Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #31 Jesus, Pigs, and the Madman

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#31 Jesus, Pigs, and the Madman · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

0:15
SPEAKER_00: Previously on the Deep Grace Diving Podcast with Tim Wright and Terry Summers and
0:20
SPEAKER_00: John D.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: Burgess,
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Jesus invites his disciples into a boat to head to the other side of the Sea of Galilee,
0:28
SPEAKER_00: meaning to the wrong side,
0:30
SPEAKER_00: the enemy territory,
0:31
SPEAKER_00: to the place of the Gentiles.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: And on the way they received their first warning that this is a bad idea.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: They get caught up in a storm in primeval chaos and Jesus stops the storm.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: So now they land on the other side and it's going to get worse.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Hey, we're glad to have you with us.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm Tim Wright here with John Burgess today.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Terry's taking a little bit of time off.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, John, I don't want to make a big deal of this.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: I know you were going to make a big deal of it.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: It's my birthday today.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
1:05
SPEAKER_00: 67.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for mentioning that to everybody.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: You can make special donations to Community of Grace Lutheran Church, Peoria, Arizona.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, 67 today.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm still 66 and whatever it is, 50 weeks.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:25
SPEAKER_01: I feel like in honor of your birthday at 67,
1:29
SPEAKER_01: I should probably read the scripture so that you don't have to get out your reading glasses.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, they're already on.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: But this is a long passage.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: It might wear an old man out like me.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: So last week we did look at Mark chapter 4, the end, where Jesus is in the boat.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: They're headed to the Gentile side of the Sea of Galilee, and they hit this storm.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: And then as they get off the boat, we find something really interesting.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: So it's a little longer story, 20 verses.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: John, New Living Translation once again?
1:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, New Living Translation.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: All right, take it away.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: It's the title is Jesus heals a demon possessed man So they arrived at the other
2:11
SPEAKER_01: side of the lake in the region of Gerasenes When Jesus climbed out of the boat a
2:18
SPEAKER_01: man possessed by an evil spirit came out from the tombs to meet him the man lived
2:24
SPEAKER_01: in the burial caves and could no longer be restrained even with a chain and
2:29
SPEAKER_01: Whenever he was put into chains and shackles,
2:31
SPEAKER_01: as he often was,
2:33
SPEAKER_01: he snapped the chains from his wrists and smashed the shackles.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: No one was strong enough to subdue him.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: Day and night he wandered among the burial caves and in the hills,
2:43
SPEAKER_01: howling and cutting himself with sharp stones.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: When Jesus was still some distance away, the man saw him, ran to him, bowed low before him.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: With a shriek he screamed,
2:56
SPEAKER_01: Why are you interfering with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?
3:00
SPEAKER_01: In the name of God, I beg you, don't torture me.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: For Jesus had already said to the spirit, Come out of the man, you evil spirit.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: And then Jesus demanded, What is your name?
3:11
SPEAKER_01: And he replied, My name is Legion, because there are many of us inside this man.
3:17
SPEAKER_01: And then the evil spirits begged him again and again not to send them to some distant place.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: There happened to be a large herd of pigs feeding on the hillside nearby.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Send us into those pigs, the spirits begged.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Let us enter them.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: So Jesus gave them permission.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: The evil spirits came out of the man and entered the pigs and the entire herd of
3:39
SPEAKER_01: about 2000 pigs plunged down the steep hillside into the lake and drowned in the water.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: The herdsmen fled to the nearby town and the surrounding countryside, spreading the news as they ran.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: People rushed out to see what had happened.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: The crowd soon gathered around Jesus,
3:57
SPEAKER_01: and they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: He was sitting there fully clothed and perfectly sane, and they were all afraid.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: And then those who had seen what happened told the others about the demon-possessed man and the pigs.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: And the crowd began pleading with Jesus to go away and leave them alone.
4:18
SPEAKER_01: As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon possessed begged to go with him.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: But Jesus said,
4:24
SPEAKER_01: no,
4:25
SPEAKER_01: go home and tell your family and tell them everything the Lord has done for you and
4:29
SPEAKER_01: how merciful he's been.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: So the man started off to visit the 10 towns of that region and began to proclaim
4:36
SPEAKER_01: the great things Jesus had done for him.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: And everyone was amazed at what he told them.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: I think Tim, uh, Tim is, uh, momentarily.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I was muted.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: By the beauty of my reading.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: So, and I just said something brilliant and it was muted and it's gone now because I'm an old man.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: Can't remember things.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, this is, so this story does tie into the last story.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Um,
5:09
SPEAKER_00: because now they've gone to the other side and they have just overcome this
5:12
SPEAKER_00: primeval chaos in the water.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: And now they come face to face with, with, um,
5:18
SPEAKER_00: evil, with madness, in the form of a human being.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: It would be probably helpful at this point just to step back a little bit and
5:27
SPEAKER_00: remind ourselves that these stories are 2,000 years old.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: These stories take place in a very different world with a very different worldview
5:37
SPEAKER_00: than we have in the 21st century.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: And to remember that these stories are called Gospels.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: which means they are not only stories, historic stories, but they're told theologically.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: And so in the telling of the story,
5:57
SPEAKER_00: they're using some theological prompts,
6:00
SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
6:02
SPEAKER_00: to help us understand who Jesus is.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: That was kind of what we talked about last week.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: When Jesus is in the boat, essentially saying to his disciples, don't you get yet who I am?
6:11
SPEAKER_00: And each story is meant to tell them who he is.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: In the story of the...
6:17
SPEAKER_00: the crossing of the storm-tossed sea, it shows him to be the God over nature.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: And now we're going to see who Jesus is showing his power over this madman.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: So some people tend to get stuck on demons and legions.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: They get a little bit stuck on the pigs.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: And then they get stuck if they hear guys like me say,
6:47
SPEAKER_00: maybe these are theological points being made to give us insights into Jesus,
6:53
SPEAKER_00: not necessarily historic,
6:55
SPEAKER_00: and then people start to get nervous and say,
6:57
SPEAKER_00: well,
6:57
SPEAKER_00: is this not a true story or not?
6:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes,
6:59
SPEAKER_00: it is a true story,
7:01
SPEAKER_00: but they are telling the story from a perspective,
7:04
SPEAKER_00: and they want us to understand some things about Jesus.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: So we're going to walk through it to get a sense of what's going on here.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: The whole point of the story is who is Jesus?
7:14
SPEAKER_00: That's the point of this story.
7:17
SPEAKER_00: And so we've seen in the last story,
7:19
SPEAKER_00: he is the one who speaks peace to chaos,
7:24
SPEAKER_00: just as God did in Genesis 1,
7:26
SPEAKER_00: verses 1 and 2.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: And now we're going to see another story of who Jesus is in a Gentile land.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: So, regardless of where we are with demon possession,
7:41
SPEAKER_00: This man, at the very least, has an anger problem.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: This man is probably, for lack of psychological terms, a madman.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: He is out of control.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: He is really out of his mind.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't even know who he is.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: So whether that's demons or just something mental going on in him,
8:08
SPEAKER_00: and we can say it's evil because that's not how he was created to be.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: He is a damaged man in some way, shape or form.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: And he is living among the place of the dead.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: So, and I think Mark, yes, he's living among the tombs.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: So this is a guy who is completely isolated from all of humanity.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: He's living among the dead.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: And so in some ways,
8:40
SPEAKER_00: one way to look at this story is that this man,
8:43
SPEAKER_00: even though he's breathing,
8:44
SPEAKER_00: he's dead.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: The image of God in him has been so damaged that he's living among...
8:52
SPEAKER_00: the dead among the tombs um people can't restrain him people are afraid of him
8:58
SPEAKER_00: that's not what it means to be a human being so he is in a sense he is less than
9:04
SPEAKER_00: human in this or he's been dehumanized to use the phrase you used last week um he's
9:10
SPEAKER_00: got this supernatural strength they they can put him in shackles he breaks him in
9:14
SPEAKER_00: pieces you sort of think of uh superman being put in cuffs and bink they just uh
9:20
SPEAKER_00: Now,
9:20
SPEAKER_00: of course,
9:20
SPEAKER_00: you have to ask the question,
9:22
SPEAKER_00: who had the courage to go and put those shackles on that guy to begin with?
9:26
SPEAKER_00: And did they get out alive?
9:30
SPEAKER_00: So they have just the disciples now.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: Imagine the disciples.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: They have just had this pants-wetting moment of facing chaos,
9:40
SPEAKER_00: facing the primeval depths of monsters in the water.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: And now they get off the boat.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: They think maybe things are okay.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: And then this madman comes screaming at them.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: And so again, put yourself in the place of the disciples.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: They've just been out of one traumatic experience and now they've got another.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: And at least arguable here, Tim, or possible that Jesus was going to the other side of the lake for rest.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: And so the whole thing with the storm happens while he's
10:12
SPEAKER_01: He is resting on the boat, but certainly the disciples have to be exhausted.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: And they're maybe going to the other side of their lake to get some rest away from
10:20
SPEAKER_01: the crowds on that side.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: And then as soon as they get to this side of the lake,
10:24
SPEAKER_01: after having worked through the fierce storm,
10:26
SPEAKER_01: then they're presented with this.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm going to suggest a little later on that Jesus does have a purpose for going there.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: But in the minds of the disciples, you're right.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: It could very well be that in their minds,
10:42
SPEAKER_00: they're thinking,
10:42
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
10:42
SPEAKER_00: we're just going to get away for a while.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: We're going to take a break.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Jesus has an ulterior motive and he wants his disciples to see it because again,
10:51
SPEAKER_00: he's revealing who he is in this story.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: Now, as I said before,
10:58
SPEAKER_00: The disciples are sort of the foils in the story always.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: They don't get it.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: Everybody else gets it.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: They don't get it.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: So they see Jesus stop the storm and they're afraid and they say,
11:06
SPEAKER_00: who is this guy that he can calm the storm?
11:11
SPEAKER_00: But what does this madman say that at the moment he sees Jesus?
11:17
SPEAKER_00: He said, Jesus, son of the most high God.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: He's never even met Jesus before, and he knows who Jesus is.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: The disciples are still kind of clueless,
11:27
SPEAKER_00: and this madman seems to know who Jesus is and understands the potential threat.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: And you would say, well, why would he see it as a threat?
11:41
SPEAKER_00: What kind of madman wants to stay mad?
11:44
SPEAKER_00: But sometimes people get so caught up in the life that they have lived that
11:51
SPEAKER_00: that it's far more frightening to be freed from it with all these new possibilities
11:57
SPEAKER_00: than it is just to live with what they're used to.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to pick on smokers,
12:04
SPEAKER_00: for example,
12:05
SPEAKER_00: but smokers all know they're going to be a whole lot healthier if they quit smoking,
12:08
SPEAKER_00: but that's probably more frightening to them than the idea of quitting smoking.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or anybody who's sort of facing down a monumental life change.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: There's pain involved in that change no matter what.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: Now,
12:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to belittle what's happening in the story as,
12:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:24
SPEAKER_01: that's certainly some significant change there.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: But any sort of change involves pain and introspection, let's say.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: So when he's talking to this man, he says, what's your name?
12:37
SPEAKER_00: He says, we're legion for we are many.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: And legion is a reference to Roman...
12:42
SPEAKER_00: the Roman army.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: So remember now, I said that when these stories are written, they're written theologically as well.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: So they're saying some things theologically.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: So what you have is a Roman legion inside of this man.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: They are the oppressors in Israel.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: And Jesus...
13:10
SPEAKER_00: is going to show power over this Roman legion.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: And he's gonna set this man free from whatever it is that's oppressing him.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: And certainly the Jewish people who are with him are thinking,
13:25
SPEAKER_00: wow,
13:27
SPEAKER_00: maybe he is the one who's going to liberate us from Roman power.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: Now we're gonna find out he does, but in a different way.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: But so when we've got the word legion, that's an intentional literary device to remind us
13:40
SPEAKER_00: that,
13:41
SPEAKER_00: first of all,
13:42
SPEAKER_00: they're in a pagan setting,
13:43
SPEAKER_00: a non-Jewish setting,
13:44
SPEAKER_00: and that they're all living under the oppression of Rome,
13:48
SPEAKER_00: and Jesus is going to speak to that oppression.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: Now, Tim, do I care at this point who's actually talking?
13:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
13:57
SPEAKER_01: is this him talking,
13:59
SPEAKER_01: or this legion of spirits inside him talking,
14:02
SPEAKER_01: or what do I need to do with that?
14:08
SPEAKER_00: I would say for purposes of storytelling,
14:10
SPEAKER_00: we don't really need to care whether he's got a legion of demons in him or this is
14:16
SPEAKER_00: his own mind thinking this.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: This man is oppressed.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: This man is under mental delusion.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: He is under madness, whatever it is.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: This man is being oppressed by something that is not of God.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: and is put in the terms of the Roman oppressors.
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SPEAKER_00: So there's a message being sent here.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he could have just said, my name is Sid, and I've got 10,000 demons in me.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: But the storyteller puts Legion in there so that immediately people are thinking of this Roman battalion.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: these Roman soldiers,
14:58
SPEAKER_00: these Roman troops who are living inside of this man and oppressing him,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: just as the people of Israel are living under the oppression of Roman rule.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And so they're helping us understand what oppression really means.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: It's not an exact comparison, but there's some pain involved there.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: And the writer is helping us understand that pain.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and part of what Jesus is coming to do is to set the oppressed free.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: We know that.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's people who are oppressed by leprosy,
15:28
SPEAKER_00: oppressed by sickness,
15:29
SPEAKER_00: oppressed by Rome,
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Jesus has come to set the oppressed free.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: And that includes, by the way, non-Jewish people, a Gentile man.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: This is unprecedented.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: You know,
15:47
SPEAKER_00: even though the Jews were called to be a blessing to everyone,
15:51
SPEAKER_00: by the time we get to Jesus,
15:52
SPEAKER_00: they kind of pretty much put a protective shell around themselves.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: And again,
15:57
SPEAKER_00: you get too close to Gentiles,
15:58
SPEAKER_00: especially a madman or a demon,
16:01
SPEAKER_00: you sort of make yourself ceremonially unclean.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: And yet Jesus goes out of his way to do that, to set this oppressed man free.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Now, whatever it is that's in him,
16:18
SPEAKER_00: says, hey, don't throw us away.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: Just send us over to those pigs over there.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: Now, again, let's remember the theological context here.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: Pigs, for the Jews, were unclean animals.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: They didn't eat pigs.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: They didn't raise pigs.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: They were unclean.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: In the story of the prodigal son, what's one of the big indicators that this guy's really lost?
16:46
SPEAKER_00: He's feeding pigs.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: Jews would never feed pigs.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: So we've got this herd of pigs.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: And for some people who lived on that side, pigs were seen as sacred animals.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: Seen as gods, for lack of a better word.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: So something theological happens here.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: Jesus sends whatever that unclean thing is that's oppressing this man,
17:19
SPEAKER_00: he sends the Romans into pigs and shows power not only over this Roman legion and
17:27
SPEAKER_00: this man,
17:28
SPEAKER_00: not only power over oppression,
17:31
SPEAKER_00: but he also shows power over the sacred animals of the pagans.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: and says, I'm stronger than your sacred pigs.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: So again, it's not just a historic story.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: There are
17:50
SPEAKER_00: Literary devices being used here to say something about who Jesus is and what Jesus is up to.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: These words like legion and swine and pigs and herds and going over.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: And what happens to the pigs?
18:03
SPEAKER_00: They go into that sea that the disciples have just been saved from and they drown in the abyss.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: They drown in all of that chaos.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: So what this story is showing us is that Jesus has power to free the oppressed and
18:19
SPEAKER_00: He has power over the gods or the divinities of the people in the pagan lands.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: And he is living out the name that this legion called him, Son of the Most High God.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: And he's demonstrating that he has that kind of power.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: So again, the details are important, but we need to understand them sort of theologically.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: um, that legion represents Rome.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: The people of Israel are oppressed by Rome.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: And when Jesus cast this legion out of this man, it shows hope.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: It gives hope to the people of Israel that,
18:58
SPEAKER_00: that Jesus can free them from their oppression as well under Rome.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Although he does it through a cross, not through violence.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
19:05
SPEAKER_00: he shows his power over these swine to say to these pagan folks on the other side
19:09
SPEAKER_00: of the sea of Galilee,
19:11
SPEAKER_00: someone greater than your divinity is here.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: And I've come to set you free.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Um,
19:19
SPEAKER_00: So those are the things that are going on that we miss if we try to take just a
19:23
SPEAKER_00: strictly historic reading of the story.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: Did the story happen?
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: But there are literary devices used here because it wants to tell us something
19:32
SPEAKER_00: about who Jesus is and what he's up to here in this story.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: And the lesson of perspective, again, for me, right?
19:39
SPEAKER_01: Because I get to the end of, send us into those pigs, the spirits begged, let us enter them.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: And a big part of me just wants Jesus to say, you know what, I'm not taking requests.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, you're just going to go away, right?
19:54
SPEAKER_01: But then...
19:56
SPEAKER_01: It also reminds me that this is my reading in 2024.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: And over 2000 years ago,
20:03
SPEAKER_01: there's some depth here that would have been easier for listeners to catch on to
20:07
SPEAKER_01: than it is for me in 2024.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: And that just plain requires a little bit of work on my part.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: And part of it is we want to read these things like newspaper accounts.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: These are not newspaper accounts.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: These are...
20:24
SPEAKER_00: spiritualized theological stories that use events and then wrap them in symbolism
20:31
SPEAKER_00: and in language to say that something deeper is going on here.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: So let's imagine for a moment that Jesus gets off the boat,
20:39
SPEAKER_00: this madman runs to him,
20:42
SPEAKER_00: and Jesus speaks to the man.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: Whatever he says,
20:46
SPEAKER_00: he just says,
20:47
SPEAKER_00: whatever it is that's oppressing you,
20:48
SPEAKER_00: go into those pigs,
20:50
SPEAKER_00: and they jump over into the water.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, you miss some of the storytelling power by doing it that quickly.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: So they're adding in these things.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's legion.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Hey, that represents Rome.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, these are pigs.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: They're unclean animals.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: And the fact that they ask Jesus to do something and he shows power over them...
21:17
SPEAKER_00: and then sends them into these unclean pigs, uh, which is where the oppressed belong.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: They belong in unclean animals, um, or in meaning, uh, ceremonially unclean.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then they need to be drowned in the deep abyss to never harm people again.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: Um,
21:37
SPEAKER_00: And so part of the reason why the people are afraid is not only because they saw
21:42
SPEAKER_00: these pigs rush out of the water,
21:43
SPEAKER_00: and not only because they saw this madman healed,
21:46
SPEAKER_00: which would have been for them as striking as,
21:49
SPEAKER_00: there's a storm,
21:50
SPEAKER_00: let's put it this way,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: there's a storm in that man's soul.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: And Jesus speaks to it and says, peace be still.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: Just as he spoke to the storm in the last chapter, which is as stunning as,
22:04
SPEAKER_00: to the pagans as was for the disciples when they were in the boat in the midst of the storm.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: But they're also terrified because he had such power over their sacred animals.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: And they don't know what to do with that.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: And so where the disciples were terrified at the power of Jesus speaking to a storm,
22:25
SPEAKER_00: these people are terrified of Jesus because of his power over oppression,
22:31
SPEAKER_00: his power over their gods.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: And they're seeing something here that they can't get their brains around and
22:40
SPEAKER_00: terror and fear is a natural response to that.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: And,
22:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:46
SPEAKER_01: I've,
22:46
SPEAKER_01: I've,
22:47
SPEAKER_01: I've been fortunate enough to study this provision before and study Mark before and
22:51
SPEAKER_01: even study it in a context where you were helping a few of us study it.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: Um,
22:56
SPEAKER_01: and it always is interesting to me that in a provision where there's real depth in
23:01
SPEAKER_01: Jesus showing us who he is by showing people in the story who he has dominion and
23:08
SPEAKER_01: power over.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: And in the midst of that, um, sort of, um,
23:14
SPEAKER_01: indescribable amount of dominion and power, he does acquiesce to the request.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: And it seems like that is a further indication of the God that we love, and the God that loves us.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I do think that part of the request, so to speak, is meant to be a power
23:44
SPEAKER_00: that recognizes there's a power greater than itself.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: And so this power knows they're acquiescing already to the power of Jesus.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: And so whether these demons actually ask to be thrown into the pigs or not is not the point.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: The point is that this power recognizes that Jesus has more power than it has.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: And it's begging for its life, so to speak.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: yeah um that's so that's very clear yeah that's very clear right in this provision
24:16
SPEAKER_01: as we as uh naturally as humans try to figure that out and you know wrapping your
24:21
SPEAKER_01: brain around this is not uh insignificant for sure and your heart but but legion is
24:27
SPEAKER_01: very clear from the very beginning who this is yeah yes that's right that's right
24:35
SPEAKER_00: and
24:36
SPEAKER_00: The point of the story,
24:37
SPEAKER_00: though,
24:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
24:38
SPEAKER_00: all of this is really interesting,
24:39
SPEAKER_00: and it says a lot about who Jesus is.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: He can free us from the oppression.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: He's got power over any other things that we think are sacred.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: But the point is, and this is to what you brought up earlier, why did they come across?
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Jesus, it appears that Jesus made this journey for one reason.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: And that was to set this oppressed man free.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: He made that trip across the water.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: He encountered that man and he came there for one reason and that was to set that man free.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: That's how important the individual is to Jesus.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: So how do we know that?
25:23
SPEAKER_00: Why would we surmise that?
25:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, we know it because after he was done, he left.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: Now they asked him to leave, but he left.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: And for the first time in the Gospel of Mark, what normally happens when Jesus heals people?
25:36
SPEAKER_00: What does he tell them to do?
25:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he tells them not to tell people.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: In this story, what does he say?
25:44
SPEAKER_01: He says, go home to your family and tell them everything.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: Blab about it.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: So what's different?
25:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, he's over in a pagan part of the world where they're...
25:58
SPEAKER_00: where their expectations of the Messiah are very different than what the Jews would have.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: They may not even have an expectation of a Messiah over in the pagan land.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: The Jews,
26:08
SPEAKER_00: Jesus sort of has to orchestrate his coming out because his understanding of what
26:16
SPEAKER_00: it means to be a Messiah is so radically different from that of the Jews.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't have to worry about that over on the pagan side.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: So he wants the word spread.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: And part of the reason why I say Jesus came for that one man is because this man,
26:32
SPEAKER_00: it says he spread the message throughout the Decapolis.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: There were these 10 cities on that side.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: We know that when Jesus comes back, there's a receptive audience.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: And that audience is receptive because this man told his story.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: And they wanted to hear what Jesus had to say.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: So could it be that Jesus went all the way over there to rescue that one man so
27:02
SPEAKER_00: that that man could tell the story and then more people would come and hear what
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Jesus had to say?
27:09
SPEAKER_00: So it speaks, first of all, to who Jesus is.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: Of course, he's got the power over anything that oppresses us.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: He's got power to free us from anything that becomes a God to us.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: And he comes to us, each of us.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: And he knows each of us by name.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: He knows what we need.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: As we talked last week, sometimes it seems like he's deaf to us, but here we see that he acts.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: And it also tells us how profound our own stories can be.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to telling the Jesus story, we don't have to get up with a Bible and start
27:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why we always say preaching is such a bad thing.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: I've made my living preaching for 41 years, but we don't have to preach it people.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: But if we tell our story in appropriate places,
28:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:08
SPEAKER_00: I once was lost and then this is what helped me,
28:12
SPEAKER_00: or I was this.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: And I just found that somebody introduced me to Jesus and it changed my life.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: And you, you can always argue theology and,
28:23
SPEAKER_00: But you can't argue a person's story.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: This is my story.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: This is what happened for me.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: I just want to share with you what happened.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: And you can take it or leave it.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: But it's my story.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: And this is why Jesus is important to me because of what he's done in my life.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: And so thinking about those stories...
28:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:44
SPEAKER_01: as I read through this with my 2024 mentality,
28:47
SPEAKER_01: the couple of things I have questions about one is,
28:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
28:51
SPEAKER_01: I guess I'm no huge lover of pigs,
28:54
SPEAKER_01: um,
28:54
SPEAKER_01: bacon,
28:55
SPEAKER_01: bacon,
28:55
SPEAKER_01: I guess I like bacon.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: But 2000 seems excessive.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: I could not get away with 20.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: That's,
29:02
SPEAKER_01: but then I think the bigger thing is,
29:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:04
SPEAKER_01: my friend who happens to be named John would probably say to me,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: um,
29:11
SPEAKER_01: where are all the people in 2024 who are suffering um with with their own legion
29:17
SPEAKER_01: and then where is jesus in providing the sort of instant relief what appears to be
29:25
SPEAKER_01: instant relief um as soon as he shows up anyway for those people that are suffering
29:31
SPEAKER_01: and and how do i
29:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, is it just because in 2024 we just don't see this kind of suffering?
29:38
SPEAKER_01: Or is the type of suffering sort of insignificant compared to what happens when Jesus shows up?
29:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's always the million-dollar question.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Another way of saying it is if God's a loving God, why do people suffer?
29:58
SPEAKER_00: But there are a couple answers to that.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: One is...
30:03
SPEAKER_00: And this is hard sometimes, especially... Go ahead.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: One is, Tim, that we have a great podcast on the question of suffering and God's love.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: Yes, go back in the archives, and you'll find it.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that's really hard for us as people of faith is a lot of
30:22
SPEAKER_00: times you hear,
30:23
SPEAKER_00: God is in control.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: God is in control.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: God is in control.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: That's not...
30:29
SPEAKER_00: quite the biblical story.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: It's not that God is out of control,
30:35
SPEAKER_00: but it is true that God has created human beings to live,
30:41
SPEAKER_00: and human beings make certain choices,
30:44
SPEAKER_00: and sometimes those choices hurt other people.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: It's not God who's causing that, it's human beings who cause that.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: Again, to use an obvious example,
30:55
SPEAKER_00: God didn't cause the guy in the bar to drink until he's so drunk that he gets in
30:59
SPEAKER_00: his car and kills somebody on the road.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: That wasn't God.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: That was that guy's drinking problem,
31:05
SPEAKER_00: and that's a greater societal problem that allows that kind of behavior.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: Racism.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: That's not God's fault.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: That's hatred in the hearts of human beings.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: Poverty.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: That's not God's fault.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: That's people hoarding in a world of abundance.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: So when we look at a lot of what's happening in the world around us,
31:33
SPEAKER_00: we blame God for those things rather than as human beings taking responsibility for
31:39
SPEAKER_00: them and saying,
31:39
SPEAKER_00: what are we going to do to make it different?
31:43
SPEAKER_00: And that leads me to the second point.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: I think where Jesus shows up now is through his people.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: I think where Jesus shows up is through anybody,
31:52
SPEAKER_00: whether they believe in Jesus or not,
31:53
SPEAKER_00: who are doing compassionate,
31:54
SPEAKER_00: healing things in the world,
31:56
SPEAKER_00: trying to fix broken things.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: That's how the world, that's how God responds in the world.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: That's not to say that sometimes there aren't surprises where,
32:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:06
SPEAKER_00: you go to the doctor one week and your body's filled with cancer and someone prays
32:10
SPEAKER_00: for you the next week,
32:11
SPEAKER_00: you go and the cancer's all gone.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't happen most of the time.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: What happens most of the time is that people go through a process with caring
32:19
SPEAKER_00: nurses and compassionate doctors to try to navigate that and manage the best they can.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: And what faith does is it gives us hope.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: It gives us community, gives us purpose.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: It knows that we're loved in the midst of it.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: It knows that God has not abandoned us.
32:35
SPEAKER_00: So this is where it gets really complicated for us as believers.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: We always want things really black and white, neat and tidy.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: But if we're a people of the cross, there is nothing neat and tidy about a cross.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: God hung on a cross.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: We've got to get our brains around that.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: That's where the sacred meets human beings, is on a cross.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: And so what are the implications of that?
33:05
SPEAKER_00: That God was the victim of Roman oppression.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: That God was the victim of political power.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: all of that stuff that we experience in real life, God experienced.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: And so what that does is it sort of blows our minds and then it leaves guys like us
33:27
SPEAKER_00: and people listening sort of saying,
33:28
SPEAKER_00: well,
33:28
SPEAKER_00: okay,
33:29
SPEAKER_00: but still,
33:29
SPEAKER_00: still,
33:32
SPEAKER_00: why are you asleep in the boat?
33:34
SPEAKER_00: Or still, why I've got a legion in me, why don't you take it out?
33:39
SPEAKER_00: And again, what holds us is
33:44
SPEAKER_00: that God loves us and that's always the starting point and can change the way we look at life.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: These aren't easy answers and we're not trying to dodge them,
33:52
SPEAKER_00: but we are trying to give some perspective from some of the stuff that makes it harder.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
33:59
SPEAKER_00: if God is in control,
34:02
SPEAKER_00: I think that makes life a lot harder to navigate than if God is a God who created
34:08
SPEAKER_00: human beings to live life
34:10
SPEAKER_00: And that we,
34:12
SPEAKER_00: as creating the image of God,
34:14
SPEAKER_00: have responsibility to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: And when we don't love our neighbors as we love ourselves,
34:21
SPEAKER_00: this is when the world becomes chaotic and hurtful and broken.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
34:27
SPEAKER_01: and for those of us that have someone in our lives that loves us and tells us that
34:32
SPEAKER_01: they love us,
34:33
SPEAKER_01: that's a big deal.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: And it also is complex.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: It's very complex.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: More than a 32 minute podcast.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: So just encourage folks to listen and be open and continue to kind of struggle on
34:49
SPEAKER_01: the path a little bit and then tune in the next time and we'll work on something
34:53
SPEAKER_01: else together.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: So for today, the take home is Jesus sees you.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: Jesus knows you.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: Jesus loves you.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: And he has not abandoned you.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: John, thanks for your time.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: course and encourage you if you if this is helpful for you please share it if it's
35:14
SPEAKER_00: not helpful for you uh please share it and so everybody have a good week and did i
35:20
SPEAKER_00: mention it's my birthday today i think you did john a few times yes thank you thank
35:25
SPEAKER_00: you you know and i don't like that kind of attention anyway so i understand so
35:30
SPEAKER_00: worst code spelling out grace you are loved