Latest / Rusty's Garage / Dick Bennetts - Part 1

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Dick Bennetts - Part 1 · Rusty's Garage

• 0:02
  A listener production.
• 0:14
  I'm automotive commentator and journalist Greg Rust and this is Rusty's Garage.
• 0:27
  For this episode, I'm at Highlands Motorsport Park in Cromwell, about 40 minutes drive from Queenstown on New Zealand's beautiful South Island.
• 0:36
  It's one of the tracks owned by Tony Quinn, who you can find in our library.
• 0:40
  And it is a work of art.
• 0:43
  not plugging the episode there, I mean the race venue, you could almost be at any of the great tracks in Europe.
• 0:49
  Such is the beauty of the central Otago setting here.
• 0:53
  TQ and his team have won the rights to stage the 68th New Zealand Grand Prix here, one of the few races in the world to have a GP title, even though it's not part of the F1 World Championship.
• 1:05
  Some great names have won the race over the years.
• 1:09
  Bruce McLaren, Sir Jackie Stewart, Sir Jack Brabham, Craig Baird, Paul Radisic, and in the modern era, Liam Lawson and Shane Van Gisbergen.
• 1:18
  Typically, the race attracts lots of names from New Zealand, Australia and beyond.
• 1:23
  Among the interested onlookers this year is Dick Bennett, who grew up only a few hours' drive from here to...
• 1:30
  But he's made quite a name for himself as a team owner and engineer in the UK, in Formula 3 especially, and for more than 20 years now in the British Touring Car Championship.
• 1:41
  In that arms race period of super touring, you may remember that he ran former F1 world champion and IndyCar title winner Nigel Mansell in a Ford Mondeo.
• 1:51
  Now, there are so many names, so apologies if I don't get to all of them that he has worked with.
• 1:57
  I didn't get to Tom Oliphant, for example, who now races in TCR in Australia.
• 2:02
  I basically just chatted with Dickie, and there's some ripper memories in here of...
• 2:07
  people like a young Ayrton Senna, his battles with Martin Brundle, the visa challenge for Micah Hackinen who was incredibly fast and much much more.
• 2:17
  Plus the BMWs, his highly respected West Surrey Racing Organisation build and now run in the BTCC and what that series is like.
• 2:27
  We'll also talk about what the future may hold for him too.
• 2:31
  It is great to have him back in our part of the world.
• 2:34
  As you'll hear, the summer break has still had its calls and emails back to base in the UK as he prepares for the season ahead.
• 2:42
  I hope you enjoyed the discussion.
• 2:45
  Welcome.
• 2:46
  You've actually been down under for, I guess, the first time since the pandemic and you've been here for the longest ever since you left this country, haven't you?
• 2:56
  Yes, yeah.
• 2:56
  Normally we come home for four weeks.
• 3:00
  The last time we were here was four years ago.
• 3:02
  This time we're actually six weeks and two days, so it's the longest ever holiday we've been on.
• 3:08
  But, you know, we love coming back to New Zealand.
• 3:10
  We're at Highlands and you've been genuinely impressed by this place, haven't you?
• 3:15
  Oh, very impressed.
• 3:17
  When I was young, I earned my first money to buy my first car by picking fruit in my uncle's orchard in Roxburgh.
• 3:23
  So I've always had an affiliation with Central, but now with Highlands here, it's just, and everyone I meet say you must, and we actually had a friend from the UK here.
• 3:33
  I said, you must go to Highlands on your way through from Cromwell to Wanaka.
• 3:36
  And they come and spent two hours here and said, wow, what a facility.
• 3:40
  And he used to work for BMWK, so he's seen a lot of racetracks.
• 3:44
  So we are literally, if I've got the dots joined right here, we're only a couple of hours from where you grew up, really, aren't we?
• 3:51
  Am I right in saying that you grew up around Dunedin on the South Island here?
• 3:53
  Born and bred in Dunedin, but spent all of my early years with my mum and dad.
• 3:58
  My dad was a keen fisherman.
• 3:59
  We used to go camping at Albert Town, Wanaka.
• 4:03
  Then when we got old enough, just chatting to my mates here today, we used from probably 17 till I was 21, we used to go to Glendoo Bay, camping, water skiing, testing all the bears out.
• 4:19
  So no, fantastic.
• 4:21
  early days of my life.
• 4:22
  And the connection to motor racing comes about how were you always fascinated with things from an engineering perspective, engines and so on, and when did the kind of first car race capture you or captivate you?
• 4:36
  Actually, I wanted to be an architect, but I was a bit lazy at school.
• 4:41
  I used to love drawing, so my parents didn't have a lot of money, so I couldn't pursue it.
• 4:46
  So my second choice was engineering, so I got a job underneath an
• 4:51
  And that got me involved with engines.
• 4:54
  I loved high performance engines.
• 4:57
  Then we started playing with cars.
• 4:58
  And we actually, we laughed about it earlier.
• 5:02
  We set up a little Ataga sports car club.
• 5:04
  We had a Piranha race team.
• 5:07
  I had a 100 E4, my mate had a 105 E Anglia, one had a Humber 80, one had a Mini Cooper.
• 5:14
  So that was our little piranha race team.
• 5:16
  And, yeah, we used to do hill climbs and sprint meetings.
• 5:19
  So I've loved motorsport from a very young age.
• 5:24
  Was there a crossover point here where you figured that your talents, I mean, clearly you enjoyed the fun, the social aspect, the actual competition, driving and so on.
• 5:32
  But was there a point where you thought you were going to be
• 5:36
  able to pursue something better served by going down the preparation and engineering path?
• 5:42
  That was a big decision I took and I was quite happy in Dunedin, my mates have always had some fun, but I thought I had this inkling and I wanted to go a bit further.
• 5:53
  So it was Alan Dick that phoned me with his magazine Motor Man, I think it was, Motor Action, way back in 69.
• 6:05
  He said, there's a job coming up in Auckland, Performance Development.
• 6:08
  He said, it just sounds like me.
• 6:11
  So I flew up there, did an interview, flew back.
• 6:14
  They rang me two weeks later, flew back up again, and I got the job.
• 6:17
  So it was a bit hard at the time to leave all my mates at the time.
• 6:23
  But I wanted to pursue my career, so I had a job there.
• 6:27
  I really enjoyed it there.
• 6:29
  but then Dennis Marwood took me to the Auckland Car Club one night to get me to meet people.
• 6:35
  I was boarding out in Papakura.
• 6:37
  I didn't have a flat or anything.
• 6:39
  And then Dennis introduced me to David Oxton, and then David and I became friends.
• 6:48
  And, of course, when he won the Formula 4 Championship, his prize was a free trip to the UK.
• 6:54
  And David said, do you want to come and help me?
• 6:56
  I said, oh, I'd love to, but I've...
• 6:58
  I've only been at Portland Development a couple of years.
• 7:00
  So I spoke to Ray and Dennis and I said, you know, I'll be away two years and I'll be back.
• 7:05
  And the rest is history.
• 7:08
  I've now been away 51 years.
• 7:11
  Before we get to the whole England chapter, just focus on David for a little moment because people listening in Australia and those that follow the podcast here in New Zealand will...
• 7:21
  remember him very fondly.
• 7:23
  I mean, incredibly talented in open wheels and ran in touring cars and things as well, didn't he?
• 7:29
  Yep.
• 7:30
  Engineering-wise, he was very good with the car.
• 7:33
  Driving-wise, used his head.
• 7:36
  Formula Ford champion, 5000 champion.
• 7:39
  Touring cars with Peter Brock and those sort of legends of the day.
• 7:45
  And, yeah, he was a good or still is a good... We have some...
• 7:48
  12,000 miles away, there's four or five of us on a WhatsApp link, and we put the world to rights on motorsport, whether it's in New Zealand, in the UK, worldwide, Formula One, NASCAR, you know, we talk about it with David.
• 8:02
  And I actually stayed with him up in Auckland when we arrived, and then down at his holiday home in Maturangi.
• 8:09
  And again, we're up till midnight talking motorsport.
• 8:12
  The girls are gone to bed, and no, he's still a great friend.
• 8:16
  I must get him on the podcast and have a chat at some stage.
• 8:20
  There is a story that if I've... Talking about his Ralt RT4, he must get it out the mothballs and use it.
• 8:26
  Yeah.
• 8:27
  Is that a project in the works kind of thing?
• 8:29
  It's been sitting in his garage down at Hampton Downs for years and years and years.
• 8:35
  It's a championship winning car.
• 8:36
  Okay.
• 8:38
  We'll put a bit of pressure on him, twist his arm a little bit.
• 8:40
  Can we come to the early phase of you being in the UK?
• 8:45
  The Motorsport Magazine guys did a fantastic chat with you, which people can find.
• 8:50
  And I think you talked to them about perhaps...
• 8:53
  being on top of maybe a coffee cart or something or other and were you watching the British Grand Prix or something and it was it was almost a transformative moment you were there you know with David I think pursuing Formula Ford stuff and so on but that was like this is me I am meant to be here more or less aren't you?
• 9:10
  You've got a very good memory um we arrived in the UK July 72 David and I
• 9:18
  We went over early to prepare for the World Cup in October at Brands.
• 9:22
  And we stayed in a tiny little masonette in Egham.
• 9:25
  And the guys who was there was Jim Murdoch and another English guy, Howard Moore.
• 9:32
  So we bunked up in there.
• 9:33
  Then David's other friend, John Farnsworth, arrived.
• 9:36
  So a little team of Kiwis.
• 9:38
  But we said to Jim, we're going to go to the Grand Prix the following weekend.
• 9:43
  We've only been in the country a week.
• 9:44
  British Grand Prix at Brands.
• 9:45
  They said, oh, you'll never get in.
• 9:46
  You'll never get there.
• 9:47
  The traffic.
• 9:49
  We'd bought an old Hillman Minx, ex-Scotland Yard.
• 9:53
  So off we set on Saturday morning, or Sunday morning it was, all the back roads down to Brands Hatch.
• 9:59
  And we got there, got into there, and we finished up on top of a little, not a pie cart, but a little shop selling souvenirs and ice creams and all that sort of stuff.
• 10:10
  So we sat up there and watched my first ever Grand Prix live.
• 10:13
  Amazing.
• 10:13
  Can you remember some of the people that day and who won and so on?
• 10:17
  No, no.
• 10:18
  I mean, we're talking, what are we talking, 72 there, so some of the drivers of the era.
• 10:23
  Oh, it's just the cars then and the driving, the sound of the cars, different to the modern-day world now.
• 10:30
  So, no, that was, you know, that sort of got me hooked.
• 10:34
  But one of the other reasons I went there was when I was at school, we had French lessons and I... You weren't much trop at this, were you?
• 10:42
  What do you want to learn French for?
• 10:44
  We live in New Zealand, 12,000 miles away.
• 10:46
  But I'd read about people like Cosworth, people like Alan Mann racing
• 10:51
  And then to be in England and suddenly like you're there where all this happens, you know, motorsport of the world.
• 10:56
  Yeah, amazing.
• 10:57
  So this is early days, probably doing it tough financially and so on.
• 11:01
  Stitch it together for me.
• 11:03
  I mean, you've stayed there as you've just talked about for 50 odd years.
• 11:06
  What was the hard graft like early on and did you meet good people that helped open some doors?
• 11:11
  What transpired from there?
• 11:13
  Yeah, I mean, my first job I got was building race engines.
• 11:19
  David and I were there for six months and David come back to run his father's business, Oxford Motors.
• 11:25
  I stayed on, took me four or five months to find a job that I wanted to do.
• 11:31
  And it was only, I lived in Windsor then and it was down in Twickenham Racing Services Engines and
• 11:38
  Ken Britton and Spike Winter.
• 11:41
  And I loved it, small little race engine shop, but they were building Formula 2 engines or rebuilding Cosworth engines.
• 11:48
  We were doing Formula Atlantic engines when it was Atlantic in the UK.
• 11:54
  We actually built a, is it 2.8 litre Cosworth V6 engine.
• 12:02
  So little engine shop dyno, John Miles used to run the dyno.
• 12:06
  He taught me how to use the dyno.
• 12:08
  So I really enjoyed it, but after two years, I wanted to move more to chassis work.
• 12:15
  So a mate of mine got me a job at Works March F2 team.
• 12:19
  So I was in the deep end, but started to enjoy it, and that's what kicked me off.
• 12:24
  Then Fred Opet approached me, then I moved to... March Works team was great, but too much top-heavy on management, not enough.
• 12:35
  hard workers on the team.
• 12:37
  So I sat with Robin Hurd and said to him one Saturday, I said, I'm enjoying it, but I'm not enjoying it.
• 12:45
  And I said, you know, I told him straight, you're a bit top heavy on metal management people instead of people.
• 12:51
  being good engineers or mechanics.
• 12:54
  And of course, Max Mosley was the other director then.
• 12:57
  And I got on great with them.
• 12:59
  So I said, you know, I'd like to stay, but I'm not.
• 13:02
  So Fred Opet had chased me, had met me at an F2 race.
• 13:08
  So I jumped ship and went to Fred and then after two and a half, three years with Fred, we brought Brian Redman out here, first trip home, my way to get home for a holiday.
• 13:16
  It was a Chevron B29, BMW powered.
• 13:23
  Then we switched to the Formula Atlantic cars with Rosberg and Kozorovitski.
• 13:29
  Then the following year, Keké and Bobby Rahul.
• 13:33
  That was my trip home, five weeks hard graft.
• 13:37
  And then I switched then to Ron Dennis, Project 4.
• 13:41
  You are a rattle.
• 13:42
  I knew this conversation was going to go this way with you because there are some amazing names that you have interconnected with, worked closely with, helped shape along the way.
• 13:51
  Can we just rewind just fractionally there?
• 13:54
  Firstly, Max Mosley.
• 13:56
  I mean, he would go on to hold a very significant position in world motorsport and so on.
• 14:02
  What was he like back then?
• 14:03
  I mean, he actually has in his – he's gone now, but in his history –
• 14:08
  He had a period as a driver as well, didn't he?
• 14:10
  Yes, yeah.
• 14:11
  I got on great with both Robin and Max, being a Kiwi, like spades a spade, and just told him as I felt things were from my perspective.
• 14:23
  But I met up with him years and years later.
• 14:25
  He was on the FIA then, and he come down to, we were doing world touring cars at Brands,
• 14:32
  And he come along to our garage and walked in, and he remembered my name, hello Dick, good to see you again, and all my other teammates there, they go,
• 14:39
  How do you know him?
• 14:41
  That's Max Mosley.
• 14:42
  I said, yes, I know.
• 14:44
  So, yeah, unfortunately, he's passed on now.
• 14:47
  But, yeah, no, he was very, both him and Robin, very sharp businessmen.
• 14:53
  And I'm more of a passion for motorsport than a businessman side, but, you know, still going strong and looking to retire in one of these days.
• 15:05
  Not yet at the moment, by the sounds of things.
• 15:07
  I know how busy you are.
• 15:09
  You have touched on something there that I think is very... A common theme sometimes for both Aussies and Kiwis, and that is the...
• 15:19
  I mean, particularly Kiwis, I find, you have this... You love that hands-on approach.
• 15:26
  The want to find a solution in things.
• 15:30
  I'm not surprised that that March scenario perhaps didn't necessarily suit your way of thinking or working.
• 15:37
  Yeah, you have to be versatile, but, you know, okay, I learned a lot working Fred Opet days, because when Fred learned I could build engines, he sent me to America to rebuild all his former Atlantic engines.
• 15:53
  And then Fred learned I could do this.
• 15:55
  Dick, could you do that?
• 15:56
  And then I was doing the finances, looking after.
• 15:58
  Because in those days, going around F2 in Europe, you have French francs, German marks, everything, pounds, sterling.
• 16:07
  And I used to keep all the cash and look after all that, pay this.
• 16:12
  Fred said, gee, Dick, you're doing a great job.
• 16:14
  I said, Fred, yeah, but I'm engineering a car, mechanic in a car.
• 16:18
  drive the transporter, do the finance, and I build engines.
• 16:23
  So Fred was a great guy, but it's back to the versatility, and it's harder to find that these days, but it's probably more the passion you wanted to do it.
• 16:38
  We used to work stupid hours.
• 16:40
  Sometimes if you have to work all night, you had to do it.
• 16:43
  You just shrug your shoulders and get on with it.
• 16:46
  You mentioned Ron Dennis.
• 16:48
  What was he like to work with?
• 16:51
  I actually met up with Ron last November at the McLaren 60th do, and probably had five to 10 minutes talking to him.
• 16:59
  Okay.
• 17:00
  He's knighted now too, I think.
• 17:01
  Yes, yeah.
• 17:02
  No, I never had a problem with Ron.
• 17:04
  I got on good with him to the points, the guys, oh, you're his mate.
• 17:08
  I said, I'm not his mate, but don't.
• 17:11
  stand in the workshop complaining about him because he's busy negotiating to buy McLarens.
• 17:16
  He's a busy man.
• 17:18
  So I said, if it's a problem, and they always said, Dick, you go and talk to him about it.
• 17:22
  So I used to go and knock on his door, give me five minutes, like, right, we need this, we need that, and just straight to the point, get on with it.
• 17:28
  He'd come down, yep, do that, yep, I agree, away you go again.
• 17:32
  So, no, he was great.
• 17:37
  First year was Formula 2, March, BMW engines, Eddie Cheever, Ingo Hoffman.
• 17:45
  But then Ron, unbeknown to us, he had done a deal with BMW to assemble all the BMW M1 Pro cars.
• 17:53
  So we assembled 24 of those.
• 17:57
  absolutely knackered because we're working 16-hour days because Ron must have this finished, must have that one done, must get that one painted, must get that one out to that customer.
• 18:07
  And then Ron said, right, one more.
• 18:09
  I said, oh, no, we've had enough.
• 18:11
  And there's two Kiwi mates working.
• 18:14
  There was four of us doing it, one English guy.
• 18:18
  So Kev Weston was, Kev and I got on great.
• 18:21
  So we finished up building this last car and we're,
• 18:25
  We didn't want to do it, but Ron said it was top-line driving.
• 18:28
  When we eventually got to Silverstone, a helicopter comes in and now hops Nicky Lauder.
• 18:33
  So Ron said, this is why we've got the extra car.
• 18:36
  We're running it ourselves.
• 18:37
  Oh, okay then.
• 18:40
  So we went on to win the championship.
• 18:42
  You say that with these, now I want to ask about Nicky, now I want to ask about Bobby Rahul, now I want to ask about...
• 18:49
  Kekke Rosberg.
• 18:50
  That was 79, and then we started 80 again with the Procar BMW Series, and we had Hans Stuck.
• 18:58
  But it only lasted, I think, from memory, three or four meetings, and then I don't know what happened.
• 19:03
  The money ran out or whatever.
• 19:05
  So, but having worked with Nicky and Hans, we won the Monaco Grand Prix support race both years, but chalk and cheese drivers.
• 19:17
  In what way?
• 19:18
  Nicky was very precise, very... Hans was so laid back and having a laugh, but when he got in the race car, he was very quick.
• 19:26
  And I got on great with Hans.
• 19:29
  Nicky was...
• 19:30
  harder to get through to um but he was you know Nicky Lauder so but Stuckey was a great laugh but I'll never forget winning those races each year with chalk and cheese driving styles and feedback um but that didn't last for some reason so then we switched to uh Ron asked me to help upstairs because John Barnard was doing the first ever carbon F1 tub
• 19:56
  So I worked upstairs with them, helping them for about two or three months, but wasn't really enjoying it.
• 20:02
  So then Ryan said, right, I want you to take over the F3 team.
• 20:05
  I said, I've never done F3.
• 20:06
  He said, well, you've done F2.
• 20:07
  You've done Formula Atlantic.
• 20:08
  You know what you're doing.
• 20:10
  So then we took over the F3 team, and we struggled for a while because they had a march, 793.
• 20:20
  They'd won it in 79 with Chico Sarah, I think.
• 20:26
  Yeah.
• 20:27
  So the 80 car had a problem.
• 20:29
  So I said to Ron, this Relt car with this Kiwi guy, Rob Wilson, doesn't do bad.
• 20:39
  Looks like they've got no money, but on occasions that car flies.
• 20:42
  So we jumped in Ron's Porsche, went down to the Relt factory...
• 20:46
  The two Rons sat together in a port-a-cabin office that Ron Teranick had.
• 20:51
  I'm in the workshop watching this car being assembled, and it was bracket on, bracket on, bracket.
• 20:55
  So we nicknamed it Bracketry in Motion.
• 21:00
  You cut your fingers all the time because everything was just... Ron would cheap, fantastic car, but the way he built it, cast, aluminium, angular, 90 degrees, and you just used it through a bandsaw, so very sharp corners.
• 21:15
  Sharp.
• 21:16
  But after we learnt how it worked and we suddenly dominated, we went on to win the last four races and won the championship.
• 21:24
  We came from third to first, and it was sad in some ways because Murray Taylor had been leading the championship with Kenny Aitchison, and we came from third to win it.
• 21:36
  And MT wouldn't talk to me for about six months.
• 21:40
  We're good friends now.
• 21:41
  Yeah, so.
• 21:43
  Okay, before we get to your own amazing chapter and business, so to speak, can we tick a couple of boxes here?
• 21:52
  Ron Turanac.
• 21:53
  So he too, like Sir Jack Brabham, has very sadly left us now.
• 21:58
  the other side of the ditch from where we're recording this, held in very, very high regard for what he did in relation to the build of race cars through that period, particularly 60s and 70s.
• 22:07
  Yeah.
• 22:08
  No, Ron and I got on great.
• 22:09
  We had our ups and downs, Kiwi versus Aussies.
• 22:12
  But, you know, he knew if I complained about something, it was serious.
• 22:18
  And we, a lot of other Rev3 teams thought we were works, but trust me we were not.
• 22:26
  If we had a problem I'd go and talk to Ron about it and sometimes he'd agree, sometimes he wouldn't.
• 22:33
  On a couple of occasions, we found some built-in design problems, especially the AT5 car when they went flat bottom rolls.
• 22:45
  Ron had gone from a rocker car.
• 22:47
  I remember around the center F3 car had a front rocker.
• 22:50
  Ron then went to a push rod with a small rocker.
• 22:53
  And somewhere down the line, the geometry wasn't right.
• 22:56
  And it was frustrating because we had Ayrton's mate, Mauricio Guzman.
• 23:02
  And Mauricio was a Ford 2000 champion, so a good little peddler.
• 23:06
  And he kept saying in the car, there's something wrong with it.
• 23:09
  And we couldn't find it, couldn't find it for about three race meetings.
• 23:12
  And I was getting frustrated.
• 23:14
  So we went back to the workshop one night after a race, I think, at Silverstone.
• 23:18
  And...
• 23:19
  and we worked on the car, pulled it apart the front end.
• 23:23
  About 1.30am we found the problem by reverse engineering.
• 23:28
  So Monday morning, went down to the RELP factory, only 15 minutes from us, and I went to the store and I knew quite well.
• 23:35
  I said, can I have a pair of rockers, preferably not machined on the outer end?
• 23:39
  What do you want those for?
• 23:41
  I said, just want to have a little play.
• 23:44
  So we went away.
• 23:45
  James is his name.
• 23:47
  Come back, he said, there.
• 23:48
  I said, perfect.
• 23:49
  So we went back.
• 23:50
  We plotted out, and West Surrey Engineering was a big machine shop.
• 23:55
  Went and one of the machinist guys milled through, put two holes in.
• 23:59
  We went out testing, found the problem.
• 24:02
  So, oh, what do we do now?
• 24:04
  Of course, the phone goes.
• 24:05
  The next race meeting, Ron Taranac, another team into sport, Glen Waters.
• 24:11
  They had spotted different front rockers because they just stuck out from the body work.
• 24:16
  You could see it.
• 24:17
  And Ron said, what have you done?
• 24:19
  I said, we're just, you know, having a play, Ron.
• 24:22
  So Ron said, well, what have you done?
• 24:24
  I said, and he got in his car and drove over to us instead of me having to drive to him.
• 24:29
  What have you done that for?
• 24:30
  I said, just because we think it's better, Ron.
• 24:33
  So we went back to his office.
• 24:35
  He rang me again, and he said he didn't blame himself.
• 24:39
  He called one of his draftsmen, not a designer, a draftsman.
• 24:42
  He said, he's put the decimal place in the wrong place, and you've all got the wrong.
• 24:46
  I said, oh, I thought so, Ron.
• 24:49
  I love it.
• 24:50
  So we had sussed it.
• 24:51
  I said, right, Ron, as we've found it, I want a five-race meeting exclusive.
• 24:56
  No, no, no, no, no.
• 24:57
  You can't have that, he said.
• 24:58
  He said.
• 24:59
  because he said the Raynard's getting quicker, we need to beat it.
• 25:03
  I said, okay, Ron, but let's be fair that we've found this issue, we've fixed it, because the hole we plotted was within about a mil of what he had.
• 25:12
  I think his draft men had put the decimal place in the wrong place, so the rocker ratio was miles out.
• 25:18
  And the thing would go stagnant, the rocker, wouldn't work.
• 25:22
  So we finished up, I think from memory, a two-race exclusive that no other RELT team could have the rocker till we... Of course, we went on to win the championship.
• 25:41
  We must thank Tony Quinn for allowing us to rent his race track for this special recording.
• 25:46
  Thanks TQ.
• 25:48
  How much does Rusty owe you?
• 25:49
  Speaking of, you can catch TQ and his business insights in the garage library.
• 25:54
  They are as good as it gets.
• 25:57
  And I didn't want to go to the Gold Coast because it's the Gold Coast, you know.
• 26:01
  You go there for holiday, not for business.
• 26:02
  But anyway, it was the best thing that she ever said to me.
• 26:06
  It was the best ultimatum that she ever gave me.
• 26:10
  And the story of VIP is well documented.
• 26:13
  And, you know, basically we started with nothing.
• 26:17
  21 years later, sold it for 410 million.
• 26:21
  How many staff did you have at the end?
• 26:24
  850 or 950.
• 26:27
  But that was across the chocolate thing as well, the Dalai thing as well.
• 26:31
  But just on the pet food, it had five factories going 24 hours a day, five days a week.
• 26:37
  My dad used to say that everything you touch turns to gold.
• 26:40
  You've got the Midas touch.
• 26:42
  And, you know, not that I want to, I'm humbled by that.
• 26:45
  And I don't think that's...
• 26:47
  really accurate because there has been a couple of failures um but there's no doubt that the old saying the harder you work the more successful you become has some merit and should be given some thought hear the tales of tony in the garage library all right back to dickie
• 27:07
  Kiki Rosberg, he seems like younger fans that are listening to this chat and have perhaps been part of the Drive to Survive generation or whatever will know Nico Rosberg.
• 27:20
  His dad seems like the antithesis of him in some respects.
• 27:24
  What was he like back then when you got the chance to work with him?
• 27:29
  Great guy, hard on a car, great guy.
• 27:32
  No nonsense, just got in and ragged it basically.
• 27:34
  Yeah, yeah.
• 27:35
  No, if Keke could find a curb, he would use it, especially around Poe.
• 27:40
  Okay.
• 27:41
  And the curbs, you know, being a street circuit, and I had to say, Keke, keep off the bloody curbs because they were so steep, and the Chevron
• 27:50
  aluminium chassis was quite weak with the front suspension mounted and he kept on, we had to keep repairing the chassis.
• 27:57
  He said, we'll make it stronger.
• 27:58
  I said, we'll make it stronger, put a plate in, stiffen it up.
• 28:01
  I said, that problem will move further down the line.
• 28:05
  And we went through, I think from memory, about 12 rooms that weekend because he kept on hitting the kerb so hard it would damage the room.
• 28:14
  no doubt the raw speed of that guy and um and the racing back out here you know the two years we won the championship um it was hard work because repairing the car um one little accident somewhere we blew an engine fred sent out some engines from the states which weren't quite in the state he said they were so i had to build an engine between the
• 28:41
  penultimate round and the final round.
• 28:43
  I had to piece two old Atlantic engines together to make one.
• 28:47
  I did that at my brother work for Toyota Dunedin.
• 28:50
  So we spent four or five days in there, rebuilt an engine, rebuilt the cars before heading off to Wigram.
• 28:57
  Amazing.
• 28:57
  So I think you and I have done an interview.
• 28:59
  I don't know if I have the chassis right here, but I'm sure we've used that car in the backdrop.
• 29:04
  It still exists here.
• 29:06
  It's blue for memory, isn't it?
• 29:07
  Um, the, yes, the January 77 was the blue B34s and 78 was the red B39s, I think.
• 29:22
  Yeah.
• 29:23
  Your memory is sharp.
• 29:24
  You're raising your eyebrows there, but you've got to give yourself, you've got to give yourself more credit.
• 29:28
  Bobby Rahal, you mentioned him very briefly before.
• 29:31
  I mean, legendary in the United States and so on.
• 29:33
  What was he like?
• 29:34
  Yeah, Bobby, he was a great guy.
• 29:36
  I'd met him through in Formula Two in Europe.
• 29:41
  Really nice guy and interesting little story away from Formula Atlantic when he was in charge of Jaguar F1.
• 29:51
  F1 teams then were having a junior team F3.
• 29:54
  and Bobby was in dialogue with me to run the Jaguar Junior F3 team.
• 29:58
  Fantastic.
• 29:59
  And we were close on signing the deal.
• 30:02
  I thought this is a good opening for us to be linked into an F1 team.
• 30:05
  Yeah.
• 30:06
  I trusted Bobby.
• 30:07
  Bobby trusted me.
• 30:08
  But then it all fell over just before we signed on the dotted line.
• 30:15
  We'll get to some more drivers here.
• 30:18
  West Surrey Racing, your own, like you've worked with different people that you've identified there, different teams and so on.
• 30:23
  When did your own sort of push, your own venture become an idea for you and when did you hit the go button on it?
• 30:33
  I was probably very fortunate, lucky, fortunate, timing, whatever, but when Ron was moving to F1, end of 80 for 81, because we'd won the championship with Stefan with the F3 car, the RELT, Ron RD said to me,
• 30:53
  sell the car, get rid of it, you know, and then, you know, we'll go from there.
• 30:58
  So we had this request from this young trainee, Dr. Jonathan Palmer, and we went down to Goodwood and did a test with him.
• 31:08
  And the man who owned West Surrey Engineering, Mike Cox,
• 31:11
  He came down and Jonathan was pretty impressive.
• 31:14
  Now, here he was, a trainee doctor, whatever, 19 years, 20 years old, and he put in a pretty impressive lap time.
• 31:22
  So they bought the car.
• 31:26
  Then JP rang me up and said, Oh, we've lost half, three quarts of a second a lap round.
• 31:31
  Good, but can you help us?
• 31:33
  I said, Right, bring the car back.
• 31:35
  and they had softened the car off to make it easier to drive.
• 31:38
  And I said to them, it's a ground-effect car.
• 31:41
  You must keep it firm to stop it rolling.
• 31:44
  So I reset it up, and they asked me to go back for another test.
• 31:48
  So I went down there because we'd finished F3 with Project 4.
• 31:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:53
  And Jonathan went quicker than Stefan had ever gone, and quicker than the previous test.
• 31:57
  When you say Stefan, you mean Stefan Johansson?
• 31:59
  Hanson, sorry, yeah.
• 32:00
  He was the 1980 champion.
• 32:05
  And I then took Mike Cox to one side.
• 32:08
  I said, listen, you've wasted your money buying this car on this.
• 32:12
  You understand, get an engineer...
• 32:14
  And he turned around and said, what are you doing?
• 32:16
  I said, well, I'm actually leaving Project 4.
• 32:19
  I'm not going to McLaren's F1.
• 32:20
  I've been offered a job from Ron.
• 32:23
  So I said, I've actually got no job at the moment.
• 32:25
  But I am going home to help Dave Oxen.
• 32:28
  Because I told David I wouldn't help him if he kept his old Chevron.
• 32:33
  I said, I'll only help you if you buy the big brother of the RT3, the Relt RT4.
• 32:39
  Thinking David wouldn't do it, I get a phone call from David.
• 32:42
  I've got one.
• 32:43
  I'm in Canada.
• 32:44
  I bought a four-race old RT4, just like you told me to.
• 32:47
  You've got to come and help me.
• 32:48
  I said, oh, okay.
• 32:50
  So there's my holiday home.
• 32:52
  Five weekends like it is now, flat out, rebuilt the car, rebuilt a new engine for them, and we won the series.
• 33:00
  So it was that then I'd said to this guy, Mike Cox, that I can look at it, but I am not going to let my mate David down.
• 33:13
  So we actually, that was the opportunity I got to set up.
• 33:17
  So year 181, we went on to win the championship with Jonathan.
• 33:22
  First year in with our own team, but we entered it under West Surrey Engineering Year 1 because Mike Cox was paying most of the bills.
• 33:32
  He didn't quite understand we wanted to spend so much money that we were doing it on a shoestring.
• 33:38
  one of my mates from Formula One, Harvey Spencer, we lived together in Shepparton.
• 33:42
  He'd come along to Mechanicon, and we worked great together, and we won the championship.
• 33:47
  We did some pretty basic repair jobs on the car.
• 33:53
  We used to have cracked discs, and we'd drill holes in the end of the cracks to make them nice.
• 33:58
  Don't tell JP, or do another race.
• 34:00
  So Harvey and I worked great there.
• 34:02
  Then...
• 34:08
  what happened, it was then at the end of 81, Mike said I can't put more money, and I said well, the phone started ringing then because first year in winning the championship, we had a lot of people ringing us to do F3.
• 34:24
  So we then changed the name to WSR and set it up commercially to run as a business.
• 34:30
  So year two with Kiki Mancilla,
• 34:36
  and he had jumped the ladder, run, run.
• 34:39
  He went Formula Ford 1600 F3, whereas Ayrton Senna went Formula Ford 1600, Formula Ford 2000, Formula 3 with us.
• 34:49
  So the end of 82, we finished up runner-up in the championship with a guy who had never done any slicks and wings.
• 34:56
  So we then got a message Ayrton Senna would like to, Ayrton Senna De Silva would like to speak to us, so we met up.
• 35:04
  did a half-day test, did a race at the end of 82, and he blitzed everyone.
• 35:08
  He said, your car's fantastic.
• 35:10
  I want a race for you 83.
• 35:12
  So he shook hands.
• 35:13
  He took off to Brazil.
• 35:14
  So suddenly, you know, we had a top-line driver for, we'd finished second, first in 81, second in 82, one in 83, and this was the beginning of WSR.
• 35:28
  So it's just got bigger and,
• 35:30
  But now one of the big things now is the crew, the people who work on the team.
• 35:36
  You have to have a good bunch of guys and girls to progress now because as the team gets bigger, we now have only 12, 13 full-time, but at a race meeting we have 30 to run four touring cars.
• 35:51
  Is there a little story in, you know, because this is the formative years and I guess that there's probably juggles for you financially around certain things.
• 35:59
  You might have to sell a car to get the next one in and so on.
• 36:03
  And was there some sort of story somewhere here, I don't know if I've got the dates right, around a car that you perhaps sold to Dr. Helmut Marko?
• 36:10
  Is there something there?
• 36:11
  Yeah, yeah.
• 36:13
  That was the end of 82, the Mancilla car.
• 36:17
  Because Ayrton raced that for one race, pole position first fastest lap, and he won the race by 12, 14 seconds.
• 36:23
  He was a bit gutted that you sold it, is that right?
• 36:25
  Yeah, he loved the car.
• 36:26
  So when he arrived back in 83, here's a brand new white Rout sitting there.
• 36:30
  He said, where's the blue one?
• 36:31
  I said, we've sold it.
• 36:33
  But I like that car, it was good.
• 36:34
  I said, yeah, but this will be good as well.
• 36:36
  It's just an evolution of last year's car.
• 36:39
  Oh, but I really like that blue one.
• 36:41
  I said, we have to live through the winter, so we've sold it.
• 36:44
  Who did you sell it to?
• 36:45
  I said, we sold it to Helmut Marko.
• 36:48
  Oh.
• 36:49
  I said, Gearhard Burgers, the driver.
• 36:52
  Oh.
• 36:52
  So, no, we, in those days, we had to sell a car, only running a one-car team.
• 36:57
  You sell it to live through the winter, so you get your next year's budget.
• 37:01
  So...
• 37:02
  Yeah, no, it was a laugh because when Gerhard come to pick it up, middle of February, I think it was.
• 37:08
  He wanted to tow it back or something.
• 37:09
  Yeah, he had a van with an open deck trailer to put the car on.
• 37:14
  I said, wherever we built this car looking like new, you're not taking it back to Switzerland, Austria.
• 37:22
  So he had to say an extra day.
• 37:24
  We bought tarpaulins, car covers, bungee cords to tow around the car before we loaded it up on the trailer.
• 37:31
  Amazing.
• 37:32
  Can we talk Ayrton?
• 37:33
  I mean, for most people listening, a hero, as you and I sit here, has been gone, what are we talking, 30 years now, since 1994?
• 37:42
  We're in 2024.
• 37:46
  At that stage, you're working with someone on a meteoric rise, but with clearly an abundance of very special talent.
• 37:55
  What was he like as a human being, and what was he like as a racing driver?
• 38:00
  He was a nice guy.
• 38:01
  A lot of people thought he was quite cold, and he could be at a race meeting.
• 38:07
  We had a couple of frosty moments because he sometimes crashed when he didn't have to.
• 38:12
  He wasn't prepared at times to finish second to Martin Brundle.
• 38:16
  And I just said to him, you're chucking away points.
• 38:21
  But away from the racetrack, he was a fun guy.
• 38:24
  We used to go out to a Chinese restaurant and shepherd him and even continue to do that a couple of years after he left us and went F1.
• 38:35
  he'd ring up and say, and I finished up helping him to buy a house in 85.
• 38:41
  But we went to a couple of barbecues at a friend's house and he taught us how to make caipurimas, the Brazilian drink, him and Mauricio Guzman, and we'd have some good laughs together.
• 38:54
  But we had a race meeting, he
• 38:57
  He always appeared to be cold.
• 38:59
  He was very focused on what he was doing.
• 39:03
  Sometimes I thought a little bit too much.
• 39:05
  You're supposed to enjoy what you're doing, and okay, yes, you're professional.
• 39:10
  For that age, he was very professional.
• 39:14
  Commercially, he knew what he was doing.
• 39:17
  He had good advice from another Brazilian friend of his father's, Armando Coutinho,
• 39:24
  um and yeah they were they were very sharp commercially um but yeah he's his raw talent was there and he was an all-rounder to me because he could give you feedback on an engine how it worked response the chassis everything he was so precise um whereas i often say the
• 39:48
  and chatting to people who was the best, Senna or Hakanen.
• 39:53
  Hakanen's raw talent was unbelievable, but Mika couldn't give you the feedback Ayrton could.
• 40:00
  So you had to do a little bit of guesswork with Mika, but his pure talent would be every bit as good, if not better, than Ayrton.
• 40:07
  We'll come to him in a second, just to a couple of points to continue here on Ayrton if we can.
• 40:13
  Firstly, it wasn't uncommon for him to ring you days later after a test or a race.
• 40:17
  He'd remember something about car behaviour or car performance.
• 40:21
  I mean, the level of depth, his memory must have been exceptional, was it, of the detail he could recall.
• 40:29
  Unbelievable.
• 40:31
  A lot of drivers, when they're driving, they're focusing and concentrating so hard driving,
• 40:36
  They can't give much feedback.
• 40:38
  He could get out the car, and as you said, sometimes he'd ring me two or three days, oh, Dickie, I've thought about this and that and that.
• 40:45
  That was doing this here and that was doing that there.
• 40:47
  Of course, in those days, there was no laptop computers.
• 40:50
  There was nothing.
• 40:51
  You had to make notes of it all.
• 40:52
  He was the data guy, wasn't he?
• 40:54
  Yeah, not only a driver, he was a data engineer.
• 40:57
  So I said, hang on, Harry, I'll go and get a notepaper and make that what he's telling me.
• 41:03
  Whereas these days now, we can't even run an engine now without plugging a laptop in.
• 41:07
  Everything's electronic.
• 41:09
  And now with the current touring cars, guys, I still try and push them to give feedback, but they want to see the data first.
• 41:20
  and compared to their teammates, especially if the teammates quicker, they want to see where they're slower.
• 41:25
  But to me, they should still learn to give feedback because it's their feel, what a car is doing, how the engine reacts, you know, what we do.
• 41:37
  So those days it was seat of the pants engineering, you'd have,
• 41:43
  listen to what the driver's saying and work it out.
• 41:46
  And a classic example was 82 Mancilla, not only ever having raced a Formula Ford 1600, he had no experience with aero slicks and wings.
• 41:59
  And the first three or four races in 82, we really struggled because he kept telling me the car was oversteering, oversteering, oversteering.
• 42:06
  So of course we were changing it to cure the oversteer.
• 42:09
  I got so annoyed one day, I went and watched him out on track at Alton Park, and he had bad understeer.
• 42:15
  He had so much understeer, he'd pull the lock on till the front gripped, and then it would oversteer.
• 42:22
  There's no radio those days.
• 42:24
  Put the pit board out in, bring him in, right, hop out the car, Kiki.
• 42:29
  Why, why, I said, I said, because we're going down the wrong road.
• 42:32
  Hop out the car, change the springs, change the wings, change the cambers.
• 42:36
  Spent an hour, change the car, right, away you go again.
• 42:39
  And he come back on you already by the old handheld stopwatch, we were much quicker.
• 42:43
  That's fantastic, Dickie, he said.
• 42:45
  I said, yeah, because you have bloody understeer, not oversteer.
• 42:49
  But now you can see it all on the laptop.
• 42:52
  You can see the understeer going into the corner.
• 42:54
  You can see if they lock up a brake.
• 42:56
  You can see where the brake ratio is.
• 42:59
  You can see a much damper movement there is on the front left or that.
• 43:03
  I love, though, that there is still in your mind a level of importance placed on the driver and their response, their reaction, in conjunction, obviously, with that data.
• 43:13
  Yes, I think it's very important for a driver to learn how a car works, but not just get out the car and leave it to the engineer to look at the data.
• 43:24
  Sometimes computers have failures and that, but generally, I sit in the debriefs last year, we geared up from three to four BMWs, and it's interesting listening to the Ford drivers, what does the data show?
• 43:39
  Now, you tell us,
• 43:41
  what you feel the biggest problem is.
• 43:44
  And that was always my belief.
• 43:46
  What's the biggest problem?
• 43:47
  High speed, low speed?
• 43:49
  Is it into the corner, mid-corner or exit?
• 43:51
  Go back to basics.
• 43:53
  And I've still kept the books from 1981, Palmer, 82, Mancilla, 83, Centre, with circuit maps, handwritten, and the guys, T-I-M-C-E-X, turn in mid-corner exit.
• 44:08
  That's what the first thing what a car does when you turn in.
• 44:11
  That tells you what the problem is.
• 44:15
  Exit, we can sort it, but what's it going into the corner?
• 44:18
  The exit can be fundamental on...
• 44:21
  your entry and understeer, oversteer.
• 44:24
  And to me, that's still key how a race car works, whether it's a single-seater, aero, non-aero, touring car.
• 44:32
  Yeah.
• 44:33
  I think Martin Brundle has talked to my buddy Tom Clarkson about this for the official F1 podcast.
• 44:41
  That rivalry between the pair of them and when it ultimately boiled over
• 44:46
  in F3.
• 44:46
  I mean, that was a huge thing, really.
• 44:49
  I mean, we still talk about it all these years later, don't we?
• 44:52
  It brought over more than once.
• 44:55
  Kettle ran dry, I think.
• 44:57
  Yeah, as I said earlier, Ayrton didn't like finishing second.
• 45:02
  And we fell out a little bit over it because, you know, I said, you know, in those days it was nine points for a win, six points for second.
• 45:11
  And he would chuck away a finish, whereas he could have had six points.
• 45:15
  And we had such a points lead.
• 45:17
  I think we had a 37-point lead after race nine, race meeting nine.
• 45:24
  So you could afford to finish second and still win the championship.
• 45:26
  No, I want to win.
• 45:27
  So the determination on him.
• 45:29
  But then whether it was partially my fault, Eddie Jordan still disagrees, still doesn't believe it.
• 45:37
  But.
• 45:38
  We had heard that Martin got a fresh engine.
• 45:41
  We both had Nova Motor Toyotas built at Pedrazani in Italy.
• 45:48
  I did a deal with John Nicholson.
• 45:49
  Nicholson McLaren's built ours in England.
• 45:52
  Keep the business within Kiwis.
• 45:55
  Keep the money in the UK.
• 45:58
  But we then were told Martin had a fresh engine the second half of the year and that's where he got that little edge on us.
• 46:07
  because I was starting to run less rear wing to keep up with Martin down the straights.
• 46:11
  Wow.
• 46:12
  And it wasn't till then I thought, right, we'll go.
• 46:15
  So I sent Ayrton out to Nova Motor after the penultimate round.
• 46:21
  They rebuilt the engine and came back in a different engine.
• 46:25
  And we went for a half-day test at Snedderton, no, a day test at Snedderton pre the final championship round.
• 46:32
  We had lost number one.
• 46:34
  I had to buy number two and put on the car, which was 10p each, whatever they were.
• 46:40
  Because we started with number 11 being confident, and after race one to win it, you just pulled off one, so we're number one.
• 46:46
  Because in those days, you'd change the number.
• 46:48
  Based on your championship position.
• 46:49
  Yeah.
• 46:49
  Yeah.
• 46:50
  So this fresh engine, straightaway after his first run, and of course those days we were EJ and Martin and Garage 1, we were at Garage 30, timing each other all morning, and straightaway Ayrton was crazy.
• 47:06
  This engine's fantastic.
• 47:07
  I wish we'd had it earlier.
• 47:08
  I said, well, we didn't.
• 47:09
  We've got what we've got.
• 47:11
  And it was sharp.
• 47:12
  You could hear it, very sharp.
• 47:15
  So then, to help or make it worse for Martin, Reltz had two upgrades for 84.
• 47:21
  Ron Taranek, 15 minutes from us, Ron said, you've got side pods or some steering geometry.
• 47:28
  I said, no.
• 47:30
  We've played with steering geometry over the years, this cast of cambers.
• 47:38
  So I said, I'll take the side pods on.
• 47:41
  So we liveried them up the same as the race ones.
• 47:45
  put them on just before lunch on this test day, and I had the old stopwatch going, no quicker.
• 47:51
  So Ayrton comes in, hops out the car, we went for lunch over the cafe, he said, we're going to be quick this afternoon.
• 47:59
  I said, why is that?
• 48:00
  He said, those side pods are great.
• 48:02
  I said, we didn't go any quicker, he said, I'm not trying yet.
• 48:05
  He said, I'm not trying.
• 48:07
  So we had lunch, went out, old tyres still, and he went quicker straight away.
• 48:11
  He said, that engine and these side pods, mega.
• 48:14
  So we went to the final round, and of course paranoid reliability, the championship relies on one race now, Thruxton.
• 48:23
  So Thruxton being a fast track, one of the problems with the Toyota was it took a long time for the oil temperature to get up.
• 48:32
  So we tested its net and it didn't have an oil cooler.
• 48:35
  It had a slot in the side pod, an air about an inch wide, 25, 30 mil wide by about a foot deep.
• 48:43
  And used to tape that up to control the oil tank because the oil tank was just behind it in the side pod.
• 48:50
  So we tested and we taped it up.
• 48:52
  Yes, the oil temperature comes up.
• 48:53
  Obviously no air going to it.
• 48:55
  This is a mega for Thruxton.
• 48:57
  Lap one or lap two of the race will be there.
• 49:00
  We have to take the tape off.
• 49:02
  So we tested it at Snet and it worked.
• 49:04
  Got to Thruxton, we put it on.
• 49:07
  And then...
• 49:10
  I kick myself now for even being so silly to do it, but it worked.
• 49:14
  He made a storming start, cleared off in the lead, but trying to get the tape off around Thruxton was such a high-speed track.
• 49:22
  I put a little tag on the white tape so he could help pull it off, but it was back against the side pod, and he had to loosen his seatbelts to reach out to pull this tape off, and he almost lost control going through the chicane, and we laughed about it afterwards because he managed to get it off on about lap three, so the oil tin was creeping up very high.
• 49:44
  Wow.
• 49:45
  Could have blown the engine.
• 49:47
  And we really laughed about it.
• 49:48
  We weren't out for a party that Sunday night.
• 49:51
  I thought, you know, the effort to find that little bit edge for the lap one or two of the race, but it could have cost us the championship.
• 49:59
  Amazing.
• 50:00
  In wrapping up this little conversation, thank you for the depth here.
• 50:03
  People will really enjoy that.
• 50:06
  A word on Martin.
• 50:08
  Edden would go on to do some very special things and still be remembered as such.
• 50:12
  In that period where those two were going head to head, from what you observed of him and so on, did he have that special thing too?
• 50:20
  What was he like at that stage?
• 50:23
  EJ was very good.
• 50:24
  EJ was very good at winding people up.
• 50:28
  EJ's a great guy.
• 50:29
  We used to go and do Macau together, Marlborough Theodore.
• 50:31
  So we have great laughs, great fun.
• 50:34
  But EJ was a good manipulator too.
• 50:37
  And with me being a Kiwiat and being Brazilian against, you know, okay, EJ's Irish, but Martin being Brit, and he got all the Brits behind Martin.
• 50:47
  You know, Dickie, we're going to beat you.
• 50:48
  He'd really push it.
• 50:50
  I said, no problem, EJ, don't worry about it.
• 50:52
  But Martin lifted his game big time.
• 50:55
  And he said through us running Ayrton, lifted his game, that he could do a route.
• 51:01
  He had a route Toyota.
• 51:02
  We had a route Toyota.
• 51:03
  So if Ayrton could go that quick, he could go that quick.
• 51:06
  So it, you know.
• 51:08
  They pushed each other then in that sense, didn't they?
• 51:10
  Yes.
• 51:10
  Yep.
• 51:11
  Yep.
• 51:12
  And we still have that these days now with the touring cars.
• 51:16
  We've got Jake Hill on board and Colin Turkington.
• 51:19
  And Jake has turned out to be very quick.
• 51:21
  So, Colin, you have to lift your game, mate, because you're a teammate, and they can see each other's data.
• 51:27
  Whereas in those days, we only ran one car for Ayrton, so we had no data.
• 51:32
  There was no data, anyway, but we couldn't even talk to another driver about how good his car was on that corner or that corner.
• 51:40
  So, but no, Martin, I'll never forget it.
• 51:44
  The Autosport Awards, a couple of years ago, Martin was up doing the comparing on stage,
• 51:50
  And he mentioned me and he said, that bloke there, Dick Benes, destroyed my career, he said.
• 51:58
  So, yeah, in front of about a thousand people.
• 52:01
  So it was only light-hearted.
• 52:02
  Yeah, of course, of course.
• 52:04
  So, no, we see Martin now and BRDC members and have a good laugh about the past.
• 52:18
  It was a flashpoint moment in the careers of two very talented young racers on the path to F1.
• 52:25
  How good are his recollections from his point of view there?
• 52:29
  That's the end of part one of my podcast with West Surrey Racing's Dick Bennett.
• 52:33
  We are just getting warmed up.
• 52:36
  There is another helping for you to enjoy when you're ready.
• 52:39
  Jump back to the library.
• 52:40
  and power up part two whenever it suits from the move to the british touring car championship and the amazing two-liter super touring machines that were engineering masterpieces to the modern era and the bmw's his team now campaigns and memories much more memories of great names that he's worked with along the way