Latest / Inside The Criminal Mind / Behind the Mask of the I-5 Strangler: Decoding Serial Predator Motivations with Dr. Hickey

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Behind the Mask of the I-5 Strangler: Decoding Serial Predator Motivations with Dr. Hickey · Inside The Criminal Mind

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Inside the Criminal Mind podcast, where we analyze
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: some of the most notorious criminal cases with psychology and
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: criminology combined. Here's your host, doctor Carlos.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone, Doctor Hicky. I'm so excited this is
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: your second episode.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Hey, it's great to be here.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: I can't wait to see what you got in store
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: for us today. I know today we're heading over to California.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: The I five strangler Roger Kibbi Kibb, and I know
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons we're bringing him up is because
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  Speaker 2: he just recently was murdered himself.
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  Speaker 3: Correct, not to be confused with the I five killer,
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  Speaker 3: which is Randy Woodfield. A book written about him. I
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: interviewed Randy Woodfield up in Oregon several years ago. But
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  Speaker 3: this is the I five strangler, and they both have similarities.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Well they have well there's a little bit there. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: there's there's patterns, there's signatures.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, I can't wait.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, conversation, and I'll give people a little bit of
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: an insight of who the I five killer is.
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  Speaker 4: Here.
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  Speaker 2: Roger Kibby Steel, Yeah, and the I five strangler. He's
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: an American serial killer, folks and rapist. He was found
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: all could be found, all but one of his victims
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  Speaker 2: on the freeways around Sacramento, and I believe it was
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: the first one that wasn't on the freeway. On May tenth,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one, kid was said to twenty five years
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: to life imprisonment for the murder of Darcy Frankenpoll And
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: we'll talk a little bit more about her. We're going
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: to be talking about the different types of crimes. So
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: I guess ready to start here, Eric and doctor Hickey.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: Let's see where we go.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: So I want to go start off with his childhood
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: a little bit. That's where usually I like to start
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  Speaker 2: off with these criminals, with the serial killers. And he
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: claims that he was beaten by his mom when.
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: He was young. Then he goes into he was bullied.
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  Speaker 2: Do you know anything else about Roger Kivvy and what
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: do you say about those things?
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  Speaker 3: Well, we always go back to childhood because there's almost
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: always some form of childhood trauma that's occurred. And it's
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: interesting as we get a deeper dive into this case.
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  Speaker 3: He used a pair of scissors that were allegedly his
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: mother's scissors. He had a connection to that from his childhood,
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: and you know he would cut these odd patterns of
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: clothes on victim's clothing. This would be all related to
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: his religion with his mother. So clearly there was there
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: were things that imprinted upon his mind when he was
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  Speaker 3: younger that that that was part of that trauma. And
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  Speaker 3: so often we see these these offenders who are kind
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  Speaker 3: of re reenacting those experiences, acting out the trauma themselves,
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  Speaker 3: trying to resolve it, and and uh, and then they
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: sexualize it. So I suspect that Kibby, when he was younger,
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  Speaker 3: much younger, had been beaten, not spank and we're not
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: talking about spank, we're talking about beating where and it
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: probably wasn't just the actual beating, but it was also
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  Speaker 3: the degradation of the child, putting him down, making him
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  Speaker 3: feel unloved. I wanted, you know, sometimes parents can punish
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  Speaker 3: you for doing something wrong, but if there's no love
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  Speaker 3: involved in that punishment, then that can do some real damage.
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  Speaker 3: So I suspect he experienced some of those types of
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: things in childhood that really affected him his developmental process.
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  Speaker 2: That's a great point. It's interesting. I was reading something
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  Speaker 2: the other day about the importance of the mother, and
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: we don't know much about Kivvy way back.
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  Speaker 4: He was born in nineteen forty nine.
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  Speaker 2: But there's a lot of studies that the lack of
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  Speaker 2: engagement from the mother, and I'm talking about two years
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  Speaker 2: old or younger, the lack of connecting, being able to
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  Speaker 2: see if the child's under stress, not being able to
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  Speaker 2: soothe the child. A lot of these things start impacting
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  Speaker 2: the development of that child's brain.
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  Speaker 4: And if you add use to it, if you had maybe.
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  Speaker 2: Neglect, dismissal, if the child doesn't learn how to regulate
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  Speaker 2: their emotions, all those are going to have an impact.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm talking to as you mentioned, we're talking way
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  Speaker 2: at the other end of the spectrum. This isn't simply
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  Speaker 2: just what the child cries or ignored, wants to go
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  Speaker 2: back to it later.
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  Speaker 4: This is actually when the.
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  Speaker 2: Child keeps crying, maybe you yell at them, maybe you
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  Speaker 2: hit them, you do all kinds of things that can
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  Speaker 2: really distort their sense of reality.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely, and so the child does not attach effectively to
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  Speaker 3: the parent, and without the attachment, that emotional health, the attachment,
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  Speaker 3: then the child can go a variety of different directions,
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  Speaker 3: and boys when they have to have those type of experiences,
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  Speaker 3: tend to go in a different direction than do females
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  Speaker 3: because of socialization. So it's really unfortunate that I suspect
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  Speaker 3: that he did not have a product proper attachment without
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  Speaker 3: the attachment, and they lack victim empathy, compassion, and so
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  Speaker 3: there are things that drives him then, like shame and anger,
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  Speaker 3: and then that turns into revenge down the road. And
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  Speaker 3: I think because I think, I think Kippy was born
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  Speaker 3: in thirty nine, because I think it was eighty one
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  Speaker 3: when he died. Oh maybe yeah, because he was eighty
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  Speaker 3: one when he died.
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  Speaker 4: So that error on the reporting over there.
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  Speaker 3: It's easy, you know, I mean, you know that seemed
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  Speaker 3: like a lot long time ago, but you know thirty
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  Speaker 3: nine was that was right around that was when when
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  Speaker 3: the war started, a secondmore war, and he was born.
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  Speaker 3: So uh, we don't know a lot about his childhood,
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  Speaker 3: but that that piece, especially about the scissors, because I've
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  Speaker 3: had other cases, for example, Joseph Kallinger, the shoemaker, he
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  Speaker 3: became instow killer. Now he was mentally ill, but there's
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  Speaker 3: a connection there. He he's the one that when he
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  Speaker 3: had a pair of pliers and he actually removed the
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  Speaker 3: penis of an eight year old boy, with it because
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  Speaker 3: he was a shoemaker and he'd been traumatized as a
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  Speaker 3: child by his father, who had been the little boy.
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  Speaker 3: The shoemaker, Joseph Callender, had had a hernie operation and
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  Speaker 3: when he was four, and when the father committed to
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  Speaker 3: see him at the hospital and he said, I'm hurting, Dad,
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  Speaker 3: I'm hurting, and that's he said, well, that's because you
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  Speaker 3: were a bad boy, and he pulls out those clippers.
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  Speaker 3: He said, because you're a bad boy, they had to
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  Speaker 3: use these clippers to cough you're you're birdie. So for
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: several weeks he thought that he'd lost his penis. That
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  Speaker 3: so traumatized him that when he became an adult, his
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  Speaker 3: father passed away, he took over the father's business, became
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  Speaker 3: a shoemaker. He inherited those pliers. He went out with
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  Speaker 3: his with the younger, with his with his son. They
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  Speaker 3: kidnapped an eight year old boy into a warehouse and
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  Speaker 3: cut off this boy's penis, and the boy bled to
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  Speaker 3: death in the warehouse, and then they went on to
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  Speaker 3: the father went on to kill another but he was
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  Speaker 3: mentally ill. He had this creature floating in the air
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  Speaker 3: over his head telling him to murder you know, to
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  Speaker 3: kill millions of people and collect their gentitles. So going
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  Speaker 3: back to this case with Kibbi, to me, I'm seeing
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  Speaker 3: something here, a connection with those scissors and he's cutting
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  Speaker 3: patterns into the clothing, cutting out in patterns. That's not normal.
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  Speaker 3: That's not normal. It's more of a signature something that
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  Speaker 3: that so the mo o, you know, the motors operandi
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  Speaker 3: that's used to commit the crime. Okay, the signature is
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  Speaker 3: to fulfill the fantasy. And I suspected this, Kibbi. It
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  Speaker 3: was actualizing his fancies by using these scissors and reading,
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  Speaker 3: acting things that had burned into his memory and his
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  Speaker 3: psychic when he was much younger.
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  Speaker 2: Great, great stuff. It's really fascinating, is I know you
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  Speaker 2: covered a couple of parts. One of the aspects you
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  Speaker 2: hit was the lack of attachment the calendar had with
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  Speaker 2: his father, how he handles the traumatic situations I just
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  Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, right, yeah, exactly as he sitting in the
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  Speaker 2: hospital and this is a response. It gets Now he
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  Speaker 2: internalizes I'm a bad person, and from there the world
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  Speaker 2: goes falls apart. Now I'm going to move up to
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  Speaker 2: the adolescence because it seems like some kind of metamorphosis
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  Speaker 2: happens here when it comes to sexual fantasies. Now, as
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  Speaker 2: we're getting much more involved, we get pornography thrown in.
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  Speaker 2: We remember Ted Bundy was savvy enough to realize the
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  Speaker 2: impact of pornography and violent pornography in one of his interviews.
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  Speaker 2: But that also plays a role down analyscens.
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  Speaker 3: Right, It certainly does so when boys go through puberty,
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  Speaker 3: and from research, we know that ninety nine percent of
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  Speaker 3: all boys by the time they reach the age of
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  Speaker 3: eighteen have masturbated extensively. That's normal, and I've come and
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  Speaker 3: wonder what happened to the other one percent. But when
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  Speaker 3: they go through that, that that masturbation process, and as
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  Speaker 3: they go through puberty, most boys masturbate the things that
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  Speaker 3: are we considered to be normal. I mean ordinary pornography
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  Speaker 3: when it's ordinary, but phornography, the things they find online.
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  Speaker 3: But they don't fantasize to killing the little girls or
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  Speaker 3: little boys those fantasies because that's not something that they've
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  Speaker 3: been socialized to, whether they've been traumatized or like that.
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  Speaker 3: So they don't think about those things. And they come
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  Speaker 3: across on the internet some that they stay away from. However,
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  Speaker 3: a child that's been traumatized. Especially there's a lack of
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  Speaker 3: attachment as they go to puberty and they masterate, they masturbate,
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  Speaker 3: two very dark things. And I get interviews with people
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  Speaker 3: who said, yeah, you know, I've always you know, I'm
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  Speaker 3: I've always thought about chopping up little little children. I've
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  Speaker 3: always had thought about that. We've had, we had serial killers.
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  Speaker 3: We've had who have actually enjoyed stabbing little children when
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  Speaker 3: they were kids going through puberty with knives, with pencils
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  Speaker 3: and things, and they were aroused by the suffering of
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  Speaker 3: the victim. And so we see that developmental process going
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  Speaker 3: along with that particular group of people. They go down
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  Speaker 3: that rabbit hole. And I had a couple of grandparents
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  Speaker 3: come to me one time today is doing a seminar,
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  Speaker 3: and they said, doctor, you know, we have a grandchild.
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  Speaker 3: He's fifteen years old and he's been saying fires, he's
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: been harming animals, and we're really worried about him. And
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  Speaker 3: I said, well, where is he. Well, he's in juvenile hall.
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  Speaker 3: I said, why is he there, Well, he's there for
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  Speaker 3: raping his raping his sister twice. Well wait a minute,
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  Speaker 3: let's let's back up, so you can say about the
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  Speaker 3: fire setting harmy animals. But now he's yeah, he read
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  Speaker 3: his sister twice. But doctor, we don't want to bother you.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: We know you're in a hurry. So we have a
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  Speaker 3: quick question for you. And this is their question, do
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  Speaker 3: you think our fifteen year old grandson is dangerous? And
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  Speaker 3: I said, not only is your grandson dangerous, it's too late.
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  Speaker 3: It's basically too late to turn back the clock. He's
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  Speaker 3: gotten past the harming the animals so much. Now he's
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  Speaker 3: raping his sister. Now he's moving into adult ways to
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  Speaker 3: act out. And I said, so this has been coming
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  Speaker 3: for years. There should have been an intervention many years ago.
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  Speaker 3: But of course we didn't get a chance to get
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  Speaker 3: into the fact that there's probably some really dysfunction going
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: on in that boy's life with his direct family. And
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: almost always asks the case or stuff going on, people say, well,
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: Tim Bundy, though he lived him, he was in a
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: good home. Well, okay, Tim Bundy didn't what he was
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: raised in a normal home. He was also adopted kid
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  Speaker 3: a lot of anger toward a certain class of women.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: It wasn't like you don't meet serial killers coming from
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: healthy homes. There's always things going No, a lot of
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: us come from dysfunctional homes. We don't become a serial killers.
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  Speaker 3: That's because we still have attachments to our family. You know.
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  Speaker 3: We find like if we're spank we still love our
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: parents because we know they're trying to correct us. But
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: for someone like Kibbi, there was stuff going on in
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: his family. You know that that show traumatized him. That
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  Speaker 3: he kept those scissors for a very important reason.
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  Speaker 2: And we're gonna look at him right now in adolescence
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: as he did some other things too that that's going
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: to stand out to you. And again, folks, it's one
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: hundred and sixty eight hours in a week. We don't
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: know what happens to anybody who's in a family at
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: age five six like Bundy. How long does it take
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: to abuse a child in a family?
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: Could take thirty minutes.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Twenty minutes in a week, and that could be severe
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: damage for that child. There's one hundred and sixty eight hours. Basically,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: the bottom line is that we don't really see what's
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: going on. We can't tell We don't even know our
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: neighbors that well. So it's really hard when people say, oh,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: they came from a normal family, How do you really know.
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  Speaker 3: What is normal. It's you know, I mean always going
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: to be things going on families. But the bottom line
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: is their love in the family. Do you really know
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: there's punishment and then you know there's there's discipline and punishment.
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  Speaker 3: And when you when you discipline a child, you do
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: because you love them. You punishment punishment. Usually when we
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: we like for example, the Department of Corrections, we know
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: some people to prison to correct them. We send them
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: there to punish them. And that's the purpose of prisons.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: If they change, they do it on their own. But
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: they seldom ever change, because we know that that people
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: go to prison and they cycle and they cycle up.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: Theyres that most of the of the criminal activity five
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: percent of Americans do most of the crime.
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: That's true, that's absolutely true.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: But now we know with the Kibbie, he was a teenager.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: He had petty theft issues. Yes, he was a prowler.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: He was observed stealing women's bathing suits and stockings. I'm
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: getting like a little linking of I mean a little
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: inkling of conduct disorder here.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, so you have conduct disorder, but you will also
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: have when you say a prower. He was also a voyeur.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: He was also peeping through windows. And when they peep
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: through windows, they're not just peeping through windows, they're also
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: outside masturbating. And the reason they're masturbating is because they
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: are creating a relationship in their fantasy world with the
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: with the woman inside or the child inside, whether they're
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: looking at and they don't know that person necessarily, but
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: is their form of attachment because they don't they're not
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: comfortable really within a human relationship. So it's more it's
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: easier for them to look through windows and there's a
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: it's a thrill for them, and they also sexually attached
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: themselves to that, to that person, and they might have
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: several victims, they might have several people there their problem.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: There's document at that time, so there's this whole idea
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: of going on the neighborhood thing and bathing suits and
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: so that wasn't something he sexualized, were bathing suits. And
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: I suspect it if he was getting into pornography probably
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: with women and women or women or children in bathing suits,
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: that would be attracted to him specifically, because it was
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: interesting how some men, you know, they conditioned themselves sexually
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: through masturbation and fantasy and exposure to certain types of pornography,
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: to certain elements that they find particularly arousing. I had
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: a case, uh a while back with a guy was
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: sexually aroused by high school cheerleaders outfits. And the reason
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: he did that because he had been offended by a
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: high school cheerleader when he was in high school. So
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: he got online. He went into cheerleader porn and started
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: masturbating to cheerleader porn and then start breaking the homes
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: of cheerleaders and still in their outfits, and he went
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: to actually went to this woman's this girl's home. He
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: was going to kill her, and she was a cheerleader.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: And when they caught him, when they searched him, and
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: he was going sixteen at the time, and they searched
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: him underath his clothing was where he was wearing a
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: Chilia roadfit. Oh wow, yeah yeah yeah, and I that yeah,
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: oh yeah he was. I interviewed him and I told
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: the judge and said, no, you gotta watch this one
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: because he's a harbinger of things to come.
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, it looks like it just caught him just
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: at the beginning of it, because it's signed to really
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: escalate it.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: Yes, it was definitely escalating.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: It's interestinguse. I know, I was talking to a professor
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: from you the UK and we were talking about nostalgia
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: and we looked at Missolgy in a different light. But
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: I'm just wondering because we were talking about how much
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: it really impacts us, and I'm wondering, from what you're
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: talking right now, if some of these things, such as Kiddy,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: for instance, maybe the bathing suits was nostalgic. Maybe it
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: was a time that he got to spend with his
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: mother at the beach, that he connected with her in
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: some capacity, and then he kind of manifested that because
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: he seems to be tying around a lot of garments.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: He also tried himself up with garments in his adolescent
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: years too.
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: It's kind of odd.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: You raise a really good point here, because we know
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: that often in British tabloids, for example, you can look
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: and see people advertising or have sex with someone wearing
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: a gas mask and wearing a slicker, a macintosh, a raincoat,
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: a raincoat, and so we think, well, that's pretty weird.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: Why would you want to have sex with someone wearing
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: a gas mask and a raincoat. Well, during the Second
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: World War, everybody in England in London had to have
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: a gas mask with them at all times, so you
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: know that they were having sex sometimes when they're being bombed.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Being bombed is they were having a near death experience
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: while they're having sex, and so they fuse that. So
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: after the war it becomes sexual arousing with them to
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: see someone in a gas mask and it brings back
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: that near death experience and so they try to relive it,
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: recreate it. Of course those people are all dead, but
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: other people come along and have engaged in those types
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: of experiences in some way and fantasized about. People get
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: bored with their own sex, sex sexualities and then they
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: try other things. So we see all these clubs out
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: there on these face clubs online that do all kinds
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: of things to reenact trauma from Dean, you know James
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Dean and his crashed over in California. They reenact those
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: car crashes have exected people have been in car crashes
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: to a variety of things that helped them realize they
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: deal with their trauma in some in some way.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: It's interesting now we know we go into his adulthood,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: we see he made and sold furniture, spent us free time,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: sky diving again. Now I'm starting to see flashes of
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: anti social maybe psychopath here being kind of reckless. As
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: you mentioned before in your last show, he can catch
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: by the way on his playlist the dark Side folks.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: In the last show you mentioned that psychopaths were fearless
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: but not brave.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: Yes, maybe you kind of.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Think about that.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: Definitely not not uh, fearless in that they don't think
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: about the consequence says so much that just bothered them.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: And you know, obviously a bit of a throw seeker,
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: so you know, I mean, we have we talk about
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: type A personalities and type B. A lot of us
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: are a little bit of both. I've always been a
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: little more to Type A, but I could be a
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: type BE very easily at times. Uh. Some people are
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: just because they're they're they're cortically understimulated. Uh, they're always
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: looking for that rush and something. And so it makes
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: me a little concerned. Also with Kibbi, that he wasn't
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: just trying to kill his victims. I think he enjoyed
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: the actual killing process. Some offenders want to kill the
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: victims very quickly because they don't care about the killing piece,
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: just want them to be dead because they're necrophiles, h
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: or I just want to get rid of a get
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: rid of evidence. I think Kippi's. I think he ritualized
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: the killings. He used now one cord he used the
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: prepara shooting. He had created a garrett a groat sob
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: he put it around their next it could strangle them.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: I suspect that there might there might have been some
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: sexual pleasure in killing them that way. He didn't like
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: the kemper would just simply put them in the headlock
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: and snap their necks, crush their next. This fellow, it
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: would take longer to kill someone that way, much longer,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: and it would be a horrifying death to be strangled
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: that way. There's different way to strangle people, and that
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: is not that's going to be really a horrific way
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: to die.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: A great point, because there's a psychological difference on how
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: you kill individuals.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: Yes, very much, so very much so. Yes. Yeah. I
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: asked one fellow, well did you ever watch the die
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: when you were killing them? And he said, well, no,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: why would I do that? Well, that told me he
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: wasn't statistic. He wasn't That didn't bother he wasn't interested
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: in their suffering. I suspect Kibby was very much interested
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: in their.
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: Suffering, fascinating stuff.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Well, look at now one of his first cases.
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: One of the things that pops.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Up in my mind here, and you can tell me
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: what you think about it, of course, is that he
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: opened up supposedly posted the jobs for a business trade
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: school in San Francisco with the intent of luring his
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: first victim, which was a twenty one year old Unfortunately,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: lou Ellen Burley who took the bait. He said his
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: office was under construction, so they met in his van.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Now I'm starting to get the thoughts here. We obviously
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: have at least partially an organized killer here, right, an
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: organized killer because he's starting to lure his victims in
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: instead of trying to blitz attack on it in this
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: kind of fashion. But what do you think about that
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: he's starting to going through a lot of work here.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: He drove her to a lake, he raped and strangled her,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: than he dumped her body in a nearby river bed,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: So we have a point of contact. Was in his
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: office where he said it was being under construction, so
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: he took it to a van, drove her somewhere else.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: That's where he killed her, then drove her again somewhere
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: else to dump the body. What is all that telling you?
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: Well, you know when a person, when someone who becomes
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: a serial killer, when their first starting, uh, they have
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: to figure out how to how to make it work
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: for them, you know, they have to get comfortable and
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: they try things out. You know, does it is it
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: going to work for me that way? And well I
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: get caught, And so they tried out in different ways.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, Ki a relatively intelligent person. He was very
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: as you say, very methodical on how he lured his
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: first victim. I think I'm just going to speculate here
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: that he probably found it to be a bit cumbersome,
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: a bit risky advertising and try to lure them to
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: his house, to his bus, places of business, and the
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: game in the van so on. And I think that's
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: why later he switched to picking up women on highways.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: It was just easier to do that. And someone may
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: maybe in prostitute, some were not, but for him that
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: was kind of low hanging fruit, easy, easy access. And
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: back in those days, by the way, women more more
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: trusting in some ways they didn't No one really talked
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: about Syrah pillers back in the seventies, we didn't have that.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: It wasn't we talked about. They were there, but we
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: didn't talk about it, so they were more likely to
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: hitch because back in the seventies it was not uncommon.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: I used to I used to hitch like a lot
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: when I was back in the seventies. Yeah, in the
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: sixties and seventies, it was not uncommon. People just get
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: in the car with you. And I think that he
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: just probably found it simpler after that one to just
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: go and get them, picked them up on the highways,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: and it was just less complicated for him. But yeah,
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: I do see. He certainly was methodical and planning. And
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: so if we were to classify him in terms of
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: what type of rapist to using the old FBI growth
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: typologies which we are now renovating, if you will reconstructing
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: them a bit, he would be a type four, probably
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: a type four where somewhat sadistic beats the victims, strangles them,
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: he enjoys the suffering of the victim. I mean, it
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: was very planned out, methodical. They often have recording devices,
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: they they certain types of ligatures they use. Everything is
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: planned out in advance, and they don't always kill you
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: but most times that they're going to kill you. And
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: I think that he would fit in in the well
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: into that category. There's some differences, but I think overall
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: that's what he would be replaced. And then the course
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: then he went on over a period of what ten
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: ten least ten eleven years where he killed women and
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: he took his time. It wasn't like he would I
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: mean he could have killed an I suspect he killed others.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: I suspect there were other victims that we don't know
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: about that will never know about, because you know, he
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: would dump them in the woods and they wouldn't be found.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: I mean this one of his victory would have found.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: The detectives went to them back to the dry creek
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: and happen to find a piece of bone that ended
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: up being the cheap bone of one of the victims,
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: and they couldn't find anything else because you know, they
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: mis at it by the weather and by animals. So
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: over years, you know that happened that Bunny was doing
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: that same thing. He was taking taking bodies out in
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: the woods and they would be found only body parts
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: later on, and somebics were never found because of the
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: animals and weathering. And so on. So you know, it's
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: a different kind of you know, methodology and thinking process
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: and fantasy process of how are you going to do
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: this and get away with it? Whereas you take Angel
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Borano and the Hillside Strangers, they simply left their bodies out.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: They want people to find the bodies. They deliberately made
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: sure that they were left in the open view so
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: they'd be found. They like they enjoyed the shock bell.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: They were very very statistic as well, a different approach.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: So again, we don't just create one profile for a
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: show cup because there's different methodologies mos and signatures and
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: fantasies they're trying to fulfill and so but each case
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: is different, has very unique parts to it. Generally we
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: can step back and say, well, they've been traumatized in
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: childhood and the one. But how they carry out their killings. Absolutely,
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: they're very individualized, if you.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Will, fascinating stuff. Fascinating stuff his second kill or the
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: second victim. It's interesting because he seems to start following
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: a serial killer mo pattern here as you mentioned a
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: minute ago, because she was sometimes he picked this woman
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: up and who was Laura Heateck, who's twenty one years old,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: who sometimes picked up sex work in order to obtain
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: money for drugs. And we know serial killers will target
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: a lot of times prostitutes hitchhikers. As you mentioned, the
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: actually kind of reminded me of the movie Rutger HOWERD
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: The Hitchhiker. I think that kind of exploited the idea
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: of how dangerous hitchhiking was starting to become right.
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: She was seen getting into the carb man in his fifties,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: which I'm assuming is Kibi, was never seen again. Her
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: badly decomposed body remains were found September fifth off I
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: five and I guess this is where the story begins
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: with the I five strangler and odds sized shapes have
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: cut out of the tank top she was wearing too,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: had been used to strangle her to death. She actually
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: used the tank top I guess to strangle her.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's again you wouldn't how they'd like to
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: find that in any other case. I mean, we've seen
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: some very unique and interesting signatures. Why would anybody cut
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: something out of a material out of someone's clothing and
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: then use that clothing to strangle them when you could
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: be much more efficient just to have your own use
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: of rope. So there's a fantasy being acted out here.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: And so it wasn't just they desire to kill somebody,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: but also the fantasy driven homicide and fulfilling that fantasy,
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: which I'm sure goes back to his mother where he
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: has seen her perhaps making clothing. The mother may have
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: used something related to clothing, maybe to maybe maybe he
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: was suffocated by maybe she did that to him. That
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: there are something they're going to connect. It's like having
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: a foot fetish. Not that I don't have a foot fish,
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: but some men do. And it's not against the law
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: unless you're breaking to homes and looking at their feet.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: It's not against a lot to have a foot fetch
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: But where does it come from? What's the ideology? So
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: this is a paraphilia that we're talking about. And so
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: we're talking about Kibbie. He clearly had developed something that
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: was very paraphilic. His fantasy had led him to develop
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: a sexualized So it's a paraphilia where he's sexually aroused
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: by this material. It brings me some sexual graphfication of
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: some sort, and so you think, well why that clothing?
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Well why foot? The foot goes back to mothers and
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: of to mothers and how they perceived their mothers when
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: they were young, how the foot became a very symbolic
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: to them and became very sexualized from a very early age,
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: and usually as a result of some kind of trauma,
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: not always, but usually with the trauma. So I'm just
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: thinking about this. Kibbi is fascinating guy. I mean when
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: me forensically speaking, I mean, obviously I'm glad he's dead,
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: and he should have died a long time ago. But
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: that said, as a as an investigator and as a
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: criminal psychologist, I'm fascinated by how he chose to use
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: scissors to cut a piece of material out strangle the
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: victim that is ritualized. It speaks to heavily the fantasy
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: and things that happened to him as a child.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: That'd be a great episode to have the future is
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: to talk about the role of fantasies.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Yes, because it's always there. We could
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: spend a whole full session just on fantasies, because that's
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: something that historically we've not looked at. Researchers have talked
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: about the behaviors, you know, the outcome, But the paraphilia
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: has three components, you know, there's the ideology. Where did
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: it come from? What did that desire to people with
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: women's feed off? Where did that come from? You know,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: what's what's the eeology? Where did it come what was
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: the trauma the experience? The second part is the fantasy piece,
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: and that's the part that never really gets explored, which
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: absolutely need to be studied more and more in the
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: course of the behavior. So we always focused on the
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: actual behavior, we don't realize what drives that behavior is
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: the fantasy, which was a result of childhood trauma. That's interesting.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: I think we have a great conversation on that because
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: I'd definitely like to be for some YOUNGI and at
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: you and to think about it.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would like that.
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: Yes, did I see a lot of the young aspects there?
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: As we get ready towards wrapping up here, believe it
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: or not.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: We're almost done, folks. But one of the things we
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: do notice with Kidbie, and again, folks, we don't know
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: how many people he kills, doctor Hicky mentioned a minute ago.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I really don't know.
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: We only know the ones that caught.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: But yes, he seemed to be escalating really quickly. At
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: one point in nineteen eighty six when he killed the
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: second victim in April twenty first, he kills another one
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: in July. He was like twice in that month alone.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: On a thirty abducted a twenty nine year old now
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: going a little bit older and then dubbing her body
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: along a stretch of the road that in July fifteenth,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: literally less than two weeks later, killed Stephanie Brown who
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: was nineteen, and they found her car abandoned along on
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: the I five. And then another month later August seventeenth,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: there might have been people in the middle of that
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: where he killed another twenty six year old. Does that's
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: how anything was? It seems like it's really storrying to
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: escalate here.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, we sort of seen that escalation pattern, and because
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: of that, it's unlikely that he decided to take a
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: hiatus and to stop killing before. I mean, we seemed
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: still killers have done that like BTK, but in case
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: like Jeffrey Dahmer was he had like seven or eight
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: years where he didn't kill anybody. But I knew and
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: I suspected, and I talked to his mom about it.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: I said, I know he was doing something during that
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: period of time, and she said, well, yeah, he actually
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: told me about it, and he said he was going
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: to he was taking a young man who'd been buried.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: He went to the funerals and saw them into the
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: funerals and went to the to the interments, and then
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: they digged them up.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: He was getting to offer him, so he decided a cool,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: cool offer a little while. Or do you think he
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: was just a switch on his own fantasy world.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: Well so, I think after he killed his first victim,
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: he had some recreation in his fantasies. And I think
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: because also because it was a necrophile, he toured a
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: true necro file. I think, you know, he felt badly.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know he felt badly what he did, uh,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: and he recognized it was pathetic. So, but he was lonely,
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: and I think he was drawn to debt to young
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: debt boys because he couldn't establish the real relationship with
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: anybody and have that kind of intimacy capability. So over
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: time that's why he was drawn to. But then after
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: a while, he uh, you know, he realized he wanted
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: more more intimacy, uh, in his in his fantasy world,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: ended up bringing in young men to his home and
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: then eventually killing them. And so on. But that's a
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: whole nother that's a whole other story and another show. Yeah,
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: that's another show because that, I mean, that's a deep
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: dive into that. In that particular case, I spent time
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: with his mother with his brother passing. Absolutely fascinating.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: I'm starting to see five days a week, doctor r
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: the last a couple of minutes, here.
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: We go, we're going to fast forward. He gets caught.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Eventually, they starts setting up a trap over there. In
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: the I five, the police officers realized that they have
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: a serial killer on their hands more than likely, so
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: they start setting up the trap. We're going to fast
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: forward through that just because of time constraints here.
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: And that's one of the things too. People don't realize.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: In the nineteen seventies and eighties, the lawforces really didn't
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: communicate with each other very much in regards to killings,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: so they didn't put two and two together.
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: They probably didn't even know about signatures yet.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: None of that stuff was out there, so it was
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: really a hard press for anybody figured out there was
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: a serial killer out there. Ask you this now, well,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: actually you can comment on that if you want. I'm
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: not sure if you.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: Want to go, yeah, well, yeah, Wayne Williams, the land
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: child killer. I moved there in nineteen eighty one when
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: summer he was caught, and kind of got involved with
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: the case a little bit. Wayne Williams he would cross
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: county lines by cross the county lines and getting victims.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: He knew that, he knew that that law enforcement didn't
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: communicate very well back in those days, and so it
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: created a lot of confusion and they weren't talking to
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: each other very well, and that was one of his
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: ways he operated. But he did stay with locally within
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: his own within the greater Atlanta area and finding his victims.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: That was the fascinating case. I went back on that
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: case twenty five years later and got on a bus
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: with the activists, black activists who said Wayne Williams is innocent.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: So we went around to all the crime scenes, to
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: several of the crime scenes where the buys had been
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: dumb and I said to him, I said, look, I
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: appreciate the fact you're here. If you look twenty five
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: years ago, this was an all black community. Today it's
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: an all black community. If a white face had come
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: into this community, okay, you would have noticed a white
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: pace coming in forty or fifty times picking up boys,
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: but no one ever saw a white guy because it
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: was it was Wayne Williams. Now, did he kill them all?
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: Probably not, but he killed at least seventeen because they
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: all died exactly the same way, and there's there's a
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: harrifi reverdence was overwhelming. I said, I understand why you're
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: you're concerned. There are still killed and being killed in Atlanta. Absolutely,
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: and you need to be active, active about that and
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: find to say to those children, but don't ever try
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: to get him out of prison because he is a
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: serial killer and he's very dangerous. And you know, you
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: can have black serial killers, you can have white cirl killer,
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Asian Hispanics. I mean, there's it's not a race specific
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: type of crime. Just we have a larger white community,
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: so you're going to see more white serial killers. And
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: I think also historically we we focus more on whites
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: because because it's a wealthy white community. Today we talk
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: about everybody everybody gets equal opportunity, in which I think
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: is fantastic because one thing that's been missing out here
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: are the voices of the victims, the prostitutes. For example,
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: Kibbi's victims. Some of the victims didn't never had a voice.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: No one who are the victims? No one cares? And
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: you look at it, look at the victims of black
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: serial killers. If you're killing plast prostitutes, poor black prostitutes,
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: who is going to be who cares about them? Then?
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: But I think we have an obligation to give victims
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: a voice because they all had parents, they all had relatives,
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: and they all mourn the loss of their loved ones.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: And I think as a society, we need to be
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: able to say that we've done our very best to
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: bring some justice and exposure and shine that light on it.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: So that's what we're doing that. This show is great
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: because we get to shine a light on some of this,
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: not just about the offenders, but also so the victim
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: upender relationships and the victims themselves, and we can do
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: shows on that too. Well.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: That's a great way.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: It's interesting when you mentioned that we focus a lot
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: on the serial killers.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Society is fascinated and it kind of reminds me of
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: that Pogo cartoon. Oh yes, we've met the enemy and
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: they are us, And it kind of reminds me because
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: we're the ones kind of feeding that sometimes about the
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: serial killers instead of focusing on the victims as much.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're doing it forensically to be able to
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: help mitigate future seriously, to get people to understand when
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: you talk about ideology earlier, the importance of nipping it
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: at the butt before he gets into really a problematic situation.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: As you mentioned doctor Hickey. I guess at the end
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: of the day he found his fate the same way
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: he died.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: They're oddly enough. I'm sure people know if they call
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: this show, I'm sure they already know that there's a
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: code of ethics in the prison system. Yes, it usually
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: runs with pedophiles. I don't know. Is there a code
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: in the regards to real killers.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: Well, I was, but well, there are people who want
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: to kill serial killer to make a dance for themselves
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: in the prison system. Most sir killers when they go
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: to prison, not like Charles Manson who was in protective
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: housing the entire time, pretty much the entire time, like
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: jeffre Donald was in regular population. Most people, just most
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: sure killers are pretty low key in the prison system.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: They don't try to draw attention to themselves. But they're
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: also relatively average barbaries of intelligence that they can handle
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: themselves and they manage okay, But you have to understand
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: on death row, for example, ten percent of people on
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: death row get murdered, and murders in prisons are pretty common.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: This guy was kipping with a one years old and
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: someone may have found out recently that you know, he
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: get killed young women, or maybe it killed someone that
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: was related to one of the inmates, or someone he
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: knew and where got to him and so he just
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: paid a debt back and decided to go help this
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: family out. Who knows what motivated that person. Think I
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: was eighty one years old, so there had to be
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: some motivation. And I suspect it was not just because
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: she was an elderly man because he was a serial killer.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: Probably because the killer knew one of the victims, or
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: he was related in some way. Something got out. I
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: don't get. I don't get the impression that this person
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: was trying to make a name for themselves. I think
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: they just wanted him to be gone and so on.
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: Dahmer was the same way I was. Dahmer was going
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: to do some running for me. But I remember he
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: told his mom because they talked every week and he
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: said one day he said, no, Mom, I just you know,
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: I don't want to be in prison anymore. I'm tired
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: of being in prison. But I know I'm too dangerous
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: to be on the streets. And to two or three
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: weeks later he was dead. And I think when he
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: was attacked, and so was this other man attacked the
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: same time, I don't think Dahmer fought back. I think
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: Dahmer was ready to go. And I think because them
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: was a big guy, he could have defended himself. I
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: think he just let himself be killed by this fellow.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: And you know, obviously being around someone who is to
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: cannibal as seventeen young men probably made some people a
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: little bit nervous. And Kidby I don't think he'd be
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: madeybody nervous. He'd been there for a long time, but
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: someone probably settled settled the score with him. Maybe Kibby
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: got a little bit of narcisism. He might. You might
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: have crossed the guy a little bit, and guys down
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: paid backs coming.
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, all kind of you a long time to yeah,
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: get rotating troops.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: And so lot lots of possible we don't know. Whe're
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: no respectuling, but U that that may come out during
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: the investigation. Well probably not because people you know, they're
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: not going to talk. I mean, you made know we
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: settled this done. No one, No one's going to grieve
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: over the loss of Roger Kibbe. The only people that
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: should grieve are those who lost children and he killed them.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: But we don't know where they are, We don't know
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: who they are, and they've just children just disappeared and
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: the boys have never been found and now Kibi's gone,
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: so there's no closure here. Yeah for those families.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, that reminds me, folks. Was another show that
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: we do every Wednesday at eleven am with detective or
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: retired detective Danny Smith. We try to bring some closure
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: in hopes with talking unsolved murders and trying to see
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: if we can find some answers and maybe hopefully provide
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: some information that can help solve this because it does
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: provide closure. Yes, you know, it's interesting, Doctor Nickings. I
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: did start a podcast a couple of weeks ago, and
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: cold case is solved, and it's really amazing how many
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: there are. I was looking at it.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: Everyone just one. There's so many, and I wish I
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: did a much more listening on that. Yeah, I've worked
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: on cold case review teams and uh, I've I've interviewed. Uh,
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: we have one when we have one case where the
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: guy has killed thirty six college students and two prostituts
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: and those bodies have never been recovered. Uh, and then
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: and then, and they probably never will be now because
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: I think the offender has the mental illness, but we
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: do know that he killed them all. So very tragic,
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: all these families who want closure and can't get closure,
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: like a case of in Oregon, the guy we know
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: he killed some other girls up there, but he's not
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: going to minute because he's a narcissist. He's never going
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: to and there's no death penalty, it won't cost him anything.
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: He's in prison, he's never going to get up because
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: of his last two murders that he's in prison for,
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: but he will never confess to the others even though
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: we know he did them because he's a narcissist. Crazy stuff.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Time went too fast.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always great talking to you. This is Yeah,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: I really enjoy I enjoy it. Forensically speaking, I enjoy
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: it because it's yeah, Yeah, it's it's been an interesting
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: career so far.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, thank you for all your work.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Again, folks, catch the Dark Side. I can see the
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: playlist and all the episodes of Doctor Hickey will be there.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: This is episode number two, so catch those. You can
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: catch the other shows going on throughout the week as well.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: If you want to support us, make sure to share
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: and subscribe. You hit that little notification bell so every
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: time one pops up, they'll be notified. Thanks everyone for
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: listening Doctor Hickey. I'm sure if you want to say
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: farewell to everyone.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, thanks everybody for listening. And if you want
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: to contact you more than welcome to. We do appreciate
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: you coming on listen to the show. There's much more
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: to come. I have many many cases to discuss, and
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: we're going to get to the dark side, the deep dive.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: We'll be getting into paraphilia and stalking and psychopathology and
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: a variety of things that enjoy it. And also, if
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: you're interested in any of my books, the book on Cera,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: Murder and the Victims seventh Edition is a book I
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: think that you would enjoy. Friendshiply speaking, I think you
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: could enjoy it. So that's it. Thanks very much.