Latest / Career Identity + Growth Conversations for Professional Women: Exposing the Hidden Reality / 051: Resume Writing for Career Reinvention: Show Your Value, Not Just Your Job History

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051: Resume Writing for Career Reinvention: Show Your Value, Not Just Your Job History · Career Identity + Growth Conversations for Professional Women: Exposing the Hidden Reality

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about and sitting with our conversation from
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: last week about career reinvention, and that prompted me to
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: think we should maybe talk about resumes because I know
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: that's right up your alley, so you probably have a
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: whole lot of really good insight to share with us.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I love it. I'm happy to share everything that I
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: know and offer as much value as I can. And
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: before we do that, I would like to remind everybody
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: to please subscribe and follow, you know, depending on what
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: platform you're listening on, because that's the best way to
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: stay up in the know with these conversations.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: So I don't think I've updated my resume in ten years.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, First, let me tell you are not alone. There
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: are many many people that have not updated their resume
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: in a while a they have it needed to be
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: either not sure what to do or see there's this
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: level of fear of doing it wrong. So which by
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: do you think you up too? All the Okay, so
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: you're just like all of the above, I'll take.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: It, yeah, exactly. I think one of the problems I
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: have is, Okay, the last time I focused on my resume,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I was told we only need to provide ten years
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: of information.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: If that is true.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Still, ten years of information is like this ten year
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: hiatus that I've been on my AT in my IT journey, Right,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: So how do I talk about all of the work
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: that I've been doing and running my own business? That's
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: part of it. The other part of it is then
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: how do I talk about my IT career of thirty
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: years before I started doing this? So where do you
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: want to start? All? Right?
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: So I want to tie back because you reference what
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: we talked about last week in episode zero five zero,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: and that was pivoting and doing something new, doing something different,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: maybe stepping out of the constraints of our previous career
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: or our first career or our second career, whichever one
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: it is for us. And what we got to at
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: the end, which I love this point, is what are
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: you moving towards? So a pivot is not just running
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: away from something else that's unpleasant, although that might be
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: a factor influencing it, but it's really discovering what's next
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: for you and then doing everything purposefully to move towards that.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: I like to think of your resume as an extension
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: of that. In reference to your questions of I've been
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: doing something for ten years that is different than what
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: I did for the thirty years prior. I want you
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: to think about the word relevance. So whatever it is
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: that you're moving towards next, what about your work history
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: is relevant to that new thing? And then making the
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: resume or having the resume tell your story of relevance,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: of value, of impact. And that's what I think people
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: are getting wrong. So if somebody's in the same boat
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: as you or as me, really we've been doing something
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: different for a while, we don't know what to do,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: and there's a little bit of fear that I'm going
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: to screw it up. And then can I please throw
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: in that there's all these AI powered tools that claim
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: to give you this knockout resume in like thirty seconds
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: or less. So there's lots of information that's out there,
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: and what you really need is time to work on
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: what am I doing, what's relevant, and what's next, so
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: that I can frame my experience with the relevance.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when I think about my own resume,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: I mean what I do now is I coach leaders
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: to become more congruent with who they are and how
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: they lead. I have to look at my IT career
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: and all of the work that I did there, because
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: that's where my experience of being a leader, of leading others,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: of understanding when I'm out of congruence and what happens,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: and the real world experience of leading as a woman
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: in a field that's primary really male dominated. Yeah, so
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: if I don't talk about my IT background, then it's like,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: well where do you Where does your experience of what's
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: happening in the workplace really come from?
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: I agree, So experience is important. And also, this is
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: not your so ten years for you, Okay, this is
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: not your twenty sixteen resume, right, this is something new.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: This is a different look and feel because I bet
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: your twenty sixteen resume looked a lot like your two
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: thousand resume. Possibly even looked a lot like your two
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: thousand and three resume.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Well not quite exactly, but yes, very similar, Yes.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Very similar. So when we were coming up in corporate America,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: the rule wise, when you needed a new resume, what
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: did you do? What was the process that you followed
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: when you needed a new new resume?
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: I talked about my job, the position, the years that
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: I was in it. I talked about my significant accomplishments
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: in those roles, okay, and then I talked about you know,
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: there was probably four pages of like all the technology
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: stuff that I knew, all the technologies I worked on,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: which I would not list today clearly because it's not
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: relevant to what I do, and because I think it
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: also dates.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: I think this is a very good point. Previous resume versions,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: yours mine, probably a lot of people listening was grab
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: the last version of your resume, go in reverse chronological order,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: slap your new job on top of the list. Yes, yep,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: Go look at your job description that you were promoted into,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: you know, three years ago, and then update the list
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: of tasks studies. Maybe there's some bullet points. Maybe there's
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: this honkin' list of tech the tech stack that you know,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: maybe certifications are new. Maybe you included some relevant training,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: and then you saved it and you sent it off
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: to whoever it asked for it.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Right, if you were in consulting like I was for
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: a long time, you wanted it to be as thick
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: as possible so that it would create heft when it
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: landed on the client's desk. Boom.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that in no way is that like a poom
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: a book made exactly. Okay, so yes, I agree with you,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: the half to the multiple pages, the more information is better. Yeah,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: that's out. But what what is that document saying about you?
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: What story are you telling? Do you want to tell
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: the consultant I'm your tech application expert? Or do you
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: want it to tell a story of leadership, maybe even
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: leadership without authority or without a time? What's the story
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: you need to tell? And if I can clue you
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: in to the secret to that part, the story comes
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: from the job that you're applying to, right, Yes, I
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: always say that the job description that you see out
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: on LinkedIn or indeed or the latters, that is your
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: hiring manager's wish list. They have put so much time
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: looking for this unicorn, right, so that is what they're
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: they're writing about. They're writing about this unicorn could be Sandra,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: it could be a net, could be anybody that is listening.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: What are those ideal qualities? What experience do I want
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: them to have? What accomplishments or impact have they already
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: had in this industry? And then I want to know
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: that I will get a phone call off this document.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: So another myth I think we should just bust, right,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: now is that the resume is not going to get
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: you the job. The resume gets you the call, which
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: gets you the interview. And then that's whole nother thing,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: is you know that we can talk about later.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's our next episode.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Maybe it is, And let me take you all the
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: way back to like episode forty three or forty four,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: when we started to talk about the stories we believe
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: about ourselves, the stories other people tell about ourselves or
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: a yeah, yes, keep going. But this document, your resume,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: gets to be the story that you tell about yourself
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: through the lens of the job that you're applying for.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: And you can completely control this narrative. And that's why
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: it's so powerful. And the most fun I have is
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: when a client of mind sees their resume. Of course
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: it's a collaborative process when I work on it with them,
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: but they see it and somehow they've never seen themselves
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: like that before. So it really can be a transformational
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: story that you work on, and I think it's one
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: of those steps that really helps you get your confidence back,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: especially if you're coming from a toxic work environment or
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: a tragically unenlightened boss. This process of seeing yourself as
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: an impactful person as somebody that has done all of
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: these wonderful things really lifts people's spirits and then sends
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: them into the job market with a little little more
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: twinkle in their eye or springing their stuff. Pretty it's
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: pretty amazy. I know, I kind of just saw a
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: tinker bell in my mind's eye flooding across the way
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: going to the zoom interview. Let's come back to that.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: So with the resume, do we still list positions in
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: chronological order? Do we provide highlights up at the top
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: that says here's what I am. That answers the questions
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: specific to the resume, like what's the.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Structure of it? Look like? Oh gosh, there are so
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: many structures. I could talk for days about that. The
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: structure that you want to choose should support your story.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: For example, let's take a very easy to define structure.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: A recent graduate is probably going to have their education
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: at the top of their resume, and somebody that is
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: more tenured, more experienced, that has graduated over five years ago,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: their experience is going to go above their education. So
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: for those of us that are tenured, our education will
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: go at the bottom of the resume. If you've graduated
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: more than five years ago. I'm putting your education at
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: the bottom of your resume because it's not the story.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Right when you're a new grad your experience comes from
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: your education, it's not coming from ten plus years in it.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: What is most relevant? Again, where that gosh dar and
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: relevance word goes at the top, then you want to
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: highlight those key accomplishments. So you could put certain highlights
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: or a certain accomplishments, or a certain key phrases at
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: the top. But I don't want you to get hung
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: up on the format. The format is something that can
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: easily be answered when we're looking at what you're trying
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: to accomplish, what you're trying to do with this resume.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: What I often recommend is that people start with a
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: brain dump. I feel like I'm recommending brain dumps all
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: the time. Do you brain dump at all?
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: I often do brain dumps. A lot of my brain
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: dumps involve writing down all might to dos that are
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: sitting in my head. I think one of the values
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: that comes from doing this work that you're talking about
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: building your resume, and also work that I know you
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: do talk about, which we're not talking about today which
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: is writing your performance review right your selfievow. I think
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: one of the values that can come from that is,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: oh I forgot about that. Oh I forgot about this
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: other thing. Oh I forgot that I did that right,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: So yeah, doing that brain dump is huge, It is
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: so huge.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: And you know, I'm also a huge advocate for career management, yes,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: over only thinking about your career when it's time to
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: transition or pivot or get out. And so if you've
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: been working diligently on your career management and tracking your
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: accomplishments at the bare minimum every week, but at the
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: end of every day, your future you will appreciate if
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: you take five minutes and say, what went well for
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: me today, What was my role in that thing going well?
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: And what's the measurable impact of that. If you've been
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: doing that, you don't need to brain dump, right because
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: you could go back to your journal or your Google
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: doc or wherever you're storing that, that daily debrief, and
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: you can pull it out and say, here's some awesome
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: things I did. If you don't have that, you could
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: go back to your last performance review when I got
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: evaluated in January or June, what did that look like?
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: What did it say I was very good at And
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: then if not, if you don't have that, you go
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: back to your brain downp and say, what are the
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: key projects? What are the things I worked on? What
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: was my major task? How was I measured? How did
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: I measure up against that measurement? And answering all those
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: questions can really help you. And then when you're putting
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: it into whatever format you select, yes, I love reverse
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: chroniccological order the best and putting it all in there.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Then you'll slowly build out this document. But don't get
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: yourself hampered down or weighted down by your current resume.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: When you start a resume, I just start with like
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: a regular old online document. If you even start your
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: note app on your phone, don't let yourself be limited
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: by the format.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: This automatically brings me into thinking about tools.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Like linked in.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: What I wanted to ask was in linked in? You
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: must go in chronological order, or if you want to
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: list your employer on your history, So how do we
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: reconcile a resume that lists certain things? And then somebody
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: goes out onto LinkedIn sees some additional stuff that maybe
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: didn't make the resume or dates you Yes.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: One of the first things that I recommend you do, Sandra,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: is your LinkedIn experience section has to match with the
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: professional experience you put in your resume. And so we're
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: going to get lots of nasaers right now. But I
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: have like sixteen versions of my resume, right I have
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: this version, well does this for me? And this version
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: that does that, and I can't only have one LinkedIn.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Then you're not giving a very congruent message, and the recruiter,
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: the hiring manager is not going to know what to
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: do with you. They're going to say, why is linked
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: in showing this version of Sandra? And why does this
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: resume show this other version of Sandra? Which one's true?
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Is she lying? And then once you get a little
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: out of doubt going in the recruiter of the hiring
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: manager's mind, you go to the virtual no pile and
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: that's when you get the automatic We've moved on with
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: other candidates in your inbox. The experience section has to
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: be pretty much a one on one match. The dates
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: need to match, the titles need to be matched. Also,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: your education is probably going to be a one on
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: one match. Everything else. You have a little bit of
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: liberty with right.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I was always told when
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: I was writing resumes, again, my information is dated since
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I haven't updated it in the last ten years. Well,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: one of the pieces that I was told was not
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: to list the dates of your education if you were
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: a person of a certain age, because that would date you. Right,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: So don't say you graduated from university in nineteen eighty
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: eight because you know that automatically makes you a certain age.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: What is your guidance now as it relates to.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Education, I agree that education if it's not very recent,
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: there is no point in putting the dates out there.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Recent grad just graduated in the last three or four
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: years put it on there. And that is probably where
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: that advice you got earlier in the conversation of only
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: including your experience for the last ten years is. It's
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: trying to help more experienced candidates balance their time on
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: title with what we know is going to come up
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: time and time and again, which is like that experience bias. Right,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, is this person quote unquote overqualified? Is this
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: person too expensive? Job? Going to bore them? All? Very
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: nice adjectives or ways to say I'm being agist without
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: saying I'm being agist. So when I can and I'm
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: working with someone, I try and advise on the places
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: where we can maybe not turn on the age light
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: instead of spotlight into something like your education is from
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: X y Z.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Would you list your education or would you just leave
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: it off?
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: I would list my education without my graduation years.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: And can you do that on LinkedIn?
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: I hot you really can?
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Oh you can? Okay.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: So my one major gripe with LinkedIn, and let's just
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: go for it right now. I'm just going to put
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: it out there is that as the development and the
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: technology of LinkedIn continues to ramp up an increase and
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: is so amazing, there are still sections of the LinkedIn
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: profile that scream two thousand and twelve and they haven't
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: updated how certain sections work. And so, for example, the
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: certifications is one of those. The certifications go in alphabetical
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: order unless you put a date, But then if you
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: put a date, you have to put the month and
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: the year. Otherwise the month defaults to January. And we
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: don't like this, LinkedIn. You need to fix it. Let's
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: make the dates optional except everywhere in the experience, because
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: again it's being used sort of as a quasi resume
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: filler in that particular instance.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Actually, this brings up another really good point for me
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: person I'm constantly doing additional training I have to in
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: order to keep my certifications active. Great, it just seems
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: like a lot of information to just keep putting out there.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Should I be putting all of these courses out there?
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Or should I be just making a blanket statement around
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: ongoing classes related to maintaining my Geshalt certification or my
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: coaching certification or my trauma informed lens.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, I love this question. So there's a couple of options.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: If you wanted to put them in your certifications and
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: keep only last year's continuing education credits in there, that
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: would be great. Or do you want to go into
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: your Geshalt certification and perhaps list it under there there's
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: a description box. Oh, so you could list maybe this
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: training COMMA August twenty twenty six, this training June twenty
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: twenty six, and you could keep a running list there.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Or is that something that should be a separate document
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: and you're asked to supply it? You certainly could. Those
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: questions are truly yours to answer. But if it feels
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: clogged or it feels like that section of your LinkedIn
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: profile is growing beyond adding value, then yes, I wouldn't
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: include it. Yeah, And there's some things that we get
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: trained on. I see this all the time on LinkedIn profiles.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: We get trained on something, probably through LinkedIn learning, which
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: is so valuable and really is what you needed in
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: the moment. But does it belong on your profile or
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: is it just for your personal and professional development? And
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: there's no need to put it there. I tend to
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: say the latter, And then you can put that in
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: your performance review so that your boss knows that you
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: took that class and that you worked on addressing this
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: thing for that project, again tying it to success. And
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: that's the last piece that I'm going to talk about
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: and then I'll I'll pass it over to you, Sandra.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: But when you're talking about yourself in your resume, I
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: really want people to think about measurable impact. What did
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: I do? What was the outcome? Did I save dollars?
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Did I save time? Did it save head count? Did
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: it prevent an error? Did you deliver some sort of
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: service recovery? Think about the impact and think about how
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: you would talk about that impact. Because putting your your
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: resume into an AI tool and say, help me say
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: this right is only going to go so far if
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: you don't give it the right reference or frame of
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: reference for it. It's just going to spit back out to you.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: A very nice way to say something that you put in.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: And everybody else's resume is looking like that right now.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Because we all have similar tools at our disposal. You
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: have to set yourself apart with numbers. Numbers really stop
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: the eye and say oooh ooh, that's different. That's information
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I should pay attention to.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: I remember, and I'm going to date myself a really
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: long time ago, back in the ninety Back in the nineties,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I remember reading a fantastic book that talked about doing
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: exactly what you suggested, and every resume I created after
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: reading that book contained that information. What was challenging was,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: of course, they looked at it from a salesperson, right
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: I increased revenue X amount. As an IT person, It's
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: hard to get those numbers right, but every time you
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: can get very specific on what you did. I found
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: it very helpful doing a project to convert again, I'm
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: going to date myself because this was a long time ago,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Windows ninety five to Windows NT. If there were only
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: ten desktops. That's a different scope of project than there
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: were twenty two thousand desktops that needed to be converted.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: And again this is again dating myself. We didn't have
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: automated tools like we do now to facilitate that distributions.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Creating the process around how are we going to do
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: this for twenty two thousand desktops is a different scope
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: of projects. So there's lots of ways to talk about
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: the work that you do and give scope to that
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: work without talking about strictly improvements or head counts, savings
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: or dollar values. What I think hiring managers really want
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: to see is are you someone who has the skills
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: to do what is being asked in this job? Can
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: you help me? Because fundamentally that's what the hiring manager
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: wants to do, is they want to bring somebody in
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: who's going to help them, not somebody who's going to
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: require a lot of handholding to do the scope of
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: work that's being requested. Yes.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I like to think of that as evidence
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: versus experience. If you've held a title for any amount
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: of time, even two or three years, you clearly have
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: the experience. But the hiring manager is looking for evidence.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Tell me answer this question for me so that I
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: even call you to begin with, and then know that
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: because you have it on your resume, you have to
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: prepare to talk about it in the intests. Which is
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: great and amazing, but that's why there's a flow, That's
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: why there's a process. When you're working on getting a
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: new job, you don't just hop into an interview without
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the prep work to set you up for it. You
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: can't even get an interview without establishing the first pieces
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: of the project. And then if you by chance end
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: up in an interview because you know your cousin's sister's
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: brother gets you an interview, your friend friend, yes, then
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: you know if you go in ill prepared or you
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: don't have the foundation set, the interview is going to
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: fall apart and you're not going to have success. This
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: is all leading to you being prepared and amazing with
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: your story. So think about that story. What is the
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: evidence of this experience? What shows clearly that I understand
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: scopes of project managing twenty two hundred desktops pieces of hardware? Right,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: you could formulate that that scope now on a resume
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: to show just the depth of experience that you have,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: and then somebody would say twenty two thousand, while that's big,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: use that. Or if you're dealing with a small boutique
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: company and they're like, oh, ten desktops, that's amazing, that's
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: double what we have here, and that's what we need.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Let's not do the little self comparison of I don't
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: have the experience that my friend Sandra has and talk
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: ourselves out of putting our numbers there because that is
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: your number, and so own it, be proud of it,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: and then jump off from there because guarantee there's somebody
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: looking for your level and scope of experience.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that you're mentioning that because we have a
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: comparison that we do all the time when we put
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: the number out there, right, I might say, oh, I
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: managed a ten million dollar budget. Well, if I work
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: at a large banking organization, ten million might not be
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of money, and they might look at that
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: and say, wow, that's really small. You apply to another
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: organization who might look at that and say, wow, our
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: largest project last year was only ten thousand dollars, and
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: that ten million dollar budget might make you too qualified
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: for the job. Yeah, right, And so I don't really
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: know what the hiring person's going to do with that information.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: I think what it does do is it says I
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: had accountability. I had to talk about where my budget
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: was going.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: I had to talk.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: About how I was spending that budget. I had to
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: show a return on investment. And those are the things
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: that we can talk about, not just putting that number
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: on a page.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Agreed, and so what was the process? What was that reconciliation?
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Could you talk about the budget timing, the budget process.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: If you see in the job description, then it's a
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: much smaller responsibility than when you held and you don't
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: want to look overqualified. Can you show a smaller scope
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: because it won't matter for that particular role that you
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: had a ten million dollar budget. Look at the job
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: description again. I really ask you to use that wish list.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: And when I look at a job description, I highlight it,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: I write all over it. I'm like totally into it
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: because it's the secret. It's the total secret that you're
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: customizing your resume to and it's not just keywords, and
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: it's not just passing through the ATS. ATS is the
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: applicant tracking system. You want to look at that document
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: as the answer. It holds the keys to the kingdom
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: of that job, and how can you answer and show
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: that you've made those keys before? You want it to
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: start with good evidence based data and then show your
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: impact and then boom, that gets you uploaded and gets
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: you called and somebody says, hey, Sandra, I'd like to
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: meet you. You have what we're looking for.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm thinking about is not
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: just what I write about myself, how to talk about
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: information that's clearly dated but was relevant at the time
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: that I did it. Back in the nineties. We didn't
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: talk about some of the things that I did. Talking
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: about them now feels really silly because everybody does that.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: At the time that I was doing it, it was new.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: So there might be some things that I would pull
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: out of my resume simply because somebody looking at it
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: today would say, yeah, that's kind of common places, like
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: dial tone. You expect to pick up the phone and
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: there to be dial tone. We don't talk about that anymore, Sandra,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: And you're right, I wouldn't put those things in my resume,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: which at some point says, well, that part of my
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: resume is kind of light. Then what do I want
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: to do with those lighter portions of my resume because
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: the technology.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Is just so dated. This takes me back to my
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: one company. I worked through the Microsoft Office to Google
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: workspace transition, and now people would probably laugh at that
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: if that was on my resume, and then you had
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: a good example, you know, Windows ninety five to Windows.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: NT or whatever it was, whatever it was gotten, No,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: I'd have to put back to my resume and look
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: at it.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: And there are some skills that are on there, like
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: people put Microsoft Office. Listen, that is the bare minimum
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: price of ticket to entry. Have to know Microsoft Office.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: You have to know how email works. You have to
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: know and not like application specifics anymore. People want to
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: know that you understand how to schedule an email, how
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: to work a calendar. Those used to be amazing impressive skills,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: and now it's like if you don't have that, we
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: don't need you.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: My fourth grader knows how to do that.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, seriously, right, my three year old can do it
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: on the phone. Thank you, Sandra. That is something that
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: doesn't belong on there. And here's what I'll say. If
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: it was part of your history or your work history,
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: that's great. Your resume is not a historical document. It
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: is a document of relevance and impact. So let me
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: just pull your right back to the beginning. Is it relevant?
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: If it is not relevant, then does it even belong
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: on your resume or are do you have it there
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: because it's a piece of your work history and maybe,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: like you and I were at a company for a
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: decent period of time, So do we just include those
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: titles to nod to say, hey, we were there for
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: a while, we worked our way up from here. Already
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: hear it, to hear it, to hear and then we
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: don't put a lot of details around it because they're
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: irrelevant at this point. And that's something that you can
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: make the decision with yourself, your career coach, a trusted
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: mentor somebody that's a hiring manager, and your organization and
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: can maybe give you advice. If you're looking for some
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: additional free resources, I encourage you to check with your
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: your alumni group from your college. They often have a
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: career center that has certified resume writers. And then you
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: can also check at your local library. I know in
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: our area we are so lucky and fortunate to have
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: the Cayhaga and the Cleveland Public Library systems and they
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: have great, great experts. If you are pressed for time
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: and or money and want to seek the council, those
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: are some really really good resources of people that can help.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: And then if you have the resources to work with
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: a coach or a certified resume writer, I say steal
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: that opportunity too, because they'll help you understand what story
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: you need to tell to secure the kind of job
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: you're looking for.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: I know that in it, we've gone the gamut from
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: when I was first you know, doing it. They wanted
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: you to have longevity at a company, and then if
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: you had longevity at a company, it was like you
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: don't have a breadth of experience because you didn't move
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: around enough. Moving around it became really important. And now
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: I feel like we're almost back to where's the happy
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: medium now? Is it showing progression through different companies and
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: having movement? Is it showing that you can stay at
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: an organization for a long period of time because those
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: represent different skills. The skill that's required to stay at
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: a company and work within that organization for a really
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: long time is different. Then I got fed up and
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: I left, and I went to another company, and I
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: moved around every eighteen months.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Right, I think, Actually, I know after the COVID nineteen pandemic,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: it seemed like all the rules were off. So what
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: is the reason that you made the jump? Can you
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: talk about that reasonably during an interview? And then can
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: you show that you moved for a progressing amount of responsibility,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: for a larger budget, for new skill development, mentorship opportunity,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: this company paid for my tuition reimbursement, whatever it is.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: And then own the story. What is the story? Own it,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: control it, take advantage of it, demonstrate how it's part
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: of your progression. I would say that the hiring managers,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: the recruiters are not making snap judgment of this person's
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: a job hopper. Remember that's what the worst thing right
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: in two thousand and five, Yeah, like that was like
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: being swore at. You're a job And now I would
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: expect nothing less of people to be a job hopper.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: And the other thing is that the corporations will force
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: you into becoming a job hopper because their roles are
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: evolving so differently. They're laying off people so quick. You're
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: not going to have any choice but to be a
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: job hopper. But can you show resilience? Can you show
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: how you turned that into a better, more expansive opportunity,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: more responsibility, more freedom. Right, maybe the story is I
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: took this job because I needed time home with my family. Okay, great,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: it worked for you. Do it.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: One of the things that you said that I really
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: liked was the resume is your entry point into an interview.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: The the hiring decision is not made through your resume.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: It's made through the interview. Having the resume the calling
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: card that says I'm worth speaking to, Right, is the
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: goal of the resume? That is? I really think that
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: that gets lost sometimes when people develop their resume. I
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: saw as a hiring manager, so many resumes that focused
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: on job duties, not on what was your impact in
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: that role.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: And those are the resumes that are going to look
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: like everybody else's. Those are the resumes that are just
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: blocks and blocks and blocks of tax with no numbers
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: to give me any kind of context. When you are
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: evaluating your resume, you're going to ask yourself is it correct? Right?
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: You don't want to put something on that resume that's
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: not going to be verified with a job employment screen
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: or a verification of your background. And then two, am
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: I showing the value I provide the impact the benefit
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: of working with me over someone else. And then three,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: is it strongly enough aligned with the ideal job or
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: the target job that you're going for, and can it
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: clearly be seen that you're a good person to call
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: and talk more about the fit.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: The last thing I think is really important to summarize
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: is that the hiring decision is made in the interview. Yes,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: you need to prep for that interview.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, definitely. And if you do good resume prep,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: interview prep is much much easier because there's nothing greater
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: than sitting in the virtual interview or sitting across the
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: table from someone and they say, tell me about a
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: time and you're like, oh, yes, let me take you
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: back to that time at this company where I was
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: this particular title and this is what happened, and then
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: telling them this is the situation, the task, the action,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: the results, this is the outcome, this is what I
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: learned from it, this is what I do differently now
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: because of learning that lesson, And this is how it
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: ties back to what you're trying to do here at
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: this organization. And if you start well with your resume,
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: it makes.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: That part so much so much easier, so much easier.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: This is hiring managers.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: We know the person that can talk to their resume
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: well in an interview, the person who presents well positioned resume.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: When you're sitting across from that person as the hiring manager,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: it's almost like a visible exhale.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Because it helps them imagine working with you. Yes, and
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: that's really what the interview is for. Can I work
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: with Sandra? Is she going to fit in with the team?
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Is she going to be a match for what we need?
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: And I think it's also and maybe we can talk
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: about interviewing next time. It's also a time for the
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: candidate to determine is this where I want to work?
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: It really is a dual interview. I agree with that wholeheartedly. So, Sandra,
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: as we're closing this piece of the conversation, I want
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: people to leave understanding that I am not telling you
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: to go fix your resume. I'm asking you. I'm inviting
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: you to review your resume and say what does it
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: currently say about me? And am I delivering the right
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: message there?
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: But you did tell me to go and fix my resume.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Oh well yeah, that's an invitation. Oh but I'm not
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: telling you like yo, listen to no Sandra, fix it
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: right now. I'm saying, let's evaluate what does it say
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: about you? So I have a little bit more of
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: an invitation for people today. If today's conversation has you
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: thinking differently about your resume or considering that you need
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: to think differently about your resume, and I want to
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: help you keep going, So join the Exposing the hen
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Reality email list at Exposingthehindreality dot com. When you do,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: you'll get access to some of my additional resume resources,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: and you'll also receive an invitation to join me on
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: August twenty fourth for a talk that I'm giving. It's
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: actually an interactive workshop called Rethink the Resume. Don't let
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Ai make You Average. I'm pretty excited about it.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Don't let Ai make you Average?
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: I love it. And then, of course this will help
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: you stay connected with us and the conversations that we're
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: having here each week. All right, Sandra, I'll see you
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: next week. Why