Latest / Skin Anarchy / Better Hair Begins With Better Water Ft. Culligan & Bridgette Hill

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Better Hair Begins With Better Water Ft. Culligan & Bridgette Hill · Skin Anarchy

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Today's a really special episode because we're going to be talking about everything related to scalp health and just the journey that we all take with our hair health, especially right now with you know how many things are kind of blossoming, I feel like, you know, whether it's products or education or everyone seems to be buzzing about wanting to understand the hair and the health around the scalp and the hair better.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: So with that said, um, I'd love to introduce you guys to our guest today who is truly an expert um in the area.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: She is a renowned tricologist.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Bridget Hill.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Bridget.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to host you.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm really excited, Bridget, to dive into your background.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: You have quite an impressive career.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to learn more about what got you into um tricology and if you could share that with us and walk us down memory lane.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: So uh in my career, beginning as an editorial colorist, um I dealt with a lot of models who had to transition between different just hair colors for different brands or different projects they were on.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, 20 years ago, just the science of color technology was nothing where it is now.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the chemicals were really harsh.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: You weren't really incorporating oil-based aspects into developers and peroxides, the way that technology has expanded over the years.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: So maintaining the quality of the hair fiber was something really important for me.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in my process of making a lot of transitions from just an aesthetic standpoint with color, again, protecting hair fibers in different ways.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that started my understanding with just hair fiber is a total different conversation than what's happening at the scalp.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: The scalp situation became more obvious to me in doing high-processed colors for sure, with high lift bleach, just seeing some of the results of the discomfort that clients would experience, um, redness, flakiness, and clients sometimes really being allergic to those ingredients and not really understanding or having a way to explain to them what they're experiencing.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: That allowed me to look into brands that dealt with more holistic approach to scalp, which introduced me to Renee Froderer.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And in that time, I began to understand the importance of the hair follicle, followed by my own personal experience of being diagnosed with a genetic scalp condition that contributed to hair loss.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know that's really interesting though that you know there's also much disconnect because for so long we've been focusing on the like the actual strand, you know, like the strand of hair.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember when I was growing up, that's all anybody ever marketed.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's all we heard about in the media, you know, was how to get shinier hair, you know, like that kind of thing.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: It was never about like let's really talk about the health and what it what your health means for your scalp, your hair, like everything, right?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: This holistic approach.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to kind of dive into that with you because I think it's important to break it down.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us a little bit about what your take is on truly what scallop health means?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing is there is no such thing as hair health.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's an oxymoron.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hair fiber is literally a fabric.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a living organism.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So there's nothing in about a hair that can be healthy.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think just approaching that conversation of making that distinguish that hair is literally a fabric.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's no different than the clothes, the shoes, the things that we admire, our furniture.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: We need to look at it more from a dry, cleaning fabric, maintaining hair fiber quality.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Health is about the scalp, and health with hair is about that hair follicle.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the hair follicle, which produces the beautiful fabric of our hair, is housed in the scalp.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the first thing to remember is that, you know, the scalp was never studied.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was so understudied for so many years because it's not a vital organ and not necessary from a body and cellular level for our bodies and our flatal organs to thrive.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Over time, I believe what has happened is that as life has changed, as we begin to manipulate and start to play around with products for our hair fiber, you know, think about blow drying, air drying, heat styling, all of these things, the deterioration of the hair fiber is going to actually impact just how our scalps are going to function from a just external.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm going back to that idea of why scalp, right?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: No one, we no one talked about it, no one understood it, because there was really no real value from a marketing standpoint, because the hair is just known it covers the scalp, right?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that that's the protection.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: And really the hair follicle people really, this it was just confusing because we have 100,000 of them.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Each one of them can have their own DNA, RNA, and science really wasn't putting the thought behind scalp health from a genuine just curiosity.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the beauty industry definitely was not thinking about that.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, I think the advancement and how we begin to manipulate the hair fiber with extensions, heat, coloring, just getting so creative with ways to express hair through the hair fiber, through art and performance, it is going to negatively impact the scalp.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the things that we, I believe, were happening and we were seeing.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then it became how do we solve this is another need, another issue to solve.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And once had the, I think what really brought things to the forefront, ironically, was the pandemic.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the pandemic forced all of us this to change our lifestyle and routines with how we managed our hair fibers.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Some of us lax back of not doing as much heat styling.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: We definitely weren't going to salons and getting blow dries and maintaining our color.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And as that was happening, the hair fiber was getting a break.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: The introduction to this pandemic and this global virus that was really changing our DNA and our cellular structure, where people were experiencing extreme hair loss.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was just so obvious and it was such a global phenomenon that the conversation and people were open to beginning to understand and dive deep into the science.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Most people don't like science when it comes to beauty, right?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: We want vacation.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, it is not that simplistic.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm excited because I think we have the bandwidth to go deeper to understand scalp as a structure that holds the organ, that hair follicle.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it allows allows for us to have that deeper conversation.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Science and pharma have jumped in.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much research and so much money that's going into understanding the connection between just overall scalp health and overall body wellness.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, I really uh resonate with everything you said.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's so on point because very, very rarely, even now, do you hear people talking about how the hair is actually dead, you know, like all the styling and whatever we're doing, it's dead.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why you get damage, is because it's not renewing itself, you know.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I mean, it's a really interesting conversation because I think it's become so complicated, overcomplicated over the years, right?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because of the marketing, because of how you know, people need to sell products and they need to, you know, all these things.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So now it feels like, okay, everyone's discussing scalp health, and this is so novel.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: But really, if you look at, you know, civilizations in the in historical, in the historical context, I mean, people have always known that the scalp is where you need to be concentrated, you know, it's just a matter of bringing that to the limelight in a way that, like you, I mean, you said it beautifully that people don't care about the science because they want instant results.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, those are instant results, you know, when you focus on your scalp, in my opinion.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I mean, how many people do you know that suffer from things like dandruff, but then you see their hair and it's like always nice, you know, like they've always been styled and you know, so it's kind of it's kind of crazy, you know, to think of it like that.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I would love to, I'd love to um, you know, talk to you a little bit about this whole thing about the things that impact our actual scalp health or or health overall, and what contributes to, you know, the pathologies that we do commonly see.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: I want to discuss hard water with you for sure.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big topic, but what are some of the things you've noticed as like the big, big things that have really impacted or do impact people on an everyday level when it comes to just you know having a healthier scalp?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the things that that's such a great uh just way to approach it.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it is it's multifactorial.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna focus on the things that we know we can control, right?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many uncontrollable things that impact scalp health.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Genetics, any type of illness or any type of inflammation in the body is going to impact scalp health.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: There is a direct connection between gut and scalp.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: There is a direct connection between medications and scalp.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's a direct connection to anything that goes into your body and scalp.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that does get confusing and overwhelming because people are like, oh, that's everything.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: And however, the science is there to help guide us on those things that we can control.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the hard water is one of those things that we talk about because water is the basis almost every beauty product that we that we use.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so we think about those products that are being made.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when you're formulating any type of product, the water quality in that uh product is controlled.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime there's clinical studies that are done with any product that we purchase, those water qualities are controlled in their environments as they're doing their testing.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we talk about just not to making a connection of what are we doing, putting in ourselves internally, externally, water is the source of all those things, whenever we're talking about any type of beauty and then just any internal wellness.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that goes overlooked and not really talked about because we take those things for granted, even though we take showers on a daily basis and we may see buildup in our in our bathrooms, we see buildup on some of our shower heads when we have these impurities and all of these unwanted substances that pollute our our water stream.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: So when we focus in on those things that we can control, like the water, and we recognize that any product that we purchase has had a controlled water source that has been measured by pH, you know, the alkalinity of the water, all those things are so essential.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then has allows us to go and to recognize what can we control from a consumer point of view that's not DNA related, that's not genetic related, to help us recognize what some of those multifactorial causes will be that aren't necessarily health or internal related.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I do believe the overuse and underuse of products, the improper mixing of certain ingredients and products that disrupt the skin barrier on the scalp, so much of those things are in the products that we use.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we probably have more allergic reactions and don't have the defenses on our microbiome of our scalp and the way that the body is designed to do because our lifestyles are just so different.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And again, with beauty products, the formulation of those things are not necessarily always taken into consideration the scalp microbiome.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're taken into consideration of the performance of the aesthetic of the hair fiber.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that it's very interesting what you know you've brought up here, which is the ingredients of the products themselves and the water inside of those products.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's something that's never discussed.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a very, very unique perspective.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I think that there's a lot of validity there because, you know, we don't ever think about that.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: We don't think about, we I mean, we focus on ingredients, yeah, with products.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people love tearing ingredient lists apart and saying, you know, no parabens, no phthalates, no blah, blah, blah.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just, it's so much more than that.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, the whole industry, the whole whole hair care, hair health industry, whatever it is, you know, it needs to be more transparent, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: About like what do ingredients really do?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: What purpose do they serve?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, when I'm looking at something like a shampoo, I understand that a shampoo is supposed to, you know, allow for the cleansing of that scalp, right?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's the main purpose that sure it serves, is is going to help me rinse, you know, away the impurities that have built up, you know, over time.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the whole idea.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: But then you have about 30 other ingredients in there, which is maybe related to texture or like, you know, whatever it might be.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's a hyper focus on ingredients like skincare.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: I talk a lot about skincare.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And with skincare ingredients, everyone's like, yeah, well, what's this and what's this?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but no one does that with hair.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I just always wonder why.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there was a when I first started this podcast, I think I had an interview, and at that time I was speaking to a dermatologist, and I I brought this up.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, you know, why doesn't any dermatologist educate about, you know, how hair care products are causing acne breakouts and how they're causing scalp breakouts.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's another thing.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: People actually break out on their scalp and no one talks about it, you know, and so it all links back to these products and what we're putting on our hair and what we're exposing it to.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: No, for sure.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the exciting parts with um, you know, collaborating with a brand like Culligan is again going to tracology, it is full body, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Every single aspect of our lives, emotionally, uh, physically, genetically, cell, blood, tissue, have some form of water in it.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, our bodies are majority water.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: So when you get to have a true water conversation and make a connection of how much water is integrated into not only in your physical being, but then externally, of everything we do with cleansing and taking care of nurturing, ritualistic aspects, all have to do with some type of water.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the quality of water, even if you have high ingredients, if you're using and rinsing with water that is contaminated or full of leads or has, you know, chlorine, uh, magnesium, all of these buildups, you're counteracting the effectiveness of your product.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: So your product isn't even getting the actives or getting the benefits because we're then re-kind of contaminating that and recontaminating the surface of your fiber or your scalp, which again, the scalp has a very low, has a very low skin barrier in comparison to our skin on our face.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's highly susceptible to being disrupted with unwanted bacteria, with buildup from water sources.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: So when you can control that through a softener program with all the waters that you use, not only for cooking and cleaning, but also incorporating that into how you brush your teeth, shampoo your hair, you know, condition, rinse, all of those things make a huge difference over time.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as we continue to do more clinicals and more data and research is collected as they are discovering and truly putting the science and the money behind clinicals, the water source is going to be a true contributing factor.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Just as a hair colorist, you know, sometimes people want to highlight or color their hair, but the calcium buildup, the magnesium buildups that is on their hair fiber can create a barrier for getting really pretty hair color.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: The dryness of someone's hair is the same way.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just even the health aspect, it's also the performative aesthetic aspect.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: You see an improvement across the board when there are um systems in play and the overall approach to what your water sources are.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's a really good point.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think, especially for, you know, when we're talking like on in the scope of like international level, like I know a lot of people love to travel.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're always moving around.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's just human nature.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't really think about, especially if you're, you know, you're traveling to another country, like what's coming out of that shower head, you know, like the water quality is so, so crucial.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very central to a lot of different things.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Hair is one of them, but then also with skin, it's the same way.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: I guess, you know, one of my biggest questions for you is like, what are some ways that we can really have like a preventative approach to this?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's really key to be able to like kind of equip ourselves with the tools we need to make sure that we we're not being exposed to things that can be avoided.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: So the first, again, that water source, water softeners, adding true water softener, like a colour-gun treatment system into the higher home is going to make it's gonna take away one of those factors that you don't have to think about because again, scalp and hair, and I'm gonna be so repetitive on this, is it is multi-multifactorial.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: There is not just one thing.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so that can be frustrating.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: And people want to be like, well, this is just how my this is something else to worry about.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, let's remove that and aligning just the sources of things that run into our home that supply both our nutrition and our external cleansing and hygienic, you know, habits.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: If we can make that a non-issue, you're gonna see an immediate difference in the way that your shampoos lather, you're gonna feel an immediate difference on just your overall skin and body, even your food qualities.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Those things are reality.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what they're nine in 10 people that have always seen an improvement of just any of all the water sources when they have come into and used installing water softeners into their home.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when after also instilling water softeners, you seem to see a difference in just the hair fiber performance.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's something that people don't think about.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're always looking for a product to solve that.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it is just removing, it's more removing and getting the right sources of things to make the difference, not so much just a product.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think part of the conversation needs to be going in a direction of before we think about solving a problem, what are some contributing factors, again, that are those controllable um aspects.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that I don't think we think about sometimes is a lot of the processes from like the a lot of the processes that people use or that the states or our cities use and just purifying the water are can are so drying and harsh.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the skin is always in a fight syndrome, you know, it's always trying to just heal itself.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we always think of water as a nourishing aspect.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that psychology of trying to get the purest cleansing water source is going to be beneficial to every aspect of skin, scalp, hair fiber, and hair performance and product performance as well.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it makes sense.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, that makes a lot of sense.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in terms of products, like, is there something we can be using that can help mitigate some of these undesired outcomes from being exposed to hard water?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or I know you mentioned the softener, but like, have you seen any, you know, any specific cases where someone, you know, bought a certain type of product that helped them kind of get rid of the buildup on their their strands or their scalp, like anything that they were able to actually purchase?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing to understand is what type of scalp condition are you managing?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things is when we immediately see flakes, people think it's dandruff.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not all the way true.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: It could just be dehydrated or dry scalp.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's identifying what's dandruff versus dry scalp and dehydrated scalp.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other aspect of that is if you're using a product because you see flakes for dandruff, but it's dry scalp, you're completely disrupting your microbiome because dandruff is an overproduction of yeast and malassesaya and fungus on the scalp, which also is exacerbated by hard water.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when we are looking for identifying the source of what you're trying to resolve, right?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So there are many rinses, their scalp serums, they are scalp pre-treatment scalp exfoliators that I love oil and cream-based ones that help to restore the balance of the microbiome without stripping or disrupting it.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: It also allows for cellular turnover.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: We are so saturated with so many things on the market, but they are great tools when aligned with the right condition.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it is getting with the professional just to identify first what that right condition is.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is an issue that goes overlooked, is integrating the wrong product to treat a scalp or hair condition that's that you don't even have.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: So first is identifying what scalp condition you're treating.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you feel like you just are looking for general scalp improvement, there are also a lot of just, they're like, I like, I like to call them as like vitamin boosters, right?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they'll they'll be promoted as uh hair growth or hair loss.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Think of them as vitamins for the scalp.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you have no extreme condition where you're excessively losing hair, scalp serums are just that added boost.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Again, the scalp is understudied, the scalp gets underlooked.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're able to integrate just some of those scalp serums that are formulated to maintain the scalp microbiome, those are going to be game changers in the preservation of the hair follicle and leading to a higher quality of hair fiber production.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that, you know, we really do need to systematically think about this stuff because at the end of the day, you know, there are as many products as we can like buy, so most of them we don't need.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I love what you said about dandruff.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is such an important, important piece because we do think every type of flaking is dandruff.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don't know anybody that's ever said, like, oh yeah, you know, I have flakes.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: This this is something else.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is not dandruff.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've never seen that, you know.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I think our minds just always go to like, well, this is what we've seen, and so this is what We expect, and you know, that, but it's not the case, everyone's different.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really case in point, right?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because it shows you how undereducated we are as consumers about what are the different things that can happen to our scalp.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what are the different ways this something like dehydration can manifest for different people?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people who have oily scalps, is it gonna look the same for them as it is for somebody who's kind of on the drier side?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's gonna be totally different.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think these are all conversations that need to be had and also the education needs to be there, I think.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I and I I really do put that responsibility on the hair care industry because I think it's important for us to get behind products and brands that are wanting to educate about this stuff.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like they want to pour their resources into educating the public and their consumers about this is what you need to know.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that's that kind of leads me to my next question for you is this idea of like, you know, holistic health is on the rise right now.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I see it all the time, you know, even in my own work, you know, translational medicine, holistic medicine.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when I think about scalp care and everything we've talked about here, it really makes me think about all the different people that can be involved, whether that's dermatologists, whether that's tricologists like yourself, hair um dressers and hairstylists.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: What is your opinion about having this more collaborative approach to education around this topic?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's exactly why I am why I'm a tricologist, because tracologists relies on it's a paramedical science.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's designed to work alongside dermatologists, cosmetologists, endocrinologists, doctors.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: It is when the medical environment is going to open up to have a have respect for the tricologists and the cosmetologists to see there's so much synergy in how we are going to help solve people's concerns because there are scalp conditions that are medical and medically induced, that as a I as a tricologist don't have the wherewithal or the medical advice to guide them.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: But as a tracologist who had comes from a salon um background with tracology theory, I we are the first line of defense.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: You see, you know, we see uh for blow dries, we're at the shampoo bowl for coloring services, the exposure to the scalp.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's the other thing is doctors, dermatologists, hair and scalp is not their primary window.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Even those that go to specialize in it, that has been something they've discovered over the course of their careers, right?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not something that people initially go, it's not something that's just thought about when you think about dermatology.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it is so essential as we are going into this 21st century, how I see it, it is going to allow us to bring the cosmosceutical side, which is the performance of the hair fibers, what immediately gets anyone going to a doctor is it's not that their scalp is looking a certain way for the most part.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's that my hair is being impacted.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's typically my hair is falling out, or my hair is brittle, or my hair is dry.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: So reframing the conversation to that holistic approach with hair is just a byproduct of your overall health.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: That is the bottom line.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, we can't ignore how the relationship between understanding what's happening to you internally and the on on your body, your medical, your lifestyle, and then the external aspect of just the daily maintenance of your hair and your weekly routines of your hair care with your hairstylist, with compliant with your doctor, if you have any other, you know, deeper illnesses, like managing, for God forsake, you know, like cancer or thyroid issues or any type of hormonal concerns, all of those things need to be communicated so that as practitioners, we're able to align the client with the right medical need if needed, along with the right cosmetology approach to maintain and mitigate.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: The goal is to maintain a healthy microbiome, to have healthy hair growth function, which leads to beautiful, gorgeous hair.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's the hair growth function that we have to have the conversation about.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it does require all of us to work together collaboratively.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I love that.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you said that.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm glad that you said that.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there's a lot on the shoulders of dermatologists.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think people expect them to be encyclopedias of everything.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they know a lot.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Don't get me wrong.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're brilliant, brilliant professionals, but at the same time, the it's very difficult to be a per, you know, like a true expert in every field of dermatology.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's almost that's where I think that you're absolutely right.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've I'm a huge advocate for having access to true like experts in the sub-disciplines of dermatology at hand, you know, in dermatological practices.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I really do advocate for that because you know, at the end of the day, I would love to be able to go to a derm and then know that, okay, I'm going in for scalp health.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: A trichologist is gonna see me first.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna sit down with me, talk to me.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I can share my opinions with them.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then the derm can also come in with that more like overview, you know, understanding.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that would be a really cool way to run a practice, to have that available for patients.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I definitely think this would be helpful in, you know, also like when we're going and getting certain treatments, like having some guidance there.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can't tell you how many times I was like, it was like fear-mongering.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: So whenever I used to want to dye my hair, somebody would scare me out of it.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I used to think and like, you know, I would think to myself, I'm like, God, I wish I would just have an expert that could tell me.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because at that time, you know, when I was younger, like that, we didn't have, like I said, scalp health was never discussed, you know, it was never like a topic of conversation.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that lack of knowledge, I don't think it's because people don't know.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly, I mean, you and I are sitting here talking and discussing this topic in depth.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Knowledge is there.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a matter of positioning people in the right places where it is a more like collaborative approach.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's now we're we're opening up to that.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're all we're recognizing that you can't deny science, you can't deny research.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the studies and the clinicals that are coming out and the brands that are financing and putting, you know, putting the money behind, not just to sell a product, but to get true data and to get true awareness to out to the public is what is so exciting.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, think about like what again, going back to just the basics of water wellness.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: We really weren't even discussing water wellness in relation to beauty and products until this, you know, until recently.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And because we just didn't know, granted, yes, we always would test from an internal, the way that we would internally use water, but we never think about those things from an external point of view because it's like, oh, that's not that big of a deal and it doesn't matter.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so great to see that, yes, it really does matter.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: We went to talk about like we were using flakes as the example.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes your flakes could just be buildup as a result of the hardness from chlorine and minerals on the scalp, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there's so many aspects of some of the symptoms that don't always have to be something deeper.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: They can be something as simple as a hard water.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's true as well.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean everything's so such an extreme case.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times, especially with the in the US markets for sure, and the clients that I deal with who still manage a lot of unwanted scalp conditions, sometimes it really is just the source of simple things or the overusing of things or the underusing of things that are creating some of those issues.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't require you to have to go that deep to a dermatologist or a medical doctor.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: It really is something as, again, your source of your product is having giving an allergic reaction, the source of you have you're allergic to chlorine.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, you know, there's so many things that you don't think of, and as a tracologist, being that inspector gadget to access more information and to have the time to access that information, which is another thing that is uh different in as we're exposing this, exploring this 21st century uh world of beauty, is that a lot of it is having uh proper consultation and asking clients the right questions to be able to guide them to what those solutions are.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a one size fits all.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the more we can create continuity and consistency for me as a tracologist, if someone was to say, oh, I have a soft water filter, I have soft water system in my home, it helps me eliminate that as something that may be an issue or maybe caustic to one of their concerns.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: So again, it's always going to go back to the uniqueness of each individual, but also being able to eliminate the obvious.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And water for me is just one of those obvious conversations.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't have to go into deep diving.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Could that be a source of some of the discomfort or the concerns that are being experienced by the consumer?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love everything you're saying.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I kind of want to circle back because you had brought up Culligan earlier, and I want everyone to really take a note about this.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: So can you tell us a little bit about Culligan a little bit more and why this approach is smarter for people to invest in for long-term beauty?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the best things I do love about Culligan is that they do offer a complimentary in-home water testing.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that is something that's okay, if you don't believe me, like check it out and see what happens.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for a brand to be committed to making awareness of hard water from a beauty standpoint, because that is, you know, that is what we look at our skin.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: We look at our hair, we want to feel great, we want to have beautiful hair, we want to have beautiful skin.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's for a brand that is not necessarily a beauty product to be just looking at the source and putting science and and and bringing science into that.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they have so much data.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Not in 10 people had an improvement in hair before they had a water softener, they realized that their the lathering, their shampoos and soaps are lasting longer as a result of water softening.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: See the skin, just the healthiness of the skin, the glow of the skin, and the actual the non-disturbance of the microbiome.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: If I can't say anything more, anytime you put water in the a water on the hair or any type of mechanism on the scalp that has any type of mineral that is and that's is disruptive to the microbiome.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the microbiome has to go into this effect of working hard to protect the hair follicle.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: We want to make that microbiome not have to work.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: We wanted to restore and to retain it.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And water again, we every time we shower, we are using a water source.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the more we can be more mindful of, are we establishing and respecting our microbiomes, or are we doing things for our microbiomes that have to fight and you know protect?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: That is something that I think Culligan's approach is exciting from a beauty standpoint because we want to eliminate as many things as possible that we can topically control that impact the microbiome negatively.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the water softeners are just again a great way to immediately just minimize that as a thought or as a factor that we have to consider in dealing with how our scalps and hair is performing.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that is such an important topic, especially because, you know, when you think about hard water, you're thinking about a lot of minerals, like you mentioned, and that is going to directly impact something like scalp pH.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And scalp pH is extremely central to, you know, not only maintaining your microbiome, but then also maintaining the overall health of the follicles.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's, and you know, scalp pH is very different than the skin pH.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really, really crucial that we understand that, I think, as as consumers and try to approach it as as strictly as we do with our skincare for our facial skin.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it people are so um kind of keyed in right now, right?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: With facial skincare, where they're like, Yeah, you know, I I know it's an acidic pH.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: I need my products to be in this, you know, range.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: But then when you look at the scalp, no one's having that conversation.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is very relevant for that.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you brought up the microbiome, and I, you know, I couldn't help but think directly about pH because I was like, that's that's where I feel like it's the most obvious thing that happens, right?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: When you're constantly being exposed to hard water is this this complete um disassembly of your pH gradient that should be there on the scalp.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I think that it's a very interesting topic, and I really urge everyone listening to kind of take a you know harder look at what you're doing and in your you know health journey with your with your scalp and your hair health because I think it's something that, you know, it really is about long-term beauty.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we want this quick fix with all of our beauty products, but really I think we're turning that corner now as you know, as a culture where we're realizing that health is first, you know, and health takes time and it takes the right kind of investments.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to really position yourself in a place where you're being preventative, you know, rather than reactionary with your health.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, yeah, I think it's very, very crucial.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and that the preventative word, I remember in the late 90s, like no one they thought no one wants to be preventative.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think, and I I believe that not the they who the they the mysterious they of the marketers of as we're making products, we do need tools, we do need and products that are going to help the body, which is a magnificent machine.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the other thing by design, any concern that we experience externally is just a result of the body trying to heal something else internally, right?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we really to value the magic of the cell of the body.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty fascinating.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And now that I think what's happening when you when you discuss the holistic approach is we are now kind of expanding and slowing down as a result to recognize everything is interconnected, whether we want to admit it or not.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so it allows us as consumers to make decisions on okay, what things am I gonna be connected to for my overall holistic well-being?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the hair is just a byproduct, again, of the overall health of the body.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it is gonna require, you know, and the hair growth function is such a laborious process for the body.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: It takes more energy to grow a hair fiber than to regenerate any of our vital organs or to heal any of our vital organs.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, again, with those things said, by stepping back to recognize any condition that you experience on your scalp is a sign that something else is happening in your body.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, what is it trying to protect itself against?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's so, so important.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that's we don't ever, we never think of it like this, right?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's hard.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have this like mindset so embedded into us that it's just like we don't think about our body as this incredibly intelligent machine, you know, that knows exactly what to do to protect itself.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to keep providing it the tools it needs because it does know what to do.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a matter of you need to get out of its way, you know.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: And if something is kind of like hurting it, what you know, you provide it the tools that it needs.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when it comes to like hard water, that's definitely one of those big, you know, red flags that if we can prevent you know ourselves from being exposed to it, we definitely should.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I I love this conversation though, so much.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for educating us.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: This has been so lovely to just chat with you and learn from you.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: So much.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you're so brilliant in all your knowledge.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you giving value to this topic because it is professionals like you that are gonna help us make this collaborative conversation have more validity and be able to empower our consumers so that we can have solutions.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone listening, I will be linking everything you know that's relevant in the show notes.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you check that out and chime in with your opinions because I'd love to hear from you guys.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 37:45
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