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Episode 335: What Happens After You Reach the Summit? · The Growth Project

• 0:00
  You.
• 0:03
  Welcome to the Growth Project, a podcast brought to you by amylose. We are in studio today, doctor Drew Brannon, joined by Doctor Corey Schaffer. Good day to you, Doctor Schaffer. Yes, sir. Good day to you.
• 0:17
  Corey, what do we have on tap today?
• 0:20
  Yeah. So we are in the midst of, major season and professional golf. Milton, I a little while back now, and I recorded, podcast on, Rory. Rory McIlroy, for those of you who are not golf followers.
• 0:36
  Finally, sort of completing his Everest, as we'll reference it, and others have, by completing the career Grand Slam, winning at Augusta.
• 0:46
  The thing that he hadn't done over the course of his very, very illustrious career. So we broke that down.
• 0:53
  And just looked at that through through our lens and through our perspective. But some, some things have happened in golf since then. We had the PGA Championship not far from us, out at, Quail Hollow in Charlotte.
• 1:04
  Scottie Scheffler does Scottie Scheffler things from wins.
• 1:07
  Not a ton to talk about there. You know fast forward to Father's Day weekend. And us open notoriously the hardest of the four majors. Intentionally sort of set to challenge, players in a way that some of the other majors don't necessarily do. So. And at Oakmont, one of the notoriously like most difficult tracks there, there is and, it, you know, you kind of sprinkle in some weather and it was set to be like a really interesting, tournament and weekend, and it really was.
• 1:43
  And so, it ends up concluding with, JJ Spohn, first time, major champion winning. And there's, there's so much that we could get into just from that. Because there was a lot of, like, really interesting storylines. And, you know, what he was able to do on that Sunday, was pretty incredible. But the focus of today, at least as a starting point, is going to go back to Rory.
• 2:10
  Because his behavior, I would say post masters, over the last couple of months has been really, really interesting to just observe. Again, even just as a casual golf fan or sports fan, you probably hear, you've probably heard over the past couple of months at some point I'm talking about Rory and not so much for his play.
• 2:33
  His play has been fine. I would say, like if you look at what he's done since the Masters, I, you know, took note of this, the Zurich Classic, which is a team event where he teams up with Shane Lowry like one of his best friends on tour, both from Ireland. Good buddies. They take T12 truest, his championship T7 top ten out to the PGA, T 47 okay and at Quail Hollow there was this big the media made this probably bigger than what it was.
• 3:03
  Because it was him. But his driver, which he had used at the Masters, failed, test like it was no longer conforming to standards. So he wasn't allowed to use his driver. Oh, now, everybody, of course, took that and blew it up like, oh, well, Rory was you. He cheated to win the Masters and all this stuff.
• 3:25
  It's like, well, Scottie Scheffler in the same exact week his driver failed the same test. But nobody talked about it because he hadn't just won the Masters and you know stuff. So you know they blew it up. They made it a big story. And I think of course that was I'm sure that was frustrating for Rory because on you know play average he makes a cut T 47.
• 3:45
  He goes on to the RBC Canadian Open and is cut. So missed misses the cut doesn't play on the weekend and comes back to the US open a 1019 not a bad performance. Yeah okay. Given the conditions and everything. But it's really here where I think you saw some of what's happened over the last couple months start to just bubble up and boil over.
• 4:05
  His some of his interactions with the media recently haven't been great for a guy who, to be honest, I think a lot of people have come to love Rory because there's, like, an honesty about him and a vulnerability about him. And he always carried himself in such sort of a respectful, like, professional way. And recently it just seemed to kind of take a turn.
• 4:27
  He's very short. He's skipped out on more media sessions than I feel like he ever has before. And there was almost this air of just like it. I think a lot of people interpreted it as like, now that I've done what I needed to do in this. Like, I don't know you anything. Is almost I think how people sort of felt about it.
• 4:48
  And then just a couple of his comments even from the US open. He mentioned how going back to the Masters, he's, he has been in a little bit of a malaise. He said quote, I alluded to it in my pre-tournament press conference. You don't really know how it's going to affect you. You don't know how you're going to react as such.
• 5:09
  I wouldn't say life altering occasion, but at least something I've dreamt about for a long time. I alluded to the fact that, yeah, I have felt a little flat on the golf course afterwards. So essentially admitting and he he later on, commented on, like, he didn't really care if he even made the weekend at the US open.
• 5:31
  Like he was almost disappointed that he made the cut and had to put up with two more days like at Oakmont. So again I'm just trying to paint this picture for given where he was. And again it's sort of like he, he climbs Everest. Yeah. And since then, just observing behavior and stuff, like, he's like, the burden seems heavier now.
• 5:54
  Yeah. Strange is going on because. And I think that you're exactly right. And we can connect this, I think, to more broadly this isn't necessarily about golf. Right. We're just using this as the vehicle, to sort of support, you know, some conversation here. But,
• 6:08
  I think a lot of people assumed, sort of speculated that, like, man, once he clears this hurdle and that burden is released, we are going to see Tiger Woods level golf from him, like just absolute domination because he he's completely freed up.
• 6:26
  There's no pressure. You know he's going to go on to win every stinking major now like and it doesn't mean that he still can't. Right. We're still only a couple months post. You know the Masters okay. And he's going to play for years to come. But in the short term here in the media, it's just been really interesting to see his response to this stuff.
• 6:44
  So that's sort of just a, a step into the conversation. Where do you want to take it from there? Yeah, no, I think that's a really interesting timeline. You just took us through there of we had this kind of this massive I think Everest is the right term moment for him in and frankly, I mean, yeah, we want to always be mindful of the fact that plenty of people that are listening to this podcast are not big golf people, but they've heard of the Masters.
• 7:12
  You know, like everybody's heard of the Masters. And so that's such a significant accomplishment. But I think that's that's where I think we can make this conversation even richer. And more interesting is if you zoom out. So zoom out from golf for just a moment and think about, instead of just thinking about golf, let's think about the performance driven nature of the world that we live in, you know?
• 7:39
  And so then we can think about like performance industries. And some of those are more obvious than others. But to a large extent, every industry is a performance industry. Like everyone's. Everyone's competing and pushing for some type of result. Whether you're in sales or whether you're trying to kind of drive, numbers in a certain direction to meet goals or meet plans, that's very real.
• 8:02
  Whether whether you're in like the hospitality industry. Well, guess what? You need to effectively bring guests into your your hotel or your restaurant or your cruise ship or whatever it might be, and you have goals for that. You know, if you're an educator, you have standards and expectations and goals for the way your students will progress and demonstrate understanding.
• 8:22
  So everything has a performance component to it. And I think what what we really are talking about and what we see through the vehicle in the example of Rory, is we have an individual who had his sights set on a massive, massive milestone, and fortunately for him, he was able to achieve it. And the the the events that have transpired in the psychology that seems to be surfacing since then has been really interesting compared to what you would have thought.
• 8:56
  And that's not unique to him and it's not unique to golf. So I think it I think it's triggers and sets us up for a really interesting conversation about when you're when you're in a performance context of some type, whether it's golf, or it's sales or it's education, whatever it is, how do you navigate that over the long haul and how do you deal with, whether it be milestones or just the rigors of it?
• 9:24
  How do you do it? Great question. I was I was hoping would you've read the answer there? No. And I mean, I think again, that's that's sort of a great, starting point for our conversation. You know, something that we talk about and teach quite a bit. It comes back to maybe to a degree. How is Rory sort of defining success for himself within his career?
• 9:46
  Yeah, right. Because if the answer to that all along, or at least in recent years when he has admitted again he's done such a great job in recent years, which is why he's become so endearing to fans of, just being honest and vulnerable. And in described how, like, how badly he wanted to win the Masters and how it really was like maybe a few years back, a more immature version of him almost showing up with all that pressure and sort of over trying and trying to force things on the golf course.
• 10:16
  And as we know, especially in that sport, that's usually not a way to get can't do that in golf. That's just not how that sport works. So he hit he missed cuts like he he sort of notorious. He had kind of played bad there. You know so so there's that. But then he finally does it.
• 10:33
  And it actually presents a really interesting question like was that this thing that obviously is just hey, what a great accomplishment. And it brought me a ton of joy. Sort of like just redemption or was it just this relief and it kind of ended this chapter of his, his life and career that had just become so emotionally taxing because he attached his feeling of success and potentially happiness.
• 10:58
  Yeah. To one result. Yeah. So let's okay, let's break that down using a little bit of kind of this Everest framework because that's, that's a lot of what you're saying there I think Corey of for him certainly that stage of his career Everest became the Masters one because it's the Masters. And two, it was his way of finishing off the Grand Slam.
• 11:21
  Right. So if you're not familiar with that, it's winning all four majors, which I don't recall. Maybe you know this. How many players in history have done that? Only a handful. We're talking about like legends of the game. Tiger or Jack Nicklaus.
• 11:32
  Less than ten, right? So yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's maybe six. Yeah. At the top of my head, I can't remember, which is, you know, the elite athlete of the elite.
• 11:40
  And so, yeah, there's a, there's a concept in construct that we want to introduce our listeners to that you might be familiar with it. You might not be, but it's it's called the arrival fallacy. And what it essentially means, very simply put, is it's a tendency we can all have really a misconception that once we achieve a certain something, whatever that might be, you know, and I think that's something for Rory that we're talking about was obviously the Masters, but once we achieve a certain something, it will lead to overwhelming happiness and fulfillment, not just that day, but in an ongoing way.
• 12:25
  And, you know, the way this often sounds via the person is they tell themselves. They sometimes also tell others. Once I do x, then I'll be happy, then I'll be fulfilled. Then I'll have the monkey off my back, whatever it is. So Corey, what is the research say when it comes to this whole, this paradigm we set up of the kind of once I do this deal.
• 12:48
  comes down to your perception of success. And so again, if it's, there's research that's been done and this is a study I believe we describe on the podcast. And so I'll come back to it and I think it'll answer your question. The research done on, former Olympic medalist, okay, compared to the general population and just looking at the life span and health expect or, life life expectancy, basically like your likelihood to be alive.
• 13:13
  Yeah. At every age along the lifespan. Okay. So comparing Olympic medalist to the general population and a couple of really interesting from interesting points from that research. Number one bronze medalist seem to be the best off in the long run. Like an insignificant difference. And silver medalist seem to be the worst off worst off in the context of those Olympians.
• 13:35
  They hugged the line essentially, just like General population members, which is fascinating. And the researchers, essentially from this, they they sort of speculated that, perceived, success rate related to outcomes in life, in their case, in sport, may like negative perceptions, may adversely affect health like over the life span, which is fascinating. Oh yeah. Because if you think about, you know, these Olympians are probably some of the fittest, healthiest people in the world peaking and probably Olympians in the 20 to 30 years of age range.
• 14:14
  And yet this shows that 30, 40, 50 years down the line, they're potentially no better off than you. Right? Right. And again, it's because their perception of especially those silver medalists is I failed. Yeah. I was so close right I mean you you might only get one Olympic shot. Yeah probably probably to get that close. And depending on what event we're talking about we're talking about, you know, a quarter of an inch or one hundredths of a second, right?
• 14:43
  I came up short. And so they walk away from their Olympic experience, despite the fact that they're the second best in the world. Imagine being second best in the world at anything. And yet they walk away from it feeling I failed. Yeah. Contrast with the the bronze medalist who's kind of like, hey, I'm just happy to be here, right?
• 15:01
  Yeah. I'm I'm one place away from not being here. Exactly. There's a gratitude now for I recognize how close I was to not being here at all. And that sticks with them across the lifespan. So I think in some context, that's what we're talking about.
• 15:15
  No, I think that's absolutely part of it.
• 15:17
  And then I think that, what this specific construct really shows us in the research is that more often than not, that thing that we held out there in, in such an esteemed and lofty way, although it is still a tremendous accomplishment, it doesn't deliver like we've convinced ourself it will. And it's not that it isn't a worthwhile accomplishment, it's simply that nothing can deliver like that.
• 15:47
  No. And the term I think that fits here as well with, the arrival fallacy is like the on a treadmill. Yeah, right. The, the assumption that sort of external things, but we're material possessions, whatever. Like that. Those things, contribute larger to our overall happiness than they actually do. Yes. And it's true that when you experience those things, I imagine, like the elation, the joy and what he felt, after winning, like, absolutely, there's going to be this big uptick in his happiness.
• 16:17
  Yeah. And I'm sure there was exactly this, I'm saying, but it probably still, still has some of that. Oh, man, I bet you I bet you within within a week maybe it kind of come back down to earth and realized. And I think that's kind of point, right? Like realize that, hey, maybe that didn't do for me what I thought it was going to, what I thought it would.
• 16:39
  And simultaneously, his problems never went away. Correct. You know. Correct. You know, so it was don't go away. And so again, the you know, the fallacy there, it called that it's almost like the assumption is remember playing video games as a kid. You reach a certain like level okay. And once you've reached that level like now let's say your character dies.
• 17:00
  Like you don't have to go back to level one. You can start right back at level four. It's almost like that. Like, hey, now I've unlocked this. I'm never going to experience anything below that. Right? Like, man, it's just not the case. It's not how it works. Right? So your problems don't go away. And then I think the other thing that, that I know for a fact can happen because I've had these conversations with people is people in their mind begin to do a little bit of kind of a cost benefit or a weighing of all I put into this in order to achieve this, relative to how I feel now.
• 17:31
  And you think about sometimes like the carnage that can be in your wake as a result of your pursuit of whatever this thing is. And then to your point, maybe within seven days or so, the joy is, although not a zero, certainly not what it was on the day of the accomplishment. And it can be this overwhelming realization of like, whoa, I, I gave up this and this and this in pursuit of this thing in like I already feel kind of normal again.
• 18:01
  I mean, if you don't mind it, you've experienced this in college. Yeah. Totally. Right. And that's like how long I've seen it. How long did it stay with you. At what point did it feel like. Well I'm kind of just back to normal. I, I tell you the funny thing for me that. So, you know, we fortunate enough we're going to last championships and, so you know Ohio State won this past year obviously.
• 18:27
  But shortly after Ohio State won the championship, I, I couldn't remember who had won the year before that. And then it hit me. I was like, oh, wait, that's how people think about us. You know? It's like, like I remember when we won because I was a part of it. But like, that's so true of, like, people even remember, they remember who won.
• 18:48
  And like, even right now I can't. Who did win before Ohio State Michigan okay Michigan won. That's right. That's right Michigan won. But I couldn't remember. Right. And you know like I have literally been on the bus ride the day after the national championship to the airport to fly back home with, you know, everybody and heard people say things along these lines literally.
• 19:10
  And of course, I'm not gonna talk about it or anything, but like, say things to the effect of, gosh, you know, this isn't quite what I thought it was going to be. But even the day after, I mean, this exact topic actually was in the news not not too long ago. Go back, you know, four months, five months.
• 19:28
  After the Super Bowl, Eagles win the Super Bowl. AJ Brown posted to his personal like Instagram you know, story or something to his account. Basically like. Winning the Super Bowl is not what I thought it was. Yeah it was within. It was within. It was I think it was before the parade. It was like 48 hours. Yeah.
• 19:47
  Like man, it was, it was incredible. But I think he realized how quickly it was like, I guess so. But now what was great was what he did acknowledge within that was I think what I learned is I just enjoy the chase. I enjoy the journey. You have much. And that's what the research ultimately show is like go pursuit.
• 20:08
  Whether or not you feel fulfillment is less about the outcome, the end result, the finish line, and more about the journey, you know? And if you enjoy the journey, then it'll feel fulfilling in the end. Know if you don't, regardless of the outcome or sort of the result in the finish line, either you're left feeling pretty hollow, right?
• 20:28
  And let's let's acknowledge too, we're we're making like, neither you nor I have had any recent conversations with Rory that I'm aware of. Like, it's been a minute. Yeah. So so we are may, you know, we're making some leaps here. But having said that, we've also worked a lot in the space with elite athletes. And like, we know what the how these things go.
• 20:49
  But I think if nothing else, certainly a worthwhile takeaway to to hit on here for just a moment is that whatever version of this is transpiring for you in your life right now where you are pursuing this thing, just be sure you're doing a healthy inventory along the way specifically to what you might be giving up, what type of costs you might be enduring as a result of this.
• 21:13
  Because what we're telling you and what the research says is that thing, although perhaps worthwhile, is not going to deliver what you have told yourself it will. It's not going to happen. And that is in no way meant to kind of diminish or minimize whatever your thing is. But Everest's don't deliver what people sometimes think they will. Yeah, you're absolutely right.
• 21:36
  And I think in some ways this we can spin this conversation, more broadly just to intrinsic extrinsic motivation. Right. What what is this potentially revealing about, you know Rory. Yeah. And to be clear I like intrinsic motivation is good for the long term. We, we want some of that. But extrinsic motivation isn't bad. Any any great athlete performer, salesperson, whatever they'll tell you or what they have is a good blend of both.
• 22:04
  Yeah, right. They're they're absolutely motivated by the extrinsic and external stuff. Like winning. But there's also inherently like just a love of what they're doing. Yes. And I think some of what Rory, has kind of admitted here and seems to be struggling with is maybe related to this motivation. It very well could be. And I mean I think that's a great point too because there's this connect motivation to being in a performance heavy, performance driven industry over the long haul.
• 22:33
  It is tough. It's hard. And you know it's interesting you to have both seen this. If we took here's a golf example. Almost every collegiate golfer you see wants to turn pro. They all want to turn pro for. And there's a number of reasons for that. But you and I have both seen plenty of cases where those guys can't handle that life.
• 22:59
  Because of how hard it is. Yeah. And what you know so while they're in college they say things like this man I hate how like class and all this stuff kind of gets in the way of me practicing as much as I want to practice and stuff. And then guess what? Once you clear out all that stuff and they have like all the time, they need to practice, they don't want to practice that much.
• 23:17
  Yeah, yeah. You know, they don't want to go to the golf course at 8:00 in the morning and stay till 6:00 at night. They don't want to do that. Yep. So my point being obviously that the life of performers, professional performers is one that almost always leads to some form of burnout. And if you don't have the intrinsic love that you're talking about you won't make it.
• 23:41
  Yeah. It's almost like this. The pursuit of the Grand Slam of him kind of climbing his Everest. And actually I've got some quotes I got, I looked up a couple of things here for us, by the way. So pause for a second. Career grant, Grand Slam, I was right, there are only six players who have done it.
• 23:59
  Wow. Okay. Gene Sarazen, Ben Hogan, Gary Player, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy. So for those of you, for those of you who are screaming in your car, at the number or the people, there you go. But Rory said, quote, look, I climbed my Everest in April, and I think after you do something like that, you've got to make your way back down and you've got to look for another mountain to climb.
• 24:22
  And so I think, you know, you're right. It's he's sort of just found himself, in the valley between two mountains and maybe hadn't quite set his mind on what was next for him. So it's interesting because The Open Championship, the fourth major, it's coming up in July. It's in his home country of Ireland, at a course that he's very, very familiar with.
• 24:46
  And essentially he's already said, like, if I can't get up for that one, you know, like I think alluding to maybe there are bigger fish to fry here. But he said, like, I just need to get myself in the right frame of mind to feel those feelings again. So, there's some admission there of I just haven't been in the right frame of mind.
• 25:05
  That's really interesting. There's a lot in there, and those quotes, there's a whole lot in there because he's also now kind of set up a he set up an uncontrollable that he needs to, take shape or otherwise. He's already kind of told himself he won't he won't feel like himself. Sure. Which is dangerous. And again, here's the the wisdom of Rory.
• 25:26
  He goes on and these are these are quotes. He said, if I can't get up for an Open Championship at home, then I don't know what can motivate me. I just need to get myself in the right frame of mind. I probably haven't been there the last few weeks. So again, he admitted, I hadn't been in the right mindset, haven't been motivated, I said getting home and having a couple weeks off before that, hopefully feeling refreshed and rejuvenated will get me in the right place again.
• 25:46
  So at least there's an acknowledgment of like, maybe he does feel burnout. Yeah, just exhaust like emotionally probably mentally exhausted about, you know, anything else from the pursuit. And then even the, you know, sort of the after effects of that sort of the comedown of it and the media attention and like all of it. Yeah, just all of it.
• 26:06
  I can't imagine how much, you know, despite the fact that I've now climbed my Everest. You know, there's more attention, there's more everything. Maybe that's a little bit of all this feeling. And we need to be sympathetic, too, because neither of us have yet won the Masters. Well, I don't know what that's like to navigate the whole post life effect of that, but let's go back to the the mountain comment real quick, because there's something that I think needs to be said here.
• 26:34
  Connecting that to the success points you were making earlier, this highlights why it is so critical that we define success broadly in in multiple categories, because back to his comment of I've got to go identify the next mountain. What could that be? You know, you know, it's like, I like be careful with that, right? No, I'm with you.
• 27:03
  And that's like you said earlier, you can only be motivated to play. Yeah. If you set, you give yourself a mountain to climb. Yeah. This is really interesting. Which in this is true for, you know, he's not the only one who has found and met great success in their professional lives. There are a bunch of people listening to this podcast right now who have had, tons of success in their professional lives.
• 27:29
  And if you're only going to define success through the opportunities presented to you in your professional life, you're in trouble. Which is why what I said a moment ago about how you have to define it broadly in, in multiple categories. That's where you open yourself up to being able to have goals and pursue things and feel motivated across the landscape of your life, because in the near term, like the guy's won the Grand Slam or he's he's won all the Grand Slams, like there's no like, oh, here's a mountain I haven't thought about quite yet.
• 28:03
  That's right around the corner. That's a really like he's got to find another gear. No you're right because again at it again to be clear setting goals and setting these sort of mountains for yourself is not inherently bad right. Like it's fine to be motivated in pursuing something, but the point here in which you're making, I think, is like, okay, the Open Championships going come and go in a month.
• 28:24
  Yeah. Then what? Yeah, exactly. Right. Then what are you you're just back down in this crevice in this valley of or this malaise of just like, you know. Well, I guess I get it. Well, Rory, there's not another major until next April. Yes. So what are the. What does that mean about the next x number of months in your life or the end of the golf season?
• 28:43
  Or, like, how are you at home? You know, with your family, like. Yeah. Right. Like, I think that's your point here is if it's just so specific to this one thing, and that's sort of what's dictating your defining how successful you are or how motivated you feel or how happy you are. Man, that's a slippery slope.
• 29:01
  Yeah. If I can only get a, you know, a booster shot from a like watershed type golf accomplishment when it comes to my motivation, my happiness I'm very happy. Extremely vulnerable. Exactly. There are only going to be so many options. Yes that and even and again the point is like even if you you climb the Everest again, it's gone pretty quick.
• 29:23
  It's going to be even. It's going to be quicker. Right? I mean, the second time the guy wins the Masters, I got a feeling it'll be less fulfilling than the first for sure. So yeah, there's just a lot of really fascinating stuff here that I felt was worth talking about. And I hope, you know, again, our listeners can connect with some of this stuff.
• 29:39
  I think you've done a good job of applying it back more broadly to, again, this isn't just about golf. This is about life. Everybody should be able to relate to this, especially if you're in any type of, performance industry. So any any final thoughts here as we kind of push to a close? I think it's just a matter of like hopefully as as folks have listened to this, it's given them, some good questions to think about, some good pulse checks that they can reflect on that we all need.
• 30:09
  Right. And and you're right. You know, we got to kind of thread the needle on this one. We aren't in any way discouraging going after big goals like that's how we work. Yeah, that's absolutely what we believe in. But we also believe in comprehensively thinking about what success means to you and having, you know, a diverse notion of what that is.
• 30:36
  Yeah. And I think what I would add to that is making success something that is more controllable. Yes. So that it becomes sort of a daily choice, a weekly choice, let's say if you're Rory, as opposed to, again, like something that I can only feel. Yeah, a few times a year. Yeah. Right. So the difference between like, hey, today was a success because I feel like I had a great attitude and I gave my best effort and I stayed focused on the golf course.
• 31:04
  I had fun out there, like, whatever it was, any that's that's within your control. So at the end of the day, every day you can say hey today I felt successful today. All right. So as we wrap up I guess just a final challenge for the listener for me would be to take us back to that construct concept we discussed of the arrival fallacy.
• 31:21
  And, you know, check yourself a little bit on that. Like do you have one of those right now? And what are you what are you putting into your processes in in an effort to accomplish that? Just be sure you're going to feel good about it in the end. And, be willing to make some adjustments. Okay. And with that, we will, move toward a close.
• 31:44
  Here we are thankful for our listeners, as we as we always like to ask, get over to, Apple Podcast or Spotify. We appreciate your reviews and feedback of how we can continue to grow the growth project and, better deliver for our listeners. So till next time, thanks so much.