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Transcript

The Cost of Being a Disciple · The Grove Church

• 0:05
  Charlie Loften: The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There are really big, deep questions that we ask each other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves. And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in our understanding of who God is, his word, and the way that he's called us to live. Everyone, welcome to the Cultivate podcast with The Grove Church.
• 0:38
  I'm Charlie Loften. I am the lead pastor there, and I'm here with
• 0:42
  Abigail Boone: The one who Charlie loves.
• 0:44
  Charlie Loften: That's your go to.
• 0:45
  Abigail Boone: That's the one you're always gonna come I back really like it.
• 0:47
  Charlie Loften: Abigail Slash Bagel Boone. What? It's a
• 0:51
  Abigail Boone: high honor. It is.
• 0:53
  Charlie Loften: That you haven't just given to yourself. Podcast producer, creative director, small businesswoman.
• 1:02
  Abigail Boone: I am that and I've thought that more often recently because I'm like, I need more money. Guess I could qualify for a loan entrepreneur. I guess so. Yeah, but I I'm B2B. I don't I don't like sell a product to customers, you know, you know, to business.
• 1:19
  Charlie Loften: Okay.
• 1:20
  Abigail Boone: Nice. Yeah, sometimes people hear entrepreneur and it's like, where can we buy our product nowhere unless you're a business that needs my services.
• 1:28
  Charlie Loften: So every now and then we will get feedback from the podcast. Which is always welcome. Always welcome info @theGroveChurchorg would be great. Charlie @theGroveChurchorg
• 1:38
  Abigail Boone: Abigail
• 1:39
  Charlie Loften: Boone. Abigail @theGroveChurchorg, but we recently got some feedback here for extensive extensive. It was a fairly significant email and informative, right? Mean, don't necessarily read the whole thing. Well, it to make two main critiques.
• 1:55
  Abigail Boone: Yes,
• 1:56
  Charlie Loften: the first one
• 1:56
  Abigail Boone: we were wrong on both counts.
• 2:00
  Charlie Loften: The first one was
• 2:02
  Abigail Boone: that there are horse mounted police.
• 2:07
  Charlie Loften: I said there were horse mounted.
• 2:09
  Abigail Boone: I know, but I think my main point was that it's incredibly ineffective.
• 2:15
  Charlie Loften: Okay, well, she's the well, that's not that's not we're wrong. That's your wrong. And I was right. Depending on where you are, in a park.
• 2:25
  Abigail Boone: Or in a crowd. One of her examples is from Elf.
• 2:30
  Charlie Loften: From Elf!
• 2:32
  Abigail Boone: Those do look really scary.
• 2:34
  Charlie Loften: They were effective, but scary.
• 2:35
  Abigail Boone: Yes. Really scary. Yeah. Will you get around Central Park?
• 2:39
  Charlie Loften: A Segway? E bike,
• 2:43
  Abigail Boone: or one of those moped or the scooter thing,
• 2:46
  Charlie Loften: It is very effective and quite intimidating. See the movie elf. So she is not disagreeing with us there. She is disagreeing with me.
• 2:56
  Abigail Boone: And also I've never seen it. Maybe you have have you seen The Walking Dead?
• 3:00
  Charlie Loften: I watched a few seasons of it and got a little bored.
• 3:04
  Abigail Boone: I watched the first episode and there's a gruesome horse accident, which is funny. And I couldn't go past that because it was so gory.
• 3:12
  Charlie Loften: I love the first episode of Walking Dead is one of the best episodes of any tell. It was just such an interesting concept. It was an interesting concept of you got this sheriff or deputy or whatever. And he's in the hospital. Yeah, and goes into some sort of coma and wakes
• 3:30
  Abigail Boone: up to that
• 3:30
  Charlie Loften: to that. I just thought the premise of that just hooks you
• 3:35
  Abigail Boone: sure just so good. So good. Whenever I have this theory that if I was a space freaks me out to no end. Also the deep ocean but
• 3:43
  Charlie Loften: space is more the most irrational fear I have is that somehow I'm going to have to I'm going to be in a situation where I have to do a spacewalk.
• 3:51
  Abigail Boone: Yes. So there's
• 3:52
  Charlie Loften: gotta be
• 3:53
  Abigail Boone: a name for that. But I've said that if I somehow got untethered from my ship, I'm just taking the helmet off right away.
• 4:01
  Charlie Loften: Doesn't seem like a great way to die.
• 4:03
  Abigail Boone: It'd be so fast.
• 4:06
  Charlie Loften: As fast as you think
• 4:07
  Abigail Boone: if you can't live outside of the suit, right? Surely is like, you know, and so in The Walking Dead if I was the cop that woke up, I'd be like,
• 4:17
  Charlie Loften: nope, you're be like turn
• 4:19
  Abigail Boone: me into
• 4:19
  Charlie Loften: a zombie. Get me at least I'll be a zombie, but I will be I won't
• 4:23
  Abigail Boone: know the exact anxiety of the Chase really kills me. So that was her other point.
• 4:29
  Charlie Loften: What's point number two in which you were wrong? Not we were wrong
• 4:32
  Abigail Boone: This one. I think we were both wrong. I was more grossed out by bagged liquids
• 4:39
  Charlie Loften: bagged liquids
• 4:39
  Abigail Boone: and she made some really valid points. This is also shout out to Cassie Capri Sun and Gokert. I really do enjoy both of those things.
• 4:48
  Charlie Loften: Not like a Capri Sun.
• 4:49
  Abigail Boone: It's really good. Every time I'm at my niece and nephew's house, I still go Gurt.
• 4:55
  Charlie Loften: This is too much information even on a Christian podcast. Like, my mother-in-law is a huge fan of the box the box wine.
• 5:03
  Abigail Boone: Oh, yeah, wine in
• 5:04
  Charlie Loften: a box. Really? Is wine
• 5:06
  Abigail Boone: in a bag enclosed in a box. Exactly.
• 5:09
  Charlie Loften: It's bag wine, not box wine,
• 5:11
  Abigail Boone: but also like, okay, but here's the thing about these. I imagine a wine skin to be super unstructured, like the box wine without the box. But like Go GURT has like the seam on the side Capri Sun has the seams where it's like still an upright object that's structured that makes it a little makes better better. It makes it better drinking out of just like a loose water balloon. Yeah, I'm gonna drink water.
• 5:39
  That's just like, but also its skin animal skin. You even said that in our in the sermon this Sunday. Yeah, he dressed him with animal skins and I'm
• 5:51
  Charlie Loften: like, so it seems like maybe that your problem isn't with the concept of liquids in a bag. It's just the idea of anything having to do with animal skins.
• 6:01
  Abigail Boone: I think so. Yeah.
• 6:02
  Charlie Loften: Okay, but
• 6:03
  Abigail Boone: if they would have gotten like a leaf and somehow been able to put it in the leaf or like a big tropical plant.
• 6:09
  Charlie Loften: I'm going to make a bowl out of leaves and drink out of that.
• 6:13
  Abigail Boone: Would be better significantly better.
• 6:15
  Charlie Loften: I don't know that could hold the wine though,
• 6:17
  Abigail Boone: but I think if you got like a birds of paradise plant surely they had those super tropical.
• 6:23
  Charlie Loften: So the way that I'm understanding this, you are conceding both points to Cassie.
• 6:27
  Abigail Boone: I think so.
• 6:28
  Charlie Loften: Yes. Okay. Congratulations. That's not easy to do to get Abigail Boone to concede the two points,
• 6:34
  Abigail Boone: but I stand by being grossed out by skins and that is perfectly fine. If I see a cop on a horse, I'm gonna laugh that that's the thing. You got stuck with.
• 6:43
  Charlie Loften: I think you would be scared
• 6:44
  Abigail Boone: if he was coming for me. Yes, but I'm rarely if ever the target of police. Rarely, if ever. I don't think I've ever been chased. In
• 6:58
  Charlie Loften: Homecoming and Christmas parades in Jonesboro, Arkansas, what ended the parade?
• 7:05
  Abigail Boone: I think it would have been the king and queen, right?
• 7:07
  Charlie Loften: It was always four policemen on a horse on horses. Oh, they were that that is what they were made. And they really weren't part of the parade. It was just more like they're there to okay. See this make sure that the bads breaking out and that's how you knew the pool the parade was over because the police on the horses came.
• 7:24
  Abigail Boone: There's two factors here one. This is true that your town is a lot more Southern than mine to you're very old and there's police horsemen riding down a little dirt road after your parade ends
• 7:36
  Charlie Loften: dirt road.
• 7:39
  Abigail Boone: That's the only two things that could happen here. We never had horses at our road. I don't know what Eldorado is like, it's like imagining like Andy Griffith, the Mayberry Roads.
• 7:52
  Charlie Loften: I am the lead the person the last person on this planet to defend El Dorado, Arkansas,
• 7:58
  Abigail Boone: but you're going to defend it right now. But
• 8:01
  Charlie Loften: the roads in the town are I
• 8:04
  Abigail Boone: don't think we have any horse policemen in Jonesboro. I've never seen that.
• 8:09
  Charlie Loften: You know, I don't I think that's the only time I ever saw them in the parade. It was just a ceremonial thing that they did for parade. Again, no defense of El Dorado, but I cannot possibly imagine on what planet you think that there is some category difference between Jonesboro and El Dorado. Like if you took the Arkansas State University and removed it,
• 8:32
  Abigail Boone: Yeah.
• 8:33
  Charlie Loften: The towns are the same. We didn't have horsemen. This is your assignment between now and the next time we record. I want you to take that concept to your parents. There were never any in Jonesboro any policeman on horses ever.
• 8:53
  Abigail Boone: Your lifetime. I was alive.
• 8:55
  Charlie Loften: Okay. Yeah, I'm down for that. While you were
• 8:58
  Abigail Boone: 18 years in the eighteen year span that I was there.
• 9:02
  Charlie Loften: Right. Then bring and bring that back. Good. Sounds like Granny Boone can help us out
• 9:08
  Abigail Boone: with probably. Okay, I can probably texture right now. Live call in from like dealer no deal.
• 9:17
  Charlie Loften: You, Cassie for for rebuking Abigail and some of her mediocre takes. Right. We have been doing parables for a hot minute and we just did one in Luke 14.
• 9:29
  Abigail Boone: Yes.
• 9:30
  Charlie Loften: And about, how we should have a more of a selfless attitude in relationships rather than a reciprocal ones, and we should humble ourselves rather than lift ourselves up, which then led to another parable that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees about to kind of really help them understand that not only are you not great in this world, but because of your attitude in this world, you're going to struggle in the next life as well. You're going to miss the invitation. And now just right after that, we're about to get another parable, but the transition here is going to be He is no longer here with these Pharisees. Verse 25, large crowds were traveling with Jesus and turning to them, he said. So we've switched venues.
• 10:16
  Abigail Boone: He's not in the contested waters.
• 10:18
  Charlie Loften: He's not there anymore. He is with people. He's with the people. His large crowds, right? Usually it's either he's talking to people who oppose him.
• 10:27
  He's talking to just his followers or he's talking to the crowds. We know we're in the crowds, but there's an interesting thing that I'll make sure we understand here in this transition because in the parable that he talks about right before that we covered several weeks ago. Was all these people that the all these people are invited to this banquet and all these people give excuses. I can't come.
• 10:47
  Abigail Boone: I can't come. I can't come. I can't come.
• 10:49
  Charlie Loften: And then the lame beggars those he said we're going to we're going to fill this place up Master told his servant, go out the roads, country lanes, compel them to come so that my house will be full. I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet. So all of these religious elitist kind of people, they got the initial invites and didn't say yes. And so even though they're invited, they don't make it there, but it is just regular people that are going to be the ones that make it. And so immediately then the transition is with those and now he's with the regular people.
• 11:30
  And your instinct is to think he's going to have some really good fun, encouraging words to say to them. The elitist, they're bad. They're going to miss out on everything. And it's the bros that that are the ones that are going to end up there. And Jesus is now with the bros.
• 11:52
  Abigail Boone: And
• 11:53
  Charlie Loften: your natural instinct in the flow of that is we're about to move from him talking to bad guys. Harsh things. These are my people, and I've got nothing but encouraging words to say them. Abigail Boone, if you think that's what's about to happen
• 12:07
  Abigail Boone: Oh, just you wait.
• 12:08
  Charlie Loften: Assure you it is not. These are the first words out of his mouth. Verse 26, If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, Yes, even their own life such a person cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. That's really extreme.
• 12:30
  That's fun. That's great. Yeah. I mean, you again, it's the contrast between his interactions with the Pharisees to this. And again, what you expect him to say.
• 12:46
  These are the people that responded to the invite, and now he comes to the people who supposedly are the ones that are going to respond to the invite, and he says, Unless you are willing to take these, what feel like harsh, extreme measures, you won't make it. You can't say you won't make it either because they weren't there when he was talking about But that's the way your brain goes. You're not going to make it either unless you live up to these
• 13:13
  Abigail Boone: high cost,
• 13:14
  Charlie Loften: high cost sorts of decisions.
• 13:17
  Abigail Boone: This is a moment where we've mentioned before that Paul's seen as the intense dude and Jesus is the soft lovey one. And I know the sections or paragraphs before this were the same, but this is like, I don't know. Was pretty intense, too.
• 13:32
  Charlie Loften: He's pretty intense. Gloss over some of Jesus's rough edges in the same way we ignore the God God in the Old Testament, some of his more gracious things. We were it's just more easy to put, well, the God of the Old Testament is so mean. I've got him in a box. Yeah.
• 13:53
  So I can dismiss him and Jesus is a bro. And so I put him in a box and so then I can dismiss anything that feels anything less than bro ish. And then Paul Paul, did mean he's not Jesus. He's like, he says he's not Jesus. And what he says is a matchup with Jesus goes Jesus.
• 14:13
  I don't know if you know, this was a bro. And now here it is. Yeah, you can be my disciple, but only if you hate
• 14:19
  Abigail Boone: your if only
• 14:20
  Charlie Loften: if you hate your mom. And if you hate your mom, then you're good. Should we should we figure should we try to explain that first
• 14:26
  Abigail Boone: or go to the I would love for you to explain that. Are we going to go back to it?
• 14:30
  Charlie Loften: Here's here's the here's the thing that pastor teachers always say. Well, Abigail, obviously Jesus doesn't hate right?
• 14:40
  Abigail Boone: But he said it.
• 14:42
  Charlie Loften: Okay, but that but in his defense, I don't know. That is an English word.
• 14:50
  Abigail Boone: Hate is
• 14:50
  Charlie Loften: hate is an English word, right? That that's our word.
• 14:53
  Abigail Boone: So like everybody says, like, hate is the one thing you should not do,
• 14:57
  Charlie Loften: right? And Jesus and Jesus says, we need to love everybody, you know, and this is and there are plenty of scriptures to say that if you hate somebody,
• 15:07
  Abigail Boone: it's like killing the
• 15:08
  Charlie Loften: same as murder. Jesus says that, right?
• 15:10
  Abigail Boone: If you
• 15:11
  Charlie Loften: hate, you might as well be killing them. It's the same level. This is the same Jesus.
• 15:15
  Abigail Boone: Is that the same hate word?
• 15:17
  Charlie Loften: So the idea here is one just hyperbole in general. Okay. And then context clues also help us but this word here that is used both the Greek word here and the Hebrew word that is often associated with this too is has the idea of reject versus choose. Okay, given a choice. I choose Jesus.
• 15:44
  Abigail Boone: Okay,
• 15:45
  Charlie Loften: I reject choosing you. I choose Jesus is not the same as what we mean by hate, which is I actively will cause you harm. And so when Jesus used again, context matters a ton. And so again, there is a clearer softer word that Jesus could have used. Yeah, he could have said anybody who chooses to do what their parents say.
• 16:14
  When I tell them to do something different can't be my disciple. Well, yeah, I mean, if I'm going to follow you, then I've then I have to follow your teachings, not someone else's teachings, Of course, he levels it up a little bit like you can't follow your own instincts. Have to follow my instincts. Yeah. Okay.
• 16:30
  Yeah, sure. But he levels it up a little bit by choosing the rejection, a stronger word, but not quite as strong as what we instinctively mean by the word hate. Yeah, I'm going to actively cause you harm. Yeah, I wish harm upon my parents. I wish harm upon my brother and sister.
• 16:49
  I wish harm upon myself. And I'm going to actively pursue things that bring them harm. And then I can be Jesus' disciple. Just doesn't make sense based on the totality of His teaching. But it does mean something.
• 17:04
  And again, in the context here, it is about who who are you really going to follow?
• 17:10
  Abigail Boone: But he said he's talking to is are we assuming this crowd is anyone or these are people who are following him.
• 17:21
  Charlie Loften: These are people who are interested enough to kind of follow him around. Okay, Large crowds were traveling with Jesus like enough people were like, I'm going to hang out here long enough. He's he intrigues me enough to maybe maybe I do want to follow
• 17:41
  Abigail Boone: him, but not his disciples. It was a cycle there was there, but it's not like he's not that type of person
• 17:47
  Charlie Loften: talking to that level. Okay. All right. So and I think what he says here at the end is going to help us here a little bit to Now we get to the parable. Suppose one of you wants to build a tower, won't you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?
• 18:02
  For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying this person began to build and wasn't able to finish. Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won't he sit down and consider whether he is able with 10,000 men to oppose the one coming against him with 20,000? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
• 18:34
  Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile. It is thrown out. Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.
• 18:48
  Abigail Boone: I feel like that last paragraph was really random. We can get there.
• 18:55
  Charlie Loften: I want to I want to make sure we catch the last thing that he said, though, regardless of the randomness of
• 19:01
  Abigail Boone: his ears, let them hear
• 19:02
  Charlie Loften: that is something that Jesus says very often associated with some of his more confusing statements. Like he'll say something like, woah, and then he ends up. If you really listen, you'll get it. That's really what he's saying. You if you really have ears, if you really heard me, then hear what I'm saying.
• 19:32
  Am I willing to just kind of am I willing to kind of do the work to kind of get at is Jesus really calling me? What is he really saying here? I can be taken aback by an exaggerated hyperbole use of the word hate whatever rolls off. I'm out. I'm out.
• 19:54
  I'm out. So I didn't really I didn't really have ears. So I dismiss it on some of why can't I can't follow this sort of guy. It's like what could what could a guy who talks so much about how important it is to love one another. What could he possibly be saying here?
• 20:13
  Abigail Boone: Yeah.
• 20:14
  Charlie Loften: Okay. Know, okay, what somebody got to you got to eventually figure, okay, you're going to build a house, you got to make sure you got enough money materials to do it. If you're going to go to war, you got to make sure you got enough soldiers to win. Okay, so I have to to use a phrase that we use. Have to count the cost has to count the cost, right?
• 20:36
  I have to to decide is doing this worth the price because it would be way worse to try to do it and not do it than to just not do it,
• 20:49
  Abigail Boone: which is interesting because I feel like This is probably not the best phrase to put it but it's like it's not for everyone like if you actually here and you actually count the cost you may end up not doing it right like the soldiers thing like it's not like count the cost and we're pretty much the underdog. But here we go.
• 21:11
  Charlie Loften: Yeah, he's not Jesus is not trying to just like how many how many followers can I get on Instagram? Yeah, right. He's like, just I just need you to click the button and say that you like me. Right? That's not what he's looking for.
• 21:25
  And I think if you have ears, you'll hear that. I'm not looking for someone who is interested in what I say. I'm not interested in someone who just kind of likes my vibe, who's interested in listening to me.
• 21:40
  Abigail Boone: Likes the people I'm with.
• 21:41
  Charlie Loften: Yeah, who will like, I'll consider your teaching and I'll follow you as a teacher. I'm interested in your life advice. He is looking for someone to completely turn their life around. I reject my old life and I choose a new life. I'm not looking for a new guru.
• 22:04
  I'm looking for a new life. I need it's not about what my the values my mom and dad gave me. It's not about what my friends say. It is not about what is what I think is best for me. I am choosing something very different.
• 22:20
  I'm choosing to follow Jesus. And that means more than listening to him pleasantly. Yeah, it is it is it is it is something that is going to cost me my entire life,
• 22:31
  Abigail Boone: which I feel like probably like if someone's talking to me about. Like, do you want to come on this road trip or something like that? I might think like and I'll have time this weekend, but if they're like, well, you really need to decide because we won't be back for another year. Feel like, okay, right. Let me think like it shows kind of like the value of the call by how much he's asking them to like, are you willing to actually make this turn?
• 22:59
  Charlie Loften: Yeah, or like a challenge that you might give to one of your kids. Here is this great prize.
• 23:06
  Abigail Boone: And
• 23:07
  Charlie Loften: you are here. In order for you to get this, I need you to do this.
• 23:15
  Abigail Boone: That's hard to do.
• 23:17
  Charlie Loften: Right? And if you do this, you'll get it. If you don't, you don't. You have to decide. Are you willing to to do this chore to do this task to follow this show that to do whatever it is that I've told you.
• 23:32
  And then everything that you want is there, right? Yeah. I mean, honestly, college is a little bit that way. Yeah, there is if I am willing to wait for years in the work for four years, I will theoretically be granted this status that will allow me then to experience life in a different way.
• 23:54
  Abigail Boone: If
• 23:55
  Charlie Loften: that's not what you want, if you're not willing to put in the work,
• 23:59
  Abigail Boone: don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it.
• 24:01
  Charlie Loften: Yeah, it's best to just it's best to just not it's not that this thing is not incredibly valuable. It is incredibly valuable. It's not for everybody. Again, that's what the college metaphor is falling apart here because college is in fact not for
• 24:13
  Abigail Boone: everybody. Right.
• 24:15
  Charlie Loften: Right. But it is going to cost you something you do not want to go to school for a year, get $15,000 in debt, drink and party your way out of it and fail have to go back home. A failure with $15,000 worth of debt and trying to figure out now what am I going to do with the rest of my life? Know, you don't want to do You need to make sure you understand what it is that you're doing. Yeah.
• 24:45
  Now, theologically, want make sure we're not talking about that there in order to earn your salvation. There are works that you have to do, right?
• 24:51
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. Yeah.
• 24:53
  Charlie Loften: Following Jesus is about committing your life fully to him.
• 24:59
  Abigail Boone: And I do think in the same sense of it not being legalistic. There's no way for someone to be like, I'm saying yes to Jesus. And we're like, wait, let's think about what your marriage is going be like, let's think about your raising kids is going to be like, let's think about like, can't necessarily go through all of those things, but just like realizing how much like this is just like a piece of the pie that is giving over in your life. It's the whole entire pie.
• 25:23
  Charlie Loften: Yeah, This is Jesus is asking for. Want you to follow me, but I am calling you to a complete and totally different sort of life. I'm not asking to enter into your life. I'm asking you to follow me and I'm going to remake your life completely again. Is it is these there there and we could go back I guess at some point and put these into categories, right?
• 25:49
  I mean, there's different categories for different parables. I mean, you've got you've got, you know, prodigal son on one hand, which is like the irrational unconditional love of God. You've got the guy with the workers in the in the field who's got a full day's labor for an hour's worth of work, And just the full generosity and unconditional love and favor of God. And then you've got the parable of the talents, which is like, I've given you this, and I'm going to come back and see what you did with it. And my pleasure depends on your faithfulness.
• 26:26
  Yeah, and then you and this goes into that category. I enter God's favor completely as a gift. But once there, I have a significant stewardship. Again, and it does speak against this idea of, oh my name Jesus again, he sounds like a cool guy.
• 26:43
  Abigail Boone: Yeah,
• 26:43
  Charlie Loften: I'll I'll kind of I'll kind of I'll kind of listen to him. I mean, even even if it's salvation is fully free, the decision that you're making to follow Jesus in that moment is to say, I am rejecting something and turning completely towards something. I'm not asking Jesus to come in and bro out with me in my life of sin. I'm saying I want to reject. I reject.
• 27:10
  I'm repenting of this and turning towards Jesus. And that's what he's saying here. Right? In order to really be my disciple, you have to repent of your previous life and turn towards a different life. Again, the use of the word hate and bringing mom into it, I mean, it escalates it.
• 27:32
  But it's not that I'm watering it down by saying the thing that I said because how does he end it? He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Do the thoughtful work and really get at what I'm saying here. What I'm saying here is following me has a real cost. And if you're not willing to pay that cost, you're not really going to be my disciple.
• 27:53
  And so Jesus did all the work to forgive all of the sin, but my choice to follow him is a choice to reject
• 28:03
  Abigail Boone: everything,
• 28:04
  Charlie Loften: everything and follow him. Again, doesn't mean I have to hate my mom forever. And that's in any real sense, right? I hate my mom, but I do have to turn from anything that's not Jesus turns out loving my family is something that Jesus wants me to do. And so I get I get I get that back.
• 28:28
  But if loving my family means I have to fall into really dysfunctional systems or to live a life in such a way that God has considered immoral. Then I I continue to reject that even as I love her. I still am rejecting this thing. That is not what Jesus has called me to.
• 28:48
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. So what about about the 34? Yeah. So we did the parable of the salt.
• 28:56
  Charlie Loften: Salt is a very is a common metaphor. Sure. Right. And so salt has a a quality about it. Like it is used for preservation.
• 29:07
  It is something that you can put on unrefrigerated meat to make it last a little bit longer. It is something that can be used for flavor. And this is something that Jesus said, like, this is this is what I've I've called you to be salt. You are meant to bring spice and preservation to the world. You are the salt of the earth.
• 29:27
  And so he's sitting here talking about if you're going to be my disciple, you've got to reject all of this and follow Me. You don't want to be like this guy who builds half a house, and you don't want to be like this person who this king that went and fought and got dominated in the army. You don't want to be like that. You want to be someone who fully follows me. You don't want to be don't be someone who guess loses the thread.
• 29:56
  So like someone If who you're supposed to be salt and suddenly you're I'm I'm going to be salt and then suddenly you stop doing what I've called you to do, then you become useless.
• 30:11
  Abigail Boone: So it's kind of like an encouragement to why to turn and repent to like all of these things like
• 30:17
  Charlie Loften: it is going it is part of the cost of discipleship. Like if you if you do that if you say that you're going to do it and you don't you say I'm going to bring preservation and flavor to the world. Then you don't. There's really no value in almost following Jesus. Yeah, there's there is following and not following.
• 30:42
  There's not almost following. There's not sort of following. Yeah, which again is a is a hard thing for some people to hear where it's like, because a lot of us do we are we are doing our very best to try to prove Jesus wrong. Like, no, you can. Yeah, you can sort of follow him.
• 30:59
  You can just kind of come to his meeting and I kind of I kind of like most of what he says and most I'm just kind of living my life based on my own values with a little bit of Jesus input, right? He is one of he is one of the advisors at the table when my family sits down to decide what kind of what we're going to do and who we're going to be this year. Jesus gets a vote. Yeah. And Jesus like, that's not that's not what this is.
• 31:25
  That is not what following me is. And, you know, we people continue to try and is to those people that Jesus is speaking. You don't you don't sort of do this. You you you do it.
• 31:41
  Abigail Boone: And I think in the same thought also on it's not about legalism of like you have to do X amount of things to become a follower. It's also like some of the things of rejecting you won't even think about until the moment hits you years down the line probably of like, oh, right. I have to do this with my finances when I get to this point in life. I'm still rejecting and following in this way. And it's not like all at one time.
• 32:11
  You're going through your whole life choices that are going to come up.
• 32:15
  Charlie Loften: Again, some people just try to again, put a post Paul post resurrection. Can you lose your salvation sort of theological arguments behind this as a go. Okay, then. Somebody receives Jesus and then gives up halfway and they become useless. They became a Christian and they then they lost their salvation.
• 32:35
  That's just not what Jesus is talking about. He's talking about the salvation is something that you give your full life to
• 32:41
  Abigail Boone: and
• 32:42
  Charlie Loften: it full stop. That is what this is. Yeah. What if what if you what if at some point while you've supposedly given your whole life to Jesus, you mess up like, oh, God, there's plenty of other verses that speak specifically to that about the grace of God. We're not talking about someone who is trying to get is giving their life to Jesus and sometimes fails at it.
• 33:08
  Like Peter did. Yeah, he seemed to be able to forgive Peter really quickly, Right? I mean,
• 33:16
  Abigail Boone: he did some messy stuff.
• 33:17
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. I mean, he and denied him three times and threatened to, you know, cut somebody for saying he knew Jesus. Like, I'm, know, just he did. Obviously, Jesus is always forgiving and gracious and he's he's helping all those things are true. But all of that is in the context of people who have laid down their lives for Jesus.
• 33:40
  Failing to do something that you're intending to do is different than this is never what I intended.
• 33:45
  Abigail Boone: Yeah.
• 33:46
  Charlie Loften: Hey, it turns out in order to be a follower of Jesus, you have to have these sorts of priorities. Well, don't want that. And then you're well, then what are you doing? This is what this is. It is giving your life fully to it.
• 34:03
  And I have to balance the grace and forgiveness of God with this idea of Jesus is asking for my whole life.
• 34:12
  Abigail Boone: When
• 34:13
  Charlie Loften: we focus on one, that God is gracious and kind and forgiving, then I end up with just kind of this soft, easy belief. You know, that it's just the Jesus again, Jesus is a is a is a counselor and advisor. And that's a mediocre something or I can focus exclusively on it's going to be hard and he asked for everything and I lose sight of the fact that this is all about reconnecting with a God who loves me more than I can even possibly imagine. I put these two things together. Everything I have has been given freely to me, but I have also made a choice to give my whole life to God.
• 34:53
  Yeah. And we can and I I said this, trying to think exactly when this is going to air three weeks ago, three weeks, one, two weeks ago, three weeks ago, anyways, at church. Oh, or you just kind of talked about I really do think of all the off ramps. One of the biggest ones is our inability to put those two ideas together. The work that needs to be done to get me in a relationship with God was done by Jesus and he has called me to a life of service.
• 35:25
  Both of those things are true. And if we can't keep them balanced, isn't even in the right word, I almost like
• 35:32
  Abigail Boone: two full glasses of
• 35:34
  Charlie Loften: water tension parallel together. Yeah, I like that. I've got I've got I've got I've got two things and they're and they're connected, but they know they know they're not against each other, right? But just one of them
• 35:49
  Abigail Boone: is insufficient
• 35:50
  Charlie Loften: is insufficient for really what God has called me to every he did all the work. Has called me to work. Yeah, I mean that that's what Ephesians two eight through 10 says everything is based on his work. Has called me to work. And if you and if you don't, if you don't balance those out, you'll you'll you'll fade one way or the other.
• 36:11
  Yeah, either turn into your life will fall apart because you don't take the call on your life seriously enough, or you're going to burn out because you don't you're trying to you're trying to earn something that cannot be earned. So this falls into the category of hey, when those of us who live deeply in the grace of God need to also be reminded
• 36:33
  Abigail Boone: is a cost of this.
• 36:35
  Charlie Loften: He's asked for you have you've theoretically the things that you said when you got baptized or where you prayed to receive Jesus, whatever you said, I've given you my life. I repent. This is what that means. It was not a great podcast minute. Was that was a that was a that was a small sermon.
• 36:51
  I was a devote. That was a devotional was a devotional.
• 36:53
  Abigail Boone: But I like it. I was a yes and amen.
• 36:55
  Charlie Loften: It was I wasn't it was it wasn't that it was bad content. It was just best like the old original cultivate podcast. So it's just me by myself talking for I
• 37:05
  Abigail Boone: got here. It before I got
• 37:08
  Charlie Loften: here for before before the Bagel Boone. Right. Well, thank you as always for for being here with us and thank you for joining us as well. Again, we've got a few more of these to do and excited about sharing them with you. Encourage you to come back and we'd love to connect with you on a Sunday.
• 37:23
  If we haven't, you can find us at thegrovechurch.org. In our connect page, you'll find a form you can fill out. You can ask us questions. You can rebuke any of Abigail's bad takes. Questions that you have, things that we can cover, we would love to hear, from you on that.
• 37:39
  And we would love to see you on our services, either online or in person. All the information you need is there. And, thank you for joining us, and we'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to the Cultivate podcast. Our hope is that you are taking steps to go deeper in your faith, that you are asking big questions, and you're looking for answers.
• 38:00
  We hope that we can be a resource for you through our podcast and any other way that we can help you. You can find all our episodes anywhere that you can find podcasts, including YouTube. And, again, thank you so much for joining us.