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Following the Money: Charles Asher Small · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

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I'm Rabbi Ammi Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New
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York, and this is In These Times
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The sun had barely set on October 7th when American universities
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erupted in protest against Israel.
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I couldn't wrap my head around how American students could be so
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vehemently opposed to the Jewish state's response before Israel had
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even pushed back the terrorists inside its own borders and retaken its towns.
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My guest today, Dr. Charles Asher Small, wasn't surprised.
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The founding director of ISGAP, the Institute for the Study of Global
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Antisemitism and Policy, he's been following the more than $100 billion
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of dark money flowing into American universities from foreign actors,
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including the Qatari government, Muslim Brotherhood finance foundations, and
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terror-linked entities since 2012.
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The question isn't whether that foreign influence is real,
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but rather what has it bought?
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Dr. Small, welcome, uh, to In These Times.
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It's good to see you again.
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I'm honored to be here, Rabbi Hirsch.
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Thank you for having me.
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You're doing, uh, such important work.
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Uh, I'm not sure that everybody who is listening, um, knows about the
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Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy which we in the
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Jewish community lovingly call ISGAP.
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Um, so tell us what that is and why the work is important.
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Thank you.
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So ISGAP is a… We call ourselves a high-caliber research center.
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We have an academic side and a policy side.
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So the goal is to get some of the best minds to sort of map and
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decode and then combat antisemitism.
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So we have a small research center at the University of Cambridge in
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the UK, where we have postdocs and graduate students focusing on the
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interdisciplinary study of antisemitism.
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We have a summer institute there we've been running since 2014, training scholars
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on helping them to create curriculum on contemporary antisemitism studies.
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So we have about 700 graduates from over 35 countries that are teaching f- courses
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for credit in their home university.
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So we take all this scholarship, and we wanna make it actionable,
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so we also work in policy.
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We have an amazing team in Washington, D.C. that's brought our
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work to Congress, to the Senate.
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We've testified in Congress and the Senate.
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Uh, we work with the State Department, the Treasury Department.
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One of our projects is Follow the Money, where we're exposing a lot of the foreign
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influence from Qatar and the Muslim Brotherhood in higher, higher education.
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So we've had some policy impact in the United States, and we're
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doing this in Canada and the UK as well, as well as Israel.
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Um, we have entities in the United States, where our head office is in New York.
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We're active in Canada, the UK, Italy, and Israel.
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And we have about 80 research fellows associated with us around
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the world, so we're, we're active.
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And when was ISGAP established?
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So we established it in 2003.
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I was the founding director, and I had the really the privilege and honor uh, to
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establish this with Professor Elie Wiesel.
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He was our first honorary president, and ISGAP really emerged out of,
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um, an, an international conference that Elie Wiesel organized with
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Kofi Annan at the United Nations.
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And at that event, there was a small group of scholars that I think we
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sort of saw the social and economic and global conditions were becoming
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ripe for the rise of antisemitism.
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And from that conference, we started ISGAP
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So th- the main thrust was the rise of antisemitism.
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In recent years, is it fair to say that you've focused particularly on, on
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what's happening on university campuses?
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Or is it… Uh, are you still broadly focused on the phenomenon of antisemitism?
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So we're, we're still-- We're an interdisciplinary research center,
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so scholars look at antisemitism at a global level from different, I guess,
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ideological, but also at different academic disciplinary traditions.
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So we have different voices and different perspectives.
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And I think one of the main projects, one our, our most successful project
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was called Follow the Money, which actually started by mistake in 2012,
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uh, where we stumbled into some Muslim Brotherhood money going to
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Yale University, and the project grew.
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In 2019, we presented at a summit in Washington in front of a, I guess,
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a top, top 100 civil servants in DC.
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We presented our work, um, in front of the head of Homeland
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Security, the head of FBI, the, um, d- director of the Department of
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Education, the attorney general.
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It was a major event, and at that time, we found $3 billion in undocumented
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money coming from the Muslim Brotherhood to American universities.
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Um, the first Trump administration then launched an investigation.
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They found $18 billion in a few months, and then the investigation
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was eventually called off.
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And because of our success, our research has grown, and now we've--
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we estimate that we've discovered up to $100 billion in undocumented
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money coming to American universities.
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So we've been focusing in higher education, but our research is expanding
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to other s-spheres of our society.
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When you say you stumbled upon, I think you said $100 billion,
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were you looking for it, or did
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you- No
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… just happen to stumble on it?
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I literally stumbled on it.
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My background is social theory, and I was at Stanford University one night, and I
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was late, um, delivering a manuscript.
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I'm always a bit behind schedule, and I spent about three weeks pulling
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all-nighters and not sleeping or eating well, and I finally submitted
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the manuscript late at night one evening, and I couldn't sleep.
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I was sort of wired, and I started surfing the internet, and I came across
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an email from a vice president at Yale University, where I started the first
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research center dealing with antisemitism at a North American university.
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And this vice president was very hostile to what we were doing.
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He was a roommate of Rashid Khalili when they were both students at
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Yale, and he was very antagonistic.
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I came across this email late at night and I googled him for the first time,
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and it turned out that he worked for a pharmaceutical company in Cambridge,
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Massachusetts, and I googled that company.
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It turned out it was owned by a Saudi businessman.
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I googled the family's name.
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It was a-- the family was Ben Mahfouz.
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So Ben Mahfouz's chemical factory in Sudan was bombed by the Clinton administration.
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So I started googling, and in about an hour or so, I found what I thought was a
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network of Muslim Brotherhood and terror finance entities, banks, and foundations
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that was giving money to Yale and Harvard.
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And I didn't know if I was-- this was my imagination or I kind of
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stumbled into a tip of an iceberg.
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So I gave my preliminary findings to experts on counterterrorism and
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radical Islam, and it turned out that I, by mistake, stumbled into this
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network of, uh, of people donating and influencing our higher education.
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And what year was that?
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2012.
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In all the research that you've done, w- can you estimate how much money
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comes not only-- not from foreign sources, 'cause some of those sources,
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I imagine, are legitimate and- Sure
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reasonable sources.
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But, uh, how much money is coming from enemies of Western civilization
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and enemies of the United States and, of course, enemies of Jews?
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So it's a very important question, and I don't, I don't have the
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definitive answer to, to be honest.
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But what I know is in terms of Qatar, Qatar is a tiny country of about 350,000
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citizens, and the regime has a baya.
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The leaders of Qatar follow the-- all of the religious edicts, rulings,
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and fatwas of the Muslim Brotherhood.
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And for your listeners, the Muslim Brotherhood is a, is, um, a very
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narrow, reactionary interpretation of the great religion of Islam.
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It takes the protocols of the elders of Zion and even Nazism and fuses
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it with this perversion of Islam.
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And the raison d'être of the Muslim Brotherhood, even though it sounds like
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a fraternal organization, is really the destruction not only of the state
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of Israel, but of the Jewish people.
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Yusuf Qaradawi, the spiritual head of the Muslim Brotherhood, always preached
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that the true believer is obligated to complete the work of Hitler.
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So this is what the Qatari regime adheres to, and they're using-- They're, they're
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one of the wealthiest countries, if not the wealthiest country per capita in the
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world, and they're using their wealth as soft power to influence the West with
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this Muslim Brotherhood-inspired agenda.
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And our experts estimate that the Qataris are playing with a trillion dollars
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in assets to invest in the West, in the United States and other Western
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democratic countries, to influence us.
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So they're investing in higher education, in cultural institutions,
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in the media, public relations firms.
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So this-- And they're investing in often taking financial losses, but they're
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benefiting in terms of their soft power.
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And you think the Qatari government has been involved?
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There's a big American, uh, military base in Qatar.
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Presumably, according to the speculation, the Israeli government
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before October 7th was facilitating transferring Qatari money.
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They were presumably playing a positive role, both to-- a mixed role, but a
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positive role also, um, for the Israeli government and the American government.
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Do you consider the Qatari government a enemy of the West?
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I do.
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I think it's very important to understand the ideological
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worldview and the strategic goals that come out of this ideology.
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And I think very often in the West, we ignore ideology, and we're more
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focused on, I guess, the practical side of economic and political relations.
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So the Qataris are playing both sides of the aisle, as they say.
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And on the one hand, they've invested into the Israeli economy, into
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European and North American economies.
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They're close to the Trump administration.
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They're close to elements in the Democratic Party.
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And I think it's important for us to understand that, um, I consider them--
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You know, the Muslim Brotherhood ideology is definitely, in my view,
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an enemy of Western democratic values.
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They're clear that they want to destroy Israel and murder Jews.
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They believe in subjugating women, of murdering gay people, and
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destroying democratic society.
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They want to replace it with Islamic law.
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So-- And I think, in my humble opinion, that democracy is worth, uh, defending
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and protecting, and this is a regime that their ideology is contradictory
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and it opposes our democratic values.
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So say what you want about the politics of the Trump administration
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or the Netanyahu administration.
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There's some very smart people in these administrations and some very smart
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people on campus who are receiving this money gladly, this support.
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Do they not see what you see, or is the allure of money
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just completely overwhelming?
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So I think in some cases there is not awareness.
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Um, but as I said, money could be blinding.
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When I say we found $100 billion, I can give you, you know, just one example.
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We found $1.3 billion that the Qatari gave to Texas A&M, and Texas
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A&M had a campus in Qatar, in Doha.
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It's a place called Education City, where there's several American
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universities that have campuses there.
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And we fought for years to get access to the contract.
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We finally gained access to the contract, and we saw there were
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503 research projects that the Qataris funded at Texas A&M.
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We flagged 56 projects as having dual use for military purposes, and 13
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projects had dual use military research for nuclear, uh, military implications.
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We did two reports.
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After our second report, Texas A&M decided to close down their campus.
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And what we found in the contract is that Texas A&M gave all the
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intellectual property rights to the Qatari regime for this research.
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So this is very, you know, sensitive issues.
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The fact that there's research that's being shared with the Qatari regime
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that houses to this day the leadership of Hamas, that has good relations
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with the Taliban in Afghanistan and other nefarious actors in the region
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and globally should be alarming.
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And I, I believe it's incompatible with our political and our security needs
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in the West and in the United States.
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Is it primarily Qatar or only Qatar or, or are they joined by other forces?
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So I think Qatar is really the financial power in this sort of
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axis, you know, promoting this Muslim Brotherhood ideology.
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Um, Turkey has really become emerged as command and control,
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and London has become a center of laundering money for this axis.
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Aside from the obvious, when universities, uh, receive this kind-- these amounts-
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Yeah
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… of money that I guess is, uh, increasingly important to them, uh,
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do they get something else out of it?
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It, it-- What, what's in it for the universities?
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They're the bastion of Western civilization.
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They are.
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And, uh, so we found $10 billion, with a B, in undocumented money coming from
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the Qataris to Cornell University.
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They built a, a medical school in, in Qatar where about $8 billion of the
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$10 billion was invested, and about $2 billion went to their campus in, in
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New York State, in the United States.
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And I met with the vice president, one of the vice presidents of Cornell, and
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he said, "Yes, we took this money, and with this money, we're doing research
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in medicine and cancer research, and we're bringing democracy to the region,
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and this is a wonderful thing." But, you know, we also have to realize
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that soft power goes both ways.
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So for example, we have this small research center at Cambridge University,
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and our budget there is roughly… It's grown now to about $500,000 a year.
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And our center deals with antisemitism, and we have wonderful relations there.
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And I think it's clear that if the university insisted that they would
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hire a professor to be in our center that calls for the destruction of the
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State of Israel, we wouldn't accept it.
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We would walk away.
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And, you know, this investment of a half a million dollars is good for Cambridge,
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and it's wonderful for us, and it's a, it's a beneficial relationship,
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I hope, for both institutions.
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Could you imagine if I came with $1.3 billion or $10 billion to Cambridge,
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what influence I'd have there?
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It would be staggering.
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And what we are now seeing, there's a wonderful case that I think,
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uh, your viewers, your listeners should, uh, pay attention to.
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Carnegie Mellon has received a lot of money from Qatar.
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And thanks to the bravery of a young woman, her name is Yael Canaan,
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she's an American born to Israeli parents here in the United States.
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She went to Carnegie Mellon.
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She claims in her case that she was discriminated against because,
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you know, because of antisemitism, and she sued Carnegie Mellon.
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They offered her a, you know, out of court settlement.
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Her lawyers and her parents insisted that, you know, were telling her to take
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the settlement and get on with your life.
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She refused.
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She brought the case to discovery.
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She's now received discovery, and we will see now the unraveling
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of this Qatari masquerade, if you will, in, in, in higher education.
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We now know, for example, that the provost at Carnegie Mellon,
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thanks to Yael Canaan's bravery, was paid directly by the Qataris.
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So her-- The salary of the pr- provost was paid in full by the Qatari regime.
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The influence in the internal workings of Carnegie Mellon and other universities,
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I think, will increasingly become apparent in the coming months and years
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Are the universities tr- even trying to hide it?
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I mean, you, you said you spoke with, uh, somebody from- From Cornell
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from-
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Yeah … from Cornell.
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Y- And, uh, and they didn't, they didn't deny it.
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They said, "Yeah, we took the money. We're doing good with it."
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D- Are the universities a- adopting basically that approach, or are
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they trying to hide something?
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They're definitely trying to hide things, and we're calling for transparency,
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and there's one of the policies that we're trying to change and we're pushing
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is called the Deterrent Act, which will have more stringent oversight in
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foreign investment in higher education.
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And we're just calling for transparency.
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It's time for the universities to, to, to be above board, to share the contractual
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ar- arrangements that they're making with foreign countries and, and to be open.
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You think they're not open, some of them- No … aren't open because they
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haven't been challenged on it, or they don't think it's good PR for them?
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They haven't been challenged.
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So according to American law, any donation of $250,000 or over has
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to be reported to the government.
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Any contract agreement that, that universities have with foreign
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entities should be reported to the government and should be, you
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know, accessible to the public.
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The law is not being adhered to, and the law hasn't been enforced.
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Is it making a difference?
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Can you document-- Uh, I mean, the whole, the whole reason for exercising
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soft power and financial influence is eventually to produce better outcomes
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from the perspective of the funder.
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Can you attribute some of what happened on university campuses
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after October 7th to this?
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So in one of our reports, we, we show that American universities receiving
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funding from the Qataris have 300% more instances of antisemitism
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compared to American universities that are not taking foreign funding.
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So there is some correlation.
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And I think if we also take a step back, the fact that anti-American,
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antisemitic entities have been funding American universities now
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for about 40 years, it has an impact.
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The fact that, you know, young progressive Americans on October the 8th, after,
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you know, attending some of the finest universities in our country, in Canada,
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in, in Western Europe, in the Oxbridges, in the Sorbonnes, in the Ivy Leagues,
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that after October the 8th, where there's a pogrom that has been carried out in
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the most brutal fashion, and that this has been carried out by an entity that
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is not only antisemitic or anti-Zionist or anti-Israel, but they believe in
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subjugating women, of murdering gay people, and destroying democracy, that
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young progressive kids can come out of the classrooms of these finest institutions
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and protest in support of this not only barbarism, but this anti-democratic,
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sexist, homophobic social movement.
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And this, to me, points to decades of foreign funding from these entities
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and its influence, the discourse in the classroom to the encampment,
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to into our society, into our streets, and into our institutions.
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Did it surprise you what we saw on campus?
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I mean, they were already instigating against, uh, Israel before the sun set on
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October 7th, even before Israel responded.
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I understand the casualty count, and one can always, of course, uh, debate
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strategy, military strategy, and so forth.
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But much of this, uh, animus was already unleashed before Israel
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even had a chance to respond.
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Did that surprise you?
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So I've been dealing with these issues that, you know, we started
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ISGAP in 2003, and I was alarmed at the rise of antisemitism in scholarly
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discourse for, for many years.
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And I think we've seen the, the increase of antisemitism.
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I understood that it was going to increase, and I-- from a scholarly
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perspective, I was analyzing this, and I understood there was gonna be an increase.
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But I think what surprised me and what was incorrect in our assessment is that the
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antisemitism was growing exponentially.
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It wasn't a linear increase, but it was an exponential increase.
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And I think it goes back to the scholarly discourse that has, you know, entered
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into the academy in the 1980s and '90s and now, you know, in its second
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generation, in which Israel and Zionism and the Jewish people have been demonized.
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And in a very intellectual environment, this demonization
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is normalized, and it becomes, I would say, even morally required.
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We're at the point where the anti-Zionism is morally required because if Israel is
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an apartheid, racist, colonial occupying entity, and this is what Edward Said and
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the Columbia University from Middle East studies to the social sciences have been
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inculcating students for decades, you know, the logical extension of this is
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that i-if it's true, then we are-- from a liberal human rights perspective, we
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become morally required to dismantle it, and anybody who defends it becomes an
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enemy of anything that is good and decent
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So that's with respect to the faculty.
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Uh, the administration and the presidents, many of them are Jewish, um, and, you
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know, they don't have that philosophy.
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W- why did they allow this to happen?
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Was it, was it cowardice?
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Was it some implicit sympathy with, uh, you know, the
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anti-Israel, uh, perspective?
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Was it money?
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Was it… You know, presidents have-- I guess they consider one of their
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central responsibilities to preserve the reputation and the good name of
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the university itself, and to continue to raise money for the university.
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Were they fearful about damage to that?
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What was going on there?
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I think that's, you know, it's maybe like peeling an onion.
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That's one part of it, the financial, political considerations.
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But I think also if we go back and, you know, Edward Said famously
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said in 1983 in New York City at Columbia University that he was the
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last remaining Jewish intellectual.
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And he said that Jewish scholars have become sort of, he said it, "fat
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scribes in the suburbs," and that he was the last Jewish intellectual,
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and that he was the inheritor of the Frankfurt School of thought.
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The Frankfurt School of thought was an important philosophical movement
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created mainly by Jewish Holocaust survivors, who in the aftermath of
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the Shoah were trying to grapple with antisemitism, totalitarianism.
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They were trying to kind of unpack what had just transpired in Europe.
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And Said said that he's the last remaining Jewish intellectual, that
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the Jews were not worthy of this, and that the Palestinians were Jews,
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and the Israelis were the Nazis.
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And when he said this in 1983, people thought he had a bad day or
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he was disconnected from reality.
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But this tragically became the, the discourse at the best universities in
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the Western world, and this is where future professors, journalists, leaders
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of industry have been inculcated.
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And I think that the mistake we made was that, you know, our liberalism,
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our bigness was to say that, you know, Edward Said and all these people have
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different opinions, and this is what a liberal education ought to be about,
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that all kinds of opinions and views should be heard and critiqued, and
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students should be, you know, should hear all of this and, and learn how to
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discern what's correct or incorrect.
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But I think this normalized A, a form of Jew-hatred that is inherently genocidal.
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It's inherently genocidal.
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Antisemitism is a hatred that is, uh, unlike other forms of hate, which as,
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as destructive as they may be, there's something about antisemitism, according
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to the scholars of antisemitism, um, that is inherently genocidal.
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And I think we've entered into this phase where, you know, Jewish
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self-determination, Zionism, our connection to our land, um, has
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become perceived in academia as a, as a serious, uh, problem, as a form
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of occupation, of white supremacy.
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You know, Jews in the sort of postmodern intellectual environment
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have been labeled and defined as white supremacists and apartheid supporters.
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So the, the, the intellectuals in Europe in the 1800s and 1900s were defining Jews
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as not white, and that we were poisoning the purity of the white Aryan race.
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These ideas came out of the best universities in Central Europe and
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was normalized in, in, in society, and those ideas led to, in many ways,
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racist antisemitism and the Shoah.
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Several generations later, the intellectuals are saying that we're
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white, but it's not that we're white, welcome to the club, and we're so
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sorry for what happened to you.
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But now we, we, we've become, you know, white and apartheid supporters and racist
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in less than two generations, and then once again being defined by our enemies,
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labeled by our enemies as, um, something evil, something opposed to human rights
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and equality and, and citizenship.
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How do we counter this?
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Uh, first of all , Jews have a 2,000-year tradition of high intellectualism and
26:55
logic and reason, and I still believe that most Americans are good people
27:02
and are patriotic and believe in the West, believe in the United States.
27:08
What is the way to counter this, and why aren't we doing a better job?
27:11
I also agree that the, there's good in the United States, and I think, uh, the
27:15
United States is a very powerful, strong democracy, and I believe it will stand,
27:20
and people will begin to understand the threat that, as Elie Wiesel always taught
27:24
us, that antisemitism may begin with the Jews, but it doesn't end with the Jews.
27:28
And this is an early warning system, in a way, of this anti-democratic
27:32
movement that's attacking our democratic institutions and way of life.
27:37
Um, I think transparency, understanding the sort of global insurgency, if you
27:42
will, of the, of radical Islam and the radical left, and increasingly,
27:47
unfortunately, the radical right attacking the democratic center.
27:51
Um, I think raising awareness, uh, among policymakers, among
27:56
scholars is very important.
27:58
And I also think, you know, what you're doing is amazing, in my humble opinion.
28:02
Your message within the community is vital, that I think, um, the
28:09
normalization of antisemitism, the most pernicious form of hatred i- is,
28:14
in a sense, when it's internalized.
28:16
And I think what you're doing is beginning to give the space for Jewish people in
28:21
the United States to have their own voice.
28:23
The protests of the first year seems, seem to have died down to a dramatic degree.
28:31
Do you think that means anything, or are there just more stringent oversight
28:36
on the part of administrations?
28:38
It's good, um, but I'm, I'm-- I don't wanna sound too negative, but I'm quite
28:44
alarmed about the normalization of antisemitism, and that if, if Israel
28:49
is an occupying apartheid racist state.
28:54
If countries like Britain and Canada and, and other democratic countries are
29:00
now beginning to have sanctions against Israel, um, and are sort of perceived
29:06
as standing against Israel in some ways, this is also empowering the extreme
29:13
left and extreme Islamists in a sense.
29:15
And I think we're in a situation where the normalization of antisemitism
29:20
in scholarly discourse is pervasive.
29:23
It's entering into our politics and into our, you know, kind of cultural
29:29
dimensions, if you will, and it's also increasingly on the streets.
29:32
The violence, the normalization of violence is alarming.
29:38
It's good that the protests are dying down, but I think there's been such a
29:41
shift on this eighth front since October the 7th, 2023, that, um, there's a,
29:48
there's a str- I think a structural shift that our community needs to become
29:52
aware of, and I think our, our leaders need to be aware of, that this is
29:55
really a thr- a threat to our democracy.
29:58
Do you think that that structural shift has begun to happen yet or not yet?
30:04
I think it's happening, yeah.
30:06
I think we're living in a time… I don't wanna get too esoteric or
30:10
too scholarly, but one of the works that we've done is this looking at
30:13
the crisis of modernity There's a global crisis, a global economic,
30:18
social, cultural, political crisis.
30:20
The cr- the world order that emerged after the Second World War is weakening.
30:26
States are failing.
30:27
There's a migration crisis.
30:29
This migration crisis is putting pressure on North America, Europe,
30:35
sort of the core developed countries.
30:38
Our institutions are, are becoming weak, and in this crisis of modernity,
30:43
if you will, I think antisemitism becomes the early warning system
30:47
of these deep changes, and I think these changes are with us and,
30:52
um, are threatening our stability.
30:55
We have a lot of, uh, Jewish parents who watch and listen to the podcast.
31:00
It's noticeable.
31:01
I don't know how, how, how broad or widespread this phenomenon is, but,
31:06
uh, we've noticed it even here in our synagogue that some of the, uh, high
31:10
school seniors who would have otherwise applied and been accepted to the Ivy
31:17
League schools prefer to go elsewhere.
31:19
They prefer to go, uh, where they perceive the universities are more
31:24
sympathetic to Jewish life on campus.
31:28
Parents are very involved in that.
31:30
If you've seen that, do you think that's a real phenomenon, and
31:35
would you encourage Jewish parents to continue to look at that?
31:39
So it's definitely a phenomenon.
31:41
I just spoke to a rabbi at Yale University a few days ago, and
31:45
I was shocked at how, um, Jewish enrollment has dropped over the years.
31:50
Do we insist on sending our kids to top universities even though
31:54
they're hostile, or do we find other institutions that are more welcoming?
31:57
I think that we should as a community, um, not tolerate this form of hatred.
32:06
I don't think anybody in our community would say to an African American
32:10
family, you know, "Go send your child to a good school that's racist and
32:14
that they're gonna be protesting against his or her presence."
32:18
We wouldn't wish that on our, on our African American brothers and sisters.
32:22
Why would we tolerate it for our own children?
32:25
So I would argue that there are great universities, um, in the United
32:30
States that are welcoming to not only the Jewish community, but different
32:35
political and ideological perspectives.
32:38
They, they're pushing for, uh, diversity in thought, and they-- not only
32:42
diversity in their ethnic composition of, of their faculty and students,
32:46
but they're welcoming of ideas and debate, and they're teaching young
32:50
people, you know, critical thinking.
32:53
And I think those are the institutions that will emerge and gain strength.
32:57
And I think we should embrace the shift and empower the institutions
33:00
that are dealing with the challenges of our, of our time.
33:03
Do you think that the Trump administration has overreached in its
33:09
efforts to try and, uh, address the problem of anti-Semitism on campus?
33:15
Or do you think it's, it's about right?
33:19
And even if they have overreached, do you think that some of the changes that
33:23
have occurred on universities would have happened on their own, or it was only
33:27
the result of administration pressure?
33:30
Look, uh, there's many issues of the Trump administration that I don't
33:34
agree with, but I think on this issue, I, I agree strongly with it.
33:38
I, I, I'm, I'm happy to say.
33:41
The amazing thing about the United States of America, there's a civil rights
33:44
act and a civil rights legislation.
33:46
It's illegal in this country to discriminate against groups of people.
33:51
If we found out that there was a construction company in Mississippi
33:55
or in Alabama that didn't hire African Americans, we would be outraged.
34:00
We wouldn't tolerate the Trump administration giving those
34:03
companies contracts to do business because they're violating the law.
34:08
If universities have problems of anti-Semitism on their campus,
34:14
they're violating civil rights laws.
34:16
It's against the law for the federal government to fund private
34:20
or public entities that are dis- discriminating against groups of
34:23
people, in this case, Jewish people.
34:26
And I think that if there were problems of racism or sexism that were so
34:30
apparent where women or, or African Americans couldn't walk across campus
34:36
safely, they couldn't go to their classes safely, it would be outrageous.
34:42
And I, I, so I, I applaud the Trump administration.
34:44
I don't think we should be able-- we should ever tolerate this intolerance
34:48
anywhere in society, but especially in higher education of all places
34:54
Do you think that, uh, to the extent that universities have tightened up
34:58
their systems and that the situation is better on campus now than two years
35:02
ago, do you think that would've happened on its own or do you think that is
35:06
the result of administration pressure?
35:08
No, I think it's definitely in part, uh, of, as a result of the
35:12
administration having hearings and, and, and opening investigations.
35:18
You know, the famous hearing that I-- got billions of views around the
35:21
world where the university presidents were not only incapable of speaking
35:27
clearly against antisemitism, but they were reflecting the zeitgeist of these
35:33
institutions where speaking out against antisemitism was perceived as a problem.
35:39
Because if the Jews are white, if we support the occupation of an
35:44
apartheid Ziono genocidal entity, we are the enemy of all that is good
35:50
and decent in, in these university liberals, you know, postmodern spaces.
35:55
So I think the fact that the university presidents couldn't articulate, um,
36:00
strongly against antisemitism was indicative of a problem, and I think
36:04
these hearings shining light on this problem has started to help the problem.
36:11
Even in the United Kingdom where we have the center, I think the levels
36:16
of antisemitism have become so outrageous that, um There's, there's
36:23
more awareness, you know, places like Cambridge, for example, that I don't
36:27
think would ever have been supportive of, um, a research center dealing
36:31
with contemporary antisemitism.
36:33
There's all sorts of allies kind of emerging, kind of supporting the work
36:37
that we're doing because people are beginning to realize some good and decent
36:41
people after October the 7th, that things have just gone a little bit too far.
36:46
So I think the Trump administration has been really good on these issues, and
36:50
it's also sent a signal internationally that we need, we need to address this.
36:56
It's not just a parochial problem for the Jews or for the Zionists or for the
37:00
Israelis, but this hatred is really a problem for society and a problem for
37:05
institutions that are, you know, the raison d'être, their, their mission is
37:11
open and fair inquiry and inclusiveness, that this is really a threat to, to
37:16
basic liberal democratic education.
37:19
My last question to you, Dr. Small, is so, uh, you have a, uh, Jewish student
37:25
who arrives on campus, and w- what do you-- From a Jewish perspective,
37:31
what do you recommend that they should pay attention to beyond, of
37:35
course, their studies and so on?
37:36
What, from a Jewish perspective, should they be looking out for,
37:39
and how should they respond when they see inappropriate behavior?
37:44
So first of all, I think it's so important for young Jewish people and students
37:50
to really spend some time acquainting themselves, learning, delving into this,
37:56
this amazing wisdom that we, we have as a people, and to do it with a sense
38:03
of humility, not sort of nationalism and z- you know, jingoism, but really
38:07
with a sense of humility, and to learn the wisdom that we, that we have.
38:12
That's number one.
38:13
And spend time learning.
38:15
Uh, sit with a rabbi, sit with your colleagues, and explore it.
38:18
It-- Once you get into it, it's an extraordinary
38:21
universe of ideas and thought.
38:23
Number two, yes, as a good liberal critical thinker, we cannot tolerate
38:29
hatred of any kind against any group of people, against African Americans, against
38:33
women, against gay people, and ourselves.
38:37
And I think when we see hatred or, or disrespect of any kind, in the best
38:44
of our tradition, we pursue justice and we speak and never to be silent.
38:49
And I'm sure in, even in the most difficult of times and the most difficult
38:54
campuses, there are incredible allies.
38:58
Take a step back, find some friends, find some professors, find your
39:02
rabbi, and work with friends and colleagues, but take a stand.
39:07
And by taking a stand and going through this process, it's
39:11
actually quite empowering.
39:14
Cowering and sitting, you know, sitting alone and, and, and not standing
39:17
up is demoralizing and weakening.
39:21
Stand up and, and go into this process of activism, and it will be empowering
39:27
Yeah, I completely agree.
39:30
Uh, by repairing, uh, the institution, you find that you're in the
39:36
process of self-repair as well.
39:38
Absolutely.
39:39
Yeah.
39:40
Yeah.
39:40
And I'll, I'll just share just, you know, I've been involved in fighting
39:43
antisemitism and other forms of violation of human rights, and, and people often
39:48
ask me like, "How do you do it?" And it's in a one-- at one level, it's the most
39:53
rewarding and empowering part of my life.
39:55
I meet incredible people.
39:57
I listen to incredible ideas.
39:59
And you're right, the struggle against antisemitism is also not
40:04
only repir- repairing for me, but I think, I don't know, empowering.
40:08
I learn.
40:09
And we have no choice.
40:10
We have to stand up.
40:13
Dr. Small, what an inspiration you are, and, uh, the work
40:17
that you're doing is critical.
40:18
Thank you on behalf of the Jewish community, and keep,
40:22
keep doing what you're doing.
40:23
You're kind, and really, your voice is so important in, in the community.
40:27
And, uh, I'll just end with one statement.
40:30
What you're doing is so essential, and I remember in the struggle for Soviet
40:34
Jews, rabbis played such a key role.
40:38
The voice of the rabbis in our community at that time was essential, and I think
40:43
what you're doing reminds me of that time, and I hope more of the rabbis
40:47
join your wisdom and your voice and really will empower the community.
40:51
It's so essential what you're doing.
40:53
You're the, you're the foundation of our community.
40:56
Thank you so much.
40:57
Coming from you, that's high praise and high honor.
41:00
Dr. Charles Small is performing an extraordinarily important task, not
41:05
only for the Jewish community, but for the United States and the West.
41:09
He has investigated and exposed the colossal sums, hundreds of billions
41:14
of dollars pouring into universities and key cultural institutions by
41:19
those who seek to undermine the pillars of Western civilization.
41:23
His investigations are thoroughly researched, supported by
41:26
evidence, and true to his vocation, academically rigorous.
41:32
Jewish sages teach, "Fire does not ignite in a lone stick of wood, but in
41:37
a pile of kindling." American campuses have been drying up for a long time,
41:43
the tinder piling up year after year.
41:46
Their purpose to be the gathering point of a great society's
41:49
exploration of knowledge and truth has been compromised and undermined.
41:54
Our liberal heritage withers.
41:57
Simplistic binary categorizations of entire groups of people prevail over
42:02
intellectual and communal pluralism.
42:05
Oppressors and oppressed, racists and anti-racists, colonialists and
42:10
anti-colonialists, whiteness and color, privilege and repression The
42:15
verdant vitality of the American campus is undergoing a kind of climate
42:19
change that, if not reversed, will result in a catastrophic collapse
42:24
of the ecosystems that feed vigor and vitality into the American soil.
42:30
Some saw the early signs and warned we must change our ways.
42:36
They cautioned that the environment was becoming toxic.
42:40
But how do you persuade people of the coming climate catastrophe if
42:44
the changes are slow and incremental?
42:46
It just gets a little warmer, a little drier, a little harsher every year, and
42:51
not necessarily even in my neighborhood.
42:55
But at some point, even a random spark will set the kindling ablaze.
43:00
Today's wildfires are the result of years of neglect.
43:04
As Hemingway described going bankrupt, gradually, then suddenly.
43:10
It is late, but it is not too late to reverse this campus climate catastrophe.
43:17
It goes much deeper than this or that president of a university, this or that
43:21
board of governors or administration, which is why even brilliant university
43:27
leaders have had such difficulties explaining their positions, let alone
43:32
instilling a climate of learning, diversity, respect, and tolerance, values
43:37
that they say they and their institutions are committed to, and without which none
43:43
of their other objectives can be achieved.
43:47
As is so often the case, the leaders of these institutions seem to have a kind
43:51
of blind spot when it comes to the Jews.
43:55
Of course, free speech issues are relevant.
43:57
American Jews have always been at the forefront of the cause of free speech.
44:03
We still are.
44:05
American freedoms protect all of us, including Jews.
44:09
But can you imagine what would happen to students were they to
44:12
chant anti-Black slogans, anti-Asian, anti-gay slogans on campus?
44:17
Why was go back to Poland tolerated at Columbia?
44:21
And by the way, what they mean by go back to Poland is not the modern country
44:25
that is a member of the European Union.
44:27
They mean Auschwitz.
44:29
A student who even whispered to an African-American student go back to Africa
44:34
would explode in the minds of university administrators with perfect clarity.
44:39
They would not complicate us with it depends on the context excuses.
44:44
The uneven and inconsistent application of their own rules is a window into the
44:49
mindset of university administrators, DEI functionaries, and faculty members.
44:55
My message to the Jewish community and all Americans of good faith, we
45:00
need to fight back as hard as we can.
45:04
Every little action helps.
45:06
Letters to administrators, pressure on radical faculty, withholding
45:10
alumni contributions, pursuing legal remedies to enforce the rights of
45:14
our children to a safe environment.
45:17
Be active.
45:18
These are critical years.
45:20
And support organizations like ISCAP that are exposing what is really going on.
45:26
Until next time, this is In These Times.