Latest / Simply Bitcoin / Dylan LeClair | Endless Printing | Simply Bitcoin IRL

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Dylan LeClair | Endless Printing | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

• 0:08
  Yo welcome to another episode of Simply Bitcoin IRL.
• 0:12
  Today, we have a very special guest which who have known for
• 0:15
  quite a bit and man has he has he reached some height.
• 0:18
  So very happy to have Dylan Leclair on the show before I
• 0:23
  want to bring up before I bring them up, I want to give a quick
• 0:25
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• 0:46
  Anyways, I want to bring Dylan on stage Dylan.
• 0:48
  Very happy to have you on today. How you doing, bro?
• 0:51
  Think I'm doing great man. Excited to catch up.
• 0:55
  We did meet a what was it? August 20 2010 at bit block,
• 0:59
  boom. So it's been a wild ride since
• 1:02
  and happy to get you up. Yeah man.
• 1:04
  That's definitely. Definitely been a a Ride to say
• 1:09
  the least. I'm gonna rip the Band-Aid right
• 1:12
  from the beginning. And this is a question that, you
• 1:15
  know, I was very lucky to have Lynn Jeff Booth, dr.
• 1:18
  Jeff, Ross on the show, the last couple of months and, you know,
• 1:23
  we all kind of go down this like Bitcoin Rabbit, Hole Journey,
• 1:25
  Dylan and you there's there's there's no end to this rabbit
• 1:28
  hole and you just come to these realizations every so often
• 1:30
  you're like holy crap like this is crazy and where I'm at in
• 1:34
  this current rabbit whole experience is this I'm of
• 1:37
  inflation. The idea that governments have
• 1:40
  somehow convinced the population that money has to steal from you
• 1:46
  in order to work. So, the question that I have for
• 1:48
  you Dylan Leclair is is inflation necessary for an
• 1:53
  economy to work. No, I don't think so.
• 1:58
  It's just that, you know, we've witnessed the the greatest
• 2:01
  technological boom and in human existence and human history
• 2:05
  during a mostly Keynesian economic Paradigm because of
• 2:09
  Banker interest, because if human incentives, because of the
• 2:12
  limitations of gold to scale as a medium of exchange, but in,
• 2:18
  in, in theory, and I believe at, you know, in practice at an
• 2:21
  individual level and eventually, you know, somewhat of an
• 2:24
  aggregate level and a Gail. We're going to see that the
• 2:28
  reality where if you are willingly or voluntarily
• 2:31
  operating on a separate system, you can you can you know, opt
• 2:35
  out of the kind of political pillaging that that the monetary
• 2:42
  system kind of forces upon you. So they're still, I mean, we're,
• 2:47
  you know, 50 years into this period where the government
• 2:51
  said. All right, we're not even going
• 2:52
  to pretend that we care about this gold Peg or tether.
• 2:55
  Anymore. And we're just going to be paper
• 2:57
  currencies, and we're about a few years.
• 3:00
  I think about three years into the period, where the inflation
• 3:04
  is unchecked or not unchecked. But it was, it was checked down.
• 3:07
  I was held down and, you know, that was propped up by the
• 3:11
  industrialization of the world and globalization.
• 3:15
  And now we've kind of reached for growth limits.
• 3:16
  Not, I mean, not to sound like what is it malthusian?
• 3:21
  But we're at a point now where the debt and the
• 3:25
  financialization probably reached a peak in purchasing
• 3:28
  power terms and 2021 and you know, their war and a bunch of
• 3:33
  these other things, kind of sparked, a somewhat of a
• 3:36
  deflation into those things of that paper wealth, and into the
• 3:40
  Commodities and hard money sector.
• 3:41
  But I think the story of the next decade, the story of our
• 3:44
  lifetimes is going to be the Perpetual debasement of your
• 3:47
  purchasing power. In any currency terms with a
• 3:51
  dollar probably being the best until potentially trust is lost
• 3:55
  in the dollar, so a long answer there, but I don't think it's
• 3:59
  ultimately necessary. It's just that most everybody in
• 4:01
  the planet hasn't like ever operated under a framework word.
• 4:06
  It wasn't you know the Baseline. Yeah.
• 4:08
  So you said something really interesting there and I want to
• 4:11
  focus on because usually I'll put it this way Dylan.
• 4:18
  We're definitely in the somewhat younger generation of big
• 4:22
  Corners, right? You you're a bit younger than me
• 4:26
  and I'm pretty young in the grand scheme of things as well.
• 4:30
  And the reason I'm bringing that up is because the what the
• 4:34
  statement that you just made holds a lot more weight for us
• 4:38
  because we don't have an alternative like we like Bitcoin
• 4:41
  for us is the way out if you're a little bit older.
• 4:45
  Derp. I don't want to say, it doesn't
• 4:48
  matter but, you know. I guess you could make the
• 4:53
  argument. It doesn't affect you as much.
• 4:56
  So, I guess my question to you Dylan is where does Bitcoin
• 5:00
  play? Like what's Bitcoins role for
• 5:03
  Our Generation? I'm specifically, I'm on the
• 5:05
  younger side of the millennial. Generation your Jen's e.
• 5:08
  So where does Bitcoin play into this?
• 5:12
  Yeah. I mean it plays a big role and I
• 5:14
  think you know in terms of wealth right?
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  Like gen Z is irrelevant Millennials are you know as as
• 5:21
  irrelevant as any generation in history in terms of like wealth,
• 5:24
  purchasing power. Now that transfer is happening,
• 5:26
  you know, mostly through inheritance from Boomers or
• 5:30
  going to be from Boomers to millennial generation and some
• 5:33
  to Gen X as well. But, you know, I think it's,
• 5:36
  it's more of an ability to not be stuck in the old world.
• 5:41
  World. Right.
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  Like I approach Bitcoin at the same time as I'm approaching
• 5:44
  Keynesian economic theory and like it was just obvious from
• 5:48
  the fundamental level like what was not more fair or Equitable
• 5:52
  but what I would prefer, right? Like what I wanted to do with my
• 5:54
  personal power, that was very obvious choice, over the long
• 5:58
  term. But if you've been grounded in
• 6:01
  some framework or line of thinking, whether it's at a you
• 6:04
  know, a business level or social level or even a political level
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  right like there it's just ingrained into people's heads
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  and And anything that operates outside of that box, doesn't
• 6:14
  make sense is a logical is a scam as a fraud, whatever the
• 6:18
  things they say about Bitcoin. But here it is, it's, you know,
• 6:21
  so I wasn't, I'd blocks are coming in patch rates, at
• 6:24
  all-time highs, right? Like the market saying
• 6:27
  something, Absolutely. Do you do you worry a bit?
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  Do you worry about? And the reason I'm saying this
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  is what I've tended. What I've tended to notice the
• 6:40
  pattern that have tended to notice and I kind of want to
• 6:42
  loop back into this concept of of Our Generations, and the
• 6:46
  reason I'm bringing it up is you know, you mentioned it earlier.
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  Dylan, the few under the age of 35, you don't own anything so
• 6:54
  does it. Worry you a bit that Would have
• 6:58
  tended to notice, is that specifically the younger?
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  You are the complete lack of interest in something like
• 7:05
  Bitcoin. People, people seem to seek to
• 7:08
  continue to seek political Solutions.
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  And what I've also tended to notice also is that they blame
• 7:15
  capitalism for a lot of the woes of central planning, really a
• 7:19
  Fiat money. So what are your thoughts on
• 7:21
  that? I think that's that's that at
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  that's dead on set. That accurate there is a certain
• 7:27
  political nihilism to my generation.
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  I've seen it with yours as well, you know, kind of a
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  left-leaning, or at the very least a polarization.
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  But at the, you know, at my age gen Z like there is a very much,
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  you know, ideological Cult of social pressure to like conform
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  to this certain, you know, fundamental reality.
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  That just somehow came out of nowhere right?
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  Which is, you know, two plus two equals equals 5 and then and you
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  know we can blame all these things on capitalism capitalism
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  is is the greatest wealth and wealth producer.
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  But not wealth producer like or wealth creation, but standard of
• 8:10
  living increase, like because of the capitalist Innovations and
• 8:14
  Ingenuity. So, you know, that's it's
• 8:17
  illogical, right? But I think ultimately, you
• 8:20
  know, economic reality and Darwin is ISM, as harsh as that
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  sounds, is always going to impose itself.
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  And, you know, things like these political ideas, work in theory
• 8:29
  and not in practice, right? America is open Capital markets
• 8:33
  where the global Reserve currency and when would that
• 8:36
  reality without being able to close your capital account, like
• 8:40
  China would money is going to flow to where its treated best.
• 8:45
  So any of these mmt Fantasyland things CBO budget just came out
• 8:49
  today. Said, you know, 2032 comes in To
• 8:52
  gdps, right? Where it's at right?
• 8:55
  You know, we're just we're just going to sew to fund all this
• 8:57
  entitlements to fund, every all of this, the spending over the
• 9:00
  next decade, the Green Revolution, whatever it, maybe
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  right, maybe cancel this, some student debt Etc.
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  It's all going to be, you know, basically monetized via the fed
• 9:11
  or another. Another government entities
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  balance sheet. There are no structural buyers
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  of the debt and so your purchase power roads away with as fast as
• 9:21
  a spec, it does the money. Any printer?
• 9:23
  So I think that's, that's the bull case for Bitcoin is just
• 9:25
  like it's just math. And when you say that, it sounds
• 9:28
  like super bold to someone that hasn't done the homework or kind
• 9:32
  of work through the game theory. But like, you know what,
• 9:34
  salesman reality of this of this debt situation that were in an
• 9:39
  experiment of right we're 50 years in.
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  So where does the where do we go?
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  And I think my answer is obviously it's debasement.
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  So where do you want to put your money?
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  Yeah they have no option but to print a I agree with you but
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  dealing you said something very interesting right which is
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  political ideas, you know, these political ideas, they work and
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  they work in theory but in reality it's a different story
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  but I think history has shown that.
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  You can surely impose those political ideas on a populist or
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  a significant amount of time and of course reality snaps back but
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  it's crazy how long they can hold on, right?
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  And specifically He let you know the exempt.
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  Just just to mention one that to dive deep into that but Soviet
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  Union, right? Yes.
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  How many it's a good thing is like 70, 80 years, right?
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  So I guess the reason that I'm saying this, I'm bringing this
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  up is the Our Generation, the Millennials and gen Z
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  generation. I think loves entitlements man.
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  You know, they love that idea of entitlements.
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  I think the idea of entitlements is only possible with Fiat money
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  with that money printer with Spending.
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  Don't you think that a lot of hostility is going to be is
• 10:58
  going to be at least pointed at the thing that a lot of people
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  are going to perceive as responsible for those
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  entitlements being taken away from them and I guess I would
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  reference really the predictions in the book, The sovereign
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  individual where he said just that right?
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  A lot of people living in this old system in this giant you
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  know, welfare Giant Straw city of a welfare state and all of a
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  sudden, those entitlements that you fundamentally believe that
• 11:27
  you're, you know, that you that you deserve are just ripped out
• 11:31
  of your own hands. And I guess bitcoiners are in
• 11:33
  the crosshairs for that. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
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  I mean that's that's, you know, not the cause but that's the
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  that's the solution but the the political, you know, opposition
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  to it and the Really the psyops right from a from a narrative
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  perspective, propaganda will be very intense.
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  I think that maybe this is a little nihilistic, a little sad,
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  but it's more. So like there's there's kind of
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  a return in this shift, right in this like big fourth turning
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  kind of thesis. We're like technological
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  advancement has brought us this far.
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  And now, you know, the monetary system has brought us this far
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  and there's kind of this this Line in the Sand, but it's not
• 12:14
  Line in the Sand. It's not like one Event Horizon.
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  But really if you think, I've like what the 2020s are, I've
• 12:20
  already brought us and what where they're going, right?
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  What are the the world economic forum's, great plans for us and
• 12:26
  to create a human race of basically cattle and this, you
• 12:30
  know, technological panopticon dystopia and it'll be more of an
• 12:34
  individual level about Whether you want to opt out of that
• 12:38
  system of global control and compliance and and, you know,
• 12:43
  one of the keys there on that checklist is Sovereign monetary
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  or Sovereign economic autonomy. So, so if you don't have that,
• 12:51
  then you have nothing, you can't.
• 12:53
  You know, if you could if you can go anywhere in the world
• 12:55
  with your money and your head in theory, that's pretty powerful
• 12:59
  in a world that's you know, increasingly polarizing and
• 13:02
  bifurcating and you know who knows where you are.
• 13:05
  Your political situation is there and so it's all relative
• 13:10
  game and I think having that flexibility and freedom for
• 13:13
  someone that's that's, you know, young for someone in their 20s,
• 13:16
  never mind that regardless of your age, you know, if you if
• 13:20
  you want that economic sovereignty in the digital age
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  is probably not really many other places to look for that
• 13:27
  list of economic empowerment. Nothing else is as important as
• 13:31
  money. Ultimately, as a tool, in my
• 13:33
  opinion, I guess food. Sheltered the basics.
• 13:36
  But yeah. So so Bitcoin is right in the
• 13:40
  middle of this whole thing but it'll be at an individual level.
• 13:43
  Maybe a you could say of corporate level, some Will
• 13:45
  Survive, but not everyone is going to, you know,
• 13:47
  quote-unquote, make it. And that's somewhat of like a
• 13:50
  harsh reality of this of this transition.
• 13:54
  The goal is to get as many people, you know, if we're right
• 13:57
  here like everybody, we want Bitcoin in everyone's hands but
• 14:01
  it's, you know, up to the individual to do that, that's
• 14:05
  not on. On us.
• 14:06
  Why don't you? Yeah, I wish I could so Dylan,
• 14:13
  the last couple of really it's been the last couple of months
• 14:16
  if you've been paying attention but the how do I put this the
• 14:23
  just I guess I'll put it bluntly the hostility by v b
• 14:28
  Administration towards the industry.
• 14:30
  I think they were waiting for an excuse They're waiting for an
• 14:36
  excuse to, you know, and with that excuse they denied Caitlin
• 14:41
  loans Bank custodia bank from getting a Federal Banking
• 14:44
  Charter and then right as of right now there, you know, their
• 14:48
  next Target is stable coins, right?
• 14:50
  We know that they made an example of Kraken 30 million
• 14:53
  dollar fine with the staking, maybe it's because we're slaves
• 14:59
  to the new Cycles at simply Bitcoin.
• 15:00
  We have to cover the news every single day, but it just
• 15:04
  definitely does look Look targeted sophisticated, and
• 15:08
  there's this very excellent piece that laid it out by Nick.
• 15:11
  Carter called operation chokepoint 2.0 and he really
• 15:14
  laid it out. He really made the case with all
• 15:17
  the examples, not to mention the Senator Elizabeth Warren and
• 15:20
  Senator Marshall, Bill that would require Bitcoin developers
• 15:24
  in the United States are registered with the federal
• 15:25
  government to develop for like, absolutely Bonkers that you can
• 15:28
  see this in America. But clearly there is a, there's
• 15:30
  an agenda there. So, what are your thoughts on
• 15:33
  all of this? And I think it could tie in with
• 15:35
  What you were saying not too long ago.
• 15:38
  Yeah. I mean I think definitely that
• 15:41
  took Point comparison is valid. I think also we should we should
• 15:45
  be realistic and recognize and I simply Bitcoin has definitely
• 15:50
  been one of the media arms covering this that has
• 15:54
  recognized it. There's a whole boatload of
• 15:56
  Fraud and, you know, all sorts of shenanigans with crypto
• 16:00
  companies and, you know, the ponzi's and everything else that
• 16:04
  touched hands with the US. As banking system that touched
• 16:07
  hands with Silver Gate signature FTX, you know, these stable.
• 16:11
  But there's always a hot pile of money, you know, of course, you
• 16:13
  know, billions of dollars of Leverage, you know, you know,
• 16:16
  between counterparties and everything else.
• 16:18
  And there was a lot of fraud, kind of in that whole basket or
• 16:22
  bubble, right? So so the response is one that I
• 16:25
  would fully expect from US banking system and that's to
• 16:29
  ramp it up to the point where, you know, only the Sterling
• 16:32
  companies are or you know, like just for Fred the finance be USD
• 16:37
  coin from paxos, right? Finance was doing sensor
• 16:41
  Shenanigans with a peg of that of that etherium based a coin
• 16:45
  and creating their own by net, smart chain base table coin, but
• 16:48
  they didn't back it up and we'll all the time.
• 16:50
  And they were, you know, counting at the same on their
• 16:52
  platform. So the New York Financial
• 16:54
  Service, I forget the exact name, NY DFS came in, said back
• 16:59
  to us know, you're done. You know, you can only redeem.
• 17:01
  Now you can order to create stable coins and you guys got a
• 17:04
  year to basically get out of that.
• 17:05
  That. So yeah, it's coming.
• 17:07
  I think it's not the end of the world.
• 17:09
  It's, you know, certainly u.s. Capital markets, the most
• 17:12
  important but Bitcoin just going to Route Around, it's going to
• 17:15
  do its thing. It's a global phenomenon.
• 17:17
  And and, you know, I think it'll make another all-time high at
• 17:21
  some point and I really don't care what that timeline is to
• 17:25
  get there. I don't say, expect some shop
• 17:27
  for a little bit while we kind of chop through this macro
• 17:31
  situation. But, you know, that the US has
• 17:34
  an open Capital markets. All right, so so they can't stop
• 17:38
  all capital from coming. This thing, it's essentially
• 17:41
  just a Global Currency pair, so there will be liquidy and that
• 17:44
  will probably be eventually they're going to attempt to
• 17:47
  consolidate that between the incumbents right bny Mellon and
• 17:50
  JP Morgan and her maybe not JPMorgan, but the incumbent is
• 17:54
  right? And then the legacy is just in
• 17:56
  the Legacy system serving as those rails and not as you know
• 18:00
  and not for coinbase or whoever else is is really doing a lot of
• 18:04
  volume with the Legacy system. Mmm, I think that's what they're
• 18:06
  really trying to get to get a hold of.
• 18:10
  So interesting. So you don't you don't think
• 18:13
  it's necessarily an attempt to slow down the adoption of
• 18:17
  Bitcoin. You think it's a legitimate
• 18:19
  government response at the Fallout from the ft x debacle.
• 18:24
  Yeah I mean and not to give the government any said legitimacy I
• 18:28
  think there's quite a lot of reasons to point that they are
• 18:30
  completely illiterate the illegitimate but aside Point
• 18:34
  like you know that's a system where operating under and you
• 18:37
  know you can't just go create Around back, right?
• 18:40
  Like that's there is a there is a cartel of sorts, a regulatory
• 18:45
  cartel globally with the u.s. kind of operating as that had
• 18:49
  point. So, you know, they're going to
• 18:52
  try to starve the Beast a bit but you can't write Bitcoins a
• 18:55
  10, you know, 10 million 100 million headed Hydra this point.
• 19:01
  And so you know the cats out of the bag, it's just a matter of
• 19:04
  you know, that it's been in the end, they fight you stage for a
• 19:06
  little bit. I just you know Bitcoin just
• 19:08
  keeps going back, stronger and stronger.
• 19:10
  Sure. And they're like, oh shit, you
• 19:11
  know, but they can't kill it. So I'm really not all that
• 19:14
  worried, to be honest, maybe that's a little bit naive
• 19:19
  though. No.
• 19:22
  You know, up the joke about this all the time we say, we're just
• 19:26
  going to have to move till Salvador.
• 19:28
  Would you be willing to move to El Salvador Dylan Leclair if
• 19:31
  things really did get hairy, you know, I would probably be
• 19:36
  willing to move anywhere depending on how you define bad
• 19:40
  but gonna probably stay in the West for a little bit.
• 19:44
  And then maybe, you know, who knows?
• 19:45
  I'll settle down a few different places which El Salvador, maybe
• 19:48
  he's one. I have this infatuation somewhat
• 19:51
  with the kind. Playing out the sovereign
• 19:54
  individual digital Nomad thesis for a little bit over the coming
• 19:58
  years. I mean that's the plan for my
• 19:59
  next year essentially and so we'll see where it goes but now
• 20:03
  Salvador is definitely, you know, it's looking good.
• 20:08
  Yeah, I tried it for a bit, it's fun, but it does kind of feel
• 20:13
  like your home is a bag. So, I guess that's cool.
• 20:18
  Definitely cheap though. That's the good.
• 20:20
  That's, I guess the, the pros for it.
• 20:24
  Anyways, Dylan, don't you think that this, you know, potentially
• 20:30
  is forcing Bitcoin businesses overseas?
• 20:33
  And I think that was one of the main talking points that I've
• 20:37
  heard against this, this onslaught of Regulation.
• 20:44
  Yeah, I mean, potentially right. Like it's certainly making a lot
• 20:48
  more challenging for the even though the legitimate actors
• 20:51
  here and it slows things down. I don't think it's an argument
• 20:55
  there but like, you know, there's a, there's a reason for
• 20:59
  the the scrutiny, right? It's like the largest players in
• 21:02
  this industry were all, you know, in some ways.
• 21:05
  Fraudulent lied. There was a huge daisy chain and
• 21:09
  now, you know, like, like even not to not to go down this
• 21:12
  Rabbit Hole to this time but like, there's legitimately
• 21:14
  massive question marks regarding the world's biggest Bitcoin
• 21:17
  could go play right now which is financed, right?
• 21:19
  And they're like basically not allowed to operate in the US the
• 21:21
  kind of Shadow operating in the US was by Nance us.
• 21:24
  But like they and essentially right there like seven, fifty
• 21:28
  sixty percent of all crypto trading volume right now and
• 21:31
  kind of liquidity, right? So and that's just a massive.
• 21:34
  It's a massive black box so I'm not like throwing shade at
• 21:37
  Finance. It's just the reality that like,
• 21:39
  it's way more nascent than I would have thought.
• 21:43
  Even in 2023, which is super great because that means it's
• 21:47
  cheap, and it still has massive potential and it's going, it's
• 21:50
  barely just a teenager, but we, Recognize like it's barely just
• 21:54
  a teenager. A lot of people don't really
• 21:57
  understand this thing at all and you know, someone operates fraud
• 22:03
  via, you know, the Bitcoin or whatever crypto, right.
• 22:06
  And it's like someone in nineteen eighty or ninety
• 22:08
  saying, like, you know, the internet enables fraud and
• 22:10
  scamming it's like, yeah, of course it does.
• 22:13
  It's just, you know, it's not the internet's fault, it's not
• 22:16
  the protocol assault. So that's just an education
• 22:19
  process. And then, you know, we're both
• 22:21
  blessed with plenty of time to just kind of watch the Cards
• 22:24
  cards fall. Absolutely let's see, let's see
• 22:29
  where this rollercoaster ride takes us.
• 22:30
  So you mentioned by Nance. Now I think Finance is very
• 22:34
  interesting because don't they have the BNB token, aren't they
• 22:39
  just issuing their own money? Like isn't that very similar to
• 22:42
  whatever the exit and then not to mention we don't know.
• 22:45
  Like they've been you know it's been very hard Finance hasn't
• 22:49
  showed their book their books and say last raise the money.
• 22:51
  I think the last time there is money was like in Right.
• 22:54
  So how would we know? We don't know and they do have a
• 22:58
  token, they're not you know, in theory, they could change the
• 23:01
  date. I mean they are operating, the
• 23:02
  validators are like they could change the monetary policy in
• 23:05
  theory and practice, they have, you know, 60 to 70, estimated
• 23:08
  percent of all tokens of this, you know, fifty billion dollar
• 23:11
  asset that they, you know, that definitely had an incentive to
• 23:15
  pump. And it's, you know, kind of
• 23:16
  wildly, uh, performed everything even Bitcoin to the downside,
• 23:20
  which doesn't never happens. So there's questions and That
• 23:23
  you know, really brought them up and people have said it's fight
• 23:26
  or I'm delusional or whatever. And I'm just saying like hey
• 23:28
  guys like you know, this thing's had a fifty billion dollar
• 23:31
  market cap with only it only trades in one place and their
• 23:35
  assets and liabilities are a black book because they don't
• 23:39
  have to show you them and they're saying, hey here's a
• 23:41
  proof of assets report and I'm like assets, don't matter at
• 23:45
  all. And it's really not enough to
• 23:48
  say like I trust your word for it.
• 23:49
  So I'm not saying like sees you as an agenda is bad or whatever.
• 23:52
  I'm just saying like There's obviously periods where they're
• 23:55
  proof of Reserve wallets have changed switch them up.
• 23:58
  They've they've commingled corporate funds and Recovery
• 24:01
  funds and customer funds and admitted to it.
• 24:05
  You know, they said here's a billion and be USD for Industry
• 24:07
  Recovery and we're like hey you sent that from the customers
• 24:10
  wallets like a day ago and their response essentially a blog post
• 24:14
  was like oh no like our security our internal exchange security
• 24:18
  so good that we use corporate funds for in the same wallet.
• 24:21
  That was the response. Like the pr They did tweeted
• 24:24
  this out and I raise that up. If you were like Fudd, fun, fun
• 24:27
  fun. And I'm like, guys, like, okay,
• 24:30
  it's fun. The like, I don't have an
• 24:33
  agenda, like, I'm just like saying, like it's just, you
• 24:36
  know, take control of what you own is something, bad happens.
• 24:40
  It's all entire than yourself, like, you signed up for this and
• 24:45
  you were trusting. Someone that yeah, doesn't.
• 24:47
  Whoo. How you going to enforce
• 24:48
  responsibility? If something bad happens?
• 24:51
  Not your keys and your coins. Apply.
• 24:53
  Stephen, you know, Nico like you're my friend, I trust you,
• 24:56
  man. But like you're like, hey I'll
• 24:58
  hold this pick one for you. Don't worry, I got it.
• 25:01
  I'm like, yeah, maybe I trust you but eventually if I don't
• 25:04
  and you scan me then, you know, I got scammed like, I his my
• 25:08
  fault, and I think just there's been a lot of hard lessons but
• 25:12
  like, you know, not unfortunately, like I just hope
• 25:16
  there's not more hard lessons to come.
• 25:18
  And I think at some point there will be and not saying it's
• 25:20
  with, you know, the biggest elephant in the room or not, I'm
• 25:23
  just Saying like that we've seen this stuff, repeat through the
• 25:25
  history of Bitcoin, there's this ongoing process and I you know,
• 25:29
  unfortunately we regretfully say that the next Bull Run.
• 25:32
  We will see, you know, 10x to Shenanigans.
• 25:35
  We see, we saw this past bull market in terms of people losing
• 25:38
  funds scams, you know, phishing scams kyc all this, all this
• 25:43
  crazy stuff. So maybe that's pessimistic as
• 25:47
  well. But I think you were just going
• 25:49
  to we're going to go through another cycle.
• 25:50
  It's going to be 10x crazier. It's going to be 10x.
• 25:53
  The the amount of Fraud and that's you know a blessing in
• 25:58
  the curse of this decentralized, you know, internet money
• 26:03
  monetizing from scratch. It's just it's very darwinistic.
• 26:08
  Yeah, did I completely agree? I think you know the was the
• 26:12
  first one Mount gox. Right?
• 26:14
  And then it just progressively. Just got bigger and bigger last
• 26:18
  blow up, you literally have Tom Brady and mr.
• 26:21
  Wonderful involved and they were spokesman for you know the the
• 26:26
  the FTX organization. So yeah and I agree maybe
• 26:30
  perhaps. Next time a nation state will be
• 26:32
  involved, you know it. I know it Ponzi like It sounds
• 26:38
  ludicrous. But if I told you what happened,
• 26:41
  this Earth, this past year that with FTX stuff, if I told you
• 26:44
  about the penthouse and the Bahamas and all that stuff and I
• 26:47
  told you about that five years ago, you would have laughed me
• 26:49
  out of the room. So yeah it's it's definitely
• 26:53
  definitely Wild West for sure. So I want to focus on something
• 26:56
  that you were mentioning earlier and I think that's a very
• 26:58
  interesting topic and that's something that I've heard from
• 27:01
  people and I would say it's more so of a disillusionment and when
• 27:06
  I'm talking about Dylan is The fact that bind the B&B token has
• 27:11
  outperformed Bitcoin like even even aetherium that wasn't the
• 27:15
  case etherium still hasn't made an all-time high in Bitcoin, but
• 27:18
  if you're looking at the by Nance token, it has performed.
• 27:22
  It has outperformed Bitcoin which is extremely rare.
• 27:24
  Like you said, is that due to manipulation and of course,
• 27:29
  we're all speculating here. There's absolutely no way to do
• 27:31
  know this because it's all, you know, it's all the behind the
• 27:35
  behind the scenes, but what's your take on that?
• 27:37
  What's going on there and your opinion.
• 27:40
  My take on it is that there was an obvious incentive in 2021
• 27:46
  with the Bitcoin. Broadly crypto, you know, pumped
• 27:49
  where we saw three trillion dollars of my have imaginary
• 27:52
  wealth creation of probably just you know in aggregate.
• 27:55
  Let's say 100 maybe 200 billion dollars of capital inflow.
• 28:00
  That's 200 billion could be really generous maybe 100
• 28:03
  billion total, maybe less than that.
• 28:05
  Could be 50 billion and raw us cash coming in.
• 28:08
  To this crypto ecosystem, where it, you know, got levered up,
• 28:12
  you know, with the D5 stuff I got levered up as phosphate
• 28:15
  funds tried, you know, cash-and-carry GPT, see starting
• 28:19
  at you know 9 K 10 K buying up 100,000 150,000 Bitcoin.
• 28:23
  Sailor punting his corporate not punting but like you know just
• 28:27
  all in this corporate treasury buys another 100,000 Bitcoin
• 28:31
  relatively Supply, an elastic, its source, Bitcoin goes to the
• 28:34
  moon and and you know the The theory Vault season, right?
• 28:39
  Is this pair, whatever it this trading pair of you know,
• 28:43
  altcoin BDC and whatever this altcoin is worth and there's
• 28:47
  really a lot of these things are injured intrinsically doesn't
• 28:49
  matter if they have value like the the mean coins are literally
• 28:52
  just a nihilistic Financial form of gambling that's you know Less
• 28:56
  Than Zero Sum because the exchange for takes their fees.
• 29:00
  But given this flying elasticity of these things and the
• 29:03
  volatility you know there's there's it's so illiquid right
• 29:06
  the bit asks are crazy. Wide.
• 29:08
  So little bit of money on either side just moons the thing,
• 29:11
  right? And so all coin out performance
• 29:13
  is a big narrative but in particular if you look like the
• 29:15
  biggest, the best performers during this kind of height
• 29:18
  phase, it was like exchange tokens, right?
• 29:20
  You saw Celsius, go Bonkers, you saw ft x KO F TT, go bonkers the
• 29:25
  same time you know, by Nance, you know, trailed ftts a
• 29:29
  performance by a couple weeks I might have that flipped it might
• 29:32
  be financed went first and FTX started going insane but they
• 29:35
  all perform Bitcoin like crazy and The other smaller market
• 29:38
  caps for sure. We less capital inflow but but
• 29:41
  people only look at the percent returns and you know, they'll
• 29:46
  all of those things crash the correlation and and you know
• 29:50
  illiquidity traded both ways you know as volatile asset to the
• 29:54
  upside more volatile than big ones, the downside as well.
• 29:57
  And B&B was like kind of this weird Financial anomaly where as
• 30:00
  you know 200 300 Vol asset in a bull market and a bear Market
• 30:06
  where Bitcoin is you know no, after its kind of all settled
• 30:09
  down Bitcoins a it's called it a 80 Vol asset.
• 30:16
  B & B is just around the same. It's a little higher but not
• 30:19
  double, not triple, like it wasn't a bull market in like
• 30:21
  those things. Make me scratch my head.
• 30:23
  I can't I can't, you know, know anything there.
• 30:26
  But ask yourself what the incentive is to pump your thing
• 30:30
  that you won't 70 billion of. And the thing is, the thing that
• 30:32
  makes me fishy. It's like, you know, a smart
• 30:35
  Capital allocator, if they created Created money, created
• 30:38
  an asset from nothing and it within five years, For years,
• 30:43
  the thing was worth. Total market cap, 100 billion
• 30:46
  and you had 50 of that and, you know, you can unload that 50%
• 30:51
  into the market but it would in theory makes sense to like take
• 30:55
  some chips off the table. If you were an unbiased capital
• 30:57
  allocator and the fact that they're like, oh we've never
• 31:00
  sold any and we don't leverage against it's like, okay then
• 31:03
  what is the point of holding it? There is no point.
• 31:06
  So so if you're never going to sell it because you don't want
• 31:08
  it, that to impact the market of the down side where there's no
• 31:10
  real natural buyers, right? You're the primary Maker.
• 31:13
  You're the primary liquidity. That's your all the liquidity
• 31:16
  financed platform. You're not, you can't really
• 31:19
  sell any. So the thing that I would worry
• 31:22
  about in the reason FTX went down was because they were
• 31:26
  borrowed a collateralized against the solvency of the, the
• 31:29
  aggregate system, their collateralized against Iran, the
• 31:31
  fiend token. So I haven't I couldn't prove
• 31:33
  the finance. It's doing that.
• 31:35
  Do I think that's it's you know, majority chance they are.
• 31:38
  I don't, I mean I hope not. But certainly the a performance
• 31:42
  is Is, is noteworthy and not really know where the integrate
• 31:45
  way. It's not worthy and like, a very
• 31:46
  suspect way, my opinion. So I'm going to be wrong there.
• 31:48
  Of course, I'm not accusing them of anything, but I would
• 31:52
  encourage people to be more skeptical of the world in
• 31:55
  general. These are not outrageous things
• 31:57
  to ask your post forward. It's not fun.
• 32:00
  It's like basic due diligence. So, yeah, that's my thoughts on
• 32:04
  that. Interesting.
• 32:07
  Yeah, and I agree that it is kind of.
• 32:09
  It is kind of like this, this weird, Only right?
• 32:13
  It is strange and then right? What's that?
• 32:15
  It is a very famous. Saying, rise.
• 32:16
  If you don't understand, like, just look at the incentives.
• 32:20
  And yeah, totally incentivize to to manipulate it to his benefit
• 32:25
  and I think you pointed out the lack of liquidity is interesting
• 32:29
  if you want to sell a lot, anyways, for get carried away.
• 32:34
  So doing I think a lot of people last bull market or let down.
• 32:40
  I think a lot of people were anticipating 100K Bitcoin,
• 32:44
  minimum I come from the school of thought, that it's
• 32:50
  interesting how the CCP band Bitcoin mining, right at the
• 32:53
  perfect time in the Bitcoin bull market.
• 32:56
  And that, you know, shortly after we had a massive price
• 32:58
  crash songs with the hash rate. So we're you one of those people
• 33:04
  and you know I could say I was definitely on a personal level.
• 33:07
  Were you one of those people that were expecting 100K Bitcoin
• 33:11
  the lat? Bull market and Y, then we hit
• 33:15
  that it, we're people overly bullish, there's this Theory,
• 33:18
  also diminishing returns just kind of, makes sense, right?
• 33:21
  It's a lot harder for Bitcoin to get from 50k to 100K than it was
• 33:25
  for it to get from a dollar to two dollars, right?
• 33:27
  So what are your thoughts on this?
• 33:29
  And a lot of people see, it Dylan is the opportunity are
• 33:33
  people late to bitcoin. No, I don't.
• 33:37
  People are late and answer question.
• 33:39
  I was at the time I was Pretty pretty bullish on the price
• 33:44
  action, kind of an in the spring.
• 33:47
  Obviously I was you know at over 100 percent of my net worth and
• 33:51
  Bitcoin by the summer of 2020. Kind of acquiring really any
• 33:54
  leverage. I could irresponsible but as a
• 33:57
  19-0 as a 19 year old kid like transparently I was I was doing
• 34:00
  that pumped like crazy retrace, with the China stuff still, you
• 34:05
  know, fall asleep. Long got got some call option
• 34:09
  exposure and a bunch of other mining plays in the summer. 21
• 34:14
  and read those rather is pretty high and then fully round trip.
• 34:18
  Like I have a hot or stack, I don't touch it.
• 34:20
  I'm constantly adding to it IDC. A given my job as a market
• 34:24
  analyst and someone looking at data and markets in hours a day
• 34:27
  like I also have something like a portfolio book where our
• 34:32
  actively manage it a little bit more.
• 34:34
  So you know, I buy some Equity sometimes I short, equities,
• 34:36
  bonds options, all these other things, and I don't like to
• 34:40
  given the size of my like, audience now that I kind of Just
• 34:42
  stumbled into. I don't like to like transparent
• 34:44
  not transparently to my book, but I don't like the, you know,
• 34:48
  post my book all the time. I might look meaning like you
• 34:50
  know, whether I'm buying this or selling that, oh, occasionally,
• 34:53
  but I won't have to disclose it because I don't think, I don't
• 34:56
  want to influence my followers to do this for that.
• 34:58
  Other than, like, say for yourself a long term, I think
• 35:01
  it's a pretty reasonable position to kind of put forward,
• 35:05
  but no, I didn't, I didn't sell the top.
• 35:07
  I wish I wish I did. You know, in hindsight is always
• 35:09
  20/20 but, you know, since I think, First quarter of 2021 by
• 35:14
  2022. Rather I'm sorry when it's
• 35:16
  pretty clear that the kind of the credit system, the economic
• 35:20
  tide was turning a little bit. You know that the didn't make
• 35:23
  the foot perfect Edna 2021 of November.
• 35:26
  But once it was clear that okay the bond markets has to sell off
• 35:30
  here because inflation's you know six seven hundred basis
• 35:34
  points over you know all durations of the yields you know
• 35:39
  we're in for some pain and kind of liquidity suck.
• 35:42
  And I think we're still in that I like I still think a recession
• 35:45
  is coming. The economy is surprisingly
• 35:47
  resilient and nominal terms, but I do think we're headed for
• 35:50
  somewhat of a kind of the debt that unwind.
• 35:53
  But right we just saw massive wealth destruction in 2022 from
• 35:57
  all time bubble, everything bubble highs and you just look
• 36:00
  at like what the wealth effect does to a real economy on a lag.
• 36:04
  And there's, you know, there's certainly some contraction
• 36:07
  coming in my opinion and so, so Bitcoins going to do extremely
• 36:10
  well over the long term but like the Only reason I pay attention
• 36:13
  to any of this economic data and cycles and everything else are
• 36:16
  at post. The FED funds rate Futures, like
• 36:18
  why that's the fascinates me is because, you know, we're always
• 36:21
  focused hyper focused on the numerator BTC, which is, which
• 36:24
  is the important thing here. But from an exchange rate
• 36:26
  perspective, there's going to be times and asymmetric times at
• 36:28
  that, for the USD component of all, this is going to be the
• 36:32
  driving force. It's going to be the reason
• 36:33
  Bitcoin takes up ticks down and we've often see we saw that on a
• 36:37
  lot of 2022, right? So I mean today, Bitcoins up
• 36:40
  eight 10 percent equity. He's our, you know, mildly
• 36:43
  green, that's pretty encouraging to see and it shows someone of
• 36:46
  like a supply-demand mismatch at least locally, you know, maybe
• 36:51
  like sellers in aggregate are exhausted after getting
• 36:54
  absolutely pummeled over the last year but Bitcoin has ever
• 36:58
  since Global asset, right? As it's monetizing on when
• 37:01
  everyone's balance sheet around the world bitcoiners should
• 37:04
  recognize and I think even honestly be encouraged by the
• 37:07
  fact that Bitcoin is trading with global liquidity as the
• 37:11
  dollar strengthens. You know, and and on an
• 37:14
  aggregate, everybody short dollars in this financials, this
• 37:17
  current monetary system. And so as if for some reason the
• 37:20
  dollars, right, like just this basic math, like denominator USD
• 37:24
  is increasing the numerator. BTC is just all else being
• 37:27
  equal, right? And Bitcoin exchange rate drops
• 37:30
  a little bit. Like I think that's a natural
• 37:32
  and I think that's a good thing and it shows Bitcoins maturing
• 37:34
  and that you know there's gonna be a lot more liquidity that can
• 37:36
  flood into this thing as a monetary asset.
• 37:39
  But people were, you know, monetize bonds.
• 37:41
  People might ask equities He's right.
• 37:43
  And then, as now, bonds are sold off and equities are more
• 37:46
  expensive relative to bonds than ever, right?
• 37:50
  So people are still have a psych monetary premium for equities as
• 37:52
  like the store value. But now that's a right here.
• 37:55
  Like the interesting thing is that sand P has like an earnings
• 37:58
  yield right now this year, five percent but you can also get
• 38:01
  that risk-free risk-free as in you know the government is going
• 38:06
  to pay you by printing press or by force via taxation but that
• 38:10
  that's short-term steps plan. 5% to So stocks are now in this
• 38:13
  weird place where like they're down 20% from the highs but
• 38:17
  they're more overvalued relatively than they've been in
• 38:20
  decades. So like this whole kind of
• 38:23
  unwind I think has yet to play out in full.
• 38:26
  I think Bitcoin you know if there is some massive risk off
• 38:29
  Rally or risk-off downturn Bitcoins not going to be
• 38:32
  insulated, I think that's natural but could the bottom be?
• 38:36
  And of course you know 50 16k 15K like half the industry went
• 38:40
  bankrupt, right? Right.
• 38:41
  Like I didn't show up all my Chips in the middle at 16th and
• 38:43
  I'm totally fine with that. I got it back, right.
• 38:46
  So I think everyone's really focused on like this, the
• 38:49
  bottom. And, you know, like and that's
• 38:50
  fair, right? Like I would have loved to it,
• 38:53
  call it to the T, but I also think that, you know, we should
• 38:56
  be prepared for anything and if Bitcoin wix2 10K because, you
• 39:00
  know, the financial system blows up tomorrow.
• 39:02
  Like, that shouldn't change your position.
• 39:04
  All right. So like just having that ability
• 39:06
  to tolerate volatility to the upside and downside is it's
• 39:09
  something that you should have. If you have a long-term Outlook,
• 39:13
  Absolutely Dylan. One of the things that you
• 39:16
  mentioned, and I kind of want to double back on that, right?
• 39:20
  Which is in your mentioning, you said that there could be a
• 39:23
  potential contraction in 2023 and this is actually a similar
• 39:27
  question. I see dr.
• 39:28
  Jeff Ross and the chat I asked him this when he came on the on
• 39:31
  the pot a couple weeks ago. And you know what the way that
• 39:35
  I'm seeing it is rightly the what the, you know, the central
• 39:39
  Bankers have been telling us over the last couple months,
• 39:41
  right? Just it's going to be a soft
• 39:43
  Landing. Everything's going to be okay.
• 39:44
  But so far right you have the employment numbers.
• 39:47
  They were pretty solid they're pretty good.
• 39:50
  So I mean were they able to pull this off?
• 39:53
  Were they able to print this ungodly amount of money with
• 39:57
  absolutely no consequence or do you believe this is the Calm
• 40:00
  before the storm? And the reason I'm saying that
• 40:03
  is because I saw a tweet that you posted two images and it was
• 40:07
  fascinating, was like, yeah, the US economy is fine.
• 40:10
  Everything is going to be happening.
• 40:11
  You At the date since 2007. So of course, you know, we're
• 40:15
  not fortune tellers, we can't read into the future, but what
• 40:19
  does your gut tell you till in the Claire?
• 40:22
  Yeah, my gut tells me and I'm prepared for really any outcome,
• 40:26
  but I got tells me that we got some, we got some ugliness to
• 40:31
  turn through. I you know it's like the
• 40:34
  conversation has gone from our Landing to soft Landing to like
• 40:37
  no Landing no recession and I think and I am not not held
• 40:44
  accountable but, you know, put me in this Camp as well as
• 40:46
  thinking the downturn as theirs as a result of this kind of re
• 40:50
  ratchet higher. Interest rates and then you know
• 40:53
  the duration value of all these assets, right?
• 40:55
  When money was free on the cost of capital in real terms was -
• 40:59
  the value of everything else was in theory infinite it just
• 41:01
  didn't compute. So we have this Global
• 41:03
  everything bubble interest rates in the market, essentially
• 41:07
  forced the FED to tighten a short-term interest rates, kind
• 41:10
  of, you know, went to the moon because of this inflation.
• 41:14
  Right. And here we are and I think this
• 41:18
  isn't, you know, Max Payne. I mean for Bitcoin or Krypto or
• 41:21
  your favorite, you know, social media app, ticker, right Ike.
• 41:27
  The bottom could, you know, Wick, it could be very well in,
• 41:31
  but I think people should just look too.
• 41:33
  Similar analogy is whether it's 2,000, you know, 2008, whether
• 41:38
  it's the 2000 Tech, boom, Tech bust, whether it's the 70s
• 41:41
  inflation, right? And you should look at hike
• 41:43
  interest rates Cycles. You should look at SP and you
• 41:46
  can and you should like look at how long these things
• 41:49
  potentially take to play out. As well as like you know the
• 41:52
  kind of the crazy relative rallies from from the local
• 41:56
  bottoms that assets have right? That's indy500.
• 42:00
  Didn't-didn't bottom for 24 to 36.
• 42:03
  I think it was 30 months after the top and tech stocks and the
• 42:07
  S&P 500 would have 50 percent right?
• 42:09
  So it's the tech. Boom and wasn't even known as a
• 42:11
  real. Real bad reception and that some
• 42:13
  people hundred still fell 50 percent, right.
• 42:15
  So like I think it's just whether it's Bitcoin or not like
• 42:19
  you know Bitcoin went down, 80 75 percent.
• 42:21
  Right. Like certainly painful but I
• 42:23
  think yeah, mentally you should prepare for for, you know, a
• 42:27
  good amount of chop. I think we got some some real
• 42:30
  pain essentially and that in that the global economy to come
• 42:34
  and and the US will be at the relatively the best in the best
• 42:38
  position. Our Capital markets will be the
• 42:41
  best potentially and the dollars going to be relatively great
• 42:44
  place to be compared to all these other developed market and
• 42:48
  Emerging Market currencies. But the dollar will still be
• 42:51
  devaluing in real purchasing power terms and I think you know
• 42:56
  monetary repression Financial repression, you know, inflation
• 43:00
  above interest rates, even if it's 6% inflation and 5% or
• 43:06
  maybe they even, you know, get that CPI annual number down to
• 43:10
  34 percent. While their short-term rates are
• 43:12
  at 55 and a half, maybe I'd happens for a little bit but on
• 43:16
  a long enough time frame, they can't do that with that.
• 43:18
  The GDP at 100 120 percent. You can't you Have to get the
• 43:22
  real debt burdens down the CBO just came out today.
• 43:25
  Projecting you know that you to GDP 10 years from now to be at
• 43:29
  the same level right? So they're not even really
• 43:31
  projecting any grounds made up there just going to tack on
• 43:34
  another 10 trillion a debt right just create more money injected
• 43:38
  in the banking system and I think we're going to see that
• 43:42
  that that theory doesn't really work.
• 43:44
  Well it's not going to be it's not gonna be a flat linear line,
• 43:48
  right? Of productivity and debt like
• 43:51
  there. Kind of projecting on these
• 43:52
  models and the reality of this debt, overhang and Global debt
• 43:56
  levels and all demographics is going to kind of lead to some
• 44:01
  really nasty. I'm lines, like, we've already
• 44:03
  seen economic Cycles. Kind of, like, we did, we jacked
• 44:07
  the money full of the, the world economy, full of funny money, we
• 44:09
  didn't really even make it 18 months without that, that that
• 44:13
  kind of real economic activity turning over, right?
• 44:17
  Like, we still have a really hot economy and inflation terms.
• 44:21
  In nominal terms, but adjust that for inflation, we're not
• 44:24
  growing. This isn't growth, right?
• 44:25
  It's just it's you know, apathetic lethargic and we have
• 44:29
  an aging population of Boomers that are about to end.
• 44:31
  You know, all go into retirement and sit back on there, you know,
• 44:35
  on their yacht and their second home.
• 44:37
  While the Millennials don't own anything, right?
• 44:39
  So like there's really interesting Dynamic at play
• 44:41
  here. It's going to it's going to take
• 44:43
  a while but I think that whether I don't think a recession, a
• 44:47
  strong one is in the cards for 2023.
• 44:49
  I think that's honestly a story. That could could go into 2024
• 44:54
  and you know like like hold you hold Bitcoin.
• 44:57
  Have some stuff that it doesn't matter what the next 18, 24
• 45:00
  months of price action have, but like I feel very comfortable,
• 45:04
  having a whole large chunk of Bitcoin and a good chunk of
• 45:07
  dollars ready to buy Bitcoin or anything else and he's like, I
• 45:11
  think it's not it's not a kind of linear device debasement and
• 45:15
  that some points you have periods where the dollars
• 45:17
  actually you know Increase in purchasing power, in an
• 45:22
  asymmetric way, relative everything else, right?
• 45:24
  As a function of these delivery things as a function of a credit
• 45:26
  system, kind of unwinding. So that's kind of why I have a
• 45:30
  little both try to, you know, balance that those two.
• 45:34
  So, I want to pull up this this image because I think it's a
• 45:37
  good visual representation of the situation that you were
• 45:41
  explaining and and I think Lynn put it perfectly right?
• 45:46
  The US Treasury Department, actually published this and for
• 45:49
  all Listeners. Right.
• 45:50
  It has historical and projected and then it has a metric that
• 45:53
  says debt held by public. And it just it, dude, it's
• 45:57
  absolutely crazy, dude. So this is what you're talking
• 45:59
  about, right? Yeah.
• 46:00
  And that's that's basically mmt visualize that.
• 46:05
  I mean, that's that's a not a free market.
• 46:08
  That is the nationalization of everything and the sense
• 46:13
  essentially, the implementation of communist.
• 46:16
  I mean, because okay, if you think about what seven hundred
• 46:18
  percent, Debt to GDP is right. Like that means that for, you
• 46:23
  know, the populace creates 10 trillion, dollars of
• 46:28
  productivity. And there's seven seventy
• 46:31
  trillion dollars of debt to be paid off to the government
• 46:34
  itself, right? So so what is it?
• 46:36
  It's like an indentured servitude by your own
• 46:40
  governmental body, right? For the collective like like
• 46:45
  what is that Finance they financially that's like
• 46:48
  literally then implementation of top-down communism.
• 46:52
  That sounds like super super dark and maybe a little bit
• 46:54
  hyperbolic but like I think my my my response to that chart is
• 47:00
  that the US has opened Capital markets at least for now, right?
• 47:04
  Unless there's some drastic change and that the money is
• 47:06
  going to flow worth. Reinvest the guy.
• 47:08
  You should, you should pull up. If you think about Bitcoin Versa
• 47:11
  dollar ticker or really anything like everything is relative
• 47:14
  hair, you should pull up a chart of the the US dollar relative
• 47:18
  the Arjun Arjun time pay. So it's usda-ars I believe.
• 47:27
  And and look at the daily weekly monthly candles of this thing
• 47:30
  and it's actually crazy to visualize just this, this
• 47:34
  unbelievable debasement and I don't know if you can pull it up
• 47:37
  now or you have that prepared but it is it is just quite a
• 47:42
  amazing charcoal. Look at it was I mean it, you
• 47:44
  feel bad for the there's there's no drop.
• 47:46
  There's no drawdowns, right? It's just a steady dose of
• 47:49
  devaluation every single day. It's systematic political and
• 47:53
  the reality is their data is actually much better.
• 47:56
  Much better than the actual situation but to a less drastic
• 47:59
  extent. This I think of Bitcoin
• 48:01
  interacting with the dollar, right?
• 48:03
  It's obviously a lot more volatile Bitcoin has this kind
• 48:06
  of wild card in the room that anybody can flood to and
• 48:10
  oftentimes flood to it once which leads to these crazy crazy
• 48:12
  explosions but it's all relative game, right?
• 48:16
  So it's the dollar. They're literally telling you to
• 48:18
  your face, they're going to continue to print this thing.
• 48:21
  And so, you know, I think, natural economics, human
• 48:25
  incentives are To play a big, big force, and people are going
• 48:27
  to go where your money is treated best.
• 48:29
  Just like, look at that. It's just, it's just up only man
• 48:32
  and that even that did the daily chart looks the same.
• 48:34
  It's just like, literally there's not even a red candle,
• 48:38
  it's insane. It's absolutely wild.
• 48:40
  And then that reminds me of the I'm glad that you brought up
• 48:43
  Argentina, right? The recent Bloomberg article and
• 48:47
  what they were remember reporting this not too long ago
• 48:49
  like a couple weeks ago 95 percent inflation.
• 48:52
  Now it's up to 99 percent inflation.
• 48:54
  That's absolutely wild and What's really interesting also
• 48:58
  is that they obviously they went to the IMF, they wanted, you
• 49:01
  know, a debt deal and part of that deal the IMF was like hey
• 49:05
  we'll give it to you but you must adopt Yuma.
• 49:08
  You must be incentivize the adoption of Bitcoin in the
• 49:11
  country, dude, it's wild man. So like I don't know what do you
• 49:16
  think about the 99 percent inflation?
• 49:19
  The hostility from the IMF which obviously makes perfect sense.
• 49:23
  But what are your thoughts on all that?
• 49:26
  Yeah, I mean I think again, this is kinda to Circle back to what
• 49:29
  we said at the beginning. Like this is an individual's
• 49:31
  game and and you know there's there's certainly a level of
• 49:37
  competent, a financial literacy and technological, literacy
• 49:40
  required to, you know, adopt the coin in the self Sovereign way.
• 49:44
  But I can assure you that there a Bitcoin black markets just
• 49:47
  like they're in a Argentina not to encourage Black Market
• 49:50
  activity but they're not official dollar peso exchange
• 49:55
  rate you Just put on the screen. That's the official one, that's
• 49:58
  not the that's not the street price which is actually much
• 50:01
  worse, right? All right.
• 50:03
  And you know much much stronger for the pay, so we can for the
• 50:06
  dollar, that's the government, the Government rate, right?
• 50:08
  So inflation is actually much much worse.
• 50:11
  All right. So that's Teddy it, that the
• 50:12
  market phenomenon is actually create that perfect chart.
• 50:15
  It's the government literally just giving you the inflation
• 50:17
  data or the pressing data that's cooked, right?
• 50:20
  The official exchange rate. And so I think that, you know,
• 50:24
  people are going to adopt Quentin the self-serving way
• 50:27
  because I've talked to people that have done it in South
• 50:30
  America, I've talked, I've talked to people that have, you
• 50:32
  know, actively fled regimes or secured their wealth in, you
• 50:38
  know, emerging markets and all over the world, right?
• 50:40
  So I think, you know, it's an education thing obviously, you
• 50:45
  know, it's it takes a while back when still very young, but it's
• 50:48
  for certain people for families for companies.
• 50:52
  You know? It's a having something that is
• 50:55
  a liability. 82. No one is an extremely powerful
• 50:58
  thing and honestly, like still I'm pretty bullish on like the
• 51:02
  adoption of, you know, like for instance like tether on Tron is
• 51:06
  extremely popular is tether like the best thing for people to
• 51:09
  store all their families. I'll even know.
• 51:12
  But you know, these people want dollars, they want something
• 51:13
  that's, you know, stable to them on a day-to-day basis.
• 51:16
  I know the dollar purchasing power isn't stable but on a
• 51:18
  week-to-week day-to-day basis for, for for these people, it's
• 51:21
  extremely stable. And so they you know, that
• 51:23
  adoption I think is a bridge but ultimately You're talking about
• 51:26
  the rugs and the collapses earlier.
• 51:28
  I'm not saying tethers, bad or not.
• 51:30
  I'm just saying like there's a liability there, right there.
• 51:32
  They're issuing you this trusted, you know, token and
• 51:35
  they can freeze it. They can steal it.
• 51:37
  They can, you know, Take the Money and Run, right?
• 51:40
  It's there's a liability bacon there and I'll stable Queens
• 51:43
  have that model for now. Decentralized Solutions are
• 51:45
  attempting to be built but we're not there yet you know SATs on
• 51:48
  the lightning Network dollars on the lightning Network these Taro
• 51:51
  protocol. It's really interesting stuff.
• 51:53
  We don't really have the implementation of it yet.
• 51:56
  But I think ultimately Bitcoin on chain, but really, mostly
• 52:00
  lightning adoption quickly onboard users is, you know, the
• 52:06
  the kill not, you know, one of the killer apps for Bitcoin and
• 52:10
  we've just scratched the surface there.
• 52:12
  It's, I mean, we're really in year maybe one and a half of
• 52:15
  lightning being good enough to kind of actually operate on a
• 52:18
  meaningful scale and some would even say we're not even at that
• 52:20
  point yet, so that's going to go exponential and it's not even
• 52:23
  going to be exactly expressed Actually into the exchange rate
• 52:27
  at Elliot at first, right? And the same way that the
• 52:30
  grayscale are born. Michael sailor 5x the Bitcoin
• 52:32
  price, you know, with some leverage, Andy, John's in there,
• 52:35
  helping, obviously. But, you know, this, you know,
• 52:39
  millions and millions of people in developing markets,
• 52:44
  onboarding on the lightning. And, you know, somewhat kind of
• 52:47
  becoming familiar with Bitcoin as a medium of exchange and even
• 52:50
  potentially unit of account earning Bitcoins earning SATs.
• 52:54
  That's, that's what, you know. Why?
• 52:56
  This thing is going to win, is not because regardless of what
• 52:59
  the US does, regardless of what China does, like, people are
• 53:02
  utilizing this instrument, this, this engineering solution, and I
• 53:06
  think, I mean, you guys have a show on it every day, I talk
• 53:09
  about this every day. It's very much, it's very
• 53:11
  misunderstood. It takes a lot longer than I
• 53:13
  thought it was going to take that education and, you know,
• 53:17
  know a lot of people don't dive in and do 200 hours of reading
• 53:21
  and learning on something, once they become a little fascinator
• 53:23
  intrigued by it. The Bitcoin is the most
• 53:25
  convincing In that are, you know, all screaming at each
• 53:27
  other having late like have laser eyes like, yeah, they've
• 53:30
  we've done that due diligence the conviction is a, you know,
• 53:36
  natural response. But most people haven't, most
• 53:37
  people are like, listen speculative, internet money is
• 53:40
  cool things, you're telling me you're cool energy, markets, and
• 53:43
  inflation and all this Yahoo stuff that you don't really
• 53:46
  know. I'm a dentist.
• 53:47
  I don't really care about any of this stuff.
• 53:50
  I don't need to, I don't really want to invest my money.
• 53:52
  I want to save, right? And you're trying to, like,
• 53:54
  explain something to this. This person that is never even
• 53:57
  stepped inside the world. You're trying to explain.
• 53:59
  So it takes time. It's going to take.
• 54:02
  I think a little bit longer than we think but you know there's
• 54:04
  certainly a case where the gradually then suddenly aspect.
• 54:07
  Is that play here? The question is like where are
• 54:10
  we on that inflection point? I don't know, but I certainly
• 54:13
  want to be along for the ride and will be.
• 54:14
  So we will see ya man I'm being in the trenches with you.
• 54:19
  Now you mentioned something and it's honestly something that
• 54:22
  bothered me right? Which is specifically Trees that
• 54:26
  have Financial privilege. They have country that countries
• 54:29
  that have relatively stable, Fiat, currencies people are just
• 54:33
  not incentivize. You said it like your dentist,
• 54:35
  you just don't care. But what's really fascinating is
• 54:38
  when you speak to an Argentine, you speak to a Venezuelan, then
• 54:40
  you tell them about Bitcoin. It's like where do I sign up?
• 54:44
  This sounds like a phenomenal idea.
• 54:46
  That sounds like a great idea. So And I agree and Jeff Booth
• 54:52
  came on the show. I was like, Hey like like aren't
• 54:54
  you worried that this is happening and his response is
• 54:57
  fascinating Dylan. He said the people that are
• 54:59
  closest to the to the monopolies are the ones that, you know, are
• 55:03
  going to be the latest to wake up, like, they're not
• 55:07
  incentivised to wake up, they benefit from this system.
• 55:13
  Yep. Yeah, that's that's perfectly
• 55:15
  fine. You know, I there was, there was
• 55:19
  a certain there was like a part of me in that kind of the orange
• 55:22
  peel rabbit. The rabbit hole Journey, where I
• 55:25
  was like, you know, begging begging and pleading with others
• 55:29
  to explain this to them, you know to like regardless of who
• 55:32
  it was right. It like friends, family
• 55:34
  investors that I respected for and and I reach a certain point
• 55:39
  where I'm so willing obviously to talk through the case, you
• 55:43
  know, No help people understand my perspective or other people's
• 55:46
  views on this thing and why they would buy it or hold it or do
• 55:49
  XYZ with it. But you know, if you don't care,
• 55:52
  if you think Bitcoin is a scam at this point, like that's fine,
• 55:54
  right? Like big, yeah, exactly right.
• 55:56
  Bitcoin is a scam. You're finally right this time.
• 56:00
  It's crashing 20. And at like, and and they say,
• 56:05
  volatility is something that like, I'm completely fine.
• 56:08
  I've signed up for this, I've allocated accordingly.
• 56:13
  You should too. And if you think that right,
• 56:15
  allocation is zero, that's on you and and you know, I'm fine
• 56:21
  with that. I had I can accept that and you
• 56:23
  should accept the consequences of that because there's you know
• 56:27
  what that does is it does a tail probability here?
• 56:29
  And most bitcoiners think that it's the base case and not that
• 56:31
  Tails Tails scenario at all we're this thing becomes you
• 56:36
  know a global globally, dominant Reserve asset in potential you
• 56:42
  know. Unit of account for, for
• 56:44
  Baseline, value around around the world.
• 56:47
  There's a, there's a tail risk of that.
• 56:49
  If you, if you assign the probability zero, that's fine.
• 56:51
  I don't think it's zero and I think it's, you know, probably
• 56:55
  higher than most would like to think and so, and, you know,
• 56:59
  accordingly, I want to own some right?
• 57:02
  Like and describing, this is like a hundred percent sure
• 57:05
  thing, hyper bit quantization. You know, I think that's where
• 57:08
  you lose some people, at least, like, at least to come in,
• 57:11
  right? Not to come in, not trying to
• 57:12
  recruit you. I don't care if you buy Bitcoin
• 57:14
  or not but like if you want to understand the thing I think
• 57:17
  pitching it is like a sure bed is going to you know be worth
• 57:20
  that hundred trillion dollars is like probably the wrong
• 57:23
  approach. It's like it's it's I think it's
• 57:27
  you know, being somewhat bullish but you know, reasonable
• 57:30
  objective moderate in the in the pitch is little bit more
• 57:34
  effective and that's maybe at the bear Market phenomenon.
• 57:36
  Maybe it's like, you know, we should be Schilling just
• 57:38
  Relentless and that's opium to get people to scoop keep SATs
• 57:42
  but like I've taken with my Approach a little bit, I guess,
• 57:45
  over the last few years in regards to like the response to
• 57:48
  critics. Yeah, it did, it's definitely
• 57:51
  very frustrating for sure. And I do want to go down that
• 57:54
  opium route. I want to take advantage of the
• 57:56
  last couple minutes on the podcast, and you were talking
• 57:59
  about this potentially being adopted on a worldwide level and
• 58:03
  there's this great piece from Kathy Woods Arc.
• 58:08
  And she's talking about the bear case, the bear case, the base
• 58:12
  case. The bull case the bull case.
• 58:15
  One point four eight million base case. 682,000 are case 200
• 58:19
  a 258,000. These numbers just don't come
• 58:22
  from anywhere. She's making the case that
• 58:24
  Bitcoin would take a percentage of digital money.
• 58:28
  Institutional investment, seizure resistant assets,
• 58:31
  economic settlement, Network Emerging Market currency nation,
• 58:34
  state, treasury remittance asset corporate Treasury and of course
• 58:38
  the bear and the bull, the percentages vary.
• 58:41
  But what I find the most interesting is is the digital
• 58:43
  gold one and the bear case would be twenty percent, which is
• 58:47
  pretty high percentage wise and the bull one would be 50%.
• 58:52
  So I don't know if you had a chance to look at this dealing
• 58:54
  but you know, you were mentioning about Bitcoin
• 58:57
  potentially being, you know, adopted on a worldwide level and
• 59:00
  as you know, this is a good little graphic to pull up to, to
• 59:04
  speak about that. So, I don't know, man.
• 59:07
  What do you think of this? Is this pure hope IAM straight
• 59:09
  into our veins. Yeah, I think.
• 59:13
  The thing that I've learned is that, you know, to a certain
• 59:17
  extent priced like price targets.
• 59:20
  Fair value estimations Etc are great.
• 59:23
  You know happy to hear those and you know potentially some
• 59:28
  baseline scenarios but assigning a price and a timeline is for
• 59:32
  something that's volatile. You know this nascent to the
• 59:36
  upside and in a volatile upside and downside, right?
• 59:39
  Like in 2015 who could have imagined in their right?
• 59:43
  Mind that Bitcoin was going to touch 20,000.
• 59:45
  It's just, it was just inconceivable and, you know,
• 59:48
  subsequently, right? If you told someone in 20
• 59:50
  January of 2018 and I write it weird it from 20K to 15K, you're
• 59:55
  like, yeah, you know in 2023 Bitcoins going to be twenty
• 59:58
  thousand dollars if they blow it wrong, right?
• 1:00:00
  Like, and so that the, the wild swing of emotions is certainly
• 1:00:03
  it's like something but I'm sorry, I kind of I went off on a
• 1:00:08
  tangent and and forgot the purpose though.
• 1:00:11
  It's all good. It's all good.
• 1:00:12
  You're here. Being cautious and I think
• 1:00:15
  you're totally taking it, right. You're totally taking the right
• 1:00:18
  approach, you know? And you know you're saying
• 1:00:21
  because I completely agree. I think that price targets into
• 1:00:24
  the future, it's pure hope, IAM no one has anyone?
• 1:00:27
  No one has any idea what they're talking about?
• 1:00:29
  I just think it's interesting, maybe not So Much from the price
• 1:00:33
  anticipation aspect like if we put that aside but more so from
• 1:00:37
  the percentage of the the penetration, the penetration
• 1:00:42
  percentage rate, and I think that's what's really interesting
• 1:00:45
  to me, right? Specifically when it comes to,
• 1:00:47
  for example, nation state treasury, you know, zero one
• 1:00:50
  percent and 5 percent of the numbers she laid out digital
• 1:00:53
  gold, 20 40, 50 %, institutional investment, 12.5 6.5%.
• 1:00:59
  So I guess the question, I'm more responsible question for
• 1:01:01
  you. Dylan would be are those numbers
• 1:01:04
  even conceivable. Did you imagine a future where
• 1:01:07
  Bitcoin is a well-respected because it has to be two in
• 1:01:12
  order to get to those numbers? He's a well-respected,
• 1:01:15
  institutional investment. Do you see that?
• 1:01:17
  Because right now, we live kind of in this in, you know, in this
• 1:01:20
  moment in time where, you know, Michael sailor named bouquet
• 1:01:25
  lay, you know, they don't exactly look like they don't
• 1:01:29
  exactly. Look like their moves were
• 1:01:30
  intelligent. Of course, as bitcoiners were
• 1:01:33
  bias and we know they're going to be Vindicated eventually as
• 1:01:36
  number go up. Technology does his thing but I
• 1:01:39
  don't know man. What's your take on that?
• 1:01:44
  Yeah, I mean I think it's it's the it's just it's a global
• 1:01:49
  Capital flight sponge and capital flight not in a
• 1:01:53
  political dissident way but potentially in a political
• 1:01:56
  dissident way but in a in a systematic way it's like leave
• 1:02:00
  you think about all foreign exchange?
• 1:02:02
  If you think about, you know, dollars against Japanese Yen.
• 1:02:06
  It's a little 4X, a little different because like they both
• 1:02:08
  have moving exchange rates. So there's also kind of an
• 1:02:10
  exchange rate interest rate. Carry mechanism in those
• 1:02:13
  relative things. But essentially, right?
• 1:02:15
  Like if you think about the dollar, if you think about when
• 1:02:17
  you're talking about, you know, Global debt to GDP Dynamics, you
• 1:02:20
  know, why debt to GDP even matters?
• 1:02:22
  And why do we see like these Global Wars break out at these
• 1:02:26
  high inflection points of global debt to GDP?
• 1:02:29
  And then war is coming, like somehow reset the table, and why
• 1:02:32
  does that stuff happen in monetary systems?
• 1:02:35
  Why a - are resets happen at these Global inflection points
• 1:02:39
  and it's because Dad systems are two unsustainable.
• 1:02:42
  Right? It's just they reach a point
• 1:02:44
  where they can't be service. So that something has to be done
• 1:02:46
  to revalue the real burdens and we're in the middle of the three
• 1:02:50
  valuation with this kind of this in dose of inflation, they
• 1:02:53
  mapped this out in 2014 15. That IMF came out.
• 1:02:57
  They wrote a paper, they're like, how do we get this debt
• 1:03:00
  levels down there? Like, oh, well, a steady dose of
• 1:03:02
  inflation and you're basically it's a wealth transfer from the
• 1:03:04
  creditors who are the creditors people that buy the long-term
• 1:03:07
  debt, right? So this is the game that's being
• 1:03:09
  played and Bitcoin is just sponge as Just this exit opt-out
• 1:03:13
  vehicle, you know, whether it's like, you know, your DC a
• 1:03:17
  saying, on on Swan, or strike or river or you're, you know,
• 1:03:21
  you're in an emerging market and you're literally just, you know,
• 1:03:25
  selling freaking, you know, you're selling food on the side
• 1:03:29
  of the road to support your family and you're storing and
• 1:03:32
  blue wallet in an open-source manner.
• 1:03:33
  Like this is all this is all happening and it's all at a
• 1:03:36
  relative game. So to bitcoin you know like a
• 1:03:39
  fourth of the funny thing is like a 40 percent compound.
• 1:03:42
  Well, growth rate is like the bear case, right?
• 1:03:44
  Like / that in half, right? Like / /, the the, their bare
• 1:03:48
  case Arc by 75% and and have it be a 25 percent the size of that
• 1:03:54
  of that bear case prediction? What was the bear case like a
• 1:03:56
  couple under thousand? Like even if it was like a you
• 1:03:59
  know like oh your estimate Bitcoin at the worst worst case
• 1:04:02
  and then you know lower that by a factor of four even though the
• 1:04:06
  worst case is still a good 10-15 percent kegger like oh Okay.
• 1:04:10
  So I just, you know, all I need to do is just like a little bit
• 1:04:14
  of it. Protect my, like, my tail risk
• 1:04:17
  here, which is like the system, I know, and I'm comfortable with
• 1:04:21
  and the world. I know from an economic
• 1:04:23
  standpoint, even if you don't know economics, you know, I just
• 1:04:26
  have a 401k or pension or something that I promised when
• 1:04:28
  your son like you should own a little bit of Bitcoin in case of
• 1:04:30
  that those entitlements. You think you have or if big fat
• 1:04:33
  zero, but Niko I my Social Security's taken every every
• 1:04:36
  week from from part of my income.
• 1:04:39
  And I just I just imagine the money just giving birth to see
• 1:04:44
  any of it. I know I know that I'm an I'm at
• 1:04:47
  you know I'm not necessarily peace with that but I understand
• 1:04:50
  that's that's the reality of my situation.
• 1:04:53
  It's stolen. It's burned is no I'm never
• 1:04:55
  going to see it. You know it's supposed to be
• 1:04:57
  going to the roads but it's really being funneled through
• 1:04:59
  Ukraine in a money-laundering operation.
• 1:05:02
  Like I'm at peace with that. I understand that I will say
• 1:05:05
  that and maybe that makes me. You know this Rogue political
• 1:05:10
  Political person. But like, you know, I don't
• 1:05:12
  think the radical View at all. So so my response to that is
• 1:05:15
  that all right? I'm going to own one of the only
• 1:05:17
  things the world that I think I can actually own and I like I'm
• 1:05:19
  really comfortable as a mathematics person like I
• 1:05:21
  approach Bitcoin from a math and finance lens.
• 1:05:25
  First and all the technological stuff I dug into and came to
• 1:05:28
  understand afterwards. But as a math person, like I'm
• 1:05:31
  very, very comfortable after, you know, reading some elliptic
• 1:05:35
  curve cryptography and reading smart people's opinions on it.
• 1:05:39
  And learning about encryption and learning about, you know,
• 1:05:42
  the having in the difficult adjustment, all these things,
• 1:05:43
  and how this thing works, and learning a little bit about
• 1:05:46
  software and what running a node means and what mining means
• 1:05:49
  being like. Okay, wait so this is probably
• 1:05:51
  the only place in the world where like I can you know, hold
• 1:05:55
  what I own and where it can't be interrupted where I can't be
• 1:05:58
  corrupted, like that's there's really nothing else, I can
• 1:06:02
  defend gold with my gun. Right?
• 1:06:04
  Like, that's okay. That's good.
• 1:06:06
  That's not good. If I wanted hop around the world
• 1:06:08
  really easily, right? So, like Bitcoin, just like for
• 1:06:11
  me, you know, I'm a privilege Western ego.
• 1:06:14
  Like, I have a brokerage account and I can short bonds, if I want
• 1:06:18
  to or long NASDAQ stock, but like, you know, it's like the
• 1:06:24
  person in Argentina, can't buy NASDAQ I can't get dollars, even
• 1:06:28
  they get to get dollars, the real rate, like, what can they
• 1:06:30
  do? And there's, you know, I think
• 1:06:32
  there's like there's a singularity here with like
• 1:06:34
  Bitcoin as, you know, one of the more important ideas of our
• 1:06:37
  time, the wild, the wild bullish price targets are fun.
• 1:06:41
  And I've honestly been a proponent and champion of some
• 1:06:44
  of those crazy ludicrous Targets in the past and I still am but I
• 1:06:48
  think that's the price. Despite being a you know an
• 1:06:50
  analyst I post a lot about markets and financial stuff in
• 1:06:53
  price. I think that's like one of the
• 1:06:55
  probably lesser. Seeing things is like projecting
• 1:06:58
  out. Like how many socks do I own
• 1:07:00
  more and like what will this price be in the future 10
• 1:07:02
  million. Oh, I'm Gonna Be Rich, I'm gonna
• 1:07:04
  buy a jet ski in a villa, you know, versus like, okay.
• 1:07:08
  Like this is the probably one of the most important ideas, ideas
• 1:07:10
  of our time, I should own some, I should be able to eloquently
• 1:07:13
  described the bull case of it. I should be able to, regardless
• 1:07:17
  of who's my listener. Because there's there's there's
• 1:07:21
  always an angle where someone could probably understand it if
• 1:07:23
  they're if they're not completely like close-minded and
• 1:07:26
  have. And of cognitive dissonance.
• 1:07:28
  So I think that's the important thing.
• 1:07:29
  I think, you know, the arc framework is interesting, they
• 1:07:32
  certainly been battered. Arc is no longer, you know
• 1:07:37
  there's some there's some really smart mines there.
• 1:07:39
  So I respect what they do and I think you you you said it.
• 1:07:44
  Perfectly Dylan. Came for the money stayed for
• 1:07:47
  the revolution. I think that's that's what we're
• 1:07:50
  all. Living through nowadays anyways.
• 1:07:52
  Dylan the Claire, it's been a pleasure honor like always,
• 1:07:55
  thank you so much. For for coming on simply Bitcoin
• 1:07:59
  IRL. And I mean there's an obvious
• 1:08:02
  question, but I do it with every guest.
• 1:08:04
  What are you working on now days?
• 1:08:05
  And where can people find you online?
• 1:08:07
  Yeah, I am doing a few different things.
• 1:08:11
  I'm with the climatic scene because yank reading the
• 1:08:15
  newsletter Bitcoin magazine Pro could find that if Accord
• 1:08:18
  magazine Pro.com, we're putting putting together some stack
• 1:08:20
  releases covering more of the finance aspect of it.
• 1:08:24
  Also kind of doing my own thing with 21st paradigm.
• 1:08:26
  Can find me at Dillon, the Claire dot info or to my Twitter
• 1:08:30
  at dealing with Claire underscore.
• 1:08:33
  You know, I also have been trying to Noster.
• 1:08:36
  I don't know if it's the best place to find me there, but it's
• 1:08:39
  a pretty exciting that app and Twitter.
• 1:08:42
  You know, I am bullish on Twitter.
• 1:08:45
  I like Twitter, love Twitter, spent way too much time on there
• 1:08:48
  for the past few years, but a little bit pessimistic about it.
• 1:08:51
  Staying power. So we'll see how it goes.
• 1:08:53
  But I mean like I really appreciate you guys having me on
• 1:08:56
  It's been fun to rip and hope the listeners.
• 1:08:59
  Enjoyed, enjoyed it a bit. Thanks Dylan.
• 1:09:01
  Appreciate you coming on guys, that was another episode of
• 1:09:05
  Simply Bitcoin IRL. If you enjoyed it, make sure to
• 1:09:07
  smash that like button and we will see you tomorrow back for
• 1:09:10
  the live show, but if you want more Bitcoin content and head
• 1:09:12
  over to the swan Bitcoin Channel, they just dropped a new
• 1:09:16
  podcast for dr. Jeff Ross and James lavish so
• 1:09:18
  definitely check that out. Love you all and see you
• 1:09:21
  tomorrow.