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Up Up and Away with Nonfiction Author Steve Younis · WriterCon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: One piece of advice I would give to writers is
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: just start is you know, we all have that imposter
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: syndrome of who am I to write a book?
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  Speaker 3: Who am I to say?
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  Speaker 2: You know that I have anything worth other people wanting
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: to read? And really everybody doesn't matter what, whether you're
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: in fiction, non fiction, whatever it is, you have a
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: story to tell and there are people out there who
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: want to read it.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Khan, a gathering place for writers to
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  Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Do
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: you have a desire to write? Every successful writer started
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: with their first book. All it takes is determination and knowledge,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: and writer Con can provide that knowledge. Your hosts are
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  Speaker 1: number one national best selling writer William Bernhardt, author of
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: more than sixty books, including The Superman Wars, and Laura Bernhardt,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Award winning author of the Wantlan File series and Shadow
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: of the taj.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich, Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining us. Look,
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: I did a little research, and do you too, Laura. Jesse,
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  Speaker 4: do you recall what topic we discussed almost exactly three
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: years ago on the episode we recorded on the writer
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  Speaker 4: cun Cruise. You didn't know I was going to open
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  Speaker 4: with like final Jeopardy.
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  Speaker 1: Did you only because I read the script a second ago.
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  Speaker 4: Ah, okay, well let me help you out. I know
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  Speaker 4: what you remember best from that cruise. It was the
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: spicey romance. That's not it, although thank you Amy Burer,
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  Speaker 4: the agent we had on time, she knows her business.
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  Speaker 4: But no, I was thinking more of hockey romances. That's
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: when we first did a news story about hockey romances,
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  Speaker 4: which have only gotten more huge since then.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Oh that's a good one. I saw what you did.
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  Speaker 4: They're very good. They are more popular and apparently, in
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  Speaker 4: some instances more extreme. Some people online are now calling
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  Speaker 4: it hockey porn. And of course the television series Heated Rivalry,
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  Speaker 4: which I will have to admit I haven't actually seen,
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  Speaker 4: but it is wildly popular. And Laura talking to you
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  Speaker 4: now because we've got a daughter who is a big
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  Speaker 4: not even habitually a voracious reader. But now she's absorbing
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  Speaker 4: hockey romances.
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  Speaker 6: Right correct, Yes, you're in.
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  Speaker 4: And that's led her to go to actual hockey games.
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  Speaker 6: So I know that she does go to hockey games.
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  Speaker 6: I'm not sure which came first, or if I really
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  Speaker 6: maybe maybe maybe she started reading and decided to check
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  Speaker 6: it out. Maybe, but she does enjoy she does enjoy both,
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  Speaker 6: that's true.
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  Speaker 4: But she does read the books, right, And I think
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  Speaker 4: that's I think, you know, the Hockey League should be
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  Speaker 4: selling these in their gift shops or next to the
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  Speaker 4: popcorn and the hot dogs or whatever.
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  Speaker 5: I think.
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  Speaker 4: The jerseys, yeah, they yeah, they reinforce one another. But
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  Speaker 4: I don't know, Jesse, you're you're a resident sporting expert.
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  Speaker 4: Is there something about hockey that lends itself to fictional romance?
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  Speaker 5: I was just thinking.
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  Speaker 1: I think because of hockey's sort of place in the
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: American sports pantheon of not being one of the super
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  Speaker 1: popular ones, it has a freedom to play with this format.
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  Speaker 1: I think other like I don't think an NFL one
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  Speaker 1: would work as well as a hockey one. I'm not
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  Speaker 1: sure why. I feel like it has to do with
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  Speaker 1: the level of the popularity of the sport in America.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: So the less popular, like the less the fact that
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  Speaker 1: popular it gives people the books. I think because people
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  Speaker 1: if people know less about the sport, they can more
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  Speaker 1: engage with the story.
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  Speaker 7: Right.
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  Speaker 4: I thought maybe it was the violence, because it doesn't
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  Speaker 4: hockey also have the reputation of being the and and
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  Speaker 4: this isn't a country where we have major league football.
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  Speaker 5: But still hockey is the violin hockey.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, hockey's hockey is also one of those where they
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  Speaker 1: have to be It's one of those sports where everyone
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  Speaker 1: playing it, sort of.
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  Speaker 5: Like actual soccer.
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  Speaker 1: Uh, you know worldwide football has to be like an
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  Speaker 1: incredibly good shape, so there's no there's no like chobby
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  Speaker 1: center fielders in hockey.
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  Speaker 6: Help you know the one that I read the I
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  Speaker 6: don't remember any violence in it, but the female protagonist
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  Speaker 6: was a skater, an ice skater, and so there was
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  Speaker 6: some crossover there that the two of them, we're both
• 4:44
  Speaker 6: able to skate.
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  Speaker 1: Are people just writing the Cutting Edge as a romance novel? Now, Like,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we've already we've had this movie.
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  Speaker 5: We know, we know this.
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  Speaker 6: Goes, but no, and then that made it so that
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  Speaker 6: he could kind of step in and help her with
• 4:55
  Speaker 6: her routine.
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  Speaker 1: Anyway.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I've been watching the The ken Burn. There is
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: a documentary series on baseball about thirty years late, but
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  Speaker 4: I finally got to it, and I'm thinking major League
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  Speaker 4: Baseball should hire me to write a baseball romance, because
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  Speaker 4: then baseball will take off right, and maybe it'll become
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  Speaker 4: America's favorite pastime again.
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  Speaker 6: I don't know if anyone's going to hire you to
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  Speaker 6: do it, but if you think there's an audience for that,
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  Speaker 6: you go do it on the curve and kick it off.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, for forgiveness, not permission.
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  Speaker 4: I wouldn't be qualified really to write romance or baseball,
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  Speaker 4: but sure, why not. I haven't let a lack of
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  Speaker 4: qualifications keep me from Listen.
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  Speaker 1: You cannot fail if you refuse to quit, Bill, as
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: you say every time.
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  Speaker 5: I've got that.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, somewhere, take care of advice.
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  Speaker 4: Our interview today is with Steven Eunice, who is a
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: Australian writer on subjects near and dear to my own heart.
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: He hosts Superman Homepage, which is a great website I
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: consulted constantly when I was writing this book of mine
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: coming out in April, The Superman Wars. You wouldn't imagine
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: how much Superman related stuff could be taking place in
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: a single week, but it does.
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: We're going to talk to him.
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: About the difficulties of assembling a nonfiction book in this
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: popular culture arena, which is a boomfield right now in
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: the publishing world. He's written a book called Beyond the Cape.
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: I'll guess for ten minutes, but that's about and a
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: new one called Man of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow.
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  Speaker 5: We'll talk to him about all that and more.
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  Speaker 7: But first the news.
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  Speaker 4: News story number one, book Ryot's twenty twenty six Read
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: Harder Challenge. You've probably heard of other people challenging you
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: to read or your children to read, like the local library.
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: But book Riot, which is a website, does it too.
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: In fact, they do it every year, but they've expanded
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: it this year. They've put out in advance a list
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  Speaker 4: of twenty four tasks, that's two tasks per month to
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  Speaker 4: motivate you into reading, of course, and also expanding your
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  Speaker 4: reading life, diversifying a little bit and reading things you
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  Speaker 4: might not have discovered otherwise. So every month they've got
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  Speaker 4: two chores. Although since you've got the list for the
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: whole year now, you could theoretically work out of order,
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: or you could figure out some kind of book that
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  Speaker 4: covers more than one.
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  Speaker 5: Of the categories.
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  Speaker 4: I think like, have a graphic novel they're written in
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  Speaker 4: a different country that has this kind of character in it,
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  Speaker 4: or something like that. They're trying to get people to
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  Speaker 4: read more. Task twenty read a book set in space.
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  Speaker 4: Task eighteen read a nonfiction book about AI or social media.
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  Speaker 4: So if the book about AI and social media was
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: also set in space, you see what I'm saying, you
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  Speaker 4: can combine them. The idea, of course, is to get
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: you writing. There's a newsletter you can sign up for,
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: and you can go to the website anytime and check
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: out these goals. Lara, does it seem like a good
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  Speaker 4: idea to you?
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  Speaker 6: Yes, anything that encourages people to read seems like a
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  Speaker 6: good idea to me. I And then for me personally,
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  Speaker 6: I kind of like the idea too. I read a
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  Speaker 6: lot of different genres working with authors, so manuscripts and
• 8:47
  Speaker 6: progress that I read expose me to a wide variety
• 8:54
  Speaker 6: of different types of books. So on a personal level,
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  Speaker 6: when I'm reading just to read just for me, I
• 9:02
  Speaker 6: do tend to kind of fall into the same fall
• 9:06
  Speaker 6: back on my favorite authors, into the same genres, the
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  Speaker 6: same types of books.
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  Speaker 3: So I do.
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  Speaker 6: Encourage myself sometimes to reach out and grab something a
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  Speaker 6: little bit different, just so that I don't get stuck.
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  Speaker 6: I mean, eventually I'll get tired of it and I've
• 9:21
  Speaker 6: got to get something and take a break from the
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  Speaker 6: usual and try something different what I'm doing right now,
• 9:26
  Speaker 6: and I'm really enjoying the book that I picked up.
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  Speaker 6: So for you, it's always good, I think to branch
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  Speaker 6: out and do something different, shake it up a little bit.
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  Speaker 4: Jesse, how about you. You intrigued by this list or
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  Speaker 4: are you thinking, hey, don't tell me what to read?
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: If people who need help you expounding upon there.
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  Speaker 5: There earn't enough books out there. Well, here's the thing.
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  Speaker 1: There are so many books out there, and it is
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  Speaker 1: nice that people are like, hey, if you like this,
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  Speaker 1: you might also like this, or here's a way to
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  Speaker 1: try something new. I personally don't need that because I'm
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  Speaker 1: constantly always looking for what I'm going to read next.
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  Speaker 1: I'm also very genre locked in. That's that's because I
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  Speaker 1: spent six years just reading academic historical work. So I'm
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  Speaker 1: good on the nonfiction front for at least another decade.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, I think, listen, if you can gamify getting
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  Speaker 1: people to read more, I'm all for it, Like, let's
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  Speaker 1: share those lists. But you know, it's one of those
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: things where like, again, what is the end goal? What
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: what are they doing with the information I'm giving them?
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: And you know how useful. The output is so.
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: News story number two, Spotify is adding page match to
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: its playlists and whatnot. Let me just tell you upfront.
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: Page match is what Amazon calls whisper sync. It's exactly
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: the same thing. Is the ability to synchronize your ebooks
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: with the audio book equivalent, which is convenient for people
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  Speaker 4: who like to do both back and forth on the
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: same book. Apparently, like you listen to the audio book
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: as you're driving to work, I suppose, but then you
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: read the ebook while you're in your lunch break or
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: something like that. Anyway, Spotify is adding that to their
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: audio books because they've been trying for a long time
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: now to become a hub for audio being audio books.
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: Now.
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: The way the feature works is that it's a little
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: more awkward than what Amazon does. But of course spotifyed
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: it doesn't sell books, so they can't do it the
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: same way. So what you're going to do is scan
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: the page that you're reading like this is where I
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  Speaker 4: left off, using the optical character recognition the OCR that
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  Speaker 4: will then identify the patch the passages and match it
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  Speaker 4: to the times stamp in the audio book, so that
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  Speaker 4: you can go back and forth.
• 12:01
  Speaker 5: I don't think I explained that.
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  Speaker 4: Very well, but you got the general idea, right, Nod
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  Speaker 4: your head, Jesse, Okay, thanks, because you're our audiobook expert.
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: Does this innovation seem like a big deal to you?
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know if this is something people were asking for, Like,
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  Speaker 1: I know I have friends who do sort of the
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: ebook to audiobook switch over depending on where they are
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: and what they're doing. This seems like, I don't know,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: you all tell me if I'm reading a book physically,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I don't think I'm going to be switching between that
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: and the audiobook version of it that often. I mean
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: glad they have this. I was worried at the spot
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: I was just gonna be listening to you and you've
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: like read aloud a passage you're on, so it would
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: know where you are or whatever, scanning.
• 12:46
  Speaker 5: The page easier.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad oc are still around.
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Good for ocr it. It's a long long time like
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: AI type technology. Yeah, I don't know if this is necessary,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, good for Spotify. I suppose I would love
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: to hear if any of our listeners actually would actually
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: be interested in this.
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if you are, please put that in the comments. Yeah, Lara,
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: is this persuading you to get your audio books on Spotify?
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Now?
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: Do you even have a Spotify subscription?
• 13:19
  Speaker 7: I think you.
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: Before?
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do.
• 13:24
  Speaker 6: I do, But I'm a very very recent.
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: Joiner.
• 13:29
  Speaker 6: I just very recently hopped on and actually the first
• 13:34
  Speaker 6: book I published and im and I'm pushing the audio
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  Speaker 6: book out. It's on Spotify now, so I'm interested in
• 13:43
  Speaker 6: seeing how it does. For sure. I also just like
• 13:46
  Speaker 6: the idea of being able to say that my books
• 13:49
  Speaker 6: are on Spotify, so kind of I don't, but I
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: don't know. Yeah, listeners, tell us who who actually uses this,
• 14:00
  Speaker 6: who goes back and forth between audio books and ebooks,
• 14:04
  Speaker 6: and tell us how you utilize that function and how
• 14:09
  Speaker 6: that's most beneficial to you, Cause I'm get.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: Your audio book on Spotify. Does your publisher have to
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: submit it or do they get direct stuff from Audible
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: or somebody? Or how's that worked?
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: You know?
• 14:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it went through I submitted it through find a
• 14:27
  Speaker 6: Way Voices.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say Spotify, which has now been acquired.
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Spotify, and it's not.
• 14:33
  Speaker 6: Called that anymore, is it. I'm still calling it by
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: its old name, but yes, that's how I that's how
• 14:38
  Speaker 6: I did it all right?
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: Interesting, let's move on to Kraft Corner. So our Craft
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: Corner this time is being provided by major friend of writer,
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: Contamra Grantham, who's published how many do you think, a
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: lot of books in a wide range of fantasy genres,
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: including my personal favorite Never Call Me Vampire. This time,
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: she's discussing the pros and cons of traditional publishing versus
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: self publishing, because she's done both, so she can tell
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: you what works and what doesn't.
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: Take it away. Tamara Craft Quarter.
• 15:25
  Speaker 8: Hey, everyone, I'm happy to be able to share some
• 15:27
  Speaker 8: writing knowledge with you. My name is Tamara Grantham, and
• 15:32
  Speaker 8: I am a fantasy author. I've written about twenty novels.
• 15:36
  Speaker 8: Maybe a few more than that.
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 15:38
  Speaker 8: I have to stop and count sometimes. But I have
• 15:42
  Speaker 8: been published traditionally and I self published also, and so
• 15:47
  Speaker 8: I kind of want to discuss how they're different and
• 15:51
  Speaker 8: the pros and cons of each. So the first series
• 15:54
  Speaker 8: that I published was published traditionally with the smaller press.
• 16:00
  Speaker 8: I had to go through the whole process of sending
• 16:03
  Speaker 8: a quarry letter and you know, sending my full manuscript
• 16:07
  Speaker 8: going through the gatekeepers. I did not have an agent
• 16:11
  Speaker 8: so with the smaller press, you don't always have to
• 16:14
  Speaker 8: have an agent, and so I was able to get
• 16:17
  Speaker 8: accepted with a publisher at the time, they were called
• 16:19
  Speaker 8: Clean Team Publishing. I ended up publishing ten books with them,
• 16:24
  Speaker 8: and as far as the pros go, I loved their covers,
• 16:29
  Speaker 8: they were easy to communicate with, and for me, it
• 16:35
  Speaker 8: was a great process, especially publishing my first series with them.
• 16:41
  Speaker 8: I didn't know a whole lot about what I was doing,
• 16:43
  Speaker 8: so that really helped. And then I also ended up
• 16:46
  Speaker 8: publishing my middle grade novels with with a different publishing company,
• 16:52
  Speaker 8: and I won't mention their name just because I didn't
• 16:58
  Speaker 8: have the greatest experience with them, and they decided they
• 17:01
  Speaker 8: weren't going to publish middle grade anymore, so I wasn't
• 17:04
  Speaker 8: able to publish my sequel. They were great though, with
• 17:08
  Speaker 8: helping me get my rights back so that I was
• 17:10
  Speaker 8: able to self publish the next book in the series,
• 17:15
  Speaker 8: so you know, there's I also published four books with
• 17:20
  Speaker 8: Babylon Books, which was also I found to be a
• 17:23
  Speaker 8: great process. Again, the communication was great, the cover artist
• 17:28
  Speaker 8: was great, the editors were great, and I didn't have
• 17:31
  Speaker 8: to pay for any of those things, so that that
• 17:34
  Speaker 8: was a good opportunity for me. But after I published
• 17:37
  Speaker 8: for a while, I started to see like how marketing
• 17:40
  Speaker 8: works and started to see how editing works in the
• 17:43
  Speaker 8: whole formatting process, and I decided I think I could
• 17:46
  Speaker 8: do this myself, and so I self published the Harley
• 17:51
  Speaker 8: Sinclair series along with some of my middle grade books,
• 17:55
  Speaker 8: and I've been happy with that process as well. It
• 17:57
  Speaker 8: is more work, but I do get to keep more
• 18:01
  Speaker 8: of my earnings and I have a lot more say
• 18:06
  Speaker 8: in the whole process. So that's been my experience. I
• 18:12
  Speaker 8: did have an agent for a while, we weren't able
• 18:15
  Speaker 8: to publish anything, and I think I'm going to try
• 18:18
  Speaker 8: again to get an agent for another series that I'm
• 18:21
  Speaker 8: working for, just that I've written just because I think
• 18:24
  Speaker 8: it would do well traditionally published. It's a romanticy and
• 18:29
  Speaker 8: those tend to do well traditionally published, so we'll see
• 18:32
  Speaker 8: how it goes with that. But that's been my experience,
• 18:35
  Speaker 8: and I just wanted to let you know how that
• 18:37
  Speaker 8: worked out for me.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: All right, Thanks, thank you, Tamra Grantham, and please go
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: check out one of her wonderful fantasy novels like Never
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: Call Me Vampire. All right now, let's talk to Steve Yunis.
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: Steve Eunice, Welcome to the podcast.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: Thanks William, I appreciate you having me on.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: I appreciate you coming. I hope you can tell Lauraen
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: and I both dressed for the occasion, not that that's
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: really a stretch for me, but this is soups and
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: crypto and she's got the official thing.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: All right, usual first storier, I feel underdressed, like, yeah.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: You know, where's yours? I thought maybe you were going me,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: so I.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: Thought maybe you're going to rip that open and there
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: was going to be an S shield underneath it.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: But it's every other day I'm wearing one, and today
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: when I choose not to, I'm I'm getting interviewed.
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: So yeah, but as I mentioned a second ago, you
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: may have more action figures behind you than Laura does today,
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: and that doesn't happen very often. All right, First question,
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: if you could offer writers one piece of advice, what
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: would it be.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: One piece of advice I would give to writers is
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: just start is you know we all have that imposter
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: syndrome of.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Who am I to write a book?
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Who am I to say you know that I have
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: anything worth other people wanting to read. And really everybody
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter what, whether you're in fiction, nonfiction, whatever it is.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: You have a story to tell and there there are
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: people out there who want to read it, and so
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: just do it.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: Just get out there.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I mean not to steal a slogan from Nike, but
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: just do it. Just get out there and start, because
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: that's the hardest part, sitting watching that blinking cursor in
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: front of you on a blank screen.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: And you know, not knowing what it is you want
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: to start with.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Just get it in there, get it done, and then
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: you can come back and you know, re edit and
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: you know, fix things up, but just start.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 20:52
  Speaker 6: That's so inspirational. Even when I know what I want
• 20:55
  Speaker 6: to say, I do always struggle with what if no
• 20:58
  Speaker 6: one wants to read it? When I finish writing. We
• 21:00
  Speaker 6: put a lot of effort into books and can be daunting.
• 21:05
  Speaker 6: So tell us how you got started writing.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I've always loved reading, and I think any good writer,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: or anybody good, bad or indifferent, as a writer, you've
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: got to start with knowing having you know, knowing what.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: You like to read.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: And yes, I've always been an avid reader, not necessarily nonfiction,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: which is. I mean, I'm writing about a fictional character,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: but you know, I've just I've loved you know, Stephen King,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Dean Coolins, a lot of these authors that would be
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: very well known to a lot of people, but just
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: yet loved reading and you know, as a kid, loved
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: creative writing, doing short stories and things like that, and
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: having people who want to read, like even if it's
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: just your family, your mother, friend, a teacher who is
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: just like, yeah, keep it up, You've got something there.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Just just continue working at your craft.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: It's that's inspiring because, as I said, you have that
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: imposter syndrome of who am I to write anything? And yeah,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: so having a passion, having an interest and then you know,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: writing what you know, that always is a great point
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: to start.
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: So relatable. Yes, I feel the same way. Started out
• 22:20
  Speaker 6: as a reader and then wanted to get in on it.
• 22:24
  Speaker 6: But you then, about thirty years ago, for some reason,
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: launched the Superman homepage. How did that happen?
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Well, actually I didn't launch it. It was started by
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: a gentleman who in the US who you know, this
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: is very early days of the internet where you know,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four he started a Superman home page and
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: that's pretty much what it was, was just the home
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: page of a site. The Internet was very, you know,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: in its infancy, couldn't really do much. And as a
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: graphic designer who got into web design, and I started
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: looking for things on the Internet as it existed back
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: then with dial up modems. And I'm really aging myself here.
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: I remember.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: We got on and looked for things that I was
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: interested in, and Superman was one of those childhood things
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: that I'd started to.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: Really get interested in again.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I read the novelization of the comic book the Death
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: of Superman storyline, and being an avid reader, I was
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: walking through the bookstore and found saw this cover of
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: this bleeding Superman s symbol and I was like, what's
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: that all about? And picked it up, and then started
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: looking for comic books after that and looked online and
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: found this Superman homepage, and being a graphic designer, offered
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: some assistance to see if I could help out make
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: it look a little bit better and what have you.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: And after about two years of helping him out, he
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: told me that he was he suffered from a red
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: genetic skin disease that predisposed him to cancer and didn't
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: have long to live, and I was completely shocked and
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: was pretty sad, and he was saying, like, I'm going
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: to have to shut down this web page. And I said, look,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: if you think I'm capable enough, I'd love to continue
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: on your work.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: And that started it off.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: What I thought was just going to be a little
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: small hobby grew into something bigger and wilder than I
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: could ever have imagined. It's now thousands and thousands of pages.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: We've got volunteers from all around the globe helping out.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: It's opened up so many doors.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: It's become almost like a full time job for me
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: now where I've been running the page for as you said,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: nearly thirty years.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: It's been online since ninety four.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: I took over in ninety six, and here we are
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: in twenty twenty six, and it's now the number one
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Superman fan side in the world. I've been to world
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: premieres in New York City and a Man of Steel
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: and Batman v.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: Superman Cool.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just become something bigger than I could ever
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: have imagined. And yeah, I'm just really blessed that it's
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: been something that I've loved doing and continued to be
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: able to do.
• 25:01
  Speaker 9: Classic you Yeah, something you loved, grew into that. But
• 25:06
  Speaker 9: also I'm very touched that you continued the legacy for
• 25:09
  Speaker 9: someone who began it and then was not able to
• 25:12
  Speaker 9: see it through.
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: I love that. And then you have two books about
• 25:19
  Speaker 6: our Man of Steel. The first one's called Beyond the
• 25:23
  Speaker 6: Keep love that title. Oh you got it? Excellent? All right,
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: you got in your hand. Tell us about that book.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Covering every aspect of the Man of Steel and following
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: along this journey of James Gunn's Superman film, which was
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: released in twenty twenty five, We at the website covered,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: you know, day by day, what was happening with it,
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: what was going on, the blow blow blow, your releases
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: of this movie is coming out.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: This is what it's called.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: No now we're changing the name of them from Superman
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Legacy to just Superman.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: We're filming here.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: These are the people who are being cast, and all
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: that information was being collated and collected along the way.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, there's a book in this, because
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: there's the whole journey from a fans perspective, from the
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: outside looking in of how this developed and how this
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: was coming together. And all I had to do was
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: find a narrative of all those touching points to be
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: able to connect it all together and piece it together,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: and yeah, find you know, just find a story from
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: the fans perspective, looking from the outside looking in, of
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: how this film was coming together. So many I've been
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: running this website, as I said, for thirty years, and
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: I've never been busier reporting on anything than I have
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: been with James Gunn Superman film because there was just
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: so much coming out.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: Day by day.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: There was you know, where is this film? Filming locations,
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: the merchandise, the marketing. It was just so much happening
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: that there was so much content, and I thought, well,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: there is you know, this information is up on my website,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: but it's not been there's nowhere you can see it
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: all in one place, and there's no you know, from
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: the outside looking in a fans perspective on just how
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: this is coming together. So I thought, well, that's that's
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: a that's a book there, And so I put it.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: Together and turned out you were right. And now you've
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: got a second book on a related theme manner of yesterday,
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: today and tomorrow. What are you doing in that one?
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: Well?
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Again, this one, I was it kind of once you
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: start on one topic, it was like, hang on, there's
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: there's more here. I mean, there's a wealth of information
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: that I am sitting on from this this website. And
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: one of the things that we do at the Superman
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: homepage is we have a like a calendar of premieres
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: birth dates of all the different actors, comic book releases,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: movies when they came out, you know, DC over the years,
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: I think it was a nineteen seventy six had a
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: calendar of all the character birthdays, like, so you know,
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: as we know Clark Kent's birthdays on February twenty ninth,
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: and why that is, and or Superman's birthday should say
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: is on February twenty ninth and why he celebrates it
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: on that And when's Lower Slange's birthday? So we have
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: all these calendar dates across the whole world of Superman,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: and I thought, again, there is I tried to do
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: a calendar at one point and release that on like
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: an Etsy type of thing, and DC like wrapped me
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: over the knuckles, said no, you cannot do that, pull
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: that down. And I was like, but there's there's information
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: here that the fans want to know about. Again, how
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: can I find a narrative to connect all those kinds
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: of things? And I thought, well, that calendar based idea
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: is still worth exploring. But so this book is broken
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: up into chapters that are January, February, March, April, May,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: et cetera. And looking at what do those months usually
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: kind of relate to.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: So January is obviously the beginning.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Of the year, so we're looking at, you know, new beginnings.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: And so look at the dates or that are in
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: the world of Superman in January and connect them together
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: and again, find a narrative that connects all those different things.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: And when you look at all these dates, and sometimes
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: you have like a birth date and anniversary of someone's death,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: and all these things that land on the same day,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: and there's like, well, that's kind of like a cosmic
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: coincidence that these three things happen to fall on the
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: same day in the world as Superman, and what does
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: that tell us about the character? And so that kind
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: of started spurring all these ideas, and so it's a
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: calendar of significant birthdays, premieres, and milestones in Superman's history,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: collected together in an interesting calendar based type you know collection.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: Well, one thing all those dates coming together tells you
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: is this character has been around a long time. Of
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: course he has. Why does it still seem so relevant?
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: Why why do people rally so around this almost ninety
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: year old character.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: I think because each generation gets the Superman that they need.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: So if we look at the you know, the nineteen
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: thirties nineteen forties were coming out of when I say
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: we I wasn't born then, I'm not that old, but
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: you know, the world was coming out of the Great
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Depression and World War you know one was you know,
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: in the nineteen forties, and so the character kind of
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: inspired a lot of people at the time who were
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: looking for something for an escape from all the things
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: that were going on around the world and especially in
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: the US when Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster created the character.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: And then in the nineteen fifties you get the George
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Reeves TV series where we're kind of like in that
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: era of you know, there's a boom in society and
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: you know, we're looking at towards a more positive aspect
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: of life, and we get that whole truth justice in
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: the American waste slogan that really becomes so prevalent at
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: that time from the TV series and obviously the radio
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: series that came before it, and then the nineteen sixties
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: and nineteen seventies we get that silver age.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: You know, we're looking to the stars.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: You know, we've gone to the moon in sixty nine,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: and so we start looking outwards towards space, and you
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: get those more cosmic adventures of Superman that happened in
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: the comic books at that time, and the outlandish things
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: we get Brainiact, we get all these kinds of characters
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: that come from a more cosmic view of the character.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: And then in the eighties we're grounded again. We've come
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: back to look at Superman. You know, we go through
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: the death of Superman in the nineties because you know,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: do we need the character anymore? Is he really relevant anymore?
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: We've got all these anti heroes, and so let's kill
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: him off. And then like the world goes crazy, like,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: you know, you Superman's important. We can't kill him off.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: He's part of Americana and part of our collective consciousness.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: So how dare you kill him off? And there's a
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: big uproad, and of course they've always going to bring
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: him back. And then so you know this whole idea
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: of Superman is part of our public consciousness, is part
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: of pop culture, and every generation gets the Superman that
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: they need, and therefore he's always relevant. And in current times,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: he's become a father, he's married Lowest, he's got children,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: he's got a child with if the TV series, he's
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: got twins, so they bring him into that. Well, the
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: audience that's reading him has grown up. It's you know,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: adults in their thirties forties who are reading Superman now,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: not necessarily the kids anymore, who have got TikTok and
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: things to kind of keep them occupied. So Superman's stories
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: have to mirror the audience that are reading him, and
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: so as adults ourselves, we're looking at Superman to be
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: more relevant to us. So yeah, I think he's just
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: adapted and matured as the generations have gone along to
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: be the Superman that each generation needs.
• 32:47
  Speaker 6: I wouldn't have been super impressed if you were born
• 32:51
  Speaker 6: in the thirties and forties.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: By the way, my skin care you want to know reglarkable,
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: that's fascinating though, that's need.
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you just a couple of minutes ago mentioned Siegel
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: and Schuster, and I think you know that my fourthcoming book,
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: The Superman Wars, is essentially a biography of Jerry Siegel.
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: You know that story, you know how it Jerry Seal
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: being the originator of the idea for Superman, the writer
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: and you know, you know, but that didn't always turn
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: out so well. So what are your thoughts on that?
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: Do you have anything you'd like to say on this subject?
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's a fascinating topic to discuss because there
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: have been so many rumors and innuendo over the year
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: about just who is in the right, who is in
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: the wrong. And the more you get into it, and
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: the more you see the letters that Jerry has written
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: over the years back and forth to DC, and you know,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: is it was it a massive corporation, you know, just
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: you know, kicking the small guy to the curb, or
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: was you know, were they well compensated for the work
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: that they did and just got greedy. It's there are
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: so many facets to this story that it is really fascinating.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: And I think, look, I think they'll you know, from
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: my perspective, the more I read, they were very well
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: compensated and we're living the high life early in those years,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: for a while they were yeah, they were quite well,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: doing very you know well, and I think maybe we're
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: a little bit naive.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: To think that it would just continue on forever.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: And and then I think Jerry, you know, maybe did
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: get a little bit greedy and wanted to, you know,
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: while things were really well, going really well, thought hey,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: hang on, I can get a bigger piece of the
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: pie here, and started poking the bear, so to speak.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: And I think maybe pushed too far and then got ousted,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: and yeah, it's it's it's one of those stories where
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: there are so many, you know, different angles that you
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: can come at it from that it's hard to know
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: just where to land on whether do you feel sorry
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: for them and say, geez, they you know, could be
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: multimillionaires and probably did well for the time and we're
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: living the high life. But then you know things, the
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: drug got pulled out from underneath them at a point, and.
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, multiple things can be true, yes exactly.
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: I see.
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: You know, when Lauren and I talk about writing fiction,
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: I always say, bad guys are boring. You should have
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: an antagonist who has a real motivation, you know, a
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: reason for doing what they do. And that's you know,
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: now that I've written four hundred pages.
• 35:43
  Speaker 5: On the subject or whatever.
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: I don't see it as good guys versus bad guys anymore.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: It's art versus commerce.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's.
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: People in different camps who want a very different thing.
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: And yeah, everybody's behavior could have been better, but that's
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: what it comes down to.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Well, don't they always say the villain thinks that they're
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: the hero of their own story.
• 36:07
  Speaker 5: Yes, yes, Well.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: I could geek out and talk with you all day, Steve, obviously,
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: but I can see you're already well past her anticipated time.
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: Thank you so.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: Much for being on the podcast. It's really been a pleasure.
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: Maybe we can get you back sometime in the future.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: I would love to. As you can tell, I can.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: I can talk underwater when it comes to Superman, so
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate you having.
• 36:33
  Speaker 6: Me on that Supergirl. Are we excited about that movie?
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: One hundred percent.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: I think the upcoming movie is going to be fantastic,
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: and I think there's a lot to look forward to
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: because the way they're coming at it, she's not Superman
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: with a skirt.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: She's her own character.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: So I think that's what fans need to remember, is
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: that we don't want a female clone of Superman.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: We want her to be.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Her own person, and the fact that she grew up
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: on Krypton and saw everyone she loved, you know, in
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: her world, that she knew this, she's going to have
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: some emotional baggage that's going to.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: Make her a little bit jaded compared to who Superman is.
• 37:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm excited to see this stake for sure.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: Plus it's based on a great book, right Tom King, Yeah,
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: the Supergol movie.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Supergol Woman of Tomorrow is definitely a breakaway from
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: what fans will remember from you know, either the Silver
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Age or Helen Slater's version of Supergirl. So yeah, come
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: at it with an open mind because this is not
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Melissa Banois Supergirl. Even This is a completely different take
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: on the character, but one well worth exploring.
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: All Right, was I signing off?
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: I think we need to do one of those subscriber
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: things where you get the other cool twenty minutes that
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: happened after, because then we could talk some more. But okay,
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: wrapping it up, Steve, thanks for being on the podcast.
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: Thanks Will, Thanks Lara, thank you.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: Just a few parting words. I'm afraid the writer con
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: Cruise has sailed. I mean, not actually but registrations are closed.
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: You can still email if you want to make sure
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: they're closed, but I think they're going to be closed.
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: My email address is Willburn at gmail dot com. But
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: fret not, because there's a lot more writer Con potentially
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: in the future. The retreat will be taking place in July.
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: That's where Laura and I and three other teachers meet
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: with a much smaller group of writers so that we
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: can interact directly. We can read your material, we can
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: give you feedback. There will also be large set sessions
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: and chances for you to meet the other people in
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: the group, learn about their books, and basically form your
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: next support group or critique group or beta readers or
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: whatever you want to call them. That's the writer Con
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: of retreat that's in July at Caine Break And then
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: of course the big event, the conference this fall. It's
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: always Labor Day weekend, and it is this year too.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: I believe that September fourth through seven we're going to
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: break new records. I predict this year, and I know
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: we've got the best lineup of guests we have ever had.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: So I know it's several months away, but you might
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: start thinking about coming to writer Con this year, Laura,
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: I see you're shaking your head or nodding your head.
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: What are you saying, I'm nodding.
• 39:42
  Speaker 6: Yes, I'm so excited about the retreat. I'm looking forward
• 39:46
  Speaker 6: to that. We have such a good time there. We
• 39:49
  Speaker 6: have all of our meals together. We really do spend
• 39:52
  Speaker 6: just a really good amount of time. So you get
• 39:55
  Speaker 6: plenty of chances to speak with Bill, speak with if
• 40:00
  Speaker 6: you want to reach out, connect with other aspiring authors.
• 40:06
  Speaker 6: And I know for a fact that our groups who
• 40:10
  Speaker 6: have met up at cam Break with us are still
• 40:13
  Speaker 6: connected and still helping support each other. And I'm super
• 40:18
  Speaker 6: excited about the conference too. And yeah, it's never too
• 40:22
  Speaker 6: early to start planning for that. Think ahead, plan for it. Yeah,
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: see everybody, And if.
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: You're enjoying this podcast, hey subscribe. We'd appreciate it. Yeah,
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: and then rate or review it. I mean if you're
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: say something nice, otherwise skip it. But positive ratings or
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: stars or whatever helps us get seen.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: You know, if you have any complaints on them, to
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: James dot Patterson at gena dot com.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: Right and tell your writing friends about it. All right,
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: until next time, keep writing. I remember you cannot fail.
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: I've heard Jesse Holrich say this today, so it must
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: be true. You cannot fail if you refuse to quit. Okay,
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: see you next time.