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Rituals And the ROR: Return On Relationships with Ezra Bookman · Authentic Living

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  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Everyone, it's, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Thanks for coming in again this week for authentic living with Roxanne.
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  Today, I have a specially young man, that, we have privileged to spend, some time in a
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  speaker's Bureau based out in New York City where he lives.
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  So, Ezra, thanks for coming in today to kind of chat with us about, your your subject
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  expertise, which is rituals.
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  Thanks so much for having me.
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  It's it's an honor to be here, and it's an honor to still be considered a young man.
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  Well, you look very young.
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  It's all the rituals that I do.
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  They keep me
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  I heard today there, Ezra.
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  To turn back at the, clock at the hands of time.
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  So tell tell everybody a little bit about kind of what you do because I think a ritualist is
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  something, and I don't know if I'm using the right title is something, that I've not heard
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  much about.
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  Other than I know a lot about rituals, as a psychotherapist, but, tell me a little bit
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  about the title and kind of your path to kinda getting to the point where your keynote speak
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  train and and coach about, rituals.
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  Sure.
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  Yeah.
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  So ritualist is the name of my creative studio, which specializes in the design of ritual and
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  primarily secular ritual.
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  And, so I consider myself a professional ritual designer, which is admittedly a a fairly rare
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  title and job in the world.
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  But the truth of the matter is I'm really trying to bring into the world, awareness that,
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  you know, rituals are everywhere in our lives, and they have been for all of human history.
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  And they're we are constantly creating new ones.
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  And the only question and and living into old ones, and the only question is, you know,
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  whether or not they are good and effective and bringing the mentality of an artist, of a
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  designer, of a coach into that space to really level up the design of rituals and make sure
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  that they're as effective as they as they can be.
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  Okay.
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  So tell me I'm curious like what's what got you involved in this kind of work?
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  Did you go to school?
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  Is there a ritual school that should go to?
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  What what, kind of got you on the path?
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  I mean, and I think there's really a lot of significance to rituals and, you know, We
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  probably don't realize the society how much we have them kind of, embedded in a lot of things
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  that we do, but tell me a little bit about how you kind of found yourself kinda in this.
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  I'm gonna think I'm gonna say a thin edge of a wedge in reference to a a niche market.
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  Sure.
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  Yeah, you know, there there isn't a visual design school yet.
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  Hopefully, there will be, pretty soon if my work continues to be successful.
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  You know, it's it's incredible to me that even in, you know, theological seminaries, they,
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  they sometimes don't even have classes on on ritual design.
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  So even in the spaces that we expect there to be, this is a subject that really gets, led you
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  know, left off the table.
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  My background is originally in theater.
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  I went to, SMU in Dallas.
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  I got a a degree in in really theater studies and performance art and focusing a lot on the
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  intersection of arts and spirituality.
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  And looking at all of our artistic practices as having their roots as ritual and spiritual
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  practices, whether it's, you know, dance or, storytelling, mask, and customing, you know,
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  all of these things had their roots originally as rituals and looking to see if we could
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  reignite those, artistic practices to be spiritually transformative, both for the
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  performer and for the audience.
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  And that sent me off on a whole circuitous path that I eventually would, became the artistic
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  director at this experimental god everybody friendly pop up Jewish community in New York
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  called Labsual, where I was just constantly designing new rituals from scratch all the time
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  trying to reimagine ancient traditions for a modern world and and there I got to really
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  sharpen my understanding of the design, like, the intricacies of of really a question that
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  continues to to inspire my work, which is why are some rituals better than others?
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  Right?
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  Why are sat why do some transform our lives and some are like rote repetitious, boring, you
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  know, eyes bleeding, can't wait to get out of What are the experiential conditions around
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  that?
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  And I sharpened my understanding.
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  I learned from some incredible teachers and, eventually left to start ritualist.
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  So let's let's let's even back up before we get into it because the assumption is that a lot of
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  people understand how we define a ritual.
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  So let's go really, really basic.
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  And for in your own words, tell me what a ritual is and maybe give me some basic examples
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  maybe Danny Day rituals or even rituals are around us that we may not even stop to realize,
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  wow, that's a ritual.
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  Sure.
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  Yeah.
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  My my colleague, Charles Vogel says, you know, you know, it's a ritual.
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  If you take it away, and the moment feels less important.
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  I really like the simplicity of that, that rituals are these tools that we have for
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  elevating the importance for impact or meaning of life and the things that we do.
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  I can get really geeky, to be honest, about rituals, the definitions I collect, ritual
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  definitions is like a little hobby.
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  And in some ways, they're all right.
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  You know, that we can we can get really intricate into that, into that definition.
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  But in the end, I I I would just say, look at the things in your life that, deepen meaning
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  that elevate something as as really impactful or important or special.
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  And, chances are you're you're looking at a ritual you know, one of the examples that I
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  love to give is the cancer free golden bell that is often used in children's hospitals.
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  And I I have this lovely video.
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  Maybe we'll include it in the show notes or something of this individual, Matt.
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  He's nineteen years old.
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  He spent most of high school in, cancer treatment for leukemia.
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  And they have this video of him, you know, coming around the the the hallway.
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  And there's this, you know, white sheet of paper that 2 nurses are holding up and he busts
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  through the the piece of paper and and you start following down the hall and you see the
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  hall was lined, all of his friends and family, and they've got noisemakers and bells, and
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  they're clapping and cheering, and he walks down to the end of the hallway.
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  And there's this golden bell, and he rings it, you know, with all of the love and energy in
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  his heart, and he walks back through this, you know, channel of of love that surrounds him and
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  he falls into his parents' and they hug him and he's crying and they're crying.
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  And usually I'm crying because I'm washing the video.
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  And, and in interviews afterwards, they, you know, says that this is the most important this
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  is the most important day of his life.
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  And I think it's worth reflecting on, you know, what does this sheet of paper and a golden bell
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  that ultimately are functionally useless.
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  I read they they they don't help him heal.
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  They're they're not the the, the, you know, the incredible lifesaving drugs that he received.
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  And yet that day, that moment is so significant and important.
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  So what did those symbolic actions and symbolic objects do that all that other stuff that he
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  received over the last 3 years can't.
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  And, and and that's why I love ritual because they're so powerful and and they're all around
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  us.
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  Absolutely.
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  And, you know, they are inherently kind of in a lot of things that we do.
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  Like, we think of graduations.
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  Right?
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  Like, I mean, front from kindergarten kind of or, you know, we start little children
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  understanding them, you know, because it becomes kind of thing that, you know, be
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  expected, you know, and to miss one of those now.
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  They're just the thought of that.
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  Like, I I have a twenty one year old son and you know, every time he, you know, graduated
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  with something, it's a big deal.
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  Right?
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  It's like, you know, worked hard Like you said, that golden bell I've never heard of.
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  So that's actually that's fascinating.
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  I had a chip at a chill go down my spine when you're talking about it because it just sounds
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  so Oh, lovely.
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  Like, like, what, almost like a cocoon space for him.
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  And, you know, every people, like, everybody that's loved him, but then to really go through
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  that space and walk down that hall.
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  It's almost like, you know, my sense of what you're saying, it's almost like you could It's
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  like osmosis.
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  You're gonna feel like a deep, deep level of love from everybody that's maybe seen him
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  through that his treatment, and then ultimately kind of going to his parents.
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  Like, what what a what a lovely, lovely kind of space to be in.
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  You know, so it's it's so when we think about so you said in Fanta, which I'd never thought
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  this because I'm not a, you know, I don't have any background at all, in in arts that way.
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  Obviously, we you and I keynote, that's a different kind of I'm gonna say it's a
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  different because I've never done any actual, kind of artistic development that way other
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  than for business and speaking, but what is it about arts and rituals that Maybe the average
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  person needs to understand.
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  Yeah, it's a great question.
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  I mean, are you thinking about, like, what about the intersection of arts and ritual do
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  people need to understand?
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  Or
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  because I'm thinking, you know, you know, when I'm before I go on stage, I I, you know, I I
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  asked the energy to give me a good space to to be able to clear my past what, you know, what
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  is in my heart, get shared with the audience and to make it so that we connected profound
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  level.
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  And I I'm very and I all thank, you know, the energy of the universe for allowing me to be in
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  the space that I'm at, and then I go on stage.
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  So, tell me about that intersectionality between the arts and rituals because I'm,
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  again, curiosity for me And I'm I'm thinking if I'm potentially curious, potentially people
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  listening might be as well.
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  Yeah.
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  Sure.
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  I think it's it's fascinating the way that it's really only in modern history that these two
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  practices got separated out, and that there was this notion that there was, you know, are as
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  separate from ritual.
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  I think for me, it's an ongoing question I think a lot about beauty making in the world
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  and, the ways in which, you know, creating something as beautiful is often functionally
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  useless.
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  And that, you know, going back to that, that same example, or or even a graduation ceremony,
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  right?
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  Like, functionally, I've graduated whether I go to that ceremony or not.
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  And so what's happening in those spaces, that that we crave and love and and yearn for so
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  much.
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  And and, you know, to your point that we saw in the pandemic, a lot of people thought
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  graduation was boring.
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  They, you know, they could they they were, you know, rolled their eyes during it.
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  They were on their phones, you know, and then all of a sudden it got taken away from them,
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  and they realized that this, like, massive hole was missing in their lives.
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  So I think that the the interesting question here is around, symbolism and rituals
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  containing some kind of symbolic action, which, you know, Christine Legari talks about this as
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  causally opaque or directly lacking some sort of instrumental purpose.
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  So if I work out in the morning, that's serving the exact purpose you know, if I go for a run,
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  it's doing that.
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  I'm going for a run.
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  It's, you know, it's it's it's the exercise that I need in my life.
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  But if I, like, similar to your ritual that you just described, if I, stopped after my run and
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  put my hands on my body and looked in the mirror and took a few breaths and filled myself
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  up with gratitude for having a body.
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  And I and I get to and what a privilege that is.
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  And then I smile at myself rather than, you know, when we, like, finished a run and we're
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  like, oh, I wish I did more.
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  I wish I could have done this.
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  My body suck.
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  But if we just lifted ourselves up with some gratitude, now we've we've interwoven some
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  ritual into that, routine or that habit.
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  And so that ritual looking at the mirror doesn't help me run any faster, but it it works
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  on my psychology.
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  It works on my emotions.
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  It works on these invisible spaces that that ritual allows to be visible and tangible.
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  And I think art is similar in that way.
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  It can take abstract invisible concepts it can play in that realm of emotional experience.
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  It often brings people together into collective space to have collective experiences around you
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  know, a singular concept and and ritual does the same for us.
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  Right.
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  Right.
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  So let's talk a little bit about when you're coaching 1 to 1.
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  You know, we, of course, in in a lot of, you know, business books are out there about
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  rituals, right?
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  What when you work with someone?
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  Is this part of the work that you do with people, or is it that people come to you just
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  to focus on rituals to enhance, say, a particular area of their life.
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  Yeah.
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  A a lot of, you know, all the above sometimes people come with a, like, an acute need that
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  there's, and it's often around change or transition.
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  I'm I'm exiting a job.
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  I'm starting a new job.
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  I just, you know, my boss got fired and I'm taking over and there's a lot of instability
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  and there's been layoffs.
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  You know, so it's often in these moments change transition, org change as well, instability,
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  anxiety, loss, that they're coming for an acute need of a, can you help us transition through
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  this change through ritual?
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  You know, changes happen to us transitions are the conscious psychological, you know,
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  decisions that we,
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  that
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  we make to come to terms with change and rituals are the ways in which we can embody
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  physicians and bring them out into shared experience.
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  So
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  Repeat that again because I I love that because I don't think I've ever could it enunciated
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  that way.
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  So we're going through a flux or a change.
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  Transitions are what we do and rituals are the, I would use the word technique that may be
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  wrong, that gets created to help us through that those transitions.
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  So I would amend that a little bit.
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  What I what I like to say, and this is based on some some research and psychology that changes,
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  our external, they happen to us where they're they're out of our control.
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  Right?
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  The, for example, you know, the, the CEO is stepping down.
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  It's just happening to us.
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  We don't really have a choice in the matter.
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  Transitions.
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  It's an inner process.
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  It's a psychological process.
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  It's a thought process and sometimes an emotional process, often happening in the
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  background, but but at its best, it's happening very consciously where we're making conscious,
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  intentional choices, and thought processes to come to terms with what does this change mean
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  to us?
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  How are we interpreting it?
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  How are we how are we metabolizing it into our lives?
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  How are we coming to understand it?
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  And then rituals are these outward actions that bring those inner psychological transition
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  thoughts into lived experience, into an embodied experience, and often with others.
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  So for a a great example in the in the world of business is Zipcar, maybe a decade ago or so
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  was going through, this major org change where they were shifting away from deaths top towards
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  mobile.
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  And it was a it was in the early days where that this was seen as potentially, fraud.
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  You know, this is not a, a guaranteed business decision.
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  Some people are gonna get laid off.
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  There was gonna be, you know, moves in the org.
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  A lot of uncertainty 70.
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  And they held this ritual where they brought everyone together into their main space, and
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  they had a couple of desktop computers.
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  And they took turns in this ceremony of literally smashing the old ways, smashing those
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  computers and giving this, like, cathartic release to the to the company.
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  And they had a whole party around So to take this moment of anxiety about the unknown and
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  inject some hope, because that is also can be the unknown, can be hope and all that loss of
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  the old ways can also be liberation.
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  So they've made a a more complete circle of what that change could be, and it gave
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  employees an opportunity to express how they were feeling, authentically rather than just
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  suppress it and, and keep it to themselves.
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  And so that was the ritual.
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  That was the that was the ritual.
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  Fashing so that they could, make sense with a physical act based on something that internally
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  they're they're going through, you know, which is to go from kind of a, you know, a desktop to
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  to mobile.
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  Now, let's I'm curious again about rituals when sometimes some changes are known.
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  And others are not within companies.
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  Does it make a difference when you're tailoring or working through a transition if it's a
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  merger and acquisition, let's say for instance, Ezra, like, that's one thing.
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  Right?
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  But let's say, It's something like, it's a positive change, for instance, versus kind of
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  being taken over are there different ways that you kind of approach, those kind of ritualistic
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  development of things to to work with people in in those different scenarios?
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  Sure.
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  I think the approach is really similar.
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  Yeah, there's all kinds of positive changes as well onboarding a new employee, right, is a
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  great or if you're a coach onboarding a new client, what's that first session like?
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  How do you bring them in?
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  Is it just an email, welcome, and here's the PDF, and here's my Zoom link?
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  Or is there something that you do to slow down to zoom in on on what's really happening and
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  possibly zoom out and connect to something larger bigger than themselves.
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  So that's what ritual provides.
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  It provides that opportunity to to, embody, and and connect to a purpose because we are so on
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  autopilot all the time.
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  We're moving so quickly through life the the whole sort of a world and economy is structured
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  to just keep us distracted.
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  And rituals are these you know, I would say interventions or interruptions that help us
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  slow down and become conscious to what we're doing.
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  Right?
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  Like, when I'm starting a new client relationship, and a new coaching relationship,
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  that's significant.
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  It it's intimate.
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  It's vulnerable.
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  That's where I'm going with my clients.
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  There's exchange.
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  There's value.
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  There's money.
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  They're taking risk.
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  All that is there.
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  It's under the surface.
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  Are we going to make it visible?
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  Are we going to express it, or is it just going to, sort of fall into the background?
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  And by the way, continue to affect us.
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  Right?
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  Like, it's it it's there.
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  It's in the subconscious.
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  It's in the, you know, it's it's in our it's in the are collective unconscious.
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  It's right there.
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  But it's just unexpressed.
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  So, yeah, so I I deal as well with the positive kinds of rituals as well that the ones that
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  we're looking forward to.
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  The only thing I would say is that any change even the ones that we love, even the ones that
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  we're excited about come with loss and anxiety, loss from the past and anxiety about the
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  future.
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  A marriage is a great example.
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  Right, on our wedding day.
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  There is grief inside of a wedding.
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  There is loss inside of a wedding, and there is anxiety.
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  There is unknown.
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  It's not the full picture, but it's also there.
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  Mhmm.
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  And and of course, yes, that's such a very, a very positive thing, but then remember when I
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  got married, I thought it was like, oh my god.
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  Like this.
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  Right?
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  Like, you're going through it.
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  And then you're like, oh my goodness.
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  So then, which is what you're speaking to, even though it's a positive, great thing.
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  There is a loss associated from you know, going from being single to then being in in a, you
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  know, in a relationship, you know, on generally, I would say most people when they
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  take their vows, it's is forever, and that's a a scary thought as well too as you, you know,
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  starting off things.
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  So what companies what companies How might they come to you?
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  In in what context are they coming to you in crises?
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  Are they coming because their data in reference to, you know, health and wellness.
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  There's some issues Is it that, hey, Ezra, that ritual thing sounds like a good thing.
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  We'll do a lunch and learn on it.
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  Like, how is it, or is it like a part of the work based on a bigger context?
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  Are they coming to you for around change management?
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  Yeah.
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  Sure.
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  So, you know, I I I work in a lot of different contexts.
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  So sometimes it looks like, you know, one off workshop or keynote, and maybe a a small little
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  design sprint.
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  Sometimes it's a it's a more sustained kind of, like you said, lunch and learn process.
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  Sometimes it's it's deeper of longer engagements that are really looking at culture
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  change from a more systemic perspective And sometimes it's actually like design, work as
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  well.
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  I I worked with, this company called, ephemeral tattoos, that designed a, an ink that fades
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  after a year.
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  So same tattoo process, but it fades after a year, and they they came to me before they
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  launched with a question of how do we make this process a meaningful experience for our
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  customers if it's not forever.
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  How is it meaningful and impactful in their lives if it's not forever?
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  And so we looked at this concept of ephemerality of change and the the the wider
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  context in the world of how do we celebrate the fact that we are constantly changing and that
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  nothing is for and how do we embrace that, in the context of our interaction with this with
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  this company?
• 23:36
  So and that looked like, experienced design, service design, even, the design of the studio
• 23:41
  itself.
• 23:42
  So again, I I work in a lot of different contexts.
• 23:47
  I think that, I think that often the question with companies is around culture change.
• 23:54
  And the recognition that the, how we relate to one another, and this very human element of
• 24:03
  what it means to come together for a singular vision at an organization or company.
• 24:10
  And these questions of how is how can my work be meaningful?
• 24:15
  How can my work connect my my purpose in life?
• 24:18
  How do I find real belonging with my are are really terribly equipped to answer those
• 24:29
  questions, but they're being asked them by their employees.
• 24:32
  And so they come to me and and It looks a lot like culture work, and and it looks a lot like
• 24:39
  creating embodied experiences around values.
• 24:43
  You know, what does this company?
• 24:44
  What does this organization value at its most?
• 24:47
  What its highest deepest aspirations and values?
• 24:50
  And how do we create shared experiences that lift those up as important?
• 24:55
  Not just so they don't just get emailed to you, you know, as a PDF when you get onboard and
• 25:00
  then then you never talk about them again, but they're actually embodied in behaviors that are
• 25:05
  noticeable and are lifted up in moments where we can see, oh, these these matter.
• 25:11
  Right?
• 25:11
  We're taking time around them, and I can see them.
• 25:14
  I can feel them.
• 25:15
  And and now I know what it really means like to work at this organization.
• 25:20
  So not the onboarding.
• 25:21
  Here's my mission, my vision, my values based on the inception of the company, but also
• 25:26
  onboarding people from the space where you say, you know, you're bringing your uniqueness and
• 25:32
  how are you gonna embody that uniqueness, but also understanding maybe what the original
• 25:37
  intent of the company was.
• 25:39
  But so it's a shared experience than you're saying with with a new person coming in, and
• 25:45
  then kind of figuring out what value they're gonna bring and finding a a different space for
• 25:50
  them to be able to thrive in that environments then.
• 25:54
  Yeah.
• 25:54
  It can look like that for sure.
• 25:57
  It can, and it can look a lot like, you know, I mean, hopefully it's a it's a the process is so
• 26:03
  embedded into the culture and DNA of the company that, you know, by the time you're
• 26:08
  entering, by the time you're getting onboarded, right, all your interview process and what you
• 26:12
  know and what you've heard about this company, you've you've already self selected into that
• 26:16
  place because you are, you know, their culture is so discernible, and so recognizable and what
• 26:22
  they stand for and what their value are so discernible and recognizable.
• 26:27
  That's when you know that the rituals are really effective.
• 26:31
  So what you're saying is that you are working with company then in recruiting.
• 26:35
  Is that do you start as far back?
• 26:37
  Like, I mean, not primary because so you're talking about, okay, overall macro culture.
• 26:44
  Right?
• 26:44
  Like, they they, you know, this is, you know, let's say it's like you say, you know,
• 26:50
  invisible tattoos.
• 26:52
  Obviously, somebody came up with a night.
• 26:54
  Generally, tattoos are like, oh my goodness.
• 26:56
  You know, I'm gonna have a tattoo when I, you know, Hopefully, I don't regret this in 30
• 27:00
  years.
• 27:00
  That's generally the concept is which is a fascinating concept of it being gone in a year,
• 27:05
  but then there's also loss to the fact.
• 27:07
  What if I really like to start.
• 27:09
  Right?
• 27:10
  And I I then in a year, I'm second guessing that I I want to, you know, keep it, but now
• 27:16
  it's gonna be gone kind of thing.
• 27:17
  So So when, what you're saying is on the on the primary end of somebody to be onboarded, when
• 27:25
  you've worked with companies, then you're working with even in this selection and
• 27:29
  screening process, at the at the beginning, a very, very top beginning end of this employee
• 27:36
  experience all the way into, getting them accustomed to what the culture would be like by
• 27:41
  the time they get onboarded.
• 27:44
  Yeah, it can it can be.
• 27:46
  Right?
• 27:46
  It can cert it certainly can look like that as well.
• 27:49
  Mhmm.
• 27:50
  So let's see.
• 27:52
  You know, the leaders and or maybe the CEOs that are listening to it and they're thinking
• 27:58
  it sounds interesting Ezra, why might I consider rituals?
• 28:06
  Like, I'm having some difficult, well, no different than anybody else and we got the
• 28:10
  quiet quitting and, you know, I've got all that other stuff going on, and there's massive
• 28:15
  change, you know, post pandemic, all that kind of stuff.
• 28:18
  There's some morale issues.
• 28:20
  Why might I consider a concept of what you're suggesting?
• 28:25
  What would be the benefits?
• 28:28
  Yeah.
• 28:29
  Great question.
• 28:30
  Thanks for asking.
• 28:31
  Come to my website.
• 28:32
  Email me.
• 28:33
  I'd love to talk to you more about it.
• 28:34
  If you're thinking that, I'd love to talk to you more about Ezra at richlist.life.
• 28:39
  I'll make the plug right now.
• 28:42
  You know, I think read read Hoffman says it says it best.
• 28:46
  He says, you know, the right rituals in the right place will help you build your culture,
• 28:50
  coher your team, and achieve your goals.
• 28:53
  But if you are unintentional about the rituals you create, you may find that rituals spring up
• 28:57
  on their own that holds you back.
• 28:59
  So, you know, what I would say to that person than, you know, CEO, I would say, look, you
• 29:05
  already have rituals at your company because you have a culture.
• 29:08
  It might not be very well defined.
• 29:11
  But you do have a culture and you already have rituals that embody the values of that culture.
• 29:18
  They just might not be very good rituals.
• 29:22
  And that might look like they're not effective at embodying the values that you sincerely hold
• 29:26
  and that you want.
• 29:27
  You know, you you're such a human centered leader and you really want them to know that
• 29:31
  you care, but, like, your rituals aren't actually communicating that or even worse,
• 29:35
  right, is that your rituals are actually working against your values.
• 29:41
  They're communicating something totally different.
• 29:43
  And so, if you're wondering that, you know, that the that the question that you just have
• 29:50
  to ask yourself is is not do I need or do I want rituals at my workplace?
• 29:55
  It's do I want good, effective tools that work for me and my and my vision.
• 30:02
  Because, you know, what I would re what I would lovingly And and with a smile remind people is
• 30:08
  that rituals have been, used in every single culture in the world in every place throughout
• 30:14
  human history from the beginning of time.
• 30:17
  Right?
• 30:17
  We have evidence of rituals from our earliest ancestors.
• 30:21
  At the at the beginning of the hunt.
• 30:23
  Right?
• 30:24
  And so for something that powerful, and that core to human consciousness and behavior, how
• 30:34
  how could you possibly leave it out of the conversation?
• 30:38
  This was such a great interview that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series.
• 30:42
  Be sure to tune in next week for part 2.
• 30:45
  So you don't miss out on the amazing content.
• 30:48
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 30:54
  healthy change.
• 30:55
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit roxanne
• 31:02
  Durhaj.com/blueprint.
• 31:05
  We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.