Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / Cones, Camaraderie, and Car Control: A Deep Dive into Autocross with Tom & Todd

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Cones, Camaraderie, and Car Control: A Deep Dive into Autocross with Tom & Todd · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

• 0:00
  Grand Touring Motorsport started as a social group of car enthusiasts,
• 0:04
  but we've expanded into all sorts of motor sports disciplines and we
• 0:08
  want to share our stories with you.
• 0:10
  Years of racing wrenching and motorsports experience brings together
• 0:14
  a topnotch collection of knowledge and information through our podcast.
• 0:18
  Break Fix.
• 0:22
  On this episode of Break Fix, we're gonna chat about a discipline of motor
• 0:26
  sports where outsiders often ask What in the world is going on over there?
• 0:31
  You know, the one, that form of racing many of us started with, where you
• 0:34
  attempt to navigate your car through a defined course made up of orange
• 0:39
  traffic cones on a large parking lot composed of tight technical layouts.
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  These races put handling and driver ability above engine
• 0:47
  output and outright top speed.
• 0:49
  So if you haven't guessed by now, we're going to be exploring the world of
• 0:53
  autocross, also known as solo, with my guest, Tom Hill and Todd Lilly, both
• 0:59
  seasoned SCCA, autocrossers here to help us really understand what is autocross.
• 1:06
  So welcome to Break Fix, Tom and Todd.
• 1:08
  Hello.
• 1:08
  Hi.
• 1:08
  Thanks.
• 1:09
  Good to be here.
• 1:10
  Did you guys know that when SCCA started in the mid 1940s, you know, just at
• 1:15
  the tail end of World War ii, some of the first events they held were
• 1:19
  time trials known then as autocross.
• 1:22
  No, I didn't.
• 1:22
  Did not know that.
• 1:23
  But as we said in the intro, outsiders looking at an autocross for the first time
• 1:28
  are thinking, what are these cars doing?
• 1:30
  Driving around a parking lot with a bunch of cones?
• 1:32
  Is this some sort of driver education program, defensive driving clinic?
• 1:36
  How would you guys explain autocross to somebody that's never seen it before?
• 1:40
  First of all, you know, my mom, she, you know, it's like, oh, you do autocross.
• 1:45
  I thought you drove your car on pavement.
• 1:47
  Everything, everybody thinks motocross or something and they're like, oh,
• 1:50
  you, it's like dirt bikes, right?
• 1:51
  I mean, that's the first one you gotta dispel.
• 1:53
  Absolutely.
• 1:54
  But the, uh, other items you mentioned, driver training, safety and all that, I
• 1:58
  was sort of classified as all the above.
• 2:00
  The stuff we do out there teaches you skills that are actually
• 2:04
  useful in avoiding accidents and being a better driver on the road.
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  Plus it, you know, gets all of that driving excitement out of
• 2:10
  your system so you're a more mellow, uh, driver on the road.
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  So when I was growing up, people always used to say autocross
• 2:15
  is all about precision driving.
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  And nowadays if you say that, they go, wait, you mean drifting?
• 2:20
  They're not the same thing.
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  The, and well, the precision part.
• 2:23
  I mean, you're, you know, sometimes you'll be classed or ranked the
• 2:27
  thousands of a second or even better, you know, so it, it's absolutely
• 2:31
  a little wobble or a sneeze.
• 2:32
  And there goes first place.
• 2:34
  Some of my other friends, I say, Hey, you know, how fast can you do a u-turn?
• 2:38
  That's pretty much all, you know, it's like, how fast can you avoid a pedestrian?
• 2:41
  Can you do a u-turn?
• 2:42
  Can you, can you do those?
• 2:44
  You know, 'cause they're like, man, how fast do you go?
• 2:45
  Your car looks so fast and you're like, well, it's like 25 miles an
• 2:50
  hour in a, in a street car maybe.
• 2:52
  And not to be confused with another discipline of motor sport, which actually
• 2:55
  falls under the rally category, partially drift, which is gym kana, which is also
• 2:59
  sometimes done on large parking lots.
• 3:01
  But those are larger defined courses with walls and barriers and as we
• 3:05
  refer to it in autocross, one cone turnarounds, like they're going
• 3:08
  around a hay bale, things like that.
• 3:09
  So we wanna make sure that people understand what autocross
• 3:12
  is, is really about here.
• 3:13
  Like you mentioned, lots of traffic cones.
• 3:16
  It's a bit of a, uh.
• 3:17
  Mental exercise.
• 3:18
  I mean, if you're on a track, you've got a fairly defined area, right?
• 3:22
  You've got the pavement and you've got the grass.
• 3:24
  Uh, you typically wanna stay off the grass.
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  Well with autocross, the course is actually laid out in that big parking
• 3:30
  lot and, and it's in the cones.
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  The cones really don't define the course per se, you know, they're the
• 3:37
  limitations and all that sort of thing, but the course actually is in there.
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  You have to be able to go out there and walk the course.
• 3:43
  Understand, you know, what the path is gonna look like and be
• 3:46
  able to develop some vision there.
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  And that's one of the more challenging aspects of it, I think.
• 3:50
  Absolutely.
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  And we'll explore that more as we get deeper into the conversation.
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  Let's kind of talk about beginnings.
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  You know, there's always an origin story.
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  In this case, we're not gonna talk necessarily about
• 3:59
  the history of DER Cross.
• 3:59
  Let's talk about your guys' history and CROs.
• 4:02
  So for many folks, autocross has been a gateway into other motor sports.
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  I mean, Brad and I, and unfortunately Brad isn't here with us on this episode.
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  I know he loves the autocross.
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  We autocross through high school and college.
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  You know, I grew up with my dad being a national pro solo champ, things like that.
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  So I was always around the autocross course, but it led me to other things.
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  It led me into time trials.
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  It led me into track and HPDE and all these other kinds of things.
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  And for other folks, maybe they started in carting and
• 4:28
  found their way into autocross.
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  How did you guys get into autocross?
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  Let's start with Todd.
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  Well, you know, I was in California and doing, uh, I. Pseudo motorcycle racing.
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  I drive at about 110%, but I have about 89% skill.
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  So you know, a separated shoulder and some other, other broken bones and stuff.
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  And they had a autocross club at where I worked that they
• 4:50
  set up in the parking lot.
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  Same thing.
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  What?
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  What are you guys doing?
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  You're driving around some cones and then you know, I got outta motorcycles
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  and in at a 97 Trans AM V eight and took it out there and spun it around.
• 5:03
  Dig donuts.
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  Slid all over the place and went really slow.
• 5:06
  Right.
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  And that, and that's how, you know, and then it went to ESP. So then
• 5:09
  you had, you know, sticky tires and started throwing money at
• 5:13
  suspension and brakes and training.
• 5:15
  Of course, lots of training, lots of seat time.
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  So it really was, wanted to save my skin going from motorcycles to some
• 5:21
  other sort of cheaper, you know, I, I looked at racing, but, you know, I
• 5:25
  couldn't even afford, I was run, had a production class Ninja two 50, right?
• 5:29
  Which is basic beginner motorcycle.
• 5:31
  And even just keeping that going, I was like, man, that I don't know
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  that I want to get into actual racing, going to the racetrack,
• 5:37
  putting that additional time into it.
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  So, I mean, that, that's how I got started.
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  Would you say that that's what attracted you to the sport, is
• 5:43
  maybe getting out of motorcycles?
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  The risk had become too high and then it was like, Hey, I'm more protected.
• 5:49
  Four wheels, this seems safer, or was it something else?
• 5:51
  Well, you know, and also in California, I, I'd gone to Thunder Hill quite a
• 5:55
  bit, Laguna Seka, and on the motorcycle.
• 5:58
  So it was, you know, big, long, straight.
• 6:00
  You're set up for the corner, you're waiting, you're waiting turn.
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  Set up for the next corner.
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  You're big, long, straight.
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  You're waiting, you're waiting.
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  You know, I really enjoyed the cornering and the G-forces.
• 6:09
  Autocross is just all corners.
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  There's any straight, you know, somebody messed up the course or it's like a 4th of
• 6:16
  July course or something where, you know, they say, oh, you know, we'll let you
• 6:19
  get up to 75 miles an hour or something.
• 6:22
  But don't tell anybody.
• 6:23
  So Tom, how about you?
• 6:24
  How did you get into auto crossing?
• 6:26
  A long time ago, a friend of mine, uh, his dad was doing this auto cross bent
• 6:30
  and I had a, uh, a 1980 Honda Accord that I had, you know, worked on, put
• 6:35
  bigger tires on that sort of thing.
• 6:37
  So, you know, my initial auto crosses were, were back in those days, back
• 6:40
  in the, in the mid to late eighties.
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  And I, I ran some and then, uh, sort of gave it up later on.
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  This was probably about 15 years ago.
• 6:48
  I was, uh, thinking about building some other, another car.
• 6:51
  But then I had sort of had this crisis of conscious where I was thinking.
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  What am I gonna do with this car?
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  Once I build it?
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  It's gonna be some kind of fast, hot rod.
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  Can't really rip up and down the uh, highways and byways anymore.
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  There's too much traffic, so I thought, well.
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  Hey, what I'll do is start autocrossing again.
• 7:07
  I actually got rid of the project cars that I had and I went out and bought a, a
• 7:11
  c four Corvette and started Autocrossing.
• 7:14
  The thing I like about it is I, I've done some track days, you know, those are fun.
• 7:18
  Uh, but I'm, I'm with you, Todd.
• 7:20
  It's kind of compared to autocross, it's, I don't wanna really say
• 7:23
  boring, but the autocross, like you say, is all turned all the time.
• 7:26
  I mean, you're either setting up or you're turning or you're speeding
• 7:28
  up, you're slowing down tracks.
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  A lot of times, you know, you go to the turn, you turn in, you
• 7:33
  hit the apex, you accelerate.
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  I mean, it's fun, but it's just the pace is a little slower.
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  Plus it seems to be harder on the car, on the track.
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  Almost every time I would go to a track day and come back
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  and have to replace brakes.
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  Plus with autocross, I'm lucky we've got a good site here locally.
• 7:48
  I can go autocross and come home, mow the grass.
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  You can go get your uh, you know, motor sports on, but still
• 7:53
  be home in time for dinner.
• 7:55
  Let's settle A little debate between the track guys and the autocross guys.
• 7:59
  'cause I know we've all dabbled in both and you hear the arguments both ways.
• 8:03
  To your point, Tom, oh, it's a little bit slow, it's a little
• 8:06
  bit boring, this and that.
• 8:07
  It's repetitive being at the track, but then you hear the same thing about the
• 8:11
  track guys talking about auto costs.
• 8:12
  I gotta wait around all day for three runs that are gonna be a minute or less.
• 8:17
  And if you're lucky to, to Todd's point, some of these 4th of July courses that
• 8:21
  are a minute and a half long, oh my God, that, that's a stretch for an autocross.
• 8:25
  I don't wanna say which is better.
• 8:27
  Which is right.
• 8:28
  Maybe they both are, maybe they, they both have their pluses and minuses, right?
• 8:31
  Oh yeah.
• 8:32
  I feel like any people that are involved in motor sports.
• 8:35
  That's drag racing, drifting track stuff all across.
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  I mean, they're all part of the family and I think, like you said, they all
• 8:42
  have their pluses and minuses and certain things appeal to certain people.
• 8:46
  I'm not saying track stuff's boring.
• 8:48
  I've never actually done any wheel to wheel racing, so I would imagine
• 8:51
  that would be pretty exciting as well.
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  You know, I was out doing the, the track days, so, you know, you're
• 8:55
  just out there kind of goofing off when you get right down to it.
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  You gotta like picking up cones if you want to do all the stuff.
• 9:02
  I like hitting them.
• 9:02
  Yeah, yeah.
• 9:03
  But, but I think that really, that working the course gives you an
• 9:08
  opportunity to stand out there and watch what other people are doing.
• 9:11
  You know, I find that that actually helps me do better when I'm driving the course.
• 9:15
  If I get to watch a bunch of cars go by, and especially if you're on one
• 9:18
  of the tricky corners, you get to see what works and what doesn't work.
• 9:21
  I'm with you.
• 9:22
  I mean, all across hell, I, I went one time to an event in Georgia.
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  I drove, uh, eight and a half hours to get down there.
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  Like I say, I'm gonna get six runs.
• 9:30
  They're 30 seconds, 40 seconds a pop.
• 9:32
  Well, my accelerator pedal broke on the first run, so I got about 30 seconds
• 9:37
  of driving for my, you know, 16 hours worth of transit time anecdote on that.
• 9:43
  So a regular, regular autocross then, huh?
• 9:45
  Yeah, no.
• 9:46
  Oh, that was so frustrating.
• 9:48
  But when I, the first time I went to nationals, we ran out of daylight
• 9:52
  when I was running my class.
• 9:54
  I burned a tank of diesel fuel for each run that I got on the course at National.
• 9:59
  Geez.
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  So it took me five tanks of diesel to get there and back.
• 10:02
  So, yeah.
• 10:02
  You know, I, I understand, but I do feel like those 30 seconds, 45
• 10:06
  seconds, 62nd runs, I mean, it is.
• 10:09
  Pure excitement the whole time.
• 10:12
  It is full send, as we call it, around here.
• 10:14
  There is no room for error and you are pedal to the metal, that's for sure.
• 10:18
  That's what I like about, of course, I haven't ever done wheel to wheel,
• 10:20
  so I'd like to, I did some lemons and I, I, you know, it's sort of
• 10:24
  like what you're saying, that the autocross is continuous Absolutely.
• 10:28
  At the edge of your seat.
• 10:29
  And I did, you know, lemons wheel to wheel sort of, you know, the difference
• 10:32
  between, uh, track days where you just set up, turn in apex and you know,
• 10:36
  gas on the way out, wheel to wheel.
• 10:37
  You're like, oh, I need to get around this car and then still make the corner.
• 10:41
  So it's like, okay, I'm gonna do a Chicago box around to that guy.
• 10:45
  Oh, the car is sliding a little bit.
• 10:47
  I slide my car all the time in autocross so I know what's going on.
• 10:50
  And then, you know, changing different lines and stuff.
• 10:52
  So I think the autocross experience really helps out all of your
• 10:56
  screw ups on the racetrack.
• 10:58
  Every time I've screwed up, you know, it's been like, oh, well I'm
• 11:01
  sliding, I know what happens next.
• 11:03
  Right.
• 11:03
  You know, but if it was just racetrack experience, I'm
• 11:06
  like, oh, I do not wanna slide.
• 11:08
  I don't wanna.
• 11:09
  Change lanes suddenly.
• 11:11
  I don't wanna, whatever, where autocross gives you the chance to do
• 11:14
  all that stuff, reasonably safe, put 'em together and it's pretty fun.
• 11:18
  Unless it, you know what I mean?
• 11:19
  But yeah, I do, I do.
• 11:21
  And, and it can be summarized in a small phrase, which is car control.
• 11:24
  Every discipline of motorsport brings something else to the table.
• 11:28
  And I always approach motor sports as this broad brush thing that you can learn
• 11:32
  something from every discipline and it makes you a more well-rounded driver.
• 11:36
  For instance, if you started in carts, what did they teach you?
• 11:39
  Other than that, carts are really slow compared to anything else you're
• 11:42
  ever gonna drive except for Miata.
• 11:43
  But we'll get into that.
• 11:45
  I gotta take a pot shot at Tom a little bit.
• 11:48
  What I'm getting at here is.
• 11:50
  It teaches you Racecraft.
• 11:51
  That's one of the best places to learn how to be in a pack of
• 11:54
  other cars like a Spec Miata race.
• 11:57
  As you grow into motorsport, things like that, autocross brings car control, which
• 12:01
  to your point, Todd, when you're in a on a racetrack and the car suddenly breaks
• 12:05
  loose on you, it becomes instinctual how you're gonna react to that, you know?
• 12:09
  And, and rally brings different things.
• 12:10
  They all bring something to the table.
• 12:12
  So, like I said before, I don't know if one is necessarily better than
• 12:16
  the other, so much as they're all stepping stones to where we want to go.
• 12:20
  Eventually.
• 12:21
  I don't know what everybody's goal is gonna be different.
• 12:23
  Some people live in the world of autocross forever.
• 12:26
  So let's kind of expand upon that and talk about.
• 12:29
  How do you get started in autocross?
• 12:31
  What does it take to get going?
• 12:33
  What do you really need?
• 12:34
  Are there schools and how do you get better at this particular sport?
• 12:38
  What you need is a checkbook, a pulse, and a car with a good battery
• 12:42
  hold down and that right there will get you started in autocross.
• 12:46
  Well, there's about 50 of those at the Hertz rental lot.
• 12:48
  So, uh, yeah, yeah, just make sure the battery's tied down.
• 12:51
  That's the, seems to be the number one thing that flunks people on
• 12:54
  tech inspection, but to me it's all about showing up and doing it.
• 12:57
  There are plenty of stools.
• 12:59
  The group that I ought to cross with is very good about helping people
• 13:02
  out, and that's one thing I've noticed amongst the auto crossers is, you
• 13:05
  know, you're fighting the clock when you get right down to it and people
• 13:08
  are just very willing to help out.
• 13:10
  I mean, they'll help their competitors out if their car breaks and they're like,
• 13:13
  here's the part you need, put it on.
• 13:14
  Let's go a benevolent organization, if you will.
• 13:17
  They're, they're looking to help so the local people can help get you started.
• 13:20
  We have a driving class.
• 13:21
  Our, uh, club does the EVO schools that they do before most of the national event.
• 13:26
  So there's lots of ways to get training.
• 13:28
  The whole key is really just getting out there and getting
• 13:30
  behind the wheel and doing it to it.
• 13:31
  The Evo schools, you know, you're throwing a little bit of money at
• 13:34
  it, but like you said, autocross, I would jump into anybody's car.
• 13:38
  Not that I'm, you know, know what I'm doing, but I mean, anybody that
• 13:41
  has an idea of where to go could jump into anybody's passenger seat
• 13:45
  and just point and say, okay, left.
• 13:47
  Well, you know, look to the right or whatever and give
• 13:49
  somebody directions, whereas.
• 13:51
  A track day, I'm probably not gonna jump in your car and, you know, and, and let
• 13:55
  you go full, you know, so autocross, you can have somebody sitting in the
• 13:58
  passenger seat telling you where to go, what to do, and how to do it, basically.
• 14:02
  So I gotta give a shout out though, the era that Tom came up in same era that
• 14:05
  my dad came up in and autocross, he went to the Dick Turner Autocross School.
• 14:09
  You could still find a lot of those classic eighties autocross training
• 14:13
  videos out there on YouTube and whatnot.
• 14:15
  We're gonna link to that in the show notes, so shout out to them.
• 14:18
  But to your point, there's the Evo schools, a bunch of other ones.
• 14:20
  If you wanna learn really about autocross, you show up, like you said,
• 14:23
  with 50 bucks or whatever it is, and a car with a battery that's tied down.
• 14:27
  Really.
• 14:27
  You just gotta show up.
• 14:28
  You'll show up and there'll be somebody there with, you know, their mom's Tercel
• 14:32
  or what you see kids bringing out their, whatever, you know, whatever their
• 14:36
  parents happen to have, and bring it out there and drive it and see what happens.
• 14:39
  Autocross seems to be a little bit more open than say, track events
• 14:44
  where, you know, we have the broomstick test and this test and it can't be a
• 14:47
  convertible and this other thing and up and down and PDQ and it can't be an
• 14:50
  SUV, you know, all that kind of stuff.
• 14:52
  It's more inviting.
• 14:53
  You got a card to your point and it's got a battery tie down, let's go.
• 14:56
  Let's have some fun.
• 14:57
  And even the coaching style isn't nearly as formal, right?
• 15:00
  I don't ever hear about certified CROs, coaches like there are on the track side
• 15:05
  of the world, you know, everything's so.
• 15:07
  Regimented and political when you go to the track world, right?
• 15:10
  It's very different, but obviously the speeds are higher, safety's a bigger
• 15:13
  concern, you know, things like that.
• 15:14
  We'll dive into the safety of Otter Cross as we go through the conversation,
• 15:17
  but that's good to know, right?
• 15:18
  Just run what you brung as they used to say, right?
• 15:21
  Come out, have a good time, and learn something new.
• 15:23
  And that's usually when you get bit by the Otter Cross bugged.
• 15:26
  It's almost like, like I've said before, it's like golf, right?
• 15:29
  17 really crappy holes, and it's that one run, that one hole that
• 15:33
  makes a difference and then it brings you back every time, right?
• 15:36
  I'll echo it again.
• 15:37
  The first time you're driving on the street, after you've been autocrossing
• 15:40
  for a while, if something happens.
• 15:43
  You put your autocross skills to use to avoid an accident, you're like, Hey,
• 15:47
  you know, this is worth it from, uh, not just a fun perspective, but, you
• 15:50
  know, staying alive on the, uh, on the, on the streets, on the mean streets.
• 15:54
  Right.
• 15:55
  My wife also drives a GTO with me, co drives it and, you know, she had a Jeep
• 16:00
  Cherokee daily driver, California, of course, all the best drivers out there.
• 16:05
  Not on the freeways though.
• 16:06
  So, you know, some sort of freeway snafu.
• 16:09
  You know, somebody parks their car in front of her and she,
• 16:12
  you know, does basically a Chicago box with a Jeep Cherokee.
• 16:15
  And she says, man, that guy that, you know, he pulled out in front
• 16:18
  of me, you know, 'cause it was on a on ramp, right on ramp stuff going.
• 16:22
  She's like, I noticed I was on the gas.
• 16:24
  As I was, you know?
• 16:26
  Right.
• 16:27
  So she ga gassed it out, you know, the Jeep started to lean a little bit.
• 16:30
  She just gassed it and you know, added steering input.
• 16:33
  And she's like, so I noticed I had my foot on the floor going around the on ramp.
• 16:37
  I'm like, well, that's good.
• 16:39
  You didn't run into anybody.
• 16:40
  You didn't flip junkie old 200,000 mile.
• 16:43
  If she had not been autocrossing, that would've likely been an accident.
• 16:46
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:47
  I was happy she raced with me.
• 16:49
  And I think the thread we could pull out of that is one of the things that
• 16:52
  Autocross teaches you, even though the speeds aren't nearly as high as say
• 16:55
  like a track lap, is that you find the limit of your vehicle very quickly and
• 17:00
  then you can work backwards from that.
• 17:01
  And so even at that lower speed, you know, kinda limited, let's
• 17:04
  say the second gear, third gear on, on some courses, on some lots.
• 17:07
  I mean, you can still get the car outta shape and then learn how to walk back
• 17:11
  from that, which is really, really good.
• 17:12
  Definitely learn the limits of braking.
• 17:14
  I mean, you definitely learn the limits of braking and you know, braking and steering
• 17:19
  that they don't normally go together.
• 17:21
  You mentioned that in Chicago Boxes side.
• 17:23
  I remember.
• 17:24
  I can remember.
• 17:24
  You know, it's funny, maybe you had a similar experience, but I
• 17:27
  remember the day that the Auto Cross thing slowed down for me.
• 17:31
  I was charging into a Chicago box.
• 17:34
  I was breaking a hundred percent.
• 17:35
  I was turning a hundred percent.
• 17:37
  So that means I was basically going straight, I was heading
• 17:40
  towards the back of the box.
• 17:41
  And you know, these things aren't that big.
• 17:42
  And I remember having the thought, you know, Hey knucklehead,
• 17:45
  take your foot off the brake.
• 17:46
  And I did.
• 17:47
  And the car turned.
• 17:48
  But it, it was weird because normally I, by the time I would've had the thought
• 17:51
  about taking my foot off the brake, I would've been through the back of the
• 17:53
  Chicago box making the workers run.
• 17:55
  It was literally like a, almost like a switch flip, where suddenly
• 17:59
  at that point forward, the cones weren't coming at me as quickly.
• 18:02
  I mean, it just slowed down.
• 18:04
  But you guys mentioned something a couple times this Chicago box, and people
• 18:07
  were probably thinking, what is this?
• 18:08
  What is this box?
• 18:09
  What?
• 18:09
  There's boxes on the parking lot now.
• 18:11
  It's a type of gate.
• 18:13
  And so autocross uses a series of gates, you know, um, decision
• 18:16
  cone gates, slaloms, increasing, decreasing, all these kinds of things.
• 18:21
  And so we outlined that as well.
• 18:22
  There's a link in the show notes that to kind of better explain what our
• 18:25
  guests here are talking about tonight.
• 18:26
  But what I wanna kind of address is when you see an autocross course.
• 18:31
  It's really intimidating.
• 18:33
  People often joke that it's just a sea of cones and there is a rhyme
• 18:37
  and reason to this layout, and that's the point that I'm getting here too.
• 18:40
  When we're talking about Chicago boxes and Slaloms and so on.
• 18:42
  Obviously the goal is to navigate the course any way
• 18:45
  you can as quickly as possible.
• 18:47
  And Tom alluded to this, the cones kind of define the boundary, but not
• 18:52
  necessarily the path you need to take.
• 18:53
  What should someone expect to learn or get out of this discipline of autocross
• 18:59
  and how do you reshape it based on driving style and car and things like that?
• 19:04
  Some courses like, you know, I've done good guys and my company,
• 19:08
  they had a real small lot.
• 19:09
  I mean, some courses are literally a sea of cones and the only
• 19:14
  line you can really drive is.
• 19:16
  Inside of those cones, but it's really hard to tell where the corners are
• 19:20
  because there's so many cones and you just, you get lost the, the cone in
• 19:23
  the front versus the cone in the back.
• 19:25
  And we're gonna talk about walking the course, but I mean, sometimes
• 19:28
  you have so many cones that you know you really need to pay attention.
• 19:32
  As far as your preparation for the course.
• 19:34
  The first field that you have to develop, you're gonna succeed at autocross
• 19:38
  is making sure you're in control of your eyes and where you're looking.
• 19:41
  So, you know, when you look at that sea of cones, there may be 25 cones
• 19:45
  out there that are defining a couple of features you're gonna have to go through.
• 19:49
  But there's probably gonna be like five or six of those cones that you
• 19:52
  really need to be paying attention to, separating the week from the chaff and
• 19:55
  just training your eyes to look ahead.
• 19:57
  All across speeds, say 30 miles an hour, you're going about 45 feet per second.
• 20:02
  So if you're looking close to the front of the car, if you're
• 20:05
  not looking 50 feet ahead.
• 20:07
  You're essentially looking at stuff that's already happened.
• 20:09
  First primary skill thing I harp on when I'm talking to uh, uh,
• 20:12
  novices is make sure that you're looking in the right place.
• 20:17
  And to your point, Tom, you mentioned earlier about working the course and
• 20:20
  watching from that vantage point.
• 20:22
  When I would work the course, I would always laugh because I could always
• 20:25
  tell when somebody was driving what we call gate to gate, they could
• 20:28
  only see the gate that's basically right in front of the car and they
• 20:31
  couldn't see the path in front of 'em.
• 20:32
  Somehow.
• 20:32
  They like a rat finding the cheese at the end of the maze.
• 20:35
  They made it to the end without going off course and, and all that kind of stuff.
• 20:39
  It's just interesting how we all visualize the course differently.
• 20:43
  And I always felt, and I don't know about you guys, if you ever done the events
• 20:46
  where they chalk the boundary of, of the course, I feel like that's cheating.
• 20:49
  Like it just makes it too easy.
• 20:52
  But it seems like when we do that, there's always a few places where the
• 20:56
  chalk, it winds up going away because.
• 20:59
  That's not really a boundary on the course, it's just sort of a guideline.
• 21:02
  That's right.
• 21:03
  And, you know, you probably, uh, uh, need to go out a little bit to,
• 21:05
  uh, get around a particular cone.
• 21:07
  So, uh, so I'm with you.
• 21:08
  Sometimes I feel like the chalking of it causes a problem 'cause people
• 21:12
  think that that is a boundary.
• 21:13
  Sometimes, you know, they'll throw in an extra cone just to create that boundary,
• 21:18
  or they'll throw in a, a cone of 10 or 15 feet back from the alleged apex as
• 21:24
  opposed to on what would be a good apex.
• 21:26
  So, I mean, sometimes the course designers, they're not throwing
• 21:29
  out cones there to give you the nice, pleasant experience.
• 21:33
  You know, some of those guys are good at making you, uh, envision some sort
• 21:38
  of a magic cone or a, or your imaginary cone or whatever, and Chicago box, or a
• 21:43
  slalom or whatever you need to get from, you know, one element to the other and
• 21:47
  then tie 'em together in some sort of a fashion that is conducive to a good time.
• 21:51
  And that's actually a really good point that you bring up because I
• 21:54
  find myself doing that at track days as well, especially in time trials,
• 21:58
  which we'll elaborate on a little bit here, is that I almost visualize that
• 22:01
  there are cones on certain tracks.
• 22:03
  I mean, we could use Shenandoah Circuit at Summit Point as a prime example.
• 22:06
  There's parts of that track that you would ignore, just like if it
• 22:10
  was a slalom at an honor cross.
• 22:11
  And so you have to reshape the course sometimes that it's not just about
• 22:15
  track in Apex and track out it's, my car doesn't wanna do this this way.
• 22:20
  I need to reshape the boundary, utilize the asphalt I have available
• 22:24
  and make, pretend that there's one of these cone like obstacles there
• 22:27
  to kind of set up the car mentally.
• 22:28
  So being able to visualize that is super important.
• 22:31
  Obviously, you know, we touch on the fact that autocross teaches you car control.
• 22:35
  The basics of under steer, over steer neutral, steer, all that kind of stuff.
• 22:38
  I think there's more to it than that.
• 22:40
  It's all about steering input more than anything.
• 22:44
  And there's a bigger debate to be had, which is fixed.
• 22:48
  Versus shuffle.
• 22:49
  So who wants to take that on with a chuckle?
• 22:52
  They both chuckled at this one.
• 22:53
  I like to set my cars up with fast steering so that, uh, I
• 22:57
  may be able to, uh, not, I can, you know, not have to shuffle.
• 23:00
  I find that I, when I do have to shuffle, I tends to set up earlier in the turn.
• 23:05
  So I think I used kind of a hybrid approach of the two techniques.
• 23:08
  I would have to agree that knowing where your hands are at all the time, you
• 23:12
  know, I'm not one of the guys that that will pretzel my arms over each other
• 23:15
  trying to do the turn, but having the race car steering wheel with the little
• 23:20
  red stripe, you know, this way up.
• 23:22
  Type deal.
• 23:23
  You know, it's always good to know which way you're going and
• 23:25
  that's just your natural, you know, return to center point as far as
• 23:29
  how much turning you're do doing.
• 23:30
  But being a GTO Pontiac guy, you really gotta know how to shuffle because if you
• 23:35
  can't do a donut and go and still put in a good time and autocross a good time on
• 23:41
  the clock, then you know you're really not driving and that takes shuffle.
• 23:46
  So I agree with both of you that I think there's a hybrid approach to this and
• 23:50
  watch anybody's in-car video, whether it's an autocross or track event.
• 23:54
  First thing they're gonna comment on is your hand placement.
• 23:56
  And it's like, well, first of all, did we get through there safely?
• 23:59
  Do we get through there fast?
• 24:00
  Yes.
• 24:00
  So doesn't really matter.
• 24:01
  I mean, I can sit here and watch pro racers.
• 24:03
  I, I've commented hundreds of times about Hurley Haywood and Hauck and
• 24:07
  Terry Neville, and they shuffle, but then they don't, but then they do.
• 24:11
  And to your point, I think it all depends on the situation, the corner,
• 24:13
  where the car is, if you're trying to react to it, things like that.
• 24:17
  But I believe there's a third option.
• 24:19
  And to your point, it's about presetting your hands and then basically putting
• 24:22
  the steering wheel exactly where you want it and then bringing it back to center.
• 24:26
  And so it's a mix of both fixed and shuffle steering.
• 24:29
  And I'm sure we could do an entire episode on that by itself.
• 24:32
  But I wanted to bring it up because it's important that CROs
• 24:35
  teaches you about hand placement.
• 24:37
  And then after that.
• 24:38
  Well first eyes hand placement and then it's all throttle control at that point.
• 24:43
  'cause some cars you are gonna throttle, steer.
• 24:45
  And Tom, that's especially important in your little Miata.
• 24:48
  Absolutely.
• 24:49
  Well, I had a Corvette that was, uh, a big throttle steering car as well.
• 24:53
  There's multiple facets that have to be sort of mastered, or at least
• 24:56
  you gotta get reasonably good at.
• 24:58
  You know, I think it's a challenge that goes on.
• 25:00
  I mean, I've been doing this for, you know, like I said, 13 years
• 25:03
  now, and I still feel like I have plenty of improvement to go.
• 25:06
  I have firmly proven to myself, to my competitor that I'm a
• 25:10
  slightly above average driver.
• 25:13
  I like the way you put that.
• 25:14
  That was very well done.
• 25:15
  So, uh, you know, I keep trying to get better.
• 25:17
  I, I think I do.
• 25:18
  I get a little better every year.
• 25:19
  To me, that's kind of what's so interesting about it.
• 25:22
  And I see these people that come in and are naturals and just come
• 25:27
  in and go from novices to winning.
• 25:29
  A couple of seasons and, you know, most of those folks move
• 25:32
  on and do something different.
• 25:34
  I, I guess they feel like they've mastered it, they get bored.
• 25:36
  Uh, I have not gotten bored yet.
• 25:38
  That's a good thing.
• 25:39
  Yeah.
• 25:39
  Being mediocre means you need to hang out longer to, your claim to
• 25:43
  fame is that you'll be around long enough that all the people that beat
• 25:46
  you might die before you and then Well, and I mean, I'm there with you.
• 25:51
  I'm waiting.
• 25:52
  So we, we have a guy un unfortunately he did pass away, uh, year before last,
• 25:56
  but he was well into his eighties.
• 25:58
  He was, uh, still auto crossing with us.
• 26:00
  He went as fast as he was.
• 26:01
  He had auto cross for a long time.
• 26:03
  But, you know, it was still kind of fun because, you know, young guys
• 26:07
  would come in and, and they'd race in his class and, you know, he'd beat him
• 26:10
  by two seconds and, which is an eon.
• 26:13
  And I always wanted to go over to him and say, Hey man, you realize
• 26:15
  that your granddad or maybe even your great-granddad just beat you at autocross.
• 26:19
  So I thought it was kind of fun that this guy could come out.
• 26:22
  He would put his age as his number on the car, and then he stopped.
• 26:27
  He was worried people were gonna get, you know, kind of nervous when
• 26:29
  it was like 89 or 90 on the car.
• 26:32
  But you know, he did this for a lifetime, you know, and I think that's pretty cool.
• 26:36
  We've hinted at this earlier in the episode, one of the most important
• 26:40
  things every Autocrosser learns outside of the car control and things we just
• 26:44
  discussed, is how to visualize the course.
• 26:46
  Right?
• 26:46
  And that requires you to do something that Tom mentioned,
• 26:50
  which is walking the course.
• 26:52
  Why is walking the course so important?
• 26:55
  Why should you not skip out on that?
• 26:56
  First of all, I mean, it's not a racetrack or a drag strip.
• 27:00
  You'll likely never see the same.
• 27:03
  Autocross course twice.
• 27:05
  So that means you got three runs at the least.
• 27:07
  So there's your minute and a half total to throw down your,
• 27:10
  you know, your first place run.
• 27:12
  So you gotta go in with a plan because you know you're never gonna see that exact
• 27:16
  same course, likely never see it again.
• 27:19
  Definitely won't be the same pavement temperatures, same tires, same whatever.
• 27:23
  So the, the walk is the very first part of trying to memorize that course and
• 27:28
  coming up with a plan that you try to execute on that fir very first run.
• 27:33
  You don't have a warmup run, you don't have a bunch of sighting laps.
• 27:36
  There's no time trials.
• 27:38
  You get three to five runs, six.
• 27:39
  I mean, it depends on the club, but you know, nationals is, is three runs.
• 27:43
  Right.
• 27:44
  So you get three to get it done.
• 27:45
  Yeah.
• 27:45
  If you get out and blow it on your first run, then the heat is on.
• 27:49
  You gotta get out there and eyeball the course.
• 27:51
  To me, it, it always seems, you know, most of the national stuff flows pretty
• 27:55
  good, but there's always a couple places you're gonna need to do something.
• 27:59
  I say is unnatural, and you gotta identify those places and have a
• 28:02
  plan to get through those features.
• 28:04
  And typically those are the ones where maybe there's not a lot of
• 28:07
  points of reference, things like that.
• 28:09
  Those are the features that win or lose the event.
• 28:12
  And that's something I still struggle with, is really coming up with
• 28:15
  a plan that, you know, survives first contact with the course.
• 28:18
  Uh, you know, I'm, I'm always mooching off of the guys, find out who drives
• 28:21
  well and who will put up with me, right?
• 28:23
  That's another, that's a smaller group of people.
• 28:26
  And then start bugging those guys and walking the course walks with
• 28:30
  'em, you know, and they normally walk right where they're driving.
• 28:33
  Uh, you know, the guy I having to be hanging out with now, you
• 28:36
  know, I'll be like, Hey, I, I don't think you really know the course.
• 28:38
  Maybe you can talk through it while you're walking, which is fine.
• 28:42
  But then, you know, we'll get back to the start and he'll say, okay.
• 28:45
  Repeat the course back to me, right.
• 28:47
  And I'll be like, I don't, I think there's a left somewhere, you know?
• 28:51
  And he'll say, okay, you know, you're, you know, and he goes through the whole
• 28:54
  course in his head without looking at the course, and he says it out loud
• 28:57
  to me what he's gonna do late Apex, early apex, when he is gonna break
• 29:01
  what, you know, what he is looking at, which corner he is gonna throw away.
• 29:04
  And he, you know, just blurts it out.
• 29:06
  And he says, okay, let's walk again.
• 29:08
  And then I'll repeat about half the course and then we'll walk again.
• 29:10
  I'm a slow learner.
• 29:11
  So then after maybe three times I can say my plan out loud.
• 29:15
  And then at least when I get in the car, I have a plan.
• 29:18
  It might not be the plan, but you, you gotta have a plan
• 29:20
  when you get in the seat.
• 29:21
  I'm with you.
• 29:22
  It's, it is to me, it's like you, uh, hopefully won't make any huge mistakes.
• 29:26
  So you sort of chip away at the time, you know, that's the thing, when, when
• 29:30
  I get data, compare it with people that drive faster than me, typically it's not
• 29:34
  one huge mistake that I need to correct.
• 29:36
  They're just a little bit faster.
• 29:39
  Finally have realized that it's all about chipping away.
• 29:41
  It's about, you know, you save half a second by finding tents
• 29:45
  in the hundreds, literally of a second out there on the horse.
• 29:48
  And that's what separates the winners from the losers.
• 29:50
  They're getting on the gas just a smidge earlier than you, which gives
• 29:53
  them a couple more miles per hour leaving the corner and a couple more
• 29:56
  coming into the corner and yeah.
• 29:58
  Right.
• 29:58
  Placement for the right speed.
• 30:00
  Yep.
• 30:00
  So on average, how many times do you guys walk the course?
• 30:03
  Well, depending on the course and length, and if they allow bicycles,
• 30:07
  I mean, the, the course I'm at now, I, you know, you can walk it
• 30:11
  three times pretty quick and easy.
• 30:13
  When I was racing on a, the, uh, backup for the shuttle landing
• 30:17
  airfield, they allowed bikes.
• 30:19
  So you'd ride your bike maybe twice and you, you know, you're,
• 30:22
  that's enough exercise for the day.
• 30:24
  Right.
• 30:24
  So, I mean, if you can walk it two times, it's my minimum.
• 30:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:28
  I don't know about you, Tom.
• 30:29
  I walk it as many times as I could stand it.
• 30:31
  I went to an event in Bristol, Tennessee a while ago and had my, uh, you know,
• 30:35
  my handy Danny Apple watch on there.
• 30:37
  And it was a pro solo, it was a four day event, and over those four days, I, I
• 30:42
  believe it was, I walked almost 30 miles.
• 30:44
  It was crazy because we walked and walked and walked the courses and we were in
• 30:48
  the situation where we could actually walk it sort of during the event once.
• 30:51
  So yeah, I, I will walk it as many times as I can.
• 30:54
  So, do you guys also use maps?
• 30:56
  Do you make notes?
• 30:57
  Anything like that?
• 30:58
  I don't.
• 30:59
  I try to, just, like I said, when I'm out there walking the course, I'm trying to
• 31:03
  figure out where I'm gonna be looking, and I find if I'm looking in the right
• 31:06
  place, the path sort of works itself out.
• 31:09
  I don't have to be totally focused on that.
• 31:11
  If I'm just looking in the right place, things tend to fall in place.
• 31:13
  But there are, like I mentioned, typically two or three, four places.
• 31:17
  That you're gonna have to do something that might seem, you know, a little weird.
• 31:21
  And I bring up the map and I don't normally express my opinions when I'm at
• 31:24
  a track event, but I usually smirk when people are handed a map of the course.
• 31:28
  I'm like, you can see that the turn goes left.
• 31:30
  I mean, I, I don't know what you need a map for and I understand why
• 31:33
  it's okay, but when you get to an autocross, I feel like you're pelli
• 31:37
  looking for the fountain of youth.
• 31:39
  You need some sort of reference sometimes when you're standing in the Chicago
• 31:43
  box and you turn around and go, where the heck am I in the sea of cones?
• 31:46
  I just wanna express to people that there's these other
• 31:48
  tools that you can use, right?
• 31:50
  Obviously there's software you can use now on your, your smart watch to map out
• 31:54
  the course if you need to see it that way.
• 31:56
  Make notes, you know, there's paper maps always available, but walking
• 31:59
  the course, the more you repeat it to your guys' point is the way it's
• 32:02
  gonna cement it into your head.
• 32:04
  But it also draws a very interesting parallel to another form of
• 32:08
  motorsport, which is rally.
• 32:09
  Right.
• 32:10
  If you look at World Rally to Todd's point, they never see the
• 32:12
  same course twice, and they have a set of hieroglyphs for notes with a
• 32:16
  navigator telling them where to go.
• 32:18
  But CROs and Rally are very similar in that you get one sighting pass in
• 32:23
  a passenger car to figure out where the course goes, and then you're
• 32:26
  supposed to, you know, do the whole thing in 130 miles an hour wide open.
• 32:30
  It translates.
• 32:31
  It's kind of interesting how, again, the, there's crossover between
• 32:35
  autocross and other disciplines of, of Motorsport out there.
• 32:38
  Tom uses some sort of data.
• 32:39
  I have some sort of data thing, you know, and I tried carrying
• 32:41
  that around once and then.
• 32:43
  Sort of looking at the map that distracted me.
• 32:45
  I, you know, I know a, a couple guys that are really good at it,
• 32:49
  they take a video around the course.
• 32:51
  They're just, as they're walking, they take the video and it's, it's a really
• 32:54
  good time to interject funny stuff into their video and moon them or whatever.
• 32:58
  But one guy I know does that has video.
• 33:01
  Another guy, you know, 'cause you're going to the same place over and over.
• 33:04
  He'll have, you know, like a Google photo or a Earth View photo or something and
• 33:08
  he just draws the map in real quick.
• 33:10
  My former workplace, they would set up the course with a map.
• 33:14
  It's a known course.
• 33:15
  You could just have the printed off copy of the map and, and what they actually
• 33:19
  laid out, I think, not nationals, but some events have maps of the course that you
• 33:23
  can at least take a note and say, oh, I wanna remember break here, or whatever.
• 33:27
  You know, I'm trying to always try to keep things in my memory, but
• 33:31
  I don't have time to look at 'em, write 'em down or watch video.
• 33:33
  But maybe that works for somebody else.
• 33:35
  I think an overhead map, you know, you don't get the same sort of visual.
• 33:39
  Picture to do when you're, when you're driving or walking the course.
• 33:43
  It can even be a little bit weird going from the walk to the drive
• 33:46
  too, depending on, you know, how low your car is, those sorts of things.
• 33:49
  Like I said, I'm always mooching off of people that are driving better than me.
• 33:52
  And first guy that she, he's like, okay, you're like six, whatever, you know?
• 33:55
  How tall are you sitting in that Trans Am?
• 33:57
  And I'm like, I'm about belly button height.
• 33:59
  He's like, okay, squat down, you know?
• 34:01
  And he'd point, he'd say, okay, see that dip in the road?
• 34:03
  And you see the, so yeah, def, it's definitely different, different
• 34:07
  heights and different speeds and yeah, all of this is very true, but I'm
• 34:11
  coming at this from behind the scenes because my dad was a big autocrosser.
• 34:15
  He was also autocross chair for different regions and different
• 34:17
  clubs and things like that.
• 34:18
  I always got to see it from the Friday night after dinner as he sat
• 34:23
  down with an 11 by 17 sheet of paper and mapped out what the course.
• 34:27
  That he was gonna design.
• 34:29
  To your point, Todd, about follow the fast guys, here's another top tip.
• 34:34
  Go ask the course designer for the map and what he was thinking when he drew it on
• 34:39
  a piece of paper because he had something in mind when he laid the course out.
• 34:43
  So there's another kind of like, Hey, look at it from that perspective too.
• 34:46
  Or maybe think about the course designer drives a Miata, I wonder if this
• 34:50
  course is geared for his car and not for the GTO or something like that.
• 34:54
  I mean, they're never geared for the GTO, but let's face it, right?
• 34:58
  But just some top tips there.
• 34:59
  Something that's just like an CROs course.
• 35:01
  Think outside of the box a little bit in terms of strategy and how you might
• 35:05
  pick up a 10th or two by asking different questions and talking to different people.
• 35:09
  And that leads us into the next part, which is when you get down to
• 35:13
  it, autocross can be really complex from the classing to the scoring,
• 35:17
  to data, to the prep, all of that.
• 35:19
  And actually I wanna ex. Expand upon Tom's comment about data because
• 35:23
  we're used to running data at the track with things like an AIM solo
• 35:27
  where we're looking at, you know, individual corners and braking speeds
• 35:30
  and exit speeds and things like that.
• 35:32
  How does data work on the autocross side?
• 35:34
  If you're on a track, right, you could take data.
• 35:37
  Analyzing that data might be useful for the next time you go to that track.
• 35:41
  'cause if the track's not gonna change with autocross doing sort
• 35:45
  of the postmortem I think helps you identify your mistakes, but it really
• 35:49
  doesn't give you an opportunity to go correct that particular mistake.
• 35:53
  Getting the data consumable in between runs is a, a tricky thing.
• 35:58
  I find it sometimes and it can be sort of distracting in many cases.
• 36:02
  Just looking at my video and seeing where I messed up is the
• 36:04
  best thing during the event.
• 36:06
  But there's some guys, and I'm trying to get better at this, that are really good.
• 36:10
  At comparing paths and, you know, really refining their technique during the event.
• 36:15
  So to me that's the, the big challenge with Auto Cross is it helps to look
• 36:19
  later, but you're, you know, that's, like I say, it's sort of a postmortem
• 36:22
  you that, that data, you'll have to learn what you did wrong and try not to
• 36:26
  make that mistake on the next course.
• 36:28
  But you're not gonna be able to say, well I should have been
• 36:29
  two inches closer to that cone.
• 36:31
  'cause the course is gonna be totally different the next, or at least
• 36:34
  different enough that the data's not gonna be any good for the next event.
• 36:38
  Yeah.
• 36:39
  As a mediocre drivers, Tom and I, you know, and then being overwhelmed with
• 36:43
  data, the thing I have, it can compare the two laps, you know, show you
• 36:47
  which element you got through faster.
• 36:49
  Or maybe you come in and you have a really fast time and you have no idea.
• 36:54
  Like I didn't change anything from the first lap, so maybe the data
• 36:58
  can pick out where I slowed down or where I really picked up some time.
• 37:01
  You know, maybe I just chose just a slightly different path.
• 37:04
  And then, like Tom was saying, that you know, the postmortem looking at
• 37:07
  your videos, you can say, oh geez, look at how late I am getting on the gas.
• 37:11
  Or, you know, I'm not looking ahead, or I'm way off the cones, or I'm
• 37:16
  turning too slow, or whatever.
• 37:17
  So, I mean, the data is kind of multifaceted, but sticking your head
• 37:21
  in into that iPad or laptop or whatever you got is, it's really tough to do,
• 37:27
  especially if you're co-driving, right?
• 37:28
  You're busting just trying to get the tires cooled down, the pressure's
• 37:32
  done, the seat belt's done, and then there's no time for data.
• 37:35
  So, I mean, don't count on it.
• 37:36
  You know, even a sunny day can make it difficult.
• 37:39
  You need to go find some shady area to, to even be able to really look
• 37:42
  and see the tablet appropriately.
• 37:44
  I have looked at some people's fast guy, right?
• 37:47
  Run over to his car.
• 37:48
  Push the buttons on the camera and watch his video real quick.
• 37:52
  And I'll say, oh, he's using that imaginary cone where, you
• 37:56
  know, where I'm running through the chalk line or something.
• 37:59
  You know what I mean?
• 37:59
  So you might be able to get something off of somebody I know at Nationals,
• 38:03
  first person out with the first video immediately puts that on
• 38:06
  YouTube or wherever, and people are watching that video trying
• 38:09
  to figure out what's going on.
• 38:11
  Did you say watch the video or delete his video?
• 38:13
  Which one was it exactly?
• 38:15
  Delete the video at the time doesn't count.
• 38:17
  Well, I wonder if you're ever gonna really address this, because we've
• 38:21
  had some folks, 'cause you know you get to walk the course the day before.
• 38:23
  Well, there's been some folks that have been taking advantage of some
• 38:26
  of these simulations capabilities.
• 38:28
  So they can take videos and sort of recreate the course in their
• 38:32
  simulation and go run a hundred runs in that course the night before.
• 38:36
  And I'm not sure what they're gonna do about that.
• 38:38
  There's been some debate over, uh, how to either embrace or, uh,
• 38:43
  prohibit that sort of technology move every cone six inches the next day.
• 38:47
  And it's all, you know.
• 38:49
  Right.
• 38:49
  Well, so the, you know, one of the things we did, uh, I may maybe we'll
• 38:52
  get into with classing and whatnot, but you know, there are some fairly
• 38:55
  strict rules about, you know, no, you're running the same heat, the same time,
• 38:59
  the same temperature as your competitors.
• 39:02
  You don't have all day to get it done.
• 39:03
  You know, you're all running at the same time.
• 39:05
  You know, the same heat, you don't get a extra look, you don't get to
• 39:08
  be a passenger and, and you know, and see the course at real speed.
• 39:11
  Right?
• 39:12
  You know, all that stuff.
• 39:13
  Then you add into what Tom is saying, you know, you got a simulation of the
• 39:16
  course with video from the course.
• 39:19
  You know, the guy holding the camera at belly button height walking.
• 39:23
  What he thinks is a good line.
• 39:24
  Yeah.
• 39:25
  Or a drone.
• 39:26
  Or a drone, right.
• 39:26
  Or whatever.
• 39:27
  I mean, it could be anything.
• 39:28
  Right.
• 39:28
  So, yeah.
• 39:29
  And you know, in some places they, you know, they don't let you ride
• 39:31
  bicycles because they don't want you to be able to get that momentum
• 39:35
  going and figure out, you know, what is a good line on a bicycle.
• 39:39
  So Tom, you talked about data, and it sounded like from a software
• 39:43
  perspective, is there a package or a software, something you're running
• 39:45
  on a phone or a tablet that you would recommend for somebody that wanted
• 39:48
  to try out recording their session?
• 39:50
  The reviews I've gotten from most of the phone-based apps have not been
• 39:53
  that great because, uh, normally the integrated GPS is really not fast enough.
• 39:58
  So I'm actually using a race capture system, which is a
• 40:02
  standalone data acquisition system.
• 40:04
  It's got a fast GPS on it, it has a set of accelerometer.
• 40:07
  So I get some, uh, data about, you know, how the car's moving, not just from
• 40:11
  the, uh, just from the GPS connected in with, um, it controls the camera.
• 40:15
  It's connected via CAM bus to the ECU.
• 40:18
  So, uh.
• 40:19
  So it's a pretty comprehensive system and it's, that's another
• 40:22
  one that's kind of interesting.
• 40:23
  'cause you know, that system was probably five or 600 bucks,
• 40:26
  which is not chunk change, but it's certainly not 10 years ago.
• 40:29
  That was probably a $20,000 setup.
• 40:32
  It's, uh, it's really kind of surprising how the technology, how,
• 40:35
  how accessible it is to us, uh, autocross and, and amateur race.
• 40:39
  It's educational too.
• 40:41
  It's been very interesting to me.
• 40:42
  Not just from, you know, the racing perspective, but the whole,
• 40:45
  uh, analyzing data, gathering data, learning about sensors.
• 40:49
  I mean, it's, that's, that's been a lot of fun for me.
• 40:51
  Gonna add, so I'm, I'm using a, a low dollar tablet and an app solo storm,
• 40:56
  which you can run on, you know, you can run that on your phone, but if
• 40:59
  you buy the, you know, the super duper package, it comes with a GPS device.
• 41:03
  And like you're saying, the, you know, just using your phone might be
• 41:06
  good enough if you want some data, you know, you're gonna have to end
• 41:09
  up adding some sort of sensors.
• 41:11
  Now on the other end, one of my friends is a, you know, retired Ford engineer
• 41:15
  that ran their racing program, you know, and he's got all sorts of data on his
• 41:19
  car, so he'll change tire sizes or, you know, make any minuscule change.
• 41:25
  And he's looking at difference in, you know, G-Force for stopping
• 41:29
  and turning and, and what his wheel speeds are over time.
• 41:33
  And, you know, just all sorts of.
• 41:34
  Crazy stuff, you know?
• 41:35
  And he is looking at changes in ride height during braking and grip forces
• 41:39
  and brake temperatures, brake pressures.
• 41:42
  So you know, you can use the phone and it might be useful maybe, right?
• 41:45
  Or you can go completely nuts.
• 41:47
  And you got, there's your 10 grand full, full race engineer.
• 41:49
  Yeah.
• 41:50
  Yeah.
• 41:50
  I mean it's, it's one end of the pendulum or the other.
• 41:52
  Something for our listeners to look into, and we did a previous episode on this
• 41:57
  and happens to be in your backyard, Tom.
• 41:59
  We had Andrew Rains on Break Fixx to talk about the Apex Pro.
• 42:04
  And as we compared that to other systems like the AIM and the
• 42:07
  Garmin and others, and he explained how the platform works, I found.
• 42:11
  Really good applicability for the Apex Pro in an autocross situation because it
• 42:15
  gives you that immediate feedback with the AI and the machine learning to tell you,
• 42:19
  you can go a little harder in this corner.
• 42:21
  Granted, at Autocross, everything moves really, really fast, but if you're
• 42:25
  able to record that and look at it the next time it's telling you your
• 42:28
  tires can give you a little bit more.
• 42:30
  Now you have that feedback between the first run and the second run and the,
• 42:34
  and the subsequent runs after that.
• 42:35
  So maybe that's something to look into as, as the bridge in the middle
• 42:38
  of these two ends of the spectrum.
• 42:40
  As you guys can see, it's pretty darn complicated, but it gets even
• 42:44
  more complex when we talk about.
• 42:47
  Classic.
• 42:47
  So who wants to explain how this all works within this kind of
• 42:51
  microcosm inside of autocross?
• 42:54
  I, I'll, I'll go first.
• 42:55
  I'll go first.
• 42:56
  I'll go first for my car.
• 42:57
  66 GTO.
• 42:59
  Classic American Muscle, you have to have finished interior and it
• 43:03
  can't be any bigger or smaller than factory dimensions for the, you
• 43:07
  know, overall width, height, size.
• 43:09
  Don't you have to have a 200 tread wear tire as well, right?
• 43:12
  Yes.
• 43:12
  200 tread wear tire.
• 43:13
  Yeah, that's actually a defining, you know, having that tread
• 43:16
  wear really is, you know what takes everything apart, right?
• 43:20
  If you had sticky tires, then you'd start worrying about a lot of other things.
• 43:23
  But yeah, so my class is pretty much run what you brung my first event, you know,
• 43:28
  I just got it on the road, no interior.
• 43:30
  And the way the rules were written, I just took that sharpie and I wrote,
• 43:34
  finished interior on the floor pan, you know, and the judge said, Hey,
• 43:39
  where's your finished interior?
• 43:41
  You know the rules say you have to have finished interior and I'm.
• 43:44
  It's right there and he looks at it and he goes, yep, that's finished interior.
• 43:49
  So let me take a basic question to this, which is, what class do you run in Todd?
• 43:54
  Classic American Muscle.
• 43:56
  Oh, okay.
• 43:58
  Traditional kmt.
• 43:58
  Yes, it's kt.
• 43:59
  Okay.
• 43:59
  There's a lot more classes now than in the old school days when it
• 44:02
  was showroom stock, stock street, prepared, prepared and modified.
• 44:07
  Those were the, let's call those the top level domains of classes in R Cross.
• 44:12
  Right?
• 44:12
  Yeah.
• 44:12
  Then you have all these splinter groups inside of there.
• 44:14
  My class cam really started, because you know, now it's up to year 2048 to 2000.
• 44:20
  Some of the classes kind of started getting less, uh, showings.
• 44:23
  ESP doesn't even run anymore, I don't think.
• 44:26
  You know, the CSP guys, all those guys with the sort of race car
• 44:29
  classic cars, and then there's a lot of dudes with muscle cars that
• 44:33
  wanted to come and do something.
• 44:34
  So they tried to get a set of rules that you could just bring that classic car,
• 44:38
  whether it's 20 years old or 40 years old.
• 44:40
  Bring that out, you know, and have some fun with it in a class, right?
• 44:44
  So I mean, that was, you know, my class is a little bit different than, say, Tom's
• 44:47
  mine is sort of like, Hey, we're trying to get people that already have a car.
• 44:51
  Here's a car.
• 44:52
  Try to get those guys out here, the good guys, autocross, the
• 44:55
  racing birds, the optimal ultimate streetcar and stuff like that.
• 44:59
  I mean, those guys want, you know, wanna play in SECA.
• 45:02
  So that's what my class really came from, is trying to get that, that group in as
• 45:07
  opposed to Toms, the variety that you see in those classes is always interesting.
• 45:12
  I mean, the limiting factor basically is the 200 tread wear tire.
• 45:15
  Uh, and you know, those few things, like you said, finish interior,
• 45:17
  a few other odds and ends, but it's Katie, borrow the door.
• 45:19
  Otherwise, if you wanna put up.
• 45:21
  9,000 horsepower engine in your car, have at it.
• 45:23
  You probably won't be able to put it down with a 200 tread wear tire, but
• 45:27
  nobody's gonna say you can't run into class as far as classes go, just there's
• 45:30
  a street class, a similar street class can use 200 tread wear tires as well.
• 45:35
  There's a whole crop of tires that really blossomed around this, uh, this
• 45:39
  sport and around that t wear rating.
• 45:41
  You know, you can make some changes.
• 45:43
  You can do some slight changes on the wheels.
• 45:45
  You can, you know, put a cat pack exhaust on it, you know, you
• 45:48
  can change your shock absorbers.
• 45:50
  You know, there's, so there's, it's not just straight up as it
• 45:53
  rolled off the showroom floor.
• 45:55
  That's the street class and it goes all the way from Super Street all
• 45:58
  the way down to I think H Street.
• 46:00
  The Super Street cars are the fastest ones.
• 46:02
  The H streets are the slowest to an extent.
• 46:04
  They try to group cars together that are.
• 46:07
  Similar in their performance capabilities.
• 46:09
  Then you move into, uh, like street prepared, which I'm in, and
• 46:13
  there's really not a whole lot of street left in street prepared.
• 46:15
  I mean, uh, I, I run a 15 by by 11 wheel on a 2 75 tire.
• 46:22
  I had to cut the fenders, the air conditioners out.
• 46:24
  You take the radio out.
• 46:26
  I, I replaced, uh, the seats with racing seats.
• 46:28
  I mean, it's, it's pretty, it's not a very comfortable car to drive on the street.
• 46:31
  It's got very stiff springs, crazy shock absorbers.
• 46:35
  You know, you can do a lot of stuff.
• 46:36
  You really can't get inside the engine and do very much.
• 46:39
  But at the stuff on the outside of the engine intake and exhaust, all
• 46:42
  that stuff is basically unlimited.
• 46:44
  Uh, my turbocharged you can't fool around with the factory turbocharger, but you
• 46:49
  can fool around with the boost control.
• 46:52
  So, uh, there are some advantages, there's some opportunities to build a
• 46:55
  horsepower there, and I'm, I'm skipping over a few of the classes, but then you
• 46:58
  get into some of the mod classes and that gets even crazier where you can chop the
• 47:02
  windshield off, you can get the interiors.
• 47:05
  You know, really get the cars very lightweight.
• 47:07
  So, but there is a proliferation of classes and I think some of these
• 47:10
  attempts, like the um, CAM stuff, there's some street touring classes.
• 47:15
  The idea there was to try to maybe have a class that more cars could
• 47:19
  run in, but they really haven't eliminated any classes along the way.
• 47:22
  So, well, they also didn't know where to put all the WRX STIs either.
• 47:26
  They had to build STX around those cars.
• 47:28
  'cause where else were you gonna put an all-wheel drive, four cylinder turbo car?
• 47:31
  It just didn't make sense.
• 47:32
  Well, they were in, uh, they were in my class for a while and, and
• 47:35
  the B Street prepared, they moved them up to a street prepared.
• 47:38
  And I was kind of glad to see that because, uh, at that point time
• 47:41
  I was driving a, uh, my big heady Corvette and I, it was hopeless.
• 47:44
  Uh, yeah, it, it's, it's really kind of sad because, uh, the street prepared
• 47:48
  classes especially I think have, um, you know, and this is not a knock on
• 47:52
  cam, but, but a lot of the ones that had the Detroit iron in 'em, if you will,
• 47:56
  those classes really have suffered.
• 47:57
  'cause people have moved over to cam.
• 47:59
  They, s's not the right word, but they're less attended.
• 48:01
  They're really trying to do a similar thing with this SB and excess a, I
• 48:06
  believe they're calling it now, which is gonna be essentially cam for imports.
• 48:10
  When you get right down to it, you know, my problem is I'm
• 48:13
  hooked on the purple crack, man.
• 48:14
  I got to have my Hoosiers, I mean, I wanna be running on any 200 trigger tires.
• 48:19
  To me, that's the detractor or the, the thing that keeps me out
• 48:22
  of the uh, CAM and or S-V-X-S-A.
• 48:26
  I find that I see the limitations of the 200 tread wear tires.
• 48:30
  But as far as with an open CLA where you can do, like you're saying, I have
• 48:34
  the low, I have 400 horsepower, right?
• 48:36
  So I'm probably the lowest horsepower car out there where I came from,
• 48:39
  you know, they had big blocks and, you know, six, 700 at the wheels.
• 48:43
  That 200 tread wear, it's okay.
• 48:45
  How well can you steer this car?
• 48:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 48:48
  We don't care how much, how big, how good your engine builder is or your
• 48:51
  gear ratios and all that good stuff.
• 48:53
  It's how well can you actually drive the car.
• 48:55
  So I think the 200 tread wear is a pretty good defining factor.
• 48:58
  And you missed one class.
• 49:00
  The what?
• 49:00
  The BRZ and the FRS class.
• 49:02
  They had that Snowflake S don't t. Yeah.
• 49:05
  Right.
• 49:05
  So that's another, that's almost a spec class I think, Tom.
• 49:08
  It is.
• 49:09
  There's a, uh, sort of package of mod you can do, and then you're
• 49:12
  out there, you know, it's, it's a mono, a mono if you will.
• 49:15
  It's driver on driver action.
• 49:17
  There's not really a whole lot of, uh, you know, I guess around
• 49:20
  a line few things, but it does limit the, the prep to a formula.
• 49:24
  Todd, I have to ask you a direct question.
• 49:26
  What are the width of your tires on your GTO?
• 49:29
  Well, well the, you know, and if the, the tire wars, it's either
• 49:33
  three 15 or 3 0 5, whoever has them.
• 49:35
  Oh.
• 49:35
  Oh, okay.
• 49:35
  So it's still slightly bigger than Toms Miata audience.
• 49:38
  You heard that right?
• 49:39
  Two 70 fives on a Miata.
• 49:41
  I believe they call those either square or box Miatas sometimes,
• 49:45
  because they are, they look like little roller skates with those lot of
• 49:48
  time, you know, 11 inch wheels on 'em.
• 49:50
  It's nuts.
• 49:50
  Yeah, it looks a little weird, but it sure does go around corners nicely.
• 49:54
  You know, and it's funny because you're in one of the most highly
• 49:56
  contested classes, I think in all of SECA and it's traditionally
• 49:59
  always been C Street prepared.
• 50:01
  And even my dad fought for years in C Street prepared with an original CRX si.
• 50:05
  And it was one of those deals where back then CCSP, the rules were so tight
• 50:10
  and so stringent and obviously they've allowed more things and it's mind boggling
• 50:14
  every time they make a change to CSP.
• 50:16
  'cause in the old days it was like you could run whatever, you know, with
• 50:19
  the wheel and tire so long as it fits.
• 50:22
  Within the fenders.
• 50:23
  And then there were these weird exceptions, like, well, if you had
• 50:25
  a mark one GTI and had the factory fender extensions that was legal, so
• 50:31
  you could get a bigger tire, and then you put like nine degrees of camra
• 50:34
  in there so it would fit inside the fender and you still have like a 2 55.
• 50:37
  It was, it was insane, you know.
• 50:39
  But now, I mean, I see these guys, you know, cutting the fenders of the
• 50:42
  Miatas, putting these big tires on there.
• 50:44
  And I'm just like, shouldn't you be prepared?
• 50:46
  Like I, I don't get it.
• 50:48
  And you can, you can cut the fenders, uh, in, in the plane
• 50:52
  of the wheel mounting surfing.
• 50:54
  You can cut a pretty good bit off the Miata fender.
• 50:57
  That's insane.
• 50:58
  And so you're running an NB Mazda speed, or was this a modified Miata?
• 51:02
  It's a Mazda speed, so it's in B Street prepared.
• 51:06
  So I got S two thousands.
• 51:07
  And the, the funny thing is they put the, uh, the new Miata
• 51:11
  in that class as well, so.
• 51:13
  They have a pretty good weight advantage.
• 51:14
  And the big kicker is they've got a gearing advantage.
• 51:17
  So my car, typically you're gonna see some third gear action
• 51:20
  'cause it's geared so low.
• 51:21
  If it's a course that doesn't require the, uh, newer Miata to go to third gear,
• 51:27
  then I'm in a pretty good disadvantage.
• 51:28
  If it's a course that requires them to go to third gear, then I, I've got
• 51:32
  a pretty good advantage 'cause I've got better acceleration in third gear
• 51:36
  so that, that's part of the game.
• 51:37
  You know, you build yourself a car, you know, and, and when you do a full build
• 51:41
  on a street prepared car, you know, it's, it's not a inexpensive kind of thing.
• 51:44
  And then they, you know, some class changes come along and it sort
• 51:47
  of, uh, may relegate your car to the, uh, the back marker place.
• 51:51
  So that's exactly what happened with my, uh, Corvette that I had.
• 51:55
  Todd, do you know the names?
• 51:57
  Uh, you know the Barry family?
• 51:58
  Yeah, the guy Ankeny.
• 52:00
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:01
  This, this black Corvette that I had was Tom Berry's car, been built by Guy Ankeny
• 52:05
  and it was National Champion back when the C four was a car to have in that class.
• 52:09
  And it was a, it was a barrel of monkeys to drive, but you know,
• 52:12
  it just was not gonna beat these newer, smaller, lighter cars.
• 52:16
  Not in that class.
• 52:17
  It won't, yeah.
• 52:18
  If you're limited, those c fours won't do it.
• 52:20
  But now some of the cam guys are building killer C fours.
• 52:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 52:23
  Right.
• 52:24
  But that's to open the rule book and you can see what happens.
• 52:26
  But again, you're just pouring in money.
• 52:28
  I wonder if those built c fours are gonna be able to hang with a built
• 52:32
  even C five with a transactional in the back, those sorts of things.
• 52:36
  I hated to see that car go 'cause it was so much fun to drive.
• 52:39
  Guy Ankeny is a genius on the stuff that he does with regards to setup.
• 52:43
  When I was working on that car and, you know, maintaining it, I would
• 52:46
  come across these little touches and I was like, man, that's clever and I
• 52:50
  won't reveal into the secrets here.
• 52:52
  It was a well set up car.
• 52:53
  It was fun to drive.
• 52:55
  I hate to see it go.
• 52:56
  So do you guys feel like CROs sometimes is a little bit of keeping up with the
• 52:59
  Joneses, or is it more trying to find new ways to work within the boundaries
• 53:05
  and the parameters that we've been given?
• 53:07
  It's Todd's point.
• 53:08
  We're mediocre enough that we wait for everybody else to leave
• 53:11
  and then the class works for us.
• 53:13
  'cause we're the only ones left.
• 53:14
  Let me, let me cut in before Tom starts talking.
• 53:17
  So he, he has a different class, different car, different idea.
• 53:22
  Right.
• 53:22
  When I got into, I had that TransAm, I bought a GTO and I built it because the
• 53:26
  TransAm was failing a California smog.
• 53:29
  So I just built this car for myself.
• 53:31
  I was gonna drive it to work, drive it to the racetrack, drive it wherever,
• 53:35
  air conditioning, cruise control, you know, automatic headlights, track
• 53:38
  control, A, b, s, all that stuff.
• 53:40
  And I wanted, just wanted to.
• 53:41
  To drive it and then, hey, cam class started.
• 53:44
  So I mean, I didn't necessarily build the car for the class.
• 53:48
  I built the car for me, then Cam happened.
• 53:51
  If I was gonna try to win cam, I would take a C five, you know,
• 53:55
  zero six, cut the top of it off.
• 53:57
  Put a Mustang on top of it or something and you know, or a tube frame chassis,
• 54:02
  a Mustang and come in at 3001 pounds.
• 54:05
  And if you're building a cam car to win, you got a load of money.
• 54:10
  And a lot of dumb, because I got a load of money in it and a lot of
• 54:14
  dumb, and it's not, you know, and it's not really built for the class, you
• 54:17
  know, it was just something I built.
• 54:18
  So, yeah, and, and I think that's the other impasse that you hit, which
• 54:21
  is you can only go so far in a class till you realize you have to switch
• 54:25
  cars if you wanna be nationally ranked or a champion or, or whatever.
• 54:29
  So I've seen that a lot where people are like, wait, when did you get this car?
• 54:32
  Well, I wanted to be competitive in this new class.
• 54:34
  That's the hot thing to be in.
• 54:36
  Yeah.
• 54:36
  Whereas, you know, whereas Tom's class, any class basically that has
• 54:39
  a Miata in it, follow the flow chart.
• 54:42
  Miata is the answer.
• 54:43
  Right.
• 54:44
  So.
• 54:45
  So you build it to that class spec.
• 54:47
  It used to be CRX, but you know, Miata has taken over.
• 54:50
  Yeah.
• 54:50
  At least for Otter Cross.
• 54:51
  At least for DER Cross.
• 54:52
  Oh yeah.
• 54:52
  And I did own a Miata, so I mean, I still have one in the trunk of the GTO.
• 54:56
  I use it as ballast when I have to put a little extra weight on.
• 54:59
  But I, I mean, it's not a built Miata.
• 55:01
  So the Miata situation is nice 'cause there's a lot of traffic in, uh, used
• 55:06
  parts and that sort of stuff as well.
• 55:08
  That's kind of a nice thing.
• 55:09
  I like my Miata.
• 55:10
  I've had a couple of Miatas, I think they're cool cars.
• 55:12
  I have a sun in Alpine too, so I'm, I appreciate the little British car.
• 55:16
  And to me the, especially the first gen mi was like all the
• 55:19
  good stuff from the British cars.
• 55:21
  All the good stuff from the Italian sports cars mixed in with
• 55:25
  that was a short list, wasn't it?
• 55:28
  Yeah.
• 55:29
  I dunno.
• 55:29
  It had a funny name.
• 55:30
  Yeah.
• 55:30
  Had 16 valve twin cam, high rev engines and the, you know, and the Italian mix,
• 55:35
  of course, they broke every 10 minutes.
• 55:37
  Most of the British cars were sort of hip on their styling, but.
• 55:40
  You know, they had voters out of tractors, that kind of thing.
• 55:43
  None of 'em were reliable.
• 55:44
  So, you know, you mix all that together with some good Japanese reliability
• 55:47
  and that's what all the, the, all those sports cars wanted to be back in the day.
• 55:51
  So I, I've enjoyed my Miata.
• 55:52
  I like the Corvette.
• 55:53
  Like I said, everybody that does this, in my mind is part of the family.
• 55:57
  I love 'em all, appreciate their cars.
• 55:59
  I just want everybody to come and have fun and enjoy their cars.
• 56:02
  I appreciate pretty much all makes and manufacturing.
• 56:04
  So knowing what you know now, because you're on the subject matter
• 56:07
  expert end of the pendulum for the folks that are starting out, right?
• 56:11
  This is kind of a double-edged question.
• 56:13
  If you had to start all over again with the cars that are available
• 56:17
  today, what would you buy?
• 56:19
  Which segues into what are some great starter autocross cars that's not your
• 56:24
  mom's caravan or the Hertz rental car like we were joking about at the beginning.
• 56:27
  I think we've established that Miata is typically the answer
• 56:30
  for most Motorsport questions.
• 56:32
  So that's an obvious choice.
• 56:34
  There's lots of 'em out there.
• 56:35
  Three series BMWs.
• 56:37
  Honda S two thousands, C five Corvettes, C six Corvettes.
• 56:41
  There's a lot of cars out there.
• 56:42
  It's just kind of depends on what you wanna do.
• 56:44
  I mean, there's literally, in my, in my mind, there's a car for almost
• 56:48
  every taste, if you will, that can be all across and do pretty well.
• 56:52
  No love for front wheel drive.
• 56:54
  That's what I heard out, right?
• 56:55
  Yeah, I was just gonna say all there, there's a common denominator
• 56:57
  there, which was river drive.
• 56:59
  Starting out though, and trying to buy a car that's gonna do well.
• 57:03
  I mean, you know, we got Mr. Purple Crack here and I'm 200 tread wear.
• 57:08
  Starting out, you have no idea if, do you want to have high horsepower
• 57:11
  or do you want to go with STS or whatever, you know, low horsepower.
• 57:15
  But man, they can turn to buy a car.
• 57:18
  Starting out.
• 57:18
  I would show up at, I had a Acura Vigor or whatever, whoever
• 57:23
  made vigor or vigor or whatever.
• 57:25
  I like to call it vigor king Vigo, or, you know, made it anyhow.
• 57:29
  Yeah, right.
• 57:29
  The Viagra car, you know that five cylinder?
• 57:31
  So you show up with some turd and you kind of go from there and you see, you
• 57:36
  know, maybe you like the looks of a car.
• 57:37
  I like the looks of a car and I build it.
• 57:39
  The Miatas are great fun.
• 57:40
  I mean, stock Miatas are fun to drive On the street, I don't
• 57:43
  really fit and I got into an accident once, so I don't want one.
• 57:46
  But to start out, yeah, I would take my mom's car, my dad's car,
• 57:51
  or any car, I'd get my rental car, you know, and go see what I like.
• 57:55
  Basically it just needs to be wider than it is tall Auto cross and like
• 58:01
  I mentioned, uh, a, a sturdy battery hold down and, and then do it to it.
• 58:05
  But I do want to go back, you know, on the front wheel drive thing, it's
• 58:08
  uh, we have a guy that runs with us.
• 58:11
  Who has a, uh, a neon and that's a, you know, that's an autocross car.
• 58:14
  They had a great contingency program back in the day.
• 58:17
  They were very popular.
• 58:19
  Well, the funny thing was, apparently the guy that was like the manager of the neon
• 58:23
  program for Chrysler was an autocrosser.
• 58:25
  Wally Swift.
• 58:26
  I knew him personally.
• 58:28
  Yes.
• 58:28
  So, you know, the car came with a little bit more suspension
• 58:31
  adjustment than you might have normally expected in a economy car.
• 58:35
  But it's a lot of fun because this guy's got a, a first gen neon, a CR.
• 58:39
  He bought it off the lot, didn't even know what it was.
• 58:41
  He was just looking for an economy car.
• 58:43
  But it's always fun when, uh, you know, new people are show
• 58:46
  up and they're like, well, yeah, can I get a ride with something?
• 58:48
  It's like, yeah, just go ride that guy with his neon.
• 58:50
  It's, it's just a neon.
• 58:51
  Then they come back with a bit of a terrified look on their face and
• 58:54
  say, I thought I was gonna die.
• 58:56
  Which is always a, a fun thing to do to people.
• 58:59
  Fun fact about Wally, he autocross forever, but he also was the owner of
• 59:04
  an alpine he auto to across a tiger.
• 59:06
  So, uh, there you have it.
• 59:07
  Oh yeah, I remember that.
• 59:09
  He, I think well didn't, yeah, he took that tiger quite a
• 59:12
  ways, as I recall, didn't he?
• 59:14
  Yep.
• 59:14
  I mean, obviously he was in Detroit for a long time, but he resided in the BMV after
• 59:18
  he got out of all that, but awesome guy.
• 59:20
  Uh, unfortunately he passed away many, many years ago, but many of us here in
• 59:24
  our area knew Wally very, very well.
• 59:26
  So, yeah.
• 59:26
  That's, that's funny how small the Otter Cross world can be, even though
• 59:29
  it's a nationally recognized program.
• 59:32
  I was enjoying your story about the neons.
• 59:34
  I almost bought one.
• 59:35
  I'm sorry.
• 59:37
  Well, this guy's running an FSP.
• 59:40
  We're trying to get him to sort of take it to the next level.
• 59:42
  He is running the white tires and all that sort of stuff, but there
• 59:44
  are other things that he could do to, uh, kick it up a notch.
• 59:47
  So this actually brings up a really good point about car prep.
• 59:50
  You can take this two ways.
• 59:52
  One, I've heard it said many times, autocross make terrible
• 59:55
  track drivers and track cars make terrible autocross cars, right?
• 59:59
  So you can go either way.
• 1:00:00
  It, it's vice versa.
• 1:00:02
  Track drivers going to autocross and, and, and, and so on and so forth.
• 1:00:05
  The disciplines are so different and the driving styles are technically
• 1:00:08
  so different, grounded in the same foundational properties that they cannot.
• 1:00:12
  Used in both realms.
• 1:00:14
  Right?
• 1:00:14
  It's like taking a bow and arrow to go shoot something
• 1:00:18
  you need a bazooka for, right?
• 1:00:19
  It just, it doesn't, it doesn't work.
• 1:00:21
  Do you guys think that that's true or is there a compromised car that could
• 1:00:24
  do both 66 GTOI I've ridden in your car?
• 1:00:30
  Yes, it does.
• 1:00:32
  It's, you know.
• 1:00:34
  So, uh, sorry Tom.
• 1:00:35
  Lemme cut.
• 1:00:35
  So again, I had, you know, one, a friend of a friend, it was like a Mr. Actual
• 1:00:40
  track training type, like professionally paid to do this stuff for racing teams.
• 1:00:46
  So he helped us out at some event and he is like, what are
• 1:00:48
  you guys doing with your cars?
• 1:00:50
  And he is just goes through this whole list of stuff that we should
• 1:00:52
  be checking on our autocross cars.
• 1:00:54
  We're at a race track, track event.
• 1:00:56
  He's like, you should be checking this, this, this, this.
• 1:00:58
  You know?
• 1:00:58
  And did you adjust this?
• 1:01:00
  Since the track and all these adjustments he would've made, he knows
• 1:01:03
  Autocross and he knows track cars.
• 1:01:04
  He is like, did you guys make any of those adjustments?
• 1:01:07
  And I'm like, I put gas in it.
• 1:01:09
  I think I'd say chiropractor, right?
• 1:01:12
  Yeah.
• 1:01:12
  You know, yeah.
• 1:01:13
  Check tire a couple pounds lower and we're good to go.
• 1:01:17
  I mean, as far as one that does it both.
• 1:01:19
  I mean, I don't change my stuff because it's kind of hard to change from
• 1:01:22
  autocross to a road race configuration.
• 1:01:25
  And then I just drive around it knowing that if generally if it starts sliding,
• 1:01:29
  I know what's gonna happen as opposed to trying to make it this track beast.
• 1:01:33
  Which, I mean, you could pick up a couple tents, but if road race and tracks were
• 1:01:38
  any easier way it would be drag racing.
• 1:01:40
  Oh man.
• 1:01:43
  Boom.
• 1:01:43
  My experience with the C four core events, the two of 'em that I had was.
• 1:01:48
  The big change that you needed to make was different tires, but I would, like I said,
• 1:01:51
  I typically would ruin a set of brakes.
• 1:01:54
  That was the other thing too.
• 1:01:55
  You didn't wanna run with your autocross bands on the track.
• 1:01:58
  Not for two hot laps in a row.
• 1:02:00
  You don't.
• 1:02:00
  Nope.
• 1:02:01
  But I, you know, I always, I, I enjoyed those.
• 1:02:03
  We have a. Motorcycle track, little Talladega.
• 1:02:06
  It's near the big Talladega, and that track was pretty cheap to rent.
• 1:02:09
  So I, I did a number of track days there.
• 1:02:12
  It was, uh, you know, a hundred to 53 times in about a
• 1:02:17
  minute and a half for the lap.
• 1:02:18
  So it was, it was pretty brutal on brakes.
• 1:02:21
  We talk about autocross and its complexity and this and that,
• 1:02:24
  but there's one piece I think.
• 1:02:25
  That we've forgotten to address, which is the penalty side of autocross.
• 1:02:28
  I mean, in the track world, the penalty is, eh, I scrubbed the lap.
• 1:02:32
  Or maybe you had the, uh, the unfortunate incident of mowing
• 1:02:36
  some grass or something like that.
• 1:02:38
  But at autocross, we have to remind people it's a competitive event.
• 1:02:41
  It always is.
• 1:02:42
  There's no like fun runs.
• 1:02:44
  It's not like a de or there are fun runs, but it's not like a de where
• 1:02:48
  you're out there learning and it's all about expanding your knowledge.
• 1:02:51
  You're competing against the clock, you're competing against
• 1:02:53
  other cars in your class.
• 1:02:54
  You're competing against everybody that's there.
• 1:02:57
  So what's penalty for screwing up?
• 1:02:59
  Well, if you hit a C, it's a, uh, time penalty.
• 1:03:03
  One second, I believe is what they're, uh, putting on there.
• 1:03:05
  Is it two, depends on where you're racing.
• 1:03:07
  Depends on where you race.
• 1:03:08
  So it depends thing.
• 1:03:09
  When we do two, I don't hit cones that much, but, uh, it says modestly.
• 1:03:13
  Well, actually it's a problem if you're not hitting cones, at least on
• 1:03:16
  occasion, you're not trying hard enough.
• 1:03:18
  Uh, yeah, two second penalty.
• 1:03:20
  I mean that, and in two seconds is like 10 years in autocross.
• 1:03:24
  If you hit a cone, unless everybody else hits a cone, you're
• 1:03:26
  probably done with that run.
• 1:03:28
  You're heading towards a gate or a feature and you don't go
• 1:03:31
  through that feature appropriately.
• 1:03:32
  You go around it or you miss it, which, uh, you know, if you're
• 1:03:35
  not looking ahead, that'll happen.
• 1:03:37
  Then it's a DNF, so you don't get a time at all.
• 1:03:39
  They'll, they'll typically post what your scratch time is, but that
• 1:03:42
  run does effectively doesn't count.
• 1:03:44
  Also known as off course.
• 1:03:46
  Right, right.
• 1:03:46
  Because you did not stay within the boundaries of the course.
• 1:03:49
  There's also another DNFI believe you can get, which is blowing through the stop
• 1:03:52
  garage when you run out of brake pads.
• 1:03:53
  Isn't that right, Todd?
• 1:03:54
  Yes, exactly.
• 1:03:57
  The other thing is, yeah, maybe you hit a cone.
• 1:03:59
  You know, a lot of people worry, oh well it's gonna mess
• 1:04:01
  up my car and this and that.
• 1:04:03
  Which kind of leads us into the question is autocross safe?
• 1:04:07
  Like I said, I've been doing this for a while.
• 1:04:09
  I have seen two cars essentially get towed, so it is not without risk,
• 1:04:14
  but I've also seen numerous cars.
• 1:04:15
  We just had one a couple weeks ago, you know, the car, uh, we had one
• 1:04:18
  go in the ditch, the guy got it out, took it to the car wash, washed
• 1:04:21
  mud off and ran in the afternoon.
• 1:04:23
  Uh, he had a couple little minor problems with the car or you know, cosmetic
• 1:04:27
  issues, but you know, he is probably gonna fix it for less than 200 bucks.
• 1:04:30
  So anytime you get out in the car and you fling it around, there
• 1:04:33
  is going to be a degree of risk.
• 1:04:35
  We endeavor and have safety rules, debates, and we'll change the
• 1:04:39
  course if we think it's dangerous.
• 1:04:41
  But you know, there's only so much protection from an individual that can be
• 1:04:45
  done if you do something colossally stupid or perhaps have an equipment failure.
• 1:04:48
  There is a risk of of hitting a solid object.
• 1:04:51
  Yeah.
• 1:04:51
  I've never seen anyone injured.
• 1:04:53
  I'll put it to you that way.
• 1:04:54
  We've had equipment failures that have had things, have a lot
• 1:04:57
  of people running off course.
• 1:04:58
  I do know one person that had a stuck throttle on a, some sort of a kick,
• 1:05:03
  you know, 700 horsepower in a 1500 pound car, and that car went straight.
• 1:05:09
  That was a mess.
• 1:05:09
  You know, that's, uh, some sort of a failure on a home-built car,
• 1:05:13
  which is different than your, you know, driving your mom's car.
• 1:05:15
  But, yeah, you know, I wasn't kidding.
• 1:05:17
  I do not on purpose, but I generally, if there's room, I'll do a donut
• 1:05:21
  instead of, you know, if I, if the backend starts to come around, you end
• 1:05:25
  up doing a donut or spinning out or, or running over a whole pile of cones.
• 1:05:29
  One time I was like, I was yelling at my wife.
• 1:05:31
  You just smashed into that cone.
• 1:05:32
  Well, I wanted to try going straight and see what happened.
• 1:05:35
  So you can do that, right?
• 1:05:36
  I mean, you can just go straight, hit a cone and say, oh, no big, you know, I
• 1:05:39
  gotta rub a little plastic off the paint.
• 1:05:41
  Generally speaking, you know, it's a smoke and go, or a, you hit a couple
• 1:05:46
  cones or you get a red flag and you gotta stop or something like that.
• 1:05:49
  But generally speaking, it's way safer than track.
• 1:05:52
  But we're not talking like good guys, autocross or Optima, ultimate streetcar,
• 1:05:56
  autocross, where they have concrete kras all the way around the autocross course.
• 1:06:01
  So, I mean, that's a different, some organizations wouldn't allow the concrete
• 1:06:05
  caveras around, you know, they say it's, you don't have enough safety barrier.
• 1:06:08
  The SCCA absolutely has a load of rules and they have a safety, uh,
• 1:06:13
  chief safety, you know, it's a steward.
• 1:06:15
  Yeah.
• 1:06:15
  Actual position steward.
• 1:06:16
  Yeah.
• 1:06:17
  So I mean, they're trying to make a safe course.
• 1:06:19
  If your top speed is.
• 1:06:20
  50, that if you have a, a reasonable driver, a reasonable idiot,
• 1:06:25
  that you're reasonably safe.
• 1:06:27
  And some of that also comes down to the construction of a lot harder and
• 1:06:30
  harder these days to find lots like there are in California or maybe
• 1:06:34
  abandoned airports or even down south where Tom is, where there's not a
• 1:06:38
  lot of islands and, and things in the middle of the lot for lighting.
• 1:06:41
  And you know, the days of, you know, running at certain stadiums is still sort
• 1:06:46
  of a deal, but not really anymore, right?
• 1:06:47
  'cause they've tightened down on what can be done and where auto
• 1:06:50
  crosses can be run and all that.
• 1:06:51
  So obviously you want a, a parking lot with the least amount of obstructions
• 1:06:55
  and those are the safest ones.
• 1:06:57
  But then you have to keep in mind, hey, if there is some sort of barrier in
• 1:07:00
  the center or whatever, where is that?
• 1:07:01
  You know, what's the transition like?
• 1:07:03
  Are they using that part?
• 1:07:04
  How close is it to a gate?
• 1:07:05
  So these are things you have to kind of use your better judgment on your own.
• 1:07:09
  Are you gonna go 11 tenths into that corner?
• 1:07:11
  Well, no.
• 1:07:12
  Maybe that's to the point.
• 1:07:13
  You guys were talking earlier.
• 1:07:14
  That's the throwaway corner.
• 1:07:15
  We're gonna take it easy 'cause we don't wanna do a donut six feet from a curb.
• 1:07:19
  Granted, they would probably never put the gate that close,
• 1:07:21
  but you never know, right?
• 1:07:22
  Physics will take us in interesting directions, but there's
• 1:07:25
  another side of this, right?
• 1:07:26
  We talk about all the time, and you guys mentioned it earlier,
• 1:07:29
  at least on the track side of the house, tech inspections, right?
• 1:07:32
  When you go to the track, because the car is under heavy duress, heavy
• 1:07:36
  stress, and lots of heat, things are prone to fail a lot more than, let's
• 1:07:40
  say, they would be in an autocross.
• 1:07:41
  So our tech inspections are very in depth, or we're checking all these things.
• 1:07:44
  It's like almost like a safety inspection for your state.
• 1:07:47
  What's a tech inspection like for autocross?
• 1:07:49
  What are you looking for?
• 1:07:50
  What are you checking?
• 1:07:51
  Do you do it beforehand?
• 1:07:52
  Do you do it on site?
• 1:07:53
  That's one of the things I do for, uh, our events is, uh, due to tech inspections,
• 1:07:58
  you know, we're checking to see that there's not any sort of bad leaks.
• 1:08:01
  I, I keep mentioning the battery.
• 1:08:03
  Hold down.
• 1:08:03
  That is the number one thing.
• 1:08:05
  It gets people in trouble in the tech inspection.
• 1:08:07
  You gotta have your battery batten down.
• 1:08:09
  Uh, I remember there was a guy there and a Lotus police, whatever.
• 1:08:13
  The battery's in the front, the previous owner had left one of the
• 1:08:17
  hard to get to, clamps off, pull down.
• 1:08:19
  Of course, it wasn't really evident in the tech inspection.
• 1:08:21
  Battery came loose at the autocross trundled around under the hood.
• 1:08:24
  There did like 12 grand worth of damage.
• 1:08:26
  He had to have it taken on a tow truck.
• 1:08:28
  So, like I say, battery hold down's, biggie.
• 1:08:30
  You wanna make sure that the steering wheel's not loose.
• 1:08:33
  We, we wiggle the tires to try to see if there's any loose lu nuts.
• 1:08:37
  You know, you're, you're basically just doing a good visual inspection
• 1:08:40
  looking for anything that could cause problems in an autocross situation.
• 1:08:43
  It's not terribly invasive, but you know, loose items outta the cockpit.
• 1:08:47
  Seat belt's in good shape, no big cracks that obscure the
• 1:08:50
  vision on the windshield battery.
• 1:08:51
  Hold down for the 11th time.
• 1:08:53
  You know, no missing lu nuts, things of that nature, but it's, it's as
• 1:08:56
  comprehensive as a, uh, five to seven minute inspection could be.
• 1:09:00
  Yeah.
• 1:09:00
  And that wheels shake is also for wheel bearings as well, to see if
• 1:09:03
  anything's clicking or clacking CV joints, stuff like that.
• 1:09:06
  It's a lot of suspension, heavy inspection.
• 1:09:08
  I just outta curiosity, you guys still did the hands off
• 1:09:11
  brake test like in the old days.
• 1:09:12
  Uh, no.
• 1:09:13
  So for those that don't know what that is, I used to love that at the end of
• 1:09:16
  the tech inspection they would have you take off and then take your hands off
• 1:09:20
  the wheel and then slam on the brakes.
• 1:09:22
  And the idea was to see whether the car would track true, would track straight
• 1:09:26
  if there was an issue with the alignment.
• 1:09:28
  So wasn't sure if that had totally gone away.
• 1:09:31
  I always thought that was kind of fun and kind of just silly.
• 1:09:33
  'cause you could drive with your knees if you were smart,
• 1:09:35
  but hey, you know, whatever.
• 1:09:37
  We do a walk around tech inspection, so we just, you know, stroll around a lot.
• 1:09:41
  And, uh, check cars out.
• 1:09:43
  I also do tech inspection and yes, it's always the battery hold down that you're,
• 1:09:47
  you know, sending people away class and numbers sometimes sends people away.
• 1:09:51
  The other thing is the lug nuts.
• 1:09:52
  You know, we had in California, one guy showed up and he is,
• 1:09:56
  and he was missing a lug nut.
• 1:09:57
  And the tech inspector, you know, he is like, come on man, I, you
• 1:09:59
  know, I'm just missing one lug nut.
• 1:10:01
  And the guy's like, okay, well, you know, go replace that lug nut
• 1:10:04
  and I'll, you know, I'll let it go.
• 1:10:06
  So he checked the two wheels on the other side, were missing two lug nuts as well.
• 1:10:09
  Sometimes people are just asking, you know, it's like, you know,
• 1:10:12
  that kind of person where you don't inspect your car at all and autocross
• 1:10:16
  a track day, any of these things, this is not an arrive and drive.
• 1:10:19
  This is not come and show up and drive our supercars, drive our go-karts drive.
• 1:10:23
  This is your car.
• 1:10:24
  You are responsible, right?
• 1:10:26
  So I mean, if your state has an inspection, basically it's a
• 1:10:28
  state inspection would be good enough to, to do autocross.
• 1:10:31
  The other thing that is, uh.
• 1:10:32
  Become problematic as of late.
• 1:10:34
  We run sound at our events because that seems to be the number one
• 1:10:38
  complaints, and it's such an inexact science, but we do have to run sound.
• 1:10:42
  We, we we're in a high school, uh, football stadium parking lot that's
• 1:10:45
  right next to a big bunch of apartments.
• 1:10:48
  That's one of the things that as of late, it's been problematic.
• 1:10:51
  It's your guys' sound limit, the same as the track guys.
• 1:10:53
  Is it 103 decibels?
• 1:10:55
  No, it's like, I think it's 90 at something.
• 1:10:58
  Our, you had so many feet or something.
• 1:10:59
  98 at 50 feet or something?
• 1:11:01
  Yeah, it's like 97 or 98 that runs DNF.
• 1:11:03
  You get some warnings and stuff like that.
• 1:11:05
  Lower levels.
• 1:11:06
  Depending on the humidity and working with some of our guys.
• 1:11:08
  'cause you know, huntsville's just chalk a block with engineers.
• 1:11:11
  I'm thinking there's gotta be a way to calibrate things.
• 1:11:15
  Maybe you use one of those boat horns or something.
• 1:11:17
  It's all about how it sounds to the people in the apartment.
• 1:11:20
  So maybe you go stand over near their place and blow the horn at the.
• 1:11:22
  Sound meter and ensure that it's about the same every time.
• 1:11:24
  I dunno, it sound sounds to me like super traps need to come back in style.
• 1:11:28
  You guys remember those?
• 1:11:29
  Or you put the plates on the back to quiet the car down and whatnot?
• 1:11:32
  I, I have one in my tool toolbox.
• 1:11:33
  Those, yeah.
• 1:11:34
  Yeah.
• 1:11:34
  I was just gonna say that, that's a standard, uh, autocross item.
• 1:11:37
  It's a plug in, you know, super trap type deal.
• 1:11:40
  I don't know if yours, Tom, if yours is actually a super trap, but he has a turbo.
• 1:11:44
  That's like a muffler.
• 1:11:45
  Anyway, so, you know, I was concerned about it being too loud,
• 1:11:48
  so I got thing that would fit over the, uh, exhaust, the tit.
• 1:11:52
  I loaned it to a guy one time at a, an event when he was
• 1:11:54
  blowing sound in his, uh, s 2000.
• 1:11:57
  It turned out to be so restrictive that his car wouldn't even go into Vita.
• 1:12:00
  Wow.
• 1:12:01
  It's like that scene from Beverly Hills Cop where he shoves a
• 1:12:03
  potato, a banana tailpipe, right?
• 1:12:05
  Oh, yeah.
• 1:12:06
  Uh, I mean on the sound thing.
• 1:12:07
  I, I get ya.
• 1:12:08
  There was, I was there with a guy some.
• 1:12:10
  Porsche, uh, at a track day event, and we were parked right next to each other.
• 1:12:15
  And I start my car and it's pretty noisy, and he starts his car and
• 1:12:18
  we're kind of screwing with each other before the event started.
• 1:12:21
  You know, I revved it up a little bit and he revved it up and people
• 1:12:23
  were like, man, that GTO is loud.
• 1:12:24
  I'm like, okay.
• 1:12:25
  He ends up getting thrown off the track for sound violation, and I didn't.
• 1:12:29
  It's because my exhaust was pointed away from the sound meter or something.
• 1:12:33
  And, and to Tom's point, you know, we're not trying to get kicked off
• 1:12:36
  of these courses, these pads, right?
• 1:12:39
  So I have, uh, you know, cutouts, I can close my cutouts if, if we're in
• 1:12:42
  a, you know, some sort of a place where you wanna be a little bit, uh, less
• 1:12:45
  noisy, but you know, it's really about what you hear, the DB where the meter.
• 1:12:50
  Is sitting is not necessarily what the person in the apartment
• 1:12:54
  complex is hearing, you know?
• 1:12:55
  So I mean, as far as trying to keep your place happy, just going by sound
• 1:13:00
  meter alone might not necessarily do it.
• 1:13:03
  One of the places we used to race, they would say, Hey, if you guys got
• 1:13:06
  cutouts or if you got super trap, put your Laguna Seka exhaust on
• 1:13:10
  because we're trying to keep this lot.
• 1:13:12
  It just sort of depends, and that's also really important too, I guess, dovetails
• 1:13:15
  back into that safety conversation as well, is also to remember that
• 1:13:20
  you are a steward of the discipline.
• 1:13:22
  So what you do coming and going from the lot.
• 1:13:25
  It's representative of everybody that's there.
• 1:13:27
  So, you know, kind of like the cars and coffee thing, if you screw around
• 1:13:29
  leaving, that has ramifications or repercussions for the people.
• 1:13:34
  And sometimes it has caused folks to, or organizations to lose lots.
• 1:13:39
  So, something else to keep in mind.
• 1:13:40
  It's not just about what's going on when you're there, it's
• 1:13:43
  also in that surrounding area.
• 1:13:44
  And don't be fooled if you don't think the cops are hanging out either.
• 1:13:46
  Right.
• 1:13:46
  Waiting for everybody to tear out of there.
• 1:13:48
  It's funny because almost without fail, we will have somebody drive by our
• 1:13:53
  event, not affiliated with the event.
• 1:13:55
  They see a bunch of guys and guys out there driving around in their cars and
• 1:13:58
  they're gonna have to do a, you know, top speed run as they go past the site.
• 1:14:03
  Yep.
• 1:14:03
  Um, we've actually done some, uh, emergency service challenge races where
• 1:14:08
  we'll have the cops and the ambulance drivers and such come and, and run.
• 1:14:12
  We do what we can to, uh, maintain good relationships with those people.
• 1:14:15
  Uh, we're, we're sort of using this site at the pleasure
• 1:14:18
  of our local school system.
• 1:14:20
  So we do, um, the street survival schools, uh, that SECA puts on.
• 1:14:25
  And those are excellent.
• 1:14:26
  And the other thing that's kind of cool in hunt school, they're
• 1:14:28
  doing this green power racing.
• 1:14:30
  I don't know if you guys have ever heard of it.
• 1:14:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:14:32
  It started in the uk it's about electric cars.
• 1:14:35
  They got a class that, uh, they have elementary school, middle
• 1:14:38
  school, and high school kids.
• 1:14:40
  They have these kick cars.
• 1:14:41
  Basically they take 'em apart and put 'em back together as part of
• 1:14:43
  the class, learn about electricity, and they get out and race 'em.
• 1:14:46
  Uh, and it's like an endurance race.
• 1:14:47
  And the club does timing and, uh, race control, support for the
• 1:14:51
  schools along those lines as well.
• 1:14:53
  So we do what we can to make sure we're giving back and being a
• 1:14:56
  valuable part of the equation here.
• 1:14:57
  We've talked a lot about TER Cross, but there's.
• 1:15:01
  Other sort of sub variance of CROs.
• 1:15:05
  I know of two others, pro solo, which we've mentioned, and then there's
• 1:15:08
  Track Cross, which I know Todd does.
• 1:15:11
  Are there any others, and let's expand upon the differences a little bit.
• 1:15:14
  Obviously we defined CROs, but what about the other two?
• 1:15:17
  Track Cross is generally, and it depends on the the event, but generally
• 1:15:22
  it's just a section of track that, you know, they're timing it like
• 1:15:26
  autocross, so it's one car at a time.
• 1:15:28
  Same basic idea as autocross, but it's on track.
• 1:15:32
  Occasionally they'll throw out a cone or two to maybe slow down a
• 1:15:35
  corner, kind of change the speed.
• 1:15:37
  So, you know, like we were talking about Shenandoah, they use, you know,
• 1:15:41
  a section of the course that doesn't have the straight, because they're
• 1:15:43
  trying to keep, you know, the speeds in the seventies, you don't, not into the
• 1:15:47
  hundreds depending on your car, of course.
• 1:15:49
  Right.
• 1:15:49
  So that's track cross where it's, it's actually on a road course track.
• 1:15:52
  So, you know, the cool thing is you can go learn the track and then go to this
• 1:15:57
  track cross, and then if they're going the same direction using the same sets
• 1:16:01
  of corners, you know, maybe they'll use the emergency turnout or they'll,
• 1:16:04
  you know, use some sort of a bypass or the infield or something like that.
• 1:16:07
  That's a little bit different.
• 1:16:08
  But you know, if you went back to 10 events, you would see the same
• 1:16:11
  course a couple of times and you'd have a chance to say, oh, I know
• 1:16:14
  these three or four corners, and you could throw something together.
• 1:16:17
  And they're still using cones to change the configuration of the
• 1:16:20
  track, even though the track is.
• 1:16:22
  Static.
• 1:16:22
  Some do like Shenandoah, not much of a need for additional cones.
• 1:16:27
  I, I did one in, uh, Las Vegas and they put, uh, those 55 gallon, you
• 1:16:32
  know, barriers in there that would mess up, you know, it was a, it was
• 1:16:35
  on purpose, you know, they're like, if you hit that, you're gonna destroy
• 1:16:38
  your car, so don't drive through there.
• 1:16:40
  So, I mean, it just depends on the event and who's running it.
• 1:16:43
  There was one at Thunder Hill where they put, you know, a Chicago box
• 1:16:46
  in the, you know, in one of the straightaways, which wasn't so
• 1:16:49
  good because there's a wall there.
• 1:16:50
  And, you know, some people aren't thinking about that.
• 1:16:52
  So that's, you know, that's another, you're talking about where's your
• 1:16:55
  throwaway corner, where are you gonna give it, you know, full go.
• 1:16:58
  I think about if I lose control of this car, where am I going?
• 1:17:01
  So in that straightaway, and then a Chicago box, maybe you want to take
• 1:17:05
  it easy on doing that lane change.
• 1:17:07
  A Chicago box is like avoiding a car in the middle of the road.
• 1:17:10
  You know, maybe you're gonna take it easy on that.
• 1:17:12
  So it just sort of depends on the club.
• 1:17:14
  So pro solo.
• 1:17:15
  That's all Tom.
• 1:17:17
  You know, I got the GTO and everybody's like, oh man, wow, that's so cool.
• 1:17:21
  The car's so fast.
• 1:17:22
  What kind of times do you run?
• 1:17:23
  And I'm like, oh, you know, like 53, 54 seconds.
• 1:17:26
  It depends on the auto.
• 1:17:27
  They're like, no, no drag race.
• 1:17:29
  I've never drag raced it.
• 1:17:30
  I've drag raced a motorcycle for fun, like at a track once.
• 1:17:34
  But other than that, no drag racing terrible at the lights.
• 1:17:37
  Tom go.
• 1:17:38
  So pro solo is uh, kind of a blending, uh, somewhat of drag racing and autocross.
• 1:17:43
  There will be two courses.
• 1:17:45
  They endeavor to make them as equivalent and similar as possible.
• 1:17:49
  Mirror image, usually right, right.
• 1:17:51
  Mirror image, they try, depends on the site.
• 1:17:54
  Regular autocross, when you come up to the start line, you get set and then
• 1:17:58
  they'll tell you, okay, you can go.
• 1:17:59
  And then the timing doesn't start until you take off and break the beam.
• 1:18:03
  So you can sit there and, you know, scratch your head for a minute.
• 1:18:06
  With pro solo, it actually has a Christmas tree start, so that's
• 1:18:09
  the sort of drag race angle.
• 1:18:10
  The scoring on it gets kind of complicated.
• 1:18:13
  Normally the way it'll work is you'll have a day long session where
• 1:18:16
  you'll do kind of standard dish kind of autocross thing, where you'll
• 1:18:19
  come and get probably three runs.
• 1:18:21
  And that will be three runs on each side of the course and you
• 1:18:24
  do 'em kind of back to back.
• 1:18:25
  So that's kind of fun.
• 1:18:26
  And then you'll come back and do an afternoon run and then the
• 1:18:29
  class winners and such will be selected then at that point to go
• 1:18:34
  into the tournament the next day.
• 1:18:36
  Normally they'll have a last chance where you'll come in and get two more
• 1:18:39
  runs of the course in the morning if you're not already a class winner
• 1:18:43
  to kind of get in, you know, on that second chance sort of scenario.
• 1:18:46
  But then you've got an index time that you ran the previous day, which
• 1:18:50
  is basically your fastest time.
• 1:18:52
  The objective is essentially to run as close to that time as as you
• 1:18:56
  can, and if you don't, it does just reestablish your index if you run faster.
• 1:19:01
  And then in that part of the show, the light timing is different.
• 1:19:04
  So the what they want to do, they're trying to make it so that both
• 1:19:07
  cars will finish at the same time.
• 1:19:09
  So if you're in the 400 horsepower SSM and you got somebody that's in
• 1:19:14
  the H Street Cobalt or whatever.
• 1:19:17
  You're gonna have to sit there after they take off, which could be a
• 1:19:20
  little bit of a discipline problem.
• 1:19:21
  So I've run pro solos.
• 1:19:23
  I think they're fun.
• 1:19:24
  I've never really done very well at them.
• 1:19:26
  The, uh, other thing we haven't talked about, the handicapping system
• 1:19:29
  called Pax comes into play and that's a whole nother, uh, kettle of fish.
• 1:19:33
  So I think they're fun, but I've never really had much success at.
• 1:19:37
  So do we wanna talk about Pax?
• 1:19:38
  'cause every time it comes up there's just this giant groan from everybody
• 1:19:42
  that knows what we're talking about.
• 1:19:43
  I, Hey, hey you.
• 1:19:44
  You know what, Tom?
• 1:19:45
  Sorry to cut in, but I, I can level this down.
• 1:19:48
  So I'm sitting at the stoplight, right?
• 1:19:50
  And there's one of those sweet all-wheel drive Porsche, the brand
• 1:19:54
  new Corvette and me and my GTO, right?
• 1:19:57
  And we see it's on, okay.
• 1:19:58
  You know, engines are revving a little bit.
• 1:19:59
  Light turns green.
• 1:20:00
  We take off tire smoke flying, just hauling ass to the next light.
• 1:20:05
  You know, we get to the next light.
• 1:20:06
  Porsche is first, Corvette second, and I come in last in between 'em, I rule
• 1:20:11
  down my windows and I yell pacs, I won.
• 1:20:14
  Nobody cares about pacs.
• 1:20:16
  It's not real.
• 1:20:17
  Okay?
• 1:20:17
  It's like the race is the race.
• 1:20:20
  You gotta pax up kid.
• 1:20:21
  It's like the drag racer say it's gonna give you 15 in the kick, right?
• 1:20:25
  And it's like, seriously?
• 1:20:27
  Yeah, something.
• 1:20:28
  It's sort of funny 'cause there's one dude that comes up with these PACS
• 1:20:31
  factors and the whole objective is.
• 1:20:34
  Take the car outta the equation.
• 1:20:35
  Again, if you're running hot Rod a GTO and I'm running into Volkswagen Golf,
• 1:20:40
  then what they wanna be able to do is multiply our times by a factor so that
• 1:20:45
  we could sort of run head to head.
• 1:20:46
  I'm, I'm with you.
• 1:20:47
  There's nobody really likes pax.
• 1:20:49
  Yeah, so PAX is based off of a national driver in a national car
• 1:20:55
  that's optimally set up for the class.
• 1:20:58
  Right.
• 1:20:58
  So that's where these PACS numbers come from.
• 1:21:01
  So if your car is not necessarily optimally set up in your class, then
• 1:21:05
  the PACS might not, you know, because you put in a different seat in your car
• 1:21:09
  and now you're in a some weird class.
• 1:21:11
  Well, that PACS isn't really Yeah.
• 1:21:13
  Any good for you.
• 1:21:14
  But, but it is good.
• 1:21:15
  So that way, you know, like maybe Tom and I are running at, AT events.
• 1:21:18
  He's a better driver than me.
• 1:21:20
  I can see where my packs, if it's getting closer to his packs or not, to determine
• 1:21:26
  if I'm getting better at driving, because we know Tom's not getting any better.
• 1:21:30
  Right.
• 1:21:30
  You know, or you know, so, so you can at least see, you know, when you're starting
• 1:21:34
  out, you'll have changing seconds, you know, in your time, not tens or thousands.
• 1:21:38
  Right.
• 1:21:38
  So you can see your improvement compared to maybe one of your friends that's
• 1:21:42
  been doing it for a while that's in a different class or something.
• 1:21:45
  That's where I think it comes in handy.
• 1:21:47
  So you can take that guy that never changes, that's always, you know,
• 1:21:51
  up there at the top of the heap and see how, how you're comparing to
• 1:21:54
  him across these courses that it's a different course every single time.
• 1:21:59
  So, I mean, that's where I use pax.
• 1:22:01
  I mean, it's a thing, the SECA uses it, it's frustrating.
• 1:22:05
  I don't, I mean, I'm, I, you know, like I said, one guy's doing it, it's not even a
• 1:22:08
  committee, so it's imperfect to be sure, but I'm not sure it could be perfect.
• 1:22:12
  I, I really think that it's not horrible, but I, I haven't had much luck with pacs.
• 1:22:17
  I'm with you.
• 1:22:18
  The time should be the time, and the reason I say that is I got burned by
• 1:22:21
  the packs, not necessarily in autocross, but in time trials because SCCA decided,
• 1:22:28
  oh, we're gonna carry the packs over to time trials, which makes no sense to me.
• 1:22:32
  And so a second place overall for the day, put me in eighth place by the
• 1:22:35
  end of the weekend because the pacs, and I'm like, my time is my time.
• 1:22:39
  I should not get beat by a Miata with half my horsepower because
• 1:22:42
  the PACS said so it doesn't work.
• 1:22:44
  You know what I mean?
• 1:22:45
  Yeah.
• 1:22:45
  It's kind of, to me it's like, well, if you're gonna have a ton of classes
• 1:22:49
  and you're gonna have one or two people in classes, then you probably need
• 1:22:52
  something to try to be able to compare.
• 1:22:55
  People outside their class.
• 1:22:57
  I would not wanna be the guy doing it.
• 1:22:58
  I don't disagree.
• 1:22:59
  And the second worst job there is the guy that's gotta come
• 1:23:01
  up with all the classing rules.
• 1:23:03
  'cause that's even worse than the pacs.
• 1:23:05
  Yeah.
• 1:23:05
  So so's they, they, they do have the what, the X class, which
• 1:23:09
  is a PACS based class, right?
• 1:23:12
  So there's a whole group of guys running on the PS class.
• 1:23:15
  I mean, those dudes are normally at the, their car is at the top of the prep.
• 1:23:19
  You know, their, their car is set up and ready to go and
• 1:23:22
  they're the better drivers.
• 1:23:23
  So, I mean, they're having fun in ps, you know, using it to their advantage.
• 1:23:27
  We run a, uh, pro class, which is, you know, whatever C you can
• 1:23:31
  run and they just use your PS again, it, it is funny to watch.
• 1:23:34
  'cause if it rains at a certain time, you know, there's so many
• 1:23:38
  things that can sort of derail it.
• 1:23:40
  Like I said, it's, it's an imperfect system, but it is a thing makes it
• 1:23:43
  more interesting and it gives people a reason to come back and try again.
• 1:23:46
  Right.
• 1:23:47
  Like, or like we talked about at the beginning.
• 1:23:48
  So what comes next?
• 1:23:50
  You graduate from CROs.
• 1:23:51
  Some people go to the track, some people go club racing, some people
• 1:23:54
  go Spec Miata, you know, spec E three six, things like that.
• 1:23:56
  But I think there's a stop gap for those that aren't a hundred
• 1:23:59
  percent sure they wanna go to the track, but they don't wanna leave.
• 1:24:04
  Autocross and I brought it up several times, and that's time trials.
• 1:24:07
  That's where I found myself and join, because I'm still competing against
• 1:24:10
  cars in my class against the clock, but I'm doing it on the racetrack.
• 1:24:14
  So oftentimes, you know, people are like, ah, time trials.
• 1:24:16
  It's just qualifying.
• 1:24:17
  But qualifying is what sets you up for the race, right?
• 1:24:21
  And so I think it's a great blend between going to the track and just
• 1:24:24
  doing track stuff and going to autocross because you're still competing.
• 1:24:27
  You're still trying to squeeze every little second out of the car, every
• 1:24:31
  little adjustment to gain back as much time as you can on that lap.
• 1:24:34
  And then to our point that we were just talking about, scoring
• 1:24:37
  is incredibly complicated.
• 1:24:38
  So is the class saying, but that's what makes it fun and a reason to come back.
• 1:24:42
  So something else to explore for the autocrossers that are
• 1:24:45
  listening to this, you know?
• 1:24:46
  Try time trials.
• 1:24:47
  It's a fully sanctioned program with an SECA as well, and it's an easy
• 1:24:51
  transition if you're looking for something new and exciting that doesn't
• 1:24:54
  have the same, let's say, payload.
• 1:24:56
  As you know, club racing would have, you know, the fastest lap time
• 1:25:00
  is absolutely not the way you're gonna be racing wheel to wheel.
• 1:25:04
  I mean, unless you're out in the front of the pack or by yourself or something.
• 1:25:08
  And even then fastest lap time, you're, you're leaving that door wide
• 1:25:11
  open for somebody to shove it in, into a corner, stuff it in there,
• 1:25:15
  and then that messes up your lap.
• 1:25:16
  Then you end up going off courses with what I did at Lemons once.
• 1:25:19
  So I That's very true.
• 1:25:20
  And the other thing with time trials is, is you're building your consistency.
• 1:25:24
  You want those laps to be within fractions of a second of each
• 1:25:27
  other lap after lap after lap.
• 1:25:29
  When you're club racing, it's all, well, I got stuck in this pack and now
• 1:25:31
  I had to make the pass and I'm holding 'em in a defending, so your lap time.
• 1:25:35
  Pretty much goes completely out the window.
• 1:25:37
  But if you're looking for precise track, driving time trials
• 1:25:40
  is definitely where it is.
• 1:25:41
  If you're not doing track cross like you're doing, which is also a
• 1:25:43
  nice little blend or hybrid there.
• 1:25:46
  Continuing that conversation of what other variants of autocross is there,
• 1:25:49
  obviously time trials being that ultimate blend of all those together.
• 1:25:53
  There are passing rules in time trials.
• 1:25:55
  'cause you're out there with other cars, you can be out there with
• 1:25:57
  slower cars and don't you have to get a point by or or at least it?
• 1:26:01
  It depends on the, it depends on the organization.
• 1:26:04
  They all run them differently.
• 1:26:05
  So some are completely open passing and you just leave space and the guy goes by.
• 1:26:09
  Sometimes you run door to door, other times it's a staggered rally start.
• 1:26:13
  So they don't want the cars on top of each other.
• 1:26:15
  They give everybody a certain amount of distance and then if you do
• 1:26:18
  end up catching, the other thing is they will stagger us by class.
• 1:26:22
  So you only qualify, let's say all the BSP cars go out together and they
• 1:26:27
  should be running similar laptops.
• 1:26:28
  So you, you all just eventually just spread out or give each other room.
• 1:26:32
  So there's different strategies depending on what you're doing.
• 1:26:35
  I happen to run, and it depends on the group.
• 1:26:37
  I would be an STU and SCCA.
• 1:26:39
  Ambrose's got different rules than SCCA and BMW's got theirs.
• 1:26:43
  They vary wildly other than the guiding principle that the fastest
• 1:26:47
  lap is what you're scored on.
• 1:26:48
  However you achieve that is, is kind of up to you.
• 1:26:52
  I've also been told, and I followed this rule religiously, if I can't get it done
• 1:26:56
  in nine laps, I'm off the track, three warm, three hot, three cold, and I'm gone.
• 1:27:00
  Because if you're spending more time than that, you're just destroying consumables.
• 1:27:03
  But we, that's, that's a conversation for another day.
• 1:27:06
  So just like in circuit racing, we have our favorite and
• 1:27:09
  least favorite tracks, right?
• 1:27:10
  Some we go to because.
• 1:27:12
  We absolutely love them and others well, whatever, we'll
• 1:27:14
  just kind of skip over 'em.
• 1:27:16
  But can the same be set of autocross?
• 1:27:18
  Is that true?
• 1:27:19
  Are there some that are great and some that are different?
• 1:27:21
  What makes a lot better than another one?
• 1:27:24
  The surface is the biggie.
• 1:27:25
  So, uh, concrete is king.
• 1:27:27
  There's much more grip available on the concrete.
• 1:27:29
  I find, you know, I run on an asphalt course, uh, here locally, so when I
• 1:27:33
  go somewhere else that has concrete, there's always a bit of an adjustment
• 1:27:38
  that has to take place, you know, take advantage of the additional grip.
• 1:27:41
  Places like Bristol, the parking lot's got a lot of bumps and elevation changes.
• 1:27:46
  There's almost always a few cars that break some suspension
• 1:27:49
  parts on those, uh, at that lot.
• 1:27:51
  But it's interesting because, you know, it's, it's a little
• 1:27:53
  different than a flat lot.
• 1:27:55
  So yeah, I definitely think there are different venues.
• 1:27:57
  That have different characteristics that make them more or less desirable.
• 1:28:01
  The, like I said, the, that one airport that we run at at Crows
• 1:28:04
  Landing, the, you know, the backup runway for the shuttle, that's a
• 1:28:08
  concrete, you know, striped concrete.
• 1:28:10
  So it's like infinite traction.
• 1:28:12
  You're setting your suspension as stiff as you can get it.
• 1:28:14
  Picking up wheel.
• 1:28:15
  I was picking up wheels, you know, on the GTO.
• 1:28:18
  And so, you know, you have loads of traction, lots of runoff.
• 1:28:22
  If you run off the track, you're running over weeds.
• 1:28:24
  And you're talking about the asphalt course.
• 1:28:26
  Good guys, notorious, you know, they have that super smooth black asphalt that's
• 1:28:31
  never used, you know, it's off in some corner, so it's sort of dirty and greasy
• 1:28:36
  and it's like ice when you're on it.
• 1:28:38
  One of the lots we used to go to the asphalt was coming up so you'd
• 1:28:41
  get, uh, wagon wheels, you know, of debris, little pebbles and stuff.
• 1:28:45
  So if that was the line, there was no, choose your line, it's
• 1:28:48
  stay out of, out of the stones.
• 1:28:50
  And then you're talking about tom elevations or features in the parking
• 1:28:54
  lot, the American Autocross series, uh, that I ran in California, uh, one lot
• 1:28:58
  that they would use had, you know, a big, like a drainage bump in the middle of.
• 1:29:03
  They would use that as some sort of a banking curve, you know, so they'd do a
• 1:29:07
  banked curve, you know, and get you slowed down and then do a U-turn or something.
• 1:29:11
  Whereas other organizations that would use that lot, they would just go straight
• 1:29:16
  across that drainage dump, you know, and you'd be jumping your car, breaking
• 1:29:20
  suspension, you know, depending on what it was making an unsafe situation where, you
• 1:29:24
  know, one time it was, you know, go over that jump and then make a, a hard, right.
• 1:29:28
  Well, you know, a lot of people just went straight because you
• 1:29:31
  know, you can't break in the air.
• 1:29:32
  Right.
• 1:29:32
  So, yeah, absolutely different lots.
• 1:29:34
  And even, you know, that same, you know, I liked going to the events with, you
• 1:29:39
  know, that one club because they use the terrain, whereas other clubs didn't
• 1:29:44
  necessarily pay attention to that.
• 1:29:46
  So, I mean, it could be, try a different club, maybe that club uses.
• 1:29:50
  The lot more effectively.
• 1:29:51
  Even just where they set their trailer or where they have the staging or
• 1:29:55
  where they like to put the lights or they want to have the entrance
• 1:29:58
  on one side versus the other.
• 1:30:00
  Try a different organization at the same lot and you might have a
• 1:30:03
  completely different experience.
• 1:30:05
  And I think asphalt's probably more variable than concrete in terms
• 1:30:08
  of its grip, let's call it that, because it also depends on the
• 1:30:12
  composition of the asphalt itself.
• 1:30:14
  Right?
• 1:30:14
  I've been to some lots that just tend to bleed sand.
• 1:30:17
  It's insane just because the asphalt's so porous versus you've
• 1:30:21
  auto crossed the summit point on multiples of the tracks up there.
• 1:30:25
  And the asphalt using a racetrack is completely different than
• 1:30:27
  that using a parking lot.
• 1:30:28
  So your grip factors are kind of all over the map.
• 1:30:31
  Concrete's, uh, uh, to your point is way more consistent, right?
• 1:30:34
  It's kind of, eh, there's different mixtures there too, but not
• 1:30:36
  nearly as extreme as asphalt where you have different sealants and
• 1:30:39
  how old is it and you know how beaten by the sun and all this.
• 1:30:43
  I think again, that brings back some replay value.
• 1:30:45
  To your point, Todd, about going to the same lot multiple times.
• 1:30:49
  You might not have had a great experience with that one club.
• 1:30:51
  The course layout didn't work for that lot, but another course
• 1:30:54
  layout might have been awesome.
• 1:30:56
  And so that's another bring it back.
• 1:30:58
  Try it again.
• 1:30:58
  Keep going after it.
• 1:30:59
  You know, don't let your first or or second time ruin the experience.
• 1:31:03
  Try and try.
• 1:31:04
  You're gonna become a better driver during that entire process.
• 1:31:07
  And Tom said he went to nationals or has gone to nationals a couple times, and that
• 1:31:11
  the courses flowed together pretty well.
• 1:31:13
  Well, I went to Nationals once.
• 1:31:15
  It seemed one of the courses was just horrendous.
• 1:31:18
  Didn't flow at all for me and, and my driving style or
• 1:31:21
  the car I was in or whatever.
• 1:31:22
  Right.
• 1:31:22
  But, you know, you go back the next day and you're like, oh,
• 1:31:25
  hey look, this, this is fun.
• 1:31:27
  So, I mean, absolutely.
• 1:31:29
  If you, you know, if you quit after just one bad event, right?
• 1:31:32
  You're gonna have a lot of bad events.
• 1:31:34
  You're gonna have a lot of bad courses.
• 1:31:35
  You're gonna have courses that you don't like, courses that don't fit your
• 1:31:38
  car, that don't fit your driving style.
• 1:31:40
  It's gonna be too hot, too cold, too wet, not enough traction.
• 1:31:44
  You got the purple crack guys that you know, you know that,
• 1:31:48
  that want ultimate traction.
• 1:31:49
  You got the 200 tread wear guys that are like, Hey man, I'm
• 1:31:51
  trying to drive my car home.
• 1:31:53
  So you, you just never know what you're gonna get.
• 1:31:55
  You gotta try a couple of them and, and see what shakes out.
• 1:31:58
  It's not gonna be the perfect experience all time.
• 1:32:00
  I believe for Gump said it's like a box of chocolates.
• 1:32:02
  Right?
• 1:32:03
  Right.
• 1:32:05
  Just as a reminder for everybody that's listening.
• 1:32:07
  I wanna summarize everything that we've captured here.
• 1:32:09
  We've gone off the deep end.
• 1:32:10
  We've talked, we've shared a lot of stories.
• 1:32:12
  We've talked about a lot of really interesting things.
• 1:32:14
  But if you're trying to learn about autocross for the first time, I just wanna
• 1:32:17
  remind you that Autocross is a performance driving event and a safe way to learn
• 1:32:22
  how you can drive your car at its limits.
• 1:32:24
  Events are run at speeds, usually between 40 and 65 miles an
• 1:32:28
  hour commonly in second gear.
• 1:32:30
  You not only learn how to handle your car at speeds that you
• 1:32:33
  drive daily, but you also gain confidence in your driving ability.
• 1:32:38
  You learn the livings of your car's brakes, you learn the correct
• 1:32:41
  seating, hand and feet positions.
• 1:32:43
  And of course you learn the limits of your car's, tire adhesion and do donuts.
• 1:32:49
  And on top of all that, Otter Cross is a social gathering of new and old friends.
• 1:32:53
  And it's a heck of a lot of fun if you couldn't tell from all the stories
• 1:32:57
  that we shared on this episode.
• 1:32:58
  Sure.
• 1:32:58
  And then, you know, the, one of the events that I was going to was a two
• 1:33:01
  day event, you know, and it's like car classing and all that stuff.
• 1:33:04
  For the longest time I thought Cam was, who knew how to barbecue
• 1:33:09
  and tell the best lies, right?
• 1:33:11
  Because you'd hurry up, get the racing over with, and then, you
• 1:33:13
  know, the barbecue grills would come out and the bench racing.
• 1:33:17
  And you know, even here when we're at Summit Point, I'll throw out the
• 1:33:20
  barbecue grill, you know, at lunchtime.
• 1:33:22
  And even if you're just throwing hot dogs on, you say, Hey,
• 1:33:24
  did you have anything to eat?
• 1:33:25
  Here's a wiener and you know, what car are you in?
• 1:33:27
  And so comradery, definitely a part of anything car related, right?
• 1:33:32
  Yeah.
• 1:33:33
  Does not just show up, do your thing, and leave.
• 1:33:36
  There's a lot more, some of my best friends in California
• 1:33:39
  are my car racing buddies.
• 1:33:41
  Right.
• 1:33:41
  My autocross buddies.
• 1:33:42
  Right.
• 1:33:42
  I still keep in touch with those, you know.
• 1:33:45
  They, they still know that I burn the food, so they're
• 1:33:48
  gonna run the barbecue, right?
• 1:33:51
  I, I'll say, uh, you know, it's a great bunch of folks.
• 1:33:54
  My car, I was headed for, uh, nationals this year, but my car blew up on the Dino.
• 1:33:59
  My good friend Eric Anderson from up in Knoxville, Tennessee, called me up and
• 1:34:03
  offered me a co drive and 400 horsepower SSM Miata, which was a lot of fun.
• 1:34:08
  I, uh, was a tire warmer.
• 1:34:10
  Eric did win his class.
• 1:34:11
  And, uh, his usual co-driver, uh, Randall Wilcox won the, uh,
• 1:34:16
  XP class in that car as well.
• 1:34:18
  So that was a, a nice gesture on his part and I, uh, really
• 1:34:21
  appreciated him, uh, doing that.
• 1:34:23
  I was gonna be sitting at home with one for them.
• 1:34:24
  So, to learn more about autocross, be sure to check out our website, gt
• 1:34:29
  motorsports.org, and search autocross or check out the show notes for
• 1:34:34
  links to additional tutorials and more things you can learn about this
• 1:34:38
  sport, even if you're a veteran.
• 1:34:40
  Maybe some top tips in there that you weren't aware of, but you can also hop
• 1:34:44
  over to the Gospel of all things autocross scca.com and learn about Autocross
• 1:34:50
  Track Cross and Pro Solo, as well as reviewing all of their comprehensive rules
• 1:34:56
  about these disciplines of motorsport.
• 1:34:58
  And more importantly, if you wanna follow Tom and his progress,
• 1:35:02
  you can follow him on The Little Race Shop of Horrors on YouTube.
• 1:35:07
  And Todd Day, tooth, goat, tiger.
• 1:35:10
  Uh, just about everything.
• 1:35:12
  Instagram.
• 1:35:13
  Facebook.
• 1:35:13
  Instagram.
• 1:35:13
  Yeah.
• 1:35:14
  Gmail, Facebook.
• 1:35:15
  Well, guys, this has been a ton of fun.
• 1:35:18
  I really do appreciate you guys coming on the show and being able to share your
• 1:35:23
  passion and your stories about autocross and hopefully reaching out to some folks
• 1:35:27
  that might be on the fence about coming to their first event or reinvigorating
• 1:35:32
  folks for next season as we're all turning wrenches here in the winter.
• 1:35:36
  Getting ready for the 2022 autocross season.
• 1:35:40
  Well, gentlemen, again, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show.
• 1:35:43
  This has been.
• 1:35:44
  Absolute blast and a lot of fun.
• 1:35:46
  So we look forward to seeing you both next season out on track somewhere, or
• 1:35:49
  maybe on a subsequent break fix episode.
• 1:35:53
  Absolutely.
• 1:35:54
  Thanks.
• 1:35:59
  That's right, listeners.
• 1:36:00
  If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our Patreon
• 1:36:04
  for a follow on pitstop Mini.
• 1:36:08
  So check that out on www.patreon.com/gt motorsports and get access to
• 1:36:14
  all sorts of behind the scenes content from this episode and more.
• 1:36:19
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• 1:36:23
  check us out on www.gt motorsports.org.
• 1:36:27
  You can also find us on Instagram at Grand Tour Motorsports.
• 1:36:30
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• 1:36:34
  or text us at (202) 630-1770 or send us an email at Crew chief@gtmotorsports.org.
• 1:36:42
  We'd love to hear from you.
• 1:36:44
  Hey everybody, crew Chief Eric here.
• 1:36:46
  We really hope you enjoyed this episode of Break Fix, and we wanted
• 1:36:50
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• 1:36:55
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• 1:37:32
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