Latest / Skin Anarchy / Skin Game Changer: MyMicrobiome's Microbial Mastery for a Fresh, Vibrant Glow - E.448

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Skin Game Changer: MyMicrobiome's Microbial Mastery for a Fresh, Vibrant Glow - E.448 · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so right before the episode starts, I just wanted to mention that the microbiome is a topic that I know a lot of you are so, so interested in, and rightfully so.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: I myself am extremely interested in this topic as well, and I loved this conversation with Dr.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Newman.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: However, I want to mention to you that we will be doing a full-blown masterclass with Codex Beauty, which is now known as Codex Labs.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we're gonna be talking about the microbiome, and because Codex is a leader in microbiome-friendly products, it's going to be a really, really great opportunity for all of you who are interested in this field, who want to start utilizing products that are microbiome friendly, to really tune in and kind of expand your knowledge about this.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is a really great resource for everybody out there, whether you're a consumer or an aesthetician or a dermatologist or a surgeon or anyone who is interested in this field.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: I really recommend you guys tune in for that beautiful masterclass.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to kick off with the amazing Barbara Paladis, who is the founder of Codex Labs, and it's going to expand into um, you know, just interviewing different members of the team and really kind of guiding us through the understanding of the microbiome as we know it today, as it pertains to skin health.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my little PSA right before the episode.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, even Dr.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Kristen Newman, who I spoke to in this episode, she recommended that I interview Codex, and I had to tell her, like, no, I already am, we already have something in the works, and so um, I really want you guys to stay tuned for that.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're gonna really enjoy it, and it's really up the alley of what everything we stand for here at Skunk Anarchy, which is just science, knowledge, facts, information, all that good stuff.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, thought I would I would give it a huge shout out, and stay tuned because this episode is really fantastic and it really sets the stage to be honest, for this beautiful masterclass coming up.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, guys.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Hi guys, welcome back this week in Anarchy.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is your host, Ecta, and I have such a wonderful guest with me today.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she is really a pioneer in what we are now embarking on as an entire community of scientists, um, you know, professionals in the space of cosmetic science, aesthetics, whatever you want to call it, skin health.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it it's it's a very new and emerging field, and so I couldn't think of a better person to invite onto the show to discuss the microbiome as it pertains to our skin.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so without further ado, I'm gonna introduce you guys to Dr.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Kristen Newman, um, who is the founder of My Microbiome.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show, Dr.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Newman.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to host you.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Hector, for having me.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited to be here.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm really, really excited to talk to you in depth about this because I feel like I've been doing my due diligence, you know, not being uh the expert that you are, but I've been trying my best to get the word out about the microbiome.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: But of course, I'm going to be picking your brain during the conversation about the details that we don't know about as general consumers.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I want to start the episode off first by asking you about your own career path, how you went into microbiology.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what was the whole uh trajectory uh of your academia life, if you could tell us more about that?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm happy to do so.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a PhD in microbiology, and I was uh studying biology because I was always very interested and curious on how life works, but in its tiny little uh details.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I ended up with um yeah, looking at the microbes because they are impacting our health.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And when I started it, actually, I didn't look at the microbiome, of course, because it wasn't a big topic back then.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's a long time ago already.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh I was rather looking at it from a pathogenic perspective and looking at microbes, how they make us sick, and uh, but learning more and more, and then going into like when I finished my PhD, I was I didn't want to stay at the university because I wanted to do something um uh with hands-on uh things that are working uh directly with our as humans, and so I ended up in a company called Lysendo where we developed um new antimicrobials that would um be able to replace antibiotics because we have a lot of problems with antibiotics, um, starting with this resistance, and but also they are not working selectively and killing off our microbiome when using them.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: So uh and this technology we are working, we were working on, they're still working on it, um, is selectively working and uh thereby not harming the microbiome when removing the pathogenic microbes, and that was leading me to the microbiome field, actually, where I am now.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow, that's very interesting.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I like what you said about the uh substituting the antibiotics.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think that you know, we always talk about as a medical community, we always talk about things like, oh, there's an opiate crisis or there's a you know, this kind of crisis, but no one wants to talk about the extreme levels of you know drug-resistant microbes that are plaguing, you know, the world of healthcare right now and have been, right?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's very interesting that you mentioned that.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I wanna I wanna actually go systematically with this because for a lot of our audience, you know, the microbiome is is it's a buzzword these days, you know.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm sure you've seen it, you know, in the marketing um around skincare products, it it's really coming out.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad in a way, because it's you know, keep coming out to the forefront and people know what the word means sort of now.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I want you to define what is our microbiome for our audience so that they can understand it and really approach it with a better understanding.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so by definition, very strictly seeing, the microbiome is the genome, there's also the genes of all microbes that live on it in us, and it's mostly bacteria by 95%, and then it's also fungi, uh, viruses, uh, yeasts that belong to the fungi, and uh also eukaryotes, so little uh tiny animals that live on our bodies.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but you most people, even scientists, use the word microbiome as when they want to actually, or when they are referring to the microbes and not the genetics, but very strictly defined it's the genetics.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: But everyone's talking about the microbiome, and they mean in most of the times they mean the microbes that live in an onus, and it's probably most of the people have heard about it when uh talking about the gut.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the gut microbiome is already very well known, I think, and um but it's everywhere, it's not only in the gut, uh also on our skin.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is very new to a lot of people that we are also covered with microbes on our skin, and that we really uh need it.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not only skin, it's the lung, it's the mouth, it's the vagina, which is also very um tricky area, and um well, everywhere in every area that is.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad that you mentioned the the genetics part because I think that's something that people miss is that they think that the microbiome, you like you said, you know, it's just the live organisms, and you know, it's just different strains of bacteria, and that's it.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, to really talk about the actual genetics of it is something that you know we don't hear very often.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so I really want to dive into this a little bit deeper because I think that, you know, um obviously, you know, we're we're talking about a very, very large topic here, but especially when it comes to skin health, you know, there's a lot of people, especially in the industry that are either brands or you know, maybe even consumers, and they say that, well, I want a healthy microbiome.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that concept to me, it doesn't sit very well because I don't think that there's a way to say healthy microbiome without you know it sounding like an oxymoron.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I would like your perspective on that.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: What is a quote healthy microbiome as it pertains to skin?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: And how can we really figure out, you know, um if our microbiome is healthy?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a very good question.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I cannot answer it really uh in a direct answer because we don't know what the healthy microbiome is.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't found out yet, and there will probably never be one healthy microbiome for everyone, so it's uh depending on a lot of factors.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um currently the research is focusing on on the microbes, on the strains that live on our skin.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: But in the future, I think we have to more focus on their functions because we know that different bacteria can have different functions or the same functions.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So your microbiome might uh look completely different than mine with uh bacteria strain-wise, but our functions are the same, so they might look different, but are they both healthy?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it but it's not only depending on that, but also on our lifestyle, on the live the area we live in.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: A lot is depending on our genetics, and um, so for everyone, everyone has its own unique microbiome, and I think everyone has its own healthy microbiome.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: We know that there's some key species out there that must be uh on everyone's skin, and this is also how we do the testing.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the the deeper we dive, the more complex it gets, and the less we understand.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh yeah, it's there will never be this is also why it's so so hard to work with it because we don't know where to go.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's you know, that's interesting you said that because it's always you know, I always bring this topic up, and I again for those of you who are uh regular listeners, I'm sure you've heard this many times come out of my mouth, which is you know, the I think of the microbiome as a fingerprint, you know, it's it's different for everybody.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I would love for you to actually tell us about what are some of the main species of bacteria that we find on the surface of our skin, because the microbiome and what microbes are are beyond just bacteria.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: However, I'm more interested in bacterial species because we uh have a lot of products that are gearing towards, you know, either their survival or their, you know, them being able to thrive in that environment, carry out things like metabolic processes.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love for you to tell us a little bit about the real, um, you know, the names and what these bacteria are, and you know, uh just anything you can provide.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, so we mainly find a lot, so maybe let's start with uh how our body is built.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the we have different, actually, different environments on our skin.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Not every skin area of our body is the same.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we have dry, moist zebacous areas, and um the armpits are moist, for example.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: The skin is mostly zebaccous and um and uh the underarms, for example, are dry.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: So when in these different areas you find different um habitats and different colonization by microbes, so the zebacous areas are more dominated by Cutibacterium acnes, which were formerly called propionibacterium acnes, and they are also uh correlated to acne lesions, but uh in fact they are necessary for a healthy skin.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they are uh yeah, they are really love to eat our sevum, and that is what makes them thrive on the back of skin, but they're also protecting our skin uh against uh pathogenic invaders.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then we find a lot of Staphylococcus epidermites uh on our on all skin areas, and then there's carinobacteria, different ones, and but also others like streptococci, other staphylococci, and what you find also everywhere on the skin is Malaysetia species that's a yeast.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we are this is also something that uh we consider when we test products.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's very interesting.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, I um I'm interested, especially because you know, you had mentioned about for for example cutie bacterium.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's a it's interesting to me what that you brought up about acne, because I think when people think about bacteria on the skin, that's the first thing they think about is acne lesions, you know.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's because we've been conditioned over time as consumers to just believe that, you know, if you have a breakout or if something's happening on your skin's surface that you can physically see and you know it's some sort of damage or acne or lesion, it's caused by bacteria.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's a problem with the bacteria.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: So um my big uh question for you is is that you know, now that we know from a dermatology standpoint that, you know, when you have the process of acne formation, right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's about uh, you know, for example, the bacteria will go down um the root of the follicle, they will go into the actual follicle, um, and then you know, create chaos there.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what really starts the process of developing acne.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now, my question for you is how does that play into how bacteria normally thrive and exist on our skin surface?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, is there something that makes them go kind of you know more towards the direction of, oh, you know what?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go into the follicles and cause chaos versus just saying I'm just gonna be here, you know, I'm happy.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's really like uh a little bit like you're saying, they are the microbes are there, and the important thing is that they should be in balance.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So uh they should every every microbe that is actually supposed to be good can become bad if it's overgrowing the others and overproducing what it is, whatever it is producing, and then we have too much of it or too little of the other ones that are produced or of the other metabolic metabolic metabolites that are the others are producing.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all about the balance.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh specifically for C acnes, we have we found out, or scientists found out, that there are different C acnes strains, and um we have them all on our skin and they're happy and balanced.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as something happens, which mostly comes uh in from our home on shift or something from in from inside our bodies, that is leading, that is giving the the bad guys, the bad C acne guys, um more fruit uh to thrive, and they are then having the chance to overgrow the others.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um they are already in our follicles, but they are exploding then, and that is causing the problem.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it's so it's uh it's not only uh being looking isolated at the microbiome, but it's our whole organism, and something happens in our bodies that is leading to some um changes in the environment of the microbes, and then they behave different.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's very interesting, and I and I find that to be, you know, uh it's a great answer.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for for giving that answer because I think that it's really important for consumers to understand that there is this balance, you know, there is a constant balance to be maintained.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, going back to your original um comment about gut gut microbiome, right?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we often learn, you know, I think uh a lot of people are aware of this is that, you know, there's a lot of gut disorders that have to do with the dysbiosis that occurs, you know, in in your, you know, with age or whatever it might be.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, one of the main things is like, for example, hospitalized patients end up getting uh Clostridium difficile, you know, and then it takes over the gut, and that's because your gut got wiped out because of all the antibiotics you were taking, you know, so the bad bacteria overgrow in that region.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if you take that at the same concept and we apply it to the skin, my big question for you really becomes um, you know, what are the things that are causing the stripping of our skin to where the bad strains and the bad species are allowed to overgrow and then also cause this chaos.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, if you could give us a little bit like of a 101 on the things we should be doing or avoiding uh when it comes to over stripping the skin, you know, to avoid this kind of situation.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if we follow on this conversation about acne, I think the worst thing is you can do there is to uh eradicate the whole microbiome when you have uh problems there, because then uh the acne, uh the bad guys, they uh even have a better chance to flourish and grow because everyone else is also gone.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, and that's the the starting point also relating to antibiotics.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Everything you do on your skin, um, you have to be aware that you have a microbiome and you have to keep the balance in order to keep it healthy.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um with every product we are using, we need to look at this product and ask ourselves, what is this product doing?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, of course, to my skin, to the skin barrier, and to my to my microbiome.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, these stripping um products they are uh well, how should I say it?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: They are a bomb for our microbiome.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: So they are reducing or not, they're um removing all the microbes, but also the the skin cells that are food for the microbes and the sebum.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And uh after using it, of course, your skin looks very like peeled and fresh, but it is actually not the healthy status of the skin, and it's also impairing a skin barrier.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we know that the skin barrier and the microbiome are closely interacting.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if the skin barrier is impaired, it is leading to a dysbiose microbiome and vice versa.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and um if we go further with washing and with everything we do and apply on our bodies, we need to be very careful when choosing products and which effect they can have on our body.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: No, uh one of my I think one of my follow-up questions would be then, you know, um, for example, like if somebody is doing something too much, you know, if they're using too many acid peels or they're doing too much stripping, you know, like we just talked about, and the the skin barrier is getting damaged, you know, regardless.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's whether that's physical damage, whether that's microcarriage, whatever you want to call it, you know, something's happening to where you're damaging your skin barrier.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: What are the steps you can take to then bring yourself back to balance um in terms of using, you know, whether it's products, whether it's the eating habits, diet, dietary habits to bring that microbiome and that, you know, the balance back to normal, you know, and and bring everything to homeostasis.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: What are some of your tips for you know people that are?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I would rather, I would rather recommend um like if your microbiome is out of balance, if the skin is out of balance, to the best thing to do if to leave it alone and not to apply any product if possible, and um and eat, of course, uh it's also coming from inside, eat healthy, eat uh a very um colorful diet, um, and be sure to be like live a healthy life, like everything, like be outside, get uh have uh some exercise and not so much stress and so on, but it's because it's all of course connected.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um I just recently had a very dry spot on my skin, and I I always have like very tolerant skin to everything, but I I uh stopped using my makeup that I usually use, and uh it's getting better now.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think um if you have an issue, then I would stop using products if it's possible and wait until it's gone and of course try to be live healthy.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Makes sense.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: No, that makes sense, and I think uh that's kind of what they tell us, you know.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: If if everything goes bad, just stop what you're doing, just stop everything, stop in place, you know, and just let things come back because the human body is so versatile, you know, and it's so uh resilient.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I I love what you said, and I think that's that's a really, really great advice.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I hope everyone listening you you took notes on that part because sometimes we get so frustrated when we see that our schedule is damaged or that it's breaking out or that something's happening that we are so inclined to go buy more products or go find new products, but really the You know, like Dr.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Newman said, the best thing we can do is say, wait a minute, let me give myself, you know, some time and come back to normal.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that you said that, Dr.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Newman.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's really, really important.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I I really want people to kind of grasp that idea because unfortunately, you know, I don't know why we do this.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: We don't do this with ever any other organ in our body, but with the skin, we just say, okay, you know, more is more is better, you know, so let's just keep going until we completely destroy everything.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, I I want people to avoid that.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: So um my next question is, you know, I want to know in terms of you know, we talked about acne, we talked about like all this like inflammatory uh process that happens in acne, but um really you know, the question becomes more about these all these products that exist, right, in the market.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like you've got prebiotics, probiotics, postbiotics.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what is your opinion about all of that?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, do you think they're necessary?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that we need them, you know, in terms of products or wellness?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, do you think that you know what do you think about it?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's yeah, it's very um, we need to be very careful about those products.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a handful of products, I would say, in the market in the world, that do have a nice effect on a skin barrier, and they have shown it in with very good studies and data.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: But most of the products um we see on the market and they're claiming around is uh is very questionable because yeah, most of the times they are relating to the microbiome or they make the customer assume that probiotics, prebiotics do something good for the microbiome, uh, but they don't even know what if exact effect they have on the microbiome.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: And increasing some microbes, as I said before, that are supposed to be on the skin is also not sure, it's also not sure if this is something that is good for the uh for the skin.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so I don't want to say that those products are bad, but we have to be very cautious about them.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think we need them, but some I know some of them have really good effects on on the skin barrier, on on inflammation, and so on.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are interested in these products, I would really dive into the data behind, and if they there's uh good data, then it's okay to buy it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: But if not, then I would save that money.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just like stay away if you don't know.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Now, what about the difference between uh pre uh you know pro and postbiotics?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, what is the difference when it comes to skin hormones?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, probiotics are actually um live microorganisms that are uh conferring a benefit to the host, and it's coming from the nutrition area, it should be a health benefit to the host for cosmetics, it should be a cosmetic benefit.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, but the crucial part here is that probiotics need to be alive.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And um, the FDA found out, I think it was 2019, even in the USA, that only 90% of so-called probiotics are really probiotics because aren't probiotics.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: 90% of the products on the market aren't probiotics because they're not alive, so it's also already starting here, and then um if so most products are lyophyllised or inactivated cells, and they are rather going into the postbiotics or parabiotics space, and let's go to the prebiotics first.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Prebiotics are um nutrients for the microbes that are beneficial for us.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And here's also again the question: which prebiotics do make sense on the skin?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because most prebiotics we see in products, in skin products, are taken from what we know from the gut, but we have very different bacteria in the gut than on the skin.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: So also here the data is not very um solid and robust.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And for the postbiotics, these are metabolites or um substrate that derive from microbes, and this is also including um parts of microbes or inactivated dead microbes, and these can also have an effect on the on the on certain either on the skin or on the microbiome, and but the it must be analyzed very good.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: But these are I think the most promising because um here you can work with the metabolites of microbes where you know what the effect should be, and you can study it very well, and um it's easier also to apply um postbiotics into a product rather than uh living organisms, which is very hard to make them survive in a cream or a lotion because it's normally not the environment they like very much.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, I know.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: I always wonder, I'm like, how did you get uh live organisms in this cream that you packaged about a year ago?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean there's there's some companies that manage to do so, they have patented their technologies, they encapsulated them, or they um the products don't contain preservatives, something like that, because the preservatives, of course, would also kill them.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, but it's not this is a tricky part, I think.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, but some manage to do it, but only a few.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm it makes me wonder though, you know, uh in all honesty, uh Dr.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: Newman, about really where we're headed as an industry with this topic, because I think that um, you know, obviously, like, you know, individuals and experts like yourself know what you're talking about, but we don't really see a lot of this kind of um insight, you know, into how we should be approaching this topic, how we should be applying this topic.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, I'm all I'm a firm believer in in medicine and medical research, but I am also a believer in the application.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where my my opinion is that we're failing in the application part because we know all this stuff and we have all this data, but like where's the you know, where are the products that are actually really good?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: So um I think my question for you is, you know, what is your mission with my microbiome?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like what why did you begin, you know, the organization, the company, and what what is the mission for you guys?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so our our our vision is actually a better microbiome-friendly world.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it started with, as I said, when we when I worked with the microbiome and the antibacterials, and I saw that even in my community, in the scientific community, the word microbiome didn't ring a bell.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: So uh the idea initially was that to create awareness around the topic with an information platform that we still have.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: But when we dive deeper into that area, we saw what is going on in the industry, and that's why we came up with the idea of developing a certification to be able to um substantiate claims that are out there and to make sense um in this space because there's a lot of claiming that is still not substantial because substantial because it's um it's overclaiming, like if you want to if a product claims to improve or nourish, balance, whatever the microbiome, that is something we cannot prove at the moment.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we are so we came uh with the idea to make it really simple and go for the testing of products because we know that most cosmetic products that you find in the shelves are harming the microbiome.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and at least the least thing they should do is not to harm it or not to influence it, and that is what we do with the certification.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's interesting because I think you know, testing is the best way to go about anything.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I really believe that you know, we don't have enough companies out there that are testing for things, you know, they're not really validating things is the is the real, I think, best word is you know, this idea of like, well, any XYZ company shouldn't be able to say, this just works, you know, we know it works.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, where's the data, right?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the where are the clinical trials?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Where are the experts?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that's I'm I'm I'm glad that you've taken this on that you're really kind of spearheading this because I mean, you know, the microbiome or anything really that has to do with microbiology for me in general, you know, whether that's virology, whatever, it's very complex.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: And this these subdisciplines of you know medical science are just so, so you know, complicated, especially with signaling, and the deeper you go, the less you know.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I'm really happy to see that you are, you know, doing something so advanced and and so good for this industry because we need that.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: We really need that.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, now my next question is really for you to help educate our audience even more because I know that um a lot of people have products in their, you know, in their cupboard or wherever in their bathroom that are literally being marketed as microbiome friendly.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think my question is what are some of the things?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know you had mentioned sebum and you had mentioned some things that our normal bacteria feed off of, right?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: And on our skin.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, what is it that, you know, is really the main source of like, you know, keeping them healthy, keeping them robust, keeping the colonies, you know, uh just not overpopulating, but making sure that we have the right amount of like, for example, oil production or making sure that our skin is like what are those kind of things that you think are important for us to understand as consumers when it comes to just feeding those microbes?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's a very tricky question because um I think it's not more, it's not, I would go not wouldn't go for cosmetic products in order to enhance my microbiome, but uh look uh deeper into my lifestyle and diet.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is having a bigger influence on the microbiome than uh adding products.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And for the products, I would go the other way around and uh try to use as few products as possible and with as few ingredients as possible, and um so not look for products that are improving my microbiome, but thinking about the skincare routine I'm working with and uh look if I can skip something here and there and also use it less often.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I would always recommend to only if I'm using products that uh try to use them as mild as possible and not to use them too often.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I wouldn't, of course, for example, if I don't wear makeup on my face, and of course it depends on where we live.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I it's fine to wash your face in the evening with water.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you want to remove the makeup, then it's then oil would be the best, and not overwash the body.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: And when washing, use very mild uh washes, not shower too hot because this is also hot water, it's removing your sevum as well, and like all these things, like everything that is going closer to nature is probably good for your microbiome.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: Makes sense, that makes sense, yeah.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean I mean, I think it's it's really about just being, you know, like you said, you know, be close to nature, be normal, just don't overdo it.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that makes sense.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I think also one of the big questions I have is that, you know, we have a lot of people and a lot of products that say, well, microbes secrete certain enzymes and they secrete certain things that are gonna help break down, um, you know, for example, uh lipids on the surface of your skin or sugars or diet, you know, whatever it is, right?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that metabolism that's occurring because of these microorganisms, that is extremely important for skin health.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, what is your take on that?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, is it really, you know, what what's going on here?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how much is really happening on the skin surface when it comes to the breakdown of you know certain things like carbohydrates or sugars or lipids, like I said.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, well, um, yeah, that's uh that's not my my expertise too much, but um well, if the product is showing really uh good data and the the behind what it's claiming and with the metabolites and the breaking down of metabolites in this specific area and the specific age to whatever it's making sense and it's proven by um publications or data, then it's fine.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: But um normally the skin is uh able to do its thing on its own.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: But we know, for example, if the skin is aging, we have uh we produce less sebum and uh thus the skin gets drier, and we have also we find less corinobac uh crucibacterium acnes on it.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: So uh helping there with some enzymes might be helpful because we know what we are lacking.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for example, uh also uh antioxidant uh stress um antioxidatives, for example, like these things might help with um healthy aging um healthier, but uh normally for healthy young skin, I would say um we don't need anything to add to the skin because it's doing its job on its own.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting, interesting, yeah.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because I, you know, I hear that argument a lot.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I brought it up because it's I don't think much you know much is really known about that either.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: The you know the metabolites and and which metabolites are important, what are not, you know, the that kind of information.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I haven't even seen it in the literature, really.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I it's very hard to find.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: So um I don't think anyone's really an expert.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think for the metabolites, we for especially for the microbiome, we really need to deep dive into that and the data, we don't have data yet.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I hope that um with the new technology, of course, that it's also relying on the technologies that are available and how expensive they are, and then sooner or later they can be used in a broad mass research, like everyone on the university, they're also relying on their budgets, and um so far it's not been really possible to investigate on that, but I think it's coming.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh more important even than looking at the strains we find there.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: No, I agree.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know if you've heard of, I'm sure you have the heard of the brand uh Editrix, but I interviewed them uh a while ago.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: Editrix is this is brand, it's a brand uh completely based on the idea of providing the nutrients your normal uh microflora need, you know, and and kind of it's kind of like the idea of like providing a broth and skincare formulation for those bacteria.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I I found it to be a really interesting like approach, but um, you know, the the products are pretty nice, but uh I would, you know, I'd be interested to see what you think about the the whole line, you know, if you tried it.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: But um I think there are some brands, you know, they're trying, they're doing their best.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, one thing I I really run into and I see a lot of is that, you know, like you said, it's very expensive.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: These technologies, this this research is very expensive to conduct.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, for anyone listening out there, I don't know how much you guys know about, you know, funding and stuff for you know laboratories and especially with microbiology, there's a lot of uh, you know, benchside research that is going on, but you know, the funding has to be in the millions, you know, it has to be really, really up there.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we don't have that, you're not gonna see a lot of innovation come out in this field because the amount of money it takes just to run the right experiments, you know, and to maintain cell cultures and all these little nitty-gritty things that are part of a lab and running a microbiology lab, these are things that cost money.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, for a long time, Dr.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Newman, I I was always asking, like, you know, these, like, for example, if I invite on executives that were, you know, very well funded, I would always ask, like, well, why don't we create a grant system?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean, within the cosmetic industry, like create a grant system so that we don't have to always rely on the NIH, you know, because at the end of the day, these things require a lot of money, you know, and so I would love to see if there's any BCs out there or anyone listening, like I would love to see somebody start a fund for just researching the microbiome.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because at this point, I don't think, you know, it's plausible for us to like divide into different brands and different companies and say we're just gonna do it and we're gonna figure it.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, it needs to be a concerted effort, I think, uh, in terms of the industry.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I I I don't know, that's my opinion.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I would I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think about that?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that would be the ideal case, so that we have like everyone's working together to achieve uh more knowledge and to share it with everyone, but that's not how it works, you know.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: So spoken like a true scientist, straight to the point.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I mean I I agree.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I guess my my rounding out question for you really is, you know, um, just any words of wisdom you have, you know, for budding scientists, for you know, current scientists, maybe PhD candidates, uh, anyone who's going into this field, you know, any advice you have about how to approach microbiology now as it is, you know, especially if you're interested in the fields of like cosmetic science and stuff, you know, as a as a subdiscipline, uh, any advice you can offer.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, something that I learned and um what I would like to give to, especially those that you mentioned, is that um you always have to question what people tell you and be really uh annoying and ask those questions if you think something is not logic or you don't see enough um data, then ask for them and ask why is that and why do you say this and um be really curious about everything because we really don't know a lot and we need to find out out very much.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, if you have the chance to to to work on a very exciting topic, then go for it and yeah, I wish you good luck to to get all the funding for it.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, yeah.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's great, that's great, that's great advice, and I and I you know I wish everyone the best out there if you're a student, if you're somebody looking into going into a PhD program for microbiology, you know, I please pay heed to Dr.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: Newman's words, they're very true, and you know, it's it's a hard field, but you know, if if you're smart, you can do it.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: So uh yeah, I I like that.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: But uh thank you so much, Dr.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Newman.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: This has been so lovely to host you, and I've learned so much from you.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just you know, it's been this brief conversation, and I would love to have you back anytime that you have the time in your schedule to talk more in depth about anything.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so thank you so much.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Bye-bye.
• 41:12
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