and to face something head-on that's the opportunity that
39:28
Speaker 4: they have and i hope that they take it yeah.
39:32
Speaker 7: One of the one of the young people in this
39:33
Speaker 7: in this session here said uh the line they said
39:36
Speaker 7: was we don't want administrators we want leaders And that's
39:40
Speaker 7: a distinction that I think is really important in.
39:42
Speaker 1: A moment like this.
39:44
Speaker 3: So we'll see.
39:45
Speaker 7: That's definitely a beat in the story that we just
39:49
Speaker 7: haven't heard yet. Lots of other people talking, but we're
39:54
Speaker 7: not clear yet.
39:55
Speaker 6: And I.
39:57
Speaker 7: Think at the heart of it, that suggests that there
40:00
Speaker 7: really could be troubling information here about what happened in
40:03
Speaker 7: the initial investigation and why all of the pertinent information
40:07
Speaker 7: again it's unclear whether criminal charges would ever have been
40:09
Speaker 7: filed anyway but you know for them to have passed
40:14
Speaker 7: a summary to the district attorney from the campus from
40:17
Speaker 7: the campus police to the county prosecutor that made it
40:22
Speaker 7: very clear that this appeared to be a consensual event
40:25
Speaker 7: when they were in fact holding many many quotes many
40:28
Speaker 7: statements many nuanced moments in dialogue with her where she
40:33
Speaker 7: was clearly frightened and clearly felt like something very, very
40:37
Speaker 7: ugly had happened. You know, I think it's going to
40:40
Speaker 7: take a while to get to the bottom of that.
40:42
Speaker 2: Yeah. Brian, is the rally already happened or is it coming?
40:45
Speaker 2: And is it going to be televised?
40:47
Speaker 7: There are more rallies that are going to be here.
40:49
Speaker 7: I was just seeing a poster for that. This event
40:51
Speaker 7: tonight was more somber than a rally. It was really
40:55
Speaker 7: just students getting up and speaking and talking. And so, yeah,
41:00
Speaker 7: but I think we will see more of that. And yeah,
41:05
Speaker 7: it's going to be interesting to see how this evolves
41:06
Speaker 7: in the days ahead.
41:08
Speaker 3: Yeah.
41:09
Speaker 4: Thank you so very much for taking this time with us.
41:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, we appreciate you.
41:15
Speaker 7: Oh, I'm glad to do it. Thank you so much
41:16
Speaker 7: for letting me join your conversation.
41:18
Speaker 2: Thank you, Brian.
41:19
Speaker 4: Thanks, Brian.
41:20
Speaker 2: Okay, guys. Listen, Lisa, thank you so much for being here.
41:25
Speaker 4: Thank you for inviting me over to talk about this.
41:29
Speaker 4: It's incredibly important to have a voice. And I really
41:33
Speaker 4: appreciate that those young people on campus are using theirs.
41:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, so do I. And we're going to continue to
41:40
Speaker 2: talk about it. And we're going to talk about it
41:42
Speaker 2: on our shared true crime podcast, because it is so
41:47
Speaker 2: important and there are still so many questions. So you
41:51
Speaker 2: guys stick with us. Coverage will continue. Yeah.